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View Full Version : If Lightwave is dead, where will you go next for your 3D software? Where will I go?



Paul_Boland
11-23-2017, 03:03 PM
Hi Folks.

Just a fun topic and a bit of discussion here, not intending to start a new monster topic on where is Lightwave Next (if it ever appears!!).

Let's say this is it for Lightwave 3D, it's over. Where would you go next for your 3D software needs? I've been looking at what's out there... For me, it has to be a standalone license for my 3D software, there is no way I would go, or could afford to go, subscription based. So that leaves me with Modo, Cinema 4D, Blender, and Houdini. Are there others?

I've been down this path before when Caligari's TrueSpace came to an end and I moved over to Lightwave. It was a slow process but I got here and I love Lightwave! But if Lightwave is gone, then where do I go next? Thought this would be a fun topic to discuss what possibilities we all could be facing in the future if LW3DG don't speak up and let us know what's happening...???

hrgiger
11-23-2017, 03:13 PM
This thread won't last long...

I already picked up Modo back at 901. I mainly bought it as a modeler replacement since Modeler doesn't get updated but have moved a lot of my work to it over LightWave. I'm mainly an asset creator so Modo's focus on asset creation and rendering is ideal for me. I'm learning Houdini a bit on the side but its slow going as I don't have a lot of time to invest in it. But Modo is just one app for asset creation, I also use Zbrush, Substance Painter and Designer, Unreal Engine...and just picked up Marvelous Designer today for Black Friday.

My advice, don't think of one app as replacing another. If one doesn't do everything you need it to do, pick up another app, it doesn't mean you have to replace anything.

TheLexx
11-23-2017, 03:23 PM
Carrara comes to mind as an addition on the list. Also, the one company which went even more silent than Newtek was PMG with Messiah, but as far as I know it is actually still for sale, so you could technically go, say, Hexagon for modelling with Messiah Studio as the dynamic duo.....but it would take a very brave man to test the Buy button with Messiah. It would depend on what you envisage doing with it, so 4D would appeal to someone like me much more than Houdini (and be sure to check the Houdini "transferring machine" rules very carefully). But I'll venture that Blender is the "real answer" to your question.

But remember, it ain't over for LW yet......(I'm ducking now). :)

Ernest
11-23-2017, 03:25 PM
Well, if you're the queen of England, or you're in her tax bracket, you can go for Autodesk or C4D.

For mere mortals, the options are rather limited. LW can't do what Houdini can, but Houdini can't really be used practically for what most of us do with LW. So that pretty much leaves just Modo and Blender. And sadly Modo has a lot of the same core problems as LW, regarding large poly counts, large numbers of rigged characters, etc. That's why I keep coming and hoping that LW will survive and that the new core will really deliver as advertised, even though it often feels like LWG doesn't want us here.

gar26lw
11-23-2017, 03:26 PM
modo and maya. i don’t think anyone codes at lwg and that’s what’s holding things up. someone in managment finally figured it out and stepped in to start coding. so all good now.

Nicolas Jordan
11-23-2017, 03:31 PM
Even if Lightwave development stopped I would likely continue using it for a long while until it had issues running on modern hardware and Windows. I already own Modo and know it fairly well but since LWCAD is available for Cinema 4D and would probably take a good hard look at that to see if it met my current needs for it's price. Cinema 4D appears to be out of my price range though. Pros and Cons to everything. I just hope the future of Lightwave is bright but we haven't really been reassured in any meaningful way that's the case.

GandB
11-23-2017, 03:47 PM
Blender. They actually communicate with their user-base regularly. The gripes I hear about the UI are not that hard to get over, if you actually give it a shot (and they are working on updating it as well). It is growing by leaps and bounds, and already does most (if not all) of what I need as a game artist (most engines support Blender natively now). As many have said before; NewTek has only themselves to blame for the continuing exodus and ill-will felt towards them. I also don't believe there's some "legal" "thing" that is prohibiting them from talking; if there was...they put themselves in that situation as well. But; Blender/Photoshop (for now)/Quixel Suite. The sculpting tools native to Blender are sufficient for now; may move to another app at some point.

I too remember the Caligari/TS debacle, Paul.....and not fondly. I still remember the unenviable position TomG was put in.

aperezg
11-23-2017, 05:01 PM
Maybe this can help to decide

https://i.materialise.com/blog/top-25-most-popular-3d-modeling-design-software-for-3d-printing/

https://all3dp.com/1/best-free-3d-modeling-software-3d-cad-3d-design-software/

https://www.g2crowd.com/categories/3d-modeling

I decide to use...LightWave
Until the end of LW life, and beyond, if the last LW software won't work in a future mac OS systems.
Well I keep the hardware until the hardware dead.. its mean between five to ten years more.

Farhad_azer
11-23-2017, 05:10 PM
I also will stick with LW. I trully enjoy while using it.

Kryslin
11-23-2017, 05:55 PM
Hmm... An interesting question. I'd probably pick up Blender again, and work with it... And use NC Renderman as the renderer. Still have a license for Rhino 3D, so I'm good for CAD/CAM/3DP. But really, until something major breaks between LW and the OS... Lightwave it is, until the bitter, bitter end. :)

shrox
11-23-2017, 07:04 PM
I'd stay with Lightwave. For the stuff I am doing now it's great. I do mostly sci-fi space still images, so that alone simplifies things. If I got hired to direct a $200 million budget animated feature, the animators can use whatever they want...

Paul_Boland
11-23-2017, 09:21 PM
Thanks for all the feedback. I, like others above, totally love Lightwave and would want to stick with it until issues started to arise. I am really hoping that a new Lightwave Next really is on the way...

But if it's not, where do I go...?

As I said, I can't afford to go subscription based so that rules out Autodesk stuff. I've never used Blender so I would give it a try and see what it's like. I love the power in Houdini but everyone says it's totally foreign in how it works. So that leaves Modo and Cinema 4D. Cinema 4D is very expensive and would be a huge investment in itself. Modo is highly priced too but I do think that is where I would be leaning if I had to walk that path again.

I just hope I don't have to walk that path again. Come on, LW3DG, give us some news!!

Surrealist.
11-23-2017, 09:32 PM
Since 2008 I have already decided to expand my software choices.

But if I was a LightWave artist now, looking to move sideways I think I would start with Modo Indie and Houdini Indie.

Both are in real strong development phases right now.

Personally I just think the C4D offerings are a bit overpriced and the concept of licencing levels I think is a bad idea. Side Effects I think finally dropped that. I think Maxon needs to rethink things at little. My opinion.

But after giving those two (Modo and Houdini) a go at the Indie level for a year or so I would then decide which one I need more for the pro version. If at all. Earlier depending on your needs.

As for the other aspects of the process it is s given that artists already use some kind of app to aid in modeling if you are doing serious character work for example and incorporate a sculpt workflow. So there is no need to include those choices.

And of course the same is true for painting.

But that said. For a number of years I have been on the Mudbox beta. And it has been dead. But it just lit up a couple of months ago. Much to our surprise.

So I will just mention that at 10 bucks a month or even cheaper yearly it may be a viable option for those that don't need Zbrush. It is a wait and see. Just don't write it off yet.

If you have a small studio Blender can not be a better recommendation. It has saved my arse many times. No matter what format I have to deliver assets in I have unlimited seats to create them in. And a pool of artists to use it.

Luckily, dispite the rants of a very small percentage of users, artists take to Blender very quickly. And my artists fluently jump between Maya and Blender on a daily basis. I have personally trained many. So I have seen this first hand.

If you are looking to hire new talent you will find that schools are starting to teach it. And even where they are not, kids are finding it.

And while it might be a running joke that the average Blender user is a preteen, guess what? They all grow up.

There are artists in their 20s now who have been using it for a decade.

And currently in the unis you have more artists discovering it within the last few years.

So it is a strong alternative to Autodesk. And this is getting stronger with each release.

It would work as a good companion to Modo and Houdini as well.

Lastly there is Maya LT.

It is a vital tool at my studio. Mainly for us in hand retopo. We tested it against Modo and for us it won out.

Also for some things a few of my artists prefer it for modeling. So I have a few seats to spread around for that option and of course our go-to tool for hand retopo.

For auto retopo we mainly use Zremesher.

Some people swear by 3D coat for both hand and auto retopo.

Black Friday!

I don't think In will go with 3D Coat this year. But I am going to snatch a few substance licences.

erikals
11-23-2017, 09:46 PM
Blender. There's really no reason not to.

Unless you are anti-Blender Ui... some are. Not a Fan of the Ui myself, however, with a hack or two it kinda works.

I could write a Pro-Blender list, but it would be too long.

gar26lw
11-23-2017, 11:30 PM
yeah there is a deal out in 3d coat. worth a look.

Gungho3D
11-23-2017, 11:54 PM
Good question, has probably crossed most LW user's minds ...

For me it has come down to future proofing, and much as I love LW (been using it 20+ years), I've not actively recommended it to anyone for a while now ...

Got Modo just over a year ago, installed it, played around with the procedural modeling, love the Mesh Fusion capability. However, the daily push of needing to get stuff done super fast still leaves me with LW as King, and like some others have commented, as long as it works and I can bend it to do what I want and render the results that I like, to that extent I'm not about to hang up the LW gloves ...

... but that's not to say I'm not future proofing, so Modo is definitely in view.

The other tool is Rhino3D. This is a unique and brilliant toolset, I absolutely love how Rhino has stretched my understanding regards how industrial and other designers view edge blending, and currently nothing available to LW does what Rhino can. I suppose some LW users have gravitated towards LXCAD, I've gone down a Rhino path.

Ah yes, Blender. The sheer hive of interest around that product by devs and users and the amazing, creative outcomes being achieved is impressive. Hey yeah I know about the UI etc etc. Even so, this product is impressive ... although I don't think I'm ready to "ditch all" in its favour.

Amerelium
11-24-2017, 03:06 AM
As long as LW lets me create what I want; nowhere. I see no need to update just for the sake of it being available.

OlaHaldor
11-24-2017, 03:07 AM
I'm all in on Modo. Got it about two and a half years ago. Barely touched LightWave after that. The only couple of things that bring me back to LW is Profiler and Engraver in LWCAD, and TFD for smoke/fire. All the rest is Modo.
I picked up Zbrush last year during a sale as well. So those are my go to tools.


So why do I hang around here?

Because I'm very interested to see where LW Next goes before I decide whether to keep on upgrading my license or not.

