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View Full Version : Poll #2: Are you a professional or a hobbyist?



sami
10-15-2017, 11:59 PM
Seeing as how the last poll about the age of LWers was insightful (in that it confirmed the senior skewed curve and lack of young people starting out with it), let's try another one.

I'll wager that most LWers here are hobbyists. Let's see. Please read the options before voting. I'll keep answers anonymous.

Please keep answers CURRENT to last 6 months. Most people use a number of different tools. Try to keep your answers in the spirit of how critical LW was to that income as well as how much time you used it for the income generating work.

jperk
10-16-2017, 12:56 AM
I fall into hobbyist for now. Been learning Autodesk and Adobe products at university. The subscriptions turned me away so I invested in LW and Zbrush. I thought I'd use LW to set up scenes, animate, and do base modeling.

Hoping to get into more professional freelance work or collaborations with smaller studios — film, TV, New Media, games, etc.

Kryslin
10-16-2017, 01:20 AM
I fall into the "none of the above" category. I make money with LW, yes - enough to pay for my LW updates and the next workstation. Mostly pre-viz of woodworking projects - desks, tables, cabinetry. Have some prop sets that have been sold, used in Webcomics. However, my day job is in Aerospace, so this is all a sideline, albeit an important one.

gar26lw
10-16-2017, 04:27 AM
yeah I can see where this one is going. its bad :(

Asticles
10-16-2017, 04:59 AM
I fall into none of the above, my choice would be:
Employed at studio/company, primary job role uses LW <10% of your working time

Regards

kyuzo
10-16-2017, 05:52 AM
yeah I can see where this one is going. its bad :(

I dunno... Lightwave has always been accessible for hobbyists as well as indie studios. I'm not sure if the even split between freelance and hobbyist is anything new.
I would like to see some responses from people who fall into the top three options, but to be honest, they might just be too busy, or don't bother checking in here very often.

At the end of the day, it's just a poll of whoever bothers to click on it, not a definitive breakdown of LW users...

gar26lw
10-16-2017, 06:13 AM
yeah, I guess so. Probably so.

Norka
10-16-2017, 06:49 AM
Yes. It is just deeply flawed and unscientific by virtue of the fact that there is a much higher ratio of retired/underemployed/unemployed hobbyists than pros here, who have better places to be. I am probably one of outliers, since I am winding down a very large project and next one is in the early stages. That, and I do have a feeling we are getting closer to LWN, for some stupidass reason... otherwise, I wouldn't have been around here lately to vote.

roboman
10-16-2017, 08:04 AM
Animation, graphics, cad/cam/cnc stuff done at home has been a hobby that has done a little better then to cover it's own costs since the late 1970's. As a percent of income, probably in the 1-10% range. After costs, I don't think it did a lot more then pay for a few nights out...

10-16-2017, 08:33 AM
This poll is 15 years too late when the 'pros' cared to venture here.
Because they became professionals, their time became more valuable. Equate that to: no time for these silly forums.
As well, some of the ill-mannered oldies and newbies chased off those pros who stuck around and continued to share their, now, highly professional skills. Think Proton.
Others were absorbed/assimilated into ... corporations such that they were no longer able to comment as they might wish. Think any/all the artists hired by NewTek over the years that were here but are not any longer.

A professional working with LW doesn't have to fit in any of these categories. Probably most won't.

Greenlaw
10-16-2017, 09:12 AM
This poll is 15 years too late when the 'pros' cared to venture here.
I know a lot of pro LW users and work with some but very few of them even lurk in these forum. They all have better things to do I guess. (Hey, what's that say about me?) :)

Most of my friends who are professional 3D artists and animators do not do 3D as a hobby. They prefer to spend their own time doing other things, and if they create art in their own time, it's probably NOT going to be CGI. I fully understand that; CGI isn't as much fun after you spend the entire day dealing with it at work. (I still do 3D at home sometimes...but I'm a glutton for punishment.)

But I think this has always been the case. I've been posting to this forum for a long time and very few professionals and co-workers I know have ever participated in the forums. It's just not their thing.

