PDA

View Full Version : Lightwave Sliders are still in a joking horrific state for over a decade...!!



Paul_Boland
12-13-2017, 07:36 AM
Hi Folks, and particularly Newtek, LW3DG.

Over a decade ago, Lightwave 3D 8 came out and this was the first version of Lightwave that I got. I moved over to Lightwave from Caligari's TrueSpace. One of the tools I had in TrueSpace was called Puppeteer, a slider control interface. I quickly fell in love with the power this interface offered for animations. Just rig all joints to a slider, setting min and max degrees of movement, and then when animating, just grab a slider and pull it to where you want at specific keyframes. It was a very quick way to animate.

138834

Given that Lightwave was a much more powerful, much more commercial piece of software compared to TrueSpace, I assumed that it had slider controls too, and it does. But back in Lightwave 8 I quickly realised that their implementation was extremely poor, and broken!!

The control interface appears in every viewport you have open when in multi-viewport mode.
The actual controls on the slider interface didn't work, the little arrows do nothing.
You can't click on the numbers to type in specific degrees of movement you want.
And there is no backing to the controls so in a detailed scene, it's very hard to see the controls.

138833

Back then, when I was using Lightwave 8, over a decade ago, I brought these issues to light on the forum here. Many people agreed with me that sliders were a mess and long needed an update. Time passed... Lightwave 9... Lightwave 10... Lightwave 11... Lightwave 2015... Sliders remained a mess, no updates at all, making using them very difficult and very unprofessional. I kept highlighting the problems and others kept supporting my call for an update.
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?139880-Lightwave-s-Sliders!!&highlight=sliders

Then when Lightwave Next was in development, someone told me to actually submit my request for the Sliders update to Newtek themselves for the next version of Lightwave so I did. I highlighted all the issues and I supplied the graphic above and I did get a reply acknowledging the request but informing me that it may not be implemented into Lightwave Next.

Time passed, a lot of time, with no news of Lightwave Next, and then finally, yesterday, Newtek announced Lightwave 2018! Great news indeed, and it showed that over all that time of silence, work was being done on Lightwave 2018 so with Newtek people answering questions, I posted to the main topic and asked if sliders had been updated? I got a prompt reply which I appreciated, but the answer I did not. No, sliders have not been updated, they are still in this broken messy state!

I don't mean to distract from all the excitement on the forums now over Lightwave 2018, I am indeed excited myself. But Lightwave's Sliders have been broken for OVER A DECADE!! The Sliders interface controls, which the Lightwave manual tells you they work...DON'T WORK!! And the way they are displayed on screen, in EVERY viewport and with no background of their own so they are lost in a detailed scene, is a stain and a joke on Lightwave.

I appreciate that perhaps Sliders are a low priority tool for features to work on in a new Lightwave version, but would it really be a BIG task to just fix them. Here's what's needed...
1. Put Sliders into their own window, the N key window, so they don't appear on every viewport and have a background of their own so they are not lost in the scene.
2. Fix the broken nudge arrows because they don't work at all.
3. Fix the actual digital readout so you can click on it and type in the number you want.

I don't think this would take a lot of time to fix and it would remove that blemish from Lightwave that has been there for over a decade, and offer up a very powerful and useful animation controls interface. I just felt I had to highlight this now because I use Sliders a lot but working with them is a nightmare!! As I said above, I don't want to distract from all the joy and excitement on the forum over Lightwave 2018, I'm excited myself, but COME ON, Newtek, LW3DG, please just take the short bit of time from your work schedule and PLEASE FIX LIGHTWAVE'S SLIDERS!!!

GandB
12-13-2017, 08:00 AM
Keep at it Paul. Squeeky wheel and all that. I truly hope that things turn around here; as someone put it: it's good to have alternatives.

Greenlaw
12-13-2017, 11:17 AM
I agree. Sliders have always been clunky in LW. Instead, I use nulls/objects as controllers which are easier to set up and work with...but a better working sliders system would be welcome/preferred for many situations.

Did somebody make a third party sliders replacement a while back? Sorry, I'm not really sure, just asking.

paulhart
12-13-2017, 11:36 AM
Way overdue for an upgrade. Why??!! do the sliders show up in all of the windows?? A floating panel with a clean background is needed. This is such an important tool, it doesn't deserve to be ignored. I mean, really, do any of the Lightwave staff ever use sliders?? That should be enough to request and make a change!!

