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View Full Version : Cel Shading and NPR - What's Possible??



paulhart
12-13-2017, 10:11 PM
Cel Shader and Enhanced Edge Rendering: Offers flexible non photoreal render control over material shading and allows gradient-based cel shading, while Edge Rendering uses any material available in the Surface Editor to shade any line.
This is the official word, from the announcement. I tried doing searches of how the Japanese marketplace is responding to this latest Lightwave release, but no much yet to share, just toop early?? Perhaps someone else with more knowledge can respond. I am deeply interested in seeing examples, videos, how-to's, creative responses with the new tools, and anybody on the BETA team stateside or in Japan, show us your stuff. The Japanese market has done remarkable work with Lightwave in the past, and they have their own Plugin's, which have yet to be translated and integrated into the English world, booo! So, the challenge is on, please WOW me with examples. Inspire all of us. I have a project that is going to be either a Lightwave 2018 NPR animation, or a Blender 2.8 NPR. Maybe a little bit of both, but.... Blender 2.8 currently does not have any stated work on the Freestyle lines (which is a Post Render process, lacks interactivity!) and they are dumping Blender Internal, which has been the staple for Blender NPR work, so, for me, Lightwave may win the day.
So, come on experts, show me what is possible.

Wade
12-13-2017, 10:18 PM
I Second that! Speaking of lines at some point we might have to ditch the yellow and black lines in our avitars with LWNext / 2018 rolling out. ???

CaptainMarlowe
12-13-2017, 10:20 PM
That’s where Lino should chime in. He has done a lot of renders in cell shading hese last months.

paulhart
12-14-2017, 09:29 AM
CaptainMarlowe... I agree, as I have seen one render by Lino, but it did not seem to demonstrate anything more than a clean, 'typical' cel shaded star fighter, with 'clean' tech level line work. I know that the Japanese are more 'artful' in their us of NPR strategies, textural, watercolor like, with more calligraphic hand drawn style line work. This is what I am hoping to see more of.

MonroePoteet
12-14-2017, 11:09 AM
Speaking of cel shading, here's a recent video by Simon Smalley doing some (IMO) nice cel shading without shaders:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_tWGLwusr8

Instead of shaders, he uses a stepped-key Incidence-angle Gradient on the Color channel with PhotoShop Colorburn blending mode. He uses a geometric approach to the edges, taking the original model and using Point Normal Move to create a sort of "halo" around the geometry and jitters it for a hand-drawn look.

Might be old news to some of you guys, but it looks like it works really well and easy to set up once you know the basics.

mTp

ianr
12-14-2017, 11:30 AM
CaptainMarlowe... I agree, as I have seen one render by Lino, but it did not seem to demonstrate anything more than a clean, 'typical' cel shaded star fighter, with 'clean' tech level line work. I know that the Japanese are more 'artful' in their us of NPR strategies, textural, watercolor like, with more calligraphic hand drawn style line work. This is what I am hoping to see more of.

May I happily inform you that LW devs went to Japan to collect wishes for the new Cel interactive shader amongst others.
And for you the cherry on the top is Batman-Ninja, movie soon tbr'ed by Warner Bros all done in LW2018 beta
by Kamakeze Douga. It 's Kurosawa runnin' with with DC. Be amazed, I was, all my Xmas luck to Douga on release!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwPFxcefpdU

If Lino is a bit busy Paulhart, then he must be knocking out '2018-content'!

paulhart
12-14-2017, 11:37 AM
MonroePoteet... Good example of alternate approaches, shown on the video. I will have to try it, plus a few other tweaks. Thanks for the share.
ianr... you obviously got on this thread, while I was composing the above short response, so, here is a few more choice words...
ianr... Thank you for sharing the video link. Full props to Kamakaze Douga. The 'look' of some of those shots are excellent, even some textured, 'hand-drawn looking' textures. Great stuff!! Now, get the translation going, port those plugin's, hire some people to do videos and show us poor folk, 'just how it's done.' Thank you, I will be waiting, while trying my own hand at the skills.