10-16-2017, 09:20 AM
. (Hey, what's that say about me?) :)

As I wrote that, I thought the same thing. :)

When LW was new, the forums were a lot of help. Now, there are other, less noisy places to get help.
Heck, the LW3D group doesn't even use the forums. (Unless they HAVE to!)

Yeah, when it becomes work, it ain't just for fun any more. I went through two years where using LW at home made me ... angry. Fun had become work.

A 3D printer and a large-ish cnc machine have brought the fun back home.

For me, coming here is a habit; a comforting moment in the day.

laswaver
10-16-2017, 09:42 AM
I have worked in the industry for over 20 years. I have watched the rise and fall of LW in the industry. From what I can see in my daily work life. There is not very many LW users at studios working. I tend to think this will be a fairly accurate poll. Looks to me that some people are just trying to will LW into being something that it no longer is. The reason that there is not more pros using LW is because only < 1% of studios use it, and most freelancers coming into the industry are smart enough to use modern relevant tools. Some of these comments smell of butt hurt fanboyism.

rustythe1
10-16-2017, 09:51 AM
I have worked in the industry for over 20 years. I have watched the rise and fall of LW in the industry. From what I can see in my daily work life. There is not very many LW users at studios working. I tend to think this will be a fairly accurate poll. Looks to me that some people are just trying to will LW into being something that it no longer is. The reason that there is not more pros using LW is because only < 1% of studios use it, and most freelancers coming into the industry are smart enough to use modern relevant tools. Some of these comments smell of butt hurt fanboyism.

Where do the numbers come from though? everyone I work with has LW in their pipeline, I don't think there are any numbers out there to support what is always being said by people and it all has to be based on peoples personal experience, just because you don't work with anyone that uses LW in your circles you cant say that only less than 1% of studios use it,

Norka
10-16-2017, 10:28 AM
Look at laswaver's join date and number of posts... something is rotten in Denmark. It is all hogwash either way. A bunch of bs. Repeat, not an accurate poll, by any stretch.

erikals
10-16-2017, 12:26 PM
it will be easier to get a more accurate poll once Next is out.  (this Christmas?... Next Christmas?...)

haven't use LightWave professionally in a long time, even though i'm better at it than ever.

doing LW tests after work (primary school)
also doing Film / Audio tests, though, none of that sort on my Youtube channel.
+ 50 other things

getting a job doing part-time LightWave would be quite easy.

however, doing LW projects at night does teach me much more, for then to (hopefully) use that knowledge later on creating indie films.

takes a damn long time though (read > years).

Greenlaw
10-16-2017, 03:01 PM
it will be easier to get a more accurate poll once Next is out.

I don't know. There might be a bigger response then but, but I think this poll is flawed. Most pro users (present company excepted,) don't use this forum or they visit it rarely, so I don't see how it can possibly gather a realistic measure of professional usage. Considering the general educational nature of this forum, the most active users here are probably going to be hobbyists.

At my workplace, for example, the team I'm with uses LightWave more than you might think, but I'm probably the only one there who is aware of this poll, let alone interested in responding to it. Even at other studios where I've worked, where LightWave was in far greater use, I was probably the only artist on the crew fantical enough to visit the forum regularly. Most normal people have other things they'd rather be doing. (Let's face it, we're freaks here.)

IMO, the only purpose this poll may wind up serving is to generate troll bait. (Which it seems to be doing already, so good job!) :thumbsup:

Over
10-16-2017, 04:14 PM
Im sorry if I do not agree. I like to consider myself a normal person (not a freak) and I consider the regular interaction of people on forums as a normal and neccessary action as well. Therere too many individuals here that like to look too much into things that are plain simple to understand. If you have some time to seat in front of your home PC at night or on weekends, why its so weird to interact in a forum? What if the OP have legitimate curiosity about the facts he ask in his poll?

Maybe you consider yourself a freak, but please dont pull everyone else into your pot. Im pretty sure that like me, therere many here that work in the morning, go to gym in the afternoon, play tennis and swim and also like to interact with other on forums like this one. That seems pretty normal to me. Some people interact in forums, other dont, still normal.


