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View Full Version : New Blog Post: Peebler's Back!



gar26lw
08-25-2017, 04:43 AM
https://www.thefoundry.co.uk/files/5814/5348/1507/ces-blog-pic3.jpg

Bit of Friday humour.

Post yer Peebler pics ;)

blackmondy
08-25-2017, 04:51 AM
Back to Newtek ?

js33
08-25-2017, 11:55 AM
Brad's new career. Just kidding of course.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=Y7rXlbHtcqM

ianr
08-31-2017, 11:25 AM
https://www.thefoundry.co.uk/files/5814/5348/1507/ces-blog-pic3.jpg

Bit of Friday humour.

Post yer Peebler pics ;)


Yeah, that Rad Feebler never had good taste in sunglass shades :cool:

scallahan1
08-31-2017, 07:17 PM
I thought he was drunk and wearing audio headphones wrong. :)

50one
09-01-2017, 01:21 AM
Yeah, that Rad Feebler never had good taste in sunglass shades :cool:

I think that what he got for trading MODO lol

Farhad_azer
09-02-2017, 04:54 AM
LoL scallahan1 very funny.

Norka
09-03-2017, 04:49 AM
What the hell is a peebler? Am I supposed to know what that is? :-/

Markc
09-03-2017, 06:03 AM
Brad Peebler used to be part of Newtek, then went on to do Modo.

ianr
09-03-2017, 06:55 AM
Brad Peebler used to be part of Newtek, then went on to do Modo.


Yeah, He was chief 'Snake-oil salesman' fer LightWave NewTek.

hrgiger
09-03-2017, 07:16 AM
He was one of the ones that wanted to make lw better. But NT management disagreed. So him and a handful of key developers left. Which is why we still have a modeler from the 90s.

jeric_synergy
09-03-2017, 09:30 AM
Yeah, He was chief 'Snake-oil salesman' fer LightWave NewTek.

Sometimes, that's what you need. Assuming LW is every re-issued, it will certainly need that AGAIN. Digging out of this hole will not be easy.

Wickedpup
09-03-2017, 09:49 AM
Yeah, He was chief 'Snake-oil salesman' fer LightWave NewTek.
So in other words he was selling snake-oil for Newtek? And here I had the impression that you liked LW :p

blackmondy
09-03-2017, 10:49 AM
To his credit, Brad Peebler did turn Modo into a glorified Lightwave.

There's still plenty of Lightwave DNA in Modo under the hood.....

hrgiger
09-03-2017, 11:48 AM
Yes sort of like humans and apes share dna. May have similarities, completely different animal.

bazsa73
09-03-2017, 12:39 PM
To his credit, Brad Peebler did turn Modo into a glorified Lightwave.

There's still plenty of Lightwave DNA in Modo under the hood.....

Glory hole?

jeric_synergy
09-03-2017, 02:03 PM
To his credit, Brad Peebler did turn Modo into a glorified Lightwave.
I'm not even sure what that means.

AFAIK, Brad is no kind of programmer, although he has some good design instincts. He certainly is an excellent pitch-man, and frankly, lots of projects need exactly that skill-set.

Ernest
09-03-2017, 04:48 PM
He was one of the ones that wanted to make lw better. But NT management disagreed. So him and a handful of key developers left. Which is why we still have a modeler from the 90s.

Well, that's a very one-sided view of the issue. If we remember their post, the first time they announced Luxology, here on the forums, the issue was much more complicated.

What they said back then, when they were still planning on working with Newtek was not that NT didn't want to make LW better. That's a distortion of the original message that came later. What they originally said in that post (and I'm paraphrasing because it was many years ago) was that it was impossible to make Lightwave better without capturing resources from external investors. That they had formed Luxology, which would be the exclusive owner and developer of Lightwave, from now on, with extensive resources coming from the sale of Luxology stock, and Newtek would remain their exclusive distributor. And about five minutes later, someone from NT, Chuck I think, posted something like "Wait... what? Since whe-- No. That is not what is happening at all. Newtek is the sole owner of Lightwave. And they closed the thread.

So clearly, when they say that Newtek didn't want to make Lightwave better, they mean that Newtek didn't want to make Lightwave better at the cost of losing ownership of part or most (or all) of it. Which is certainly a more complicated issue.

TheLexx
09-03-2017, 05:59 PM
To his credit, Brad Peebler did turn Modo into a glorified Lightwave.

There's still plenty of Lightwave DNA in Modo under the hood.....

I'm not even sure what that means.
I was reminded of a Brent Alleyne excerpt here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3XA4dykW3g#t=6m30s)which gives an interesting opinion. The "rant" from earlier in the video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3XA4dykW3g#t=3m59s)is also interesting. :)

hrgiger
09-03-2017, 07:08 PM
Well, that's a very one-sided view of the issue. If we remember their post, the first time they announced Luxology, here on the forums, the issue was much more complicated.

