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bazsa73
08-02-2017, 10:55 AM
What the heck is going on here? No news, no feedback, no nothing only endless threads full of frustration and speculation.
ROB! MATT! DO SOMETHING! LINO YOU TOO!
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggh!

Wireframex
08-02-2017, 10:59 AM
Please stay alive :)

Asticles
08-02-2017, 11:07 AM
bazsa73 incredible portfolio!

TheLexx
08-02-2017, 11:09 AM
Yes, hang in there. Remember the alternative is to either starve to death or rent a pizza to look at. :D

Asticles
08-02-2017, 11:50 AM
I don't know if this situation can be handled worse.

SBowie
08-02-2017, 12:22 PM
I don't know if this situation can be handled worse.Please do not tempt fate ...

Ztreem
08-02-2017, 12:59 PM
With the latest versions of blender I actually consider to take the time to learn it more deeply. Then maybe I don't feel I need LW anymore or I will use both... who knows, time will tell.
But the excitment I felt about LW when they started the blog has now switched to Blender with Eevee, sculpting and animation nodes.

stiff paper
08-02-2017, 02:18 PM
Siggraph would have been a very good moment to at least say something, but tomorrow is the last day of Siggraph...

Matt
08-02-2017, 03:23 PM
Not sure why you're including me on this, I have nothing to do with marketing.

Bill Carey
08-02-2017, 03:32 PM
Please do not tempt fate ...

Lol, you win!

Spinland
08-02-2017, 03:46 PM
Please do not tempt fate ...

You don't taunt Happy Fun Ball. ;D

gar26lw
08-02-2017, 03:51 PM
Not sure why you're including me on this, I have nothing to do with marketing.

Cos you're a nice guy who cares about what he does and well, somehow, some way you might be able to talk some sense into someone but I doubt it. Decisions, bosses, company directives, something like that.
Just know that customers cried out and said hey, restore my faith before I jump ship. There was a chance.
Chin up though, I realise this is nothing to do with you and all I can say is I'm sorry.

Quick example from my personal experience; I tried to have a shot at suggesting lightwave to a friend who was looking to add a 3D package to his toolset and directed him to the newsletter (thought the blog would be a turn off with lack of posts). He liked it but then read the pixel fondu site and looked at modo and its new features. Got a message raving about that and how it looked like it was getting some nice development and features. So he's gonna buy that. I tried. Communication matters and does translate to sales.

I'm not in marketing but even I know that it's not a good move atm.

Hope the ux and ui stuff is coming along well but it might not matter much as, after 17 years of lw use and loving it, i too am moving to modo and soon there won't be a return. At least you won't have to put up with posts like this but then there might be nobody left here, cos I'm one of the diehard lw wack jobs that blindly carried on using using the app all that time.

I speculate that the next version may break all the modelling plugins and if that's the case (third party has held the fort so to speak all this time), that will be it no matter what the renderer is like.

I think I'm rambling, take it easy ;)

Spinland
08-02-2017, 04:05 PM
Just delivered two draft animations to clients, using Lightwave, and the feedback was "amazing." Tomorrow I start on the main production scenes.

It's just a tool, mang. Get the job done, how you do it is in the noise. ;D

50one
08-02-2017, 04:09 PM
Just delivered two draft animations to clients, using Lightwave, and the feedback was "amazing." Tomorrow I start on the main production scenes.

It's just a tool, mang. Get the job done, how you do it is in the noise. ;D

Can you please post some of ot here, would love to have a look!

gar26lw
08-02-2017, 04:09 PM
The problem is when you are working with others and need a consistent pipeline. One mans show, sure but multi user teams, it is a very hard sell.

Matt
08-02-2017, 04:31 PM
Cos you're a nice guy who cares about what he does and well, somehow, some way you might be able to talk some sense into someone but I doubt it. Decisions, bosses, company directives, something like that.
Just know that customers cried out and said hey, restore my faith before I jump ship. There was a chance.
Chin up though, I realise this is nothing to do with you and all I can say is I'm sorry.

I would love to be able to show stuff, however, any release of information needs to go through marketing.

Spinland
08-02-2017, 04:33 PM
The problem is when you are working with others and need a consistent pipeline. One mans show, sure but multi user teams, it is a very hard sell.

