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tomhorn
10-28-2017, 06:40 PM
Hi there

I use a TCXD40 since a long time and now I'm mainly working on a TCXD8000 with three additional AVID Artist Mix to control the audio faders. And since years I'm missing one important feature: the PFL (Pre-Fade-Listening). I know that there was an intense discussion in 2012 between Russ and Steve about this feature (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?128170-Audio-Scrubbing-amp-PreFade-Listen-(PFL)). Then I really agreed with Russ that this is very important for working in Broadcast environments. On every of my mixing consoles in the last 20 years of Broadcasting (Radio and TV) there was a PFL. But unfortunately this request was never implemented to the TriCaster. Since years I wanted to follow up this request. So I'm asking again and I hope, you could improve my beloved TCXD8000 (and the other models).

The reason is the following workflow: We're in a fast-paced live show and my sound engineer or I would quickly check if a microphone sounds proper, if the Video clip has audio or if a caller via phone is still in the line all this while continuing mixing the sources. Normally we can just press a PFL button and have the loudspeaker or headphones switched to the pre-fade-signal of the desired source. That means, after one second I already know that everything's O.k. and I'm back in the live show. But with the TriCasters that won't work. Here I have to mute the source first, then open the fader and push the Solo button, followed by the reverse procedure, which takes at least five seconds and a lot of unnecessary hand movements. In the meantime I'm flying blind the show. I know, sometimes the Solo function is great, but in 90% of my demands I would prefer the PFL instead of the Solo (AFL) for exactly these applications.

Please, please, could you consider this PFL function as an additional option? For me it would be best if I could toggle in the audio tab between Solo and PFL, so that the Solo buttons on my Artist Mix work as PFL buttons. I think this shouldn't be too complicated to implement (just define that the audio is routed to the headphones output before the fader instead of after the fader. That would really help me and all my sound engineers a lot. Most of them were shocked that this isn't possible and don't like to work with my setup because of that :-(

Thank you very much!

Thomas

JPulera
10-30-2017, 12:05 PM
Hi Thomas,

Why not create simple macros to automate the process? No mouse or fumbling required.

Thanks

tomhorn
11-01-2017, 11:25 AM
Hi Thomas,

Why not create simple macros to automate the process? No mouse or fumbling required.

Thanks

Hi Jeff

I want to have my sound engineer working just on the AVID Artist Mix surface, no mouse, keyboard or anything else. So if he pushes the Solo button of a channel on the Artist Mix panel it should affect a PFL instead of a Solo in the TriCaster. I think that is not possible with a macro, or am I wrong? Is there a way to define the EUCON command Solo to mute the channel and open the fader to 0dB? I've got the Standard Edition of the TCXD8000.

Thanks,

Thomas

JPulera
11-01-2017, 02:43 PM
Hi Thomas,

I don't have an strong audio background, so honestly I was unfamiliar with PFL when I first saw your post. Also have not used Avid with TriCaster. What I do know pretty well are macros in TriCaster and I've been able to use them to do a LOT of powerful things for myself and my customers.

If you were to get an Xkeys panel for instance, like pictured:

138427

...then maybe the keys correspond to the audio mixer inputs in TriCaster (and you can insert your own key labels of course) and the top row keys are MUTE and lower is SOLO? Xkeys can be programmed to send separate commands for PRESS and RELEASE of the key, so for instance PRESS turns solo ON and RELEASE turns solo OFF. A momentary switch. Or maybe you don't need two rows, just a 16-key unit and one key does both MUTE and SOLO. I perhaps don't fully understand what exactly you need to happen, but I bet it can happen with macros.

Thanks

tomhorn
11-01-2017, 03:24 PM
If you were to get an Xkeys panel for instance, like pictured:
...then maybe the keys correspond to the audio mixer inputs in TriCaster (and you can insert your own key labels of course) and the top row keys are MUTE and lower is SOLO? Xkeys can be programmed to send separate commands for PRESS and RELEASE of the key, so for instance PRESS turns solo ON and RELEASE turns solo OFF. A momentary switch. Or maybe you don't need two rows, just a 16-key unit and one key does both MUTE and SOLO. I perhaps don't fully understand what exactly you need to happen, but I bet it can happen with macros.

