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spigolo
12-14-2017, 02:33 PM
I've been a lightwave user for more than 20 years and I've built my professional career mostly thanks to the use of this software.
In these last years, when the brightness of lightwave started to fade, I've kept on supporting it and defende my choice despite what other people or competitors
around me thought.
It was hard to find collaborators that were able to use it, who were willing to learn it etc., but Lightwave always proved to be productive and, like many of us, I've delivered very important projects thanks to it.
I've always thought it was the best choice for my kind of work.

But now things are different.

I do think this last release will be a great boost of productivity for people like me who have a long production experience with Lw (as well as render farm, plugins etc), nevertheless I WILL NOT UPGRADE MY LICENCES UNTIL I GET A CLEAR ROADMAP STATEMENT FROM LIGHTWAVE GROUP. After such a long time of silence we DESERVE IT.

I've talked with many users and I'm sure that many of them share my opinion. After one and an half year of silence that showed no respect for us, being a loyal user I felt so disappointed that I've started looking for and purchaising alternative softwares.
We 've made our living thanks to lightwave and changing software is not an easy choice, but respect towards users should be a top priority for any company, expecially in this case, since the Lightwave community is a special one.

I really hope that many users will follow my choice and force Lightwave group to reveal the guidelines of their future developement plans as well as a predictable timing before upgrading.
Other companies do it, why do we always have to wait for a new release feeling anxious and with the fear that promises won't be kept?
If Newtek or lightwave group want to have a future, and keep at least their user base, they owe this to us.

sudac20
12-14-2017, 02:41 PM
:i_agree::i_agree:

gar26lw
12-14-2017, 03:39 PM
i just wrote in another thread that all expectations are futile and tbh, i think you are wasting your time. be happy you got an upgrade. sucks but there you go. that’s the lw life.

thomascheng
12-14-2017, 03:44 PM
The last few times LW announced anything early, Luxology copied and beat them to the punch. Don't expect them to tell their competition how to beat their upcoming release.

SBowie
12-14-2017, 03:54 PM
The last few times LW announced anything early, Luxology copied and beat them to the punch. Don't expect them to tell their competition how to beat their upcoming release.Well, that's a generous construction to put on things, but being honest, I doubt this would be in the top five reasons why NewTek is probably never going to publish a roadmap.

50one
12-14-2017, 04:19 PM
The last few times LW announced anything early, Luxology copied and beat them to the punch. Don't expect them to tell their competition how to beat their upcoming release.

Huh? Care to elaborate?

Wickedpup
12-14-2017, 04:30 PM
The last few times LW announced anything early, Luxology copied and beat them to the punch. Don't expect them to tell their competition how to beat their upcoming release.Yeah, I would also like to hear more specific details about this......

gar26lw
12-14-2017, 04:47 PM
Well, that's a generous construction to put on things, but being honest, I doubt this would be in the top five reasons why NewTek is probably never going to publish a roadmap.

I think a roadmap implies they are going to deliver and that scares them. Personally, I think this is exactly the kick they need. Probably why it was Rob's parting statement.

TheLexx
12-14-2017, 05:19 PM
I realise it is a bit of a thing to say after the dark period, but I think LW should reserve the right to change their minds and change direction in any given situation, though I'm not saying it is a great strategy and I think they know that. But even more blasé, in reality roadmap priority one right now would be to shift as many LW2018s as humanly possible in the shortest amount of time as possible.

I think companies like Allegorithmic can be more specific with their roadmaps because they are more specialist, but LW have pretty much stated in the aftermath of the darkness that they would now prefer to under-promise and over-deliver, which I think is fair at this time. Also, without speculating about why Rob left, they will want to be very careful who is any replacement before they take any specific long turn.

Tobian
12-14-2017, 05:22 PM
I think someone's going to go to other software... Not going to happen... Rob didn't exactly produce one either, so it's a bit rich him making that as a parting shot...

SBowie
12-14-2017, 05:41 PM
I think someone's going to go to other software... Not going to happen... Rob didn't exactly produce one either, so it's a bit rich him making that as a parting shot...Can we not criticize someone who isn't here to defend himself, please.

Chuck
12-14-2017, 05:41 PM
I've been a lightwave user for more than 20 years and I've built my professional career mostly thanks to the use of this software.
In these last years, when the brightness of lightwave started to fade, I've kept on supporting it and defende my choice despite what other people or competitors
around me thought.
It was hard to find collaborators that were able to use it, who were willing to learn it etc., but Lightwave always proved to be productive and, like many of us, I've delivered very important projects thanks to it.
I've always thought it was the best choice for my kind of work.

But now things are different.

I do think this last release will be a great boost of productivity for people like me who have a long production experience with Lw (as well as render farm, plugins etc), nevertheless I WILL NOT UPGRADE MY LICENCES UNTIL I GET A CLEAR ROADMAP STATEMENT FROM LIGHTWAVE GROUP. After such a long time of silence we DESERVE IT.

I've talked with many users and I'm sure that many of them share my opinion. After one and an half year of silence that showed no respect for us, being a loyal user I felt so disappointed that I've started looking for and purchaising alternative softwares.
We 've made our living thanks to lightwave and changing software is not an easy choice, but respect towards users should be a top priority for any company, expecially in this case, since the Lightwave community is a special one.

I really hope that many users will follow my choice and force Lightwave group to reveal the guidelines of their future developement plans as well as a predictable timing before upgrading.
Other companies do it, why do we always have to wait for a new release feeling anxious and with the fear that promises won't be kept?
If Newtek or lightwave group want to have a future, and keep at least their user base, they owe this to us.


This is just me talking, not NewTek.

My perception on the quarter-century of LightWave's existence that I've observed: The exclusive concentration of so many on what is not here in LightWave and how soon what is not here is going to get here has poisoned all the good out of what LightWave 3D actually is at any given moment, for decades. And "so many" doesn't mean just the users; we here at NewTek have had a lot to do with nurturing what was already a strong tendency in the computer and software industry, especially as it intersected with the entertainment industry - make future product a marketing tool for current product. We even managed to totally overwrite a very good v9.6 release with one of those episodes, only to reach a historically* ignominious end for something that actually had a great deal of potential.

This obsession has poisoned the morale of both the community and of the developers and marketers of the product. It has engendered a bunker mentality in all of these, and I believe will continue to do so for as long as it remains the obsession of so many.

Testimony to this is that LightWave 3D 2018 has not even shipped and already the big focus and clamor for so many is not about what this new version offers for their workflow and how they can use it, it is instead about "now tell us what is coming next, and next, and next!"

More than a quarter of a century of continuous development has long since answered the question of "Will LightWave keep moving forward?" It will. I can understand that just knowing there will be progress is not enough for some folks, they want to be sure the product will go in a direction that they particularly want it to go. Trying to satisfy those types of demands in any significant detail and making timetable promises along with it just may in fact, however, be detrimental to best success in those developments, and even more so to the necessary bedrock work to refresh the foundations of the product. Schedule pressures and public feature commitments can reshape development in a lot of ways and not all for the good. And they can push the cool things that having the liberty to think outside of the box can bring, right off of the table.

I don't think it's the case that the 3D Group could completely emulate the SOP of the video team with respect to the customer base, as there is too much difference between the two industries, but the video team does not pre-announce anything. They don't provide roadmaps of updates to existing products nor do they pre-announce new products. They do pretty regularly drop both bug fixes and minor feature enhancements, they release paid feature upgrades, and they also regularly release entirely new products, such as today's 3Play 3P1 release, our first 3Play model based on an all-IP workflow as are the TriCaster TC1 (released earlier this year) and the NewTek IP Series (released last year).

Their projects have time to mature and are brought to market when ready for the light of day. They have pressures of course, because making sure that you stay on the cutting edge in a highly competitive environment is not a low-pressure profession. But they don't add the excruciating and artificial pressure of making it all public while still in the egg and making an estimate that no matter how many times you remind folks is an estimate, gets regarded as a promise by some folks, who then feel entitled to disparage not only your competence but your character and ancestry when you run past it.

I recall talking to a wiser head than my own once about a customer who needed a capability for his video productions that our video production systems did not have at the time, but that I knew was in development. I wondered if I should advise the customer of this. The answer he gave me was no, of course not. If the customer needs a capability right now, and your product doesn't have it, you need to disqualify your product, and let that customer get a product that has what they need now. What's in development can be subject to change for a huge number of reasons, and so, just don't. Don't. Offer what you have now, to those for whom it meets the needs. If you work at innovating a great product each iteration, you're going to have things that people need and can only get from your product, and even back then it was the case that people were building multi-tool video production pipelines. Someone buying a product from the other guy did not mean they wouldn't get around to buying yours as well.

Giving up customers still sounded like a dicey proposition to me at the time, but I've seen a lot of angst since then that all came down to both NewTek and the LightWave users being so engaged with the roadmap that they completely lost the road.**

Again, I am sure there needs to be some forward discussion, but does it really need to be so much the only topic that can be discussed as some people seem to think?

Specifically with respect to announcing roadmaps and time projections, and specifically not about discussing the future of the product in general with the community: I find the idea of not talking about things that you haven't finished yet, vastly appealing. I find the idea of not talking about things that you haven't started yet, absolutely sublime.

I'm also sure this is just crazy talk from an old fogey, so feel free to ignore it, or to agree with me that I'm clearly full of beans (or worse), but do hit me up for a beer if you happen to be passing through sometime. :beerchug:

*Well, "historically" for us, that is; nothing in the grand scheme of human history of ignominy, really.

**"Engaged with the roadmap:" Angst about development progress when there was a pre-announced new version and estimated release date; or angst about a pre-announced update with no date estimate; or angst about there being no announcement yet for a next update for either fixes or features, nor estimated release date. Quite a variety of angst opportunity there when you think about it.

shrox
12-14-2017, 05:50 PM
How do we "deserve" a roadmap? Do car manufacturers detail their plans for the future? They show us cool concept cars that never go into production. Newtek did how us a concept with CORE, but it just wasn't feasible. I think they decided simply not to do that again.

Tobian
12-14-2017, 05:51 PM
Can we not criticize someone who isn't here to defend himself, please.

Maybe I should put back what I was originally going to put :p

3D Kiwi
12-14-2017, 05:56 PM
We don't deserve a roadmap what we do deserve is an explanation as to how things will improve from this point on, Will we have to wait another three years for an update? Who will be overseeing Lightwaves development
now that Rob is gone, Will the blog be continued and how will they improve on their communication to their users.

bitshift
12-14-2017, 06:25 PM
the horse behind the cart that's a good strategy.

paulhart
12-14-2017, 06:25 PM
Chuck, thank you for your thoughts. I hope some read it in full, pause to let it sink in, before railing on again. The only software that I use that ever has a 'roadmap' is Blender, which is a completely different 'kettle of fish,' or some other hokey analogy. Open source, with a fluid roadmap. Does it get altered and set aside, indeed it does, but for the most part they deliver on their intent. Part of their 'roadmap' for Blender 2.8 does not include some development that I particularly find useful, so I am probably going to re-commit to Lightwave for a pet project. This area is NPR, calligraphic lines and hand-drawn texture aspects, very prominent in the Japanese market, and apparently addressed in this up coming release. I have been asking for it forever.... but now that it looks to be available, I am very happy. As others, including yourself have said, work with the tools you have. I have come to expect garbled communication from Newtek, and I don't expect that to change. Would it help feelings if it did, undoubtedly, but the prospect of a 'roadmap' which then becomes a cudgel with which user hammer the development team, makes no sense to me. A long history, including detours, as I remember well, still has Lightwave providing a toolset that is industry proven and productive. Take a look at the work in this video from Kamakeze Douga to get a feeling for potential. It was done in Lightwave 2018 Beta. Now if we can get some videos, how to's, Plugins ported over in English, etc. I am a happy camper.


May I happily inform you that LW devs went to Japan to collect wishes for the new Cel interactive shader amongst others. And for you the cherry on the top is Batman-Ninja, movie soon tbr'ed by Warner Bros all done in LW2018 beta by Kamakeze Douga. It 's Kurosawa runnin' with with DC. Be amazed, I was, all my Xmas luck to Douga on release! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwPFxcefpdU

Kaptive
12-14-2017, 06:26 PM
In a sense Chuck, your open thoughts on development are actually the kind of comms I think we need. Roadmaps perhaps are too restricting and maybe create more issues than they solve, but hearing from someone on the team about the honest truths of development brings a certain sense of comfort... well to me anyway. Some ideas are great on paper (or screen), but the realities are sometimes often different. Without hearing about the problems certain ideas cause, there is no balance to the conversation.

So anyway, thanks for your open thoughts.

shrox
12-14-2017, 06:42 PM
the horse behind the cart that's a good strategy.

Pusher prop airplanes are quite fast and efficient.

Nicolas Jordan
12-14-2017, 07:15 PM
Some good thoughts there as to why a road map being made public likely wouldn't serve us as well as we might think.

js33
12-14-2017, 07:16 PM
Thanks Chuck for opening your stream of consciousness. I can understand the dev team not wanting to lock themselves in a corner and then everyone gets pissed off. But users being kept in the dark is not a good strategy either. We did have the blog earlier this year which was good. I think maybe there should be a voting system where the users vote on the features they most want or need. Then we can get to some agreement on what should be worked on in what order. Then the community will know what is happening and the devs can chime in with any concerns they have on what can be done.

gar26lw
12-14-2017, 07:24 PM
could I suggest some sort of template put forward/written by the devs so that we can provide feature requests, improvements etc in some sort of organized, constructive way that is in a format that they find easy to understand and immediately useful. As a sticky on here perhaps?

TheLexx
12-14-2017, 07:32 PM
Agreed with Kaptive. What I would like to see is not so much a roadmap for Lightwave but possibly a decent quality paid tutorial section. Rigging Revealed (https://www.lightwave3d.com/buy-lightwave-training/) has been lonely by itself for years.

For example, if a person wanted to learn Modo, there are some classic really high quality paid tutorials eg Modo for Industrial Design (https://www.foundry.com/products/modo/paid-tutorials/modo-industrial-design#), video demo here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7b-FaZfD2q4&feature=youtu.be) or Rockfish (https://www.foundry.com/products/modo/paid-tutorials/rockfish-project) or Creating a Character (https://www.foundry.com/products/modo/paid-tutorials/character-creation). I am totally not pushing Modo here, just contrasting they have these really well presented very attractive pages on the website with iconic tutorials with the emphasis strictly on quality over quantity, where any newcomer could just stop and think, "Wow, I could get really into this". Even some of the old free tutorials from their old stalwarts still doing the rounds look really good, like here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLxAsvsORMg) I am not comparing Modo to Modeler but more envious that he is describing the potential complexity of Modo in such a relatively simple way.

Lightwave did once have some really high quality third party material like Visual FX with LightWave 3D (https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Visual+FX+for+LightWave+3D&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3AVisual+FX+for+LightWave+3D) or Character Modeling and Animation Series (https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=rex+olson+todd+grimes+dvd&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Arex+olson+todd+grimes+dvd) and even some of the Kurv (http://www.voodoofrog.com/lightwave3dtutorials/lightwave3dblog/review7.htm)titles before that project went sour, but there seems to be a dearth at the moment.

Around twenty or thirty really choice high quality varied project based paid Lightwave tutorials. Not like this (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?152171-Adam-Gibson-training-uhhhhh). Anyway, I've rambled.

I intend to purchase LW 2018 at 01/01/2018 00:01:01 GMT. Staggering effort, job well done. :)

samurai_x
12-14-2017, 07:43 PM
Is this Rob Power's wisdom flowing through the old lw userbase? :D
Rob's post still echoes in my mind.

I have lost hope in lightwave being unified. They just can't do it. Twice failed.
Don't need a roadmap to tell me that.

3D Kiwi
12-14-2017, 07:48 PM
Is this Rob Power's wisdom flowing through the old lw userbase? :D
Rob's post still echoes in my mind.

I have lost hope in lightwave being unified. They just can't do it. Twice failed.
Don't need a roadmap to tell me that.

Twice? i know of CORE, what was the other time?

thomascheng
12-14-2017, 08:14 PM
This is why some people say true democracy doesn't work. Just lead to a lot of debates that goes nowhere.

erikals
12-14-2017, 08:15 PM
there was no other time.

some thought LW2018 was going to be unified.
most of us knew that was not even implied.

does this mean it will be unified later on? we have no idea. unfortunately.

samurai_x
12-14-2017, 08:17 PM
Twice? i know of CORE, what was the other time?

Afaik, the modo guys tried to do it and in lw 9 some modelling tools popped up into layout.
And then Core. Then Rob said work began under the hood at the time lightwave 11 was in development to try and unify lightwave.

I don't see anything after 7 years that would make me think layout is aware of vertex, edges, polys. We're on the fourth try to unify lightwave.

thomascheng
12-14-2017, 08:47 PM
IIRC, they made an attempt and realized they needed to fixed a lot of other issues before they can unify it. I think maybe now the changes are in place, but its obvoius they will not promise anything. I don't want to speculate too much, but we now have a new geometry engine, QT framework to get the process started. The undo will probably need to be corrected, or you can't undo much while modeling. I'm sure they want that to happen, just not ready yet.

gar26lw
12-14-2017, 09:01 PM
i’d prefer undo before unification. tbh i’m not sure we need unification right now if we had the tools required for productive work in layout.

thomascheng
12-14-2017, 09:11 PM
Yeah, I agree. They really can't unify until Undo is fixed. It would be pretty frustrating to work with layout undo limits while modeling. I'm speculating again, but I think it would be better for development to only work with 1 program instead of maintaining two programs and making sure they talk to each other with new features.

GraphXs
12-14-2017, 09:16 PM
I'm confident that eventually some type of modeling tools willake it to layout eventually. Though I don't think it will replace modeler for a while. Now that we have the stack, imagine a edit mesh as apart of it...maybe some tools like bevel, Booleans etc. Maybe they can always be live and animatable, or collapsed so the stack doesn't get unstable/heavy.

That is where i see it going. Ya wouldnt need an undo system foe that can ya can go back and change it.

As for getting modeler all into layout, that is a hudge task. I would be happy if we get both...and slowly we get more edit tools for the stack as we move forward...and maybe modeler could get some boost in preformance until layout has a workflow that mimics some of modelers.

roboman
12-14-2017, 09:42 PM
We deserve a roadmap.
Really? Why? Did they agree to do a roadmap when we paid for the last upgrade? Was there a promise of one? I really hate that phrase, along with the 'I need' phrase, probably mostly a personal thing. You would clearly like one and may no longer upgrade if you don't get one, but demanding that Newtek/Lightwave owes it to you... I guess it would be nice, but Newtek doesn't really seem to be the kind of company that works that way. They just keep making really cool stuff and then selling it.

What ever, LW 2018 seems like a cool enough group of new toys to be worth the price. When I sent them the $295 all they will owe me is a copy of Lightwave 2018, and I think that is a totally reasonable deal.

CaptainMarlowe
12-14-2017, 11:00 PM
This is just me talking, not NewTek.

Testimony to this is that LightWave 3D 2018 has not even shipped and already the big focus and clamor for so many is not about what this new version offers for their workflow and how they can use it, it is instead about "now tell us what is coming next, and next, and next!"


