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gar26lw
01-12-2018, 03:36 AM
I want to be able to plug in AO, procedurals etc in to that slot to mess with the surface without messing with my underlying albedo or resorting to composites. Especially as there is no undo! so you will loose changes to values altered in the nodes and surfaces when searching for "the look".

its really handy for stylized stuff too, now things are less flexible and you have to play by the rules instead of being able to break them. Insert matirx meme here :D

I already put in a FR but posting here to see if anyone else GAS :)

thanks

UnCommonGrafx
01-12-2018, 03:43 AM
I'll say it:
No; learn what's been given.
You can fake it in another way. Learn that.

The renderer, as has been presented, is a new path, a new paradigm. Let go of the old, learn the new.

Or easier, use 2015. It's always available for "the old way".
Robert

Sensei
01-12-2018, 03:53 AM
I will make new TrueArt's Node Library with everything that has been removed..


I want to be able to plug in AO,

If you want entire scene AO get Global Materials 2018 http://globalmaterials.trueart.eu
add Standard Material, set luminosity 100%, the everything else 0%,
plug Tools > Occlusion to Color in Standard Material,
set Environment Color to White. Like this:

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=139380&d=1515754860
139380

UnCommonGrafx
01-12-2018, 03:57 AM
There ya go!

grabiller
01-12-2018, 04:19 AM
I want to be able to plug in AO, procedurals etc in to that slot to mess with the surface without messing with my underlying albedo or resorting to composites. Especially as there is no undo! so you will loose changes to values altered in the nodes and surfaces when searching for "the look".

its really handy for stylized stuff too, now things are less flexible and you have to play by the rules instead of being able to break them. Insert matirx meme here :D

I already put in a FR but posting here to see if anyone else GAS :)

thanks

The concept of the Diffuse slot transposed to the Principle BSDF shader and PBR rendering is that your "Diffuse map" acted simultaneously as a Mask *and* another Material with different characteristics partially occluding - sit on top - your original Material (your Diffuse map previously embedded the mask and some part of the other Material characteristics, which was far less flexible than the new approach).

For instance, if you used a "Diffuse Map" to more or less simulate a dusty surface, then now with the new approach, simply create a new material "Dust" and mix it with your original Material through some mask (your original diffuse map or any map, a procedural texture, a weight map, etc..).

It is a bit more work but as you can see this is much more powerful and flexible, actually.

gar26lw
01-12-2018, 04:23 AM
I'll say it:
No; learn what's been given.
You can fake it in another way. Learn that.

The renderer, as has been presented, is a new path, a new paradigm. Let go of the old, learn the new.

Or easier, use 2015. It's always available for "the old way".
Robert

I hate comments like this. this is what I hear - "hey I'm fine, my workflow isn't impacted, everything's perfect, there can't be any improvement to the software, screw your workflow buddy!" I say that with respect and no offence meant.

maybe you don't get what I am looking to do or why i want to do it. If we followed this path there would be no Dpont nodes and filters for a start, cos, they aren't needed, right? ;)

- - - Updated - - -


I will make new TrueArt's Node Library with everything that has been removed..



If you want entire scene AO get Global Materials 2018 http://globalmaterials.trueart.eu
add Standard Material, set luminosity 100%, the everything else 0%,
plug Tools > Occlusion to Color in Standard Material,
set Environment Color to White. Like this:



yeah, I've been teetering on getting it but I am not sure I can take a surface input and globally override that part of all surfaces, like in shadermiester. Is that possible?

gar26lw
01-12-2018, 04:25 AM
The concept of the Diffuse slot transposed to the Principle BSDF shader and PBR rendering is that your "Diffuse map" acted simultaneously as a Mask *and* another Material with different characteristics partially occluding - sit on top - your original Material (your Diffuse map previously embedded the mask and some part of the other Material characteristics, which was far less flexible than the new approach).

