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MAUROCOR
11-10-2017, 09:54 AM
Hello, Newtek/Lightwave3D Group! It´s me again asking you about the release of LW Next?
In the last e-mail you answered me you told me this:

"Mauro if I could then it would be public knowledge.

If it were public knowledge, then it would be announced.

It's being worked on - it will be released at some point in the near future.

Thank you for your report.
--
LightWave 3D Group Support"

It was july 7th.

I didn´t hear a word about this since then.

Can you clarify what means "near feature" to you, please?

Thanks!

11-10-2017, 09:58 AM
This is the forum.
Why would you expect an answer here, of all places?

Just making the forums worthless for lw users...


They haven't answered in all this time; what's changed to make you think they will now?

Exclaim
11-10-2017, 10:14 AM
Hello, Newtek/Lightwave3D Group! It´s me again asking you about the release of LW Next?
In the last e-mail you answered me you told me this:

"Mauro if I could then it would be public knowledge.

If it were public knowledge, then it would be announced.

It's being worked on - it will be released at some point in the near future.

Thank you for your report.
--
LightWave 3D Group Support"

It was july 7th.

I didn´t hear a word about this since then.

Can you clarify what means "near feature" to you, please?

Thanks!
Acting out like this probably makes them want to stay quiet about everything.

erikals
11-10-2017, 10:22 AM
people are just tired of the never-ending silence, that's all. understandable.

but yeah, better to write them an email  [Again]


Acting out like this probably makes them want to stay quiet about everything.

would hardly make a difference.
however, might as well close this thread, and post the question in the "...Months - Still no Update" thread

hrgiger
11-10-2017, 10:35 AM
I've written them as well. They give me the same BS. We're working on it. I ask them if Rob is still there. They don't even acknowledge that question.

50one
11-10-2017, 10:42 AM
I'm sure there's someone out there anticipating the shitstorm that will happen when the word is finally out...wondering who's gonna take the beating this time. Rob's gone.

calilifestyle
11-10-2017, 10:44 AM
I'm sure there's someone out there anticipating the shitstorm that will happen when the word is finally out...wondering who's gonna take the beating this time. Rob's gone.

On linkedIn it says he is still at NT

meatycheesyboy
11-10-2017, 10:57 AM
"...if I could then it would be public knowledge. If it were public knowledge, then it would be announced..."


Maybe it's just not artfully written or maybe I'm overly sensitive today but this portion of the response from them reads as really rude to me. I have nothing to add beyond that, that part just stood out to me. Carry on.

MAUROCOR
11-10-2017, 11:38 AM
Well, I just don´t know where to ask anymore, sorry.
LW forum is not the right place, e-mail them doesn´t work too, asking directly to some of the LW3D Group guys is the same...
I am a customer, I just want to know. It is not a big deal.

Actually I think they don´t care about us anymore. No gallery updates, no more newletters, no blog updates too, not even a word from them... just silence...
Can you hear the crickets?

pmwhite
11-10-2017, 11:50 AM
Lets just be Patient, its better that Newtek release a good release a little later than a bad one early. It cant be easy updating such a complex application. I can understand your frustration, i am looking forward to the new improvements too, but I don't mind waiting for a good product.

11-10-2017, 11:55 AM
I feel your pain.

This feels like it is dead. Can you smell the composting body...

I don't think we are 'customers' anymore cuz they ain't got nothing to sell.

For me, when I saw that ACross had answered a question in the 3D area, it informed that the hierarchy that was is no longer, i.e., Rob probably isn't there anymore in substantial role anymore. Lw was being kicked about in the corporate halls of NewTek.

Them not answering is an answer, just one we'd rather not have: we got nothing. Whether there is a later or not is becoming irrelevant.

3dslider
11-10-2017, 12:06 PM
Yeah, they need more time to make such a good 3d software, I have several projects to work for Lightwave and other open source but nothing with Lightwave. From now I think Cycles for Lightwave can impact so much if it get out in near future, i am solo so i do good than bad as well. Recently i work Cycles for Modo but from doc is quite incomplete so it is hard to understand correctly... That i come back to Lightwave is more easy and their doc is more understable.

I do my best for it, maybe your frustation will be down when you try my Cycles for Lightwave when it gets out in 2017/2018 :)

Paul_Boland
11-10-2017, 12:07 PM
Well, I just don´t know where to ask anymore, sorry.
LW forum is not the right place, e-mail them doesn´t work too, asking directly to some of the LW3D Group guys is the same...
I am a customer, I just want to know. It is not a big deal.

I've actually thought about confronting them on the only public forum they seem to care about, their Facebook page. It's more public than these forums and I think if a thread like this one, in it's entirety was there on their Facebook page, we'd get a more direct update on the state of things.

But I do appreciate you posted this here, shows the lack of feedback and the duration of the silence that they have been selling the "near future release" quote for. Shame :(...

SBowie
11-10-2017, 12:26 PM
It's more public than these forums and I think if a thread like this one, in it's entirety was there on their Facebook page, we'd get a more direct update on the state of things.My (entirely personal) question is, would that really be "A Good Thing"?

I am inclined to think that - if it were possible to respond without causing some unknown problem or other - surely someone would have done so. Which leaves me wondering whether efforts to force a reply would really be helpful, or potentially harmful. Frankly, it seems unlikely to me that it would pry anything meaningful loose anyway, but if the goal is simply to shame them, it might be effective.

I'm not really trying to talk you into or out of anything, just thinking out loud ... carry on.

MAUROCOR
11-10-2017, 12:36 PM
My (entirely personal) question is, would that really be "A Good Thing"?




At this point involved in all this silence from them I don´t know what is "A Good Thing" anymore, really!

- - - Updated - - -


I've actually thought about confronting them on the only public forum they seem to care about, their Facebook page. It's more public than these forums and I think if a thread like this one, in it's entirety was there on their Facebook page, we'd get a more direct update on the state of things.

But I do appreciate you posted this here, shows the lack of feedback and the duration of the silence that they have been selling the "near future release" quote for. Shame :(...

Maybe you should try this!

Paul_Boland
11-10-2017, 12:42 PM
My (entirely personal) question is, would that really be "A Good Thing"?

I am inclined to think that - if it were possible to respond without causing some unknown problem or other - surely someone would have done so. Which leaves me wondering whether efforts to force a reply would really be helpful, or potentially harmful. Frankly, it seems unlikely to me that it would pry anything meaningful loose anyway, but if the goal is simply to shame them, it might be effective.

I'm not really trying to talk you into or out of anything, just thinking out loud ... carry on.

Thanks for the response. All I'm saying is, a big user base is here and we're getting ignored. Something is going on and the question is what? Would it really be an issue fro LW3DG to issue a statement and just tell us where things stand? I'm not asking for trade secrets or promises of cool new features, but the silence is insane and when you use a piece of software day in, day out, and the company behind it are silent, that's worrisome. People end up thinking the worst... Is Lightwave dead? Is it being sold off? What's happening? That's all I see people wanting to know? We all agree that we will wait for a great release, but just tell us what's going on in the background?

I've said this before in another thread and I'll say it again, unless Lightwave Next is truly awesome, then I see only the core users upgrading, no new users buying in, and the software slowly dying off. I've been through that before with Caligari's TrueSpace. While the move to Lightwave was hugely beneficial and I love Lightwave, the learning process was slow and crippled my creativity for a long time until I learned Lightwave enough. In essence, I was back on Square One. If Lightwave's demise is on the horizon and we (all the users) are going to be back on Square One again, then let us know!

But really and truly, I do hope that Lightwave Next is on the way and is going to be truly awesome!! But seriously, LW3DG, speak up and tell us, your users who love your software, what is going on?????

Norka
11-10-2017, 12:47 PM
On linkedIn it says he is still at NT

Probably says that on his MySpace page too....

SBowie
11-10-2017, 12:51 PM
Would it really be an issue fro LW3DG to issue a statement and just tell us where things stand?Surely the answer to that must be "Yes", don't you think - else it would have happened long since. This, of course, even if correct, does not remove the frustration everyone feels, which I certainly understand.

hrgiger
11-10-2017, 01:50 PM
Lets just be Patient,.

Really?


I'm not sure how much more patient I can be after 3 years of CORE, 20 years of waiting for modeling improvements, 3 years of waiting for LW next now.... but maybe if we just try being patient?

pinkmouse
11-10-2017, 02:03 PM
The fact that Newtek/LW3DG have hung out our long suffering mod Steve out to dry says everything you need to know about LWs future. He doesn't deserve this nonsense from them.

SBowie
11-10-2017, 02:23 PM
The fact that Newtek/LW3DG have hung out our long suffering mod Steve out to dry says everything you need to know about LWs future. He doesn't deserve this nonsense from them.Well, thanks for thinking of me, that's nice and all - but I'm quite happy here, NewTek could scarcely treat me better, and the user community is overwhelmingly understanding, so I'm good.

50one
11-10-2017, 02:56 PM
Yeah Steve, I do throw some poop from time to time but it nothing your direction, you are good guy.

SBowie
11-10-2017, 02:58 PM
Thanks, I'm just a guy ... if I can help, I will.

ELinder
11-10-2017, 04:55 PM
For me the whole situation has nothing to do with patience or loyalty. I feel misled by LWG into spending my money on the wrong product. Back in February I bought the current version upgrade because all the official publicly posted info and blogs said the new version was actively in development and I could expect more information, if not the release, on the next version relatively soon. I have had many versions of LW in the past but was getting back into graphics after a long absence, so I decided to stay with LW. Now I regret not putting that money toward someting with a clear future like Houdini. Knowing I'm not even going to be getting any bug fixes for knowingly long time broken things has left a bitter taste in my mouth in addition to the hole in my wallet.

gar26lw
11-10-2017, 05:08 PM
typical newtek. its a shame they make lw now. it really would be better if someone else developed it.
i think id prefer they sell it or open source it. so we get a release and bug fixes. sad

jwiede
11-10-2017, 05:11 PM
Knowing I'm not even going to be getting any bug fixes for knowingly long time broken things has left a bitter taste in my mouth in addition to the hole in my wallet.

And that's where it really gets "messy": LW3DG continues to sell the existing version product, without any sort of explicit statement to potential customers that there will be no further fixes/updates for that version. That's (arguably) tolerable for a brief period right before the new version, but doing so for years is a substantial problem.

samurai_x
11-10-2017, 08:02 PM
Lets just be Patient, its better that Newtek release a good release a little later than a bad one early.

But its bad business not to keep customer confidence. Sure the nt broadcast part is doing well but lightwave is surely bleeding cash after this long and in the negative.

Its like Softimage, dead dead dead. Went dark, released a super app. But it was too late a lot of people moved on.
Its like Fabric engine which is now dead. Fabric seemed to target a very specific group of people which is not always good. Poor documentation, marketing and exposure.

jwiede
11-10-2017, 08:05 PM
Lets just be Patient, its better that Newtek release a good release a little later than a bad one early. It cant be easy updating such a complex application. I can understand your frustration, i am looking forward to the new improvements too, but I don't mind waiting for a good product.

"...than a bad one early." ROFLMAO!

Trying to portray anything about this release as "early" is so inaccurate, it's hilarious!

Anyone still here, by definition, has already demonstrated exceptional patience with and tolerance for Newtek/LW3DG.

"Lets just be patient"... :twak: This turned into "abuse of customer patience" months ago.

jwiede
11-10-2017, 08:16 PM
typical newtek. its a shame they make lw now. it really would be better if someone else developed it.
i think id prefer they sell it or open source it. so we get a release and bug fixes. sad

There's negligible chance of it being released into open source (due to the many licensed sections present). Best to hope for a sale.

jperk
11-10-2017, 08:33 PM
LW is purely nostalgia lore for the old-timers. The evolution of LW came with Modo.

VermilionCat
11-10-2017, 08:38 PM
I assume LW3DG is the one who wants it to be released more than anyone. Some (yet unreliable) source from Facebook tells that the product is finished but the marketing division doesn't allow it to be released for... reasons unknown. What's the holdup... We are demanding just one simple explanation of the current status according to the rights as royal customers, Newtek... We are not the audience waiting for your entertainment show, we are the professionals making livings by using tools you're selling. Have some responsibilities.

samurai_x
11-10-2017, 08:49 PM
LW is purely nostalgia lore for the old-timers. The evolution of LW came with Modo.

Nah. Modo is still in the same level as lw. Good as a secondary app. As primary its not worth risking your career to focus on modo.

gar26lw
11-10-2017, 09:04 PM
There's negligible chance of it being released into open source (due to the many licensed sections present). Best to hope for a sale.

hey, i just picked up a couple
more of the 3rd powers tools. only one left before i own them all.

anyway, i noticed this in the about section.

“We don't want to just sit idly by and do nothing to prevent disaster.
So we would like to assist as Third-Party Developer.“

i guess that was written 2-3 yrs ago.


quite frankly, it’s dpont, wtools, 3rd powers and a few others that should be developing all of lw.
i’d love to see newtek just hand it to them with carte blanche.

i am noticing less updates or no updates to 3rd party. concerned even these guys are put off by lack of info and progress. i’d say so

fablefox
11-11-2017, 01:24 AM
For me the whole situation has nothing to do with patience or loyalty. I feel misled by LWG into spending my money on the wrong product. Back in February I bought the current version upgrade because all the official publicly posted info and blogs said the new version was actively in development and I could expect more information, if not the release, on the next version relatively soon. I have had many versions of LW in the past but was getting back into graphics after a long absence, so I decided to stay with LW. Now I regret not putting that money toward someting with a clear future like Houdini. Knowing I'm not even going to be getting any bug fixes for knowingly long time broken things has left a bitter taste in my mouth in addition to the hole in my wallet.