The best way to avoid that would be to flow us with video examples and or tuts of new features, like it was done for 11 and 11.5 releases. More renders of huge scene and so on. It would definitely help people projecting themselves in the future with LW2018 to have more in-depth insights of the benefits brought by the new release. OK, we have had OD_toolset videos in mass these last three days to understand that it would bring huge workflow improvements (and as I understand it, this is a benefit of the much improved sdk, as Oliver said on FB), but it's a plug-in.
New rendering capabilities and new volumetric engine alone could provide a serious start, and a demo reel with shows in which LW2018 has been used, since it seems it's been used in production already. That would help a great deal imho.
I do hope NT will provide a flow of highlights on new features in the coming days, and I am pretty confident people will, for a fair part, stop asking for what's to come in the next ten years and start to think about what they will be able to do in the next ten months with the new version.
And, in a few months, when LW2018 is well launched, and LW2018.X or 2019 on its way, why not, from time to time, a simple sneak peek of a future improvement, just to keep a feel for curiosity.

This said, part of the community, like some divorced ex-lovers will always stay around and criticise instead of just looking elsewhere. That's human, and to a certain extent, understandable, according to the circumstances.

My 2 cts, of course.

jeric_synergy
12-14-2017, 11:44 PM
I'm confident that eventually some type of modeling tools willake it to layout eventually. .
Isn't there some Russian plugin writer who is working on that just recently?

gar26lw
12-14-2017, 11:47 PM
interesting video. nice tutorial!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go6XhO__xdM

spigolo
12-15-2017, 12:10 AM
My thread was provocatory but intentionaly.
It express feeling I heard from many users, I know that a road map doesn't mean anything, but a total lack of communication when you have hundreds of user waiting for just a simple statement means for me no respect.
Of course Newtek doesn't deserve anything to us, it is a business relationship , but as we talk about business a more stable and balanced communication with users would make people who invested in lightwave more willing to go on and i think newtek
would be happy with more sales...
At the moment we don't know the reason for the silcence ( I hear some insight but of course I keep this for me) we don't know how many people work on the developement etc.
Just to make an example i purchased Modo last year, since that time as a simple user I had the opportunity to hear live talk between Modo developers regarding what they are doing what they would like to have, where are they going etc and we had regualar upgrades, this makes you feel more protected in your investment. Of course they don't spread details i don't pretend that, but for instance they announced they were working on performance improvements and we had that, they talked about procedural modelling and after some months we had that, now we know they are still working on performance and on animation for the next release...,why we can't have something like that?

graviel
12-15-2017, 03:56 AM
I was really celebrating the end of drama, but it looks some people wants to go on and on.
It does look as if things are in fact moving, adopting the PBR trend as other renderers such as Renderman did (as well a follower like LW), denoise, integrating a new shading interface, new geometry engine. It does look as if we are in fact heading towards the NEXT idea. I have to say LW is one of the best renderers out there, and one of the few with free infinite render nodes, which combined with chronosculpt´s geometry engine seems to me like a hell of a tool able to display a hell big amount of data. The order of deformation change is a hidden gem full of possibilities for serious rigging.
What to say? I have been using Maya since v 1.0, Softimage for 5 years, Houdini, Modo, LW, Blenderman + Renderman, Clarisse. I do not see that unfairness you guys talk about all the time.

souzou
12-15-2017, 04:29 AM
I think there is a lot of wisdom in Chuck's post. That said, 3d software is a fairly unique product because the investment in it (from a user) is immense in terms of time/expertise, or from a studio perspective the pipeline that you build around it. In our case for example, as a small studio (3 seats of LW) and having used LW for 15 years or so, it's not simple to just say "oh we'll just use Maya for everything now instead" - it's a big deal to migrate to another primary package. When the dev blog was setup it was great because you could see areas being addressed and how that could also lead to further improvements (new geometry core being the prime example). So I don't think people need a roadmap, but I think given the market position LW is currently in some form of communication (like a dev blog) showing that areas are being addressed would at least help us make more informed choices. You're not really giving anything away to the competition just by showing some modeler tools now working in layout, or a dockable UI, or a working undo (for example) - but you will be showing users the direction you are heading and the things that are being addressed.

mav3rick
12-15-2017, 04:44 AM
As Spigolo said most of us are long time users, in most cases we use lw almost 100% in production, most of us make living with LW and even though this release is worth 295$ even more worth is trust btw. company/developers and users. with all what happened lately i think we deserve someone responsible to speak out and someone responsible to tell us what is exact future they are looking for with LW3D(i know we cant get specific feature roadmap but at least rough picture what we can expect, is it modeler focus is it UI focus for next release or is it 1st stage of unification... just anything that we could hope for).. we cant be put in dark for 3 years and wait for next release wondering is LW dead or not and on top of that all seeing chief of development LEAVING on same day of 2018 announce... i am calling that kind of development roller coaster.

graviel
12-15-2017, 05:09 AM
My bet is protests might be the biggest player in that game of thrones, you guys (I don't mean just the ones writing here just now, but the rest of moob) made a year of the most damaging propaganda any product could possibly have. if you dont want to migrate and you want your skills to stay current, stop preventing adoption with those rivers of drama.
Does anyone consider planing, coding and testing does takes time? maybe LW2018 is just the part of NEXT which is ready, they did change the geometry engine, getting read of modeler is closer than ever. they did say this was the direction. There is a roadmap.

I was kicked out of Softimage, Maya (in europe costs 300€/month), Messiah went abandoneware... Those are real problems, LW is just under a slow development curve because of an architecture change.

We can continue this so new users freak out, or try to be constructive. Up to you.

fishhead
12-15-2017, 05:13 AM
ditto that!

safetyman
12-15-2017, 05:57 AM
Without clear lines of communication with the userbase, you become like AD -- you'll get what we provide for you and that's it... live with it or go on to something else. Nobody here wants that. It's good that we are now hearing from you guys, so keep it up. I hate to see all the forum threads about wild speculation and the death of LW. Not knowing anything at all is more often worse than relating disappointing news. Listen to what the users want and strive to give it to them, which I'm sure is what NT intends, but recent updates seem to point elsewhere; it might be cool to add better fur, but if you can't undo certain selection commands...

Right now, NT has a small, loyal user base. The way to increase that user base is to be more transparent... I'm not saying you should open the curtain the whole way, but give a dog a taste and he'll keep coming back to beg for more. Months and months with no nuggets at all isn't a taste -- that's starvation. "We're working on it" and "We'll release something when it's ready" are a good way to push people away, as you've seen recently.

spigolo
12-15-2017, 06:30 AM
I think there is a lot of wisdom in Chuck's post. That said, 3d software is a fairly unique product because the investment in it (from a user) is immense in terms of time/expertise, or from a studio perspective the pipeline that you build around it. In our case for example, as a small studio (3 seats of LW) and having used LW for 15 years or so, it's not simple to just say "oh we'll just use Maya for everything now instead" - it's a big deal to migrate to another primary package. When the dev blog was setup it was great because you could see areas being addressed and how that could also lead to further improvements (new geometry core being the prime example). So I don't think people need a roadmap, but I think given the market position LW is currently in some form of communication (like a dev blog) showing that areas are being addressed would at least help us make more informed choices. You're not really giving anything away to the competition just by showing some modeler tools now working in layout, or a dockable UI, or a working undo (for example) - but you will be showing users the direction you are heading and the things that are being addressed.

Thats what I mean...

- - - Updated - - -


Without clear lines of communication with the userbase, you become like AD -- you'll get what we provide for you and that's it... live with it or go on to something else. Nobody here wants that. It's good that we are now hearing from you guys, so keep it up. I hate to see all the forum threads about wild speculation and the death of LW. Not knowing anything at all is more often worse than relating disappointing news. Listen to what the users want and strive to give it to them, which I'm sure is what NT intends, but recent updates seem to point elsewhere; it might be cool to add better fur, but if you can't undo certain selection commands...

Right now, NT has a small, loyal user base. The way to increase that user base is to be more transparent... I'm not saying you should open the curtain the whole way, but give a dog a taste and he'll keep coming back to beg for more. Months and months with no nuggets at all isn't a taste -- that's starvation. "We're working on it" and "We'll release something when it's ready" are a good way to push people away, as you've seen recently.

Also this...

dballesg
12-15-2017, 06:52 AM
Can we not criticize someone who isn't here to defend himself, please.

Can we criticize then your boss the all illuminated Dr. Cross? He is here to defend himself... only saying

GandB
12-15-2017, 07:11 AM
Without clear lines of communication with the userbase, you become like AD -- you'll get what we provide for you and that's it... live with it or go on to something else. Nobody here wants that. It's good that we are now hearing from you guys, so keep it up. I hate to see all the forum threads about wild speculation and the death of LW. Not knowing anything at all is more often worse than relating disappointing news. Listen to what the users want and strive to give it to them, which I'm sure is what NT intends, but recent updates seem to point elsewhere; it might be cool to add better fur, but if you can't undo certain selection commands...

Right now, NT has a small, loyal user base. The way to increase that user base is to be more transparent... I'm not saying you should open the curtain the whole way, but give a dog a taste and he'll keep coming back to beg for more. Months and months with no nuggets at all isn't a taste -- that's starvation. "We're working on it" and "We'll release something when it's ready" are a good way to push people away, as you've seen recently.

This; as well as Maverick's and SouZou's posts. This is what is needed...badly.

mav3rick
12-15-2017, 07:24 AM
Can we criticize then your boss the all illuminated Dr. Cross? He is here to defend himself... only saying

+1 .

SBowie
12-15-2017, 07:35 AM
Can we criticize then your boss the all illuminated Dr. Cross? He is here to defend himself... only sayingYou can certainly email him. Although he's extremely busy, I know he makes a real attempt to handle such mail. And I know he reads the forums when he can. As to criticism, this is what forum policy states (in part):


The following items are not considered professional or civil discourse allowed on these forums:
....
Non-constructive criticism of a malicious nature
Personal attacks against NewTek customers or employees and their family members

Regarding "Non-constructive criticism", posts are evaluated on a case by case basis. Broadly speaking, it's better to constructively criticize policy than people.

shrox
12-15-2017, 08:45 AM
Can we criticize then your boss the all illuminated Dr. Cross? He is here to defend himself... only saying

Why?

Snosrap
12-15-2017, 09:05 AM
A little communication can go a long way. No state secrets, just some talk. Like maybe "Hey guys! Did you know you could do this with a node and a light." Or better yet how about a 5 minute podcast every couple weeks or so. LW is a good package - talk about it. :)

Nicolas Jordan
12-15-2017, 09:06 AM
I have lost hope in lightwave being unified. They just can't do it. Twice failed.
Don't need a roadmap to tell me that.

I agree. I've accepted the fact that Lightwave may never be unified. Even if they were able to unify Lightwave it could easily turn into an even larger mess if not done properly. I still use Lightwave for what it is and there are some strengths in having modeler and Layout separate so I try to focus on that.

erikals
12-15-2017, 10:55 AM
Lightwave may never be unified
i think this is a healthy mindset.

Schwyhart
12-15-2017, 11:44 AM
I personally don't think we need a roadmap. I like feature surprises.
The blog was good and was probably needed due to the length of time between the last v2015 point release. In hindsight they should have spread out the blog post evenly, so the span of silence wasn't so long at the end.

For some reason, I feel like they already had these features in place a while ago, but was asked to do even more...then after several months decided to release what they had and leave the uncompleted features for a point release.

Also, I think Rob probably always had the intention of moving on after getting LW revamped for a new era (even though, I guess it's not 100% implemented yet). It wouldn't surprise me if he's back with James Cameron working on the new Avatar movies. He was with LW3DG for almost 8 years! How many LW releases under him?
I wish Rob well on his new endeavors.

Chuck
12-15-2017, 11:48 AM
While I am "Just me, not NewTek":

And please read nothing at all into this other than a personal, speculative observation. I've always felt the Unify/Don't Unify debate has a completely unnecessary either/or element to it. With an appropriate geometry engine, Layout can essentially become "LightWave" with complete modelling capabilities added, and able to animate over time. With appropriate design considerations, that really does not preclude the inclusion of those elements into a dedicated Modeler minus the overhead of anything not required for modeling, which of course may provide a more compact footprint, and streamlines the UI considerably for those who want to concentrate on the modeling task.

Of course, a flexible UI in Layout could also give people the sense of dedicated environments, and footprint is increasingly irrelevant as available memory keeps rising. But still, It's Just Software, and the options are open. I don't think the technical barriers preclude any of the possibilities - but I'm not the fellow who'd have to do the work and could be entirely and completely mistaken as I'm a few years away now from the inside view I used to have on development - caveat.

SBowie
12-15-2017, 11:59 AM
I wish Rob well on his new endeavors.As do we all. Even when people's aspirations for LW differ, those intentions are always sincerely held and carried out with passion.

shrox
12-15-2017, 12:08 PM
While I am "Just me, not NewTek":

And please read nothing at all into this other than a personal, speculative observation. I've always felt the Unify/Don't Unify debate has a completely unnecessary either/or element to it. With an appropriate geometry engine, Layout can essentially become "LightWave" with complete modelling capabilities added, and able to animate over time. With appropriate design considerations, that really does not preclude the inclusion of those elements into a dedicated Modeler minus the overhead of anything not required for modeling, which of course may provide a more compact footprint, and streamlines the UI considerably for those who want to concentrate on the modeling task.

Of course, a flexible UI in Layout could also give people the sense of dedicated environments, and footprint is increasingly irrelevant as available memory keeps rising. But still, It's Just Software, and the options are open. I don't think the technical barriers preclude any of the possibilities - but I'm not the fellow who'd have to do the work and could be entirely and completely mistaken as I'm a few years away now from the inside view I used to have on development - caveat.

Does it have good smoke and fluids? I think most of us have taken Hypervoxels about as far as they can go.

TheLexx
12-15-2017, 12:20 PM
I wish Rob well on his new endeavors.Me too. Someone mentioned both Rob and Lino were gone which is very sad (one more time the encore (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=9m36s&v=SLbl7hl2PRc)). Otherwise, what has happened is that the rolling silence has been broken with the sudden announcement of an imminent LW2018 release, while some people were still in "complaint mode" and they got properly broadsided (not aimed at OP). So now it's all sorts of tangents before even a single copy has shipped. The "charter deal" stuff is beyond me so I hope that is all settled amicably, otherwise I find LW2018 just uncontainably exciting. And $295 ? Deeply shocking....for all the right reasons. They have emerged from this very, very well.

I never had a problem shaving my hair and writing Modeler one side and Layout the other. Jokes aside, some of the staff who are now beginning to show here, and what they have said, absolutely inspire me Newtek is in the right hands. Oddly enough, I am sensing a second silence, but this one seems based more on a sort of quiet pride from the devs at what they have silently achieved with LW2018 (I don't think many people would argue it wasn't silent !), which I suspect will prove very well founded indeed after release.

:)

erikals
12-15-2017, 12:31 PM
While I am "Just me, not NewTek":

And please read nothing at all into this other than a personal, speculative observation. I've always felt the Unify/Don't Unify debate has a completely unnecessary either/or element to it. With an appropriate geometry engine, Layout can essentially become "LightWave" with complete modelling capabilities added, and able to animate over time. With appropriate design considerations, that really does not preclude the inclusion of those elements into a dedicated Modeler minus the overhead of anything not required for modeling, which of course may provide a more compact footprint, and streamlines the UI considerably for those who want to concentrate on the modeling task.

Of course, a flexible UI in Layout could also give people the sense of dedicated environments, and footprint is increasingly irrelevant as available memory keeps rising. But still, It's Just Software, and the options are open. I don't think the technical barriers preclude any of the possibilities - but I'm not the fellow who'd have to do the work and could be entirely and completely mistaken as I'm a few years away now from the inside view I used to have on development - caveat.

Well.

the complaint, from a former LW programmer, was that each time Layout had an update, Modeler code had to be compensated.
i agree, and think it is quite logic that maintaining both Modeler / Layout does add more of a mess to the code.

so, no. Separate apps, a no thank you from me, and a no thank you from the former LW coder.

------

however, a transition over time, sure why not. it might even be inevitable.

to add, Motion Graphics is a number 1 example where the Modeler / Layout split falls short.

------

on a "positive" note, the M/L split can still be alright, in several situations.

regarding the drawback,
i will make a video with the pitfalls and send it to Tim/Jim personally if there is still any doubt about this.

maybe i should, since the road after Rob left now seems shattered concerning this area ?

umbcel
12-15-2017, 01:32 PM
The last few times LW announced anything early, Luxology copied and beat them to the punch. Don't expect them to tell their competition how to beat their upcoming release.

I think that now, only NewTek can copy from competitors.
There is nothing to be invented today but it is only necessary to integrate new technologies into LightWave.
A free software like Blender have tons of these integrations like GPU acceleration and much more and is a shame that in 2017, in LightWave are still missing.

umbcel
12-15-2017, 01:49 PM
My thread was provocatory but intentionaly.
It express feeling I heard from many users, I know that a road map doesn't mean anything, but a total lack of communication when you have hundreds of user waiting for just a simple statement means for me no respect.
Of course Newtek doesn't deserve anything to us, it is a business relationship , but as we talk about business a more stable and balanced communication with users would make people who invested in lightwave more willing to go on and i think newtek
would be happy with more sales...
At the moment we don't know the reason for the silcence ( I hear some insight but of course I keep this for me) we don't know how many people work on the developement etc.
Just to make an example i purchased Modo last year, since that time as a simple user I had the opportunity to hear live talk between Modo developers regarding what they are doing what they would like to have, where are they going etc and we had regualar upgrades, this makes you feel more protected in your investment. Of course they don't spread details i don't pretend that, but for instance they announced they were working on performance improvements and we had that, they talked about procedural modelling and after some months we had that, now we know they are still working on performance and on animation for the next release...,why we can't have something like that?

I Totally Agree every word!
NewTek behaviour with their user base is simply shameful and disrespectfully.

hypersuperduper
12-15-2017, 02:17 PM
While I am "Just me, not NewTek":

And please read nothing at all into this other than a personal, speculative observation. I've always felt the Unify/Don't Unify debate has a completely unnecessary either/or element to it. With an appropriate geometry engine, Layout can essentially become "LightWave" with complete modelling capabilities added, and able to animate over time. With appropriate design considerations, that really does not preclude the inclusion of those elements into a dedicated Modeler minus the overhead of anything not required for modeling, which of course may provide a more compact footprint, and streamlines the UI considerably for those who want to concentrate on the modeling task.

Of course, a flexible UI in Layout could also give people the sense of dedicated environments, and footprint is increasingly irrelevant as available memory keeps rising. But still, It's Just Software, and the options are open. I don't think the technical barriers preclude any of the possibilities - but I'm not the fellow who'd have to do the work and could be entirely and completely mistaken as I'm a few years away now from the inside view I used to have on development - caveat.

This is my hope, that layout gains those “modeling” functions that are simply impossible in modeler in any form. (procedural, animated, etc.) while modeler continues to serve as the traditional modeling workhorse.

My concern, and one that hasn’t been addressed to my satisfaction at least, is whether we are actually any closer to ANY sort of geometry creation in layout. I, and others have been fishing for hints Such as whether any of the new features in layout, for example primitives, do any sort of geometry creation, or of the sdk allows brave plugin developers to dip their toes into the geometry creation waters. The response from developers has been either a clear no (as is the case with primitives which aren’t geometry at all), or in the case of sdk stuff cagey at best.

