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Snosrap
12-13-2017, 11:27 AM
The LW2018 webpage has a blurb about the Surface Editor and Material nodes. It says "The Surface Editor has been overhauled for the new shading system with powerful node-based materials under the hood that are presented with a familiar interface." Does that mean that as the user adjusts parameters in the surface editor there is a node tree being assembled and connected in the background that can then be accessed and further manipulated if one presses the "Edit Node Graph" button? If so that would be totally cool!!! More info from devs and beta testers please! :)

CaptainMarlowe
12-13-2017, 12:09 PM
the lw2018 webpage has a blurb about the surface editor and material nodes. It says "the surface editor has been overhauled for the new shading system with powerful node-based materials under the hood that are presented with a familiar interface." does that mean that as the user adjusts parameters in the surface editor there is a node tree being assembled and connected in the background that can then be accessed and further manipulated if one presses the "edit node graph" button? If so that would be totally cool!!! More info from devs and beta testers please! :)

qfa

RebelHill
12-13-2017, 12:24 PM
Not really, no. However all shaders are nodes now (like material nodes), and the interfaces for those materials are present on the editor main panel, so you can add skin, or conductor, or whatever, and adjust their standard parameters without having to open the node editor. If you want to add textures, gradients, or whatever to whichever attribute, you still set those up manually.

hrgiger
12-13-2017, 12:59 PM
Oliver Hotz has a script in his upcoming OD toolset which will automatically make connections if you have multiple surfaces selected and say you wanted change all of the surfaces at once

https://vimeo.com/213788810

gar26lw
12-13-2017, 02:47 PM
are shaders still allowed or are they now required to be nodes?

Matt
12-13-2017, 02:56 PM
are shaders still allowed or are they now required to be nodes?

Shaders had to die as part of this massive change over, they simply don't work in this new system.

gar26lw
12-13-2017, 02:59 PM
yeah, mass editing of common material and node parameters looks clunky.

what you want is to be able to select a bunch of surfaces, press edit nodes and have the node graph only display common nodes used across all surfaces. this way you could use the same bump procedural, for instance, across multiple surfaces.

i think there needs to also be the concept of scene wide surfaces that appear at the top of the surface editor and allow for mass surface applications. for instance you could push a procedural to every bump channel in the scene.

- - - Updated - - -


Shaders had to die as part of this massive change over, they simply don't work in this new system.

will there be a legacy node, that would allow the application of an old shader?

- - - Updated - - -


Oliver Hotz has a script in his upcoming OD toolset which will automatically make connections if you have multiple surfaces selected and say you wanted change all of the surfaces at once

https://vimeo.com/213788810

i think oliver’s tool needs a way to show names so you don’t need to find and remember. if possible.

Matt
12-13-2017, 03:13 PM
The LW2018 webpage has a blurb about the Surface Editor and Material nodes. It says "The Surface Editor has been overhauled for the new shading system with powerful node-based materials under the hood that are presented with a familiar interface."

Does that mean that as the user adjusts parameters in the surface editor there is a node tree being assembled and connected in the background that can then be accessed and further manipulated if one presses the "Edit Node Graph" button? If so that would be totally cool!!! More info from devs and beta testers please! :)

No, it means all materials / shading are now nodes, but you can edit them on the base level from the main Surface Editor, see attached.

That said, being able to build / navigate nodes from that top level GUI is something that we would like to do.

138844

Matt
12-13-2017, 03:15 PM
yeah, mass editing of common material and node parameters looks clunky.

You can still mass-edit same type materials, in fact you can select different materials and have them all show up on the top level, just not nodes connected into any of those material's parameters.

The video I attached in the previous post will make more sense.

Matt
12-13-2017, 03:17 PM
will there be a legacy node, that would allow the application of an old shader?

There is a standard material that acts pretty much as the previous LW standard material.

Like I said, shaders simply don't work at all in this new system.