I get it. In my case I'm fortunate in that where I'm at no one does what I do. I'm poised to become the director of a regional animation studio and I got to make the call on the tools to use. Not everyone has that option and, again, I get it. I know I'm beeyotching at the beeyotchers, and I need to put my cane away and stop yelling at the kids on my lawn. ;D

Asticles
08-02-2017, 04:34 PM
I would love to be able to show stuff, however, any release of information needs to go through marketing.

At this moment marketing are the employees of the year; of the 3 years.

Spinland
08-02-2017, 04:34 PM
Can you please post some of ot here, would love to have a look!


I threw a couple of pieces up on the LW positive stories thread. More to come as NDA allows. I know I'm hardly among the best of the folks here but I get the job done, do it well, and the clients are happy. That's the bottom line for me. ;)

50one
08-02-2017, 04:35 PM
Not sure why you're including me on this, I have nothing to do with marketing.

That's a bit wrong approach.

"Not my monkeys" correct would be "hey! I'm not part of the marketing team bit rest assured we're working on next version and it's coming along nicely, if you want to discuss anything drop us a line or give us a phone"

Matt
08-02-2017, 06:23 PM
That's a bit wrong approach.

"Not my monkeys" correct would be "hey! I'm not part of the marketing team bit rest assured we're working on next version and it's coming along nicely, if you want to discuss anything drop us a line or give us a phone"

As I say, any official statements need to come from marketing

Snosrap
08-02-2017, 07:28 PM
As I say, any official statements need to come from marketing

There's a marketing team? :confused:

jaf
08-02-2017, 07:31 PM
But marketing isn't marketing!

jwiede
08-02-2017, 07:41 PM
As I say, any official statements need to come from marketing

Who is in charge of LW marketing, and how do customers contact that person?

Snosrap
08-02-2017, 08:19 PM
Who is in charge of LW marketing, and how do customers contact that person?

[email protected] :):):)

Seriously though - last I knew it was Will Waters - Director of Product Marketing. Whether LW is part of that, who knows.

Gungho3D
08-02-2017, 09:15 PM
Yes, hang in there. Remember the alternative is to either starve to death or rent a pizza to look at. :D

What does that mean? Now pizza has gone down the subscription path as well? ... :-)

sami
08-02-2017, 11:00 PM
There's a marketing team? :confused:

M. Night Shamalayan Twist:

There is no marketing team - or they're all ghosts.

TreyX
08-02-2017, 11:28 PM
yo, peeps. why all the stress? yeah, newtek's marketing sucks (sorry, newtek, but it's true. ya gotta realize that by now and hopefully take some steps to get the right people in charge of outreach, update your site, and basically re-brand yourselves. when you see angst in your loyal user base, hiding behind the shrubbery and going dark is really a stupid move and puts power in your competitors to eat into your very valuable market share... :twak: i've been doing marketing for almost 30 years, and i know a terrible marketing team when i see one. and usually, the crap is flowing downhill from the top... some rough luv for my fav app developers, but is needed and hopefully heard).

at the same time, even tho i know that an update IS in the works, i really love what i've already got, so i'm not freaking out like so many i've seen on the forum lately. i'm not sure if y'all are afraid that NT is going out of business, or what. :confused: it's just kind of a major bummer to come here in the midst of an angry hornets nest.

my recommendation to the community is to use your AWESOME lightwave suite and make some $$$$. enjoy working with our fav app. pick up some kewl new plugins and have FUN (i've been building up my lightwave arsenal for the last couple of months, and am having a great time doing it!). leave the stress at the door and do something wonderful that makes you a better artist and professional. the next generation of lw is coming - and even if it doesn't, wtf. i've put together a killer suite that can do anything i want it to do, and i own everything in perpetual, so i'm set for the next couple years anyway.

:yingyang: now, i've got 2 deadlines coming up, so i'm getting back to work and making some $$$. without that, i can't buy more kewl plugins and lightwave 20whatev when it finally launches. :lightwave

50one
08-03-2017, 12:17 AM
Who ate those people?! Let me beat them with a stick! :P

Farhad_azer
08-03-2017, 12:26 AM
I could not agree more TreyX. Very well said.