Now on thread. Sorry if I ask this, but Im relatively new in the 3D world. If I work for a company and make game assets and also give technical advice about those assets, in which category does that put me in?

erikals
10-16-2017, 04:18 PM
nothing is going to stop old-timers (you) and (me) from using LightWave a ton in the future anyway.

like you say, this poll doesn't mean very much, however it's an indication of quiet LW days.

LightWave marketing strategy (if one could call it that) is what it is and, is what it is.... etc... etc... etc...

even if LightWave should fall through the earth core i'm still glad i went with it. Best app for my use! :) :lwicon:


If I work for a company and make game assets and also give technical advice about those assets, in which category does that put me in?
:)  this > Employed at studio/company, primary job role uses LW >50% of your working time

Greenlaw
10-16-2017, 04:34 PM
Im sorry if I do not agree. I like to consider myself a normal person (not a freak)...
Sorry, no offense was intended. I probably should have put a smiley after that but I'm trying to cut-back. :)

Wickedpup
10-16-2017, 04:44 PM
getting a job doing part-time LightWave would be quite easy.

:ohmy: :lol:

Over
10-16-2017, 04:45 PM
:)  this > Employed at studio/company, primary job role uses LW >50% of your working time

So, does that makes me a pro?:D


Sorry, no offense was intended. I probably should have put a smiley after that but I'm trying to cut-back.

Dont worry. Im not that sensitive to be offended, just wanted to point out that every people is different.

rustythe1
10-16-2017, 04:55 PM
I don't know. There might be a bigger response then but, but I think this poll is flawed. Most pro users (present company excepted,) don't use this forum or they visit it rarely, so I don't see how it can possibly gather a realistic measure of professional usage. Considering the general educational nature of this forum, the most active users here are probably going to be hobbyists.

At my workplace, for example, the team I'm with uses LightWave more than you might think, but I'm probably the only one there who is aware of this poll, let alone interested in responding to it. Even at other studios where I've worked, where LightWave was in far greater use, I was probably the only artist on the crew fantical enough to visit the forum regularly. Most normal people have other things they'd rather be doing. (Let's face it, we're freaks here.)

IMO, the only purpose this poll may wind up serving is to generate troll bait. (Which it seems to be doing already, so good job!) :thumbsup:

NAIL ON THE HEAD! this is exactly why there is no news, opinions matter not, numbers are just heresy, and in fact if you read through the forums about 90% of users here use cinema4D now anyway, it will be interesting to see how many users suddenly resurface when Next is released,

erikals
10-16-2017, 05:15 PM
So, does that makes me a pro?:D
people have different opinions on that, many would say you are, so heck, yeah, why not? :)

Greenlaw
10-16-2017, 05:17 PM
...even if LightWave should fall through the earth core i'm still glad i went with it...
I had a dumb 'core' joke for this but since I've exceeded my smiley quota for the day...

No...must...resist... :)

Darn it. I have a problem.

Chris S. (Fez)
10-16-2017, 05:33 PM
I miss LW having market share. It was fun to talk shop with other local users...and for LW jobs to be "everywhere". Remember when LW was "everywhere"?

Now it seems a question of dead or mostly dead. Next will hopefully bring the community back to life.

laswaver
10-16-2017, 06:15 PM
Yeah, you are right. Lightwave market share in the industry is doing just fine. It's a conspiracy theory that it has lost most of its market share over the last ten years, and it's user base has dwindled down to next to nothing. I guess my own personal experience of using lw in the industry, and then having to switch software years ago just to find fulltime work is just a figment of my imagination.
But feel free to take the word of the pro who says no pros post here.... but himself of course! I guess all the other people who have answered the poll as pros are part of the conspiracy. They aren't really here posting... they are hobbyists pretending to be pros. Because we all know that pros don't come to this forum. I'd like to see the research and numbers that back up that statement.

sami
10-16-2017, 10:30 PM
...Some of these comments smell of butt hurt fanboyism.