Welcome to the club. I dropped the cash because of CORE.

hypersuperduper
11-11-2017, 02:08 AM
If it is the marketing dept holding up the release, and corporate presumably imposing the gag order, it almost certainly means that some sort of sale or ownership change is happening or is in negotiation. Unless they plan to just sell lw to a competitor to be stripped for usable tech, a sale (or whatever it is) is probably good news because it likely means an influx of capital. If they were just going to release the new version and hope for the best they would likely have done so already, or at the very least would be updating their users on development status. If they were going to just kill it we probably would have heard that too, either through official channels or leaks from disgruntled employees anonymously breaking their NDAs. I am certainly curious what is going on because of the gag order. All the other outreach and dead periods like the blog and Lino’s renders with long periods of silence in between had all the hallmarks of a developer driven grassroots level marketing effort. Both in the high-quality of the information in them and in the amateurish lack of commitment. It was like a kickstarter pitch. What’s happening now is different, but might not be bad for the continuation of lightwave as a viable product. It MIGHT mean the end, but it may just as well mean that the people with the money (whoever they may wind up being) are involved and have decided that the product has potential and amateur-hour marketing just won’t cut it anymore.

THIBAULT
11-11-2017, 02:28 AM
If it is the marketing dept holding up the release, and corporate presumably imposing the gag order, it almost certainly means that some sort of sale or ownership change is happening or is in negotiation. Unless they plan to just sell lw to a competitor to be stripped for usable tech, a sale (or whatever it is) is probably good news because it likely means an influx of capital. If they were just going to release the new version and hope for the best they would likely have done so already, or at the very least would be updating their users on development status. If they were going to just kill it we probably would have heard that too, either through official channels or leaks from disgruntled employees anonymously breaking their NDAs. I am certainly curious what is going on because of the gag order. All the other outreach and dead periods like the blog and Lino’s renders with long periods of silence in between had all the hallmarks of a developer driven grassroots level marketing effort. Both in the high-quality of the information in them and in the amateurish lack of commitment. It was like a kickstarter pitch. What’s happening now is different, but might not be bad for the continuation of lightwave as a viable product. It MIGHT mean the end, but it may just as well mean that the people with the money (whoever they may wind up being) are involved and have decided that the product has potential and amateur-hour marketing just won’t cut it anymore.

Interesting !

Marander
11-11-2017, 02:29 AM
For me the whole situation has nothing to do with patience or loyalty. I feel misled by LWG into spending my money on the wrong product. Back in February I bought the current version upgrade because all the official publicly posted info and blogs said the new version was actively in development and I could expect more information, if not the release, on the next version relatively soon. I have had many versions of LW in the past but was getting back into graphics after a long absence, so I decided to stay with LW. Now I regret not putting that money toward someting with a clear future like Houdini. Knowing I'm not even going to be getting any bug fixes for knowingly long time broken things has left a bitter taste in my mouth in addition to the hole in my wallet.

This is exactly the point. We are lied to since more than two years when the new pricing scheme and the various fake discounts were introduced.

LW3DG lost all credibility.

http://www.cgchannel.com/2015/09/newtek-announces-new-lightwave-pricing/

"...However, you’ll have to be quick: that particular offer only runs until today, 30 September 2015.
Update: the closing date has now been extended to 15 October 2015."

...and countless sales promotions followed, up until today it's still on sale. More then two f.. years of lies.

To me LWNext doesn't need to be released, the chance of me upgrading again is towards zero and now there is nothing left I cannot do much better elsewhere.

hypersuperduper
11-11-2017, 02:49 AM
This is exactly why the damage being done by this this silence is overstated. We are all just Abe Simpsons shaking our fists at clouds. Lightwave has no future without new blood. A handful of old grouches being more pissed than isual makes no difference one way or another.

50one
11-11-2017, 03:26 AM
Nah. Modo is still in the same level as lw. Good as a secondary app. As primary its not worth risking your career to focus on modo.

Depends what you do...stills - it smokes LW no question here..,.animation? The issue is rendering and bugs you discover when you try to do something...I bet my career twice on it, and twice was very dissapointed, once when rendering stuff fo BBC project, discovered that network rendering is pretty much fcked. Another time when had issues with projection mapping - bugs, bugs that are not fixed since I sent bug reports back in 2013...

Asticles
11-11-2017, 04:08 AM
If it is the marketing dept holding up the release, and corporate presumably imposing the gag order, it almost certainly means that some sort of sale or ownership change is happening or is in negotiation. Unless they plan to just sell lw to a competitor to be stripped for usable tech, a sale (or whatever it is) is probably good news because it likely means an influx of capital. If they were just going to release the new version and hope for the best they would likely have done so already, or at the very least would be updating their users on development status. If they were going to just kill it we probably would have heard that too, either through official channels or leaks from disgruntled employees anonymously breaking their NDAs. I am certainly curious what is going on because of the gag order. All the other outreach and dead periods like the blog and Lino’s renders with long periods of silence in between had all the hallmarks of a developer driven grassroots level marketing effort. Both in the high-quality of the information in them and in the amateurish lack of commitment. It was like a kickstarter pitch. What’s happening now is different, but might not be bad for the continuation of lightwave as a viable product. It MIGHT mean the end, but it may just as well mean that the people with the money (whoever they may wind up being) are involved and have decided that the product has potential and amateur-hour marketing just won’t cut it anymore.

I agree, a sale movement seems totally plausible.

On the past we've seen some 3D packages being sold; on the bright side, Cinema4d with Nemetschek, 3DStudio with Autodesk (more or less), Maya with Autodesk... but there are also bad examples, like Truespace with Microsoft, XSI with Autodesk, Vue with Bentley (I think is dying), Combustion, Flame and Inferno with Autodesk (not 3d but good as an exemple), Mudbox with Autodesk, Thea render with Altair and more...

I only expect Lightwave does not end in something like Daz or such.

Also the dying of Messiah seems similar to what's happening now: silence, strange sales offers that lasts forever, lack of updates...

50one
11-11-2017, 04:20 AM
BMD or bust...

I bloody hope it is....same stuff happened when Fusion was wit eyeon...they went dark for a long time.

Let's hope for the best. Fusion combo would be amazing.

Marander
11-11-2017, 04:35 AM
BMD or bust...


+1 maybe it's even partial, LW 2017 will get released and for example the renderer is licensed / sold to BMD. Or something similar to C4D Lite and AE / AI. But I doubt LW tech is open enough for that / provides the required interfaces.

Asticles
11-11-2017, 04:37 AM
But... they do need a 3d package like Lightwave?

BMD is something like Newtek, isn't it?

Edit: It smells Adobe lol

Marander
11-11-2017, 04:46 AM
But... they do need a 3d package like Lightwave?

BMD is something like Newtek, isn't it?

One thing I never understood is why NewTek did not use any synergy of LW and their broadcast products.

On a side note, Cinema 4D offers saving a Fusion scene integrated in the Save dialog since many releases (at least on Windows). And reads LWO and LWS natively.

Marander
11-11-2017, 04:53 AM
But... they do need a 3d package like Lightwave?

BMD is something like Newtek, isn't it?

Edit: It smells Adobe lol

Doesn't make sense to me, there is a great AE / Cineware integration since long and many artists / studios are used to this stable workflow. And since some weeks there is the Cinema plugin for Illustrator. And Adobe products can use the LW tech even less than BMD imho. They are even using Vray for one of their new products.

hypersuperduper
11-11-2017, 05:13 AM
Adobe probably has their feelers out looking for a 3D package they can own, it does seem like the one big hole in their product range. I wouldn’t assume that interoperability with cinema would be any kind of stop for them buying their own solution. If anything it might just make Adobe hungrier for a larger slice of the pie and Cinema is probably too big for them to swallow. Lightwave does seem like a long shot though, but maybe that’s just because it’s hard to imagine an adobified Lightwave. Lightwave does work pretty well with After Effects too after all.

hrgiger
11-11-2017, 05:14 AM
wow amazing. You guys can take a already bleak reality of Lightwave, and then after months and months of silence start conjecturing that the silence actually means something positive. I have a bridge to sell you guys. ;)

Hail
11-11-2017, 05:18 AM
The evolution of LW came with Modo.

Which is still half baked compared to the other solutions out there. Yes it has some nice modeling tool set but who pays $1800 just to model?
I'd be getting Zbrush at a fraction of that cost and blender which is free but awesome, if I all did was modeling.

hypersuperduper
11-11-2017, 05:20 AM
wow amazing. You guys can take a already bleak reality of Lightwave, and then after months and months of silence start conjecturing that the silence actually means something positive. I have a bridge to sell you guys. ;)
You do realize that most people still on this forum, or these threads at least, are here for the entertainment value right? Imagining what might be happening is more fun than whining.

hrgiger
11-11-2017, 05:23 AM
Which is still half baked compared to the other solutions out there. Yes it has some nice modeling tool set but who pay $1800 just to model?
I'd be getting Zbrush at a fraction of that cost and blender which is free but awesome, if I all did was modeling.

Considering I've been waiting 20 years for LW to improve their modeling, its completely worth it. It also has a better renderer than LW and is more fully featured. But then again, a lot of things in LW are half baked also so sometimes you get what you pay for. and Blender blows. Zbrush is definitely worth having but I wouldn't consider it an either or.

ELinder
11-11-2017, 05:24 AM
Does BMD need anything from LW? Yes, but I have no idea if it's even possible. Fusion isn't a ray tracer, so if they can add that as an optional rendering engine for those node branches that need it, it would be a huge thing. Being able to do reflections, refraction, GI, etc without faking it or bringing sequences in rendered elsewhere would be a major step forward for Fusion.

Asticles
11-11-2017, 06:09 AM
Does BMD need anything from LW? Yes, but I have no idea if it's even possible. Fusion isn't a ray tracer, so if they can add that as an optional rendering engine for those node branches that need it, it would be a huge thing. Being able to do reflections, refraction, GI, etc without faking it or bringing sequences in rendered elsewhere would be a major step forward for Fusion.

But this only needs some sort of render engine. For example, cycles. Not an entire 3D package.

- - - Updated - - -


wow amazing. You guys can take a already bleak reality of Lightwave, and then after months and months of silence start conjecturing that the silence actually means something positive. I have a bridge to sell you guys. ;)

The difference is that now there is also lack of newsletter, or linonews.

samurai_x
11-11-2017, 06:16 AM
Depends what you do...stills - it smokes LW no question here..,.animation? The issue is rendering and bugs you discover when you try to do something...I bet my career twice on it, and twice was very dissapointed, once when rendering stuff fo BBC project, discovered that network rendering is pretty much fcked. Another time when had issues with projection mapping - bugs, bugs that are not fixed since I sent bug reports back in 2013...

Twice huh? :D
I only trust modo for asset creation and nothing else. But zbrush just replaced it when they added the gizmo. So dropped modo a while back.

jperk
11-11-2017, 08:06 AM
I'm learning Zbrush and I'm not looking back. A lot to digest, but very powerful features that are worth using. Happy with my investment.

ELinder
11-11-2017, 08:13 AM
I'm really liking the nodal workflow of Fusion Studio, so I'll probably start learning Houdini and see how it is.

hrgiger
11-11-2017, 09:26 AM
Another satisfied customer!

138507

jeric_synergy
11-11-2017, 11:39 AM
i am noticing less updates or no updates to 3rd party. concerned even these guys are put off by lack of info and progress. i’d say so
I imagine it's pretty hard to make the case to develop for LW.

It might be ok for singletons, buddha bless their hearts (truly, the small shops are saving LW's @ss), but somebody with a staff? Tough to justify.

roboman
11-11-2017, 11:50 AM
It's funny, just this last week two more of the CAD/CAM software's that I use went subscription. One had been posting for over a year that they would never do that and had no plans to do such a thing to it's users. Now the company posts are about how wonderful this is going to be and how it will be good for the user base. One of the big promises from all the companies is that going subscription will enable them to to do more releases. I'm not sure how changing the software to rental equates to more releases, but that apparently is something they feel the customers want. Of course if they already had more releases, with updates the customers wanted, there would have been no reason to go subscription to bring in enough money, as people would be buying the next version.....

Newtek was founded with hardware and software products that no one thought possible. The days of that business model seem to have mostly passed. Companies seem to be struggling to find a new profitable one in the software industry. New versions with things people want are getting harder and harder to write, and the free software is getting closer to the commercial software in capability. Blender asks for money and 'sells' movies. Daz gives away most of it's software then sells and brokers assets and addons. Most others have gone subscription. Lightwave seems to be hunting for another magic rabbit to pull from it's hat. At least that seems like what the wait and talk are leading towards. So yes, I come here for entertainment value and to see what happens next.

jeric_synergy
11-11-2017, 12:54 PM
Cash flow, I'm guessing. How hard must it suck to have to write a {new app/massive update} and get 90% of your revenue in the first couple weeks? HARD, that's what.

Versus a steady, PREDICTABLE trickle of cash, constantly? It's easy to see the attraction.

(Cue the g.d. fanatics....)

MichaelT
11-11-2017, 01:10 PM
As long as they don't put lootboxes into the application.

ristoraven
11-11-2017, 01:41 PM
Well, here's some news. Juanjo on Octane message board:

https://render.otoy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=64035

"Hello,

The future of this project is bright so far. I have no plans to leave the Octane for LightWave plugin development and support, adding all the new Octane features to it and eventually supporing the next LightWave version when available. So, don't worry at all, at least from this side ;)

Thanks,
-Juanjo"

--- so the future looks bright. That is sufficient to me. That I think is in the absolute peak with the NDA what can be said. I have all the patience in the world with LWnext, at least one full year ahead. If things are silent at then, then I might consider shifting to Houdini. Like it has been said here before, with Octane it really doesn't feel bad at all working with LW since Octane is pushing new updates all the time.

hrgiger
11-11-2017, 01:58 PM
The future looks bright from the Octane side as Juanjo said. He can't speak on behalf of the LW side. I don't think anyone is worried about Octanes future.

rustythe1
11-11-2017, 02:25 PM
Cash flow, I'm guessing. How hard must it suck to have to write a {new app/massive update} and get 90% of your revenue in the first couple weeks? HARD, that's what.