What they said back then, when they were still planning on working with Newtek was not that NT didn't want to make LW better. That's a distortion of the original message that came later. What they originally said in that post (and I'm paraphrasing because it was many years ago) was that it was impossible to make Lightwave better without capturing resources from external investors. That they had formed Luxology, which would be the exclusive owner and developer of Lightwave, from now on, with extensive resources coming from the sale of Luxology stock, and Newtek would remain their exclusive distributor. And about five minutes later, someone from NT, Chuck I think, posted something like "Wait... what? Since whe-- No. That is not what is happening at all. Newtek is the sole owner of Lightwave. And they closed the thread.

So clearly, when they say that Newtek didn't want to make Lightwave better, they mean that Newtek didn't want to make Lightwave better at the cost of losing ownership of part or most (or all) of it. Which is certainly a more complicated issue.

There are conflicting stories about what actually happened so unless someone has some evidence, not much point in debating it...

Either way, no matter what the actual story was, it doesn't change the fact that Modeler has rotted since that time. And now some 16 years later, we're still no closer to a integrated application.

Ernest
09-03-2017, 07:57 PM
There are conflicting stories about what actually happened so unless someone has some evidence, not much point in debating it...

But we all saw it. It's not like it was posted on some secret beta forum. It was right in the General Discussions. There were over 50 replies before the thread got locked.

Surrealist.
09-03-2017, 08:02 PM
There is plenty of indication to suggest we are actually 8 years closer to an integration. Anyone following can see this. So no reason to lay it out. Yet again.

Chris S. (Fez)
09-03-2017, 08:10 PM
There is plenty of indication to suggest we are actually 8 years closer to an integration. Anyone following can see this. So no reason to lay it out. Yet again.

Yup. LW Group even mentioned that the new modeling tools are being coded with Layout in mind.

hrgiger
09-04-2017, 02:19 AM
There is plenty of indication to suggest we are actually 8 years closer to an integration. Anyone following can see this. So no reason to lay it out. Yet again.

Lol 8 years thats hilarious. Neither lw 10, 11 or 2015 has shown a single indication of any move towards integration and lw next simply has the mention of layout being aware of points, polygons or edges. Hey maybe in another 8 years they wiil fill the modeling engineer developer position theyve now had open for years.

hrgiger
09-04-2017, 02:35 AM
But we all saw it. It's not like it was posted on some secret beta forum. It was right in the General Discussions. There were over 50 replies before the thread got locked.
I didnt see it so unless someone has a copy of that... But again, they were developing that tech for LW and whatever their disagreements with NT management was, the result was the same. To me, no matter what you thought about the decisions Brad, Allen, Stuart, and others made during that time, they simply offered lw users at the time a different path forward. And based on the fact that a lot of luxolgys user base was largely made up of ex lw users, its clear that many lw users preferred that path.

Surrealist.
09-04-2017, 02:45 AM
Lol 8 years thats hilarious. Neither lw 10, 11 or 2015 has shown a single indication of any move towards integration and lw next simply has the mention of layout being aware of points, polygons or edges. Hey maybe in another 8 years they wiil fill the modeling engineer developer position theyve now had open for years.

That I don't know about. I am not in hiring at NewTek. But as an outsider looking in, another 8 years sounds about right to have full integration with all of the tools working. Considering the direction they took was to work on LightWave from the inside out throughout the 10 series up to present, that sounds about right. And of course there would not be any outward indication of this until the engine is in place. And we have not seen that yet even.

But once that is released, from there I would expect to see some significant changes in say the next 3 years following. With an additional 5 years or more to settle it all.

So yeah your additional 8 year mark is about right. At least for integration. And so that is a fairly spot on from the hip reaction.

References of above points:

https://blog.lightwave3d.com/2015/10/lightwave-philosophy/

https://blog.lightwave3d.com/2015/10/unified-mesh-system/

gamedesign1
09-04-2017, 02:56 AM
I didnt see it so unless someone has a copy of that... But again, they were developing that tech for LW and whatever their disagreements with NT management was, the result was the same. To me, no matter what you thought about the decisions Brad, Allen, Stuart, and others made during that time, they simply offered lw users at the time a different path forward. And based on the fact that a lot of luxolgys user base was largely made up of ex lw users, its clear that many lw users preferred that path.

I would love to have gone the Modo route, but unfortunately I haven't been able to justify the cost. I so wish I had taken Luxology up on their crossgrade option all those years ago where you could crossgrade from LW to Modo. I've asked for something similar since but no luck :)

Marander
09-04-2017, 03:53 AM
I would love to have gone the Modo route, but unfortunately I haven't been able to justify the cost. I so wish I had taken Luxology up on their crossgrade option all those years ago where you could crossgrade from LW to Modo. I've asked for something similar since but no luck :)

There is at least once a year an offer for modo 40% off. I might have gotten it myself last time put the new online activation thing killed that.