Thanks

Hi Jeff

Thanks for your suggestion. I already use different types of X-Keys and Tipro keyboards for my TriCasters, and they are very useful mainly for video switching and DDR/GFX commands:
138431

But for audio purposes I need a surface with faders and buttons, like every sound mixer. So after years of using an external mixer I bought three AVID Artist Mix panels which allow remote access of the built-in audio mixer.
138432

That works pretty well, but as I said we really need the PFL function for broadcast purposes. Imagine you have this 24 fader console in front of you, and if you want to listen to a channel via PFL you have to search the correspondent input on an additional X-Keys panel beside the Artist Mix. That won't work in a stressful live production, it's very error-prone. The only solution is to qucikly push the solo button right above the fader, like on every console.

So if there's a solution to program a macro which converts the EUCON protocol command of this Solo button on the surface to a macro which mutes this channel, opens the fader to 0dB and activates the solo (and reversed by deactivating the solo button) then I'll be happy with this. But I think that will be a bit difficult. I only know the macros which are triggered by a keystroke. Or are there any programming features like "If Solo button is pressed, then activate Mute + open fader + activate Solo"?
Implementing a function to the TriCaster which enables toggling from Solo to PFL would probably be easier.

Best,

Thomas

SBowie
11-01-2017, 03:49 PM
So if there's a solution to program a macro which converts the EUCON protocol command of this Solo button on the surface to a macro which mutes this channel, opens the fader to 0dB and activates the solo (and reversed by deactivating the solo button)...Setting aside the level issue for a moment, obviously you don't want enabling Solo to either add or remove the selected source from output. Why not simply use the automatic AFV options to ensure that enabling Solo has no impact on output, rather than having to manually engage Mute as you are currently doing?

tomhorn
11-01-2017, 04:32 PM
Hi Steve

Thank you for joining in. I think I don't understand your proposal exactly, I'm sorry. Do you suggest to activate the AFV function to prevent the audio from being routed to the output? I can't have the AFV be activated all the time, since the audio engineer sometimes is also opening channels which are not on air yet. That means that I had to push the AFV button instead of the Mute button everytime which doesn't enhance the workflow. And the main issue is that I have to open the fader for each check.

Is there a way to connect a macro to the Solo button on the Artist Mix? And is it possible to define a fader position in a macro? I don't think so.

SBowie
11-01-2017, 04:39 PM
I can't have the AFV be activated all the time, since the audio engineer sometimes is also opening channels which are not on air yet.I need a little better explanation of this, sorry. Why can you not let AFV do its job, making sure that an audio input only goes to output when you intend it to?

tomhorn
11-01-2017, 04:47 PM
Sometimes I have some DDR clips which I undercut with other sources. Or in the end of a clip there is sound which I have to keep playing for a few seconds while already switching the video back. Especially if there's music in a clip the manual fade out has to be much slower than the video. So I almost never use the AFV function. My AFV is my sound engineer which is more flexible :D

SBowie
11-01-2017, 04:48 PM
TriCaster's AFV can be configured to be triggered by varied and multiple sources. I'm still not seeing the issue, sorry. The guy on the board can still ride the faders manually. (I guess I can see that PFL instead of SOLO could sometimes make things a little easier, but if you're using AFV to full advantage I think you might find it somewhat less important.)

tomhorn
11-01-2017, 04:59 PM
O.k., maybe I have to recheck the AFV. But sound engineers don't like machines restricting them ;)

Apart from that I still have to open the fader to check the source and close it again. So every AFL function will never allow the same speed as a one-button PFL. Do you think there is a way to enable a PFL?

SBowie
11-01-2017, 05:18 PM
O.k., maybe I have to recheck the AFV. But sound engineers don't like machines restricting themI dream of the day when we might have a purpose designed audio surface where we can give them the whole enchilada. :)


Do you think there is a way to enable a PFL?I'm quite certain there isn't one at present.

tomhorn
11-01-2017, 05:43 PM
I dream of the day when we might have a purpose designed audio surface where we can give them the whole enchilada. :)
I think with these Artist Mix we're quite close to a practical solution, so half an enchilada ;) But it's really frustrating that it's almost only this missing PFL function which prevents an effective workflow.
The other thing is the audio tab with all meters which would be very helpful if we could show it on a separate screen (I think the LiveMixer Remote is not supported with the AE, so I still use the Standard Edition and have not bought the LiveMixer).


I'm quite certain there isn't one at present.
What a bummer. I think it's worth to discuss internally if there is a way to implement a toggle AFL/PFL with a next release. I'm not a programmer but I hope that it's not too complicated to define that routing to be done before the fader instead of after it. And I'm sure that will help a lot of users which have not been changed to the internal audio mixer yet because of that issue. If it's a toggle nobody would lose something but everyone would win a well-tried feature. Could you please forward this request to the developers?

Thanks a lot,

Thomas