Marander
11-24-2017, 03:57 AM
Completely switched to C4D with R17 - R18 - R19 and lots of nice plugins (XP, Forester, LWCAD, TFD, Vray, Cycles, PIM, anima, Nitro4D, all of GSG like Signal/Transform/HDRI tools, MeshBoolean, Seamilar, Polygnome etc.).

Using it along with Vue xStream, 3D-Coat, Worldmachine+Geoglyph.

There is nothing LW can offer me currently that is not better solved elsewhere (and that includes the plugins I have like AP, TFD, LWCAD, 3rd Powers, RR Tools, OD Tools and more).

Starting LW now feels like going back 20 years.

However still interested in LWNext demo but I don't think I will upgrade, except a miracle happens and they took the time to fix longstanding bugs and implement more features than in the blogs.

Otterman
11-24-2017, 04:07 AM
Migrating over to Maya + vray. Its a love hate thing.

Be interested to hear from other users on the same journey. Still can't get my head around the lack of cut and paste of geometry....painful. Vray however is so sexy.

Surrealist.
11-24-2017, 04:14 AM
If you can afford it, can't go wrong with Maya. Also check out Arnold. Really nice render package. And real easy to use. I think more so than Vray. Just my opinion. If you are experimenting with Rendering also have a look at Renderman.

But as far as Maya feedback. I like the app, found it easy to learn. Recent versions really looking sharp.

CaptainMarlowe
11-24-2017, 05:13 AM
I have expanded my toolbox over the years with 3D-Coat, substance suite and a few other tools. For rendering, I'm learning Unreal Engine, and adding also Houdini to the toolbox. I'll stick to LW as long as it works because all other tools are just more tools which I use for dedicated tasks, but it ends sooner or later in LW.
When it stops to work, then Blender, if 2.8 happens to be stable someday. :D

mav3rick
11-24-2017, 05:52 AM
well.... as this waiting now takes too long i have also came across idea where to go next.. so definitely one of choices will be MODO as i already own MODO 10 and all the previous versions but never really used it.
during that transition i will keep use lw...

Norka
11-24-2017, 05:59 AM
Paul, I've seen you mention a couple times now that money is tight, and you can't do subscriptions etc... And you also say you have not tried Blender... You are aware that Blender is 100% FREE and open-source, right? As my hatred/disgust with Blender starts to diminish with each new version, I have less and less trouble recommending it. I think I can officially give it a thumbs-up in 2.79...

I think I would look at Modo and Maya, if LW did indeed go boobs-up.

Anyone try Silo for modeling? I just came across for first time (that I can remember) looking at Black Friday sales list earlier, and I'm a little intrigued by it...

Otterman
11-24-2017, 06:29 AM
It astounds me how much praise Blender gets and how capable it has become, kinda makes lightwave a joke....and its free. For me however, as a pro I CAN'T justify learning it. Wont help with employment and not something employers, studios etc are looking for. Better confined to the hobbiest's unless I'm very much mistaken.

tyrot
11-24-2017, 06:36 AM
lightwave cannot die ... sorry.

ary3d
11-24-2017, 06:36 AM
lightwave 11.6 gives me everything I need for at least 20 years more, Lightwave forever

fablefox
11-24-2017, 06:46 AM
This thread won't last long...

I already picked up Modo back at 901. I mainly bought it as a modeler replacement since Modeler doesn't get updated but have moved a lot of my work to it over LightWave. I'm mainly an asset creator so Modo's focus on asset creation and rendering is ideal for me. I'm learning Houdini a bit on the side but its slow going as I don't have a lot of time to invest in it. But Modo is just one app for asset creation, I also use Zbrush, Substance Painter and Designer, Unreal Engine...and just picked up Marvelous Designer today for Black Friday.

My advice, don't think of one app as replacing another. If one doesn't do everything you need it to do, pick up another app, it doesn't mean you have to replace anything.

I own 401. And still own it (401). Also just to replace modeller. Haven't bothered to upgrade because Blender kept me busy (https://developer.blender.org/p/fablefox/). Fun hobby. Probably push back upgrading because I just purchased Cintiq Pro 13. Love drawing.

hrgiger
11-24-2017, 07:03 AM
lightwave cannot die ... sorry.

Its a nice thought. But it certainly doesn't reflect what has been happening to LightWave over the last several many years and the only reason its still here is because NT also happens to generate enough money in their video business to keep it hobbling along at this point. And they're certainly not doing themselves any favors by the way they're handling things now. And now we've been waiting for 3 years for features almost every other application out there has already...

mav3rick
11-24-2017, 07:08 AM
lightwave cannot die ... sorry.

hahaha just like amiga... and somehow current lw situation reminds me of Amiga history almost 100% :) we just need to see outcome...

Luc_Feri
11-24-2017, 07:23 AM
Yeah Paul, Blender is a great choice it's coming on leaps and bounds all the time from what I read, plenty of tutorials too.

I would combine Substance Designer/Painter with Blender mate, and mabe use a free 3D engine either Unreal or Unity.

wesleycorgi
11-24-2017, 08:31 AM
I've tried to remain positive. But at this point, it is prudent to look at other tools. I have Modo up until the 8 series, but it never really clicked with me. And I have started learning Blender. So thanks to Richard for his series of tutorials.

For Black Friday, I jumped back into Anima 3D; I sat out on version 2. Even though they have given up on Mac, they do have Unreal 3D support. Interesting to note: if you purchase directly from Axyz, the price is 25% off so it is currently 186.75 Euros. However, I purchased through one of their resellers (CG River) and they charged US$186.75, which saved me a roughly an additional $35.

tischbein3
11-24-2017, 09:11 AM
No matter how well a certain 3d application is positioned, its always a good idea to keep an eye on the alternatives.
But I would not make any financial commitment just on the mood of this forum.

roboman
11-24-2017, 09:25 AM
Well it's not like they are going to come rip Lightwave off my harddrive, so I would keep using it, until one day I found myself using something else and not Lightwave. Some of the CAD programs are making moves towards Animation and have been for a while. There is Blender and to a limited extent Daz. Modo is worth a look at again and I still have an older copy of Max. With the little paid work I do and the hobby stuff, I think Lightwave is still good for a while, as is. I still wish it had other things and was more widely used, as that brings more things,

kopperdrake
11-24-2017, 10:01 AM
My head tells me Max, but I used it years ago and hated it. My work, product shots, arch viz, general product animation, would be perfect for it. The amount of arch viz assets for Max is staggering. But still, my heart sinks at the thought.

My heart tells me Cinema4D. I already rely on TFD, Octane, Anima and LWCAD, so that would be the better sideways jump for me I suspect.

Maya is just too big for me - only two seats here of LW, so we're not a huge outfit. Not big enough to get the most out of it.

I just really hope LWG pull their fingers out of their behinds and release a new LW so I can scratch the decision from my mid-range to-do list and get on with life :)

bazsa73
11-24-2017, 11:15 AM
Hello guys, just my 2 cents.
We at work (building projection, video mapping) use max mostly, that's the main app except for me. I use LW, Maya, Blender for smoke and now I started Houdini and
there is one more guys who started Houdini too and one is already quite good with flip fluids and smokes etc. I see the future in Houdini. Node networks and coding is the way
as I see it. It is very difficult in the beginning, you really have to learn math etc. but once you have reached that level there are no more boundaries anymore.

jwiede
11-24-2017, 12:18 PM
Are there others?

Plenty, depending on your specific platform and needs. Strata3D is still around, as is Shade3D. On Mac, there's an awesome little "one-man" app called Cheetah3D which is surprisingly capable. There are others as well. Which to consider depends entirely on your needs.

In order to make this discussion more useful than a simple recitation of available pkgs, will you please provide some (prioritized) sense of your requirements?

Rayek
11-24-2017, 01:20 PM
Daz3D and Poser! Ultimate combo! :hat: ;)

hypersuperduper
11-24-2017, 02:07 PM
When it comes to Main apps, Houdini seems like the most exciting alternative to me, partially because it’s entire philosophy seems to be the polar opposite of Lightwave’s. Ironically it was the first 3D app I ever used way back in school in the 90s. Never understood anything and just played with Nurbs. Blender and Maya are both fine and I would be comfortable in either but, ugh! So hard to get excited about them for some reason. Max... I dunno I have an irrational dislike for it that I’ve had since like 2003 even though I’ve hardly used it. C4D seems interesting but I’m not planning on dropping that kind of dough on a product I don’t know when blender is there. Modo seems almost too much like lightwave. If I have to switch main apps I want to really switch.

If lightwave NEXT doesn’t come out soon I think I will spend some time with Houdini indie. lw 2015 will serve me well for what it still does for a good while, and might as well aquaint myself with the gold standard for procedural workflows. If and when lw Next comes out I will see where I am then and whether it seems like a good value.

CaptainMarlowe
11-24-2017, 02:22 PM
Plenty, depending on your specific platform and needs. Strata3D is still around, as is Shade3D. On Mac, there's an awesome little "one-man" app called Cheetah3D which is surprisingly capable. There are others as well. Which to consider depends entirely on your needs.

In order to make this discussion more useful than a simple recitation of available pkgs, will you please provide some (prioritized) sense of your requirements?

Forgot about cheetah3d, which is indeed very capable. i have to give a try to V7, which is finally released.

TheLexx
11-24-2017, 02:26 PM
The other thing is that if LW were to genuinely go, and it seems Paul values the "freedom of the road" licensing model as many here do, then it might be time to pause and also ask where the operating systems are heading as well as the software, so not just Blender but Blender on Linux might be worth investigating. Headus UVLayout, Substance, Gimp, Modo and Octane have Linux versions (I believe Modo 10 or earlier is effectively the same licence as Lightwave). There must surely be others. I'm thinking of more the one-man-studio thing, so a proper studio would probably have much wider requirements.

hrgiger
11-24-2017, 02:33 PM
Modo seems almost too much like lightwave. If I have to switch main apps I want to really switch.

.

Criticisms of both apps aside, I've seen this statement a few times from different people. Besides having the developers in common, they are really not that much alike.

hypersuperduper
11-24-2017, 02:57 PM
Criticisms of both apps aside, I've seen this statement a few times from different people. Besides having the developers in common, they are really not that much alike.

Maybe. I have never used Modo so I am basing my opinion on things I have heard. But ultimately If Lw becomes untenable for me as a main app and I don’t go with the practical alternatives (Blender or Maya) I want to learn something totally different and exciting and Modo seems far less different and exciting to me than Houdini.

