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Gordon
11-23-2017, 02:02 PM
I got this crazy idea of 16 UHD streams from "Choose the right setup for your Productions (https://www.newtek.com/blog/tips/tricaster-tc1-choose-the-right-setup-for-your-productions/)" where near the bottom of the page it gives examples of "For the Future - Fully IP Studio Configurations" giving three examples; the last being:



TriCaster TC1 16-Camera UHD IP Studio

16 NDI-enabled UHD cameras

TriCaster TC1 Notes: Seeing a theme here with the IP studios? Just add NDI-enabled cameras and sources to a TriCaster TC1, and shake.


We are going to wire 10G network cables and switches, BUT is it really possible to receive 8 x 4K UHD NDI video inputs and send 2 x 4K UHD outputs, plus a few 1080p streams for confidence monitors with these 1GB NICs on the TC1 and NC1 I/O?

For some dumb reason I thought that because the TC1 (https://www.newtek.com/tricaster/tc1/) was newer that it would have the same 10GB NIC connection that is on the older VME (https://www.newtek.com/ip-series/video-mix-engine/tech-specs/). However, that does NOT seem to be the case. The NDI technical brief (https://233b1d13b450eb6b33b4-ac2a33202ef9b63045cbb3afca178df8.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.c om//pdf/newtek-ndi-technical-brief.pdf) clearly indicates that you will get only three to five (3 - 6) streams, depending on 60p/30p and compressability, 4K UHD signals over NDI. The bottleneck will be at the 1GB NIC ports on the back of the TC1 (https://www.newtek.com/tricaster/tc1/tech-specs/) and NC1 (https://www.newtek.com/connect/nc1-io/tech-specs/).


Bandwidth needed for NDI video streams should be based on determination of the average
utilization required.
Example NDI video stream Approximate bandwidth required

1 x UHDp60 video stream 250 Mbps
1 x UHDp30 video stream 200 Mbps
1 x 1080p60 video stream 125 Mbps
1 x 1080i60 video stream 100 Mbps
1 x 720p60 video stream 90 Mbps
1 x SD video stream 20 Mbps
Table 1. Bandwidth Requirements. The approximate bandwidth required per NDI video stream for common video resolutions and frame rates. ... NDI traffic should not take up more than 75% of the bandwidth of any network link. (i.e.: 750 Mbps)

doctorsunshine
11-24-2017, 12:14 AM
Hi, here is a thread I started some time ago, with same questions :

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?154730-16-x-4K-sources-in-TC1-How

SBowie
11-24-2017, 07:27 AM
Hi, here is a thread I started some time ago, with same questions :

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?154730-16-x-4K-sources-in-TC1-HowWhich, you will have noticed, is not answered, sorry.

There’s an old gag about NewTek software that suggests it includes 'alien code', or ‘magic', as Kane puts it. What that really boils down to, I guess, is that NewTek products have often been seen as ahead of their time, and that the company don’t reveal how it works. One might assume this involves proprietary methods, and it's not all that unusual for IP not to be bandied about publicly.

My suggestion is, rather than asking ‘how’, put the claims to the test.

livepad
11-24-2017, 11:05 AM
I got this crazy idea of 16 UHD streams from "Choose the right setup for your Productions (https://www.newtek.com/blog/tips/tricaster-tc1-choose-the-right-setup-for-your-productions/)" where near the bottom of the page it gives examples of "For the Future - Fully IP Studio Configurations" giving three examples; the last being:



TriCaster TC1 16-Camera UHD IP Studio

16 NDI-enabled UHD cameras

TriCaster TC1 Notes: Seeing a theme here with the IP studios? Just add NDI-enabled cameras and sources to a TriCaster TC1, and shake.


We are going to wire 10G network cables and switches, BUT is it really possible to receive 8 x 4K UHD NDI video inputs and send 2 x 4K UHD outputs, plus a few 1080p streams for confidence monitors with these 1GB NICs on the TC1 and NC1 I/O?

For some dumb reason I thought that because the TC1 (https://www.newtek.com/tricaster/tc1/) was newer that it would have the same 10GB NIC connection that is on the older VME (https://www.newtek.com/ip-series/video-mix-engine/tech-specs/). However, that does NOT seem to be the case. The NDI technical brief (https://233b1d13b450eb6b33b4-ac2a33202ef9b63045cbb3afca178df8.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.c om//pdf/newtek-ndi-technical-brief.pdf) clearly indicates that you will get only three to five (3 - 6) streams, depending on 60p/30p and compressability, 4K UHD signals over NDI. The bottleneck will be at the 1GB NIC ports on the back of the TC1 (https://www.newtek.com/tricaster/tc1/tech-specs/) and NC1 (https://www.newtek.com/connect/nc1-io/tech-specs/).


