PDA

View Full Version : Surface Editor annoyance in 2018



Nicolas Jordan
01-02-2018, 09:38 AM
It appears that all the objects surfaces are expanded instead of collapsed by default in 2018. When I open a scene that has many objects there are huge lists of surfaces to scroll through that have to be manually collapsed for each object. Is this intended or just an oversight? These were all collapsed by default in 2015 when opening a scene.

It would be nice to have a small button to toggle expand all or collapse all and in my opinion would be better to keep them collapsed by default.

gar26lw
01-02-2018, 01:50 PM
it also needs the filter by scene/object added back in. it was removed.
so you can edit the same material on multiple objects like they are one.
removing that feature made the ux worse.
the only way to do this now is use the search.

Ma3rk
01-02-2018, 03:29 PM
I don't have 2018 yet but does the Shift-Click option to select surfaces Camera or Perspective view still work? Only in VPR mode in 2015.

Skonk
01-02-2018, 03:42 PM
Shift + Click in VPR works.

BeeVee
01-02-2018, 06:37 PM
Hold ctrl when clicking on an arrow and open or close all at once, hold alt and click and it will open the one you clicked on and close others. All in the docs ;)

B

Nicolas Jordan
01-02-2018, 07:41 PM
Hold ctrl when clicking on an arrow and open or close all at once, hold alt and click and it will open the one you clicked on and close others. All in the docs ;)

B

Thanks, sounds good to me! I haven't had time to go through all the docs yet but I have read through some of them.

tburbage
01-02-2018, 10:28 PM
Ctrl+LCLICK on the disclosure triangles will toggle the sub-lists, either all open or all closed.
Alt+LCLICK will "solo" a specific sub-list.

pixeltek
01-05-2018, 10:22 PM
Since we are talking about the surface editor annoyances, I installed 2018 yesterday. The preview panel button is non-functional. The other three buttons at the top of the surface editor are fine. For now it's back to LW 11.6.3. Can't work that way. What am I doing wrong?

DogBoy
01-06-2018, 04:16 AM
Since we are talking about the surface editor annoyances, I installed 2018 yesterday. The preview panel button is non-functional. The other three buttons at the top of the surface editor are fine. For now it's back to LW 11.6.3. Can't work that way. What am I doing wrong?

The preview button works here. It either sets the main view to preview or a floating panel.
I quite like the ability to only see the object you are working on when previewing, and to be able to tumble the view around.

pixeltek
01-06-2018, 09:58 AM
Here is what I get. I hope that you can see this, the preview button is non-operational. I keep trying, but this is how it comes up every time.
Since it seems to be working for others, I feel that it has to be something that I am doing wrong.

MarcusM
01-06-2018, 10:16 AM
Here is what I get. I hope that you can see this, the preview button is non-operational. I keep trying, but this is how it comes up every time.
Since it seems to be working for others, I feel that it has to be something that I am doing wrong.

Strange... under VPR you should have Surface Preview.
Or Add Viewport (Floating Window) and there Surface Preview.

pixeltek
01-06-2018, 10:31 AM
That may be so, and I will try that as soon as I get back home, but should it not work at any time? That's they way I see it. Having to go to VPR, while that may be a valid assumption, is not the way it is described in the on-line manual, if you know what I mean. I'll get back to you on this.

DogBoy
01-06-2018, 10:33 AM
Here is what I get. I hope that you can see this, the preview button is non-operational. I keep trying, but this is how it comes up every time.
Since it seems to be working for others, I feel that it has to be something that I am doing wrong.

Wait a minute. you're in Modeler aren't you? This is a Layout only feature, as it uses VPR, thus it is greyed out in Modeler.

MarcusM
01-06-2018, 10:42 AM
Wait a minute. you're in Modeler aren't you? This is a Layout only feature, as it uses VPR, thus it is greyed out in Modeler.

Exactly :)

pixeltek
01-06-2018, 04:31 PM
Damn it! I knew it was something that I did. It's working, although once I was in VPR, I didn't know how to get our of it. Cleared the scene, that did it.