Versus a steady, PREDICTABLE trickle of cash, constantly? It's easy to see the attraction.

(Cue the g.d. fanatics....)

Probably not even a trickle, it will likely amount to a lot more as you have to keep subscribing rather than skipping a version here and there like LW, so if you rent it yearly for the equivalent of 75% less than a yearly upgrade but previously 50% of people skipped every other version you would actually be 25% better off and each customer would think they were getting it 25% cheaper so you could easily lose 10% of customers and still make 15% more profit (its how companies like Netflix and sky work out their price rises, they know they are going to upset and lose a fair few but the rise outways that loss)

MichaelT
11-11-2017, 02:58 PM
The future looks bright from the Octane side as Juanjo said. He can't speak on behalf of the LW side. I don't think anyone is worried about Octanes future.

Given that he probably is under NDA, he might have said as much as he can say (I do think he is one of the people having the upcoming release already, as some already do)

hrgiger
11-11-2017, 03:21 PM
Given that he probably is under NDA, he might have said as much as he can say (I do think he is one of the people having the upcoming release already, as some already do)

Given access to the beta version of the software doesn't mean you know what's going on behind the scenes though, that's two different things.

MichaelT
11-11-2017, 03:34 PM
Given access to the beta version of the software doesn't mean you know what's going on behind the scenes though, that's two different things.

True.. but it suggests that (in that case) he is likely to know more than any of us. In any case, I am mostly concerned about their lack of communication.

djwaterman
11-11-2017, 04:12 PM
Well, that statement suggests he doesn't currently have access to the Beta, he just says he plans to support it when it becomes available.

Chris S. (Fez)
11-11-2017, 04:32 PM
IMO Dr. Cross would not have entered the discussion if there was a pending prospective sale. I would prefer a conspiracy at this point but suspect that Next, like Core, is simply not fit for release. I kinda get the feeling that Dr. Cross is The Wolf cleaning up some kind of coding mess:

138517

MichaelT
11-11-2017, 04:55 PM
Well, that statement suggests he doesn't currently have access to the Beta, he just says he plans to support it when it becomes available.

Hmm. It doesn't suggest either way. Just that he will officially do so when it is out. (I still suspect he have access to the beta)

- - - Updated - - -


IMO Dr. Cross would not have entered the discussion if there was a pending prospective sale. I would prefer a conspiracy at this point but suspect that Next, like Core, is simply not fit for release. I kinda get the feeling that Dr. Cross is The Wolf cleaning up some kind of coding mess:

138517

Could we please drop "core" talks? Honestly.. it is an historical anecdote at best, at this point.

hrgiger
11-11-2017, 05:24 PM
Could we please drop "core" talks? Honestly.. it is an historical anecdote at best, at this point.

Probably not far from the truth. The last time anyone from NT actual stepped in to comment on Lightwave territory was when they killed of CORE.

And I suspect that LightWave Next has been ready for release for quite some time now and that its something else holding up the release. I mean, as long as we are all going to be speculative. After all, they said in a blog post a year and a half ago that they were preparing marketing materials for a release that still hasn't happened yet so if people are still going to be delusional enough to think that some bugs are holding things up and they're just trying to 'get it right' and that they've stopped communicating and stopped putting out newsletters because they're just working their little old hearts out for you....well, I don't know what else to say to convince you that Houston, we have a problem.

hypersuperduper
11-11-2017, 05:33 PM
But this doesn’t make sense. It makes sense that development is done and something else is holding up the release. Everything points to that. But what doesn’t make sense is that they are what, shutting down lightwave? Wouldn’t we have heard something if that were the case. I mean sure maybe they are. maybe Newtek decided that they cant afford to market the new version and are cutting their losses, but that is a lot to read into what is clearly a Gag order. You don’t put out a gag order when you kill a product. And if you do people don’t follow it because they are angry. And probably fired so double angry.

rustythe1
11-11-2017, 05:41 PM
I'm actually going with a marketing issue, reading between the lines, the fact the head of marketing was removed from the main "About" page and maybe everything that rob etc needs to be veted, and in another thread it has said LW was finished and something else was holding it up, and i think one of the moderator statements even hinted at such, and also don't forget they cant release a brand new render engine without any documentation, training materials etc, and maybe that department are involved with something else, so it could have nothing to do with LW, LWG at all, and at some point we might all get told what that is, and everyone will be "ahh, it makes sense now!"

wingzeta
11-11-2017, 05:42 PM
Too bad we are left to speculate wildly... As far as the Adobe buy out idea, I hope that doesn't happen. LW would get the money and marketing muscle to become the app we all know it can be, only to be locked behind a rental paywall, where you would need to pay the piper to open your files. That kind of defeats the purpose for me. BMD on the other hand might be nice, but then you have to think that NT, like BMD is in the video hardware business, so you would hope they would see the light, of having a good software suite of their own. But, while BMD turned Divinci into an NLE, NT let Speed Edit die among others. I wish they would seriously look at BMD's model, and see that software can be a hook to your other products, and your other products can be a hook for your software.

As far as the silence, it seems like either a sale or lawsuit are the things that could cause a gag order. Most other reasons, just seem like incompetent public relations, because if it was just a show stopping bug or two that will take major work and time to fix, they could just say as much. At that point maybe hire a few developers to bug fix 2015 for a free update, just to keep users happy during the delay.

Norka
11-11-2017, 05:42 PM
Well, that statement suggests he doesn't currently have access to the Beta, he just says he plans to support it when it becomes available.

Juanjo does indeed have access to LWNext, and has for quite some time... I think it's likely he has been getting builds of SDKs too, since his plugin development is by far the most important of all LW plugs. LW3DG would be fools to not give him full carte blanche.

wingzeta
11-11-2017, 05:47 PM
Other wild speculation just for fun. LW Next has some new tech being used by Rob on Avatar, and delays to Avatar2 proprietary feature X are holding up release of LW.

ie Avatar NDA, not NT NDA, hence out of their control.

hypersuperduper
11-11-2017, 05:52 PM
Yeegads. Adobe lightwave would be a horror show. I just was speculating wildly. I don’t think that would actually happen at least I hope not. It just seems odd that adobe hasn’t yet jumped in with both feet in The 3D market.

wingzeta
11-11-2017, 05:58 PM
My understanding was that virtual studio was developed for Avatar, and then made it into a later release of LW. But that may be untrue. Bad News from IMDB:
"The release date has been pushed back to 2020. According to Cameron this is because all upcoming sequels are being filmed 'back to back', similar to Peter Jackson's 'Lord of the Rings' trilogy. " This would really suck if LW was stuck until 2020 because of Avatar. Again just wild speculation for fun.

jeric_synergy
11-11-2017, 06:03 PM
Yeegads. Adobe lightwave would be a horror show. I just was speculating wildly. I don’t think that would actually happen at least I hope not. It just seems odd that adobe hasn’t yet jumped in with both feet in The 3D market.

Yeah, THE most successful company in 2d graphics doesn't know ANYthing about making graphic stuff work. :ohmy: :eyeroll:

I suspect they feel their partnership with Maxon covers that pretty well.

hypersuperduper
11-11-2017, 06:12 PM
That’s not really what I meant. I use adobe products all the time and love them, particularly illustrator and after effects (photoshop is a pox on the land, but is indispensable) but I can’t say I am too happy with their business model. As far as maxon, I doubt if Adobe is entirely satisfied with a partnership, tbh. why leave money on the table. I expect backstabbing to commence eventually and for adobe to try to make their own solution. There can be only one.

wingzeta
11-11-2017, 06:41 PM
The delay of Avatar2 from 2018 to 2020, and maybe an unwillingness by Avatar team to reveal a bit of new (virtual studio?) tech they are using in filming, which began a few months ago, could be a "marketing reason". The tech would have been developed a few years ago when shooting was supposed to start, and be something they could not include in the LW blog.

hypersuperduper
11-11-2017, 06:52 PM
This is totally preposterous. I love it!

See, when we don’t have any real information this kind of speculation is WAY more fun than glum old doomsday predictions.

hrgiger
11-11-2017, 06:54 PM
Well at least we can agree its preposterous.

Surrealist.
11-11-2017, 07:15 PM
Which is why they closed the Burbank offices. The entire development crew for LightWave is sleeping on the set of Avatar.

It's all about economics.

Chris S. (Fez)
11-11-2017, 07:24 PM
We'll see. Core was delayed and canned because the code was not up to snuff. I hardly think it is delusional to surmise that LW management and the development team might have been too ambitious with their Borg strategy. Perhaps Next did not meet Newtek's quality or stability standards, so senior Newtek stepped in to try to salvage the situation.

Maybe LW Group management is already gone but will officially "find opportunities elsewhere" shortly after the Next release. This is quite common in government and military. Whatever the excuse, I expect it will be keenly unsatisfying to the LW community.

Nicolas Jordan
11-11-2017, 08:29 PM
On linkedIn it says he is still at NT

I find many people are very slow at updating there Linked In profiles and much of the time this is intentional.

Nicolas Jordan
11-11-2017, 08:32 PM
We'll see. Core was delayed and canned because the code was not up to snuff. I hardly think it is delusional to surmise that LW management and the development team might have been too ambitious with their Borg strategy. Perhaps Next did not meet Newtek's quality or stability standards, so senior Newtek stepped in to try to salvage the situation.

Maybe LW Group management is already gone but will officially "find opportunities elsewhere" shortly after the Next release. This is quite common in government and military. Whatever the excuse, I expect it will be keenly unsatisfying to the LW community.

Yep they will probably keep it under wraps until release then we will get the good news and bad news at the same time to help smooth things over a bit.

gar26lw
11-11-2017, 09:15 PM
True.. but it suggests that (in that case) he is likely to know more than any of us. In any case, I am mostly concerned about their lack of communication.

i think they have given the beta to all those that matter and communicate with them on a private forum. you lot dont matter. :P

gar26lw
11-11-2017, 09:23 PM
The delay of Avatar2 from 2018 to 2020, and maybe an unwillingness by Avatar team to reveal a bit of new (virtual studio?) tech they are using in filming, which began a few months ago, could be a "marketing reason". The tech would have been developed a few years ago when shooting was supposed to start, and be something they could not include in the LW blog.

do you think lw is still used for avatar? maybe they use something else now? how to tell? questions

wingzeta
11-11-2017, 11:34 PM
do you think lw is still used for avatar? maybe they use something else now? how to tell? questions

Just joking, but one could connect a few dots with Avatar, if you stretch a little or a lot.

It seems to me rather than virtual studio, they would use something like an unreal engine mod to do the virtual fly through shots these days. From what I remember, they had cameras being operated by camera men on set, where the xyz of the cam position was being sent live into the computer, and the camera men could see a wireframe of the 3D set in their viewfinder, as they moved. They scaled the sets down, so that the cameraman could walk around in the jungle like a giant, so they could make big sweeping crane and dolly movements with just a few steps or movement. It gave the camerawork a handheld feel, but a larger sweep. They could run miles through the jungle or fly through the mountains by walking across the studio. These days a VR headset seems likely, though I would prefer just the viewfinder and monitors if I had to operate the cam. The advantage of VR would be the ability to use peripheral vision to anticipate your framing, or if you could look around while holding the camera on target, and find your next angle.

To connect back to LW, if Rob was scheduled to work on Av2, and he put the LW3DG on the task of some next gen virtual studio tools because Cameron had some request or whatever... And if some of that tech/code was developed for avatar's production by another company (Cameron's, or ILM for instance), and licensed to LW to incorporate into VS to use for the production, but included an NDA... blah blah blah I'll stop now

bazsa73
11-12-2017, 01:52 AM
I like this theory wingzeta! +1.

MichaelT
11-12-2017, 02:07 AM
I don't know of any application that would be blocked from updating, regardless how it is used by a customer. No.. if I am to suspect anything it would be this.. They saw the comments in forums etc.. and realized that they needed more changes. Pushing the date back even further. But given how vitriolic the community have been previously, they decided to stop communicating entirely.

hypersuperduper
11-12-2017, 02:08 AM
I sort of doubt the silence is about quality and stability of the next version. That doesn’t really gel with the few substantive leaks that we’ve had such as release notes from third parties plugins like lwcad that indicate compatibility with next version and stuff. That would basically mean that the stuff in the blog hasn’t happened. That they had to scrap that and just tack on new features. Perhaps there was part of the “borg strategy” that wasn’t really mentioned in the blog like getting the next lightwave into a few major tv productions and like start trek and outreach with the blog that didn’t really pan out and perhaps that would explain the Burbank closure. Maybe all that was a costly boondoggle. If newtek stepped in to take over it was surely more on a managerial level. Like ok the version is done and ready. So they can safely start letting heads roll. I don’t think they would step in and start cleaning up code. That doesn’t really work.

MichaelT
11-12-2017, 02:11 AM
I didn't suggest quality and stability though, I mean they literally need more features (or even changes)

hypersuperduper
11-12-2017, 02:22 AM
I didn't suggest quality and stability though, I mean they literally need more features (or even changes)

Yeah, no, I was replying to an earlier comment. You may be right that newtek questioned the whole strategic wisdom of releasing a version with a new engine and few new features. That’s possible, but delaying the release to add features is something that could be spun as a positive for customers. I think probably the current silence is more about high level changes. Like someone new is in Charge and is getting the lay of the land. So all outside communication is stopped.