Thomas Helzle
11-24-2017, 03:25 PM
Houdini all the way down for me, in combination with Redshift.
Awesome tools, can do a lot and jobs are good.
I can relate to the company and the people, support is great, daily builds, fantastic development speed ATM
Community is also breathtakingly capable.

XSI doesn't start here anymore reliably, it was still my poly-modelling tool of choice when it worked.
A dose of Blender every now and then. I don't like the GUI and the workflow, but some of it's tools are really good.
Some Allegorithmic, but not that much.
Lightwave I hardly ever start anymore, just come here every now and then for sentimental reasons and since the forum often has interesting links... :-)
Rhino for NURBS design and because Thea is so well integrated, but Thea got bought out and stagnates for a long time, so this may be another dead end.
Moment of Inspiration sometimes too.
C4D was my first serious tool when it came out for PC 1997, but nowadays it's totally overpriced, especially if you count in all the plugins you need. And somehow I still find it lame - I went for Lightwave in 1999 from it, later XSI... :-)
Modo - not for me.
No Autodesk for me either.

Cheers,

Tom

hrgiger
11-24-2017, 03:29 PM
Well Houdini is probably more different than anything else you would use. But then I don't think from what I've learned with Houdini so far that I would ever consider it a 'home' app as its not really a generalists tool like LW, Modo or Blender. Unless you're specializing in VFX or creating your own custom tool solutions, I wouldn't compare Houdini to any of the aforementioned apps and certainly wouldn't consider it as a replacement to any of them (again if you're any type of generalist).

Thomas Helzle
11-24-2017, 03:38 PM
I wouldn't call Houdini a "home" tool either, but as for what it can do (if your brain agrees with how it ticks), there really isn't much it can't. No plugins needed either, other than maybe a GPU renderer since Mantra is really slow.
Since I'm not really into FX I actually use the Core version, which fit's my "generalist with a generative/procedural spin" kind of work rather well.

YMMV of course ;-)

Cheers,

Tom

hypersuperduper
11-24-2017, 03:39 PM
Well Houdini is probably more different than anything else you would use. But then I don't think from what I've learned with Houdini so far that I would ever consider it a 'home' app as its not really a generalists tool like LW, Modo or Blender. Unless you're specializing in VFX or creating your own custom tool solutions, I wouldn't compare Houdini to any of the aforementioned apps and certainly wouldn't consider it as a replacement to any of them (again if you're any type of generalist).
Thats a lesson I will have to learn for myself I guess. I am after all a lightwave user, so iconoclasm is a part of who I am.

hrgiger
11-24-2017, 03:46 PM
I wouldn't call Houdini a "home" tool either, but as for what it can do (if your brain agrees with how it ticks), there really isn't much it can't. No plugins needed either, other than maybe a GPU renderer since Mantra is really slow.
Since I'm not really into FX I actually use the Core version, which fit's my "generalist with a spin" kind of work rather well.
YMMV of course ;-)

Cheers,

Tom

That's pretty much it Thomas. Houdini is amazing, no question, but its certainly not for everyone and it really has to click with you. I'm using the free version right now and don't know much about the core version (remember it being a few thousand or so) so I don't know how workflow differs any if at all from other versions? I'll have a look at it.

Thomas Helzle
11-24-2017, 04:11 PM
After the release of H 16, Core was reduced to 1500$ for some months, which I used to take the plunge to a non-Indie version. It's the same software, just without any of the simulation stuff, which I don't really need, as fun as it can be.
For most people, Indie will be perfect though and it's 200$ a year with very reasonable limitations and the full toolset of FX.

What I would argue against is, that it's only for SFX or obscure stuff, since I pretty much use it as my general 3D tool.
From Hair to Terrains to Rigging to Modelling to one of the best VDB toolsets to UVs to Game stuff (which they push a lot for a while now) to Compositing to Audio-reactive stuff to whatnot, it covers all the bases.
And as soon as you add VEX into the pot, the sky is the limit... :-)

I totally accept that it isn't for everybody, I just think it would be for more people than are actually aware of it, since it has that reputation.

Cheers,

Tom

aperezg
11-24-2017, 04:41 PM
Why Autodesk is the leader?
:confused::confused::confused:

It's because they bought their competition.:devil::devil::devil:
They took the best part of their competition and add the things to Maya, 3ds max and Mud box.

Sound like.... The big fish eat small fish.

Some day in the future, I dont know when. Everybody will works in Maya o 3D Max or maybe in a software that contain all these.

Only One 3D software in all the world.... Called "Autodesk 3D 2100".......:eek::eek::eek::eek:

hypersuperduper
11-24-2017, 05:03 PM
After the release of H 16, Core was reduced to 1500$ for some months, which I used to take the plunge to a non-Indie version. It's the same software, just without any of the simulation stuff, which I don't really need, as fun as it can be.
For most people, Indie will be perfect though and it's 200$ a year with very reasonable limitations and the full toolset of FX.

What I would argue against is, that it's only for SFX or obscure stuff, since I pretty much use it as my general 3D tool.
From Hair to Terrains to Rigging to Modelling to one of the best VDB toolsets to UVs to Game stuff (which they push a lot for a while now) to Compositing to Audio-reactive stuff to whatnot, it covers all the bases.
And as soon as you add VEX into the pot, the sky is the limit... :-)

I totally accept that it isn't for everybody, I just think it would be for more people than are actually aware of it, since it has that reputation.

Cheers,

Tom

This is kinda what I am thinking. Houdini seems to offer quite a bit more than effects and stuff, and i have spent enough time with lightwave's nodal systems to really get a taste for nodal workflows and would like to see what can be done when that is taken to the extreme.

Thomas Helzle
11-24-2017, 05:42 PM
This is kinda what I am thinking. Houdini seems to offer quite a bit more than effects and stuff, and i have spent enough time with lightwave's nodal systems to really get a taste for nodal workflows and would like to see what can be done when that is taken to the extreme.
I can really recommend that road. It's amazing what happens if everything works with everything.
While you still have different contexts for materials, geometry etc., everything can be referenced from everywhere.
You can load a texture in the compositor, animate it there and use that in a material or project it onto a geometry and convert to object color which in turn may drive polyextrusion depth...
Part of what makes it "hard" is that actually so many borders fall. The brain needs to adapt to that freedom.
If you just look at what you can do with a couple of nodes:
http://www.tokeru.com/cgwiki/index.php?title=Houdini
A couple of nodes, some lines of VEX code and you have C4D Mograph the way you like it to be and much more...

Sorry for my enthusiasm, but Houdini actually was life-changing for me.

Cheers,

Tom

Paul_Boland
11-24-2017, 09:11 PM
WOW!! I have to say, I didn't think this thread would last one page of posts, and here I am on page three with lots of insights and feedback on other 3D packages! Thanks very much for all the info, definitely a lot to mull over here.

As I said before, I'm hoping Lightwave Next is indeed on the way, but if not, where do I go...? I'm surprised to see so much positive responses for Blender. I'll definitely have to check it out. Yes, my finances are not the best hence subscription based software is a no-go for me, so Blender being free will definitely get a look.

As for what I do? Just a hobbyist, doing games, stills and animations really. As long as I can model. texture, building and light a scene and animate it, I'm happy.

Thanks again for all the input, wasn't expecting all this. Will definitely take a look around, but live in hope that LW3DG are going to surprise us (soon...!!).

gar26lw
11-24-2017, 09:29 PM
the lightwave forums are predominantly where light wave users come to find out what software to switch to as they dump their beloved software due to lack of any bug fixes, communication or info on updates.
it’s not if it dead. it’s dead. if you look you will see the only place left is youtube with a few vids
posted of techniques and help to those left using it. it’s totally ****** up and i have to say i am well pissed that lwg are quite happy to let the program that i loved using slide into oblivion.

Surrealist.
11-24-2017, 09:55 PM
WOW!! I have to say, I didn't think this thread would last one page of posts, and here I am on page three with lots of insights and feedback on other 3D packages! Thanks very much for all the info, definitely a lot to mull over here.

As I said before, I'm hoping Lightwave Next is indeed on the way, but if not, where do I go...? I'm surprised to see so much positive responses for Blender. I'll definitely have to check it out. Yes, my finances are not the best hence subscription based software is a no-go for me, so Blender being free will definitely get a look.

As for what I do? Just a hobbyist, doing games, stills and animations really. As long as I can model. texture, building and light a scene and animate it, I'm happy.

Thanks again for all the input, wasn't expecting all this. Will definitely take a look around, but live in hope that LW3DG are going to surprise us (soon...!!).

Well clearly in that case Blender is a no brainer. But if you are going to jump in that direction take your time. My tutorial series was created with that in mind. If you are methodical and thorough and master each small aspect there will be fruits to be had.

The good thing here is that not only does Blender have a great future, regardless of what happens with LightWave, your time will not be wasted. You will have a great companion to LightWave and no money invested. Save that cash for an upgrade when/if the dust settles.

erikals
11-24-2017, 11:12 PM
personally won't be leaving LightWave any time soon. Too much time invested, and too old to switch.

so, i'll keep on LightWavin' for quite some time...

https://i.imgur.com/xKAj3vM.gif

For many older generalists i'll assume LightWave is still of use.

safetyman
11-25-2017, 04:43 AM
FYI -- Not that I would ever use it, but you can get Hexagon for free... for all you hobbyists out there. Only 32-bits though.

https://www.daz3d.com/get_studio

hypersuperduper
11-25-2017, 04:46 AM
the lightwave forums are predominantly where light wave users come to find out what software to switch to as they dump their beloved software due to lack of any bug fixes, communication or info on updates.
it’s not if it dead. it’s dead. if you look you will see the only place left is youtube with a few vids
posted of techniques and help to those left using it. it’s totally ****** up and i have to say i am well pissed that lwg are quite happy to let the program that i loved using slide into oblivion.

I would like to think that at this point lw is only MOSTLY dead as per Miracle Max’s diagnosis in the Princess Bride.

gar26lw
11-25-2017, 05:02 AM
I would like to think that at this point lw is only MOSTLY dead as per Miracle Max’s diagnosis in the Princess Bride.

hmm, i’ve not seen that. have to look it up ;) did it work out ok in the end?

Surrealist.
11-25-2017, 05:07 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbE8E1ez97M

Thomas Helzle
11-25-2017, 06:36 AM
As for almost dead software: Silo also recently got a small update...