I would love for a developer to explain what is missing before geometry generation tools are possible in layout. Are we still years of work away from that being a possibility or are we just an interface away?

Kaptive
12-15-2017, 03:10 PM
i purchased Modo last year, since that time as a simple user I had the opportunity to hear live talk between Modo developers regarding what they are doing what they would like to have, where are they going etc

You know, actually, this is exactly the sort of thing that would work really well for LW too. More like a roundtable where they don't have to talk about what they are going to be doing directly or specifically; but more (for example) about what changes made to certain aspects of the code mean in terms of future possibilities and potential direction. This would lead to some interesting community conversations that I'd hope the Dev leads would keep an eye on (maybe even interact with, but not required) so they can get a good idea of what really gets people excited.... leading to where the most thrust is focused in terms of development.
Being excited to create is actually the most important feature(?) of any tool. You don't get excited about a tool, more the potential of what you can do with it.

Plus, if it was held 2-4 times a year, then it is also an opportunity to drop the occasional suprise/offer/promotion/sneak preview of upcoming features etc.

I imagine that the biggest constraint (recent history withstanding) is making the time (consistently) to maintain communication. Talking in forums can be very time consuming. However, an hour long conversation a few times a year is really easy and would reduce the need for more direct interaction (like on here) where everyone has totally different ideas and needs (leading to circular discussions that probably wouldn't benefit the developers much... or us.)

The only thing that might make a dev podcast/roundtable more difficult is geo location of the team... I might be wrong, but I remember reading somewhere that some of the devs are in several different countries and not all under one roof. But still, not such a barrier these days.
Anyway, just open thoughts for the hat (if there is an actual hat). What NT decide to do, is of course entirely up to them. Note: This isn't an opening to harp on about the past and the same old comment about history regurgitated again for the 1000th time. :) It doesn't need refreshing. It is possible to just talk about the future sometimes... it is more interesting and inspiring.


p.s. All you crazy fools going on about getting modeler into layout... pshhhh... you have it all backwards, we need to be getting layout into modeler instead. :D

Dillon
12-15-2017, 03:30 PM
This is pretty weird.

Rob and co. apparently delivered on their promise to do a ton of work to swap out the old/ancient geo engine, and delivered on everything stated in the blog as well.

I don't understand why NT and Rob apparently had divergent views on how LW was supposed to mature.

I also don't understand why this happened 3 times now. Peeber/Hastings/Ferguson and Co. left because of a managerial disagreement regarding LW's path forward. And thus, Modo was born.

Then the whole core fiasco. Nope, Jay Roth is gone.

This is an uneasy pattern to be witnessing.

Anyways, glad Rob and Co. were successful in getting the geo engine replaced.



As do we all. Even when people's aspirations for LW differ, those intentions are always sincerely held and carried out with passion.

erikals
12-15-2017, 04:57 PM
This is pretty weird.

Rob and co. apparently delivered on their promise to do a ton of work to swap out the old/ancient geo engine, and delivered on everything stated in the blog as well.

I don't understand why NT and Rob apparently had divergent views on how LW was supposed to mature.

I also don't understand why this happened 3 times now. Peeber/Hastings/Ferguson and Co. left because of a managerial disagreement regarding LW's path forward. And thus, Modo was born.

Then the whole core fiasco. Nope, Jay Roth is gone.

This is an uneasy pattern to be witnessing.

seems a bit strange indeed.
i can see why it happened the first time. they simply had different opinions.
the second Core time. well, the product didn't deliver.
this time around, LW2018, not sure, does this mean the final code is once again clutter?

impossible to say/guess.

we're forced to wait for an answer. we might never get it. and maybe there will be a M/L split 4ever...

edit update: Chuck basically answer's the post here >
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?155330-LightWave-2018-Announcement-Discussion-Thread&p=1527767&viewfull=1#post1527767

gar26lw
12-15-2017, 05:46 PM
so any suggestions on a replacement? at this point i’d like the community to be heading things up.

TheLexx
12-15-2017, 06:22 PM
so any suggestions on a replacement? at this point i’d like the community to be heading things up.

I might have misunderstood, but are you suggesting the forum members have a role in Rob's replacement ? If so, then not at all - strictly their business.

3D Kiwi
12-15-2017, 06:37 PM
so any suggestions on a replacement? at this point i’d like the community to be heading things up.

There was this one guy... Brad something???

gar26lw
12-15-2017, 06:37 PM
A little communication can go a long way. No state secrets, just some talk. Like maybe "Hey guys! Did you know you could do this with a node and a light." Or better yet how about a 5 minute podcast every couple weeks or so. LW is a good package - talk about it. :)

someone should do the spinning light trick in 2018, for all the millennials.

gar26lw
12-15-2017, 06:41 PM
I might have misunderstood, but are you suggesting the forum members have a role in Rob's replacement ? If so, then not at all - strictly their business.

no, i mean we give input to features and help shape those features. even vote on some things and put forward constructive comments to argue for and against a feature. the dev team decides what goes in and gets worked on but there is no one guy or girl dictating from behind the curtain.

an example. i really want undo working before modeller intergration.
actually, i’d like animation features before modeller intergration.
in fact, i’d like modeller features before modeller intergration.
if a lot feel the same way, move intergration down the list and move up other features in priority for the next updates.

erikals
12-15-2017, 06:42 PM
aaanyway....

i've pretty much got confirmed the huge changes to LW2018 the last 24 hours,
from misc sources... and from what they all say, the road looks bright for future LightWave development.

as for M/L split, we'll just have to wait and see, unless NT throws a bone.

i think this pretty much sums it up.
with that in mind, unsubscribing from these threads, and jumping back to the "what can LightWave do" threads.

https://i.imgur.com/VdDIKfQ.gif

TheLexx
12-15-2017, 06:57 PM
no, i mean we give input to features and help shape those features....

Ah, thanks for clarifying. Anything animation is always fine by me. I'm very interested in the new skin and hair (and PBR!). Exciting times. :)

c.1
12-15-2017, 09:05 PM
138887

SBowie
12-15-2017, 09:50 PM
Well here's your roadmap. There likely isn't one anymore. From Rob Powers 4 hours ago on facebook"As I have written elsewhere in these forums, we will not be entertaining discussion of this matter here. Trust me on this, and don't waste your time writing a lot of verbiage that will vanish before your very eyes.

spigolo
12-16-2017, 12:58 AM
So finally thanks to Rob statement on facebook we know that there is no roadmap...probably at Newtek someone wake up in the morning and start coding something depending on his morning inspiration...Poor us!

CaptainMarlowe
12-16-2017, 01:14 AM
So finally thanks to Rob statement on facebook we know that there is no roadmap...probably at Newtek someone wake up in the morning and start coding something depending on his morning inspiration...Poor us!
No we don't. We just know Rob has stated there is no roadmap, which is, really, his own view of the story, and since NT won't comment it, only insiders will have a clue of wether it's the truth or not. I sincerely regret Rob's post on FB. He should have stayed quiet, because he knew this post would be harmful and that NT couldn't respond.
In a way, he just spilled oil on the fire. Very sad.

gar26lw
12-16-2017, 01:33 AM
i don’t see a problem, i think he wanted to communicate his side. always two sides to the story. if it perks some change we will all benefit; newtek and newtek’s customers.

- - - Updated - - -


So finally thanks to Rob statement on facebook we know that there is no roadmap...probably at Newtek someone wake up in the morning and start coding something depending on his morning inspiration...Poor us!

yeah i hope things get coded based on what we the users need and not what coders want to do cos it’s interesting for them. big mistake.

spigolo
12-16-2017, 01:45 AM
Why Newtek can't respond? They can show us a clear roadmap or at least a vision, and a reasonable timeline...
But my fear is that Lw developer are just a few but without a vision we will have pieces of software developed but not a clear direction where to go.
See Modo for instance, they said version 11 will be focused on modelling and performance and after 1 year they delivered that, they didn't said the details but we knew they were going in that direction, now we know that future Modo 12 will be focused more on the animation side...etc. etc.
Lightwave is still very efficient for many tasks but only us old user know it, new generation to be attracted by Lightwave need something more appealing and Lightwave is no more in a leader position to be quiet and then astonish the crowd with new releases like in the past..I know that this Lw 2018 is a big giant leap for Lw but at the same time I feel that it could be the last breath of the software if things in the developement and communication with users will not changes soon.

GandB
12-16-2017, 06:34 AM
^^ Exactly.

gar26lw
12-16-2017, 06:41 AM
i think they have bought some time but need to remember :
“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

we’ve most likely all done it in our own businesses. maybe we are doing it now expecting NT to listen and change?

SBowie
12-16-2017, 07:17 AM
iIhink they have bought some time but need to remember : “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

we’ve most likely all done it in our own businesses. maybe we are doing it now expecting NT to listen and change?Consider that NewTek did just make a change. Someone will say, yes but you've made several before, and it hasn't helped. Or it may just be that each one moved things along for some years. Regardless, if you think about it, the change some are asking for now is to stop making changes. I mention this to highlight that no matter what decisions are made, there will be those with another case to argue.

Some on the outside may think this change was not for the best. Only those on the inside will really know what brought it about, and whether it was necessary, or justified, or not. And even then there are shades of gray, including shades of gray, aspects of benefit and aspects of loss.

NewTek always listens. Then it considers what seems to be possible. Then it does what it can.

gar26lw
12-16-2017, 07:47 AM
Consider that NewTek did just make a change. Someone will say, yes but you've made several before, and it hasn't helped. Or it may just be that each one moved things along for some years. Regardless, if you think about it, the change some are asking for now is to stop making changes. I mention this to highlight that no matter what decisions are made, there will be those with another case to argue.

Some on the outside may think this change was not for the best. Only those on the inside will really know what brought it about, and whether it was necessary, or justified, or not. And even then there are shades of gray, including shades of gray, aspects of benefit and aspects of loss.

NewTek always listens. Then it considers what seems to be possible. Then it does what it can.

whenever you reply, my overwhelming impresssion is that you’re the right stuff ;)

fablefox
12-16-2017, 07:57 AM
whenever you reply, my overwhelming impresssion is that you’re the right stuff ;)

I agree on this. Hanging here back when I first bought LW, and came back here once in a while when there is a new version out, I admit SBowie managed to keep this forum together no matter what is the circumstances going through it.

GandB
12-16-2017, 08:00 AM
As a moderator for a game dev company's Forums (since '05); I can say it's definitely not easy, and Steve has done a great job. It's often a thankless job that drains your free time, so kudos to him.

TheLexx
12-16-2017, 08:18 AM
After Mr Cross posted, a few people were like "WTF ? They're working on a new renderer ? Oh no, what a waste of time. It's CPU There's Octane. It's obsolete already. What about...this...or that ?". NT judged their reasons and it looks pretty darn good. And then there is the subtle stuff, like by overhauling that enables them to do other things easier in the future.....as part of their internal roadmap. Now how would such an enormous task have looked if it had been mentioned 24 months previously as a published roadmap ? Surely they shouldn't have to work always on the defensive and bunkered down under a siege mentality.

Rob once said that LW kept in mind one guy to permanently own the software and do it end to end. Chuck gives the anecdote about losing the next customer by not having the exact tool, which I feel maybe went over the head of a few. I think both fit.

Asticles
12-16-2017, 08:41 AM
After Mr Cross posted, a few people were like "WTF ? They're working on a new renderer ? Oh no, what a waste of time. It's CPU There's Octane. It's obsolete already. What about...this...or that ?". NT judged their reasons and it looks pretty darn good. And then there is the subtle stuff, like by overhauling that enables them to do other things easier in the future.....as part of their internal roadmap. Now how would such an enormous task have looked if it had been mentioned 24 months previously as a published roadmap ? Surely they shouldn't have to work always on the defensive and bunkered down under a siege mentality.

Rob once said that LW kept in mind one guy to permanently own the software and do it end to end. Chuck gives the anecdote about losing the next customer by not having the exact tool, which I feel maybe went over the head of a few. I think both fit.

I disagree with you. The render engine modernization has to be done. Anyway, you will be able to continue using octane.

TheLexx
12-16-2017, 08:45 AM
I disagree with you. The render engine modernization has to be done. Anyway, you will be able to continue using octane.

Maybe I did not express myself very well. I am very, very impressed with what they did and totally supported their efforts. :)

CaptainMarlowe
12-16-2017, 08:50 AM
Maybe I did not express myself very well. I am very, very impressed with what they did and fully supported it. :)

So do I. Being on Mac with AMD cards, no Octane for me. PBR renderer is a huge step forward, most expected and welcome.

ianr
12-16-2017, 09:07 AM
My bet is protests might be the biggest player in that game of thrones, you guys (I don't mean just the ones writing here just now, but the rest of moob) made a year of the most damaging propaganda any product could possibly have. if you dont want to migrate and you want your skills to stay current, stop preventing adoption with those rivers of drama.
Does anyone consider planing, coding and testing does takes time? maybe LW2018 is just the part of NEXT which is ready, they did change the geometry engine, getting read of modeler is closer than ever. they did say this was the direction. There is a roadmap.

I was kicked out of Softimage, Maya (in europe costs 300€/month), Messiah went abandoneware... Those are real problems, LW is just under a slow development curve because of an architecture change.

We can continue this so new users freak out, or try to be constructive. Up to you.


FABULOUS COMMENT under GRACE should be Sticky.

jasonwestmas
12-16-2017, 09:50 AM
Well, there is a road map, it's just not as detailed as we would like. Their destination is to get all the old geometry crap out of lightwave and get a strong deformation and animation system in there (which needs the new geometry architecture first) and unify lightwave with all geometry calculations included. Unfortunately and fortunately they put a ton of effort into this new PBR render engine in there as well and so this company is spread rather thinly making things take forever it seems.

erikals
12-16-2017, 10:03 AM
at least we now got confirmed that it is 100% sure that the Modeler / Layout merge is now 100% uncertain.

there's nothing you can do to receive a dedicated roadmap.

not what we hoped, however, i can certainly see how giving a dedicated roadmap can be a big risk.



so. sit down. relax. wait for 2-3 years. drink some tea.

https://i.imgur.com/whsgG7I.png

jasonwestmas
12-16-2017, 10:32 AM
so. sit down. relax. wait for 2-3 years. drink some tea.

https://i.imgur.com/whsgG7I.png

and maybe not put all our eggs in one basket? Maybe? kinda-sorta?

samurai_x
12-16-2017, 10:37 AM
at least we now got confirmed that it is 100% sure that the Modeler / Layout merge is now 100% uncertain.

there's nothing you can do to receive a dedicated roadmap.


I'm in that last stage I think its acceptance.
There will never be unification.
Not while some lw people(staff and users) who can't imagine working in a unified environment still exist. :D
Procrastinating, don't want to do it, no resources to do it. Whatever reason. Its never happening.

So that layout camera in modeler. I'm more interested in that than the new renderer. How fast does it work and help boost productivity?

erikals
12-16-2017, 11:09 AM
and maybe not put all our eggs in one basket? Maybe? kinda-sorta?
generalists can be fine just using Blender/LightWave.
i've been to studios that only focused on Maya/Max, and pushed other apps off the table.

so, yes, it depends. i'll stick to LW for now it seems. (+Blender/Houdini for this that)
not going to learn a total new app from A to Z though. ain't got time, maybe if i was 25.


So that layout camera in modeler...
curious about this also. its a nice compensation. then let's see what road NT takes in regards to M/L

SBowie
12-16-2017, 11:23 AM
After Mr Cross posted, a few people were like "WTF ? They're working on a new renderer ? Oh no, what a waste of time. It's CPU There's Octane. It's obsolete already. What about...this...or that ?". NT judged their reasons and it looks pretty darn good. And then there is the subtle stuff, like by overhauling that enables them to do other things easier in the future.....as part of their internal roadmap. Now how would such an enormous task have looked if it had been mentioned 24 months previously as a published roadmap ? Surely they shouldn't have to work always on the defensive and bunkered down under a siege mentality.

Rob once said that LW kept in mind one guy to permanently own the software and do it end to end. Chuck gives the anecdote about losing the next customer by not having the exact tool, which I feel maybe went over the head of a few. I think both fit.


I disagree with you. The render engine modernization has to be done. Anyway, you will be able to continue using octane.

I may be misreading this, but I think you guys are actually agreeing with one another ... so maybe someone else misread.

JamesCurtis
12-16-2017, 11:25 AM
Yeah, I'm 62 and semi-retired due to medical reasons, but want to keep my hand in LW as best as I can yet. It's no fun just sitting and watching the boob tube, after all!

Chuck
12-16-2017, 11:26 AM
yeah i hope things get coded based on what we the users need and not what coders want to do cos it’s interesting for them. big mistake.

That's never been how the product is developed. Every bit of the new version is something that someone asked for, or something that needed to be done in order to get to the point of later being able to deliver something that someone asked for. LightWave has a lot of parts and many users have parts they concentrate on. While the team tries to do a good spread of work in each update and each upgrade, yes, it can be the case that there may be some folks who don't feel the parts they concentrate in got anywhere near what they would consider sufficient attention. If the team did not manage to get to the areas you use this time, they will in future.

For LightWave 2018, designing and implementing the unified mesh engine has implications for every task you can do in LightWave. It has implications for both one app that can do everything for 3D production, and for a more powerful, state-of-the-art dedicated modeler. (That's not a roadmap, not a projection, not a promise, just a comment on potential based on my knowledge of the product as a past project manager.)

Asticles
12-16-2017, 11:29 AM
I may be misreading this, but I think you guys are actually agreeing with one another ... so maybe someone else misread.

Sorry TheLexx, it was my fault, I misread.
Thanks for noting this SBowie.

SBowie
12-16-2017, 11:31 AM
Thanks for noting this SBowie.Meh, easy to do. As soon as I am perfect, y'all are going to find me impossible to deal with. This may be some ways off yet, though.

erikals
12-16-2017, 12:35 PM
might as well share the thoughts in regards to Roadmaps and the M/L split in this forum also.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNhRqcmnl5A

jboudreau
12-16-2017, 01:05 PM
might as well share the thoughts in regards to Roadmaps and the M/L split in this forum also.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNhRqcmnl5A

I'm not sure if you really demonstrated why you would need unification of the two apps. I mean if we now have the layout camera in modeler that will help a lot with what you just showed. I really don't see why you would have to go back and forth from modeler to layout as much as you are saying especially with the new layout camera view in modeler.

Why would you have to go into layout to see what changes you made to the model when you are now seeing layout in modeler especially with the revised OpenGL that shows all the shaders, PBR etc now in modeler?

I can definitely see what you are saying before we got the new layout camera view. It was definitely a bit of a pain going back and forth trying to match what you see in layout.

I really think where the separate apps falls short is when you want to animate, points, polygons etc. We are basically stuck to the old endo morph method.

I think if the Newtek team can give us full access to points, polygons, edges with fall offs, snapping etc and animation capability in layout there would be no need for a unified app.

MAUROCOR
12-16-2017, 01:08 PM
(That's not a roadmap, not a projection, not a promise, just a comment on potential based on my knowledge of the product as a past project manager.)

WOW, you guys do have problems with roadmaps, don´t you?