If you are going to make strategic and managerial changes. It is better to make them prior to release while only us forum trolls are paying attention rather that directly after where it would be much more public.

MichaelT
11-12-2017, 03:00 AM
Yeah, that too.

Oedo 808
11-12-2017, 05:06 AM
I can't believe it's not Butter.

rustythe1
11-12-2017, 05:06 AM
do you think lw is still used for avatar? maybe they use something else now? how to tell? questions

actually, i cant find the article i found the other day as i was looking for something unrelated, but ILM do still use lightwave as a virtual studio and asset tool

Andy Webb
11-12-2017, 05:44 AM
I've been following these LW Next threads and have been tempted occasionally to join in, but the reality is I have very little to say that is different to what has already been said.

Most of what has been discussed I have a lot of sympathy for.

My biggest fear is for LightWave Next to be released and be met with a chorus of "is this it, is this what we have waited all this time for!" My worry is that we get something faster with a few goodies but looks and feels like 15.3 and no modeller update.

Surely this delay has done nothing but raised expectations beyond what was written in the blog posts?

If not what is it that we are waiting for?

Luc_Feri
11-12-2017, 05:53 AM
http://www.cgchannel.com/2015/09/newtek-announces-new-lightwave-pricing/


What a classic find mate, absolute gem.

Sad.............................

ristoraven
11-12-2017, 06:02 AM
I've been following these LW Next threads and have been tempted occasionally to join in, but the reality is I have very little to say that is different to what has already been said.


If not what is it that we are waiting for?

I am waiting for an upgrade to my hardware and get some serious firepower. If I now have a Tie fighter, I am looking forward to get the Millenium Falcon. With Octane Render Cloud (ORC) I would have the Death Star at my disposal.
All this to be able to do 10 000+ frame animations / scenes. I am looking forward merely just performance improvements to Lightwave Layout, so I could animate multimillion polygon scenes, with ease. Modeler upgrades would be great too, but not a deal breaker if they won't show up. There's plenty of other modelers out there that compensates that department.

Thing is, I went to the wilderness of VR and I don't wanna come out from there. It's beyond awesome. Not coming back to 2d flatspace ever again.

"I have seen things you people wouldn't believe". :)

hypersuperduper
11-12-2017, 06:23 AM
What a classic find mate, absolute gem.

Me and you tried to question this two years ago and got told in no uncertain terms that we were wrong.

This started my rant 2 years ago!!! I also said Hollywood was the church of satan in everything it represented and was a cesspit and American business ethics were the most dishonest and immoral this world has ever seen. I got laughed off the forums with that rant, delusional muppet trying to change the world on a forum.

Read that CGchannel article and tell me I'm full of BS.

In the words of Ice-T. Who's laughing now momma, who's laughing now biatch.

whats your point? that you feel you were conned? nothing is that article seems to have been proven untrue so far except the overall timeline and the fact that they didn't enforce the deadline of the upgrade pricing scheme. No doubt that makes some people feel tricked into making a purchase they may not have otherwise, but unless Newtek fails to deliver the product they have said they are delivering (and I for one am not even remotely convinced yet that's is the case) its all about a delay, which, even if it's a year plus long delay is a far cry from "cesspit"and "immoral", I am willing to attribute all of it to overzealous amateur-hour marketing coupled with over-optimistic development goals. I've been lied to way worse and ripped off way worse by lots of companies, European, American, and other i would be willing to bet that so has everyone else on this forum.

Luc_Feri
11-12-2017, 06:50 AM
whats your point? that you feel you were conned? nothing is that article seems to have been proven untrue so far except the overall timeline and the fact that they didn't enforce the deadline of the upgrade pricing scheme. No doubt that makes some people feel tricked into making a purchase they may not have otherwise.........

Read the article, sounds like a new paradigm is about to happen, imminently, it reads as laughable now, truly.

'No doubt that makes some people feel tricked into making a purchase they may not have otherwise' . Well finally the penny drops for some? Exactly that for christ sake. :D

Sad.....................

hrgiger
11-12-2017, 08:02 AM
Well the funny thing about that article is the flak that people here have given foundry for their switch to subscription and maintenance licensing and yet if that pricing in that article holds true, that pricing is even more punishing then foundry maintenance which is only 599 if you dont maintain your license each year where it will be 795 with Lightwave. So really newtek has gone to maintenance licensing whether theyre calling it that or not. Dont upgrade each time and youre paying a higher price next time.

hypersuperduper
11-12-2017, 08:18 AM
i read the article. it says the same things that LW3DG have been saying this whole time. New foundation, great performance, modern architecture, blah blah blah. I am not going to argue that is didn't sound like it was almost ready, but I've worked in game software my whole adult life and delays happen often when you think you are almost done. There is that truism that the last 10% counts for 90% of the time. Nothing we've seen thus far clearly indicates anything other than a major delay, and possibly some management changes. There is clearly a beta out there and there are no leaks from 3rd parties indicating it doesn't do what was promised.
Plus, They haven't promised the moon, they have promised a modern foundation a new renderer and some other new stuff like a modifier stack. indeed many of the complaints on these forums are that even IF LW next it delivers on its promises it is far too little, too late. Whether or not to believe that LW3DG can capitalize on that foundation they have ostensibly built is a choice that every potential customer has to make, and I completely respect anyone who thinks they can't. Also its not like they asked for an advance. They asked people to upgrade to 2015, the money buys the current version of Lightwave. The NEXT upgrade pricing should be, for any diligent customer at least, an added value, not the primary reason for getting 2015.

Don't get me wrong if it goes too much longer without a version or a good explanation as to why it has been delayed so much I will also call foul, but I don't think we are there yet.

As far as the general shittiness of business practices now vs when you were a kid. Rose colored glasses, dude. Not to get too political, but "there's a sucker born every minute" has been the case since capitalism immemorial. Go look up the East India Company. When it comes to the current wave of unbridled take-no-prisoner capitalism that is tearing apart our societies, Thatcher bears just as much if not more responsibility in the UK than any sort of 'Americanization' of business.

Paul_Boland
11-12-2017, 08:24 AM
I don't put too much faith in Dr. Cross's forum posts. As I mentioned before, the day before Atari released Rollercoaster Tycoon World, the Atari CEO released a statement to the community stating that they (Atari) were fully behind the game. The next day the game released to major criticism and Atari dropped it as fast as they could! Here's the link:
https://forum.rollercoastertycoon.com/showthread.php?10141-A-Short-Message-from-Atari-s-CEO

I also find it hard to believe that Lightwave Next is ready to go, ready for release, to bring sales and money into the company, and a marketing issue is holding it back all this time.

I think there are major issues going on with Lightwave Next, perhaps a sale of the software, or the end of the software! Time will tell but seriously, LW3DG, it's mid November, you need to talk to your users and let us know what's going on!!!

hypersuperduper
11-12-2017, 08:28 AM
Well the funny thing about that article is the flak that people here have given foundry for their switch to subscription and maintenance licensing and yet if that pricing in that article holds true, that pricing is even more punishing then foundry maintenance which is only 599 if you dont maintain your license each year where it will be 795 with Lightwave. So really newtek has gone to maintenance licensing whether theyre calling it that or not. Dont upgrade each time and youre paying a higher price next time.


except the article pretty clearly states that they aren't going to an annual release schedule. I would say at best bi-annual looking at how slow they are now. so if you skip every other version it would be 795 spread over like 4 years, right?

hrgiger
11-12-2017, 08:34 AM
except the article pretty clearly states that they aren't going to an annual release schedule. I would say at best bi-annual looking at how slow they are now. so if you skip every other version it would be 795 spread over like 4 years, right?

Really depends. Lw 10 only lasted a year. Other releases that lasted longer normally got point releases. You going to be happy moving forward waiting 3 and 4 years in between each release?
Modo gets updated 3x a year.

Luc_Feri
11-12-2017, 08:40 AM
As far as the general shittiness of business practices now vs when you were a kid. Rose colored glasses, dude. Not to get too political, but "there's a sucker born every minute" has been the case since capitalism immemorial. Go look up the East India Company. When it comes to the current wave of unbridled take-no-prisoner capitalism that is tearing apart our societies, Thatcher bears just as much if not more responsibility in the UK than any sort of 'Americanization' of business.

Did you go back and read the thread from 2 years ago. RebelHill threw that East India Company line at me then, because I have a photographic memory I recall it, he mentioned rose coloured glasses too. ;)

[Content removed by Moderator: And yet, you went directly there, so you'll have to forgive me for stopping this breach of forum policy in its tracks before it escalates.]

Sad...........I went there or we, get it right mod, two people as in we.

Luc_Feri
11-12-2017, 08:48 AM
Well the funny thing about that article is the flak that people here have given foundry for their switch to subscription and maintenance licensing and yet if that pricing in that article holds true, that pricing is even more punishing then foundry maintenance which is only 599 if you dont maintain your license each year where it will be 795 with Lightwave. So really newtek has gone to maintenance licensing whether theyre calling it that or not. Dont upgrade each time and youre paying a higher price next time.

That would be sly would it not? But yeah, maybe your right.

Luc_Feri
11-12-2017, 09:09 AM
[Content removed by Moderator: And yet, you went directly there, so you'll have to forgive me for stopping this breach of forum policy in its tracks before it escalates.]

Sad..................

Silenced..............

FO.

hypersuperduper
11-12-2017, 09:49 AM
Really depends. Lw 10 only lasted a year. Other releases that lasted longer normally got point releases. You going to be happy moving forward waiting 3 and 4 years in between each release?
Modo gets updated 3x a year.

wouldn't really describe my current outlook concerning lightwave as "happy" I don't however feel cheated. I feel like I have got my moneys worth, and if the wheels really have fallen off the lightwave bus, I will grudgingly subscribe to Maya most likely and just accept it,

I would however be fine with new LW versions very other year or so and would likely stay current. The scenario i described in my hypothetical world in which a new lightwave actually exists was a user that decided to skip every other release. Then it would be like four years at an every other year release schedule.

hrgiger
11-12-2017, 09:59 AM
wouldn't really describe my current outlook concerning lightwave as "happy" I don't however feel cheated. I feel like I have got my moneys worth, and if the wheels really have fallen off the lightwave bus, I will grudgingly subscribe to Maya most likely and just accept it,

I would however be fine with new LW versions very other year or so and would likely stay current. The scenario i described in my hypothetical world in which a new lightwave actually exists was a user that decided to skip every other release. Then it would be like four years at an every other year release schedule.

Sure for 299 its not really a big outlay of cash and i would say that lightwave is worth it. But then again youre describing a schedule that nt neither will commit to or has been able to deliver on in the past.

hypersuperduper
11-12-2017, 10:15 AM
Sure for 299 its not really a big outlay of cash and i would say that lightwave is worth it. But then again youre describing a schedule that nt neither will commit to or has been able to deliver on in the past.

sure, thats true. But regardless. as long as they can refrain from pulling the unprofessional nonsense they are pulling now on a regular basis I will put up with a pretty slow upgrade pace. As far as I am concerned, the dev plan they laid out in the blog sounded pretty decent. something needs to happen soon though.

jeric_synergy
11-12-2017, 10:34 AM
Was the other thread just getting too TOO embarrassingly long? 'Cuz this one is just more of the same.

SBowie
11-12-2017, 10:43 AM
Sad...................Pity


Silenced..............Hardly


FO.WE. :)

rustythe1
11-12-2017, 11:21 AM
Was the other thread just getting too TOO embarrassingly long? 'Cuz this one is just more of the same.

every thread is the same, no matter the subject it comes back to either no lightwave news, or you should use Blender, cinema 4D, or Modo is going to be a 1000 times better next week, and Zbrush communication is better even though Z5 was originally coming out over 3 years ago (i saw a show that announced it before 4r6)

hrgiger
11-12-2017, 11:38 AM
every thread is the same, no matter the subject it comes back to either no lightwave news, or you should use Blender, cinema 4D, or Modo is going to be a 1000 times better next week, and Zbrush communication is better even though Z5 was originally coming out over 3 years ago (i saw a show that announced it before 4r6)
Except you have to admit, zbrush users have nothing to complain about. Not only did Pixologic put out a pretty awesome 4r8 version when they said they wouldnt, but zbrush users have never had to pay for an update.

Luc_Feri
11-12-2017, 11:38 AM
We. Yes thankyou. Cheers Steve. No politics, I get it.

I've said enough on this LW3DG matter. I was going to leave for good, but that posted link to cgchannel said it all for me and I had to return once more for another special rant.

How could we go from that positivity and vibe gushed by Rob to this, what a mess you created for yourself and it's echoed by many on here.

It's not positive for me to remain on here, I know this, I ought to leave for good but I still kinda hoped things might change, not now.

It's best I go.

Greenlaw
11-12-2017, 11:56 AM
every thread is the same, no matter the subject it comes back to either no lightwave news, or you should use Blender, cinema 4D, or Modo is going to be a 1000 times better next week, and Zbrush communication is better...

The cats thread is still about cats. I like the cats thread. It's a nice thread. But I guess somebody will spoil it now. :)

pinkmouse
11-12-2017, 12:02 PM
My cat has just discovered the bed of my 3D printer stays warm for a while after printing. Now I can't get to my new Arduino CNC Shield case...:D

jeric_synergy
11-12-2017, 12:08 PM
every thread is the same, no matter the subject it comes back to either no lightwave news,....
I disagree: some people are still doing interesting work and talking about the techniques they used to accomplish it. Spinland is running a modeling challenge ("Spaceship porn").

There's no reason not to work on/talk about interesting LW stuff while our Stanley Steamer software gets its flux capacitor upgrade: it hasn't stopped working.