pinkmouse
12-14-2017, 03:22 PM
Nice looking trailer, but frankly, Adam West is the one and only Batman for me. :)

Wade
12-14-2017, 03:41 PM
May I happily inform you that LW devs went to Japan to collect wishes for the new Cel interactive shader amongst others.
And for you the cherry on the top is Batman-Ninja, movie soon tbr'ed by Warner Bros all done in LW2018 beta
by Kamakeze Douga. It 's Kurosawa runnin' with with DC. Be amazed, I was, all my Xmas luck to Douga on release!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwPFxcefpdU

That is really nice - dumbfounded. :0

paulhart
12-15-2017, 01:42 PM
Crickets . . . again?? This area of development, in collaboration with Japanese developers, years in the making, should be great big news! Promotional videos, how to, demonstration of the new potential, examples, node trees, settings. There should be a "flood" of cool promotion and discussion. I started this thread, hoping that it would generate some feedback from Newtek. and.... Crickets!!!

paulhart
12-17-2017, 09:40 PM
Could someone on the Newtek team please respond with something about the NPR area of development. I know that Rob is gone and Lino, but the trip to Japan did happen, tech was explored and the Japanese anime/animation marketplace is significant, and... There was a 'bullet point' on the release description. So, enough with the "crickets," answer this thread, with some kind of show and tell. Please, it is to your benefit, to promote this area, after all the research and hard work by the development team???!!!

CaptainMarlowe
12-18-2017, 08:44 AM
Anttij77 said in the announcement thread he will make a video on the cel shader in the coming days.

vonpietro
12-18-2017, 08:01 PM
138904138905138906

Heres an example of some of my cel style work.
all celshaded plus a paint watercolor filter
lw and fusion

paulhart
12-18-2017, 08:21 PM
Fine examples, thank you. You did not say if these involved Lightwave 2018 or not??

vonpietro
12-18-2017, 10:24 PM
lw 2015

gar26lw
12-18-2017, 10:47 PM
Could someone on the Newtek team please respond with something about the NPR area of development. I know that Rob is gone and Lino, but the trip to Japan did happen, tech was explored and the Japanese anime/animation marketplace is significant, and... There was a 'bullet point' on the release description. So, enough with the "crickets," answer this thread, with some kind of show and tell. Please, it is to your benefit, to promote this area, after all the research and hard work by the development team???!!!

i’d be surprised if cell shading wasn’t well catered for

magiclight
12-19-2017, 03:38 AM
Lino did some videos showing some of the features.

paulhart
01-08-2018, 10:09 PM
I was looking for some guidance on new possibilities of NPR line control with Lightwave 2018, particularly with the cross-fertilization with Japanese developers. I went to Google and entered the following, "lightwave 2018 NPR videos" and guess what I found at the top of the Google listing, my own earlier thread, still with no response from the Newtek team...... Crickets ?? still ?? The software is released, at least someone working with the Japanese developers should have some examples. Any changes to UnReal or other choices to get a more calligraphic, hand-drawn line quality. I fumble with the Nodes, and don't get anything useful??? Anybody else??

3dbr
01-08-2018, 10:22 PM
LightWave 3D 2018 New Features Part 1 (CelShading)
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/216543000

paulhart
01-09-2018, 06:00 PM
3dbr, thank you. There were some items in the first video you posted that I found helpful. What I sincerely need, and haven't seen, is a thoughtful exploration of line rendering that looks hand drawn. I want to see thick and thin, tapered, responding to light source, so that the light side is thin and the 'away' side is thicker. I would love to see some thing that accounts for thicker lines in areas of greater occlusion. These are all the aspects that I learned, and use in drawing an anime figure and I would imagine someone has already worked out the nodes and settings to create more of that kind of look. I see from your avatar that you like to 'doodle' so I suspect you can understand. The trip that Rob took to Japan, had to have involved some discussion with the developers, over there, about such nuances of line control. I can't be the only one??
Can someone from Newtek respond, give examples, set up some Presets for Cel Shading and Line Rendering. This is such a potentially great contribution by Lightwave to the animation community. I love that I can see the line update in the VPR window, but if I don't have any idea how to get the lines I want, it is frustrating!!!