I would like to know what you have to say (it is not necessary a roadmap, just a prediction) about UNIFICATION. Because now that Rob is gone with HIS roadmap will it happen some day? Is it still a plan?

erikals
12-16-2017, 01:35 PM
"Why would you have to go into layout to see what changes you made to the model when you are now seeing layout in modeler especially with the revised OpenGL that shows all the shaders, PBR etc now in modeler?"

hopefully LW2018 will solve much with camera inside Modeler (i was among the first, to bring that up to Rob, publicly at least)
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?129590-Lightwave-11-5&p=1268963#post1268963


"I think if the Newtek team can give us full access to points, polygons, edges with fall offs, snapping etc and animation capability in layout there would be no need for a unified app."

sure, that would help tons. why on earth chose to maintain two applications though, when 1 could rule it all. it is much less code-clutter / maintenance using 1 app only. there's simply no logic in having it split, unless you model / animate spaceships only.

hypersuperduper
12-16-2017, 01:42 PM
How much do we honestly know of the old plan really? Seemed more like a high level vision to me. What were the steps? How long was it supposed to take? New geometry engine, sure it seems great. however, I am not convinced it brought lightwave measurably closer to unification. I for one wouldn’t mind a period where lightwave receives frequent incremental updates and helpful workflow improvements instead of lofty promises, structural changes, and absurdly long development times. I am glad that the old leadership took the bold choice to make serious fundamental changes. They were sorely needed, but it took way too long, and it is hard to see any scenario in which lightwave would have become a unified application within the next decade at that rate, during which time we would have dealt with long periods with no bug fixes, that resulted in releases that didn’t address users needs in the here and now, only the future, or a 2015 vision of the future. If that was the plan it doesn’t strike me as a very good plan.

jboudreau
12-16-2017, 01:42 PM
hopefully LW2018 will solve much with camera inside Modeler (i was among the first, or perhaps "the" first to bring that up to Rob, publicly at least)
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?129590-Lightwave-11-5&p=1268963#post1268963

Yes Hopefully it does. I guess we will see once the demo is released.


sure, that would help tons. why on earth chose to maintain two applications though, when 1 could rule it all. it is much less code-clutter / maintenance using 1 app only. there's simply no logic in having it split, unless you model / animate spaceships only.

Because it would probably take a complete re-write of the whole software since modeler and Layout are totally different code based. Which would probably put lightwave further back than it is now. I really don't think it can be done to be honest. Rob thought the cyborg approach would work which was a great analogy but probably not practical. I think once they really looked at the code etc the real engineers and developers probably said sorry but this is not going to work, and would be impossible to do without re-writing the whole software from scratch which would take a very long time and that would probably be the end of lightwave

jboudreau
12-16-2017, 01:53 PM
How much do we honestly know of the old plan really? Seemed more like a high level vision to me. What were the steps? How long was it supposed to take? New geometry engine, sure it seems great. however, I am not convinced it brought lightwave measurably closer to unification. I for one wouldn’t mind a period where lightwave receives frequent incremental updates and helpful workflow improvements instead of lofty promises, structural changes, and absurdly long development times. I am glad that the old leadership took the bold choice to make serious fundamental changes. They were sorely needed, but it took way too long, and it is hard to see any scenario in which lightwave would have become a unified application within the next decade at that rate, during which time we would have dealt with long periods with no bug fixes, that resulted in releases that didn’t address users needs in the here and now, only the future, or a 2015 vision of the future. If that was the plan it doesn’t strike me as a very good plan.

I totally agree

SBowie
12-16-2017, 02:12 PM
I would like to know what you have to say (it is not necessary a roadmap, just a prediction) about UNIFICATION. Because now that Rob is gone with HIS roadmap will it happen some day? Is it still a plan?I'll be happy if any thoughts on the possibility of eventual unification are supplied, too - just to know if it's still a possibility, or perhaps has been abandoned for the foreseeble future would be interesting.

That said, to your point about roadmaps, speaking as a customer let me just say that talk is cheap, and talk of a roadmap cheaper still ... but a proper internal roadmap (which would almost certainly never be released in any detail publicly) would necessarily include substantial and realistic consideration of how the cost of gas and lodgings for the passengers for the duration of the trip is going to be paid.

Sometimes, in the past, it might seem that some of the practical side of these matters has been overlooked, or at least viewed through rose-colored glasses. That certainly turned out to be the case in the Core debacle. Realistic, fact-based projections should thus reasonably be considered mandatory before undertaking such a journey. Any roadmap that omits the latter is not a real roadmap. It's one thing to have "vision", but without the pragmatic bits, a vision is just a fantasy.

Nicolas Jordan
12-16-2017, 03:03 PM
How much do we honestly know of the old plan really? Seemed more like a high level vision to me. What were the steps? How long was it supposed to take? New geometry engine, sure it seems great. however, I am not convinced it brought lightwave measurably closer to unification. I for one wouldn’t mind a period where lightwave receives frequent incremental updates and helpful workflow improvements instead of lofty promises, structural changes, and absurdly long development times. I am glad that the old leadership took the bold choice to make serious fundamental changes. They were sorely needed, but it took way too long, and it is hard to see any scenario in which lightwave would have become a unified application within the next decade at that rate, during which time we would have dealt with long periods with no bug fixes, that resulted in releases that didn’t address users needs in the here and now, only the future, or a 2015 vision of the future. If that was the plan it doesn’t strike me as a very good plan.

I personally think that 3 years between releases was way to long of a wait for bug fixes and features. Hopefully they can figure out a better way going forward and get things on track. Yearly releases would be ideal with smaller bug fix improvement updates inbetween. I also doubt Lightwave is any closer to unification than it was 10 years ago, who knows maybe it is but we don't have any reason to believe otherwise.

adk
12-16-2017, 03:44 PM
I'll be happy if any thoughts on the possibility of eventual unification are supplied, too - just to know if it's still a possibility, or perhaps has been abandoned for the foreseeble future would be interesting...

I'm sure many people here, myself included, would be interested in those very thoughts. Thanks Steve.

After all these numerous attempts of communicating a path, an inkling [fantasies and roadmaps aside] of where LW "might" be expected to head from whoever is guiding the ship is not too onerous I believe.
To say absolutely zero would speak volumes, while an inkling either way would not make LW's current and future states any more / less capable.
And if, as someone mentioned, we're all making our decisions on a release by release basis then where's the harm in that ?

Anyway, kudos to all involved in bringing LW2018 to this stage. No small feat I'm sure.
That obviously includes those no longer with us.
All the best in the adventures ahead.

Chuck
12-16-2017, 04:42 PM
WOW, you guys do have problems with roadmaps, don´t you?

I would like to know what you have to say (it is not necessary a roadmap, just a prediction) about UNIFICATION. Because now that Rob is gone with HIS roadmap will it happen some day? Is it still a plan?

I gave the caveats because I am not not in charge of LightWave development and not entitled to obligate the LightWave team to anything, and just want to do my best to ensure that people will understand that. No other inference should be drawn from that.

I'll pass your question along - I'm not briefed at the executive level and not making the decisions, so I have no information for you. And it isn't roadmaps that anyone here has a problem with. It's making roadmaps public.

prometheus
12-16-2017, 05:18 PM
Personally I suspect it would be a bad move not to engage in talking about lightwave development, visions...or to call it a road map for that matter, I would suspect a serious loss of customers, Especially if communication during updates continuous as it has been from the newtek side currently.

revealing a vision doesn´t have to be full fledged or comprehensive, detailed or finalized, it doesn´t have to be promised, it can be discussed as features listened too, and a vision that both the users and the development team would like to reach or implement.. planned for and looked in for, and with the notion of taking responsibility to simple admitting that a certain feature may not come within that plan, due to limitations, it would be honest, fair and not misleading in any way..and thus a way of gaining trust.

If newtek decides to go for .."we don´t talk about or development" it would just be a sign of not being honest to themself or the customers on what they actually are doing.
just my perspective on it anyway...that´s how I feel about it, and probably many many more folks in the lw community.

Another way would of course be to implement new features in abundancy, and updates so frequently and fast that it is unheard of..that alone will keep folks busy and able to actually follow what is happening behind the scenes.'
Non roadmaps publicly or not blah..blah, the discussion isn´t about wether there is a roadmap internally..which I am most confident there is, I am sure that not a single user here would find it comfortable with a future of another two years of not knowing which tools are worked on.

MonroePoteet
12-16-2017, 05:27 PM
I hardly ever chime in on these discussions, since I tend to bring down condemnation for being on the side of the developers. Having been a professional software engineer for 22+ years with 35 years of overall experience, the problem with the development team saying *anything* about what they're trying to do brings down a huge pile of "squeaky wheel" type customers, who insist that THEIR priorities are EVERYONE's priorities.

So, if LWDG said something like (BUT THEY AREN'T SAYING THIS!! THIS ISN'T ANYTHING BUT AN EXAMPLE!!): "We're thinking about considering a potential rework of the particle system for sometime in the next year or two," my experience is that someone will grab hold of that and interpret it as "you PROMISED us a reworked particle system next year!"

Also, really complex, performance driven software like LW is *hard* to modify. To perform at all well, the code has to be exquisitely "tight", and jiggling one portion of it may really mess up another portion. It's really, really hard to do!

I feel certain as Chuck and SBowie have said, LWDG *want* to succeed. They want a high quality product. They want satisfied customers. But when a "squeaky wheel" customer gets hold of a Vice President and makes their life *miserable* by demanding that their priorities take precedence, it "trickles down" to the development team and literally derails the well-thought-out project plan actually being implemented by the development team to meet the highest priority customer issues.

And, as the old saying goes: "Good, Fast, Cheap: Pick Two". If you want it Good and Fast (note that "Fast" means delivered quickly, not performance), it ain't gonna be Cheap. If you want it Good and Cheap, it won't be Fast. And, if you want Fast and Cheap, it'll be really buggy and perform like molasses.

mTp

prometheus
12-16-2017, 05:36 PM
So, if LWDG said something like (BUT THEY AREN'T SAYING THIS!! THIS ISN'T ANYTHING BUT AN EXAMPLE!!): "We're thinking about considering a potential rework of the particle system for sometime in the next year or two," my experience is that someone will grab hold of that and interpret it as "you PROMISED us a reworked particle system next year!"

mTp

That only reveals that "someone" would be wrong in it´s statement, and if explained well from the development team, they can drag any development demon out of the dark and show it for what it is and was, a feature that in such case simply could not make it after serious tries..which simply could be realized, an honest responsible answer instead of hiding in the dark afraid of how customers may perceive the development agenda.

jasonwestmas
12-16-2017, 05:37 PM
So, if LWDG said something like (BUT THEY AREN'T SAYING THIS!! THIS ISN'T ANYTHING BUT AN EXAMPLE!!): "We're thinking about considering a potential rework of the particle system for sometime in the next year or two," my experience is that someone will grab hold of that and interpret it as "you PROMISED us a reworked particle system next year!"



mTp

The "You Promised" complaint already happens here on a regular basis so. . .Doesn't hurt or help to share, especially at this point. I don't understand the complete silence anymore than anyone else does. LW3DG and newtek are in charge of their products, not us. So they should act like they are in charge and not hide in the shadows.

prometheus
12-16-2017, 05:39 PM
The "You Promised" complaint already happens here on a regular basis so. . .Doesn't hurt or help to share, especially at this point. I don't understand the complete silence anymore than anyone else does. LW3DG and newtek are in charge of their products, not us. So they should act like they are in charge and not hide in the shadows.

Yup..

It also imposes a Question, how will the lightwave team set about to work on features and improvements which has been raised by the users? would the lw team just lurk and extract the questions here and there ...or would
they actually engage in dialog of ..ok guys" we are currently working on the UI" what are youre concerns, or ..we are currently working on implementing new modeling tools in Layout..what are youre concerns etc"
Dialog, communication, a willingness to listen, a willingness to take responsibility for that as well.

MonroePoteet
12-16-2017, 05:42 PM
That only reveals that "someone" would be wrong in it´s statement, and if explained well from the development team, they can drag any development demon out of the dark and show it for what it is and was, a feature that in such case simply could not make it after serious tries..which simply could be realized, an honest responsible answer instead of hiding in the dark afraid of how customers may perceive the development agenda.

So, the development team has to spend time building a layman's description of what's complex about it. Trust me, it takes a LOT of time from development.

mTp

- - - Updated - - -

Going silent again. If you guys have ANY complex development experience, please state your credentials.

mTp

prometheus
12-16-2017, 05:54 PM
So, the development team has to spend time building a layman's description of what's complex about it. Trust me, it takes a LOT of time from development.

mTp

- - - Updated - - -

Going silent again. If you guys have ANY complex development experience, please state your credentials.

mTp

Not following you exactly what you mean about "Laymans description of what´s complex about "it" ?

You know what..there is a defense to all confusions, if they put up a blog, a road map, the very first sentence to set the rules, Any prediction in this roadmap, vision and goals..may change and certain task may not be able to make it as in a promise..it is not a full fledged promise that will result in a 100% result.
The map is however what we currently aim for and here is what we have set up as priority the nearest future, and with that a map that covers some of that..and not 50 years ahead, to make it easier for everyone.
If anyone seriously go in to a debate in rants of.."you guys promised" then it wont take much time to refer to that.

In my eyes..a roadmap shouldn´t be a receipt to any promised feature to the customers, it´s a way of having a dialog and not hiding the development from the users, and a way of having a backbone and being honest about their product.

If the newtek team or the lw team would be honest to say, no sorry ..we just can not implement sculpting for many years now, the obstacles are too difficult currently ..and maybe recommend other options for that, then I would hold the newtek team and the development team in higher esteem, than if they were simply not discussing it, they would be arguing around their real product without any lures that boarders to scams etc, and that I would praise, and for themself it would only gain trust.

I usually tell any women I am horrible at cooking, so if they look for that in a man..I am honest and don´t let them down anyway :) no false expectations, and no misunderstandings.

Edit...a response to clarify why a certain feature can not be implemented, does not really require a full detail description.

MAUROCOR
12-16-2017, 05:54 PM
I gave the caveats because I am not not in charge of LightWave development and not entitled to obligate the LightWave team to anything, and just want to do my best to ensure that people will understand that. No other inference should be drawn from that.

I'll pass your question along - I'm not briefed at the executive level and not making the decisions, so I have no information for you. And it isn't roadmaps that anyone here has a problem with. It's making roadmaps public.

Thank your for your answer. Well, I am not asking for dates, deadlines or something. I just want to know if unification still are in the NT plans. Core was a promisse of a unificated app and failed, when Rob took the control he said it was in the plans. But he leave and took his vision with him. So if still there is an internal plan I would like to know if unification is there. And please, I am looking for some better feedback than "casually it will happen".

MichaelT
12-16-2017, 05:57 PM
Mobile games, Building realtime monitoring system over telcom billing system. Dynamic monitoring systems (for something I can't talk about) 3D tools for game developers. Game engines. Something I've been doing for 20 years. Good enough? Christ... asking people for credentials... sheeesh. As if there aren't people here who can code. I can assure you there are.

It really doesn't take that much time to do a bullet list of things, in order to present an overall image. This only need to be done once (and something needing to be done anyway for internal planning) And... it's something most developers do at least once a month anyway. I very much doubt people here are asking for more either. What they really are concerned about, is being able to make *informed* decisions about their business model. That really isn't too much to ask for. This is something even Maxon does.. who don't talk about anything at all normally.

Don't believe me? Ok: https://www.maxon.net/en/news/maxon-blog/article/modernizing-and-moving-forward

prometheus
12-16-2017, 06:04 PM
Mobile games, Building realtime monitoring system over telcom billing system. Dynamic monitoring systems (for something I can't talk about) 3D tools for game developers. Game engines. Something I've been doing for 20 years. Good enough? Christ... asking people for credentials... sheeesh. As if there aren't people here who can code. I can assure you there are.

It really doesn't take that much time to do a bullet list of things, in order to present an overall image. This only need to be done once (and something needing to be done anyway for internal planning) And... it's something most developers do at least once a month anyway. I very much doubt people here are asking for more either. What they really are concerned about, is being able to make *informed* decisions about their business model. That really isn't too much to ask for. This is something even Maxon does.. who don't talk about anything at all normally.

Don't believe me? Ok: https://www.maxon.net/en/news/maxon-blog/article/modernizing-and-moving-forward

Yup +1

gjjackson
12-16-2017, 06:05 PM
For all those writing about developers. Answer how long does it take to write one line of code.

JohnMarchant
12-16-2017, 06:05 PM
I hardly ever chime in on these discussions, since I tend to bring down condemnation for being on the side of the developers. Having been a professional software engineer for 22+ years with 35 years of overall experience, the problem with the development team saying *anything* about what they're trying to do brings down a huge pile of "squeaky wheel" type customers, who insist that THEIR priorities are EVERYONE's priorities.

So, if LWDG said something like (BUT THEY AREN'T SAYING THIS!! THIS ISN'T ANYTHING BUT AN EXAMPLE!!): "We're thinking about considering a potential rework of the particle system for sometime in the next year or two," my experience is that someone will grab hold of that and interpret it as "you PROMISED us a reworked particle system next year!"

Also, really complex, performance driven software like LW is *hard* to modify. To perform at all well, the code has to be exquisitely "tight", and jiggling one portion of it may really mess up another portion. It's really, really hard to do!

I feel certain as Chuck and SBowie have said, LWDG *want* to succeed. They want a high quality product. They want satisfied customers. But when a "squeaky wheel" customer gets hold of a Vice President and makes their life *miserable* by demanding that their priorities take precedence, it "trickles down" to the development team and literally derails the well-thought-out project plan actually being implemented by the development team to meet the highest priority customer issues.

And, as the old saying goes: "Good, Fast, Cheap: Pick Two". If you want it Good and Fast (note that "Fast" means delivered quickly, not performance), it ain't gonna be Cheap. If you want it Good and Cheap, it won't be Fast. And, if you want Fast and Cheap, it'll be really buggy and perform like molasses.

mTp

Probably about the lamest excuse i could think of. Many other companies, give insights, way forward, roadmaps, call it what you will. Yes sometimes it can turn into a bit of a whingefest and it wont please everyone but at least it gives you something to plan on and make future purchasing decissions.

I suspect the reason why LWG3D/NT are quiet is because of past problems and promises that are percieved to not have been delivered or not in the way expected.

Yes programming is hard and especially 3d software, but many other companies manage to do it and communicate well. Hell look at Autodesk, its got a whole new set of problems with its licensing costs and such, but at least they are talking to the customers, even if the customers dont like what they are hearing.

Blender is free and they can provide a roadmap, way ahead and talk to their customers and the customers dont even pay for their software.

prometheus
12-16-2017, 06:06 PM
then again...we all end up in Rome

GraphXs
12-16-2017, 06:11 PM
I think a good forward approch is to show stuff when it is close to ready. So for example if they had an edit mesh system in layouts future and had selection for points polys and edges....(and it was stable/tested) show it to the public. It would also be great if these just became small releases/updates along the way. So no more "full" releases...just on going releases. Though i know that doesn't work with the current non subscription way.

I'm sure they will have some roadmap. Until then we will get to enjoy 2018! Congrats on getting it done!

MichaelT
12-16-2017, 06:16 PM
For all those writing about developers. Answer how long does it take to write one line of code.