But I think if I would be without funds, I'd overall rather go Blender, since it's very capable, does everything in one app, has a very good GPU/CPU renderer by now and seems to move in interesting directions ATM, as their Embree viewport for 2.9 shows.
In some areas like that it's no longer the clumsy stepchild but starts to actually lead the industry. Seeing Cycles for C4D is also a funny development in that regard...

Cheers,

Tom

colkai
11-25-2017, 10:15 AM
I will be interested to see just how the combined CPU/GPU rendering works, can't quite wrap my head around that but excited as it will squeeze more rendering power from my little ole PC. :)

hrgiger
11-25-2017, 10:16 AM
I will be interested to see just how the combined CPU/GPU rendering works, can't quite wrap my head around that but excited as it will squeeze more rendering power from my little ole PC. :)

Well its either one or the other, its not rendering with both.

Thomas Helzle
11-25-2017, 10:43 AM
Well, Thea Render does the combined CPU/GPU thing for quite some while now and it's brilliant. In Theas case the CPU did actually add quite some speedup here (i7 6core @4.1 Ghz) to my two GPUs.
What I also loved about it was, that since it's the same render kernel, I could use all machines in the network no matter the GPU, and if GPU memory wasn't sufficient or the card too old, it would simply fall back on CPU and render away happily anyway.

I think in the long run this combination will become more common, since it solves some of the major problems with pure GPU rendering and makes much better use of system resources.

Cheers,

Tom

TheLexx
11-25-2017, 11:30 AM
Lightwave Next GPU rendering was mentioned in the Andrew Bishop Expo 2017, but the video was subsequently amended in some way so I can't remember what was originally said. It would be astonishing if LW Next had a native GPU renderer. Is that on the cards ?

c.1
11-25-2017, 11:34 AM
As a hobbyist I am now dipping my toes in the Zbrush waters with Zbrushcore (even though I own 3DCoat)
For $200 cdn I bought a Wacom Intuos 3D medium wireless tablet and it comes with a copy of ZBrushcore (this alone would be almost $200 cdn)
I am also looking forward to Blender 2.8 and there is a relatively new free program called Neobarok which looks interesting.
BTW I also remember the Truespace days........I sure hope LW doesn’t end up like that.

jasonwestmas
11-25-2017, 11:36 AM
My advice, don't think of one app as replacing another. If one doesn't do everything you need it to do, pick up another app, it doesn't mean you have to replace anything.

My philosophy as well. I've always been a multi-app. person especially since the chances of someone using lightwave on a sub-contract is slim. Personally I like to use one huge app that does 80% of the workload and then several smaller apps to fill in the niche gaps. Then there is the whole plugin thing to fill other gaps so I tend to consider those to be outsider applications since they aren't native and don't work as well some times. :D

UnCommonGrafx
11-25-2017, 01:34 PM
I own LW; won't be leaving it anytime as... I own it.

I will be learning more software. There is no replacement for what all I have invested.

I have learned, though, that lw has been a good foundation of learning for the other apps such that they haven't been too hard to learn. Nodes, in particular, are easily navigated based upon my lw experience.

Blender, for sure, will be learned; Maya will be learned for the classroom.

bobakabob
11-25-2017, 05:29 PM
I'm happy using Lightwave and looking forward to Next. However, it's no bad thing to develop skills in other software as others have said.

Lightwave as an all round app gives you transferable skills, so most experienced users really won't find it too difficult picking up Maya, as the fundamentals are so similar (the real challenge is justifying the staggering cost of subscription). There's even an old LW to Maya hot key pdf out there that is very useful. I learned Maya for work a few years ago and soon enjoyed working with it, though more in the animation realm, less so in modelling, despite a compact well designed suite of tools. As for rendering, Arnold gives aesthetically pleasing atmospheric PBR results way better than the awful Mental Ray. However I still love LW's immediacy, speed, and the creative freedom of nodal texturing.

Yes, Maya is a monumental piece of software but I still feel comfortable working in Lightwave, especially modelling (in combination with the precision of LW Cad and the expressive 3rd Powers tools).

Zbrush is especially great for organic character modelling and completely liberates you to do freeform sculpting - a welcome diversion from the precise but tedious conventional box or poly by poly modelling approach. The initial learning curve is steep though.

Blender has me completely stumped, granted afterhalf hearted attempts to get beyond the annoying floating box. However, I respect the views of artists who love it and I'm glad it exists as a challenge to the corporate status quo and a potential safety net to many jobbing freelancers.

Newtek should at least offer the punters greater reassurance Next is still being worked on as it's understandable for small studios and freelancers dependant on the app to feel jittery. Personally I really don't mind how long it takes for the release as long as it works. If I wasn't so immersed with ZB and Maya, I'd certainly be considering learning Blender as a backup and Houdini for VFX.

Surrealist.
11-26-2017, 12:57 AM
Well its either one or the other, its not rendering with both.

They are working on a branch that leverages both at the same time.

https://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?439146-2-8-Branch-update-with-Cycles-CPU-GPGPU-rendering-together

AnimeJoex
11-26-2017, 02:33 AM
Lightwave and Maya. Been learning the student version of Maya and have enjoyed it for the most part.

colkai
11-26-2017, 02:50 AM
Well its either one or the other, its not rendering with both.

According to what's being said, the inference is some sort of hybrid rendering, simply because, right now, we already have the option of either GPU or CPU rendering, so it would hardly warrant as news to say they were working on a methodology that already exists.

colkai
11-26-2017, 02:53 AM
Blender has me completely stumped, granted afterhalf hearted attempts to get beyond the annoying floating box. However, I respect the views of artists who love it and I'm glad it exists as a challenge to the corporate status quo and a potential safety net to many jobbing freelancers.

There's a few of us LW uers who moved to Blender, so jump on the Blender forums and ask away, or even PM me. I appreciate your initital confusion, been there, done that, once I stopped trying to make it LW, it fell into place.
Like I say, ask away, 2.79 is further away from 2.49 than LW9.6 is from LW4.0 :p (..and yes, I had version 4.0 on, gasp, 2 3.5 inch floppy disks ;) ).

Danner
11-26-2017, 03:09 AM
I have so much muscle memory using Lightwave that I can't really switch to anything where I'll be faster, at least with modeling, till I spend a ton of hours. But I am learning blender, as well as other complementary apps such as the Substance apps, and Unreal (as a render engine).

Surrealist.
11-26-2017, 03:57 AM
Blender has me completely stumped, granted afterhalf hearted attempts to get beyond the annoying floating box. However, I respect the views of artists who love it and I'm glad it exists as a challenge to the corporate status quo and a potential safety net to many jobbing freelancers.

The true and only honest reason I get behind Blender is because I hate to see people miss out.

Just like if someone was struggling with any software. I would say the same thing. Take a deep breath. Take your time. Start.

The same dedication as to any software is required.

I have never found a single software that was easy to learn.

I created tutorials to make this as easy as possible though.

But you have to be willing.

MichaelT
11-26-2017, 09:48 AM
If LW went away, two things would happen. 1. I would still use the version I have. 2. I already have C4D, Modo, Blender, Houdini & The full Autodesk suite, and a few less known ones. So I can use whatever tool that gets the job done. Which is what everyone should be doing in the first place :)

prometheus
11-26-2017, 09:57 AM
I am not leaving lightwave either, regardless if it was shut down or not, it will stay here on the machines, and used from time to time, currently I am more interesting in learning blender rather than continue to work with the nifty bullet implementation in lightwave..it is promising, but there have been so many crashes in lw 2015 that I simply was hoping for bugfixes or the next lightwave, and since bug fixing doesn´t seem to happen, and since the next lightwave version is uncertain when it arrives, I will probably continue to check out blender, though it is mostly some modeling tools, though it has built in fluids of both types, and a better hair tool it seems, mainly I like the sculpting tools and the skin modifier that Once I reach a certain level of skills in that, that may affect some personal projects much more, but I still got much to learn in blender as well as get comfortable with in UI and workflow.

It is most likely that I perform certain tasks in blender then send back to lightwave for rendering.

apart from blender and lightwave, I will check out houdini next, maybe modo again...not sure which ones of those I will focus on, probably houdini again..depends on if the modo demo is long enough to try out or not, while apprentice is unlimited in demo time, for all those modo versions..I have been busy at the times I was trying to evaluate, and then the demo time limit was ended, so that sort of keeps me off from evaluating it properly, houdini is different and a much better demo approach, but there I had some issues on my former computer that made the latest build not working, but I got a new machine now, so I will probably install apprentice very soon again.

bobakabob
11-26-2017, 10:53 AM
There's a few of us LW uers who moved to Blender, so jump on the Blender forums and ask away, or even PM me. I appreciate your initital confusion, been there, done that, once I stopped trying to make it LW, it fell into place.
Like I say, ask away, 2.79 is further away from 2.49 than LW9.6 is from LW4.0 :p (..and yes, I had version 4.0 on, gasp, 2 3.5 inch floppy disks ;) ).

Colkai and Richard, appreciate your kind offers of support, I'm going to dip into Blender modelling in a few weeks. I'm intrigued by the sculpting as well as conventional poly modelling tools. A test will be to compare Boolean modelling - in LW it's very powerful now with LWCad / 3rd Powers.

Jumping ahead

* How do you find rigging in Blender? Also is there an auto rigger? I love Genoma 2 in Lightwave, great for deadlines - and Maya is also nifty in this dept.
* How do you find CPU rendering & texturing (I'm not into GPU rendering so is it heading that way?)

Cheers!

bobakabob
11-26-2017, 10:56 AM
If LW went away, two things would happen. 1. I would still use the version I have. 2. I already have C4D, Modo, Blender, Houdini & The full Autodesk suite, and a few less known ones. So I can use whatever tool that gets the job done. Which is what everyone should be doing in the first place :)

Hmmm... well in an ideal world but to subscribe to that lot costs $$$$$$$s. Which is partly why so many here love Lightwave - it's bloody good value and fast to work in despite the free stuff.

prometheus
11-26-2017, 11:01 AM
Hmmm... well in an ideal world but to subscribe to that lot costs $$$$$$$s. Which is partly why so many here love Lightwave - it's bloody good value and fast to work in despite the free stuff.

As for me, still...navigating in the layout stage of lightwave and using lights, vpr and it´s fast preview renderer and also great final renderer, that I still haven´t seen either houdini, blender or modo being able to compete with..so yes, lightwave has it´s strength for sure...both in terms of ease of use, and having it as clean as possible, modo, houdini,blender just doesn´t do it the same way that I like with lightwave.