i agree. Regardless of venue, it's a big enough sample size to be statistically significant.
138320

sami
10-16-2017, 10:36 PM
Yeah, you are right. Lightwave market share in the industry is doing just fine. It's a conspiracy theory that it has lost most of its market share over the last ten years, and it's user base has dwindled down to next to nothing. I guess my own personal experience of using lw in the industry, and then having to switch software years ago just to find fulltime work is just a figment of my imagination.
But feel free to take the word of the pro who says no pros post here.... but himself of course! I guess all the other people who have answered the poll as pros are part of the conspiracy. They aren't really here posting... they are hobbyists pretending to be pros. Because we all know that pros don't come to this forum. I'd like to see the research and numbers that back up that statement.

Yes, I mean the vote is the honor system. I didn't want to ask for tax returns, but I will if I have to!
138321

kyuzo
10-17-2017, 03:33 AM
Regardless of venue, it's a big enough sample size to be statistically significant.
138320

I couldn't disagree more about the sample size being statistically significant. For a start, at the moment only 61 people have voted. If there are (for example) 6,100 users of lightwave, then this poll only represents 1% of them. I'm guessign there are many more registered users.
Plus, this is the only place the poll exists (that I am aware of). It's a bit like standing in the lobby of Asda, and taking a poll on which supermarkets people shop at. Venue is crucial.

I'm not in a position to argue whether or not LW usage in large professional studios has shrunk, or remained the same. But it has always had a reputation for being the secret weapon to get certain jobs done quickly, even though it gets little or no credit.
I think hard facts about genuine LW usage across different groups will be impossible for us to determine. Newtek might know how many licences are out there, and whether they have been sold to individuals or companies, but even they have no way of knowing how often it gets used, or what for.

10-17-2017, 01:42 PM
Yeah, you are right. Lightwave market share in the industry is doing just fine. It's a conspiracy theory that it has lost most of its market share over the last ten years, and it's user base has dwindled down to next to nothing. I guess my own personal experience of using lw in the industry, and then having to switch software years ago just to find fulltime work is just a figment of my imagination.
But feel free to take the word of the pro who says no pros post here.... but himself of course! I guess all the other people who have answered the poll as pros are part of the conspiracy. They aren't really here posting... they are hobbyists pretending to be pros. Because we all know that pros don't come to this forum. I'd like to see the research and numbers that back up that statement.


Lol,
Did you join just to troll?

Whether its a figment of your imagination, or just sarcasm, your note seems to be one of Fanboyism Disappointed.

Why have the comments thus far riled you so that you had to join anew to comment? Just curious as your posts seem quite... angry.
Robert

Spinland
10-17-2017, 01:59 PM
Heh. Fun poll. I started using LW [8] as a hobbyist (got student status by buying Dan Ablan's course) back in the early aughts. Built my involvement up to a lucrative side hustle and then, just over seven years ago, quit my six-figure engineering job to do this crazy shite full time. Never been happier. LW nay-sayers can spew all they want. All I care about is, when the rubber meets the ramp, can it deliver when I need to seal the deal and score an invoice.

The answer is yes. Everything else is naval-gazing details. Sorry, no time for that. :jam:

Greenlaw
10-17-2017, 03:33 PM
Re: 'Research'. No research, just an opinion based on 20 years of working closely with artists at different studios using LW and other software. I know that's not scientific, but it is what I think.

And, no, I'm hardly the only pro user here. There are many users here who use Lightwave professionally, and some have been at it a lot longer than I have. (Actually, that's one of the reasons I still come here--this is a great place to ask for experienced advice from pro and hobbyist users, when I need it.) Anyway, the number is certainly more than what this poll suggests so far, so either most haven't noticed this poll exists or they don't want to be bothered with it.

Just a hunch. :)

Spinland
10-17-2017, 03:50 PM
Good closing point, Greenlaw: the thing about polls like these is they’re only engaging a self-selecting population so have no value as an actual statistical reference. From my long-gone-and-I-don’t-miss-them engineering days I’m quite familiar with statistical methods and what hoops a dataset must hop through before it’s statistically significant.