Although, I have to add this. For years I had been creating and identifying my surfaces and their characteristics in Modeler, and then refining things, as needed, in Layout. By removing that option (in my opinion of course, only) from Modeler, I think they increased the divide between Modeler and Layout, rather than to bring them closer together. So, as far as I am concerned, I have to use Modeler to create the object, and then go to Layout to attach the surface characteristics. I liked having that ability in Modeler and found that really helpful. But that's just me, a hobbyist at best, not a pro. You guys may have a totally different workflow, I get that. And I may be the only one lamenting the absence of the very convenient preview window in the Surface Editor in Modeler.

Thank you very much for the help. Somehow, and it was just because of a decade old habit, I clearly read what I wanted to read, and not what was actually written. My wishful thinking overrode the facts.

jeric_synergy
01-06-2018, 04:59 PM
It appears that all the objects surfaces are expanded instead of collapsed by default in 2018. +SNIP+

It would be nice to have a small button to toggle expand all or collapse all and in my opinion would be better to keep them collapsed by default.

Thank god they're finally open by default!!!! H8d having to open them Every Damn Time b4.

wingzeta
01-06-2018, 05:01 PM
Damn it! I knew it was something that I did. It's working, although once I was in VPR, I didn't know how to get our of it. Cleared the scene, that did it.

Although, I have to add this. For years I had been creating and identifying my surfaces and their characteristics in Modeler, and then refining things, as needed, in Layout. By removing that option (in my opinion of course, only) from Modeler, I think they increased the divide between Modeler and Layout, rather than to bring them closer together. So, as far as I am concerned, I have to use Modeler to create the object, and then go to Layout to attach the surface characteristics. I liked having that ability in Modeler and found that really helpful. But that's just me, a hobbyist at best, not a pro. You guys may have a totally different workflow, I get that. And I may be the only one lamenting the absence of the very convenient preview window in the Surface Editor in Modeler.

Thank you very much for the help. Somehow, and it was just because of a decade old habit, I clearly read what I wanted to read, and not what was actually written. My wishful thinking overrode the facts.

On the bright side Open GL works way better in modeler now. You can even turn normal maps on, so you can now get your surface close in modeler, using the actual model, instead of the little ball, and then refine in layout with VPR.

pixeltek
01-06-2018, 05:14 PM
wingzeta, thanks. It will take some time to adjust my way of doing things. Not too old (yet) to learn new ways. VPR, and I had never used it before, is pretty impressive, I give you that - and quick. My easy go-to in Layout had been F-prime, for the longest time, although it has its limitations, as you probably know. And at times I even used F-prime for my final output (I only post stuff to my website or use it for business cards). Just fun stuff, nothing to earn money with. However, after this pleasantly surprising encounter with VPR, I have to say, I will use it routinely after this. Seems very accurate as well.

DogBoy
01-06-2018, 05:16 PM
Damn it! I knew it was something that I did. It's working, although once I was in VPR, I didn't know how to get our of it. Cleared the scene, that did it.

Although, I have to add this. For years I had been creating and identifying my surfaces and their characteristics in Modeler, and then refining things, as needed, in Layout. By removing that option (in my opinion of course, only) from Modeler, I think they increased the divide between Modeler and Layout, rather than to bring them closer together. So, as far as I am concerned, I have to use Modeler to create the object, and then go to Layout to attach the surface characteristics. I liked having that ability in Modeler and found that really helpful. But that's just me, a hobbyist at best, not a pro. You guys may have a totally different workflow, I get that. And I may be the only one lamenting the absence of the very convenient preview window in the Surface Editor in Modeler.

Thank you very much for the help. Somehow, and it was just because of a decade old habit, I clearly read what I wanted to read, and not what was actually written. My wishful thinking overrode the facts.

Yeah, I can see where you are coming from, but for me I've usually done the majority of texturing in Layout, where i can see what will happen went lit. Sure, I'd do rough placement in Modeler, but without lights and camera it was basic at best. As far as Modeler is concerned, nothing has really changed so there is no reason to change your flow really.

gar26lw
01-06-2018, 05:22 PM
Damn it! I knew it was something that I did. It's working, although once I was in VPR, I didn't know how to get our of it. Cleared the scene, that did it.