MichaelT
11-26-2017, 11:24 AM
Hmmm... well in an ideal world but to subscribe to that lot costs $$$$$$$s. Which is partly why so many here love Lightwave - it's bloody good value and fast to work in despite the free stuff.

There is no need to keep subscribing to permanent licenses, and I don't subscribe to autodesk any longer (which means I'll loose access to them) as I feel C4D covers most of what I do. But I digress.. I agree with you though. With that said.. my main point is still true though. You should use the tool that does the job. If that means you'll have to stick to whatever you can use.. so be it. As long as you don't lock yourself to one specific tool only.

bobakabob
11-26-2017, 12:46 PM
There is no need to keep subscribing to permanent licenses, and I don't subscribe to autodesk any longer (which means I'll loose access to them) as I feel C4D covers most of what I do. But I digress.. I agree with you though. With that said.. my main point is still true though. You should use the tool that does the job. If that means you'll have to stick to whatever you can use.. so be it. As long as you don't lock yourself to one specific tool only.

Yes, if the jobs pay enough and its cost effective, there are some great options out there.

Lightwave had a big part to play in democratising 3D and bringing it to street level without paying so much. I wouldn't have got so far without taking out an extra mortgage in the mid 90s. It's still very good value and isn't subscription based - a big plus.

rednova
11-26-2017, 12:52 PM
Hi:
I have lightwave 5 , 5.6 , and 9.6 installed in the hard drive.
I love lightwave very much, and i've been using it for many years for hobby.
Lightwave does everything I need and want, and I am very happy with it.
What i really want to do is to make a cgi animated movie, and lightwave
is enough for me to do that.
I am still learning lw, but i am very close to the goal, very close to learn
what I need.
I rather use only lightwave, but excel to the limit with it, and not
waste time with other apps.
Instead of learning other apps, I rather excel to the max with lightwave.
I would like to become the best lightwave artist, the best of all.
I would like to be loyal to newtek, and only use lightwave, but max out.
I am planning to keep using lightwave many more years, even if lw dies.
In many more years, I will easily hone my skills with lightwave.
I love lightwave !!!

Surrealist.
11-26-2017, 01:05 PM
Colkai and Richard, appreciate your kind offers of support, I'm going to dip into Blender modelling in a few weeks. I'm intrigued by the sculpting as well as conventional poly modelling tools. A test will be to compare Boolean modelling - in LW it's very powerful now with LWCad / 3rd Powers.

Jumping ahead

* How do you find rigging in Blender? Also is there an auto rigger? I love Genoma 2 in Lightwave, great for deadlines - and Maya is also nifty in this dept.
* How do you find CPU rendering & texturing (I'm not into GPU rendering so is it heading that way?)

Cheers!

Not sure if you can see it in my sig. But here is a link to a thread here:

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?154885-Blender-Basics

Of course you are going to have to cover a lot of basics before you get to rigging.

I have not gotten to rigging yet. But I will touch on it.

In the mean time. The newest version of Blender has the new Rigiy addon modified by pitchipoy studio. The original rigify system was designed by the guy that has done a lot of animating and rigging on Blender Foundation films. Probably most famously Big Buck Bunny. And the Rigify system was further modified and updated in Sintel.

A rig is an object which, after you add the addon, would show up with Shift A. From there it is very similar to Skellegons and Genoma.

The rigging process basically has to do with creating weight groups, and adding an Armature modifier to an object.

If you want to quickly get this set up and see it happen automatically, you can Shift A, add a single bone, and then Parent another object to the bone. It will ask you if you want to set up autowieghts and so on. But it will do the process automatically.

Here is a tutorial you can watch and see the rigging process on the new rig:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=774&v=-dwCXMc2V0U

Blender internal is CPU and on by default. But not very good. Cycles rendering is CPU also by default and a lot like Renderman or Arnold. Newest version has a denoiser function which helps speed up renders.

You will want to explore nodes. Proceedurals are more advanced in LightWave but with some node noodling you can do some cool things.

prometheus
11-26-2017, 01:23 PM
Not sure if you can see it in my sig. But here is a link to a thread here:

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?154885-Blender-Basics

Of course you are going to have to cover a lot of basics before you get to rigging.

I have not gotten to rigging yet. But I will touch on it.

In the mean time. The newest version of Blender has the new Rigiy addon modified by pitchipoy studio. The original rigify system was designed by the guy that has done a lot of animating and rigging on Blender Foundation films. Probably most famously Big Buck Bunny. And the Rigify system was further modified and updated in Sintel.

A rig is an object which, after you add the addon, would show up with Shift A. From there it is very similar to Skellegons and Genoma.

The rigging process basically has to do with creating weight groups, and adding an Armature modifier to an object.

If you want to quickly get this set up and see it happen automatically, you can Shift A, add a single bone, and then Parent another object to the bone. It will ask you if you want to set up autowieghts and so on. But it will do the process automatically.

Here is a tutorial you can watch and see the rigging process on the new rig:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=774&v=-dwCXMc2V0U

Blender internal is CPU and on by default. But not very good. Cycles rendering is CPU also by default and a lot like Renderman or Arnold. Newest version has a denoiser function which helps speed up renders.

You will want to explore nodes. Proceedurals are more advanced in LightWave but with some node noodling you can do some cool things.

I Just now prescribed on your channel, I got some upcoming tutes as well..just some minor intro to ANT landscape tool, I did a recording but it got screwed up somehow, the 2.79 version is much better than the 2.78...which I found not useful, a different story now.

I do wish they make it as a modifer as well..all parameters constantly alive within the modifier until you decide to apply it and start scultpting on it.

Daz studio I/O seem to suck with blender though, I prefer the fbx import for lightwave.
I also need to install the latest bastioni lab for characters in blender, though I do not like the silly age restriction...if that hasn´t changed that is.

bobakabob
11-26-2017, 01:24 PM
As for me, still...navigating in the layout stage of lightwave and using lights, vpr and it´s fast preview renderer and also great final renderer, that I still haven´t seen either houdini, blender or modo being able to compete with..so yes, lightwave has it´s strength for sure...both in terms of ease of use, and having it as clean as possible, modo, houdini,blender just doesn´t do it the same way that I like with lightwave.

Totally agree Michael. None of the other apps I use, including Maya for work have the speed and immediacy.

bobakabob
11-26-2017, 01:41 PM
@surrealist, many thanks for the detailed explanation. Third time lucky, I'm going to enjoy the learning experience this time, so looking to enhance production in Lightwave with it. Will definitely check out your tutorials.

prometheus
11-26-2017, 02:04 PM
Totally agree Michael. None of the other apps I use, including Maya for work have the speed and immediacy.

Not just that..there are many things in acessability and structure that I just swear on when using blender, especially in cycles when you are adding a background image to render as backdrop, finding your way to the world item, then changing to use nodes, then go to the color button, right click on the little property icon on that color button to acess (which newbie would really find its´way to that without help)

Much easier to find backdrop images and set it up in lightwave, and I did that on my own thinking and learning by navigating when I was a newbie in Lightwave, for blender I couldn´t do it without help on youtube really...things like that you know, stuff that are where they should be etc...mostly.

In principle the same with modo, you get lost in lists, and connections and naming on how to work with certain modules, that are all baked in to their scene/item/outliner or shading tree to connect the proper tool that I do not particulary fancy...with lightwave things like that seem so much easier, mostly...that said..there are areas that could be adressed also when it comes to structure of various modules, especially when bullet, flocking and instances arrived, that didn´t follow the principles of how lightwave mostly was structured before, but implemented a new kind of structure for properties that doesn´t sing the same tune as previous hardfx, or particlefx properties.

bobakabob
11-26-2017, 03:19 PM
Agreed, I clearly remember learning LW mid 90s and it was mostly so logical and a pleasure to use though there were of course plenty quirks, like rendering and camera controls being separate. I used Dan Ablan's excellent New Riders books back then. I've tried Modo but just can't get on with the interface and its lists as you say. I couldn't believe the vertical text tabs first time I used it... Are they still there? The forum complaints about texturing in the shader tree have really put me off (as texturing with nodes is so fast in LW) and I'm not convinced the character animation controls are useable. So after LW, Zbrush and Maya, I'm more keen to check out Blender.

hrgiger
11-26-2017, 04:48 PM
Well once you see a lot of the things you can do in Modo that you can't do in LightWave... there are always tradeoffs with most apps. And Modeler in comparison to modeling in Modo is absolute stone age. I mean, after all, NT hasn't barely touched it since Allen, Stuart, Brad and team left back during LightWave 7.
As far as the shader tree goes and forum complaints, no less than we've seen from fiberfx which is absolute garbage or from IKB for that matter which while has its uses, is certainly not been a widely adopted tool among LW users. The key difference being is that the shader tree is a functional aspect of Modo that offers a lot of flexibility in shading vs your standard node based per material texturing. I'd say a lot of people initially have an adverse reaction to the shader tree until they see the flexibility in shading that it offers over other methods.
The UI is also a lot more flexible and customizable than the LW interface and is in the process of being ported over to a full QT interface which will improve things even further.
There are good things about LightWave and Modo but I'd certainly go less off what you've 'heard' or what your impressions are until you've actually given either a fair trial and more than just poking around in a trial version and deciding it wasn't enough like LightWave to suit your tastes.

prometheus
11-26-2017, 06:44 PM
Well once you see a lot of the things you can do in Modo that you can't do in LightWave... there are always tradeoffs with most apps. And Modeler in comparison to modeling in Modo is absolute stone age. I mean, after all, NT hasn't barely touched it since Allen, Stuart, Brad and team left back during LightWave 7.
As far as the shader tree goes and forum complaints, no less than we've seen from fiberfx which is absolute garbage or from IKB for that matter which while has its uses, is certainly not been a widely adopted tool among LW users. The key difference being is that the shader tree is a functional aspect of Modo that offers a lot of flexibility in shading vs your standard node based per material texturing. I'd say a lot of people initially have an adverse reaction to the shader tree until they see the flexibility in shading that it offers over other methods.
The UI is also a lot more flexible and customizable than the LW interface and is in the process of being ported over to a full QT interface which will improve things even further.
There are good things about LightWave and Modo but I'd certainly go less off what you've 'heard' or what your impressions are until you've actually given either a fair trial and more than just poking around in a trial version and deciding it wasn't enough like LightWave to suit your tastes.

Fair trial or poking around?for a fair trial, it has to be a longer demo version, and anyway.. I have tried several demo versions..still hate the way to go with the shader tree in modo, and apart from that..it felt sluggish overall.
But granted..I should give it yet another go soon.

prometheus
11-26-2017, 06:46 PM
I couldn't believe the vertical text tabs first time I used it... Are they still there?.