Hail
08-03-2017, 01:14 AM
As I say, any official statements need to come from marketing

Joke of the day. lol.

mav3rick
08-03-2017, 02:38 AM
if there is little humanity in Newtek i hope they find good parents for lightwave3d and let it be adopted .
No offense but looks like they dont give a penny about it since? since... i cant rmmbr anymore.. years looks like eternity to me... way before Core:devil: i would say.
So in order to keep at least 10-20 of us blind users that keep faith we are kindly asking you to find lightwave better place to live.

graviel
08-03-2017, 02:47 AM
Who needs marketing? U don't need marketing, what u need is a software release.
Meanwhile Newtek should hire a psychotherapist for community management.

Please don't suicide, guys don't do it, it is not worth it.
Maybe we should try some yoga.

50one
08-03-2017, 03:29 AM
Joke of the day. lol.

This comes to mind.https://media.giphy.com/media/zjQrmdlR9ZCM/giphy.gif

Haha, take care buddies.

samurai_x
08-03-2017, 03:42 AM
Just delivered two draft animations to clients, using Lightwave, and the feedback was "amazing." Tomorrow I start on the main production scenes.

It's just a tool, mang. Get the job done, how you do it is in the noise. ;D

You're really sounding like a noob cg artist who just became pro.
People want to know about lightwave not some unrelated project some guy somewhere is doing in multiple threads.

samurai_x
08-03-2017, 03:47 AM
Not sure why you're including me on this, I have nothing to do with marketing.

FIRE your marketing. They're the most out of touch, old fashioned, team to ever handle a product for the last decade. Are they in their 50's?
Even the most obscure product has better marketing than Lightwave.

Asticles
08-03-2017, 04:05 AM
Facebook is also getting some complaints. And it is a much broader medium than this forums.

I think tomorrow I'm going to Modo maintenance. I will wait today because is the last day of SIGGRAPH.

Marander
08-03-2017, 05:09 AM
...I think tomorrow I'm going to Modo maintenance. I will wait today because is the last day of SIGGRAPH.

I think this is a reasonable decision. If I would not have switched my main workflow before, this would be the time for me too.

gar26lw
08-03-2017, 05:14 AM
As I say, any official statements need to come from marketing


Is it worth it to submit ideas about the 2015.3 ux or is it too late for any of that?

Asticles
08-03-2017, 05:33 AM
I think this is a reasonable decision. If I would not have switched my main workflow before, this would be the time for me too.

The problem is I have kray licenses that I won't use anymore.
I've tested extensively the progressive render and I've found the way to get good renders with good speed. I don't like the bucket because if there is any surprise I've lost a lot of time.

A pity that currently preview render is not working with network rendering, but this could change.
Let's see what LW3DG makes today.

gar26lw
08-03-2017, 05:46 AM
The problem is I have kray licenses that I won't use anymore.
I've tested extensively the progressive render and I've found the way to get good renders with good speed. I don't like the bucket because if there is any surprise I've lost a lot of time.

A pity that currently preview render is not working with network rendering, but this could change.
Let's see what LW3DG makes today.

What were the best settings for the progressive renderer?

SBowie
08-03-2017, 05:48 AM
You're really sounding like a noob cg artist who just became pro.
People want to know about lightwave not some unrelated project some guy somewhere is doing in multiple threads.There's nothing inappropriate or offensive about Spinland's post. You may disagree with his premise, but responding with a put-down is unnecessarily provocative. Kindly knock it off.

shrox
08-03-2017, 05:50 AM
yo, peeps. why all the stress? yeah, newtek's marketing sucks (sorry, newtek, but it's true. ya gotta realize that by now and hopefully take some steps to get the right people in charge of outreach, update your site, and basically re-brand yourselves. when you see angst in your loyal user base, hiding behind the shrubbery and going dark is really a stupid move and puts power in your competitors to eat into your very valuable market share... :twak: i've been doing marketing for almost 30 years, and i know a terrible marketing team when i see one. and usually, the crap is flowing downhill from the top... some rough luv for my fav app developers, but is needed and hopefully heard).

at the same time, even tho i know that an update IS in the works, i really love what i've already got, so i'm not freaking out like so many i've seen on the forum lately. i'm not sure if y'all are afraid that NT is going out of business, or what. :confused: it's just kind of a major bummer to come here in the midst of an angry hornets nest.

my recommendation to the community is to use your AWESOME lightwave suite and make some $$$$. enjoy working with our fav app. pick up some kewl new plugins and have FUN (i've been building up my lightwave arsenal for the last couple of months, and am having a great time doing it!). leave the stress at the door and do something wonderful that makes you a better artist and professional. the next generation of lw is coming - and even if it doesn't, wtf. i've put together a killer suite that can do anything i want it to do, and i own everything in perpetual, so i'm set for the next couple years anyway.