And there's all sorts of reasons to stop wanking off for the umpteenth time on chewed and re-chewed arguments. Or at least keep them to the one pointless thread that already exists.

jeric_synergy
11-12-2017, 12:36 PM
I guess we'll always have cats.

Greenlaw
11-12-2017, 01:25 PM
Hmm....maybe we have that wrong. Every thread is the same, no matter the subject it comes back to cats.

jperk
11-12-2017, 02:25 PM
The only ones using LW are the old-timers and Star Trek fans (whom are basically the old-timers). Modo has been the "LWNext" for quite some time, but I think Cinema4D is becoming more relevant than Modo and LW. At least that's what job experience descriptions insist. Also, Blender looks very promising too and I hope the interface improves in 2018.

For now, I'm 100% invested in Zbrush. I'll just pay the $30 per month (or as needed) for Maya LT when it comes time to rigging and animation. If Autodesk still had the Maya LT perpetual license I'd be an owner by now. I started learning Maya (in 2015) right when Autodesk was switching exclusively to subscription. Might look into Keyshot down the line too, but I've learned it doesn't have rigging tools.

Chris S. (Fez)
11-12-2017, 03:09 PM
The only ones using LW are the old-timers and Star Trek fans (whom are basically the old-timers). Modo has been the "LWNext" for quite some time.

Again, NewTek is well aware that Lightwave has fallen behind. The entire point of Lightwave Next is to offer a faster, more competitive product.

I'll be evaluating Modo 11.2 soon.

If Lightwave offers nothing but superior performance and seamless, solid Octane integration then NewTek will sell seats.

Check out this Redshift video. It shows the power of being able to interactively review and refine animated scenes:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3QPdQy2V-7w

If Next viewport is faster than the competition then Lightwave will be a perfectly fine solution for many projects. If it is not faster then...well, what have we been waiting for?

jwiede
11-12-2017, 03:39 PM
More and more like the Amiga by the day.

jperk
11-12-2017, 03:48 PM
The LWNext theme song...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTyN-vvFIkE

hypersuperduper
11-12-2017, 03:57 PM
More and more like the Amiga by the day.

Methinks the market for 3D software circa now and consumer computer hardware circa back when the dinosaurs roamed the earth are not all that similar, and parallels are difficult to draw.

Exclaim
11-12-2017, 04:52 PM
The only ones using LW are the old-timers and Star Trek fans (whom are basically the old-timers). Modo has been the "LWNext" for quite some time, but I think Cinema4D is becoming more relevant than Modo and LW. At least that's what job experience descriptions insist. Also, Blender looks very promising too and I hope the interface improves in 2018.

For now, I'm 100% invested in Zbrush. I'll just pay the $30 per month (or as needed) for Maya LT when it comes time to rigging and animation. If Autodesk still had the Maya LT perpetual license I'd be an owner by now. I started learning Maya (in 2015) right when Autodesk was switching exclusively to subscription. Might look into Keyshot down the line too, but I've learned it doesn't have rigging tools.
It all comes down to why you use 3d apps. If you want to work for a big studio, like ILM, just work on a solid portfolio. They really don't care what software you use because, they aren't using the Maya/etc everyone else is. If you are a broke hobbyist, use Blender3d. Then everything else is what you have interest in, and/or can afford.

MichaelT
11-12-2017, 05:01 PM
I don't put too much faith in Dr. Cross's forum posts. As I mentioned before, the day before Atari released Rollercoaster Tycoon World, the Atari CEO released a statement to the community stating that they (Atari) were fully behind the game. The next day the game released to major criticism and Atari dropped it as fast as they could! Here's the link:
https://forum.rollercoastertycoon.com/showthread.php?10141-A-Short-Message-from-Atari-s-CEO

I also find it hard to believe that Lightwave Next is ready to go, ready for release, to bring sales and money into the company, and a marketing issue is holding it back all this time.

I think there are major issues going on with Lightwave Next, perhaps a sale of the software, or the end of the software! Time will tell but seriously, LW3DG, it's mid November, you need to talk to your users and let us know what's going on!!!

What posts?

hrgiger
11-12-2017, 05:09 PM
What posts?

Back in August. More of the same old we're working on it. http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?154257-I-really-do-lose-my-patience-dear-NewTek-company&p=1514309&viewfull=1#post1514309 One on the next page also.

jperk
11-12-2017, 05:19 PM
It all comes down to why you use 3d apps. If you want to work for a big studio, like ILM, just work on a solid portfolio. They really don't care what software you use because, they aren't using the Maya/etc everyone else is. If you are a broke hobbyist, use Blender3d. Then everything else is what you have interest in, and/or can afford.

Zbrush! Then Maya for Animation.

MichaelT
11-12-2017, 05:27 PM
Hmm, well. While I have no doubt they too are feeling the pressure, they do need to keep in mind that this could have been avoided by better communication. It is admirable that he reached out.. but yeah.. communication. It really needs to improve. I have no doubt that this silence of theirs isn't exactly helping their image. Then it really doesn't matter who they are.. or not. People (who sees this lack of communication) will judge them by their lack of engagement. And I don't mean the people here, I mean people coming here from the outside. Or to their forums etc.. Like I said before.. Silence isn't a virtue in this case. They can absolutely choose not to share information, but by engaging they will show those very same people that they *do* engage. And this (I think) is very valuable for an outside observer. Remember, those people talk to their friends too. Just my two cents.

hypersuperduper
11-12-2017, 05:27 PM
You know what would be funny. If it all really just is a production delay and the next version just rolls out in a few weeks and it’s basically what they said it would be. No sale, nobody fired, no drama anywhere but on this forum.

MichaelT
11-12-2017, 05:30 PM
I don't think there is much drama in the office. Heck, they might even print the funniest comments/theories out, and have a good laugh on their coffee breaks ;) ... Still ... communication. Let it happen.

hypersuperduper
11-12-2017, 05:46 PM
They don’t get coffee breaks until we get a new lightwave!

Chris S. (Fez)
11-12-2017, 05:49 PM
No sale, nobody fired, no drama anywhere but on this forum.
I hope so. Other than the silence, I support Rob's vision for the future of Lightwave 100%.

Hopefully the ends will justify the means and if Next is awesome then that is enough for most. If all the leg work for more frequent releases is in place perhaps there will be a new era of development and communication and just general satisfaction within the community. Cause the constant doom-n-gloom and ads for other software is tiresome (though I understand and have contributed to the toxic atmosphere).

Unless there is some kind of legally binding "release the hounds" gag order, Newtek should at least provide a Lightwave progress report by the end of the year. This is bad for their business and for anyone who uses Lightwave for business.

fablefox
11-12-2017, 06:01 PM
I don't think there is much drama in the office. Heck, they might even print the funniest comments/theories out, and have a good laugh on their coffee breaks ;) ... Still ... communication. Let it happen.

I hope they also get the laugh when sales number (or the lack of it) printed as people moved on to other apps. I still remember in 2010 the dwindling number of movies using LW. Now Blender is moving into TV (and film).

I hope they know what they are doing. But considering that they promised on the blog about communication, and failed to deliver even that, I don't have much hope.

hypersuperduper
11-12-2017, 06:04 PM
I don’t think the damage is that bad yet honestly. We’ve been in limbo for what, 6, 7 months give or take? That’s really not that unusual when it comes to software is it?, but if it stays like this into 2018, it will probably get real bad real fast.

hrgiger
11-12-2017, 06:23 PM
I don’t think the damage is that bad yet honestly. We’ve been in limbo for what, 6, 7 months give or take? That’s really not that unusual when it comes to software is it?, but if it stays like this into 2018, it will probably get real bad real fast.

LW has been on the decline for years, especially since the LW9/CORE days. And I would say we've been in Limbo for this particular release for at least a year and a half now. LW typically does not go this long without a point release/bug fix and they told us a year and a half ago in the blog post about Upcoming performance optimizations that they were too busy to post because as they were moving closer to a release and were working on development, marketing and sales related details which implied that a release was imminent. A year and a half later, here we are.

hypersuperduper
11-12-2017, 11:18 PM
The last blog post was February, and there were minor updates and Lino was releasing periodic renders from the new version well into the spring. I would say sure there was frustration as to when exactly there would be a release, but the sense was that they were working on it. It wasn’t until after that that they went dark and nobody can tell us what the status is. That’s limbo.

erikals
11-13-2017, 04:01 AM
i've given up expecting a [soon] release. it's just easier that way.

i pretend there is a Christmas release date... 42 days left... Zzzzz...


I don't think there is much drama in the office.
Heck, they might even print the funniest comments/theories out, and have a good laugh on their coffee breaks

i hope, and i'm sure they do   :)

Luc_Feri
11-13-2017, 04:10 AM
I don’t think the damage is that bad yet honestly

LOL, ROFLMAO. :D

I looked backed at my old posts from 2 years ago yesterday later on. I actually rounded up on some people for being so negative, the posts are still there. One guy even says he couldn't believe it was me posting later as I was such a positive guy on the forums, a mate Farhad, a good dude on these forums.

I didn't see it what the old users kept going on about. Having read my old posts, for anyone including LW3DG, Rob, Lino, who thinks I'm a LW hater, see the disintegration of user Luc_Feri before your very eyes, lol.

All because of one simple rejection of fact with terribly bad marketing, I was giving constructive criticism, it was rejected. I knew they were on dangerous ground and risking it, I cared, I really did. Same people said same things over and over, I thought they were wrong and negative, now I see why they had such feelings.

I still hope to proven wrong and LW Next is tremendous, a real game changer, I really hoped, I just can't believe it sorry.

fablefox
11-13-2017, 04:44 AM
I don’t think the damage is that bad yet honestly. We’ve been in limbo for what, 6, 7 months give or take? That’s really not that unusual when it comes to software is it?, but if it stays like this into 2018, it will probably get real bad real fast.

I'm not so sure. Pro Render supports Blender after Max and Maya. RenderMan supports Blender. I think there is Massive plug-ins for Blender (if I remember latest Blender Conference correctly). So on and so forth. There is a place in my heart for LW, but I'm not sure for how long.

Talks about Blender Conference, Blender is way, way more than arrived. It's here to stay. The migration is slow for some studios, fast for others. But I think what happened to XSI and recent Fabric Engine, studios knew that they have to keep Blender in their pockets, one way or the other. Open source is key. Maybe one day Blender will be the Red Hat of 3D Software. Since Ton finally accepted the long suggested that there should be Blender Studios, this day will arrive sooner than later. I wonder if companies support on Blender will be linear or quadratic. The more companies support Blender, the more companies want to support Blender.

And talk about XSI, I wonder how many studios feel the same about LW - specially considering the silence. Just because other products sell well, nobody knows about the future of LW.

Oh well...

erikals
11-13-2017, 04:46 AM
excluding point releases, LightWave Next is pretty much according to previous releases, with a 3 year cycle.


Oh well...

yep :)

lardbros
11-13-2017, 05:25 AM
I find it quite funny... new threads popping up about the same thing, and the same people saying the exact same thing.
Not sure why you guys are even still here. :)

Imagine how much cool work you could have done if you didn't spend this much time typing?

(Damn, I could have modelled a cube and added a few bevels instead of typing this)

dballesg
11-13-2017, 06:07 AM
Sad..................


Pity


Silenced..............


Hardly


FO.


WE. :)

Why I think thhese posts shoul be printed, framed and exhibited at MOMA? :question:

hypersuperduper
11-13-2017, 06:28 AM
New versions of this threads popping up because people's situations change. I've been in the middle of a project that is only now nearing its conclusion so the question of what software the next one will use is becoming relevant for me, whereas a year or 6 months ago I was deep in production and, while it was interesting to see what was being planned and I am pretty sure I posted some thoughts on the promised features I didn't particularly care really about the timeline and I was largely unfazed by the usual doomsday prophets. I wouldn't switch version mid-project anyways, the feature list looked basically fine to me, and I figured the new version would probably be out by now.
Now here we are and still no new version and commuication has dried up completely. lw2015 is getting pretty long in the tooth, so the question of what comes next is becoming relevant for me and I feel like talking about the situation.

Or if you prefer, I am just late to the pity party so I am still in denial mode, and haven't transitioned through grief and acceptance.

gar26lw
11-13-2017, 07:59 AM
well, this is the same for me. its between modo with vray or octane and lw, with or without octane. next dosnt really come into it as its non existent.

ive been evaluating these a lot. i must say that i find myself in agreement with bryphi (sp?). the main problem with octane is lack of ability to use the standrd gradient nodes, utility nodes such as dpont and dbw (i use these a lot, esp rman collection ans shadermiester) and also other options such as incidence, substances , weights and ease of mass changes and scene wide alterations. modo is very good with this btw.

i have come to the conclusion that lw next could really kick it if it can match octane for quality and speed while retaining the flexibility and utility of a cpu based renderer with the extra nodes such as those mentioned above.
linos tiger makes more sense to me now. with the comparison to octane.

i hope it comes out real soon. time is such an issue here.

if you are considering options, i consider it to be down to 3.

wait for next
use octane
use modo.

personally, i didnt find vray offering enough of an advantage over the other options atm but correct me if wrong.

hrgiger
11-13-2017, 08:23 AM
I just dont know why people consider lw something you would use in place of something else? Its dirt cheap. Use both.

ELinder
11-13-2017, 08:35 AM
I find it quite funny... new threads popping up about the same thing, and the same people saying the exact same thing.
Not sure why you guys are even still here. :)

Imagine how much cool work you could have done if you didn't spend this much time typing?