It can take a full day... because sometimes the solution is hard.
It can take a few seconds.. because most often the solution is easy.

gjjackson
12-16-2017, 06:20 PM
It can take a full day... because sometimes the solution is hard.
It can take a few seconds.. because most often the solution is easy.

That's not how the question is answered.

MichaelT
12-16-2017, 06:22 PM
That's not how the question is answered.

I just did. Because there is no set answer to an arbitrary question. :)

samurai_x
12-16-2017, 06:22 PM
Thank your for your answer. Well, I am not asking for dates, deadlines or something. I just want to know if unification still are in the NT plans. Core was a promisse of a unificated app and failed, when Rob took the control he said it was in the plans. But he leave and took his vision with him. So if still there is an internal plan I would like to know if unification is there. And please, I am looking for some better feedback than "casually it will happen".

Time to accept. NT is not capable.

Brad and luxo gang wanted to do it. Fail.
They tried to do it bringing in modelling tools in lw9. Fail.
Started Core. Fail.
Rob's plan. Fail.
10 years from now maybe, but history already gave them more than 10 to do it. Fail.
Lw userbase will be pushing +60 years average. They worry more about urination. :D

TheLexx
12-16-2017, 06:34 PM
Don't believe me? Ok: https://www.maxon.net/en/news/maxon-blog/article/modernizing-and-moving-forward
But that's just Maxon saying what they are not going to do isn't it (though useful for 4D users to know) ?

The thing which is a bit odd is that we all saw umpteen threads and hundreds of pages (admittedly fun reads at times :D) clamouring for LW Next. It then gets announced called LW 2018, but this thread could now be renamed, " Never mind LW2018, what is in LW2021 ? ". That's what I'm finding odd.

I think I know the cause - it was done with a certain style, an element of a big room full of people all baying for release, then Newtek quietly slip an envelope under the door, which someone opens three hours later...only to find LW 2018 was inside all the time, and it's like, "How dare they ? Why didn't they tell us they were going to do that ?". That's actually funny in some ways (and I can think of reasons too).

Many of you are such long-term, experienced users, can I ask if your curiosity of LW Next (or should that be LW Next Next) is greater than your excitement for LW2018 ? Personally I find it electrifying that in around just 15 days from now it will be out. :)



So if still there is an internal plan I would like to know if unification is there. And please, I am looking for some better feedback than "casually it will happen".The thing is Maurocor, if they say, "Yes", then human nature being what it is, people will expect unification the very next release, so they could only say "Sometime" which is the one answer no one wants, which brings it all back to saying nothing. :)

prometheus
12-16-2017, 06:49 PM
Lw userbase will be pushing +60 years average. They worry more about urination. :D

I do worry about that already since I go up 5 times at night for that, despite my young age of 52, this is however a topic that has no relevance what so ever with this thread or something for this forum, in other universes this topic may be of more relevance and more interesting, let me know when you find a dedicated forum where we can discuss these urgent matters, it may help me sleep better at night.

Wickedpup
12-16-2017, 06:55 PM
I hardly ever chime in on these discussions, since I tend to bring down condemnation for being on the side of the developers. Having been a professional software engineer for 22+ years with 35 years of overall experience, the problem with the development team saying *anything* about what they're trying to do brings down a huge pile of "squeaky wheel" type customers, who insist that THEIR priorities are EVERYONE's priorities.

"squeaky wheel" customers are everywhere. AFAIC see it´s only Newtek that has "issues" with handling them......

SBowie
12-16-2017, 06:56 PM
revealing a vision doesn´t have to be full fledged or comprehensive, detailed or finalized, it doesn´t have to be promised, it can be discussed as features listened too, and a vision that both the users and the development team would like to reach or implement.. planned for and looked in for, and with the notion of taking responsibility to simple admitting that a certain feature may not come within that plan, due to limitations, it would be honest, fair and not misleading in any way..and thus a way of gaining trust.Not that I have any say, but I'm all for a measure of 'engagement' that enhances but does not interfere with development ... but I have to respectfully disagree with most of the above. We've seen many times here that anything that can be misinterpreted will be, endless. It's simply not worth the time spent debating the assumptions and ever more detailed queries that inevitably follow.

Snosrap
12-16-2017, 06:58 PM
Unfortunately and fortunately they put a ton of effort into this new PBR render engine in there as well and so this company is spread rather thinly making things take forever it seems.

I don't think "spread thin" is the issue. The dev team is made up of individuals with certain expertise in various areas so for example what would you expect a rendering developer do when the geometry guy is working on the geo engine? I think the only area where they are thin is a modeling guy - that job has been posted forever.

MichaelT
12-16-2017, 07:03 PM
But that's just Maxon saying what they are not going to do isn't it (though useful for 4D users to know) ?


It is useful.. because when things are taken away (as in this case) they have ample time to prepare for the change. As a business it is good to know these things.
These things are actually more important than new features.. they have no idea about are coming. Also.. you get to see that there are things happening. Which is
good in and of itself :)

But please don't see this as me being unhappy about the new release.. I most definitely am not ;)

SBowie
12-16-2017, 07:05 PM
The "You Promised" complaint already happens here on a regular basis so. . .Doesn't hurt or help to share, especially at this point. I don't understand the complete silence anymore than anyone else does. LW3DG and newtek are in charge of their products, not us. So they should act like they are in charge and not hide in the shadows.No one is presently suggesting that complete silence is a good thing, or planned. We have seen more of the actual developers this week than for the entire previous year...but we're already back to trying to drive them off.

samurai_x
12-16-2017, 07:07 PM
I don't think "spread thin" is the issue. The dev team is made up of individuals with certain expertise in various areas so for example what would you expect a rendering developer do when the geometry guy is working on the geo engine? I think the only area where they are thin is a modeling guy - that job has been posted forever.

They should hire someone that has more talent if they're willing to spend the money. I think they don't want to spend money on lw.
Example, Andrew from 3dcoat can do anything. Not just rendering, not just the core architecture of the app. He built his own game engine with animation before 3dcoat.
He can do anything, he is talented.

prometheus
12-16-2017, 07:09 PM
Not that I have any say, but I'm all for a measure of 'engagement' that enhances but does not interfere with development ... but I have to respectfully disagree with most of the above. We've seen many times here that anything that can be misinterpreted will be, endless. It's simply not worth the time spent debating the assumptions and ever more detailed queries that inevitably follow.

Welll.we can agree to disagree here sure.
Well Sbowie, I disagree whole heartly with you, In my mind..I would think it is Newteks and Lightwave´s team to simply take the responsibility to avoid misinterpretations, not resorting to "it takes to much time" and fear of misinterpretation, it may very well be so that there is misinterpretation inevitable, but that is a common streak in almost everything in life, you do not hide from life as well, it´s in politics, it´s in art...it´s everywhere..

If I would try and make a masterpiece, I surely wouldnt make a blank page or a black painting only...due to the fear of misinterpretation, maybe that is a bit drastic to use as analogy...but I am sorry, I really fail to see why a hidden way of development would be better than the opposite.

If it takes that path in the upcoming years, I will be afraid I myself will eventually shy away from lightwave( though it may very well be on the drives and used for quite a while) and not many users I believe will Ever find trust in newtek further ahead really, it´s not that black and white as it would be simply good or bad, but I think there will be a measure duel between the hidden path of development and the trust customers will have in Lightwave development, and where I fear the trust in newtek and lightwave will be on the end that seals the fate so to speak.

- - - Updated - - -

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?155376-Sky-system/page2

prometheus
12-16-2017, 07:22 PM
No one is presently suggesting that complete silence is a good thing, or planned. We have seen more of the actual developers this week than for the entire previous year...but we're already back to trying to drive them off.

it´s still most likely due to the historical"infection" a case of lack of communication during the development phase ...that is still residing in most peoples minds when they want to communicate with developers.
I get the perception of this treatment being very similar to a pshycologic analyse of any individuals inner dark side, which in many cases could use a healthy dose of exposing itself, bringing it out in to the light, clean the dirty belly etc...and it will be easier to see it for what it is, walking in a dark forrest has yielded so many trolls and monsters that aren´t really true :)

Something is really not adding up for me here and my gut is telling me that something in the debates around Newtek long silence..which in some comments from newtek seem to say, they don´t know or they can´t discuss it, combined with a dose of ..policy of not discussing development doesn´t sound honest, nor right.

And now to something completely different:)....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0C3DHp36zc

samurai_x
12-16-2017, 07:25 PM
Speaking of roadmaps and silence.

https://s8.postimg.org/ro3h9htx1/image.jpg

https://s8.postimg.org/ankl0ujgl/image.jpg

SBowie
12-16-2017, 07:26 PM
:vticon:
The thing is Maurocor, if they say, "Yes", then human nature being what it is, people will expect unification the very next release, so they could only say "Sometime" which is the one answer no one wants, which brings it all back to saying nothing. :)That's somewhat likely, but I think it overlooks that, while a few would understand the qualified nature of the statement, many would scream for details, others would spend more time writing elaborate posts about why the developers will surely fail than they do taking to their families. Still others would be ranting about how is all a big scam/cash grab, and a large group would be arguing the merits of split apps. We've been there before, this is all undeniable.

SBowie
12-16-2017, 07:31 PM
"squeaky wheel" customers are everywhere. AFAIC see it´s only Newtek that has "issues" with handling them......When I ran my own little business, I fired the odd squeaky wheel customer. I'm delighted to work very hard with someone to meet their needs, but people who think they'll get ever more out of you by shrieking just aren't worth the time or aggravation.

prometheus
12-16-2017, 07:32 PM
:vticon:That's somewhat likely, but I think it overlooks that, while a few would understand the qualified nature of the statement, many would scream for details, others would spend more time writing elaborate posts about why the developers will surely fail than they do taking to their families. Still others would be ranting about how is all a big scam/cash grab, and a large group would be arguing the merits of split apps. We've been there before, this is all undeniable.


elaborate posts like that ..may be unique for Lightwave forums and a couple of others, but how true is that for other forums, like houdini etc?
the so called elaborate examples here seem to indicate specific connections to lightwave, such as merits of split apps, scam as well..since the direction took other turns (core) developers failing etc...there´s no smoke without fire, and it´s also up to newtek to take a responsibility for what they communicate and what they deliver, as a product or crawl back to darkness and silence..with vague hints and hope for the best that such a road would be the best action to keep their customers.

Anyway...all this is just bouncing the ball back and forth without any means to bring clarity to what will come in form of a roadmap, visionary displays, feature discussions etc, in essence it may not be worth spending time discussing it, and simply draw my own internal roadmap of action, not publicly displayed, if newtek doesn´t improve on all this ..so a roadmap to which software developer I will put my trust in henceforward may be needed to avoid further mistakes and dissapointments of investments.

I do hope lightwave 2018 will be stable and have some goodies that helps soothen out a bit of all frustration, though such soothing will loose it charm later anyway when waiting for what is not there and other unknown undevelopment stuff that may show up...

Fear of the unknown you know.
I think Newtek or the Lightwave group needs to find a proper balance if there is something similar to a road map, not go all in on silence nor reveals in vague unclear form, that is a task hard to deliver perhaps, it´s a responsibility ..it´s a way of having good customer relations.

As it stands now..mostly derived from some of Sbowies comments on road maps, it seems that the fear of abundance of misinterpretations of newtek and lightwave teams intentions etc, is blown out of proportions compared to what they have to face regarding loosing customers trust.

SBowie
12-16-2017, 07:41 PM
Speaking of roadmaps and silence.A wonderful example of why we don't allow personal criticism here.

gar26lw
12-16-2017, 07:53 PM
But that's just Maxon saying what they are not going to do isn't it (though useful for 4D users to know) ?

The thing which is a bit odd is that we all saw umpteen threads and hundreds of pages (admittedly fun reads at times :D) clamouring for LW Next. It then gets announced called LW 2018, but this thread could now be renamed, " Never mind LW2018, what is in LW2021 ? ". That's what I'm finding odd.

i think it’s just a symptom of the silent period, the fact that a lot of features are in the competition and that software dev is moving at a fast rate elsewhere, with clearly defined public goals and (gulp) roadmaps.
look at unity, unreal, modo, blender, zbrush.. strangely enough, these same companies are quite succesful and growing. lightwave users want that same success for lw. hence requests. i’d be counting my lucky stars, as it means that people want to invest in lightwave and support it’s future.



Many of you are such long-term, experienced users, can I ask if your curiosity of LW Next (or should that be LW Next Next) is greater than your excitement for LW2018 ? Personally I find it electrifying that in around just 15 days from now it will be out. :)

yes i’m keen to use it too. be great if we could just drop the cash and use it now, if we wanted, to take advantage of xmas hols.

gar26lw
12-16-2017, 07:56 PM
No one is presently suggesting that complete silence is a good thing, or planned. We have seen more of the actual developers this week than for the entire previous year...but we're already back to trying to drive them off.

mmm, yeah i hope we don’t do that. things are moving back to the old days.

gar26lw
12-16-2017, 08:04 PM
:vticon:That's somewhat likely, but I think it overlooks that, while a few would understand the qualified nature of the statement, many would scream for details, others would spend more time writing elaborate posts about why the developers will surely fail than they do taking to their families. Still others would be ranting about how is all a big scam/cash grab, and a large group would be arguing the merits of split apps. We've been there before, this is all undeniable.

so is ther some way to just skip all that and get a conversation devoid of bs? mail devs directly?

hypersuperduper
12-16-2017, 08:18 PM
I for one am not interested in newtek sharing their roadmap or business plan, because right now based on the current situation I suspect the realistic business plan and roadmap is basically “put out the fires and stop losing money”. For me lightwave’s greatest strength is it’s familiarity, and if 2018 gives me a couple more years to rely on a program I am super comfortable with I’ll settle for that for now. Hopefully the improvements in this version will allow newtek to start winning back lost customers and regain a foothold in the industry. Then we can talk roadmaps.

Vastly more important than a roadmap right now are signs of life and vitality, which means lots of updates filled with concrete features that customers need and the team can deliver on time. Less vision, more fixes.

MichaelT
12-16-2017, 08:18 PM
When I ran my own little business, I fired the odd squeaky wheel customer. I'm delighted to work very hard with someone to meet their needs, but people who think they'll get ever more out of you by shrieking just aren't worth the time or aggravation.

That is very very true.

gar26lw
12-16-2017, 08:26 PM
I for one am not interested in newtek sharing their roadmap or business plan, because right now based on the current situation I suspect the realistic business plan and roadmap is basically “put out the fires and stop losing money”. For me lightwave’s greatest strength is it’s familiarity, and if 2018 gives me a couple more years to rely on a program I am super comfortable with I’ll settle for that for now. Hopefully the improvements in this version will allow newtek to start winning back lost customers and regain a foothold in the industry. Then we can talk roadmaps.

Vastly more important than a roadmap right now are signs of life and vitality, which means lots of updates filled with concrete features that customers need and the team can deliver on time. Less vision, more fixes.

we only need a couple of years don’t we, then we all retire anyway? lol

jasonwestmas
12-16-2017, 08:27 PM
Welll.we can agree to disagree here sure.
Well Sbowie, I disagree whole heartly with you, In my mind..I would think it is Newteks and Lightwave´s team to simply take the responsibility to avoid misinterpretations, not resorting to "it takes to much time" and fear of misinterpretation, it may very well be so that there is misinterpretation inevitable, but that is a common streak in almost everything in life, you do not hide from life as well, it´s in politics, it´s in art...it´s everywhere..

If I would try and make a masterpiece, I surely wouldnt make a blank page or a black painting only...due to the fear of misinterpretation, maybe that is a bit drastic to use as analogy...but I am sorry, I really fail to see why a hidden way of development would be better than the opposite.

If it takes that path in the upcoming years, I will be afraid I myself will eventually shy away from lightwave( though it may very well be on the drives and used for quite a while) and not many users I believe will Ever find trust in newtek further ahead really, it´s not that black and white as it would be simply good or bad, but I think there will be a measure duel between the hidden path of development and the trust customers will have in Lightwave development, and where I fear the trust in newtek and lightwave will be on the end that seals the fate so to speak.

- - - Updated - - -

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?155376-Sky-system/page2

Exactly, why should Newtek fear us and how we interpret things; they have the power to make their software look great regardless of our roller coaster feelings about Lightwave. I've seen other companies do it and they all have people who complain about various things, it happens but has little impact on the actual value and popularity of the software imo. When people shy away from me and make it difficult to get excited about what they are doing, I tend to shy away from them. Which has in fact happened these pasts 3 years.

SBowie
12-16-2017, 08:30 PM
so is ther some way to just skip all that and get a conversation devoid of bs? mail devs directly?I can only comment on general terms. On the video side, devs are discouraged from direct participation in the field, to insulate them from time wasting arguments of the sort we've often seen here. But other staffers, including me but also support staff keep a close eye on and engage in discussions.

I'm not sure if there is a policy on the LW side, but the old maxim comes to mind - "You catch more files with honey than with vinegar ". I think devs are like everyone else. Some like to work peacefully on their own, while others would be happy to engage and share a bit. But no one likes to be constantly Haring yes much less be attacked for their efforts.

MichaelT
12-16-2017, 08:34 PM
I can totally relate to that... I'm the work peacefully guy myself. Which is why I hardly ever talk about coding. I used to work as a teacher too in programming, and those individuals who constantly demand attention for the sake of their own ego.. are incredibly taxing to deal with.

SBowie
12-16-2017, 08:40 PM
Exactly, why should Newtek fear us and how we interpret things; they have the power to make their software look great regardless of our roller coaster feelings about Lightwave.This is a small company, with finite resources. People want staff to engage, but when they do are inevitably barraged, sometimes in very nasty terms. With civility and reasonableness, it could be win-win. But more often it has been extremely counter-productive.

jasonwestmas
12-16-2017, 08:46 PM
This is a small company, with finite resources. People want staff to engage, but when they do are inevitably barraged, sometimes in very nasty terms. With civility and reasonableness, it could be win-win. But more often it has been extremely counter-productive.

Yes, I've seen it happen here. . .been around a while. There are ways to handle that I'm sure but it doesn't mean to give up on nice blogs and presentations. I guess LW3DG are getting more tiny by the minute but good communication and promotion of software doesn't have to include 1 on 1 conversations/engagments inside of a forum.

SBowie
12-16-2017, 08:49 PM
There are ways to handle that I'm sure but it doesn't mean to give up on nice blogs and presentations.Agreed.

gar26lw
12-16-2017, 08:51 PM
This is a small company, with finite resources. People want staff to engage, but when they do are inevitably barraged, sometimes in very nasty terms. With civility and reasonableness, it could be win-win. But more often it has been extremely counter-productive.

theres no like button here, so Like!

prometheus
12-16-2017, 08:57 PM
This is a small company, with finite resources. People want staff to engage, but when they do are inevitably barraged, sometimes in very nasty terms. With civility and reasonableness, it could be win-win. But more often it has been extremely counter-productive.

Well..yeah, the future will tell..
hard to depict the future and how that will turn out, none of us sit´s with the hindsight in front of us Now.