ernesttx
01-09-2018, 07:09 PM
paulhart, you're not alone. I'm mostly experimenting with the lines and trying different nodes and setups to try to get the lines that I want. I'll try to post some things this weekend; as that is the only time I have to devout to LW at the moment.

BeeVee
01-10-2018, 01:44 AM
Have you used the new Surface Shaded tool in the Edges tab, along with the nodal shading available since 2015? I believe these were developed in conjunction with Japanese anime studios (and we have a cel shader from Sublimation Studios in the Shading Model tab, too. I'd love to see some work using those.

B

paulhart
01-10-2018, 12:03 PM
Have you used the new Surface Shaded tool in the Edges tab, along with the nodal shading available since 2015? I believe these were developed in conjunction with Japanese anime studios (and we have a cel shader from Sublimation Studios in the Shading Model tab, too. I'd love to see some work using those.

B

I will continue my sorely inept muddling with the tools. Yes, there are things to explore and the contributions by the Japanese studios are welcome, but... without examples, presets, videos translated, it becomes a blind shooting at targets. There should be an entire video specifically demonstrating these contributions, with clear directions, node trees, whatever it takes. This is an area that Lightwave can/should dominate, but it seems like some kind of "secret knowledge" of the insiders club.

paulhart
01-11-2018, 09:23 PM
Just to keep this thread alive, in the faint hope that someone with more knowledge than me, (Hint, hint, Newtek??) will provide videos, demos, presets, node trees, settings, anything, on developing quality calligraphic lines, anime style, using the "NEW" available aspects of Lightwave. I am including a simple linetest, with simple objects and lighting. Note that I do have a thinner line on the 'light' side and thicker on the away side. Totally so-so, but I am sure someone else can dazzle us, Please??"
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paulhart
01-16-2018, 01:46 PM
Sensei, just sent an inquiry regarding new software he may be working on and asked me for a response. Surprise, .... here is what I sent back to him.

. . . .This would be a welcome addition to the tools for 2018, and I will be interested.
Since you asked, I would very much like help with "Line Rendering," specifically calligraphic hand-drawn types of lines. I would love to be able to make them "Thick and Thin" based on light source and/or Occlusion, much like I was trained in my MFA drawing classes. The line would be thin on the lit side and thicker on the 'away' side each object or part of a shape. Where there are tight turns of geometry, the lines would tend to also get thicker. A little bit of "noise" or "jitter" and variations in opacity help to make them more convincing as hand-drawn lines. I would then composite the line render over a watercolor like shader effect for the surfaces to complete the look. Hiyao Miyazaki, in "Spirited Away," and other animations are sources of inspiration, as well as Sylvain Chomet in "The Illusionist," and "The Triplets of Belleville." I know that both of these artist used XSI and Maya, as well as hand-drawn backdrops and textures.
You asked what might be needed, and this is something that I expected to do after the visit to Japan by Rob to visit the studios and developers there.
None of their shader work, videos, etc. has been translated or made available to the U.S. market yet, such a pity.
I look forward to whatever response you may have.
Thank you,

Paul

Skonk
01-16-2018, 02:07 PM
I quite like the new Cel tools.

I started building this years ago and did my usual thing of never finishing it. Defo easier to surface using the new Cel functions compared to the stuff available in LW 2015.