Kaptive
12-13-2017, 12:39 PM
This is a tricky one. Sliders are useful, but as Greenlaw says, for the most part it is much easier to apply controls to a null. The only time I really come into contact with sliders is when using one of Craigs rigs (rhiggit) for FK/IK controls.
It is also worth noting that previous example/tutorial controlled rigs (like spaceships etc) as well as Genoma (for the FK/IK controls) are also on a null, so maybe that is the prefered evangelised method of control from LW3DG itself. I've not really seen anyone from LW3DG use sliders for anything in any demos/tutes... certainly not in any recent memory.

So, it is perhaps a very niche need that is more to do with your original learned method than standard practices. However... that said, if the slider panel was recreated (hey why not throw in some interesting blending 2 directional sliders as well) that was more akin to the morphmixer panel, then it'd probably get more use for rigging setups. You are absolutely right though, it is an awkward functioning aspect of LW. The real question is whether enough people use it to justify the bumping up the (no doubt) loooong list of things that could be upgraded.

Though, now some ground work has been put in for the future (i.e. new engine), updates to these kinds of things might be much more likely to appear on the radar. I think a control panel for rigs of any kind would be useful.. customisable, with various controller types. Knobs.. sliders, switches, tick boxes... I dunno.. just thinking how to make it more fun and interesting so that it becomes a bit of a feature. That way it is more likely to get done if it brings something new to the table.

Paul_Boland
12-13-2017, 02:12 PM
Thanks for the support and feedback. Perhaps Sliders are the past but as Keptive said, it's what I know and love. I'm sure others use them too. For these to be documented in the manual as working, but them not working, and their implementation is so poorly done, really, Newtek, LW3DG, it's time for them to get a small bit of attention please!!

gar26lw
12-13-2017, 02:24 PM
it would be good to see a fix as part of a new habbit of correcting long standing issues, which will help build trust and faith in dev.

Dan Ritchie
12-13-2017, 02:25 PM
I did a slider custom object script a while back. It is here.

http://squirreldome.com/Plugins.htm

I pulled this from a backup, so let me know if I got it right.

Matt
12-13-2017, 02:34 PM
Have you reported any of this?

Greenlaw
12-13-2017, 02:41 PM
I did a slider custom object script a while back. It is here.

Thanks, Dan! I'll check it out. :)

Kryslin
12-13-2017, 02:43 PM
If it hasn't, it should be. If it was, it might be lost in the three different systems that Newtek has used throughout the years to collect bug and feature request information...

Greenlaw
12-13-2017, 02:55 PM
It's been a very long time since I last used Sliders. Back then, I think Sliders worked as intended, just not the way I liked. My main beef was that it appeared as an overlay on every viewport, and using it seemed a little unintuitive.

I'd much rather see Sliders in a separate window, and maybe with tabs for other slider sets or groups.

For me anyway, it's no biggie. Using objects as controllers has worked out for me for years.

It would be cool to see a new and improved take on Sliders in the future though.

Matt
12-13-2017, 03:22 PM
I would like to add they are not _broken_ as you say Paul (other than a zoom issue that is now fixed, so actually, they were touched in this release).

They just don't work as NICELY as they should I agree.

Paul_Boland
12-13-2017, 05:34 PM
Thanks for the continued input and the link. Matt, yes, I did report this to Newtek, twice I believe, not counting all the forums posts I made about them.

Paul_Boland
12-16-2017, 01:57 PM
I would like to add they are not _broken_ as you say Paul (other than a zoom issue that is now fixed, so actually, they were touched in this release).

They just don't work as NICELY as they should I agree.

Matt, just want to come back to this topic and address what you said here.
The nudge arrows don't work at all, since Lightwave 8!
The number fields that you can click on to type in the number you want, don't work at all, since Lightwave 8!
And the actually sliders implementation, appearing in every viewport, with no backing hence they get lost in a detailed scene, since Lightwave 8, is very poorly implemented indeed!

I'm glad to hear something was fixed, but simply put, it's not that they don't work as nicely as they should, they simply don't work at all! It's time for Sliders to get a proper update and be fixed please.

Paul_Boland
04-18-2018, 02:19 PM
I would like to add they are not _broken_ as you say Paul (other than a zoom issue that is now fixed, so actually, they were touched in this release).

They just don't work as NICELY as they should I agree.