It´s ultimately Newteks choice on what level they communicate and analyze how well that turns out, if it helps the sales or not..it´s their task to weigh in and balance the weight of having customers distrust them and loose sales due to having them in the dark around the development, VS how much energy and resources it takes to manage all the questions, the misinterpretation etc and how that affects the trust and sales, that´s a balance and decision they have to take..I would urge them to take this seriously and not staticly go for how they now have made their mind up, but dynamicly look at how to deal with it during the course.

My fear however.. is that will simply not turn out well ..if they are to silent about where the development goes.

- - - Updated - - -


good communication and promotion of software doesn't have to include 1 on 1 conversations/engagments inside of a forum.

Agreed.

MichaelT
12-16-2017, 08:59 PM
All of us here need to be better too... just yelling won't help anything. It takes two to tango.

SBowie
12-16-2017, 09:10 PM
... just yelling won't help anything.It might help someone finding themselves yelling in a different forum, and looking at this one from outside. ;)

m.d.
12-16-2017, 09:43 PM
Roadmaps....a common thing with many 3d content creation products.
Totally doable....no drama. No screaming from the devs.....not during their powerpoint presentations anyway :)

(The most embarrassing part of my last powerpoint presentation was farting myself awake.)

You would think if any dev wanted to not reveal the cutting edge tech they are working on it would be Houdini and Octane...

Houdini
https://www.sidefx.com/community/houdini-roadmap-siggraph-2016/
Blender
https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:2.8/Source/Viewport/Eevee/Roadmap-SeptDec-2017
Octane
https://home.otoy.com/octanerender-3-and-roadmap-update/

Coding experience: a few versions "Hello World" and maybe 4 MEL scripts

prometheus
12-16-2017, 10:14 PM
All of us here need to be better too... just yelling won't help anything. It takes two to tango.

I thought this was a mee too campaign:D
Anyway..who´s yelling? give me the name, I got silver duct tapes ready that is of no use over here.
So Michael is it late night and you have not gone to bed or is it early bird for you :)?

Wickedpup
12-17-2017, 02:27 AM
When I ran my own little business, I fired the odd squeaky wheel customer. I'm delighted to work very hard with someone to meet their needs, but people who think they'll get ever more out of you by shrieking just aren't worth the time or aggravation.

And how did that work out for you? Just curious....and the keyword here being "ran" :question:

Well, I see them over at the Foundry forums too....and they haven´t had any impact on the rate of development, or made the company go dark for an extended period of time......

MichaelT
12-17-2017, 02:36 AM
I thought this was a mee too campaign:D
Anyway..who´s yelling? give me the name, I got silver duct tapes ready that is of no use over here.
So Michael is it late night and you have not gone to bed or is it early bird for you :)?

*cough* I don't know what you're talking about :D

Asticles
12-17-2017, 03:18 AM
Roadmaps....a common thing with many 3d content creation products.
Totally doable....no drama. No screaming from the devs.....not during their powerpoint presentations anyway :)

(The most embarrassing part of my last powerpoint presentation was farting myself awake.)

You would think if any dev wanted to not reveal the cutting edge tech they are working on it would be Houdini and Octane...

Houdini
https://www.sidefx.com/community/houdini-roadmap-siggraph-2016/
Blender
https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:2.8/Source/Viewport/Eevee/Roadmap-SeptDec-2017
Octane
https://home.otoy.com/octanerender-3-and-roadmap-update/

Coding experience: a few versions "Hello World" and maybe 4 MEL scripts

This is not always good. In the case of Octane, they made a lot of hype with the opencl cards. The same happened with thea render.

Modo team said that by the end of the year they will deliver Prorender.

gar26lw
12-17-2017, 03:37 AM
but these companies are delivering, right? most stuff come out. i think it’s all about confidence.

SBowie
12-17-2017, 04:42 AM
And how did that work out for you? Just curious....and the keyword here being "ran" :questionJust fine, thanks. I had a core of loyal repeat customers, and a steady trickle of new ones adequate to my goals.


... and they haven´t had any impact on the rate of development, or made the company go dark for an extended period of time......I feel very comfortable saying that the question of publishing roadmaps had zip to do with 'nightfall'.

bazsa73
12-17-2017, 11:16 AM
I don't care about roadmaps as much as I care about regular communication.

dsol
12-17-2017, 11:18 AM
I'm still catching up with all these threads, but I will say from what I've read so far:

(1) Steve Bowie has the patience of a saint.
(2) I really appreciated Chuck's long response on why NT is not going to release a public roadmap
(3) NT is really cool to allow some of the - sometimes slightly unhinged - opinions on its own forums.

Nobody forces me to use Lightwave. I have a Modo 11 license too, and it's pretty cool. But I keep coming back to Lightwave as it's just faster to work in. Yes it has some issues (especially the undo system) but they're not deal-breakers, and one of the biggest problems - not being able to model from the camera - is at least being partially dealt with in the new release.

We all want Lightwave to be better. 2018 is a big step forward in many areas, but I can see why people are frustrated (especially for the modelling side). Perhaps what might help smooth things out - and make everyone feel a bit better for the future is to say that at some point (when the dust is settled) a statement will be made by whoever is leading Lightwave development, that will clarify the direction of future development.

The closest we've come to that was in the rather candid disclosures by Dave Ikeda a few years ago about his plans to rewrite LW to enable it to become an integrated modern 3D app. He got into trouble for that, but honestly - I think the disclosure really helped dissipate some of the building anger about lack of direction/a roadmap that had been building up then. I'm sure it pissed off the higher-ups, but it was a *good* thing mostly as far as the end users were concerned.

There's nothing worse than relying on a certain tool, and not being sure about its future (just ask Apple Pro customers - who, thank god, finally are getting treated a bit better these days). Lightwave 2018 is a really important release - and I'm really looking forward to using it. But long-term, a candid discussion of what needs to be done - and a clarification of intent, in terms of things like whether LW can ever be rewritten as a unified app and how many years it will likely take - would be a good thing.

People like me, who use LW to make money, don't mind waiting - but we still need to have some hope for the future. Apple finally did it for their pro app users (and pro hardware users) - I hope LW3DG can do something similar.

TheLexx
12-17-2017, 11:28 AM
Good post dsol. Ditto Saint Bowie (though I leave you to inform His Pontiff). I see you are/were connected with "London Lightwave". Does it still meet, or is LALightwave the last group left in the world ? :)

Chuck
12-17-2017, 12:50 PM
I certainly wish what some of you say about people and good communications was true, but it just isn't. The majority of people may understand when a developer makes a conditional or a qualified statement and adds "Subject to change" disclaimers, but you are sitting in the middle of the biggest pool of proof in the universe that there are people who will disregard all of that and call everything mentioned in any capacity and on however theoretical and disclaimed a basis, a "promise," talk about it as a fail, and use it to talk about NewTek collectively and as individuals as failures. You don't have to read these forums very long to find an example of this. You don't have to go outside this thread.

NewTek have fails, but there are also things that some people treated as fails that just simply were no such thing.

I feel like I am about to tell you all something everyone could reasonably have figured out for themselves, so my apologies for those who feel like I am being Captain Obvious, because they had this sorted. At the cusp of a release and when there has also been a departure of personnel, NewTek's executives and communicators have a pile of work to sort out in terms of the product release, the product's management going forward, staffing, re-evaluating existing plans, re-evaluating the market as part of re-evaluating existing plans, and whole lot more. Pushing the community off the topic of a new release and making the conversation about a roadmap and future releases right now absolutely of course can produce nothing but an exercise in total and complete frustration for all involved.

Substantive discussion about the future really just cannot happen right now in the current circumstances. NewTek has a lot to work through to get to that point, and frankly would anyway, even if the situation were as simple as just having the new release to get out.

Here's what can happen now (and is happening):

NewTek LightWave Team members and NewTek Video team members are engaging here and will continue to do so going forward - but please understand it may not be as intensely as right now. Everyone involved has multiple obligations, and you have us way outnumbered.
NewTek LightWave Team members and NewTek Video Marketing team members are working on additional content about the new release for the website. There is material that we already had in mind for this, but we are also compiling your questions and comments from the threads here as a guide to additional ideas.
NewTek LightWave Team members and NewTek Video Marketing team members are working on a new communications plan for the LW3DG.


I didn't mistakenly omit "Marketing" in the first point - some of the folks engaging here in the forum are from other departments on the Video side.

So, people have expressed their views in plenty on the long term without appropriate communications - NewTek owns it, we apologize, we intend not to let such a lapse occur again.

People have also expressed what they want from future communications, executive management is fully aware of the feedback, and NewTek has ducks to line up to reach the point of having the proper responsible personnel sorted out to pursue that topic. So we ask your patience - we'll come back to the discussion when the ducks are lined up, and that would also need to be some amount of time after the release because that has to be "all hands" for a while.

For now we are going to concentrate our efforts on the release materials in preparation, and responding to questions and discussion about the release itself, because that's what we can productively do for you for the moment.

Asticles
12-17-2017, 12:56 PM
+1000

fishhead
12-17-2017, 01:02 PM
No more to say than: Thanks, Chuck!

hypersuperduper
12-17-2017, 01:17 PM
I don’t envy the Newtek employees that got sucked into this to sort out a mess they had nothing to do with just weeks before Christmas, but I am very grateful they are, and I commend them for the professionalism they/you are showing. Thanks!

I look forward to trying out the new version in January. Hopefully everything will seem much brighter with the product in our hands.

TheLexx
12-17-2017, 01:24 PM
+ 1 more.

gjjackson
12-17-2017, 01:55 PM
I usually prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt simply because no one knows all the details. It ends up being nothing more than speculation; when it hasn't even been released as yet. No one really knows what the end product is and make all type of assumptions. I've never seen such impatience. My only question would be, can I buy it now, because I may get busy and forget about it as I don't know if an offer would be sent out at the appropriate time.

jeric_synergy
12-17-2017, 02:00 PM
I think LWG may have overestimated the quality of video customers need to be satisfied.

Frequent quick-and-dirty would trump infrequent highly produced stuff. Just a "GUYS! Guys! We think this is pretty cool!" would be fine.

I think William Vaughn made his quite smooth presentations LOOK easy. I don't for a second think they were. But really, just give us a weekly HINT, especially about non-obvious uses, and we'd all have more constructive stuff to witter on about.

Wickedpup
12-17-2017, 03:01 PM
I feel very comfortable saying that the question of publishing roadmaps had zip to do with 'nightfall'.
When I said "they" I was talking about sqeeky wheel customers. Sorry, should have specified, but I thought that was the topic we were discussing :)

djlithium
12-17-2017, 03:40 PM
No more to say than: Thanks, Chuck!

Yupyup. :)

Don't step in the land mine kitties. Road maps are not business plans. Business plans come first. Get it done NT/LWG - "free at last, free at last, by god almighty we are free at last!"

SBowie
12-17-2017, 04:07 PM
(1) Steve Bowie has the patience of a saint.Thanks for the kind words, but please don't erect a shrine. They are too easily converted into gallows. ;)

SBowie
12-17-2017, 04:10 PM
When I said "they" I was talking about sqeeky wheel customers. Sorry, should have specified, but I thought that was the topic we were discussing :)The thread topic is roadmaps, but I would say it is equally true that shrieky-wheel posts had nothing to do with nightfall. They do bear in the matter of public roadmaps, though.

prometheus
12-17-2017, 04:10 PM
Thanks for the kind words, but please don't erect a shrine. They are too easily converted into gallows. ;)

You better do your best and simply do not fall out of grace, feel no pressure what so ever :D
Have a nice Christmas Steve and enjoy the holidays now.

prometheus
12-17-2017, 04:14 PM
I certainly wish what some of you say about people and good communications was true, but it just isn't. The majority of people may understand when a developer makes a conditional or a qualified statement and adds "Subject to change" disclaimers, but you are sitting in the middle of the biggest pool of proof in the universe that there are people who will disregard all of that and call everything mentioned in any capacity and on however theoretical and disclaimed a basis, a "promise," talk about it as a fail, and use it to talk about NewTek collectively and as individuals as failures. You don't have to read these forums very long to find an example of this. You don't have to go outside this thread.

NewTek have fails, but there are also things that some people treated as fails that just simply were no such thing.

I feel like I am about to tell you all something everyone could reasonably have figured out for themselves, so my apologies for those who feel like I am being Captain Obvious, because they had this sorted. At the cusp of a release and when there has also been a departure of personnel, NewTek's executives and communicators have a pile of work to sort out in terms of the product release, the product's management going forward, staffing, re-evaluating existing plans, re-evaluating the market as part of re-evaluating existing plans, and whole lot more. Pushing the community off the topic of a new release and making the conversation about a roadmap and future releases right now absolutely of course can produce nothing but an exercise in total and complete frustration for all involved.

Substantive discussion about the future really just cannot happen right now in the current circumstances. NewTek has a lot to work through to get to that point, and frankly would anyway, even if the situation were as simple as just having the new release to get out.

Here's what can happen now (and is happening):

NewTek LightWave Team members and NewTek Video team members are engaging here and will continue to do so going forward - but please understand it may not be as intensely as right now. Everyone involved has multiple obligations, and you have us way outnumbered.
NewTek LightWave Team members and NewTek Video Marketing team members are working on additional content about the new release for the website. There is material that we already had in mind for this, but we are also compiling your questions and comments from the threads here as a guide to additional ideas.
NewTek LightWave Team members and NewTek Video Marketing team members are working on a new communications plan for the LW3DG.


I didn't mistakenly omit "Marketing" in the first point - some of the folks engaging here in the forum are from other departments on the Video side.

So, people have expressed their views in plenty on the long term without appropriate communications - NewTek owns it, we apologize, we intend not to let such a lapse occur again.

People have also expressed what they want from future communications, executive management is fully aware of the feedback, and NewTek has ducks to line up to reach the point of having the proper responsible personnel sorted out to pursue that topic. So we ask your patience - we'll come back to the discussion when the ducks are lined up, and that would also need to be some amount of time after the release because that has to be "all hands" for a while.

For now we are going to concentrate our efforts on the release materials in preparation, and responding to questions and discussion about the release itself, because that's what we can productively do for you for the moment.

Thanks Chuck, chrystal clear, I hope you all guys managed to enjoy christmas too, despite the upcoming release and what that means in terms of packaging it all.

gar26lw
12-17-2017, 04:20 PM
does lw still come in a box or is it all digital theses days?

sami
12-17-2017, 04:30 PM
...I for one wouldn’t mind a period where lightwave receives frequent incremental updates and helpful workflow improvements instead of lofty promises, structural changes, and absurdly long development times. ...

Sounds like some dev team needs to implement modern agile practices like I (and probably jweide) have been saying for a long time. This includes continuous integration and delivery - something every team that releases regularly needs.

gjjackson
12-17-2017, 04:49 PM
does lw still come in a box or is it all digital theses days?

I would prefer they did as before. I'd certainly Pay to have a boxed copy.

gar26lw
12-17-2017, 04:49 PM
I for one wouldn’t mind a period where lightwave receives frequent incremental updates and helpful workflow improvements instead of lofty promises, structural changes, and absurdly long development times.

+1 +1 +1

gar26lw
12-17-2017, 04:52 PM
I would prefer they did as before. I'd certainly Pay to have a boxed copy.

i remember getting the 6 one and it came with some plastic bugs in it. must still have them somewhere.

sami
12-17-2017, 04:53 PM
When I ran my own little business, I fired the odd squeaky wheel customer. I'm delighted to work very hard with someone to meet their needs, but people who think they'll get ever more out of you by shrieking just aren't worth the time or aggravation.

This attitude (despite your generally wonderful, kind and inclusive nature moderating here) combined with the odd posts I've seen here from Newtek (e.g. one from a dev named Jon) here, seem to me like they have a strong undercurrent of disdain for the customer.

Yes some customers may be a*holes (hopefully you don't consider reasonable ones like myself such) but my experience in business and building products leads me to believe in the old phrase "the customer is always right". If you harbor disdain even for your difficult customers then you are missing valuable opportunities and leaving money on the table.

The really great, transformative CEOs I've met see difficult customers as opportunities - not personal slights.

dsol
12-17-2017, 04:53 PM
Good post dsol. Ditto Saint Bowie (though I leave you to inform His Pontiff). I see you are/were connected with "London Lightwave". Does it still meet, or is LALightwave the last group left in the world ? :)

It's been literally years since we had the last London meetup - but I'd really like to do another one in the new year, especially as we're finally seeing a new LW release. I know a few 'wavers who are still about, so it would be great to get it going again, if there's interest

SBowie
12-17-2017, 07:26 PM
.... my experience in business and building products leads me to believe in the old phrase "the customer is always right". If you harbor disdain even for your difficult customers then you are missing valuable opportunities and leaving money on the table.

The really great, transformative CEOs I've met see difficult customers as opportunities - not personal slights.This is all true...until it isn't. If every customer was right at all times, and we tried to give every last one of them exactly what they asked for, our products would be a disaster. It's appropriate to treat everyone with dignity, and to listen carefully to them. But you don't need to be a doormat, either. Apple is considered fairly successful, but they don't tolerate ranting in their forums. Raise too much of a ruckus at Walmart, and someone will call security.

Here's some interesting reading on the topic: www.huffingtonpost.com/alexander-kjerulf/top-5-reasons-customer-service_b_5145636.html

Forum policy clearly states that this 'is not a free speech zone". When I have a problem with a product that requires me to enter a complaint, I do so with civility. Failure to exercise personal restraint at such times only exacerbates the problem, and makes it needlessly hard for the recipient to pay attention, and even often to understand the point you're trying to make.

As a said in another post, some who really like to dish it out all of a sudden become very delicate if they imagine a slight toward them. That has always seemed a bit ironic to me. We make lots of room for passionate expression, but if someone is perpetually on fire and determined to burn the place down, they should not be too surprised if someone eventually turns a hose on them. Present company excepted, of course. :)

gar26lw
12-17-2017, 07:38 PM
steve, you can’t deny that there have been a lot of good feature requests, bugs pointed out and ideas put forward over a good (ten years?) period since lw 6 and nothing has happened to address those issues. for example, has the rounder bug been fixed? tbh i hesitate to ask as we have been asking since version 6 and its it a contentious issue.

i take your point though. it’s easy to forget there is a person on the other end of the line and not a faceless company but when there is total silence that illlision is the one that sticks in the mind of the difficult customer. i can’t speak for any other customer but the broken silence has helped dispel that ilusion. maybe if there wasn’t a silence in the first place there wouldn’t be as many difficult customers?

but this is all water under the bridge now, right? new direction, new policy, everyone’s happy

SBowie
12-17-2017, 07:43 PM
i can’t speak for any other customer but the broken silence has helped dispel that ilusion. maybe if there wasn’t a silence in the first place there wouldn’t be as many difficult customers?I don't disagree. I have said many times this year that I sympathized with the customer in this matter, and it was true. As evidence of that, we made far more than the usual allowance for posts that evidenced outrage in considerably less than civil terms. That is not to say that I think this is a good approach to things, but it's understandable.

Snosrap
12-17-2017, 08:16 PM
steve, you can’t deny that there have been a lot of good feature requests, bugs pointed out and ideas put forward over a good (ten years?) period since lw 6 and nothing has happened to address those issues. for example, has the rounder bug been fixed? tbh i hesitate to ask as we have been asking since version 6 and its it a contentious issue.