(Damn, I could have modelled a cube and added a few bevels instead of typing this)

The problem being since there are still so many unfixed bugs there's a fair likelihood that would have ended in "An error has occurred that may leave Modeler unstable..."
I find it maddening that we blindly accept software that doesn't work as advertised and yet do not accept it in any other product we buy at the store. No, I don't care how complicated software can be, they at lease need to make the attempt at fixing things. How many years have some bugs been around without being resolved?

gar26lw
11-13-2017, 08:42 AM
@hrgiger - cos bouncing back and forth between packages is a pita. plus multiple users

- - - Updated - - -


The problem being since there are still so many unfixed bugs there's a fair likelihood that would have ended in "An error has occurred that may leave Modeler unstable..."
I find it maddening that we blindly accept software that doesn't work as advertised and yet do not accept it in any other product we buy at the store. No, I don't care how complicated software can be, they at lease need to make the attempt at fixing things. How many years have some bugs been around without being resolved?


yeah that one pisses me off no end

MichaelT
11-13-2017, 08:45 AM
@gar26lw :

All renderers are good at different things. Octane while fast, suffers from being a GPU renderer. As soon as the scene is complicated, the updates (via data bus transfers) would quickly kill any speed benefits. It is good for smaller things, and it supports VDB too which is really nice. The same can be said about Redshift, which is even more dependent on the GPU. It also have issues when a scene have reflections in it, it can quickly die performance wise, when a scene is complicated in a way that causes the child rays to explode (which is not that hard to end up in btw) It also tends to cause more noise in the dark areas than Octane does. It also uses sRGB, not linear. Which is problematic, but you can fix that by setting the colorcorrection to 1/2.2 where needed (to compensate, but honestly???) And like Octane it doesn't fare well with complicated scenes for the same reasons. I've found that V-Ray more often than not, not only produces the best results, it is also quite often the fastest. LW render I don't really count, as it lacks the depth V-Ray offers. Especially when PBR is in the picture. It is simply too old. Also, the lack of VDB support is an issue. It [VDB] is going to be addressed, but until I have my hands on it.. it doesn't exist. But LW is very good at looking at scenes, and quickly set things up for testing. However, the same can be said about C4D. But again, the two are good at different things. LW native renderer is certainly both faster, and nicer than C4D which pretty much demands that you get VRay for it. Also it is significantly more expensive. You can get tools enough for a smaller studio by comparison, if you go the LW path.

hypersuperduper
11-13-2017, 09:04 AM
I just dont know why people consider lw something you would use in place of something else? Its dirt cheap. Use both.
In my case I need a Christmas tree to hang everything on for my game asset pipeline that has all the stuff you would need for animation and scene handling, modeler actually is just about right for the type of modeling I do and layout has worked very well for me as a “Christmas tree”. Generally you don’t want to swap out that part mid-project. Maya might be better objectively, particularly with its outstanding animation tools, but I don’t like having to rely on Mel scripts to do so many things particularly as I work on my own right now and don’t have access to a TD. I have used blender in that roll with good results too, but I genuinely prefer Lightwave, and I am so comfortable in it that I can usually solve any sort of weird production trouble I run into myself.

hrgiger
11-13-2017, 09:28 AM
Well im not talking about switching an app mid project., thats a whole other thing to consider. I just mean in general people waiting around for lw next talking about going to other apps. You should probably be doing that anyway.

tischbein3
11-13-2017, 09:56 AM
I just dont know why people consider lw something you would use in place of something else? Its dirt cheap. Use both.


exactly steve, exactly....in fact this perspective shift allows you to value certain parts in lw more
(and some less)... but anyhow, people seem to be fixiated that you instantly loose your abillity to use
your old software once you invest some time in the new one.

tischbein3
11-13-2017, 10:02 AM
@hrgiger - cos bouncing back and forth between packages is a pita. plus multiple users

But wouldn't it better and more fruitfully to lobby for better exchange towards other applications ? In fact wouldn't that strengthen
LW market shares much more ?

hypersuperduper
11-13-2017, 10:15 AM
better interchange would be great, but that depends on a new release, which is sort of what all this bellyaching is all about.

tischbein3
11-13-2017, 10:37 AM
You can also lobby those other companies ;)

jeric_synergy
11-13-2017, 11:06 AM
But wouldn't it better and more fruitfully to lobby for better exchange towards other applications ? In fact wouldn't that strengthen
LW market shares much more ?
It was my impression that was one big thing Rob Powers did: strengthen LW's interchange capabilities, because of his experiences on Avatar. He's a pipeline guy, for sure.

Assuming he's still in charge, I can't imagine him reducing that priority. Good interchange means that every other company is working for you.

Wickedpup
11-13-2017, 11:42 AM
Assuming he's still in charge......

Considering how difficult it is to answer such a basic question I have to assume he's not......

Norka
11-13-2017, 12:48 PM
@gar26lw :
... Octane while fast, suffers from being a GPU renderer. As soon as the scene is complicated, the updates (via data bus transfers) would quickly kill any speed benefits. It is good for smaller things...

Sorry, but are you using a paltry 480? a 560Ti?.. on a 1X PCIE?... Your description of Octane is completely out of whack with the typical Octane users' experience (that have capable beasts stuffed silly with GPUs)... Are you a licensed Octane user?.. Because you certainly don't sound like one... "Good for smaller things..." Effing please...

THIBAULT
11-13-2017, 01:22 PM
@gar26lw :

All renderers are good at different things. Octane while fast, suffers from being a GPU renderer. As soon as the scene is complicated, the updates (via data bus transfers) would quickly kill any speed benefits. It is good for smaller things, and it supports VDB too which is really nice.

Don't say this ! Is'nt real ! In our studio, we work on a big project with Octane and he's very fast and powerful. Of course, as always, you have to be serious ! 6 Titan X 12 GO is a good start !

lardbros
11-13-2017, 01:33 PM
The problem being since there are still so many unfixed bugs there's a fair likelihood that would have ended in "An error has occurred that may leave Modeler unstable..."
I find it maddening that we blindly accept software that doesn't work as advertised and yet do not accept it in any other product we buy at the store. No, I don't care how complicated software can be, they at lease need to make the attempt at fixing things. How many years have some bugs been around without being resolved?

Talking about Rounder? :)

It usually only does it under certain circumstances, like if there is an open edge, or you have more than one layer selected when you do the rounding.

Agree, it SHOULD work under all those circumstances, but alas, it doesn't :(

erikals
11-13-2017, 01:37 PM
looking forward to the Octane DeNoiser.


Talking about Rounder?
don't get me started... rounder was great... > in 1999

hypersuperduper
11-13-2017, 01:39 PM
Ah Rounder. What a piece of crap. At least it is consistenly bad. No surprises.

erikals
11-13-2017, 01:56 PM
consider LWcad Mass Round...
...or Maya/Max/Blender/C4D/Modo/Houdini

or the hack... run Chamfer > Twice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6USlala6Res

hrgiger
11-13-2017, 02:11 PM
https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/PowerfulImpressiveKatydid

hypersuperduper
11-13-2017, 02:34 PM
I use the double chamfer hack all the time. It’s weirdly great and super reliable.

MichaelT
11-13-2017, 02:42 PM
Sorry, but are you using a paltry 480? a 560Ti?.. on a 1X PCIE?... Your description of Octane is completely out of whack with the typical Octane users' experience (that have capable beasts stuffed silly with GPUs)... Are you a licensed Octane user?.. Because you certainly don't sound like one... "Good for smaller things..." Effing please...

Oh so now I'm a pirate.. because you are of a different opinion. That is quite childish.

I have a i6900K, 128Gb ram, GTX 1080 8gb, with full licenses of every single application I have ever mentioned. And it is easy to max Octane out. If you don't think so.. then you simply haven't made anything heavy. And I know full well you can sit on a stack of GPUs.. but you can likewise sit on a stack of CPUs. I'm simply saying that GPUs have a benefit in the beginning.. but as the complexity grows. and it takes more time to update the GPU (which in turn usually means shader updates) its benefits will flatten out.

erikals
11-13-2017, 02:44 PM
I use the double chamfer hack all the time. It’s weirdly great and super reliable.
yes, does require lots of re-selection though if trigons are created in the first cycle of Chamfering

mostly works, however a drag when it doesn't.

MichaelT
11-13-2017, 02:45 PM
Don't say this ! Is'nt real ! In our studio, we work on a big project with Octane and he's very fast and powerful. Of course, as always, you have to be serious ! 6 Titan X 12 GO is a good start !

:) Updating the GPU takes time.. you know this. Hmmm... wonder if you've compared with using V-Ray? Either way.. I never said it is slow.. I said as the complexity grows, the speed benefits flatten out.

gamedesign1
11-13-2017, 02:47 PM
https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/PowerfulImpressiveKatydid

I really love Modo for modelling, I just can't afford it at the moment. Wish there was a cheaper version.

hrgiger
11-13-2017, 02:56 PM
I really love Modo for modelling, I just can't afford it at the moment. Wish there was a cheaper version.

Modo indie?

erikals
11-13-2017, 03:00 PM
an example on Double Chamfer Hack failin' >

https://i.imgur.com/9EjeTZV.gif

Norka
11-13-2017, 03:25 PM
Oh so now I'm a pirate.. because you are of a different opinion. That is quite childish.

I have a i6900K, 128Gb ram, GTX 1080 8gb, with full licenses of every single application I have ever mentioned. And it is easy to max Octane out. If you don't think so.. then you simply haven't made anything heavy. And I know full well you can sit on a stack of GPUs.. but you can likewise sit on a stack of CPUs. I'm simply saying that GPUs have a benefit in the beginning.. but as the complexity grows. and it takes more time to update the GPU (which in turn usually means shader updates) its benefits will flatten out.

Calm down sunshine. I wasn't saying you were a pirate. I was saying you have only dabbled with a demo, if that, and thus was calling you a non-licensed-Octane-user... And still am.

MichaelT
11-13-2017, 03:29 PM
Calm down sunshine. I wasn't saying you were a pirate. I was saying you have only dabbled with a demo, if that, and thus was calling you a non-licensed-Octane-user... And still am.

Well, you'd be wrong.

Norka
11-13-2017, 03:33 PM
Okay, so you have been an Octane user since May 28, 2016 7:21 am... Let's just say we are both wrong. I have been using Octane for LW for five years. Done almost nothing but heavy scenes. :-P

erikals
11-13-2017, 03:33 PM
doesn't calling someone a non-licensed-Octane-user, imply the person is using piracy software ?
sure sounds like it. glad that wasn't the case.

anyway, Octane is great. think most of us agree to that.

Marander
11-13-2017, 03:40 PM
I use the double chamfer hack all the time. It’s weirdly great and super reliable.

Yeah Rounder is a horrible tool. But instead of fixing it, LW developers create a new tool (Chamfer, which seems to be more stable but only limited to a very basic function). This should all be in just one tool combined (Bevel). LWCAD Rounder is better but also has issues (specially since 5.0).

The same applies to the countless half baked tools like SmoothShift, Bandsaw, Knife, Julienne, ExtendPlus, all the confusing edge tools etc etc.

The double chamfer 'hack' makes a mess out of the geo when using on more complex selections in my opinion.

How would you choose diffetent mitering option (the way rounding is applied) or profiles / shapes, subdivisions, limits, solid mode for subd models etc. Not even to mention non-destructive beveling / rounding.

modo 11.2 also just got an improved Bevel tool (but that took surprisingly long).

In a current software it should work like in these 4 year old videos:

https://vimeo.com/72001109
https://youtu.be/jqhTddRFlB0

(Note how nice it works with Symmetry in the first video and on SubD models in the second video using the Uniform option)

But yeah it was mentioned several times, Modeler is tech from the last millennium.

Man, how many times Modeler crashed when I did simple operations. The non-working undo messing up my model. Or the tedious clicking on tiny fore and background dots to enable/disable layers while modeling (for simple models it's ok but not when dealing with 30-40 layers). The missing precision because there is no snapping. Pressing Tab when only a part of the mesh is selected. Forgetting VPR is enabled when synching the model to Layout and crashing the software. Or losing complex selections by clicking on the background ( probably the most annoying one and got at least half way fixed in 2015). LW is useless to me in the current form anyway because it's not displaying properly on high res screens. Waste of money and time.

And still some users claim LW Modeler is the quickest or easiest modelling software.

Norka
11-13-2017, 03:42 PM
doesn't calling someone a non-licensed-Octane-user, imply the person is using piracy software ?
sure sounds like it. glad that wasn't the case.

anyway, Octane is great. think most of us agree to that.

Not you too! Let's not split fuggin' hairs gentlemen. I didn't mean to say that he was a non-Octane-licenesed-user-kind-of-guy-who-is-a-pirate, but rather a non-user-who-tried-Octane-once-or-twice-kind-of-guy.... Okay so I was wrong. He is wrong... Let's all sing the wrong song.... :-P

Vong
11-13-2017, 03:48 PM
Let's all sing the wrong song.... :-P

Okay! How does it go? :D

MichaelT
11-13-2017, 03:50 PM
Okay, so you have been an Octane user since May 28, 2016 7:21 am... Let's just say we are both wrong. I have been using Octane for LW for five years. Done almost nothing but heavy scenes. :-P

I've been an octane user for longer than that. The first time I've used it was when it was still called Brigade. But I think we both agree it is a great tool... Still, at least I recognize it's limitations. I'm happy you haven't found them I suppose.

Just to be clear... I don't mean the Brigade they have in dev.

hypersuperduper
11-13-2017, 03:54 PM
I don’t really mind having multiple similar tools like chamfer and rounder. I think having one tool with too many settings can bog down a workflow. Particularly if the app doesn’t allow the user to save settings as presets. I agree that smart tool consolidation is good, but sometimes a dead simple tool like chamfer is great. It’s like the difference between having a philips head and a flathead screwdriver vs an electric screwdriver with multiple bits. The additional complexity of changing bits can be a time sink if you aren’t screwing in lots of the same type of screw. ...But rounder is inexcusable.

ncr100
11-13-2017, 04:16 PM
I have divined LW3DG's secret activity using science:

core → bore → bort → boat → beat → neat → next

I think we are at 'beat'.