For instance, if you used a "Diffuse Map" to more or less simulate a dusty surface, then now with the new approach, simply create a new material "Dust" and mix it with your original Material through some mask (your original diffuse map or any map, a procedural texture, a weight map, etc..).

It is a bit more work but as you can see this is much more powerful and flexible, actually.

ok thanks I will give that a go and see how it works out. thanks for the tip :)

Sensei
01-12-2018, 04:29 AM
yeah, I've been teetering on getting it but I am not sure I can take a surface input and globally override that part of all surfaecs, like in shadermiester. Is that possible?

If you want to override just one surface, or one object, you don't use Spread Global Materials tool, but manually add "intercepting node" to the surfaces that you're interested in. After that only they will show up in global Node Editor. and the rest will be controlled by LW normal node editors.

UnCommonGrafx
01-12-2018, 04:31 AM
Well, I tell ya,
Actually your history is incorrect. Without Lightwave, there would be no dpont material to be had as we know it. He has creative juices such that we really don't know what he does in his life or whether we already enjoy the fruits of his labor. But I digress.

I have two names on here, this one and [email protected] You may need to augment your "attitudinal hearing": it's not serving you well.


The comment was delivered to be heard as such, "There's a lot more being offered with the new system. Don't be so quick to dismiss it. It really has everything you want and more once you get to grips with it.
Give it a shot, Friend. Let's Wave!"


It's been three plus years we've waited for this. I waited a lifetime to see Lightwave .9; it was so much to learn I went back to Imagine. I know that every iteration of software can and needs improvement, as well that I have to learn/unlearn some things to make way for the new. As the saying goes, "Don't be a Luddite!" So, I endeavor and encourage you not to be either.

Enjoy your day.
Robert

Sensei
01-12-2018, 05:04 AM
"There's a lot more being offered with the new system. Don't be so quick to dismiss it. It really has everything you want and more once you get to grips with it.
Give it a shot, Friend. Let's Wave!"

Robert, he cleared stated AO. So he basically wants to plug Occlusion output to Diffuse Shading input in Make Material and plug such material to surface. To have AO pass. You never used AO in your scenes? That's the way you do it, to have AO in material.

Now workflow requires clearing the all Standard Materials settings, setting Luminosity to 100%, and plugging AO to Color.

RebelHill
01-12-2018, 06:05 AM
Now workflow requires clearing the all Standard Materials settings, setting Luminosity to 100%, and plugging AO to Color.

No it doesnt, you can create a custom buffer.

CaptainMarlowe
01-12-2018, 06:12 AM
Nice ! Thanks for the tip.

gar26lw
01-12-2018, 06:30 AM
No it doesnt, you can create a custom buffer.

yes i had a crack at that and it’s good but you then need a way to comp the render and it doesn’t support that. node filters good for that. personally i preferred the shader override as it would give a bit more fidelity.

one thing regarding occlusion. miss the squared falloff and such from dp ao. possible with node network?

Sensei
01-12-2018, 06:34 AM
When I am rendering AO, I want backdrop color to be solid white, to not have anti-aliasing between object's edge and environment..

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=139384&d=1515763782
139384

RebelHill
01-12-2018, 06:43 AM
So... set your backdrop colour to white. The fact that the BG appears black in the buffer itself is of no consequence. If you just rendered a AO surface (not buffer) against a white BG, and used the alpha to cut away the BG, you'd have the same result as the buffer method.

Sensei
01-12-2018, 07:02 AM
So... set your backdrop colour to white.

Backdrop color is respected by final render (regular materials).
For AO (like I showed in the above screen-shot) it's not. It's solid black all the time.

Isn't the whole point of render buffers, to not have to rerender?



The fact that the BG appears black in the buffer itself is of no consequence.

Of course it has. It's used by anti-aliasing procedure in renderer. I showed it by red arrow.. How could you miss it?

I already made feature request to add a way to initialize buffer values by user..