Rounder was never in 6. Just sayin. :) It came in 8. And FYI it's not going to get fixed. Replaced maybe - fixed no. NT even reached out to Richard Brak on this and he couldn't fix it.

leandropedrouzo
12-17-2017, 09:17 PM
please, bear my bad english.
Maybe a little late, but I wanted to give my personal opinion on this subject. I will try to focus on FACTS:

First, I know that:
- Newtek can talk with the user when they want/feel and they are not obligated to do so.
- They owe nothing to the users.
- etc

But;
- I'm not a kid anymore, after more than 20 years I dont want to change software/learn a different app
- I use it to make money/support my family so if Lighwave suddenly dies (like some were thinking a few day ago before the announcement) I am screwed (back to previous point)
- I´ve been struggling with some aspects where LW is behind some other 3D packages. Now that 3+ years passed I am more behind than ever. This is, for me and me only, the most important point. Will LW start to cut its shortcomings for good?
(please dont say this is no fact, because it is. )

Being a generalist, making characters (animals often), sometimes asked for Motion Graphics, hair, particles, fluid, etc. you realize that things that are common and easy in other packages requires tricks, "cheats", insane amounts of work in LW or are plain impossible.
I repeat, this is my view and not all can share it (maybe no one) but I tried to keep emotions out and make it all facts.

MonroePoteet
12-17-2017, 10:01 PM
please, bear my bad english.
Maybe a little late, but I wanted to give my personal opinion on this subject. I will try to focus on FACTS:

First, I know that:
- Newtek can talk with the user when they want/feel and they are not obligated to do so.
- They owe nothing to the users.
- etc

But;
- I'm not a kid anymore, after more than 20 years I dont want to change software/learn a different app
- I use it to make money/support my family so if Lighwave suddenly dies (like some were thinking a few day ago before the announcement) I am screwed (back to previous point)
- I´ve been struggling with some aspects where LW is behind some other 3D packages. Now that 3+ years passed I am more behind than ever. This is, for me and me only, the most important point. Will LW start to cut its shortcomings for good?
(please dont say this is no fact, because it is. )

Being a generalist, making characters (animals often), sometimes asked for Motion Graphics, hair, particles, fluid, etc. you realize that things that are common and easy in other packages requires tricks, "cheats", insane amounts of work in LW or are plain impossible.
I repeat, this is my view and not all can share it (maybe no one) but I tried to keep emotions out and make it all facts.

Very well stated. No problem with your English.

mTp

samurai_x
12-17-2017, 10:29 PM
please, bear my bad english.
Maybe a little late, but I wanted to give my personal opinion on this subject. I will try to focus on FACTS:

First, I know that:
- Newtek can talk with the user when they want/feel and they are not obligated to do so.
- They owe nothing to the users.
- etc

But;
- I'm not a kid anymore, after more than 20 years I dont want to change software/learn a different app
- I use it to make money/support my family so if Lighwave suddenly dies (like some were thinking a few day ago before the announcement) I am screwed (back to previous point)
- I´ve been struggling with some aspects where LW is behind some other 3D packages. Now that 3+ years passed I am more behind than ever. This is, for me and me only, the most important point. Will LW start to cut its shortcomings for good?
(please dont say this is no fact, because it is. )

Being a generalist, making characters (animals often), sometimes asked for Motion Graphics, hair, particles, fluid, etc. you realize that things that are common and easy in other packages requires tricks, "cheats", insane amounts of work in LW or are plain impossible.
I repeat, this is my view and not all can share it (maybe no one) but I tried to keep emotions out and make it all facts.

It would be good to list down those shortcoming and fog it. If fogbugz is still open for common users.
People have different needs. Some don't even need lightwave unified....smh.

3dcoat has mantis tracker and is so awesome, The developer actually has a list of what users actually want and works on it. There's even a voting poll to prioritize features.

CaptainMarlowe
12-17-2017, 10:55 PM
It would be good to list down those shortcoming and fog it. If fogbugz is still open for common users.
People have different needs. Some don't even need lightwave unified....smh.

3dcoat has mantis tracker and is so awesome, The developer actually has a list of what users actually want and works on it. There's even a voting poll to prioritize features.

There’s something similar with Allegorithmic, and yes, it sometimes trigger new features implementation or points bugs that are considered showstoppers by the customers.

jeric_synergy
12-17-2017, 11:55 PM
Thanks for the kind words, but please don't erect a shrine. They are too easily converted into gallows. ;)

Dude! You're on fire! Wait, that's not a gallows, that's a pyre.

Seriously, that's a quote, right?

jeric_synergy
12-17-2017, 11:58 PM
Sounds like some dev team needs to implement modern agile practices like I (and probably jweide) have been saying for a long time. This includes continuous integration and delivery - something every team that releases regularly needs.

I haven't been able to convince them that updating the DOCUMENTATION on a regular basis would be a good idea, and that's orders of magnitude easier than updating code.

Seriously, when users are reporting Errors&Ommisions, how hard can it be to alter a PDF??

hypersuperduper
12-18-2017, 12:10 AM
I haven't been able to convince them that updating the DOCUMENTATION on a regular basis would be a good idea, and that's orders of magnitude easier than updating code.

Seriously, when users are reporting Errors&Ommisions, how hard can it be to alter a PDF??
Well, the documentation is online for 2018 apparently so hopefully they are trying to fix the document issue at least.

Also in my experience working with coders. Code they will happily change. Documentation? That’s someone else’s problem.

samurai_x
12-18-2017, 12:11 AM
There’s something similar with Allegorithmic, and yes, it sometimes trigger new features implementation or points bugs that are considered showstoppers by the customers.

Vray has the same type of interaction. I'm sure houdini, too. People have mentioned daily builds for houdini.

samurai_x
12-18-2017, 12:13 AM
I haven't been able to convince them that updating the DOCUMENTATION on a regular basis would be a good idea, and that's orders of magnitude easier than updating code.

Seriously, when users are reporting Errors&Ommisions, how hard can it be to alter a PDF??

Millennials don't read documentation. They learn about food, travel tips, how to fold a shirt like a japanese from YOUTUBE.
Text with no moving pictures? Dark ages..

hypersuperduper
12-18-2017, 12:34 AM
Sounds like some dev team needs to implement modern agile practices like I (and probably jweide) have been saying for a long time. This includes continuous integration and delivery - something every team that releases regularly needs.
Maybe. Not a programmer myself but a lot of this seems buzzwordy to me. I hear “agile”, “continuous integration” and, just like when I hear “synergy”, my eyes begin to roll involuntarily. I think it is super simple in lightwave’s case. You can’t have EVERY lightwave employee working on the next version 100% for 3 years, while the current version is full of bugs that never get addressed. The Lightwave team should, for a couple versions at least while they regroup, refrain from biting off more than they can chew. This update was a BIG CHANGE and it looks like it nearly killed them. Smaller helpful updates taking advantage of what they’ve developed for 2-3 years would be nice.

gar26lw
12-18-2017, 02:28 AM
Rounder was never in 6. Just sayin. :) It came in 8. And FYI it's not going to get fixed. Replaced maybe - fixed no. NT even reached out to Richard Brak on this and he couldn't fix it.

oh really? they should have said so we all stfu :)

gar26lw
12-18-2017, 02:32 AM
3dcoat has mantis tracker and is so awesome, The developer actually has a list of what users actually want and works on it. There's even a voting poll to prioritize features.

wow, really? that’s just what we’ve been preaching.

kopperdrake
12-18-2017, 02:39 AM
This is a small company, with finite resources. People want staff to engage, but when they do are inevitably barraged, sometimes in very nasty terms. With civility and reasonableness, it could be win-win. But more often it has been extremely counter-productive.

Forums are like digital cameras. 24 shots made you think long and hard about each photograph.

dballesg
12-18-2017, 04:33 AM
That's never been how the product is developed. Every bit of the new version is something that someone asked for, or something that needed to be done in order to get to the point of later being able to deliver something that someone asked for.

WOW Chuck,

About what I remarked on your post...let's do a little trip thru the memory lane...

As an example some of us asked for the "modified" behaviour of joints twist parameter to be reverted almost at the end of 9.6 Open Beta. A lot of reasons where given by RebelHill for why the original behaviour was right and the change needed to be reverted.

Guess what? If I'm not mistaken LW 2015 still has the "bad" behaviour. Lets see 2018, that is a question I will like to see from someone that will update. And like that, the plethora of bugs that are not fixed between versions, and I'm talking 9.6 to 2015 here...LW2015 has been how long without a bug fix update??? Why someone would like to update to a software that the developing company doesnt update on a timely manner?

I'm so sorry to deflate your argument...and embarrased of see you, one of the people on NewTek that has always comunicated well with the user base, sent back to the trenches to save the face of management.

I'm not going to quote your other post about management beign busy doing a lot of cool things... what they are doing is hide behind their desks...as every time they screw up LightWave development.

NT History shows:

NT management pissed off the original team and they left. Told to me by one of the original developers. I own Modo and at some point I talked with them.
After the new team came in they hired Jay and they allowed the CORE fiasco. See below... The person that hired him is IN LightWave management.
When the LWGRP was trying to do the right thing, they fire the three peolpe that brought you ChronoSculpt. I know some people that will ike to use ChronoSculpt and they said they will not do it because is under NewTek management...


Management screws LightWave development like it is a sport to them.

NewTek is so lucky that people still believes on NewTek.
This time your user base is thinner than ever, and has been pouring out the holes that management has created on LightWave's heart.
Not the developers or those that wanted to keep LightWave alive those were clever enough to left or were fired...

And you mentioned LightWave Marketing team? What marketing team? There is no one and you know it.

https://www.lightwave3d.com/about_lightwave_group/

So Jim Plant, the one that hired his buddy Jay Roth is still at management???

Brilliant, now you only need to follow Kelly Meyers plan, hire him with a couple of extra developers and he will fix LightWave in six months...go ahead we know you want to do it... :devil:

David

P.D: I'm not on any way diminishing Chuck always excellent work. Is about the poor decisions of NewTek management. They are the onews that needed replacement.

SBowie
12-18-2017, 07:30 AM
Seriously, that's a quote, right?I don't think so, but I guess it's possible I picked something like it up somewhere and retained it subconciously. When I first wrote it, I used guillotine rather than gallows ... pyre is good too, though. :)

SBowie
12-18-2017, 07:58 AM
As an example some of us asked for the "modified" behaviour of joints twist parameter to be reverted almost at the end of 9.6 Open Beta. A lot of reasons where given by RebelHill for why the original behaviour was right and the change needed to be reverted.As you quoted, Chuck wrote "Every bit of the new version is something that someone asked for, or something that needed to be done in order to get to the point of later being able to deliver something that someone asked for."

For this statement to be true does not require that everyone will agree with the addition, or even care about it (some will say, "this isn't important to me, why didn't you spend that time on my feature instead?"

I've seen it happen over the years that a great deal of effort will be put into something that some key user insists must be implemented, only to find out that the 'need' was unique to his/her pipeline, and no-one else likes it. Your example doesn't prove your point at all, nor can it. But you managed to call Chuck a liar by writing it, so maybe you're scoring points for that?


NT management pissed off the original team and they left. Told to me by one of the original developers. I own Modo and at some point I talked with them.And maybe he really believes that. And clearly, you believed him. But there's an entirely different side to the story that you've never heard, and never will. I've learned over the years that there are as many different stories as there are vantage points. By definition, they are all subjective. Almost no-one knows all the details, and certainly no-one who wasn't involved knows 'the truth', to the degree that such exists. Spouting it as though you do doesn't do you any credit.

The same is true of the much more recent events, but there will still be those who have the temerity to insist "I know the facts, a little birdie told me". But I know a dozen little birdies that would tell you different tales, if telling tales were appropriate.

I'm not going to parse all the rest point by point, but it would come out about the same. I will agree with you on one thing. In the end, every problem is a management problem ... or maybe, more accurately, in the beginning. If a team has problems, one can arguably trace the underlying issues back to management. Personnel (or personal) issues, same thing, etc., etc. But all they can do is try their best. They aren't omniscient or all-powerful.

Management knows they are only human, too, which is why (for example) Jim Plant sincerely apologized to HC members, and bent over backwards to make things right in the aftermath. But we forget all of that, right? We just remember the problem, not all the time, effort, and investment that first went into making the thing work, and then the steps taken to rectify things so far as was possible. Nope, we never let a thing go, here - it will be dredged up eternally, any time we need it to support other points that can't stand on their own so must be propped up with something cobbled together from highly selective memory. Or we could discuss the new version ...

jeric_synergy
12-18-2017, 10:12 AM
Well, the documentation is online for 2018 apparently so hopefully they are trying to fix the document issue at least.

Also in my experience working with coders. Code they will happily change. Documentation? That’s someone else’s problem.

Really, already? Sweet. They must have been flogging BeeVee over the internet. :thumbsup:

1) But here's my REPEATED deal: no matter how good a job BeeVee (I assume) does, there will ALWAYS be Errors, there will ALWAYS be OMISSIONS. I report them (as 'bugs') as I run into them (which is the recommended remedy). These are virtually mechanical (ie 'requiring no creativity') changes. They should be addressed monthly.

2) More subtle is: if there's a LOT of forum/fb/wutevz chatter about confusion over a specific feature and/or aspect of the program, that bit NEEDS TO BE REWRITTEN. The old bit can stay (why not?) but a better explanation should be appended.

3) As users develop new examples and techniques, and post them online, THOSE SHOULD BE REFERENCED/LEVERAGED by the dox. If somebody is posting excellent advice/examples/demonstrations, there should be a central place to find them, and it sure ain't here in the forums. This is obviously more labor intensive, and requires maintenance, but too damn bad. It should be done.

3b) these would be of the form "Read this discussion on the forum: {LINK}", "Watch this video: {LINK}", "Here's a tutorial: {LINK}".

Chuck
12-18-2017, 10:29 AM
WOW Chuck,

About what I remarked on your post...let's do a little trip thru the memory lane...

As an example some of us asked for the "modified" behaviour of joints twist parameter to be reverted almost at the end of 9.6 Open Beta. A lot of reasons where given by RebelHill for why the original behaviour was right and the change needed to be reverted.

Guess what? If I'm not mistaken LW 2015 still has the "bad" behaviour. Lets see 2018, that is a question I will like to see from someone that will update. And like that, the plethora of bugs that are not fixed between versions, and I'm talking 9.6 to 2015 here...LW2015 has been how long without a bug fix update??? Why someone would like to update to a software that the developing company doesnt update on a timely manner?

I'm so sorry to deflate your argument...and embarrased of see you, one of the people on NewTek that has always comunicated well with the user base, sent back to the trenches to save the face of management.

I'm not going to quote your other post about management beign busy doing a lot of cool things... what they are doing is hide behind their desks...as every time they screw up LightWave development.

David,

In response to someone who claimed that the product is all things the programmers decided to do based on their personal programming interests, I said that everything that has been implemented is something that was asked for by a user, or was necessary to achieve something asked for by a user. That's absolutely a fact.

I most definitely did not say that "everything that has ever been asked for has been implemented," which is apparently how you took the meaning and the point you are disputing. Apologies, but you misunderstood the meaning.


NT History shows:

NT management pissed off the original team and they left. Told to me by one of the original developers. I own Modo and at some point I talked with them.
After the new team came in they hired Jay and they allowed the CORE fiasco. See below... The person that hired him is IN LightWave management.
When the LWGRP was trying to do the right thing, they fire the three peolpe that brought you ChronoSculpt. I know some people that will ike to use ChronoSculpt and they said they will not do it because is under NewTek management...


Management screws LightWave development like it is a sport to them.

NewTek is so lucky that people still believes on NewTek.
This time your user base is thinner than ever, and has been pouring out the holes that management has created on LightWave's heart.
Not the developers or those that wanted to keep LightWave alive those were clever enough to left or were fired...

And you mentioned LightWave Marketing team? What marketing team? There is no one and you know it.

https://www.lightwave3d.com/about_lightwave_group/

So Jim Plant, the one that hired his buddy Jay Roth is still at management???

Brilliant, now you only need to follow Kelly Meyers plan, hire him with a couple of extra developers and he will fix LightWave in six months...go ahead we know you want to do it... :devil:

David

P.D: I'm not on any way diminishing Chuck always excellent work. Is about the poor decisions of NewTek management. They are the onews that needed replacement.

I appreciate the kind words at the wrap up, and I'm tempted to just say that I think Steve has responded aptly enough to this second part of your message, but I would like to reinforce what he had to say.

I have learned over the years that anyone holding someone in contempt that they really don't know is very much misplaced. I have said publicly several times that good people with the best of intentions can sometimes come to a parting of the ways, and sometimes bitterly so, but that nominating anyone as "bad guys" is just not the truth of the matter and not fair to any of the sides involved. People in such situations often do that to each other, but almost as often, time and perspective eventually get them over that. People looking on such situations from the outside who get emotionally involved in a "side" actually seem less inclined to ever get over things, especially if they never actually get to know the people on the side they've chosen to nominate as the bad guys.

Lastly, in this pass, I think I may have mentioned the Exec team as "busy" a time or two, but not on something cool; more generally, it is the NewTek LightWave Team and NewTek Video Team working together now on additional information for the website. I hope folks will be happy to see that as it shows up, so I might have said "cool" about that. Sorry, shows my age. When the exec team is busy, it is usually something "thankless" rather than "cool."

dballesg
12-18-2017, 10:36 AM
For this statement to be true does not require that everyone will agree with the addition, or even care about it (some will say, "this isn't important to me, why didn't you spend that time on my feature instead?"

My example was abot a feature implemented BY Newtek (I didn't asked for it, but it was a nice surprise) and afterwards screwed so it's a bug not a feature anymore.


But you managed to call Chuck a liar by writing it, so maybe you're scoring points for that?

I didn't did that neither was my intention to call Chuck that not even indirectly. If I wanted to call him that I will say it loud with all the words, I'm direct enough so I don't need subterfuges.


Jim Plant sincerely apologized to HC members, and bent over backwards to make things right in the aftermath.

Um so Rob has been sacked, and Jim Plant wasn't at the time because of what reason?


But we forget all of that, right? We just remember the problem, not all the time, effort, and investment that first went into making the thing work, and then the steps taken to rectify things so far as was possible. Nope, we never let a thing go, here - it will be dredged up eternally, any time we need it to support other points that can't stand on their own so must be propped up with something cobbled together from highly selective memory. Or we could discuss the new version ...

I remembered the problem, because the new version shows that LightWave is an agonizing beast beign tortured for a group of people that doesn't care (yes, the say they do Steve) . Due to your job you are obligated to say nice things about them, but really I've been a LW user for so long that you defense will not compute with me. Plus I do not owe them anything, except give them grief for the lost time in LightWave development due to their blatant mistakes.

In all this years one full team of developers and two managers of LightWave falled down. But the people that hired them and left the disasters to occur are still there... and you wnat me to give them a pat on the back? Ain't gonna happen...

David

dsol
12-18-2017, 10:49 AM
Um so Rob has been sacked, and Jim Plant wasn't at the time because of what reason?

Jim Plant is responsible for a lot more than just Lightwave IIRC. Making this personal, and blaming individuals who you've never met is never going to be fair or productive.
One of the reasons I like Lightwave so much is that the dev team and management engage with us - the users. Try doing that with Autodesk products ;) But if they reach out and try to explain their reasons, and get hostile treatment, they might be *less* inclined to be open about their future plans, not more.

sadkkf
12-18-2017, 10:53 AM
As you quoted, ...