Sensei
12-13-2017, 04:15 PM
The LW2018 webpage has a blurb about the Surface Editor and Material nodes. It says "The Surface Editor has been overhauled for the new shading system with powerful node-based materials under the hood that are presented with a familiar interface." Does that mean that as the user adjusts parameters in the surface editor there is a node tree being assembled and connected in the background that can then be accessed and further manipulated if one presses the "Edit Node Graph" button? If so that would be totally cool!!! More info from devs and beta testers please! :)

When you will open Surface Editor (on the left), you will see button "Edit Node Graph", after pressing it new Node Editor (on the right) will appear.
Whatever material is plugged to Material input (far right of Node Editor tree) is exposed to user in the main Surface Editor panel.
http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138845&d=1513206500
138845

After connecting different material node,
entire Surface Editor panel is updated to contain material-specific GUI.

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138846&d=1513206500
138846

From inside of TrueArt's Global Materials 2018 http://globalmaterials.trueart.eu you can control the all surfaces of the all objects..
http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138847&d=1513206500
138847

gar26lw
12-13-2017, 04:21 PM
@sensei - I think your global materials are going to be a prerequisite for 2018 users.

gar26lw
12-13-2017, 04:28 PM
No, it means all materials / shading are now nodes, but you can edit them on the base level from the main Surface Editor, see attached.

That said, being able to build / navigate nodes from that top level GUI is something that we would like to do.

138844

thanks. My first thought is that something like the shaders tab would be handy but instead of the old shaders, you can create a "shader" or "shaders" from the nodes and have it apply as an override like the old shaders system did. basically, global surface overrides.

little vids like this are great, thanks for making it; I like the multi select display, cheers to whoever pushed for that :)


Can you filter/sort surfaces by scene and object, like in old lightwave? If not, any chance of that option back in please

Snosrap
12-13-2017, 08:42 PM
No, it means all materials / shading are now nodes, but you can edit them on the base level from the main Surface Editor, see attached.

That said, being able to build / navigate nodes from that top level GUI is something that we would like to do.

Very nice. Is there a way to override every surface (temporarily) in the render panel maybe to do a clay rendering on every object in the scene?

Sensei
12-13-2017, 08:45 PM
Is there a way to override every surface (temporarily) in the render panel maybe to do a clay rendering on every object in the scene?

That's what Global Materials (http://globalmaterials.trueart.eu/) do. If it would be built-in LW, there would be no sense making it..

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138854&d=1513223578
138854

Sensei
12-13-2017, 08:57 PM
Can you filter/sort surfaces by scene and object, like in old lightwave? If not, any chance of that option back in please

You can enter name of surface, or name of material, you're interested in. Check my screen-shots from post #11. On the left of Node Editor above tree-list, there is Search text-field.

Snosrap
12-13-2017, 09:15 PM
That's what Global Materials (http://globalmaterials.trueart.eu/) do. If it would be built-in LW, there would be no sense making it..

Well you had all that for 2015 and I was hoping that with all the work done to the render engine that that feature would be native. Octane pulls it off, you pull it off, so why not the developer- especially when building a new system anyway. :)

gar26lw
12-14-2017, 01:04 AM
You can enter name of surface, or name of material, you're interested in. Check my screen-shots from post #11. On the left of Node Editor above tree-list, there is Search text-field.

yeah but if you have 5 objects with material name "grass" you want set "by scene" instead of "by object" for the surface mode so now you have one grass material that is saved with all five instances of that grass material, in each separate object. with out this, lightwave has taken a step back.

please add this feature back in matt.

GraphXs
12-14-2017, 08:13 AM
They are aware of the scene vs ovj material, I hope we can see it make a return in a future update!

sadkkf
12-14-2017, 10:48 AM
I seriously hope the documentation is updated and thorough.

Asticles
12-14-2017, 10:54 AM
Why not publish now the help site so so we can start checking?

Matt
12-14-2017, 11:32 AM
yeah but if you have 5 objects with material name "grass" you want set "by scene" instead of "by object" for the surface mode so now you have one grass material that is saved with all five instances of that grass material, in each separate object. with out this, lightwave has taken a step back.

please add this feature back in matt.

Search for grass, select all, edit. Same thing.