This is a fun thread, and a great opportunity to soap box, but as an actual indicator not so much. ;D

gar26lw
10-17-2017, 03:58 PM
so where are the best places to discuss lw and ask for help these days? fb, the modo forum? it’s not here, right?

Greenlaw
10-17-2017, 04:07 PM
I think this is still a good place for bouncing tech questions on other users.

I'm hardly ever on FB but it sounds like that's where a lot of the activity moved to. I would check it out but I'm afraid it will suck too much of my time. :)

I haven't been to the Modo forums for a while but, yeah, I've asked a few LW/Modo questions there when it was appropriate.

laswaver
10-17-2017, 04:12 PM
I am more interested in how you know that there are not more hobbyists that don't come here. Did you have conversation with all the hobbyists as well? How could you possibly know that all hobbyists come here? Like I said from the start... sounds more like someone trying to make LW look like it is more relevant than it actually is. Please, list all the hobbyists that you have interviewed? What is your proof that there are not more hobbyists that don't come here compared to pros that don't come here? Seems like your opinion automatically assumes all hobbyists come here. That is the proof I am interested in seeing.

Greenlaw
10-17-2017, 04:14 PM
You're so cute. :)

laswaver
10-17-2017, 04:21 PM
Thanks:hey:
We'll be waiting for your exhaustive list of interviewed hobbyists that proove they all come here.

erikals
10-17-2017, 04:32 PM
there is no denying there is a decline in professionals using LightWave, due to misc reasons.

however, little proves that this poll is accurate. it might be, it might not be.

you'll just have to guess really.

personally i don't care all that much. i care more about LightWave 2022, once launched.

Spinland
10-17-2017, 04:39 PM
Wow. That was just weird. Okay, moving on, now. Yankees are hanging onto the postseason by the skin of their teeth and after this game I have some guitar practice to get in.

Tomorrow it’s back into the VFX trenches. It’s all good. :jam:

- - - Updated - - -


Thanks:hey:
We'll be waiting for your exhaustive list of interviewed hobbyists that proove they all come here.

Who’s we? I’m trying to follow the premise that led to this ultimatum and, in all honesty, you lost me.

roboman
10-17-2017, 10:03 PM
If it makes you guys feel better or balances things out, I also have a copy of Max that I only do hobby work with, as well as several cad and cam programs, including some that are also owned by Autodesk. So you can also say Autodesk software is also hobby software :)

sami
10-17-2017, 10:24 PM
He is a bit upset. (I was agreeing with him, but taking a more irreverant and humourous tone). But I get how weird the vibe in here can do that to a person. You can't have your cake and eat it too - saying it' s all about the young pros, but they are clearly not the majority of licenses or are all lone wolves.


Newtek might know how many licences are out there, and whether they have been sold to individuals or companies, but even they have no way of knowing how often it gets used, or what for.

If they don't know then they're even more incompetent than the development roadmap. ;D


Are there pros that make $ off LW? Yes. I'm one of them, but my use of it is dwindling as there are other tools so much more advanced and save me time - but sure it has a place - albeit a smaller shrinking one.
Is it still quite capable software where you can make amazing art? Ye
Is it widespread in use in the industry? Nope
Does LW have any presence or professional customer base at any major event or conference in the last several years? Nope.
Do people think you are a dinosaur if you mention LW if your primary tools aren't something else? Yup.
Are LW3DG good guys working hard. Probably.
Do they care about customer communication and are going to release a significantly competitive app within 2 years? I seriously doubt it.

Love lightwave sure. I do too. Just why do you have stick your head in the sand about it?

138329

rustythe1
10-18-2017, 02:07 AM
Does LW have any presence or professional customer base at any major event or conference in the last several years? Nope.


138329

not quite true, it wasn't at Siggraph sure, but all the resellers have been at shows in Europe and japan, such as the Nottingham event posted in the forum, and there was a dedicated news letter after they had been visiting Japan.

erikals
10-18-2017, 02:28 AM
however, no major LW event or conference in the last several years.

so, we wait.