Lightwave 2015 Sliders:
141294

Lightwave 2018 Sliders:
141295

Working with Sliders in Lightwave 2018:
141296

I have submitted a bug report about this in the hope to finally see some love given to the Sliders after a decade of not "working as NICELY as they should". Please, Newtek, show Sliders some love... :(

Qexit
04-18-2018, 02:56 PM
Lightwave 2015 Sliders:
141294

I have submitted a bug report about this in the hope to finally see some love given to the Sliders after a decade of not "working as NICELY as they should". Please, Newtek, show Sliders some love... :(I understand your problem(s) with the sliders but your first screen grab is for LW 10.1 not LW 2015 according to the label at the top of the screen.

OnlineRender
04-18-2018, 05:38 PM
BTW you can change the colours of the sliders if you are having issues seeing them ...

jeric_synergy
04-18-2018, 06:30 PM
FWIW, I added Sliders to a null, and the labels came in in a VARIETY of colors, automagically (W10/2018.0.1 --sheesh, I should update):

141298

So, that (visibility issues) seems to have been addressed.

Other than that, use of sliders is not at all intuitive, and appearing in all vuports simultaneously seems dumb.

ALSO (ha!): when you choose a color from the Slider dialog, the channel label color is not updated instantly, it is put off until you close the dialog. WEAK. Smells like the '90's.

(...more research) AND, once you've changed a channel's color... oh wait, it's a "one-off" bug: the first time you chose an altered-color channel after invoking the Slider dialog, it does not display the correct (ie, altered) color in the color swatch, no matter how many times you click on that channel. Once you select a different channel, all the colors are correctly displayed. It's like the color list is initialized, but not correctly invoked each time a channel is selected, i.e. never checked to see if the label colors have been changed. Again, weak: the invocation of the color query needs to be moved to where it will always be called appropriately.

FEEDBACK AGENT would not allow me to submit this, SEND was ghosted....

jwiede
04-19-2018, 03:51 PM
It's quite disappointing that after having left LW's sliders in such a barely-maintained, dysfunctional state for so very long, the primary Newek participation in this thread was to admonish Paul that his use of the term "broken" was incorrect.

jeric_synergy
04-19-2018, 05:13 PM
It's quite disappointing that after having left LW's sliders in such a barely-maintained, dysfunctional state for so very long, the primary Newek participation in this thread was to admonish Paul that his use of the term "broken" was incorrect.

+1

:devil::thumbsdow:thumbsdow:thumbsdow

Julez4001
04-20-2018, 08:19 AM
Messiah:Studio Sliders worked perfectly day one.

Seems like I will still be using as a character animation tool.
Funny, its defunct as a commerical software but it was so advanced and out front, LW seems have not caught up in terms of intuitiveness and ease of use.

jeric_synergy
04-20-2018, 09:13 AM
Messiah:Studio Sliders worked perfectly day one.

Seems like I will still be using as a character animation tool.
Funny, its defunct as a commerical software but it was so advanced and out front, LW seems have not caught up in terms of intuitiveness and ease of use.

If only they had been actual businesspeople instead of merely stellar programmers. Intelligence is not transitive... fungible? Universally applicable.

Smart people != smart businesspeople.

+++++++

Also: I agree: How come those guys knew how to implement sliders properly, and why doesn't LWG just plagiarize the f*** out of their UI? No need to reinvent the wheel.

Julez4001
04-20-2018, 07:44 PM
Never to make excuses for people, but the entire team left and was down to just Fori. I don't think he can beboth programmer and business but he tried those last few years. When Dan and Lyle was onboard it was another story.

jeric_synergy
04-21-2018, 02:05 AM
That just makes me wonder why people left.

Julez4001
04-21-2018, 10:40 AM
THE CG pool is limited. You can only have so many apps available for people to learn. PMG should have never delved into Render. They should have totally focus on animation and character animation. Animation layering, procedural displacement for FX, myraid of rigging tools for animals and faces. The irony is that Arnold ends up replacing Mental Ray in Maya.

jeric_synergy
04-21-2018, 12:12 PM
PMG should have never delved into Render.
I could not AGREE more: why they opened that infinite can of worms is beyond me, when they HAD an exceptionally good resource in hand.

Dumb.

It's like coders are just FASCINATED with rendering --- guys, other people have a huge head start on you. Don't go there.

jwiede
04-22-2018, 04:31 PM
Julez, what happened to PMG has NOTHING to do with the sliders problem in LW, though.

:hijack:

As the sliders problem in LW isn't at all fixed yet, and needs to be, perhaps go start a new "what happened to PMG" thread instead?