50one
12-14-2017, 01:06 PM
Any word on the shading presets?

gar26lw
12-14-2017, 02:40 PM
Search for grass, select all, edit. Same thing.

you are aware that the ux is now worse than before in this regard? you are suggesting a workaround to get similar results but now we must do that EVERY time we want to edit a surface in a scene with lots of objects with common surfaces.

switching to edit by scene was much better and way more user friendly than having to stop, type the surface name to filter, then edit, then stop again, type the next filter, edit, stop and type the filter, edit, stop and type the previous filter, edit, stop, type another filter, edit, stop...

before you set the mode and just edited the surfaces.

you get that, right? it says ux designer in your sig, don’t fall into that trap that has plagued lw dev of “yeah if you do these x steps it’s the same thing”. no, it’s x amount of steps and that is not the same. lightwave need’s to be fast and intuitive, not complicated and full of workarounds.

please could you add the feature back in matt.

gar26lw
12-14-2017, 11:09 PM
@matt I wonder if the material mixer node and layer node/layered textures have the option to blend in soft light, hard light and overlay. I know that they were missing before and only available in the old 9.6 layered textures in the surface editor.
could you check please.

@sensei - looks like you just took pole position.

"shaderMeister is not supported anymore.
shaderMeister depends on the availability of shader plugins. These have been dropped for LightWave 3D 2018 and no hooks were added to allow for global shading. This, unfortunately, forces us to stop development of shaderMeister."

That's a real shame, I do hope there can be a solution in the future.
Db&W are great guys, I hope we get those hooks.

I was looking to see if the render passes are anti-aliased. I used shadermiester as in this link to get AA material and instance IDs out :

https://www.db-w.com/products/shadermeister/interviews/136-marc-a-swiss-shadermeister?showall=1&limitstart=

with its global override.

Also good for occlusion, I would find that AO and colour bleed there gave better results than via the pixel filters.


Do you have any details/examples of pass output and AA ? I guess this is one of the problems with 3rd party picking up the tab in certain areas. Bit disappointed here to see that SM is dead.

Sensei
12-15-2017, 12:58 AM
Did you see f.e. this video tutorial of Global Materials?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbrlhMfIgPU

I showed how to set up GM to have completely different pass, depending on which camera is currently active..

You can get it now, and play with it today. GM 2018 will be the next month without additional costs.

gar26lw
12-15-2017, 01:03 AM
Did you see f.e. this video tutorial of Global Materials?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbrlhMfIgPU

I showed how to set up GM to have completely different pass, depending on which camera is currently active..

You can get it now, and play with it today. GM 2018 will be the next month without additional costs.


thanks Sensei, i’ll go check that out!

probiner
12-15-2017, 04:31 AM
@Matt
Only concern about the Projection data type is that is not editable like Vector data type mapping nodes Denis Pontonnier shipped, Replace Spot, or even the native Position input.

I understand there's more to the new data type than mapping coordinates, but check these examples of editing mapping coordinates:


This is XSI but I've done similar thing in LW:
https://giant.gfycat.com/ShabbySeriousDrafthorse.gif

https://i.imgur.com/Ka03sGs.png


The shutters on this building were done by manipulating mapping positions:
https://i.imgur.com/PTKsdb2.png

Here's the Position input in the old Image node used in a way that works similar to the mapping component of that projection input:
Exposed and then Compounded to show how it can resemble the new nodes.
https://i.imgur.com/9J6hphf.png


So while I understand more than just a vector might go under that new data type, please provide a way to extract the UV(W) from it and to feed it back in! This allows custom mapping and since you guys looked into have those done through nodes, giving users the ability yo manipulate the mapping is a powerful too!

Cheers

probiner
12-15-2017, 04:38 AM
https://i.imgur.com/DP5AfeX.gif

Sensei
12-15-2017, 11:09 AM
probiner, there is couple built-in projection nodes.
3rd party developer can make his/her own projection nodes.
They have some parameters and output projection output which can be plugged to some other nodes.

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138882&d=1513361163 138882

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138883&d=1513361163 138883

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138884&d=1513361163 138884

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138885&d=1513361163 138885

probiner
12-16-2017, 01:23 PM
Hey Sensei. That's nice. But also means you can only pre-transform. You can't retrieve the mapping positions and make decisions based on them and maybe even plug it back into the Projection. I was told Projection is not just mapping coordinates, which would make something I'm mentioning hard, but you can understand that while this new feature is well rounded and simplifies the most common tasks, there could be also a well rounded way for it to accommodate custom mapping.

Cheers