Marander
11-13-2017, 04:19 PM
I agree that smart tool consolidation is good, but sometimes a dead simple tool like chamfer is great.

Yes you got a point there, specially when using shortcuts. But that would actually be the best solution, a universal tool that can be used with different shortcuts.

Snosrap
11-13-2017, 05:40 PM
...But rounder is inexcusable.

Yes it is. But in NT's defense they did reach out to Richard Brak to see if he could fix it up. NT couldn't make heads or tails of the mess and Richard didn't want anything to do with it anymore. Options - pull it out or leave it in for those few circumstances where it does get the job done.

jeric_synergy
11-13-2017, 07:46 PM
I use the double chamfer hack all the time. It’s weirdly great and super reliable.

Man, what a tease.


Yes it is. But in NT's defense they did reach out to Richard Brak to see if he could fix it up. NT couldn't make heads or tails of the mess and Richard didn't want anything to do with it anymore. Options - pull it out or leave it in for those few circumstances where it does get the job done.
Rounder....it's not good. But if you allow for its (many) shortcomings, like ONLY do one side of a thing at a time, it's OK. I had to use it the other day, and in small doses it works a treat.

Just like trying to use ALIGN on an entire object is often pointless, but if you work in patches, it does the job.

I will say that I was quite disappointed in Multishift, now it seems clunky and dumb. I used to like it. But it smacks of the comment above : " one tool with too many settings can bog down a workflow. "

jperk
11-14-2017, 12:54 AM
What LWNext conversations here are starting to sound like...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LTJlOGrMsQ

Luc_Feri
11-14-2017, 04:54 AM
LW chokes heavy scenes

MODO really chokes heavy scenes.

SOLO guy, one workstation wanted to do animation, fps for render on either native render engine sucks, virtually unpractical. He only does stills now.

Octane = Suddenly I can imagine actually knocking out some animation, for real, ha, fps render time acceptable, great for SOLO guy one GPU, good times, thanks Octane.

samurai_x
11-14-2017, 05:18 AM
My biggest fear is for LightWave Next to be released and be met with a chorus of "is this it, is this what we have waited all this time for!" My worry is that we get something faster with a few goodies but looks and feels like 15.3 and no modeller update.



Frankly, no modelling tools in layout at this point in time would be disappointing.
Sorry, this long silence and around 5 to 7 years they supposedly worked on the core architecture of lightwave, they have to show more than a cpu renderer and a deformer stack.
Other appz are just so far ahead.

I hope they fire the person in charge of the gag order. I hope that person is reading the forums. Its that persons fault customers are leaving more than the lack of modern workflow in lightwave. :D

They fired the person in charge of LWCORE, they should fire the person who is ordering the gag order.

hrgiger
11-14-2017, 05:47 AM
Well get ready for disappointment because there wont be modeling tools in layout in lightwave next.

Luc_Feri
11-14-2017, 05:59 AM
Smith Micro just had a store wide sale with end date.

Then that end date was extended a few more days.

I go on today, Poser on Sale, another big sale sell off.

Get it LW3DG, Sale after sale that ends or extends and then another restarts = I associate with tacky cheap desperate software companies who need money badly.

I didn't want you to fall into this group, that is all I ever wanted to say to you. 2015 I saw, sale after sale. I bought at $100 off 2015 upgrade. Literally once that ended another appeared, with 3rd powers bundles and stuff. I was actually pretty p****d off that happened, tough buyers choice people will say. I say nonsense it annoys folk with the regularity at which these sales come and go, you make informed decisions to upgrade, you end up disatisfied, you wish you had waited. If it happens six month down the line, hey no problem. When it happens the week after you feel mugged off completely.

Then the rest is history, LW Next or whatever announced in September, then same SmithMicro tactics applied, I put you in the tacky software bracket after that. :D

gamedesign1
11-14-2017, 06:15 AM
Smith Micro just had a store wide sale with end date.

Then that end date was extended a few more days.

I go on today, Poser on Sale, another big sale sell off.

Get it LW3DG, Sale after sale that ends or extends and then another restarts = I associate with tacky cheap desperate software companies who need money badly.

I didn't want you to fall into this group, that is all I ever wanted to say to you. 2015 I saw, sale after sale. I bought at $100 off 2015 upgrade. Literally once that ended another appeared, with 3rd powers bundles and stuff. I was actually pretty p****d off that happened, tough buyers choice people will say. I say nonsense it annoys folk with the regularity at which these sales come and go, you make informed decisions to upgrade, you end up disatisfied, you wish you had waited. If it happens six month down the line, hey no problem. When it happens the week after you feel mugged off completely.

Then the rest is history, LW Next or whatever announced in September, then same SmithMicro tactics applied, I put you in the tacky software bracket after that. :D

If LWNext fails I hope they are planning to still support 2015.3 and fix bugs etc (i have a feeling they won't), especially for all those people that they enticed into buying it via that recent offer to obviously raise a bit more cash. Otherwise people will have wasted their money on something unsupported and broken.

I bought 2015.3 about 2 years ago and I am still waiting for them to fix things. And heres the bit I hate the most, to get those things fixed I will have to pay more to get the next version. Things like that really bug me.

The Dommo
11-14-2017, 07:03 AM
I can't help but harbor a desire for Blackmagic to buy LW3DG....

Norka
11-14-2017, 07:07 AM
That has been my hope for some time. It would be perfect. And it would make a ton of sense business-wise, and would be a perfect explanation of these shenanigans....

ianr
11-14-2017, 07:52 AM
I can't help but harbor a desire for Blackmagic to buy LW3DG....


Yeah, And bring back Rony Soussan to helm (CEO ) -FusionWave NeXT it !

VonBon
11-14-2017, 10:08 AM
I'm sure there's someone out there anticipating the shitstorm that will happen when the word is finally out...wondering who's gonna take the beating this time. Rob's gone.

Rob got fired?

safetyman
11-14-2017, 10:19 AM
In order for me to upgrade to "Next" (or Core 2.0 as I like to call it), I will need:

-Built-in sculpting tools, nothing as robust as Zbrush, but I do touch-ups to existing models all the time.
-A non-destructive workflow (think modifiers that don't permanently alter the model)
-A free plugin that renders out vector format.
-An integrated environment so that I don't have to deal with the Hub-thingy crashing all the time. Deal breaker.
-A built in real-time render engine as an option -- ok, ok, so I don't really "need" that, but still.

<Strolls back under the bridge, waiting>

jperk
11-14-2017, 10:37 AM
Better stick with Blender for now. Modo was basically the rewrite of LW's code that Newtek refused to do years ago. Maybe some LWavers are still butthurt over Modo. Don't see why considering Brad Peebler, Allen Hastings and Stuart Ferguson left Newtek to do something that should of been done w/ LW ages ago.

Never have used Modo, but I always heard it's very similar to Lightwave via hotkeys, etc. Plus, Modo just overall gives LW vibes. Modo evolves from LW's code does it not? Essentially, Modo has always been LWNext. Even LWCore was looking a bit Modo.

Only thing I've heard LW does better than Modo is Rendering speeds and maybe animation? I'd imagine Modo is more developed in that area as well, especially with the recent release.

I've got my eyes on Blender2.8. Interface seems to be updated and looks very Modo-ish. Blender isn't terrible to model in, but I do much prefer LW or even Maya's interface. I modeled Classic Sonic in blender after my Maya courses a while back to try out different 3dsoftware (Maya was the first I learned). Did a little bit of rigging but never finished the rig.

138556138557

Maybe LW would be better off in the hands of BlackmagicDesign. Perhaps a free edition with the LW essentials (or make LW Modeler free at least) and a paid version for the more advanced features and Layout. Really digging Resolve.

SBowie
11-14-2017, 11:04 AM
Better stick with Blender for now. Modo was basically the rewrite of LW's code that Newtek refused to do years ago. Maybe some LWavers are still butthurt over Modo. Don't see why considering Brad Peebler, Allen Hastings and Stuart Ferguson left Newtek to do something that should of been done w/ LW ages ago.With all due respect, you don't really have the first clue about what you are characterizing in such a facile manner. Even the principals who were actually involved generally steer clear of these matters, and with good reason.

All of this went down long before you appeared here - and since it is often inappropriate and unethical to bandy about one-sided, hearsay-based versions of matters about which very, very few actually know all the details (and even those few would clearly be biased in one or the other direction), I'm going to curtail this aspect of this discussion right here.

Let's leave dead horses where they lie. (In case there's any doubt, this is not a 'suggestion'.)

meatycheesyboy
11-14-2017, 11:25 AM
In order for me to upgrade to "Next" (or Core 2.0 as I like to call it), I will need:

-Built-in sculpting tools, nothing as robust as Zbrush, but I do touch-ups to existing models all the time.
-A non-destructive workflow (think modifiers that don't permanently alter the model)
-A free plugin that renders out vector format.
-An integrated environment so that I don't have to deal with the Hub-thingy crashing all the time. Deal breaker.
-A built in real-time render engine as an option -- ok, ok, so I don't really "need" that, but still.

<Strolls back under the bridge, waiting>

Just because uninformed speculation is fun, I'm going to weigh in on the likelihood of these things happening.

Sculpting tools - Maybe but I have a feeling that if they are in there they'll be in their infancy at best.
Modifiers stack - I think this has a good chance of making it in but again it'll be in it's infancy.
Vector renderer - While I'd love to see this, I don't think it's on many people's radar so I'm going with not gonna happen.
Integrated app - This is the trillion dollar question... not touching it with a 100 mile long pole.
Real-time renderer - I expect we'll see a beefed up VPR but I don't think we'll see a full blown real time rendering engine.

In some ways I wonder if the development of Next has become a bit like the remodeling of my living room. We really only needed to rewire the room but instead we ended up tearing it down to studs because we fell victim to the whole "well since we're doing this we might as well go a step further and do this but if we that we should probably do this..." and on and on. And as a result we've been living without lights in the biggest room in our house for almost a year.

jperk
11-14-2017, 11:26 AM
Just basing my opinion on what I've gathered from other members here.

Also, there is no denying that LW has slipped in terms of relevance. Don't mistaken me I'm not saying artists can't make LW relevant within their distinctive pipelines, but within the industry itself — LW has fallen behind into a niche status quo. Clients aren't happy considering what I've been reading in threads here at the Newtek forums.

138560

hypersuperduper
11-14-2017, 11:37 AM
That chart makes literally no sense.

MichaelT
11-14-2017, 11:40 AM
@jperk: There probably is a "why", but in the end it doesn't really matter. It is so long ago they left (2001 I think) well before any talks along the lines of "core" was on the table. But I digress.. what I really want to say, is that people tend to leave after having worked in one place for a (in their case.. very) long time.

jperk
11-14-2017, 11:40 AM
It's based on user reviews.
https://www.g2crowd.com/categories/3d-modeling


@jperk: There probably is a "why", but in the end it doesn't really matter. It is so long ago they left (2001 I think) well before any talks along the lines of "core" was on the table. But I digress.. what I really want to say, is that people tend to leave after having worked in one place for a (in their case.. very) long time.

The fact Newtek rebuked a LW-rewrite was probably one factor of many to leave and evolve.

SBowie
11-14-2017, 11:42 AM
Just basing my opinion on what I've gathered from other members here. Might be a good idea not to authoritatively post as fact opinions based on other people's speculations then.


Also, there is no denying that LW has slipped in terms of relevance.I didn't write anything about that, though. I'm taking issue with your simplistic characterization of historical events, not your perception of the current status.

MichaelT
11-14-2017, 11:48 AM
It's based on user reviews.
https://www.g2crowd.com/categories/3d-modeling



The fact Newtek rebuked a LW-rewrite was probably one factor of many to leave and evolve.

Its (g2crowd.com) statistics is based in the tens of people. You need at least a few thousand before such things become anywhere near relevant. I wouldn't put too much weight in such things.

SBowie
11-14-2017, 11:49 AM
The fact Newtek rebuked a LW-rewrite was probably one factor of many to leave and evolve.And you know this how? Were you there? Involved? Seen the secret videotapes? Or have you heard this from someone who heard it from someone.

Even in the case of a first person account, without a full hearing wherein all participants have a chance to face their accusers and present evidence and witnesses, there is virtually no chance that you'll be in possession of a true account ... which begs the question, why repeat something so clearly baseless.

I'm not going to make this point again.

jperk
11-14-2017, 11:55 AM
Yes, the secret videotape inscribed, "My Opinion." Nobody is inclined to agree or disagree with it.

hrgiger
11-14-2017, 11:58 AM
Well even though jperk wasnt around when brad, allen, and stuart (and others) left, many of us were. And without going into the whys or whats of that situation which would clearly go against steve bowies rule and not a suggestion, i can tell since that time, NT hasnt done jack squat for modeling in LightWave and the people who left did so at least i got my rewritten modeler.

hypersuperduper
11-14-2017, 12:03 PM
You call magic bevel jack squat!?!?!??
Full disclosure, I don’t know when that tool appeared.

hrgiger
11-14-2017, 12:14 PM
Haha good one. I think it came in lw 7. Its also in modo and think with even more features.