:yingyang: now, i've got 2 deadlines coming up, so i'm getting back to work and making some $$$. without that, i can't buy more kewl plugins and lightwave 20whatev when it finally launches. :lightwave

Yes.

Asticles
08-03-2017, 06:01 AM
What were the best settings for the progressive renderer?

I sent you a pm of what I'm using.

Spinland
08-03-2017, 06:31 AM
You're really sounding like a noob cg artist who just became pro.
People want to know about lightwave not some unrelated project some guy somewhere is doing in multiple threads.

Seriously? Your opinion. Mine is you have no idea what you're on about. It's all good. I'm glad you appointed yourself qualified to speak for "people." I'm sure they'd not know what they wanted without your sage guidance. Heh. ;D

I'd go on about what you're really sounding like, but there's no point. It's obvious, and not constructive to point out. ;)

Spinland
08-03-2017, 06:38 AM
There's nothing inappropriate or offensive about Spinland's post. You may disagree with his premise, but responding with a put-down is unnecessarily provocative. Kindly knock it off.

Heh. Thanks for the support, Steve. I raised three kids to adulthood, I'm familiar with the acting out when they get hormonal and bored. ;)

Snosrap
08-03-2017, 06:40 AM
FIRE your marketing. They're the most out of touch, old fashioned, team to ever handle a product for the last decade. Are they in their 50's?

Watch it now! I'm in my 50's and I am awesome! :)

Farhad_azer
08-03-2017, 06:44 AM
I envy you dear snosrap bec i am in my 30's and i suck.

Surrealist.
08-03-2017, 07:03 AM
Pizza analogy. Same toppings, different thread crust.

50one
08-03-2017, 07:04 AM
I envy you dear snosrap bec i am in my 30's and i suck.

No one sucks more than vacuum.

shrox
08-03-2017, 07:10 AM
Watch it now! I'm in my 50's and I am awesome! :)

I am 53 and I often get questioned about whether I am "old enough" to be using my AARP discount card...15% off at Denny's!

Spinland
08-03-2017, 07:12 AM
LOL! I'm late 50s and love it here. Bumps, bruises and scars...they're honorable war wounds and got me where I am today. I do enjoy interacting with marketers in the "Millennial" age group, though: they often have bright, fun ideas that are killer fun to animate.

I'm going to apologize to the board for my snarky comments above. Not productive. Never post before the morning's first cuppa. My bad.

While waiting for lotsa files to finish transferring to my laptop (heading out soon for a string of business meetings in a city about an hour away and intend to be productive between them) I'd like to leave this thread with some thoughts. Please, block, ignore, simply decline to read, whatever suits you if you're uninterested. It's all good.

From the perspective of a retired military officer I imbue the term "professional" with a very specific range of meaning. Getting paid for your work, and having sufficient skill to perform it...those are important aspects, but not all, nor even (as I was raised to believe) not the most important.

I was raised, and trained, to believe the most important aspects of professionalism are your attitude, your demeanor, and your behavior. From that perspective, and based on a large percentage of what goes on in these forums (not on anything Newtek is or isn't doing), I might be tempted to share in the generally-perceived climate of feeling the ranks of actual LW professionals are growing thin.

Then I remember that the people out here actually doing stuff, making things happen, and using LW as a large part of their tool set...are probably both too busy and uninterested in participating in the rash of nonsense that sometimes threatens to overwhelm the posts that contain actual, meaningful content. For my part I am too busy, and should be uninterested, but I have a character flaw that compels me to step into what I see as nonsense and try to set the record straight. That's both presumptuous on my part and most likely casting proverbial pearls before swine. Waste of my time, and of yours.

So, I shall pull my head out of the inappropriate orifice in which it currently resides, unsubscribe from this thread, and leave you to...whatever it is you think you're accomplishing here.

