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sadkkf
11-21-2017, 07:40 AM
Hi, all--

Just wondering if anyone knows what happened to the Substance Indie Pack. I was hoping to pick that up this week, but it looks like the packs are subscription only now.

Do I need to buy the annual subscription, wait 12 months, then pay the $49 fee to own it?

Any ideas?

TheLexx
11-21-2017, 08:10 AM
The combined pack which I recall at $299 appears gone, but there are still permanent licences available - Painter and Designer at $149 each and B2M at $99. My understanding is that it is still old school serial number, like Modo was before subscription model, but a definitive answer on this from users would be great. You get a years worth of upgrades when you buy.

Actually, reading the small print (https://www.allegorithmic.com/faq-substance) again, if you subscribe to the combined Indie package for 12 months consecutive, you can drop out and own it for a payment of $49 afterwards, which I think is on the same licencing model as before.

See if anything happens on Black Friday, or even Christmas if you can wait, then go for it.

sadkkf
11-21-2017, 08:21 AM
The combined pack which I recall at $299 appears gone, but there are still permanent licences available - Painter and Designer at $149 each and B2M at $99. My understanding is that it is still old school serial number, like Modo was before subscription model, but a definitive answer on this from users would be great. You get a years worth of upgrades when you buy.

Actually, reading the small print (https://www.allegorithmic.com/faq-substance) again, if you subscribe to the combined Indie package for 12 months consecutive, you can drop out and own it for a payment of $49 afterwards, which I think is on the same licencing model as before.

See if anything happens on Black Friday, or even Christmas if you can wait, then go for it.

Thanks for confirming this. It's my understanding as well the annual bundle is my best option now. I am hoping for a Black Friday deal, but it seems in years past they never offered it on their subscription bundles, in which case buying Painter and Designer separately may work if they still have discounts.

Life shouldn't be this complicated. ;)

Marander
11-21-2017, 08:32 AM
Yes, Substance still works perpetual with a license file. You can buy a maintenance subscription for $75 for a year for each application to receive free feature releases (or pay monthly).

hrgiger
11-21-2017, 11:06 AM
Its worth subscribing for the substance source material downloads.

sadkkf
11-21-2017, 11:36 AM
Its worth subscribing for the substance source material downloads.

Maybe, but I'm firmly in the camp of perpetual licensing.

And does anyone know if B2M is worth it? I've been using Crazy Bump happily for years.

Marander
11-21-2017, 12:08 PM
Maybe, but I'm firmly in the camp of perpetual licensing.

And does anyone know if B2M is worth it? I've been using Crazy Bump happily for years.

Crazy Bump seems to create better normal maps for me than B2M (but I haven't used it that much).

btw same here, I prefer and have the perpetual Substance license.

Too bad it doesn't include a certain amount of Source materials. When I upgraded I got 180 Source materials for free, but there are many new nice ones and there seems no possibility of purchasing those separately.

hrgiger
11-21-2017, 12:57 PM
Maybe, but I'm firmly in the camp of perpetual licensing.

.

No matter if you buy or subscribe, you're still getting a perpetual license.

sadkkf
11-21-2017, 04:02 PM
No matter if you buy or subscribe, you're still getting a perpetual license.

Oh, I see what you're saying. Going with the annual subscription instead of purchasing the individual licenses to get the monthly downloads. That does make sense. Are they worth $150US?

hrgiger
11-21-2017, 06:09 PM
Its rare that I don't go to Substance source at least once during a session to look for a material I don't have so for me its worth it. And now the source library is directly in the interface so you don't even have to leave the UI, you just open up the source browser from the UI, login if you're not already logged in and download whatever you want and it installs and is ready to use right away.

Surrealist.
11-21-2017, 08:54 PM
We are now in the process of switching to a Substance workflow. Leaving Quixel behind. Mostly Substance Painter though.

But with a Susnarance licence which used to be Substance Live where you get all three apps, the licencing has changed as far as paying in and being able to stop and start and retain your money toward perpetual. It is all explained on the site.

As far I know the benefits are the same as mentioned here.

I think it is the best software deal going right now.

And Substance Painter is a great app.

hrgiger
11-22-2017, 01:51 AM
ok so I guess they changed something but basically if you buy the subscription, its a monthly or annual payment. When you decide to cancel the subscription, if you want to keep a perpetual license, you just pay $49.

sadkkf
11-22-2017, 06:05 AM
ok so I guess they changed something but basically if you buy the subscription, its a monthly or annual payment. When you decide to cancel the subscription, if you want to keep a perpetual license, you just pay $49.

That works for me.

raymondtrace
11-22-2017, 07:17 AM
Keep in mind that you need to be subscribed for 12 straight months before you can change to a perpetual license.

https://www.allegorithmic.com/faq-substance

hrgiger
11-22-2017, 07:34 AM
Well if you wait until tomorrow night\friday you can get the subscription for 10 bucks a month instead of the 20 for 6 months for black friday

sadkkf
11-22-2017, 07:43 AM
Keep in mind that you need to be subscribed for 12 straight months before you can change to a perpetual license.

https://www.allegorithmic.com/faq-substance

I saw that too. Thanks. It's probably better that way if I can get 30 downloads/month.

- - - Updated - - -


Well if you wait until tomorrow night\friday you can get the subscription for 10 bucks a month instead of the 20 for 6 months for black friday

I saw the banner, but where do you see the pricing?

TheLexx
11-22-2017, 08:15 AM
Leaving Quixel behind.You seemed unable to resist inserting that detail.

Your posts have such a logical measured quality that might I ask the reason why Quixel was made to walk the plank ?