Wickedpup
09-04-2017, 04:15 AM
I was reminded of a Brent Alleyne excerpt here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3XA4dykW3g#t=6m30s)which gives an interesting opinion. The "rant" from earlier in the video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3XA4dykW3g#t=3m59s)is also interesting. :)
Bah.....just a lot of assumptions and biased malarkey.

hrgiger
09-04-2017, 05:05 AM
I would love to have gone the Modo route, but unfortunately I haven't been able to justify the cost. I so wish I had taken Luxology up on their crossgrade option all those years ago where you could crossgrade from LW to Modo. I've asked for something similar since but no luck :)

I sent Shane at Foundry a message on facebook and asked him about the possibility of a crossgrade offer. But as Marander said, they usally have a sale once a year.

TheLexx
09-04-2017, 05:25 AM
I sent Shane at Foundry a message on facebook and asked him about the possibility of a crossgrade offer. But as Marander said, they usally have a sale once a year.Some years ago, a crazy thing happened with Foundry - I almost feel I imagined it, but it did happen, though I appreciate I may not be believed. I was working a long shift covering a Christmas Day and idly browsed the Foundry site, where I saw a totally unannounced statement to the effect of "If you are actually browsing our site on Christmas Day, here is your massive discount". I can't recall the exact percentages, but I remember thinking, "If someone is thinking of going in, now would definitely be the time !". Never happened since that I know of.

50one
09-04-2017, 07:53 AM
That's how I won 8 iphones already, just clicking on "congratulations (ip address) you just won!"

ianr
09-04-2017, 09:13 AM
Thanks Ernest for the Lux piece, well if Andrew Cross has got a plan he could bring back

the 'Prodigal Son ' Brad for launch now that's Rad & he'll get some attention cos he CAN DO

Marketing & Fairs & is not unknown to NEWTEK.

If ROB has resigned, let go ,undue to ill health whatever.

However BRAD could be RAD to whip up some interest in LIGHTWAVE NeXt Marketing.

Especially after the opening para in 3dArtist Magazine last month introducing LWCAD for 3dMax,

which was subtle demise scenario inferment.

Well Mr. Cross ?

Verlon
09-04-2017, 11:46 AM
That I don't know about. I am not in hiring at NewTek. But as an outsider looking in, another 8 years sounds about right to have full integration with all of the tools working. Considering the direction they took was to work on LightWave from the inside out throughout the 10 series up to present, that sounds about right. And of course there would not be any outward indication of this until the engine is in place. And we have not seen that yet even.

But once that is released, from there I would expect to see some significant changes in say the next 3 years following. With an additional 5 years or more to settle it all.

So yeah your additional 8 year mark is about right. At least for integration. And so that is a fairly spot on from the hip reaction.

References of above points:

https://blog.lightwave3d.com/2015/10/lightwave-philosophy/

https://blog.lightwave3d.com/2015/10/unified-mesh-system/

So, you think a 24 (8+8+8=24) year development cycle is okay for this project? I admire your patience, but certainly not do not share it. You could learn coding and rewrite the entire application in less time. Look at what Blender did in 16 years, with no budget to speak of. Look at almost any other software that is being developed for the last 16 years (Windows, MacOS, Poser, Modo, Photoshop, Internet Explorer, Max, Unreal, Premiere Pro, Linux, Vue) and compare any of them to Modeler.

And then, what if there is a snag (programmers dying of old age, Ragnorak, Morlocks eating the marketing team). Are you ready to wait 40-50 years for the update?

It's a software package, not the Great Pyramid. Heck, they even started and finished One World Trade Center since the last substantial modeler update, so even that comparison has issues.

Surrealist.
09-04-2017, 02:39 PM
I never said 24 years. Not sure where you are getting your math from. Blender has a budget. Probably larger than LightWave currently when you also consider the Blender Cloud. ;)

But it is as an application in a horrible mess coding wise with all kings of things unfinished. Some never will be. They are still working on it. It would be a massive project to clean it up. And because they are limited in resources they have to pick and choose resources. This from Ton's words. Not mine. Do your research.

If you want to compare development cycles, Modo is a good easy way to compare what it took. If you match that year for year it would parallel in a basic way what is happening with the current development of LightWave. Not tool for tool. Because they took another route. But overall progress. And with that as the most realistic comparison, at 8 years in LightWave is near the half way mark of what is realistically a 15- 20 year project.

And if you compare back to Blender. Yes. 16 years is about right. That is how long it took Blender to get where it is. Which in my opinion is not nearly as far as where Modo is in the last 16. Modo has more funding. Maya has been around about as long. Has even more funding. Has moved further than Modo and Blender.

I am seeing a pattern here. Are you?