Hey! Aren't you on vacation? Go enjoy life! :)

Chuck
12-18-2017, 10:53 AM
Management screws LightWave development like it is a sport to them.



I remembered the problem, because the new version shows that LightWave is an agonizing beast being tortured for a group of people that doesn't care

NewTek Management wants LightWave 3D to be a successful product and they care very deeply about that. They do not "screw" with development nor "torture" the product, they take it very seriously and work to keep it moving forward. Again, not everyone agrees either here or in the user base on the best way to proceed, but there is nothing productive about developing contempt for people that you do not know and have no idea what either their opinions or actions were in a given situation.

SBowie
12-18-2017, 11:00 AM
Really, already? Sweet. They must have been flogging BeeVee over the internet. :thumbsup:

1) But here's my REPEATED deal: no matter how good a job BeeVee (I assume) does, there will ALWAYS be Errors, there will ALWAYS be OMISSIONS. I report them (as 'bugs') as I run into them (which is the recommended remedy). These are virtually mechanical (ie 'requiring no creativity') changes. They should be addressed monthly.


Not to speak for Ben, but I assume his situation isn't much different than my own. I'm 100% responsible for the docs on the video side, even thos I don't write - and I am keenly aware that there are errors, typos, and omissions in them. I could go on at length as to why, but in the edn it all boils down to not having enough time to do what I'd like to do. Rather than being the best I can do, they are often just the best I can do in a very short period of time. I'm sure Ben , like me, really appreciates Fogbugz cases that point out errata. I almost always attend to these ... but not necessarily immediately. I don't like this, but it's how it is (and people constantly remind me - and my own eyes bear out almost daily - that very few people bother with written documentation anyway).

This all being so, we've been trying to add hints right in the software wherever we can - enough so that the basics of a given feature or tool are right at your fingertips. And I think many find that short videos or mini-tutorials are more helpful that exhaustive docs. The latter are a massive undertaking, and difficult to maintain. I really wouldn't be surprised to see them become extinct, both for that reason and due to the general lack of use they see.

SBowie
12-18-2017, 11:15 AM
... so Rob has been sacked, and Jim Plant wasn't at the time because of what reason?Withut commenting on the recent developments vis a vis management, I will say that as best I can see Jim worked hard and supported the LW development efforts of that period (and since) to the full, as much or more than anyone in senior management. And when it turned out the way it did, he stepped up to face facts and take corrective measures as much as possible. I consider him to be a big LW booster. I don't know what more one can ask. And, since you don't really know the first thing about it, you're in no position to judge.


Due to your job you are obligated to say nice things about them, but really I've been a LW user for so long that you defense will not compute with me.Sorry, wrong again. My duties at NewTek do not obligate me to lie, or to cover anything up, or to spin anything. And while you're almost certainly better with LW than I am, I seriously doubt your history with it or NewTek goes back very much further than mine, for the simple reason that it can't.

I'm going to take this opportunity to point out that the forum policy specifically prohibits "Non-constructive criticism of a malicious nature", and "Personal attacks against NewTek customers or employees and their family members". If you've really not got any interest in making a meaningful contribution, I'm not sure what value there is in dropping in to spray acid and make allegations about things you have just a smattering of second-hand knowledge about. I suspect you are capable of making real contributions. I truly wish you would.

SBowie
12-18-2017, 11:17 AM
Hey! Aren't you on vacation? Go enjoy life! :)What makes you think I'm not enjoying myself? ;)

(Vacation just means I don't absolutely have to go into the office.)

sadkkf
12-18-2017, 11:33 AM
What makes you think I'm not enjoying myself? ;)

(Vacation just means I don't absolutely have to go into the office.)

Ha. My mistake. Enjoy working from home! :)

hypersuperduper
12-18-2017, 11:58 AM
That’s not what vacation means...

But we appreciate the enthusiasm!

mav3rick
12-18-2017, 01:08 PM
NewTek Management wants LightWave 3D to be a successful product and they care very deeply about that.

hey Chuck.. after recent events i really dont have any hope for that and thats just my own thinking.
i have mention more than once in past years about bad treatment and care for LW from Newtek. check out their main page no word about lightwave... same for facebook page.. i am talking about some cross marketing and advertising .
this can only tell me that they dont want to bother VIDEO TOASTER clients with LW3d as its not doing good for company reputation anymore..worst of all even if i know you will not agree i think they dont care about lw at all..
when we talk about VIDEO TOASTER... how come NT never had so much development problems in their video toaster team.. i cannot recall so much hire/fire moments there. looks like there is love and harmonic at every corner and that everything just works perfect... few floors down and we come to LW3DG..oh boy.. its like warzone.. i feel like ther is hunger games going on 24/7 and its only meter of time who will stab someone.. really...
i am long time LW user... have heard a lot of stories, tales and official statements from newtek and from all this mosaic i can only think thats some really twisted road going on.
i wish and would love to say lw development is stable, but looks like all the passionate software/hardware has same problem and sadly ending (amiga inc.) ..
every few years we have change of plans/management , you will say its normal in time of lw history but recent video toaster history proves me different, and that is why people ask for solid roadmap as we are tired of this roller coaster ride.

and at the end i have mixed feeling in myself as i am truly happy to see 2018 with all cool stuff that will help me in production but on the other hand i feel sadness as i really dont believe there is true future for this application.. amiga went with big bang and i am sorry to tell but i have feeling same thing will happen with lw after this release :( hope not.. i have never been so pessimistic till now :(

Chuck
12-18-2017, 01:50 PM
hey Chuck.. after recent events i really dont have any hope for that. i have mention more than once in past years about bad treatment and care for LW from Newtek. check out their main page no word about lightwave... same for facebook page.. i am talking about some cross marketing and advertising . this can only tell me that they dont want to bother VIDEO TOASTER clients with LW3d as its not doing good for company reputation anymore. when we talk about VIDEO TOASTER... how come NT never had so much development problems in their video toaster team. i cannot recall so much hire/fire moments there. looks like there is love and harmonic and everything just works perfect... few floors down and we come to LW3DG.. boy.. its like warzone.. i feel like ther is hunger games going on 24/7 and its only meter of time who will stab someone.. really.. i am long time LW user... have heard a lot of stories, tales and official statements from newtek and from all this mosaic i can only think thats some really twisted road going on. i wish and would love to say lw development is stable, but looks like all the passionate software/hardware has same problem and sadly ending (amiga inc.) .. every few years we have change of plans/management and that is why people ask for solid roadmap as we are tired of this roller coaster ride.

and at the end i have mixed feeling in myself as i am truly happy to see 2018 with all cool stuff that will help me in production but on the other hand i feel sadness as i really dont believe there is true future for this application.. amiga went with big bang and i am sorry if same thing happen with lw after this release :(

The company does pretty specifically target the video production market under "NewTek" branding for products, web sites, and social media, and the 3D market under "LightWave" branding for all of those things. That's not arbitrary or a whim, it's just due to the nature of the markets and of marketing. Where that's about people, it's about the people out there and how they behave with respect to response to branding, not about the people in here being capricious.

That said:

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The video products team has had its share of turnover over the years from top positions to entry level. The community focus has been on the product in hands now, engagement is typically with our support staff and our workflow experts, and with other users sharing expertise, and not with developers or development management, nor directly with marketing for the product.

Lastly, the Video Toaster® branding has been retired for many years. NewTek makes video production systems under the brands TriCaster®, NewTek IP Series, and 3Play®.

gar26lw
12-18-2017, 01:59 PM
i think the time has come for the community to collectively decide to either keep on doing the same old same old and get the change that they want or try a different approach and see if that yields a better result. Here is famous quote that i wholeheartedly agree with.

“John Maynard Keynes was an enormously influential economist, but some of his detractors complained that the opinions he expressed tended to change over the years. Once during a high-profile government hearing a critic accused him of being inconsistent, and Keynes reportedly answered with one of the following:

When events change, I change my mind. What do you do?
When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?
When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?
When someone persuades me that I am wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?”

previously, a certain stance and approach was warranted; in my mind, events, facts and information has changed so now a new approach is warranted.

cresshead
12-18-2017, 02:03 PM
To all the users and newtek staff, have a wonderful Christmas and I look forward to Jan 1st to take a look at the Demo of Lightwave 2018

mav3rick
12-18-2017, 02:12 PM
The company does pretty specifically target the video production market under "NewTek" branding for products, web sites, and social media, and the 3D market under "LightWave" branding for all of those things. That's not arbitrary or a whim, it's just due to the nature of the markets and of marketing. Where that's about people, it's about the people out there and how they behave with respect to response to branding, not about the people in here being capricious.

The video products team has had its share of turnover over the years from top positions to entry level. The community focus has been on the product in hands now, engagement is typically with our support staff and our workflow experts, and with other users sharing expertise, and not with developers or development management, nor directly with marketing for the product.

Lastly, the Video Toaster® branding has been retired for many years. NewTek makes video production systems under the brands TriCaster®, NewTek IP Series, and 3Play®.

chuck.. thanks for reply.. i know you can find informations about LW @ newtek web page but its so well wraped up and hidden it really takes to get to it.. i dont see anythin about lw on FRONT PAGE... regarding facebook.. except recent 2018 post i cant see anything lw related .. at lest not as much compared to other newtek products... anyway i am not trying to be picky here.. i think you understand my point... regarding videotoaster... again.. i am glad you corrected me but i think you understood exactly what i wanted to tell .. i am talking about NEWTEK VIDEO department RND. vs LW3DG and usual moving inside hierarchy is far away from what we have in LW development sorry cant be match to match.

anyway as cress said.. i sincerely wish all of you marry Christmas, and wiser new year.. i will no more post regarding this topic. stay well

Chuck
12-18-2017, 02:22 PM
chuck.. thanks for reply.. i know you can find informations about LW @ newtek web page but its so well wraped up and hidden it really takes to get to it.. i dont see anythin about lw on FRONT PAGE... regarding facebook.. except recent 2018 post i cant see anything lw related .. at lest not as much compared to other newtek products... anyway i am not trying to be picky here.. i think you understand my point... regarding videotoaster... again.. i am glad you corrected me but i think you understood exactly what i wanted to tell .. i am talking about NEWTEK VIDEO department RND. vs LW3DG and usual moving inside hierarchy is far away from what we have in LW development sorry cant be match to match.



I do understand the points you were making; but I don't agree with them. I know the comings and goings in comparable positions on both teams, and the turnover is really not that different, it's just private on the video side and public on the 3D side.

As for the cross-marketing - please rest assured the exec team is aware of the concerns you have expressed.

SBowie
12-18-2017, 02:36 PM
I know the comings and goings in comparable positions on both teams, and the turnover is really not that different ... I can think of five people off the top of my head who aren't with us any longer on the video side in the last year or two - for all manner of reasons. Nothing unusual in that, afaics.

jeric_synergy
12-18-2017, 08:53 PM
This all being so, we've been trying to add hints right in the software wherever we can - enough so that the basics of a given feature or tool are right at your fingertips. And I think many find that short videos or mini-tutorials are more helpful that exhaustive docs. The latter are a massive undertaking, and difficult to maintain. I really wouldn't be surprised to see them become extinct, both for that reason and due to the general lack of use they see.
1) Dude, aren't you on vacation? ;)

2) "Hints right in the software" is just good design, but also can be explicit, such as balloon help**. YMMV, but IMO there's a distinct lack of that in the LW UI, up to and including lacking Panel (aka 'windows') titles* that would be useful in keeping one's orientation in the UI. Matt knows me of olde, and knows I've been beating this drum for a long time.

3) As to videos versus dox, you can see my point #3 addresses this, but I'd like to point out that a CENTRAL location to find such stuff would be general good idea, rather than counting on Google.

4) If BeeVee and yourself need more resources, well, that would be smart too.

5) After the recent communication fiasco, I'd think LWG would want to implement repeating contact with their (loyal and long-suffering) user base. Monthly updates of the dox could be that avenue, scoring at least two birds with one stone.


* that is, where many similar panels can be addressing different elements or entities in the current Scene, not the panel function itself.
** I've suggested TIERED balloon help several times.

Snosrap
12-18-2017, 08:56 PM
they should have said so we all stfu :) they did - yes somewhere on these forums. :)

gar26lw
12-18-2017, 10:25 PM
they did - yes somewhere on these forums. :)

yeah might have missed it.

Snosrap
12-19-2017, 04:46 PM
yeah might have missed it.

Yep a lot of crap over the years is here. :)

gar26lw
12-19-2017, 05:14 PM
Yep a lot of crap over the years is here. :)

if lw forums was a bar..

http://www.traveller.com.au/content/dam/images/g/i/3/j/u/t/image.gallery.galleryLandscape.620x414.git9pc.png/1438845229148.jpg

Snosrap
12-19-2017, 08:03 PM
Lol

djlithium
12-19-2017, 09:26 PM
I've been a lightwave user for more than 20 years and I've built my professional career mostly thanks to the use of this software.
In these last years, when the brightness of lightwave started to fade, I've kept on supporting it and defende my choice despite what other people or competitors
around me thought.
It was hard to find collaborators that were able to use it, who were willing to learn it etc., but Lightwave always proved to be productive and, like many of us, I've delivered very important projects thanks to it.
I've always thought it was the best choice for my kind of work.

But now things are different.

I do think this last release will be a great boost of productivity for people like me who have a long production experience with Lw (as well as render farm, plugins etc), nevertheless I WILL NOT UPGRADE MY LICENCES UNTIL I GET A CLEAR ROADMAP STATEMENT FROM LIGHTWAVE GROUP. After such a long time of silence we DESERVE IT.

I've talked with many users and I'm sure that many of them share my opinion. After one and an half year of silence that showed no respect for us, being a loyal user I felt so disappointed that I've started looking for and purchaising alternative softwares.
We 've made our living thanks to lightwave and changing software is not an easy choice, but respect towards users should be a top priority for any company, expecially in this case, since the Lightwave community is a special one.

I really hope that many users will follow my choice and force Lightwave group to reveal the guidelines of their future developement plans as well as a predictable timing before upgrading.
Other companies do it, why do we always have to wait for a new release feeling anxious and with the fear that promises won't be kept?
If Newtek or lightwave group want to have a future, and keep at least their user base, they owe this to us.



Roadmaps are not business plans.

Amerelium
12-20-2017, 05:49 AM
https://www.vegvesen.no/vegkart/vegkart/#kartlag:geodata/@600000,7225000,3

CaptainMarlowe
12-20-2017, 06:15 AM
https://www.vegvesen.no/vegkart/vegkart/#kartlag:geodata/@600000,7225000,3

Reminds me of my honeymoon, 12 years ago. We started from Bergen with a Hurtigruten boat and disembarked at Kirkenes, in late december. Sweet memories.

djlithium
12-20-2017, 01:49 PM
We don't deserve a roadmap what we do deserve is an explanation as to how things will improve from this point on, Will we have to wait another three years for an update? Who will be overseeing Lightwaves development
now that Rob is gone, Will the blog be continued and how will they improve on their communication to their users.

It's in very good hands.

Wickedpup
12-20-2017, 01:58 PM
Funny....I remember you saying something along those lines when Rob took over the helm......

mummyman
12-20-2017, 02:03 PM
It's in very good hands.

Thanks!!! Kat knows his stuff! Glad you are on LW's side.

- - - Updated - - -


Funny....I remember you saying something along those lines when Rob took over the helm......

Oh boy... here we go...

SBowie
12-20-2017, 03:23 PM
Oh boy... here we go...Operators are standing by (with fingers hovering over their Delete keys).

50one
12-20-2017, 04:10 PM
Well I still rememeber that rant on FB...cough cough.

djlithium
12-20-2017, 04:21 PM
Undo for sure. And I thnk the unification stuff is largely misguided. What would unification do and how would it work? For lightwave artists. Not people who want a maya killer. The only thing that can kill maya is essentially maya. Well AD and they have certainly done a good job of pissing off their own customer base as of late doing all the stuff I warned against with core and sure enough.. I was right, but that's not the point. LW needs to be LW. Otherwise I would have switched long ago.

MichaelT
12-20-2017, 04:42 PM
if lw forums was a bar..

http://www.traveller.com.au/content/dam/images/g/i/3/j/u/t/image.gallery.galleryLandscape.620x414.git9pc.png/1438845229148.jpg

That's a bit calm.. don't you think? :)

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gar26lw
12-20-2017, 05:59 PM
Thanks!!! Kat knows his stuff! Glad you are on LW's side.

is that official?

Nicolas Jordan
12-20-2017, 06:21 PM
Undo for sure. And I thnk the unification stuff is largely misguided. What would unification do and how would it work? For lightwave artists. Not people who want a maya killer. The only thing that can kill maya is essentially maya. Well AD and they have certainly done a good job of pissing off their own customer base as of late doing all the stuff I warned against with core and sure enough.. I was right, but that's not the point. LW needs to be LW. Otherwise I would have switched long ago.

I agree, Lightwave needs to remain Lightwave and build on it's existing strengths. It's weaknesses also need to be addressed and unification may not necessarily be the way to address those weaknesses.

samurai_x
12-20-2017, 07:26 PM
And I thnk the unification stuff is largely misguided.

That's a bad business plan. Maintaining what's left of the userbase who like the split. Not going to attract many defectors from other software. They will go to modo, c4d, blender.
Just saying.


Curious. How many lightwave 2015 licenses do people think were sold and how many active lightwave 2015 users there are in the world right now?
A release every 2 to 3 years at this price. How much is that gross income for Newtek every 2 to 3 years?

Maybe not enough to employ full time developers.

gar26lw
12-20-2017, 07:30 PM
what if they make a unified app that can be started in pure modelling mode or pure layout mode and keep the hub helper app? everyone happy.

samurai_x
12-20-2017, 07:41 PM
what if they make a unified app that can be started in pure modelling mode or pure layout mode and keep the hub helper app? everyone happy.

They don't have the resources to unify. They can keep promising it but not going to happen. Over a decade already.
That last chance was Core.

Imho its going to be a slow decline in the userbase unless blender, c4d, modo, AD, f'up or do something drastically stupid that makes people want to come to lightwave. Decline is already happening anyway.


https://community.foundry.com/discuss/topic/128032/lightwave-3d-blog-update?page=9

"Problem is that those few idiots are VAST majority of remaining userbase. "

gar26lw
12-20-2017, 08:35 PM
hater gonna hate and there are some real big haters on there.

hypersuperduper
12-21-2017, 12:17 AM
It’s funny/depressing to see exactly the same names and same rants over there. Let’s just see how things go next year. I honestly don’t think the lightwave forums or the modo forums are a particularly good place to go to get any sort of objective sense of lightwave’s chances with lw2018. It’s a real Hatfields and McCoys situation.

I would be much more interested to hear from the vastly larger group who left lw long ago and didn’t look back and don’t post regularly on these forums. Is the new version/upgrade deal interesting enough to entice them to give it a try? Are the features good enough to get them to upgrade?

gar26lw
12-21-2017, 12:49 AM
it’s a shame sites like flay and spin quad are no longer around. bee alternative i’ve seen is rendering.de

one way to judge interest might be to look at cgtalk. lw forums been dead over there, if it perks up..