:)

Surrealist.
11-22-2017, 08:43 AM
I have always liked the Substance workflow better. I actually tried to switch over a few years ago to Substance Designer. Substance Painter was still fairly new. I found Substance Designer to be very difficult to get simple quick results and also ram intensive compared to Quixel. Because you were designing a substance not just doing texturing. And it seemed like a real chore to master the nodes so that they did not quickly sour out of control and eventually eat up all the RAM. I know there was an art to it. But it seemed like a lot of effort compared to Quxel. So I dropped it and over the years Quixel got a lot of improvement particularly in painting.

So now I had only familiarity with Quixel and I had trained my staff to use it. And it was cheap so I bought a few licenses. Now the issue was I did not have time to learn Substance Painter which was getting lots of improvements. I was starting to see the serious limitations of the Quxel workflow and some iteration bugs that were real time consuming. Reimporting mesh and maps never really worked right for example.

Also it just seemed overall there was much more flexibility and features in Painter I wanted to use.

Finally one of my artists bought his own copy of Painter and was experimenting on his own. I tried several times to encourage him to incorporate it at the studio. And we just did not have the time to implement it. Finally we had some down time and I got him to hunker down and work it out. I just told him to take his time. And we worked together to sort of some of his issues and then finally it clicked. We continued with the trial for a month and made sure.

So I asked him for his honest comparison between the two. And hands down, it was Painter. So now we are training and implementing it around the Studio. One guy who always hated texturing now loves it with Painter... lol

So as great as Quixel is at some things, I think the consensus is that Painter is just more sophisticated.

Anyways... so one bucket list item done... :)

I also really want to look into Mari. 3D Coat is also a bit on my radar.

PS: Also because I have in the past more or less defended Quixel. I guess I just wanted to mention it. But even when talking in Quixel's defense in the past I had always at the same time said I thought highly of Substance workflow and felt it was better. So maybe this is just putting the cap on that discussion.

gar26lw
11-22-2017, 09:03 AM
are you using substance painter with lw? any pain points?

Marander
11-22-2017, 10:16 AM
are you using substance painter with lw? any pain points?

I'm not, too tedious (no sbar support, needing to assign maps manually, no PBR workflow etc.)

There's another thread about this. Certainly not impossible to use but not efficient or user friendly.

Great use in apps that support Substances natively tough.

Surrealist.
11-22-2017, 10:17 AM
Well I have not yet. But the biggest pain point would be the same as using it with Quixel which I have quite a lot.

It is really just a matter of deciding which workflow you want to go with. And even though I prefer the PBR workflow not all of my clients use it. And in Lightwave I usually just go with a specular workflow. You can export maps from both Quixel and Substance for use in a specular workflow. In LightWave I usually try and use nodes (material) for metals. And then specular for everything else.

But there are special node set ups that have been created for PBR in LightWave. Do a search for it. ( as stated above)

But regardless, I find that you have to do tweaking of the node set up even in Cycles with the principled shader to get a look similar to the original PRB in Substance.

That is also true in Unreal. I am have fully learned Unity yet. But a client is switching over to Unity so I am going to have to sort that soon.

For me now, my preference is Cycles principled shader. I also like Renderman.

Would be nice to get a chance to check out the new LightWave's PBR rendering though.

Marander
11-22-2017, 10:42 AM
SP 2017.4

https://youtu.be/5piSS1JSp5Y

Marander
11-22-2017, 11:42 AM
And here the release announcement for 2017.4, some nice new features (Unreal 4 support, new materials, layering etc.)

https://www.allegorithmic.com/blog/substance-painter-introducing-layer-instances

OlaHaldor
11-23-2017, 12:16 AM
When I started working at a studio spring last year I was told texturing was to be done in Mari. I've never touched Mari, and the videos I saw were very daunting. The UI and workflow looks like the mind of a technician more than an artist. So I kindly asked; are we doing PBR? Good. Can I use Painter? They had never touched it, but the technical director encouraged me to try it with the workflow they had (Maya + Arnold).

It wasn't without errors, because the mesh has to be frozen at high subdiv level so it shows correctly in Painter, which meant heaps of problems to figure out: what happens to the UV and UV smoothing when the mesh is frozen?

We figured it out in the end, and now the entire studio use Painter and have basically abandoned Mari. Unless it's some major pita task in Painter that's hard to do. It's not often that happens.

We've done realistic textures, cartoony textures and stylistic textures. Painter is versatile! And it can work with UDIMs properly (still can't paint across two UDIMs yet though). To my knowledge, Quixel can't work with UDIMs unless you move the tiles back to 0-1 and give the content of each original tile a specific material. Which is an insane slow down in production. If it's 5-10 tiles, sure.. not that much of a problem. But when you have assets with tens of UDIMs, if not hundreds.. I'd rather not be that guy. :D

hrgiger
11-23-2017, 01:45 AM
We've done realistic textures, cartoony textures and stylistic textures. Painter is versatile! And it can work with UDIMs properly (still can't paint across two UDIMs yet though). To my knowledge, Quixel can't work with UDIMs unless you move the tiles back to 0-1 and give the content of each original tile a specific material. Which is an insane slow down in production. If it's 5-10 tiles, sure.. not that much of a problem. But when you have assets with tens of UDIMs, if not hundreds.. I'd rather not be that guy. :D

Yup I started working with UDIMs in Painter out of Modo and now with the new texture instancing in painter, its so good.

MichaelT
11-23-2017, 03:27 AM
Yelp... Black friday... so many things to pick up ;)