Yes I think the vertical tabs unfortunately are there, and that innovative UI design was also adapted by blender unfortunately....I now have a neck bend leaning towards the left, but that´s okay..too much symmetry isn´t attractive on a face...so I am looking much better now :)
In daz I could at least change the way the tabs are described to be horisontal, as we do read things mostly.

samurai_x
11-26-2017, 10:39 PM
Sad sad sad. Another lightwave is dead thread.
I can't imagine anyone willing to invest time and effort, which is a bigger issue than money, to a company that doesn't show progress, or any inclination to correct its current situation to a userbase basically on life support.
Fanboys have defected to modo, blender. The typical generalist have moved on to maya, c4d, houdini.

Yet newtek stays silent thinking they will WOW its userbase when lightwave gets released. In what universe would a customer have any confidence with this kind of company. Never mind the software they're selling. The company is equally important. And they don't seem to comprehend that.

colkai
11-27-2017, 03:22 AM
Colkai and Richard, appreciate your kind offers of support, I'm going to dip into Blender modelling in a few weeks. I'm intrigued by the sculpting as well as conventional poly modelling tools. A test will be to compare Boolean modelling - in LW it's very powerful now with LWCad / 3rd Powers.

Boolean modelling with 'Bool Tool' is great, and interactive. You can keep the cutter object so if you like, could animate the boolean.
I also use the "Hard Ops" addon, (paid), really good. I've a few 'basics' videos on my yuotube channel too,
https://www.youtube.com/user/ColinTCS
Just nose around for Blender. Feel free to PM me, (I'm also on WhatsApp & Facebook), when the time comes and I will be happy to help where I can. :)

LWCAD is the main reason I stuck with LW for so long, it is a tool even now I would say, if you're sticking with LW and don't have it, buy it! I wish Viktor nothing but the best. :)

bobakabob
11-27-2017, 03:04 PM
Boolean modelling with 'Bool Tool' is great, and interactive. You can keep the cutter object so if you like, could animate the boolean.
I also use the "Hard Ops" addon, (paid), really good. I've a few 'basics' videos on my yuotube channel too,
https://www.youtube.com/user/ColinTCS
Just nose around for Blender. Feel free to PM me, (I'm also on WhatsApp & Facebook), when the time comes and I will be happy to help where I can. :)

LWCAD is the main reason I stuck with LW for so long, it is a tool even now I would say, if you're sticking with LW and don't have it, buy it! I wish Viktor nothing but the best. :)

Modeler combined with LWCad is very powerful, and combined with 3rd Powers tools and Zbrush there's really nothing holding a user back except imagination and skill.

Nevertheless it will be great to explore Blender's potential so thanks for the encouragement, Colkai and Richard I'll contact you if I run into problems. Which are inevitable :-)

I'm in the middle of exploring the parameters of Arnold renderer in Maya for work, and that's also an fascinating journey. However... Although it's cutting edge software, I'd still rather not be dependent on apps that are so massively expensive for jobbing freelancers. So Blender's rendering options are also intriguing.

@hrgiger, I appreciate you're a fan of Modo, it's all subjective and your perception is, after all, your reality. There are some great artists out there who really like it and produce awesome work. In my case, I'm aware of the power of the modelling tools, particularly as I was an early Groboto user before Modo bought into their advanced Boolean tech. So, yes of course Modo is good, and so it should be at that price point. But I can't see any point spending a small fortune buying into what is fundamentally a modelling / rendering app when I'm already happily using LW + LWCad + 3rd Powers tools combined with Zbrush. I'm yet to be convinced by Modo's character animation and texturing so it would be cool to see some examples. Contrary to a lot of misinformed snobbery out there, LW is a very capable character animation app, especially since Lino's input, rigging developments and Genoma 2. Not to mention the optional power of RHiggit. Of course LW doesn't match the power of Maya, but combined with superb renderering and nodal texturing, and despite its obvious quirks and deficiencies, LW still holds its own against some stiff competition once it's price point is taken into account. Which is surely why you still frequent this forum along with plenty of others who have spent literally decades here following Lightwave's progress.

hrgiger
11-27-2017, 04:09 PM
LW still holds its own against some stiff competition once it's price point is taken into account. Which is surely why you still frequent this forum along with plenty of others who have spent literally decades here following Lightwave's progress.

I follow LW's progress because I'm still a license holder, not because I feel LW is holding its own against the competition. The problem with LW being so cheap is that they cant employ but a small staff and they've had a modeling engineer position open for years now that they can't seem to fill. While you may feel its to your benefit that you're paying so little for LW, I only see it as a detriment that more R +D, more developers, and more resources in general including marketing isn't going to LightWave. Even with LWCAD and third powers, Modeling in Modeler still doesn't come close to the modeling toolset that Modo offers in terms of flexibility and modern workflows in modeling. You've got half supported edges, broken catmull clark implementation and third powers tools and LWCAD in LW are destructive operations and without the extensive range of falloffs, action centers, workplane, a UV toolset that makes LW look weak in comparison, interactivity of modeling tools not to mention a procedural modeling toolset that can be animated and is non destructive in Modo. And the only reason that LW is so cheap right now is because they've been running a sale now it seems for the last two years (even though it says limited time!) which seems kind of desperate. After LW Next is out the price is going up, Modeler will still be the same modeler and you'll have to add 3rd powers and LWCAD (and others) to make it competitive with what others are offering and now you're closer to Modo's price point. If you want examples of rendering in Modo, you only have to visit the Foundrys forum or facebook to see countless examples. And Rendering in Modo is more full featured and more capable than LW is if you're honestly comparing the two. Modo already offers PBR rendering, render passes, progressive rendering with saving and reloading of renders, rounded edge shader, modern baking workflows with support for Unreal tangent normal maps, Unreal and Unity shaders, Real time environment lighting and PBR texture display in the advanced viewport, geometry as light types (mesh lights), hair and fur primitives, tone mapping, micropoly displacement....

If you're doing any serious character animation, I wouldn't be using Modo or LW frankly. LW lacks any type of decent deformation system and has a garbage undo system and Modo currently lacks the performance.

And If cost were an issue, I would be using Blender but I'd rather pay for tools that work for me. Modo has paid for itself and maintaining it is just as inexpensive as LW is. In fact, after LW Next is out, LW will actually be more expensive to upgrade if you fall behind and don't upgrade each time. Currently upgrading Modo from a non-current version will be $595. Upgrading LW Next from a non-current version will be $795. That is, if they ever put out an update.

Chris S. (Fez)
11-27-2017, 04:40 PM
Currently upgrading Modo from a non-current version will be $595. Upgrading LW Next from a non-current version will be $795. That is, if they ever put out an update.

Hey Steve. I'm on 10. If I upgrade is it $399 still? Or did I miss the window?

bobakabob
11-27-2017, 04:45 PM
Each to their own, I'm glad Modo exists as an option out there and of course it has its strengths and talented professional users. However you misrepresent Modeler somewhat. Yes it has been neglected with development focus on Layout but it's still an extraordinarily powerful toolset, and supplemented by innovations in LWCad and 3rd Powers, there's very little it can't do. Of course there's added expense there, but I can't seem the point leaving it all behind... And neither apparently, do you, as you have a LW license!

Re animation, don't underestimate the capability of Genoma 2 and RHiggit which both give you which are highly useable on a par with Maya auto rigs. Personally I tend to animate in Maya as of course it's a specialised app, but again it's not a little snooty to suggest professionals can't do CA in Lightwave.

hrgiger
11-27-2017, 05:08 PM
Hey Steve. I'm on 10. If I upgrade is it $399 still? Or did I miss the window?

No its still 399. There's no cutoff date currently. If there is one, they'll announce it.

And Bob, I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying there are better solutions, ones that don't have the limitations LW or Modo do in that area. A rig is only one part of Character animation.

Over
11-27-2017, 06:05 PM
Well, I already have Modo and 3D Coat, and I´ve been using Max for a few years now.


Hey Steve. I'm on 10. If I upgrade is it $399 still? Or did I miss the window?

For anyone looking into learning another app beyond lightwave I really recommend Modo. It feels a lot like LW(or at least to me), with the added benefit of more features and periodic updates. They seem to have pulled a win with 11.2, at least my crashes stopped and I can sense a good performance increase in some parts. And those UV tools... OMG! hahaha :D

Chris S. (Fez)
11-27-2017, 06:33 PM
For anyone looking into learning another app beyond lightwave I really recommend Modo. It feels a lot like LW(or at least to me)

I like Modo but am faster in LW (primarily due to familiarity though I think 3rd powers and LW Cad allow super fast workflow with hot keys) and tend to switch over whenever **** needs to get done "today"....which is kinda everyday.

erikals
11-27-2017, 06:38 PM
...once LightWave was the King of Modeling.

...can we have that back please?

Nicolas Jordan
11-27-2017, 09:23 PM
I follow LW's progress because I'm still a license holder, not because I feel LW is holding its own against the competition. The problem with LW being so cheap is that they cant employ but a small staff and they've had a modeling engineer position open for years now that they can't seem to fill. While you may feel its to your benefit that you're paying so little for LW, I only see it as a detriment that more R +D, more developers, and more resources in general including marketing isn't going to LightWave. Even with LWCAD and third powers, Modeling in Modeler still doesn't come close to the modeling toolset that Modo offers in terms of flexibility and modern workflows in modeling. You've got half supported edges, broken catmull clark implementation and third powers tools and LWCAD in LW are destructive operations and without the extensive range of falloffs, action centers, workplane, a UV toolset that makes LW look weak in comparison, interactivity of modeling tools not to mention a procedural modeling toolset that can be animated and is non destructive in Modo. And the only reason that LW is so cheap right now is because they've been running a sale now it seems for the last two years (even though it says limited time!) which seems kind of desperate. After LW Next is out the price is going up, Modeler will still be the same modeler and you'll have to add 3rd powers and LWCAD (and others) to make it competitive with what others are offering and now you're closer to Modo's price point. If you want examples of rendering in Modo, you only have to visit the Foundrys forum or facebook to see countless examples. And Rendering in Modo is more full featured and more capable than LW is if you're honestly comparing the two. Modo already offers PBR rendering, render passes, progressive rendering with saving and reloading of renders, rounded edge shader, modern baking workflows with support for Unreal tangent normal maps, Unreal and Unity shaders, Real time environment lighting and PBR texture display in the advanced viewport, geometry as light types (mesh lights), hair and fur primitives, tone mapping, micropoly displacement....