Let's check it:
Which one of these three do you want to use as AO pass?
http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=139387&d=1515765237
139387
(adaptive off just for AO pass, visible edge AA between env and obj, final render uses 8)

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=139386&d=1515765237
139386
(adaptive on for AO pass, 32 samples for everything (so 4x longer render), visible edge AA between env and obj)

It's very strange AO buffer looks "sort of" good inside of VPR (except this AA edge between env and obj), but in final F9 render, it's looking like on the above screen-shots, basically crap..



http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=139385&d=1515765237
139385
(adaptive on 8 samples, no edge AA between env and obj)

gar26lw
01-12-2018, 07:04 AM
The comment was delivered to be heard as such, "There's a lot more being offered with the new system. Don't be so quick to dismiss it. It really has everything you want and more once you get to grips with it.
Give it a shot, Friend. Let's Wave!"
Robert

oh yeah, i’m getting into it and this is why i posted. dropped my initial render times from purchase of 2018 by 60-75% and also why i ask about this slot as i want to use the principal material with the same flexibility as the old std material.
if you take a look at the modo pbr material you’ll se it has that slot. have a look at unreal:
https://support.allegorithmic.com/documentation/download/attachments/144998459/ue3.png?version=1&modificationDate=1467147159592&api=v2


also check this out:

http://mentalraytips.blogspot.com.au/2008/11/joy-of-little-ambience.html?m=1

ok, let’s wave :)

cheers

gar26lw
01-12-2018, 07:08 AM
So... set your backdrop colour to white. The fact that the BG appears black in the buffer itself is of no consequence. If you just rendered a AO surface (not buffer) against a white BG, and used the alpha to cut away the BG, you'd have the same result as the buffer method.

that brings up a good point. it would be nice to be able to define a backdrop for reflections and one for lighting. ok it’s not real but it’s great for cheats :)

samurai_x
01-12-2018, 07:20 AM
I'll say it:
No; learn what's been given.
You can fake it in another way. Learn that.

The renderer, as has been presented, is a new path, a new paradigm. Let go of the old, learn the new.

Or easier, use 2015. It's always available for "the old way".
Robert

1. Good advice for every artist. So why do people not want unification? Lol. Let go of the old, learn the new.

2. Bad business plan to tell people to stick with lightwave 2015 if they don't like 2018. :D I actually read this a lot in other places when people crit lw 2018.
After the initial adopters who bought lightwave 2018 immediately after it came out, is it still selling well?

MichaelT
01-12-2018, 07:27 AM
Speaking of 2015.3 maybe they should still offer it on their page (Given this version is a new paradigm and all) as an unsupported version at a reduced price.

RebelHill
01-12-2018, 08:14 AM
Isn't the whole point of render buffers, to not have to rerender? Of course it has. It's used by anti-aliasing procedure in renderer. I showed it by red arrow.. How could you miss it?

I didnt miss it, youve misunderstood what I meant. Simply having a backdrop there in final render, doesnt mean that the edge goes without antialiasing... look at the alpha, its quite clear it still does. You just cant really see it on account of the white BG. If you use the buffer, you also have a BG buffer, combine that with your AO buffer, and you have the same result as if youd only done final render against white BG, no need to rerender anything.


that brings up a good point. it would be nice to be able to define a backdrop for reflections and one for lighting. ok it’s not real but it’s great for cheats :)

You can. Thats what the speherical map option in reflection is for.

01-12-2018, 08:41 AM
1. Good advice for every artist. So why do people not want unification? Lol. Let go of the old, learn the new.

2. Bad business plan to tell people to stick with lightwave 2015 if they don't like 2018. :D I actually read this a lot in other places when people crit lw 2018.
After the initial adopters who bought lightwave 2018 immediately after it came out, is it still selling well?

1. It is for computer artists. If you are a sculptor or painter, of course not. Tricks from 1000 years ago still apply. Perhaps, even, someone has figured out how to get those tricks into a computer.
2. I am actually offering advice to another, as you seem to be to me. I am not trying to run NewTek's business, just use their tools. Your axe against them in this regard is not mine and I don't want it.