Although, I have to add this. For years I had been creating and identifying my surfaces and their characteristics in Modeler, and then refining things, as needed, in Layout. By removing that option (in my opinion of course, only) from Modeler, I think they increased the divide between Modeler and Layout, rather than to bring them closer together. So, as far as I am concerned, I have to use Modeler to create the object, and then go to Layout to attach the surface characteristics. I liked having that ability in Modeler and found that really helpful. But that's just me, a hobbyist at best, not a pro. You guys may have a totally different workflow, I get that. And I may be the only one lamenting the absence of the very convenient preview window in the Surface Editor in Modeler.

Thank you very much for the help. Somehow, and it was just because of a decade old habit, I clearly read what I wanted to read, and not what was actually written. My wishful thinking overrode the facts.

no, you are not the only one and i donít see what difference it makes being pro or not. still a valid user.

i have the same workflow and feel the same way. the preview ball should be in there.

pixeltek
01-06-2018, 07:03 PM
Nothing more sinister in mind that those who make living with LW might well have an entirely different workflow and preferences. However, I agree, not that it should matter. Something that I considered a useful and convenient function has, for some reason, been eliminated.

Yup, valid user for a very long time, since the days of LW 5, when Newtek still was able to afford a booth at Siggraph �� and stage one heck of a presentation. Those were the days. Now, with most of the main players gone, or bought out, the show seems more like an Autodesk display platform. Ahem...sorry...drifted off there for a minute.

gar26lw
01-06-2018, 07:30 PM
Nothing more sinister in mind that those who make living with LW might well have an entirely different workflow and preferences. However, I agree, not that it should matter. Something that I considered a useful and convenient function has, for some reason, been eliminated.

Yup, valid user for a very long time, since the days of LW 5, when Newtek still was able to afford a booth at Siggraph �� and stage one heck of a presentation. Those were the days. Now, with most of the main players gone, or bought out, the show seems more like an Autodesk display platform. Ahem...sorry...drifted off there for a minute.

as i say, imho, your view and experience is just the same and just as valid as some pro. possibly more so as the pro might get stuck in their ways and someone more casual, for lack of a better word , may find a lot more of the ux issues and trip ups in process.

this version seems to be the apple version of lw, with things being hidden and eliminated so it looks better or is deemed unneeded.some form over function in a few spots and some complexity added that makes things harder for everyday use.
imho, lightwave needs a focus on ux more than any new tech or feature. that focus would of course, add a few features :)

best to just add in a feature request for bits missing or changed. i am and will add a lot more. put my time where my mouth is, so to speak. that feedback agent, if enacted upon by the devs, is the best feature added to lightwave this cycle. imho.

pixeltek
01-06-2018, 08:25 PM
Not to beat this issue to death, but it should be brought to their attention. It may be an oversight, a quirky change for some reason, based on someone's idea of what they think we need or want, or a technical issue, that permits no other possibility. If they can address it and give us that preview window, just the old style functionality, no more, in Modeler, it would be definitely a useful and welcome change from where I sit.

jwiede
01-06-2018, 08:32 PM
Saying "just do all your surfacing in Layout" sounds great until you realize that the UV editing support is in Modeler.

This is not as trivial an issue as some here suggest, particularly for folks whose surfacing relies on UV-mapped textures.

pixeltek
01-06-2018, 08:39 PM
Great point. I hope that someone from the staff is reading this or will be made aware of the issues. The software is just out and that's the time when most of the problems are discovered. So, those in the loop should be paying close attention.

DogBoy
01-07-2018, 04:05 AM
Saying "just do all your surfacing in Layout" sounds great until you realize that the UV editing support is in Modeler.

This is not as trivial an issue as some here suggest, particularly for folks whose surfacing relies on UV-mapped textures.