10-18-2017, 06:16 AM
Thanks:hey:
We'll be waiting for your exhaustive list of interviewed hobbyists that proove they all come here.

Hold your breath while you wait.

I'm sure someone will come up with a reason to finally get around to caring about what you are asking for.

kyuzo
10-18-2017, 07:05 AM
If they don't know then they're even more incompetent than the development roadmap. ;D138329

Newtek aren't telepathic y'know... Maybe it's just me, and I've been missed off their mailing list, but I've never had anyone from Newtek contact me to ask how much I use Lightwave, what I use it for, or how much money I earn from using it.

They know I have a license. That's all they know. But that doesn't make them incompetent, though

:)

papou
10-18-2017, 10:06 AM
I know several lightwavers that never come here.
So this poll show only that 50% of people here are hobbyist.
This is not 50% of artist are no more using lightwave for works or Lightwave is 50% dead...

Spinland
10-18-2017, 01:27 PM
I've already said this, and I'll say it again: polls such as these have no statistical relevance. The respondents are self-selecting population from a larger population that has no control or reliable metric to define.

In non-mathematical terms, it signifies nothing except the answers of some folks who chose to respond.

I get some folks are into arguing about...something, sometimes can't tell what points are being fought over...and some tempers seem to be hot regarding issues with how LW is being managed. Okay, fair enough, but that's all any of this really is: venting and bickering and arguing and if getting it off your chest helps you feel better than that's awesome. From my perspective, in terms of the sorts of goals I'd be into, such as affecting actual change in the situation that's pissing me off...not so much.

My feeling is that reality of the climate here, that what seems to be a large percentage of the traffic on this board is endless, pointless griping and complaining that will motivate no one, convince no one, and will never amount to anything I see as worthwhile, is why the dearth of people with actual skin in the game chiming in here. What's the point?

Nicolas Jordan
10-18-2017, 01:59 PM
Not a great selection of options in the poll. I make 100% of my income using Lightwave and have been now for almost 11 years. Every rendering I make comes raw out of Lightwave. No time for post in my business. My entire pipeline is based around Lightwave.

Snosrap
10-18-2017, 06:50 PM
I know several lightwavers that never come here.
So this poll show only that 50% of people here are hobbyist.
This is not 50% of artist are no more using lightwave for works or Lightwave is 50% dead...

Yep - I work with two that never come here and use LW professionally in 90% of their day.
It would be my guess that there are thousands of big time users that never come here.

Along with the two I mentioned we have another 2 guys that use LW in our marketing department on various projects off and on that never come here.

laswaver
10-18-2017, 07:04 PM
I just talk to 9 hobbyists on skype last night and none of them come here.

tyrot
10-18-2017, 09:04 PM
Not a great selection of options in the poll. I make 100% of my income using Lightwave and have been now for almost 11 years. Every rendering I make comes raw out of Lightwave. No time for post in my business. My entire pipeline is based around Lightwave.

same here..

Luc_Feri
10-19-2017, 03:58 AM
Was freelancer, in house small studio. Did work for household UK clients and major branding agency in UK, work for Dubai, Hong Kong etc.

Oh the irony. Guy ran crack copies of 3DSMax 2014/2015 and Vray 3.0, should have reported the c**t when he took a year to pay me.

And there was me, spent 5K on software over the years, full commercial licenses of MODO from 601,701,801 and then 10. Lightwave 11 with free upgrades to 11.5 and bought 2015 upgrade and the rest, Mari 2.....

Didn't use any of my software and have earned 0 from it.

Now who's a tool and exploited muppet. Do you ever wonder why you bothered?

Don't worry, I helped him promise a major client a huge amount of modelling work, epic contract months of work, I left at his busiest time, he shut up shop. I won. I think he works from home now.

Karma for exploiting me and not paying his commercial licenses like I had, payback is sweet.

By trade I'm a professional scientist, decade for major pharmaceutical UK company, last job before the freelancer gig was a 40k Pharma Validation Officer overseas in 2011. Dad got terminal cancer, moved back home to help care for him and started learning 3D back in my old bedroom in 2012.