Appreciate the conversation.
Robert

grabiller
01-12-2018, 09:40 AM
oh yeah, i’m getting into it and this is why i posted. dropped my initial render times from purchase of 2018 by 60-75% and also why i ask about this slot as i want to use the principal material with the same flexibility as the old std material.
if you take a look at the modo pbr material you’ll se it has that slot. have a look at unreal:
https://support.allegorithmic.com/documentation/download/attachments/144998459/ue3.png?version=1&modificationDate=1467147159592&api=v2


also check this out:

http://mentalraytips.blogspot.com.au/2008/11/joy-of-little-ambience.html?m=1

ok, let’s wave :)

cheers

Using Ambient Occlusion this way in Unreal is a cheat because Unreal does not do path-tracing. It just helps - when possible - to be closer to a "PBR Look" and compensate for the lack of precision of SSAO.

In your case, I don't understand what you are trying to do. You want to use the new PBR Shader (pBSDF), yet add Ambient Occlusion on top of it (so longer render times because you are doing twice the job as a path-tracer already does AO intrinsically) which is "cheating" (nothing wrong with that but in this case: why !?).

If that so then why don't you simply use the Standard Material instead of the pBSDF ??

It is like you bought a brand new electric car and then trying to figure out how you will make it work with gasoil.

Or did I missed a point or something ?

Dan Ritchie
01-13-2018, 10:44 AM
Sorry for not catching up on the rest of the post, but my understanding of the AO channel is for use with textures such as normal maps, that cannot have real ambient occlusion of their own. It lets you fake in some dark crevices in areas like between bricks, and etc. Am I correct?

grabiller
01-13-2018, 12:40 PM
Sorry for not catching up on the rest of the post, but my understanding of the AO channel is for use with textures such as normal maps, that cannot have real ambient occlusion of their own. It lets you fake in some dark crevices in areas like between bricks, and etc. Am I correct?

Not sure if you are answering to me but that's not the point, I'm well aware what is and how can be used a AO pass/channel, perhaps I did not phrase me previous message correctly:

My point was why using the pBSDF new Material and try to make it work like the Standard Material in order to obtain a AO channel, instead of simply use the Standard Material, the goal being to cheat PBR anyway ?!

Dan Ritchie
01-13-2018, 03:09 PM
I'm asking what it is and what people want it to do.

grabiller
01-13-2018, 10:43 PM
I'm asking what it is and what people want it to do.

Ambient Occlusion has been invented at ILM back in the days of "Pearl Harbor" around 2001 in order to enhance the realism of their rendering processes using IBLs (environment maps).

This is very well explained in this paper, by Ben Snow:
http://renderwonk.com/publications/s2010-shading-course/snow/sigg2010_physhadcourse_ILM.pdf

samurai_x
01-13-2018, 11:33 PM
1. It is for computer artists. If you are a sculptor or painter, of course not. Tricks from 1000 years ago still apply. Perhaps, even, someone has figured out how to get those tricks into a computer.
2. I am actually offering advice to another, as you seem to be to me. I am not trying to run NewTek's business, just use their tools. Your axe against them in this regard is not mine and I don't want it.

Appreciate the conversation.
Robert


Point was whenever someone crits lw 2018 or points to a missing feature especially about the new renderer, like this one, or ambient, etc, the lw fanboy's immediate response is go back to lw 2015 and use that since you don't get lw 2018. Not saying its you. :D
Kind of dumb really. Fewer upgrades, less cash flow, slow pace of development like we have now.

Just my two cents.

UnCommonGrafx
01-14-2018, 12:26 AM
My point is, and was, it's to be learned anew.


So many have said zbrush has an ugly interface yet many have endeavored to do amazing things despite it.

In this example, some/many/one/a few have now leaned how to do this technique in 2018. Which also was the point.


I am one of'em, so it is me. hehe I don't have a problem with that. Always have been.
Robert

gar26lw
01-15-2018, 12:15 AM
Using Ambient Occlusion this way in Unreal is a cheat because Unreal does not do path-tracing. It just helps - when possible - to be closer to a "PBR Look" and compensate for the lack of precision of SSAO.