Verlon
09-04-2017, 04:31 PM
I never said 24 years. Not sure where you are getting your math from. Blender has a budget. Probably larger than LightWave currently when you also consider the Blender Cloud. ;)

But it is as an application in a horrible mess coding wise with all kings of things unfinished. Some never will be. They are still working on it. It would be a massive project to clean it up. And because they are limited in resources they have to pick and choose resources. This from Ton's words. Not mine. Do your research.

If you want to compare development cycles, Modo is a good easy way to compare what it took. If you match that year for year it would parallel in a basic way what is happening with the current development of LightWave. Not tool for tool. Because they took another route. But overall progress. And with that as the most realistic comparison, at 8 years in LightWave is near the half way mark of what is realistically a 15- 20 year project.

And if you compare back to Blender. Yes. 16 years is about right. That is how long it took Blender to get where it is. Which in my opinion is not nearly as far as where Modo is in the last 16. Modo has more funding. Maya has been around about as long. Has even more funding. Has moved further than Modo and Blender.

I am seeing a pattern here. Are you?


Its been 16 years, your're saying in another 8 years. 8 years plus 16 years = 24 years. No, you never said 24 years. You said 8 more sounded about right.

You may not like Modo as much as Lightwave, but it definitely has a faster release cycle (and they are real and substantial releases) and more frequent communication.

The funding part isn't relevant. Do your customers care about how Newtek funds LW as compared to how brand X is funding their software, or that their image looks good?

Marander
09-04-2017, 04:44 PM
There was a tine when LW was side-by-side with Houdini and Cinema 4D, even ahead in many aspects. Modo not born yet, Max and Maya still very shaky. Softimage was on top of all but very expensive.

Obviously some of the design teams were more skilled and the management made better decisions.

For technical oriented artists Houdini Indie is the best package for its price imho. For more budget and more artist friendly use, modo and C4D. This level can never be reached again by LW in my opinion, specially if the others continue to be as fast and innovative. And all of them already replaced or enhanced key components (renderer and procedural modeling in modo, main core, modeling and media core in C4D etc).

Countless workflow features that LW lacks, like a takes & tokens system, spline handling, snapping, workplanes, non-destructive workflow, flaws in the graph editor etc.). Not to speak of the ui, split application, IKB, undo or help system.

For LW to catchup with these packages is impossible in my opinion.

But LW3DG can and hopefully will still make good decisions, for example mssive data / mesh handling and good looking, easy to use and affordable FX like volumetrics.

OlaHaldor
09-04-2017, 11:47 PM
I would love to have gone the Modo route, but unfortunately I haven't been able to justify the cost. I so wish I had taken Luxology up on their crossgrade option all those years ago where you could crossgrade from LW to Modo. I've asked for something similar since but no luck :)

I remember downloading a trial of Modo 601, and two weeks after I got a "hey! did you like it? Get 50% off if you buy within two days" sort of email. I had barely opened Modo and didn't like it, then. Nor was 3D 100% of my bread and butter. Fast forward 4 years and I had just spent a year back at school and graduated from a 3D course which technically made me a student, and I purchased the entire Nuke/Mari/Modo suite for $250, which I then could upgrade to the full license the year after. Best deal I've ever done.

Now there's subscription and you can pay for a year in advance. I'd do it!

50one
09-05-2017, 01:18 AM
I remember downloading a trial of Modo 601, and two weeks after I got a "hey! did you like it? Get 50% off if you buy within two days" sort of email. I had barely opened Modo and didn't like it, then. Nor was 3D 100% of my bread and butter. Fast forward 4 years and I had just spent a year back at school and graduated from a 3D course which technically made me a student, and I purchased the entire Nuke/Mari/Modo suite for $250, which I then could upgrade to the full license the year after. Best deal I've ever done.

Now there's subscription and you can pay for a year in advance. I'd do it!


Got similar deal I think around 50x/60x times, downloaded paid trial and got an email from Steve asking if I like it and whether I'll buy it and got 40% off.

Surrealist.
09-09-2017, 07:54 PM
Its been 16 years, your're saying in another 8 years. 8 years plus 16 years = 24 years. No, you never said 24 years. You said 8 more sounded about right.

You may not like Modo as much as Lightwave, but it definitely has a faster release cycle (and they are real and substantial releases) and more frequent communication.

The funding part isn't relevant. Do your customers care about how Newtek funds LW as compared to how brand X is funding their software, or that their image looks good?

I got it. By the way. You think LightWave development is too slow for you. The way you are articulating this argument is hard for me to follow. It is very difficult to discuss this in the way you seem to be comfortable with. But it is no matter. I get what you were meaning under it all.

And I am OK with that anyway.

But to discuss software development and the present state of software for me to be interested requires a different approach than you are taking. So that is more or less why I left it at that. :)