Bandwidth needed for NDI video streams should be based on determination of the average
utilization required.
Example NDI video stream Approximate bandwidth required

1 x UHDp60 video stream 250 Mbps
1 x UHDp30 video stream 200 Mbps
1 x 1080p60 video stream 125 Mbps
1 x 1080i60 video stream 100 Mbps
1 x 720p60 video stream 90 Mbps
1 x SD video stream 20 Mbps
Table 1. Bandwidth Requirements. The approximate bandwidth required per NDI video stream for common video resolutions and frame rates. ... NDI traffic should not take up more than 75% of the bandwidth of any network link. (i.e.: 750 Mbps)

Gordon.

It's a perfectly valid question, and one which probably should be answered. There is public information on this if you look, so I am sure its appropriate to quote some of it here.

You can start with some clues from the publicly available "NDI SDK documentation.pdf":
- For each NDI Stream the receiver can select between "NDIlib_recv_bandwidth_highest" and "NDIlib_recv_bandwidth_lowest" - and you can switch between the 2. There is no quality difference between the 2 types, only scale.

- Also "Bandwidth will be distributed across multiple network adapters".

Far More Important Thinking :
Unlike traditional baseband video workflows, IP Video brings all kinds of innovative ways to rethink the equation. This is when the penny drops and you start to really appreciate quite what a revolution we are in. Its *not* really about carrying SDI over Ethernet. Its about ripping up the SDI rulebook and starting with a completely different set of rules.


Anyone looking at 'used bandwidth' on their network might come to the conclusion that NDI uses a variable data rate - according to NewTek is 'approximately' 100mBit/sec for HD - but that is for moderately 'busy' HD where there is a lot of 'hard to compress' detail. For more typical HD (or UHD) sources where the image detail is easier to compress the bandwidth can be significantly lower. As any image processing expert will tell you - for *any* modern codec, the required bandwidth differential between 'man talking to camera against plain background' and 'man in crowd of 1000 people swimming in rough water showered by confetti' is quite significant.

So, all in all, given a combination of 2 NICs, 2 bandwidth modes, and a variable data rate, its less surprising that boxes like the TC1 are capable of delivering on NewTek's claims.


Hope this helps. NewTek really have created some 'practical' magic with NDI but its actually underpinned by 'practical' reality.

SBowie
11-24-2017, 11:42 AM
Hope this helps. NewTek really have created some 'practical' magic with NDI but its actually underpinned by 'practical' reality.Of course, but no-one expects a chef to expose all the details of his 'secret sauce'. (Incidentally, many years ago in another context, I had a devout person ask me - on behalf of the company he worked for - for an explicit statement that no 'actual magic' was used in the product. So just in case anyone here is equally scrupulous, let me state that there is none used in NewTek products either ... as livepad suggests, of course, there are practical realities involved, most if not all of which are available in the public domain (which is not to say we're going to discuss them here, or confirm or deny the explanation suggested herein).

Gordon
11-25-2017, 02:44 PM
Thanks Steve and Livepad for your answers.

Steve, because I've known you for many years, I don't remember if we first met in person at Dealer training for "Draco/Macrosystems" or Newtek, I trust that if you say it's reasonable to expect that kind of performance then I'll believe you.

Livepad, thanks for the additional information that gives us more clues to support that it really can be done. If I remember correctly the bold text was a quote was from a video interview with Dr. Cross.

SBowie
11-25-2017, 02:58 PM
DraCo training, sometime in the 90's in Boulder, Gordon. Man, are you getting old? I know I am! ;)

livepad
11-25-2017, 03:01 PM
Thanks Steve and Livepad for your answers.
Livepad, thanks for the additional information that gives us more clues to support that it really can be done. If I remember correctly the bold text was a quote was from a video interview with Dr. Cross.

Well, I believe we may share the same point of view and optimism on this topic, but the words came straight from the heart. :)

Gordon
11-25-2017, 05:09 PM
DraCo training, sometime in the 90's in Boulder, Gordon. Man, are you getting old? I know I am! ;)

Well at least you remember! Of all the things I've lost over the years, I miss my mind the most. :)