In your case, I don't understand what you are trying to do. You want to use the new PBR Shader (pBSDF), yet add Ambient Occlusion on top of it (so longer render times because you are doing twice the job as a path-tracer already does AO intrinsically) which is "cheating" (nothing wrong with that but in this case: why !?).

If that so then why don't you simply use the Standard Material instead of the pBSDF ??

It is like you bought a brand new electric car and then trying to figure out how you will make it work with gasoil.

Or did I missed a point or something ?

yeah I guess it seems weird.

I want to use the PBR materials as they are easier to setup and great for lots types of surfaces but I also want to be able to adjust the parameters and bend the rules a bit to get a desired look.

That look might not be physically correct or real world but might be the look that I am after fro a particular project.

Not all LW output is for photorealistic stuff. I use it for creating UI elements in games as well as actual renders of scene and game assets. So I would like to capitalize on the new shading and lighting system, while retaining that flexibility. (You may also have more realistic surfacing but it might be more stylized, like the movie 300)

Here is an example from 2015.3 with shadermiester acting as a global adjustment to all materials via its expose surface node. You can see I am pushing Dponts AO (way better with linear, squared etc falloffs) into the diffuse. Now I could put it into the colour, in this case but I prefer to put into the diffuse slot and leave the colour alone as I want to adjust the colours independently for each surface, especially if there are textures and procedurals on each surface.

Using shadermiester, I can get a quick comp in the render, add the edge node, colour bleed etc without needing to resort to buffers and passes or placing nodes into every surface and trying to mass edit and manage them which would be a total pain.

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=139448&d=1516000462
139448

you can do the same thing in modo

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=139447&d=1516000275
139447

gar26lw
01-15-2018, 07:19 AM
btw, I'll just add there that there was the Ambient setting in the renderer in 2015.3 and below that is/was incredibly useful when rendering UI icons and such.
Yes, not realistic, not accurate for PBR but people use Lightwave differently and this was a VERY useful feature for easy setups for UI work; also for pre-viz work of NPR and stylized CG/Games. Some wavers (non on this forum) consider it redundant but I would argue that it is not so. Fast pre-viz of productions and ideas was one of THE feathers in Lightwaves cap. It is something else that I wish had remained in 2018. Personally I used Lightwave to previz many ideas for those kind of projects and Ambient was very handy.

gar26lw
01-15-2018, 07:37 AM
You can. Thats what the speherical map option in reflection is for.

yes, i meant globally from the backdrop options, see modo.

grabiller
01-15-2018, 08:16 AM
@gar26lw
Right, I understand what you are doing, and it makes sense yes. But, except for the missing Ambient feature perhaps, you already have the tools to do what you want.

You can't complain about the pBSDF material not letting you do what you want because that's the point of the pBSDF material: The "principle" has been carefully designed - by Disney btw at first and it is now in Houdini, Lightwave, etc.. - especially for artists going through the PBR route while shielding them from producing non-PRB results with technically wrong settings. It allows them to concentrate on the Art, without worrying too much about the technicalities.

So understand it is a bit embarrassing to hear someone now asking for a broken, previously carefully designed PBR "shielded" pBSDF material, just for customization purpose ;)

gar26lw
01-16-2018, 07:20 AM
from the blender www

"Cycles is Blender’s ray-trace based production render engine.

Unidirectional path tracing with multiple importance sampling
Multi-core CPU rendering with SIMD acceleration
GPU rendering with NVidia CUDA & AMD OpenCL
Multi-GPU support
Unified rendering kernel for CPU and GPU"

"Cycles Shading
PBR - Physically Based Rendering
Node based shaders and lights
Principled BSDF
Production tricks
Open Shading Language (CPU only)"

https://www.blender.org/features/rendering/

love this experimental build section:

https://builder.blender.org/download/