SBowie
11-14-2017, 12:16 PM
Well even though jperk wasnt around when brad, allen, and stuart (and others) left, many of us were.And it is equally true in that case that the underlying facts are a matter of speculation at best, and best left un-discussed here for that reason. (In my personal experience, those with the least scruples are generally quickest to air their version of matters like this, knowing that others will not stoop to it.)


i can tell since that time, NT hasnt done jack squat for modeling in LightWave and the people who left did so at least i got my rewritten modeler.I can't agree that there have been absolutely zero modeling advances in the last 15 years or so, but would not quibble that Modeler hasn't seen a lot of love. I don't think you can properly draw a direct line between these matters, however (e.g., I can easily imagine other reasons for the Modo crew concentrating on modeling, and for its somewhat languishing in LW).

Nevertheless, if you feel that LW modeling has suffered since that long ago split, I've no argument with your posting that. Decisions and events have consequences, and there is be nothing inherently unfair about implying that the split undoubtedly led to some negative repercussions. I do draw the line at attempts to characterize the basis for the parting of ways.

raymondtrace
11-14-2017, 12:21 PM
It's based on user reviews...

No. Not really. It's all nonsense.

Take a look at a comparative CMS analysis that includes Videolan (VLC) and Adobe Acrobat Reader as CMS tools.
https://www.g2crowd.com/categories/cms-tools

This jumped out at me as I was just looking at a Gartner magic quadrant graphic the other day for CMS. It looked nothing like G2's nonsense.

The great thing about the internet is that any idiot can find another idiot's infographic to support an idiotic concept.

jperk
11-14-2017, 12:25 PM
Got to love the internet where no opinion or argument matters.

hypersuperduper
11-14-2017, 12:33 PM
Also. It doesn’t make any sense. Satisfaction and market share. Ok. Two metrics that can be measured (sort of). But niche and contender and leader and performer? What the heck!? How does an app that has poor satisfaction and high market share equal contender? That chart looks like a neural network tried to make a power point presentation.

Marander
11-14-2017, 12:52 PM
Today's modeling news: http://moi3d.com/beta.htm

"V4 is a major rewrite with changes on many levels so please be on the lookout for any bugs."

Norka
11-14-2017, 12:59 PM
jperk, I have been under the impression that you are a young, wide-eyed, budding artist who is just starting out, and have been hanging around here looking for tips, advice, etc... Now all of the sudden you're some seasoned pro who has a deep profound knowledge and understanding all things LW, and even Newtek's history?... You, more than many others here, have better things to be doing with your time... Go work on your 3D skills son.

jperk
11-14-2017, 01:09 PM
Thanks Dad I'll get on it

sadkkf
11-14-2017, 01:38 PM
If it's true NewTek or LW3G ran into a showstopper of some kind preventing them from releasing Next, then I am more than ever willing to wait for it, remaining loyal to them. I'd suspect whatever the holdup is it came from nowhere and they'd want to release it, but need to deal with whatever first. Again, that's just me.

adk
11-14-2017, 03:25 PM
...Let's leave dead horses where they lie. (In case there's any doubt, this is not a 'suggestion'.)

That gave me visions of Steve, our regular forum Wyatt, turn into Doc Holliday :D ... from Tombstone

SBowie
11-14-2017, 03:43 PM
More of a Matt Dillon type. :)

adk
11-14-2017, 05:11 PM
More of a Matt Dillon type. :)

Ok , but was he ever a sheriff ? :)

jeric_synergy
11-14-2017, 05:43 PM
Only thing I've heard LW does better than Modo is Rendering speeds and maybe animation?
Oh, is THAT all? :eyeroll:

+: it's been so many revisions since the original coders left, for both sides (except LWM ;) ) I think we can safely feel they are different apps and move on.

jperk
11-14-2017, 05:50 PM
Oh, is THAT all? :eyeroll:

+: it's been so many revisions since the original coders left, for both sides (except LWM ;) ) I think we can safely feel they are different apps and move on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFd102JgJrg

Surrealist.
11-14-2017, 06:33 PM
Just basing my opinion on what I've gathered from other members here.

In would say you had it pretty spot on. Especially the butt hurt part.

As you now know really hurts apparently and you as some new guy are an easy target for that misguided frustration.

The only thing I would disagree with is the code part. I would say design ideas rather than code. But that is splitting hairs at this point.

I my opinion the particulars don't matter. I know a guy is dead. He is lying there. Gun shot wound to the head. Police confirm. He is dead by gunshot.

I don't need to know anything else to surmise he is dead. I don't need to even know if he was murdered much less the motive to make the decision. He's dead.

And likewise we don't need to know the particulars here.

2 reasons.

In hindsight LightWave should have been redeveloped all the way starting back at the split. Why it wasn't does not matter. And the past can't be changed. But the difficulties faced over the last decade and the predictable solution to start over confirm. In hindsight.

Second. All we can say is that now LightWave is finally getting what it needs. And the prediction of effort and time needed can be calculated from 2009 forward.

Conveniently we have a yard stick for this in Modo.

Apparently more people are afraid of it being used to inflict pain rather than what it was intended to me used for.

A measuring stick.

jperk
11-14-2017, 07:48 PM
Exactly. There is a rising interest to pursue a career in the 3D industry and honestly LW isn't attracting that crowd. At my university, in my animation courses — literally none of the students know what Lightwave is.This is a big problem. Also, Newtek is charging $299 for educational versions when every other company is distributing student versions for FREE.

Surrealist.
11-14-2017, 07:59 PM
lol... dude. Prepare to be roasted.

I would not necessarily put it in that light. I mean there is no reason to take it so negatively. On either side. It is just what it is. LightWave needed to get redeveloped and it happened too late.

I do agree that some people have the misguided vision for LightWave that it is fine as it is, and little fundamental change is needed. Particularly with Modeler and the split app issue.

I don't have an issue with these people's artistic choices.

But if we are talking on the broad stage of state-of-the-art. Then we need to be having a discussion that is less self-centered and myopic.

The all-too-often-used excuse or retort: "You are just trying to make LightWave like every other app.", does not hold water at all. And diffuses the issue.

However, that all said, If I were you JPerk, I would choose my words carefully.

And yeah. I am old enough to be your dad. That should be considered a good thing when it comes to advice.

jperk
11-14-2017, 08:04 PM
William Vaughan even said LW has no relevance. He is strictly Modo now. Maybe that's why there are no books on LW2015.

I invested in LW2015 educational version this past summer with hopes to upgrade to commercial when Next rolled around. No tutorials or anything on LW2015. Everyone at the forums at the time were all expecting Next to release within a couple weeks or a month. This pushed me more to purchase. Also, I purchased a book covering older LWversion9 because that is what was recommended.

It doesn't even matter anymore. I'm learning Zbrush and I'll just surrender to Autodesk and cough up $30 when I need to rig and animate. Probably makes the most sense given that I paid for courses to learn Maya.

I was pissed Autodesk no longer offered a perceptual license for Maya LT — so I rebelled against the subscription costs and looked elsewhere.

Surrealist.
11-14-2017, 08:19 PM
So what are you looking for? Some kind of confirmation?

The only person relevance of any software matters to, is you. And that is it.

Unless you are a writer and you are going to make an article on software or write a book or be a journalist, none of this banter should be anything you are even remotely interested in as an artist.

Complete waste of energy and time.

You want to talk technical facts, and discuss the future of LightWave and where it needs to go, that is one thing. But you are barking up the wrong tree here otherwise.

Really. I will leave it at that... son.. :D

jperk
11-14-2017, 08:21 PM
You want to talk technical facts, and discuss the future of LightWave and where it needs to go, that is one thing. But you are barking up the wrong tree here otherwise.

Really. I will leave it at that... son.. :D

Dad, I did not start this discussion regarding LW's future. I am only contributing to it and the many similar threads regarding this matter.

And instead of sticking up for it in hopes that I'd be securing my investment — I now see the clearer picture of this whole ordeal. It's looking kind of shady too.

I'm not going to be a chip off the old block. I'm retiring from these forums.

Surrealist.
11-14-2017, 09:13 PM
OK son. I use LightWave when and if I need it. Blender, Maya LT, MotionBuilder, Maya full version. Modo is on my radar. Zbrush of course. Substance and other stuff.

You. You use whatever software suits you. You feel you were burned by NewTek. Fine. I don't blame you. But if I were you, I would be very careful about inciting flame wars and using wording like wet dream and calling LightWave users a bunch of old Star Trek fans. None of these guys are responsible for your actions.

You feel burned. Take it up with NewTek.

Being choosey about software is one thing. Spreading ill will towards others who have done nothing to you is another entirely.

jperk
11-14-2017, 09:19 PM
I'm retired.

Surrealist.
11-14-2017, 10:00 PM
lol...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-hc79-tAiU

hypersuperduper
11-14-2017, 11:43 PM
I always thought lightwave users were old Babylon 5 fans. Star Trek is for normies.

bazsa73
11-15-2017, 01:15 AM
Oh dear...

rustythe1
11-15-2017, 01:26 AM
OK son. I use LightWave when and if I need it. Blender, Maya LT, MotionBuilder, Maya full version. Modo is on my radar. Zbrush of course. Substance and other stuff.

You. You use whatever software suits you. You feel you were burned by NewTek. Fine. I don't blame you. But if I were you, I would be very careful about inciting flame wars and using wording like wet dream and calling LightWave users a bunch of old Star Trek fans. None of these guys are responsible for your actions.

You feel burned. Take it up with NewTek.

Being choosey about software is one thing. Spreading ill will towards others who have done nothing to you is another entirely.

he shouldn't feel burned, he stated he was told not to upgrade to a full licence a while back as sales told him "Next" was coming soon and the upgrade price would be lower, he then said he asked for a refund on the educational version after that,
and no tutorials for 2015? https://www.lightwave3d.com/learn/?page=1 about 100 free ones here i count, liberty3d have some, Adam Gibson,
and i think you may be miss quoting William, that was a comment from another user and it was not that Lightwave is not relevant, it was that if you want a job with a big employer in that industry its probably not relevant and you would limit yourself, if you work for yourself, everything is relevant if it gets the job done and works for you.

samurai_x
11-15-2017, 01:36 AM
Well get ready for disappointment because there wont be modeling tools in layout in lightwave next.

Well that's my expectation at this point. 5 to 7 years since lw 10 came out after the disastrous LWCORE at which point I think they were working with lw 11 and updating the core architecture. I hope that wasn't BS.
If I'm disappointed that's fine its easy to drop software for me. Dropped modo already. Easy to come back as long as the licensing is not crazy restricted.

jperk
11-15-2017, 01:45 AM
i think you may be miss quoting William, that was a comment from another user ...

No.

138573

tyrot
11-15-2017, 01:53 AM
William had another issue i believe .. probably with management. A Lightwave evangalist SUDDENLY discovered Modo after many many years and got excited about it..

hrgiger
11-15-2017, 01:58 AM
Well that's my expectation at this point. 5 to 7 years since lw 10 came out after the disastrous LWCORE at which point I think they were working with lw 11 and updating the core architecture. I hope that wasn't BS.
If I'm disappointed that's fine its easy to drop software for me. Dropped modo already. Easy to come back as long as the licensing is not crazy restricted.

Well Rob already stated in a previous blog post that Modeler tool development work hasn't begun. And they haven't hired a modeling engineer yet even though they have had a modeling position open for years. I'm just letting you know you probably shouldn't get your hopes up about having modeling tools in Layout for the next version.

Adam Gibson tutorials are really not good, I would really not recommend them to anyone. There's a reason he often sells them for $5.

@John Perkins, I would not recommend you waste your time with Lightwave, your really better off with something else. If money were not an issue that would be one thing but as a student looking to land a job somewhere, its not worth your time to mess around with. William Vaughan is right, the atmosphere around the LW and its community has become too toxic.

rustythe1
11-15-2017, 01:59 AM
No.

138573

see, that's what i said, miss quoted, he said not relevant for him, you said lightwave is not relevant full stop

tyrot
11-15-2017, 02:04 AM
William Vaughan is right, the atmosphere around the LW and its community has become too toxic.

somehow you need this toxic environment :) confess it ... it is ok.

rustythe1
11-15-2017, 02:11 AM
William Vaughan is right, the atmosphere around the LW and its community has become too toxic.

yes, its a shame, and it seems to be concentrated at this forum as the facebook pages are full of a lot more positivity and good work, the only reason i still hang around is when it finally lands this is where it will be announced first i guess, although ill assume ill get an email first anyway,

Chris S. (Fez)
11-15-2017, 02:29 AM
No.

138573

William said LW is not relevant for him. He has embraced Modo and has a vested interest in Modo's success. Great. More power to him. His Modo plug-ins are exceptional tools born from production...at an exceptional value.

Lightwave is down, not out. It is owned and developed by a private company with a rich history of empowering artists.

Lightwave is a perfectly capable program for many projects. Modo is great and includes a marketing team committed to selling seats and welcoming new members to the community. For mysterious reasons, Lightwave marketing is in limbo while development supposedly continues.

In any case, it is foolish to count out Newtek or to burn bridges here or anywhere. But, yes, the damage due to the delay and silence is unmistakeable.

hypersuperduper
11-15-2017, 02:29 AM
internet forums are the best! All the fun parts about fighting with your spouse about dishes without having to sleep on the couch afterwards.

Hail
11-15-2017, 02:57 AM
No.

138573

Modo is also irrelevant if you are looking at the broader market.
Maya and Max are still king. C4D and Houdini also have a place and probably rule the indie market now.
Moving from lw to modo is a mistake unless all you want to do is build static meshes.

hrgiger
11-15-2017, 03:08 AM
see, that's what i said, miss quoted, he said not relevant for him, you said lightwave is not relevant full stop

And thats what he will say. Publicly.

samurai_x
11-15-2017, 05:05 AM
Well Rob already stated in a previous blog post that Modeler tool development work hasn't begun.

That was a while back can't even recall when.
Its almost 2018. If they can't do it then I have no confidence this current team can do anything besides a renderer update.

Unified environment or Bust!