That's how I started 3D. Sometimes wonder if I'm deluded now or 3D is pipe dreams. First freelancer gig was a fairly long term thing but I was exploited, never be a soft touch, it has set me back 2 years nearly, hardly done anything since really, f****d off.

Won't go back to pharma/death industry, it's nothing other than legal drug pushing. Could you smile like the rest of the mugs at work when we sold $4Bn worth of neurological drugs, lot of sick minds out there, nobody bothered, making money, sad sick industry. It does some good, helps some, murders others........

I'm very technically minded, I like 3D, like figuring out solutions. I'd love to be a LW Guru, someone in the community knocking out tutorials, engaging folk, promoting and showcasing LW as others do. But I would need some kind of compensation, can't keep giving away pipeline studies, tricks techniques for free, ain't gonna happen.

Community all help each other on here, lots of great people. However, look at threads, view counts to post count, it's slanted. So many people in reality will leech your techniques and then make money from your time saving genius ideas, that is BS.

Some talk in this thread about who is pro and hobbyist or in reality a hobbyist trying to pass themselves off as pro?

How many pro's have come on here and leeched a ton of ideas, tricks and techniques off hobbyist trying to act like a pro?

Maybe the hobbyist wanted to impress the pro's, to say I can too also do this gig, to get noticed? You thought of that for once did ya? Yeah I can guess which ones fall into this category and they have posted stuff for years on here, same people over and over, maybe hoping to get noticed, but getting leeched in reality. BS.

Spinland
10-19-2017, 04:25 AM
I just talk to 9 hobbyists on skype last night and none of them come here.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

Luc_Feri
10-19-2017, 06:07 AM
I had a rant on here years ago, said 'Hollywood' was the church of satan and a cesspit and got laughed at by some.

Who's laughing now momma, who's laughing now. :D

Spinland
10-19-2017, 06:16 AM
Heh. I'd be screaming "AMEN!" from the cheap seats. :rock:

Luc_Feri
10-19-2017, 06:18 AM
heh. I'd be screaming "amen!" from the cheap seats. :rock:

lol :D

It's too late for me. Stood just yards from James Hetfield as he proclaimed, 'Hail Satan if you please', do,do,do,do,do,do,do!!

Luc_Feri
10-19-2017, 06:22 AM
My point about owning LW and MODO was that all jobs I did never used them, was all 3ds Max.

So unless I got a gig at Darkside studios in UK, where else? FuzzyFrog uses lightwave, Simon Smalley seems like a good dude. Any others?

I'd have to be freelance to use LW/MODO, my own boss. My rant was can I be a succesfull freelancer without being conned, cheated, exploited?

Can I muster the strength to get over that bad experience? We'll see.

roboman
10-19-2017, 08:16 AM
I'd have to be freelance to use LW/MODO, my own boss. My rant was can I be a succesfull freelancer without being conned, cheated, exploited? .
No. I'm reasonably sure I don't know any one in business who hasn't been conned, cheated or exploited. Some go on about how well they would have done if they hadn't been screwed over and robbed. Others just blow it off, try to learn something, try to deal with better people and carry on with what they want to do. Every one gets screwed over at one point or another. I've had several people blow off paying me, because this is just something I do from home in my spare time and not a real job. I don't work for/with them any more. I probably would if they payed me cash up front. Going around thinking you would be as rich as Bill Gates if you just hadn't been ripped off gains you little, except bad feelings. I'm sure Bill Gates also got ripped off, but just went on to the next project. Jezzz how many copies of Microsoft products get pirated, but Bill seems happy and sells lots of products. Stores include how much they are going to get ripped off as part of their budget and cost out counter measures based on those numbers. It's just a part of life and you shouldn't let it ruin the good parts.

Spinland
10-19-2017, 08:45 AM
I'd have to be freelance to use LW/MODO, my own boss. My rant was can I be a succesfull freelancer without being conned, cheated, exploited?