If you're doing any serious character animation, I wouldn't be using Modo or LW frankly. LW lacks any type of decent deformation system and has a garbage undo system and Modo currently lacks the performance.

And If cost were an issue, I would be using Blender but I'd rather pay for tools that work for me. Modo has paid for itself and maintaining it is just as inexpensive as LW is. In fact, after LW Next is out, LW will actually be more expensive to upgrade if you fall behind and don't upgrade each time. Currently upgrading Modo from a non-current version will be $595. Upgrading LW Next from a non-current version will be $795. That is, if they ever put out an update.

I have been starting to compare the pricing of Lightwave to Cinema 4D recently. Cinema 4D is expensive to purchase and upgrade but it seems to be a firm business model that works well for Maxon and has always worked well for them. I don't think they pack as much into every release as Lightwave does but they seem to release on a very consistent basis whatever is finished cooking in development every year. If Lightwave can hit a certain point that makes it more appealing to new users such as a unified Lightwave then maybe they can start charging a bit more again.

Over
11-27-2017, 09:41 PM
I like Modo but am faster in LW

I´m faster in LW too. As the thread is about what you will do after LW (if LW were dead) I can only think of Modo as a replacement.

probiner
11-28-2017, 01:45 AM
If I was starting today... Blender and Houdini.

hrgiger
11-28-2017, 02:03 AM
I have been starting to compare the pricing of Lightwave to Cinema 4D recently. Cinema 4D is expensive to purchase and upgrade but it seems to be a firm business model that works well for Maxon and has always worked well for them. I don't think they pack as much into every release as Lightwave does but they seem to release on a very consistent basis whatever is finished cooking in development every year. If Lightwave can hit a certain point that makes it more appealing to new users such as a unified Lightwave then maybe they can start charging a bit more again.

Well Nicholas, if I needed a generalist app, I would probably go with C4D. But my needs cater more to asset creation so Modo suits me better. As far as LightWave goes, I honestly don't think we will ever see a unified LightWave. But I need to see some actual progress from LW3DG, not hear more words from them which seem empty to me at this point.

JohnMarchant
11-28-2017, 03:49 AM
If I was starting today... Blender and Houdini.

Agreed.

mav3rick
11-28-2017, 05:31 AM
Yet newtek stays silent thinking they will WOW its userbase when lightwave gets released. In what universe would a customer have any confidence with this kind of company. Never mind the software they're selling. The company is equally important. And they don't seem to comprehend that.


i agree... after all this absence... i dont think anything can WOW users anymore.. as we were treat like blind sheeps for God knows how much times... if i am little bit younger i would switch to other app with no look back... but definitely i lost confidence into Newtek will ever care about 3d department/development after this as they shown no serious interest developing lw. not to say they are completely not capable to any software development with all due respect to few people really worth in current development team.

Spinland
11-28-2017, 09:43 AM
Nowhere. Unless my licenses somehow stop working LW can’t ever “die” in my world.

When I have to interact with an established pipeline it’s Maya, and I have a current AD suite. When I’m working solo and only need to deliver footage it’s LW and probably always will be.

AnimeJoex
11-29-2017, 10:59 AM
If Lightwave died and I continued having frustrating licensing issues, I'd move to Maya. Maya works on my main laptop but Lightwave doesn't. Fortunately I have older machines that Lightwave works on. Even though I really want to get a newer, more powerful laptop next year for productivity purposes, I'm actually a little terrified at the prospect of finding out that Lightwave doesn't work on it since Lightwave is part of the reason I want to upgrade, lol.

Spinland
11-29-2017, 11:21 AM
If Lightwave died and I continued having frustrating licensing issues, I'd move to Maya. Maya works on my main laptop but Lightwave doesn't. Fortunately I have older machines that Lightwave works on. Even though I really want to get a newer, more powerful laptop next year for productivity purposes, I'm actually a little terrified at the prospect of finding out that Lightwave doesn't work on it since Lightwave is part of the reason I want to upgrade, lol.

FWIW I have a brand-new (bought last week) MacBook Pro and LW 2015.3 runs perfectly on it, no issues.

Rayek
11-29-2017, 11:58 AM
Even with LWCAD and third powers, Modeling in Modeler still doesn't come close to the modeling toolset that Modo offers in terms of flexibility and modern workflows in modeling. You've got half supported edges, broken catmull clark implementation and third powers tools and LWCAD in LW are destructive operations and without the extensive range of falloffs, action centers, workplane, a UV toolset that makes LW look weak in comparison, interactivity of modeling tools not to mention a procedural modeling toolset that can be animated and is non destructive in Modo. [...] Modo already offers PBR rendering, render passes, progressive rendering with saving and reloading of renders, rounded edge shader, modern baking workflows with support for Unreal tangent normal maps, Unreal and Unity shaders, Real time environment lighting and PBR texture display in the advanced viewport, geometry as light types (mesh lights), hair and fur primitives, tone mapping, micropoly displacement....

If you're doing any serious character animation, I wouldn't be using Modo or LW frankly. LW lacks any type of decent deformation system and has a garbage undo system and Modo currently lacks the performance.


All true, but let's not forget Modo still has some weird modeling inconsistencies and bugs of its own (as does any 3d app).

For example the bevel tool really needs an update. It is unfortunate that a basic tool doesn't work as expected while all other major 3d apps do work.
See this thread: https://community.foundry.com/discuss/topic/136622/bevel-co-planer-edges-11-2-clean-bevel

Interestingly enough the results in Lightwave and Modo seem very alike, leading me to think the developers re-used a similar code approach based on their experience with Lightwave development. The same was true for the abysmal text tools in Modo (which thankfully got a much needed update a while ago) - those old text tools were nigh-on identical to the equivalent in Modeler.

hrgiger
11-29-2017, 12:22 PM
All true, but let's not forget Modo still has some weird modeling inconsistencies and bugs of its own (as does any 3d app).

For example the bevel tool really needs an update. It is unfortunate that a basic tool doesn't work as expected while all other major 3d apps do work.
See this thread: https://community.foundry.com/discuss/topic/136622/bevel-co-planer-edges-11-2-clean-bevel

Interestingly enough the results in Lightwave and Modo seem very alike, leading me to think the developers re-used a similar code approach based on their experience with Lightwave development. The same was true for the abysmal text tools in Modo (which thankfully got a much needed update a while ago) - those old text tools were nigh-on identical to the equivalent in Modeler.

The bevel tool was updated in 11.2 but is not without issues. That said, a lot of issues that were not handled well before by the tool are now solved. Andy Brown, the new QA person on development has already compiled a list with all of the bevel issues in both standard and the procedural tool to be addressed in the 12 cycle.

And not even sure how you can compare the bevel tools in LightWave and Modo, they're not even remotely similar as bevel in LightWave is merely a polygonal inset and shift tool while the bevel tools in Modo work on points, polygons and edges with rounding, mitering and work on group polygons with the ability to use profile shapes.

Rayek
11-29-2017, 12:29 PM
Yes, profile shapes are very nice to have. Wish Blender had those in the regular bevel tools, outside the curve option. C4D has them as well.

hrgiger
11-29-2017, 12:31 PM
But yes, Modo doesn't seem to like those triangles on the edges. Hopefully they will address that next cycle.

Rayek
11-29-2017, 12:38 PM
But yes, Modo doesn't seem to like those triangles on the edges. Hopefully they will address that next cycle.

At least Modo gets timely & nice updates, and bugs are squashed. Just like any other major 3d app, excepting Lightwave Modeler of course.

prometheus
11-29-2017, 01:30 PM
Engraver and Profiler in lw cad is something that modo has built in I think, at least profiles (not sure about engraver) things like that I really would like to see natively though, I wouldn´t be surprised if blender adds it soon.

Rayek
11-29-2017, 01:37 PM
I hope so - so far no-one seems to be interested in adding that feature. Perhaps I should make a request on IRC.

Hail
11-30-2017, 06:28 AM
Already made the jump to C4D and it has been great so far. Also took modo for a spin many times and was massively disappointed. Modeling tools were great and so was the renderer but other departments were very lacking or half baked to say the least. I mean, try doing motion graphics, vfx or even a character animation project in modo and you would find yourself cursing a lot more than you'd in lightwave.
Lightwave has always been and would probably continue to be more versatile than modo.
Imo modo is just a glorified modeler with a hefty price tag. Houdini, C4D and maybe blender is what I'd be looking at if I were out shopping for a lightwave replacement today.

jwiede
11-30-2017, 10:39 AM
If you're doing any serious character animation, I wouldn't be using Modo or LW frankly. LW lacks any type of decent deformation system and has a garbage undo system and Modo currently lacks the performance.

Most Pro animators these days refuse to consider 3D pkgs that lack full/proper (arbitrarily tracked, mixable) NLA anyway.

hrgiger
11-30-2017, 11:25 AM
Most Pro animators these days refuse to consider 3D pkgs that lack full/proper mixable NLA anyway.

I wouldnt be surprised to see that in Modo 12. Mark Brown who made motion mixer for LW is working on animation features for Modo 12. We just have to hope its better than motion mixer ;).

erikals
11-30-2017, 01:03 PM
LW lacks any type of decent deformation system
does it?


Most Pro animators these days refuse to consider 3D pkgs that lack full/proper (arbitrarily tracked, mixable) NLA anyway.
there are some ok NLA options in LightWave. for generalists it should be sort of ok.
NLA in Maya used to be bug city, so i feel it was a bit hyped. (from what i recall)

though yes, wish LW was better at this.

bobakabob
11-30-2017, 01:47 PM
@jwiede and hrgiger
I use Maya for CA at work and indeed, it's very powerful. So it should be at its price point...
Advantages include fast rigging tech with auto weights, interactive weight painting, powerful graph editor enabling sophisticated editing. Deformations are smooth and responsive and you can even edit lighter rigs and small scenes in the GE whilst animations are playing realtime. File sizes of scenes can be kept low by referencing in rigs and objects - a more sophisticated variation of the Lightwave scene file system.

That said, it's remarkable what you CAN do in Lightwave for CA. A recent example is Lino's homage to Japanese animation. You'd need phenomenal skill to do that in Maya. And when Lightwave's price point is considered, it's unfair to talk such a good value accessible tool down and misrepresent it's capabilities.