No one is saying "do all your surface editing in Layout" or saying it's a trivial issue. You do post some nonsense sometimes, John :D.
As I said, Pixelteks point is totally valid. I was just trying to say that I didn't really notice the loss due to my workflow. Those preview spheres were becoming less and less useful, to me, especially for UV maps and node flows.
I use UV maps a lot and, the Modeler OpenGL perspective view is how I generally test the majority of my maps. The thing is Modeler can only take me so far, and I always end up going into Layout to check the surfaces are really working the way I expect, IMO. That was true for LW5.6 as it is for LW2018.
For me, the new preview system is for final tweaking, not for initial testing.
For me, my initial setup is still largely in Modeler because 80% of the time its UV or weight tools get me through the job. I don't expect that to change any time soon. I am underwhelmed by the UDIM support, as only the most basic UV Tool can assign Tiles, and you are stuck having to set them up manually after using ABF Unwrap or PLG tools.
But I do like that we now have a system that takes into account scene lighting for testing, without having to turn off every other object in the scene editor to tweak.

Myagi
01-07-2018, 04:19 AM
Saying "just do all your surfacing in Layout" sounds great until you realize that the UV editing support is in Modeler.

Not only that, it assumes Layout is coming into play at all. Some people might primarily use Modeler only, for asset creation elsewhere (like games). While the LW material may (or may not) have less meaning there, it's still nice to be able to roughly setup a material and have a quick preview. The preview also acts as an icon, making it easier at least for my brain to remember what a material was by having an image associated with it.

(The icon thing also applies to Layout, regarding the intergrated preview in the surface editor dialog. Some extra floating window or viewport is a lot clumsier in that regard.)

gar26lw
01-07-2018, 04:30 AM
i’m glad to see you are still around myagi. great plugins

UnCommonGrafx
01-07-2018, 04:42 AM
That's what was different! hehehe, couldn't put my finger on it: the surface ball is gone in modeler's surface panel.

That's funny.

I've been playing with some things in this conversation and would like to share my findings.
With uv mapping and surfacing in modeler, I have always used a small layout window running vpr on the other monitor to see how my model is coming along.

Now, I can add a viewport(!) and place it anywhere to see exactly how my uv map is laying, for example. It was kind of a thrill to be able to work that fast, see the results, tumble a bit...

I think a lot of work has gone into this build to make a lot of these kinds of concerns moot. The shader ball is gone cuz there are better options now.
Robert

BeeVee
01-12-2018, 03:43 PM
And the shader ball as was didn't react to scene lighting, and it was only the shapes allowed, and and and... :)

B

jeric_synergy
01-12-2018, 03:49 PM
I've been playing with some things in this conversation and would like to share my findings.
With uv mapping and surfacing in modeler, I have always used a small layout window running vpr on the other monitor to see how my model is coming along.

Now, I can add a viewport(!) and place it anywhere to see exactly how my uv map is laying, for example. It was kind of a thrill to be able to work that fast, see the results, tumble a bit...

That sounds like a clever (to me, or is it obvious?) workflow. BeeVee, I think this tip should be included in the dox if it's not already there.

Myagi
01-12-2018, 04:09 PM
And the shader ball as was didn't react to scene lighting, and it was only the shapes allowed, and and and...

and there is no scene lighting in Modeler, so no loss, and having the shader ball doesn't preclude also having all the new nice stuff that 2018 added... :)

jeric_synergy
01-12-2018, 06:11 PM
and there is no scene lighting in Modeler, so no loss, and having the shader ball doesn't preclude also having all the new nice stuff that 2018 added... :)
Meh. They could EASILY make it so that, if Layout is running, Modeler just swipes the lights.

Myagi
01-13-2018, 03:29 AM
Sure, no problem with such a feature, but that's not really a "solution" just a nice additional feature. Some people might only use modeler to create stuff to never use in Layout. Modeler can run fine without Layout, so if a preview existed it would have to be able to handle not having Layout to talk to anyway (and it's not like using some default light setup is rocket science). And most importantly again, it isn't an aither or argument of shading ball vs. the new way. They could coexist just fine.

jeric_synergy
01-14-2018, 01:21 PM
OK then, in that case (ie, Layout not running) I'd just have a default (hardcoded) 3 point lighting setup. I'd also include a User Option to:


A) always use this default setup;
B) use the Layout lights if they exist;
C) use a user defined set of lights (which could be defined by a user generated Scene).

It's software: it's malleable.