To some degree...nope. Right now I have outstanding invoices for thousands of dollars, one over a year old; that client (the manager of a reasonably well known studio I shall not name) keeps making excuses. I've been doing this as a full-time freelancer for just over 7 years now (as a side hustle for nearly 10 before that) and I've learned a lot of hard lessons about protecting myself from getting screwed. I don't make as much as I did when I was a research engineer (or a military officer before that) but I'm as happy as I've ever been and I wouldn't trade this pain for anything. :)

I do have Max, and Maya, and know them both reasonably well, because sometimes I have to be able to interface with established workflows. For the most part, though, my 3D work is all LW with a sometimes-assist from zB or 3DC when I need specialized results.

Snosrap
10-19-2017, 08:53 AM
My rant was can I be a succesfull freelancer without being conned, cheated, exploited?

The 50% upfront should be the amount you need to cover your costs - put food on the table, heat, rent, electricity and software costs - and the last 50% is profit over and above your normal costs and cover any under budgeting of the job. :)

Luc_Feri
10-19-2017, 11:52 AM
Thanks for feedback and your honesty. Quite brutal world really if your not careful.

It's hard to know the right tactics when starting out and it's disappointing to hear that the issue never really goes away even when experienced.

I like the 50% appoach up front that would at least cover the base costs and the rest almost being like a bonus. I guess with the flip side of coin, say I undercost the job but it is a reliablle customer, if I'd got 50% up front but the job got delayed due to technical issues or whatever, struggling to hit deadline, then I could maybe take the hit myself out of the other 50% time factored.

I've done archviz and that, yes plenty of money in it, not for me mind as the grunt doing all the modelling/texturing/rendering working for that exploitive t**t. The issue doesn't seem to go away for any of you.

I really think another output angle is required from me and not in the visualisation world. I remember clients changing their minds like the wind. Archviz is not as simple as buy everything from turbosquid and populate the room, far from it. Designers don't want yesterdays light fixtures or furniture they want, right now, up to date fashion statements, can't buy that on Turbosquid. I had to model loads of new furniture from basic h/d/w, seat heights and reference pictures on the net if your lucky!

Thanks to Tony Hall and the Darkside studios presentation, I now have a benchmark figure what clients are charged for animations for either top end or mass market good quality 3D animations.

It was said, 3M quid for 52x10 min episodes of good quality cartoon animation and high end would be 5M.

So seeing as Amazon/Netflix are all looking for more and more content, there you go. See if you can deliver a show and undercut that figure and maybe deliver.

Maybe we could set up a group based project, cloud and dropbox connected globally from your own seat, get a mentor to oversee the legal side and deliver a real gem and have no middle man or jack *** trying to cream us honest decent 3D artists. :D

It's about time this world was rid of agents, quango's, think tanks and other non productive leeches who offer zero output or productivity value to our GDP.

Ron Schatz
10-20-2017, 08:58 PM
I mostly read the forums 3-5 times a year, same old stuff, I started in 96, after drafting for 4 or 5 years and DTP for 4, poop that's a long time.
I use Lightwave (from 3.1 to 2015.3) started ImageGrille (Archvis, mostly) in 97, I make living at it and own a house and have Family, the kid is finishing HS this year, a jazz musician (has gig tonight). I tell him being good is a given, know more people and have more people know you, is 1 key you can change to be good at your industry.
Yet, 2017 is closing up, and just this week I need to close up 2 story Restaurant on the Vegas Strip and FortMeyer Carwash prototypes color changes(6th round?) then prep a lake Forest IL 7 bedroom 6 car Home for next week and try fit in a Mid Century Modern design concept and 2 smaller jobs somewhere. Phuu..
This Pro is and (has been) looking the next big thing, Tony had asked NT to go from LW to UR... that's nice. I have this week (Today)place a FBX model into Lumion and Twinmotion2018, The Surface work in these programs are unrefined, I can't use them with old and new texture library's , so disappointing, Back LW and just make work.
Tony said it, Work with what you know and change when you need to.
When LW 6, was new, remember boys,not fun.
You can't do it all, so do what you like, each job is not same as the last, or the next.
So take a 2 more chorus's and remember the bridge... da de de da da doooo.. :)