Advantages: Genoma (far more powerful than skeletons ever were) and RHiggit provide sophisticated Maya style rigs. It can now literally take a few minutes to rig a character. Yes the undo system is far from great (I'm being diplomatic and still don't get its erratic "one undo allowed" behaviour in the graph editor) but crucially you can undo CA controller movement and object positioning in Layout allowing for experimentation and mistakes. Otherwise it really WOULD be unusable! No excuses, but it's also surprising how quickly you adapt using incremental save, creating small LWS files (yes this really does need work!). Deformations are pretty good overall - any doubters should check Rebel Hill's rig testing e.g Hulk rig and sophisticated shoulder deformations. You can get away with minimal weights using hold bones unlike just about any other app. Also you can now paint weights directly in Layout using the outstanding 3rd Powers tools (no hype here, they are creative and dependable).

There's a lot of talk about "non linear" advantages to other apps but in practice it can be at times no less time consuming animating in Maya. OK you can separate rigs and key frames and referencing enables some adjustments to meshes eg surfacing, uvs etc. However this does not allow editing the referenced mesh - otherwise expect explosions of polys as vertex points alternate values unpredictably. Have you ever tried swapping characters on and off rigs in Maya? It really is not so simple and involves tediously copying and pasting weights which only work within certain parameters. In Lightwave it's a cinch as Rob Powers demonstrated in a presentation a while back and something in my view we really take for granted. If anyone has more insight into Maya's shortcomings here I'd be glad to be corrected.

One update I'd love to see implemented in Lightwave are a variation on Maya's auto tangents which have a wonderful snappy elastic quality in the graph editor. They are easily edited and maintain beautiful consistent arcs. They would be a vast improvement on the noodly splines we're contending with in LW. They're useable and ok, but surely this would be a small but hugely helpful update. Please Lino, it would be an awesome addition to LW and make a huge difference.

erikals
11-30-2017, 01:51 PM
also add TAFA to LightWave and it will kick at CA Lipsync!
not sure Maya can beat that one, without tons of configuration. (?)

Spinland
11-30-2017, 01:55 PM
sage words...

This. I'm no PIXAR but most of my non-VFX work these days is CA. I have Maya but whenever possible I keep turning to LW for my stuff. It just works, it's bang-on reliable once you know its quirks, and for me it's like wearing a bespoke suit. Why would I want to learn a different workflow when I'm efficient and productive using the one I have decades of experience using? Some of the most amazing sculptures in human history were accomplished with hammers and chisels. ;)

- - - Updated - - -



also add TAFA to LightWave and it will kick at CA Lipsync!
not sure Maya can beat that one, without tons of configuration. (?)


This, too. There are a couple of reasons I have a mini PC unit on my desk, and running TAFA is one of them. :jam:

hypersuperduper
11-30-2017, 02:29 PM
I wouldnt be surprised to see that in Modo 12. Mark Brown who made motion mixer for LW is working on animation features for Modo 12. We just have to hope its better than motion mixer ;).

I don’t mind motion mixer that much. I use it quite a lot because it’s all there is in lw. It’s too easy to mess it up, and it can require some janky setup in some cases, but it works well enough if you avoid the pitfalls...which sort of describes animating in lw In general

bobakabob
11-30-2017, 02:40 PM
This. I'm no PIXAR but most of my non-VFX work these days is CA. I have Maya but whenever possible I keep turning to LW for my stuff. It just works, it's bang-on reliable once you know its quirks, and for me it's like wearing a bespoke suit. Why would I want to learn a different workflow when I'm efficient and productive using the one I have decades of experience using? Some of the most amazing sculptures in human history were accomplished with hammers and chisels. ;)

- - - Updated - - -




This, too. There are a couple of reasons I have a mini PC unit on my desk, and running TAFA is one of them. :jam:

I'm no Pixar prodigy either though I do a lot of CA and know both LW and Maya well enough to understand their strengths and weaknesses. Larry Schultz was right about being to able animate quickly in Lightwave, and it's particularly great for smaller productions and freelance work. LW has paid for itself several times over in my case so it's unfortunate to see such misrepresentation of its capabilities. Sure we all want progress but it's counterproductive constantly talking LW down whilst talking up other apps with barely a mention of the inconvenient reality of cost. It's cool to discuss other apps and make comparisons but I don't get the constant slagging off of the underdog of 3D in its own forum. Had I done my freelance stuff in Maya I would have been a fair bit poorer. LW also gave me opportunities professionally and transferable skills enabling work in other apps. I'm really glad Modo exists and I might give it more attention someday but it really doesn't suit everyone. Likewise with LW, but we're lucky to have it and there are many here who would miss it if it disappeared.

Spinland
11-30-2017, 02:47 PM
Yes, and yes again. Sometimes I also feel a few folks here are missing the apples vs oranges thing. LW was part of the tool set that freed me to quit my day job to do this work full time and, for its niche, it rocks even right now, forget "LW Next." I'm not interested in what "most animators" want (I'd like to see the data behind that sort of estimation), I care about what guys like me want, need, and use.

I don't interact here as often as I used to, and I suspect many like me feel the same way. Too much belly-aching, misrepresenting perceptions to fit personal agendas, or whatever else happens that isn't a positive contribution to doing our best work using the software this forum is about.

I mean, really? What's the point?

erikals
11-30-2017, 04:02 PM
for its niche, it rocks even right now
yes, however it used to be a Modeler front-runner as well. Those days are gone. Way gone.
and it fell way behind in other areas.
...add Next to that literally no "new" information on LW Next.

one can't blame LightWave users for getting a bit tired.

for the ones that are affected less by the fall (that'd be you Spinland, and partly me) it's less of a worry.


however, in not too long, there won't be many complainers left on this forum anyway.

heck, today i can count the LightWave content/video contributors on this forum on One hand. and that includes me.

something is wrong Spinland. Very wrong. and no, hint, it has nothing to do with the whining users.

Megalodon2.0
11-30-2017, 04:08 PM
also add TAFA to LightWave and it will kick at CA Lipsync!
not sure Maya can beat that one, without tons of configuration. (?)

Absolutely!

For me... TAFA made lipsyncing FUN!

erikals
11-30-2017, 04:27 PM
anyway, if there aren't any news by 2018 i'll try to shut myself up anyway, as i wouldn't really see any integrity in NewTek's commitment.

we'll see.

Spinland
11-30-2017, 05:21 PM
one can't blame LightWave users for getting a bit tired.


I get it, erik. I do. I wish there were more information coming from them, I'd love to have a new version with fancy new features to experiment with and integrate into my workflow...I wish for a lot of stuff I don't have.

I still don't have any of that stuff, for all my wishing. The stuff that does change is what I take targeted action towards that has a chance of accomplishing something.

What I don't get is the point of the endless go-round, every thread that touches on the frustration erupts into more of the same...nothing. It won't chivvy LW3DG into doing anything they aren't already doing, it won't produce any useful changes in anyone's tool set or workflow, and I have to wonder: at what point does it stop making the angry folks feel better to vent? Isn't there some limit to how many thousands of complaints are left in the well?

Perhaps not, but from my perspective you have your say then shut up and move on. If that means moving away from LW, so be it. Just enough with the endless round and round.

That's what frustrates me, not LW3D, and just like carping at them my griping at the gripers will accomplish nothing, so there you go. Hoist by my own petard. ;D

MichaelT
11-30-2017, 06:56 PM
I contacted them, and they did answer. So I'm not worried. And I won't say what they said, because the conversation was private. But again, I'm not worried. So take that for what you will. I do think you guys could spend your time being more productive, rather than spinning ideas that are only feeding themselves. Doom loops like that never ends well.

hrgiger
11-30-2017, 06:59 PM
I contacted them, and they did answer. So I'm not worried. And I won't say what they said, because the conversation was private. But again, I'm not worried. So take that for what you will.

Haha. We are working on it. Yes it will be released but we dont know when.

jeric_synergy
11-30-2017, 07:08 PM
anyway, if there aren't any news by 2018 i'll try to shut myself up anyway,
Why not "try" now?

erikals
11-30-2017, 07:38 PM
i'll set a date, and follow it. if any changes, i'll inform.

MichaelT
11-30-2017, 08:31 PM
Haha. We are working on it. Yes it will be released but we dont know when.

:) Maybe that's the answer you got. I didn't ask for a time, I was asking for something else.

gar26lw
11-30-2017, 11:41 PM
:) Maybe that's the answer you got. I didn't ask for a time, I was asking for something else.

a big sandwich? just don’t ask for soup. that’s the code word for
lw next.

MichaelT
12-01-2017, 04:27 AM
a big sandwich? just don’t ask for soup. that’s the code word for
lw next.

Oh, snap... so *that's* why! :)

Spinland
12-01-2017, 04:47 AM
Oh, snap... so *that's* why! :)

:beerchug:

robertoortiz
12-01-2017, 05:21 AM
My advice...
Invest in a company that
A) cares about the market, innovates and will be around a decade from now.

That means for me
HOUDINI
A lot of studios are switching their pipelines from Maya to Houdini for a reason.
And surprisingly enough for render engine that ALSO means
RENDERMAN
Their licensing agreement is reasonable, and their new real time rendering tech is incredible.

And I would add that ALL OF US should be also looking into GAME ENGINES. More and more I see them used for Digital Content creation.
Engines like UNREAL
Case in point, this is a DC area company that works for arch viz.
They are scary fast, I mean they measure projects in days not weeks and they can offer things that standard arch viz does not do, like instant VR,and on demand surface changes .
http://illustratemydesign.com/Architectural_illustrations/

Personally I feel Blender will eat Cinema 4d and then Modo alive.
Maya's scalp belongs to Houdini.

speaking of Autodesk
Autodesk Stock Tanks On Guidance, Plans For Restructuring
http://www.nasdaq.com/article/autodesk-stock-tumbles-on-guidance-plans-for-restructuring-cm883568

Spinland
12-01-2017, 05:54 AM
And I would add that ALL OF US should be also looking into GAME ENGINES. More and more I see them used for Digital Content creation.


I'll second that. As a "visualization engineer" for a well-known US defense contractor one of my more fun projects was developing an immersive, interactive 3D interface for controlling cyber warfare operations, using the Unity game engine. Think William Gibson cyberspace stuff, but real. I've also been approached by an architectural startup who wants to leverage VR for interactive walk-throughs of their designs. Not sure where that one will go, the principal seems to be a bit flighty, but the interest is out there. :jam:

jeric_synergy
12-01-2017, 09:52 AM
Unity is doing amazing real-time stuff. And the documentation is literally the best I've ever seen.