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paulhart
01-16-2018, 03:56 PM
I also used to be able to use a Gradient function, and set a different texture file as the source for each of the tonal layers, to create a sketch like effect.?
Here is a simple sphere with the look, as an example, however, when I try to load any of the 'old' files none of the Node Layouts, generate the effect intended, and I appear to have to start over??? A second example with simple objects from that same methodology.
Being able to generate a sketch effect of mild cross hatching is very useful, but I am having to start all over with 2018.
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Julez4001
01-17-2018, 01:49 AM
Batman Ninja is LW 2018 (Kamikaze is a LW house)
YS Plugins are robust and from Kamikaze, Yamato and Sublimation animation houses and they have english interface.
They have not been updated to 2018 yet.

paulhart
01-17-2018, 11:25 AM
Julez, Thank you. I was aware of these resources and for the life of me, cannot understand why Lightwave doesn't help get them translated and made available. The Plugins have been written, it is just English documentation and UI. I am afraid that after Rob left and Lino too, the 'core' of Lightwave isn't paying as much attention to the animation/rendering market, despite the strength of the Japanese and Asia studios. I hope for better, money in hand....;->)

paulhart
01-18-2018, 08:55 PM
Here is a relative recent render, using the Hatching Texture for the steps in the Gradient. I got it to work, similar to 11, and 2015, but with some limitations, as the Shaders are a missing piece of how this was done before. I have started another thread on this which is directed towards my second goal, Light influence variability in line rendering.
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?155766-NPR-Line-creation-test!!!-Challenge
Give it a whirl if you feel up to the challenge. I am still awaiting a helpful response from Newtek or closely related people. Maybe something flown in from Japan, Plugins? translated and released?? video demos shared with English.
I know, such a dreamer....
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paulhart
01-18-2018, 10:01 PM
In genuine affirmation of Lightwave and its use in the Japanese studios, particularly Kamikaze Studios, here is a link to a preview of their just released "Batman Ninja."
I have put together a small collage of screen grabs from the preview, along with the link address embedded in the image.
Notice the fine line work, thickness variations, adjusted to form. They are a Lightwave house, as noted above. Julez4001
I know that there are Plugins and workflow demos that would help us, with some support by Newtek in getting it over here and available.
https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/1/16721808/batman-ninja-anime-trailer-joker
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VermilionCat
01-18-2018, 11:39 PM
I once heard Kamikaze Douga uses AE to generate lines.

MichaelT
01-19-2018, 12:26 AM
If you are referring to facial lines, they look like textures to me (in the film) If you look at harlequin for instance, her hair (from outside in) have a clear line, and then a thinner line is abruptly appearing along it. Although that line looks to be hand drawn. Which is why I suspect they are having a texture underneath, so it will appear automatically where the line would end in LW.

I haven't looked into CEL yet, but aside from being able to control edge thickness in various cases, there is also nodes available for that. So maybe that works too?

But in short.. i think the game Borderlands uses the same technique.

Sensei
01-19-2018, 06:13 AM
Just playing..
http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=139592&d=1516366832
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It is possible to quantize output from one incidence (or anything else what you want to quantize!) other way than by using Gradient f.e. multiply by 10, floor, divide by 10.
http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=139593&d=1516366832
139593
In older LW you can take Shaders > Diffuse, quantize it using mul-floor-div, and use it instead of smooth version.

Pow nodes one with 0.5, 2nd one with 1.333.
http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=139594&d=1516366832
139594
Make null, Item Info node > World Position -> Split Vector, X axis plug to one Pow, Y axis plug to 2nd Pow, Z axis plug to Multiply & Divide.
Now you can move null in viewport and see how it changes in VPR.

paulhart
01-19-2018, 05:13 PM
Here is an example of a Cross-Hatched test file, simple objects and Tapered line. One of the things that I can't yet figure out, is that, before, I was able to have the Shadows cross hatched also, because I could designate the Shader model (Blinn, Phong, etc.) and then put the same Gradient input with the Textured components in for each step. Anybody have any ideas on this one???
Notice how in the older, second version, the shadows are hatched
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