Rock on! :jam:

Mark

TheLexx
08-03-2017, 07:58 AM
Good stuff. I must say you've really made that guitar icon your own. Just doesn't look the same when I try it.

SBowie
08-03-2017, 09:36 AM
Heh. Thanks for the support, Steve. I raised three kids to adulthood, I'm familiar with the acting out when they get hormonal and bored. ;)Just my duty to encourage people to keep it between the yellow lines ...

GandB
08-03-2017, 09:45 AM
There's a marketing team for Lightwave? Could have fooled me/us. Perhaps someone could wake them up.

SBowie
08-03-2017, 10:14 AM
There's a marketing team for Lightwave? Could have fooled me/us. Perhaps someone could wake them up.I am sympathetic to the mounting frustration at the dearth of information to chew on, but really, surely it is clear that marketing marches to orders from higher up, and if those orders are (for whatever reason) "hush", I cannot find it in my heart to assign the blame to marketing peeps.

KevinL
08-03-2017, 11:27 AM
I too have stuck it out, and made the mistake of spending the 495.00 on updating from 11.6 to 205, incorrectly thinking the old update model was in place. Stupid, stupid, stupid... hopefully I've finally learned my lesson regarding Newtek.

Ernest
08-03-2017, 11:53 AM
I am sympathetic to the mounting frustration at the dearth of information to chew on, but really, surely it is clear that marketing marches to orders from higher up, and if those orders are (for whatever reason) "hush", I cannot find it in my heart to assign the blame to marketing peeps.

This is so confusing. Why would you have a marketing team and tell them to hush for months and months. What is the use of a marketing team that is hushed? Literally the only use of a marketing team is transmitting messages. If you're going to tell your marketing team to remain silent and invisible, surely, it would make more sense to use that money to add an extra topping to your pizza, or something.

Marander
08-03-2017, 11:59 AM
I too have stuck it out, and made the mistake of spending the 495.00 on updating from 11.6 to 205, incorrectly thinking the old update model was in place. Stupid, stupid, stupid... hopefully I've finally learned my lesson regarding Newtek.

Yes that's exactly my frustration besides the silence and long development. Very long ago we were told that it's the last chance, only lasting some days and we should be current. The upgrade price for non-current versions was set at $795 if I'm not mistaken. I only upgraded to 2015 because of the initial offer to upgrade.

Very interesting looking volumetric renders were presented and some text about the new features. I was very exited and would have upgraded blindly back then, even if only in beta phase.

Following this were endless promotions with the same advertising (stay current, last chance, upgrade now, few days, add a seat etc.) and a handful blog posts.

More than a year ago - No in March 2016 we were told that the release in getting closer and the demo material is prepared etc.

"Forgive the delay in new blog posts but as we move closer to release it requires some increased focus on development, marketing, sales, and related details but finally we have a new blog post for you."

So, I don't believe anything anymore coming from LW3DG.

Asticles
08-03-2017, 11:59 AM
This is so confusing. Why would you have a marketing team and tell them to hush for months and months. What is the use of a marketing team that is hushed? Literally the only use of a marketing team is transmitting messages. If you're going to tell your marketing team to remain silent and invisible, surely, it would make more sense to use that money to add an extra topping to your pizza, or something.

Edited: I've publicy said that I'm leaving Lightwave in favor of modo if they don't offer today LWNEXT. And if they are doing their job, I should receive an email about that. If not, well, tomorrow I will be fully modonaut.

TreyX
08-03-2017, 12:02 PM
I am 53 and I often get questioned about whether I am "old enough" to be using my AARP discount card...15% off at Denny's!

ha! i'm 52 this year, and i just started getting aarp bulk mail adverts as well. i keep thinking about Pris' line in bladerunner about aging being "accelerated decrepitude". so, i refuse to decrepit as much as i can, and think young (hell, i just completed a video series for a youth skilled trades career program, and i heard that the high school kids i filmed thought i was "cool". haha. so i guess i'm not a grumpy old fart after all....) :eek:


Watch it now! I'm in my 50's and I am awesome! :)

abso-fckn-lootley! i'm with ya! :boogiedow

wingzeta
08-03-2017, 12:24 PM
I can wait for the next release. It is ready when it's ready. I can use the current version to do what I need to do. I plan to stick with LW as long as I can, so the bad communication shouldn't be a problem for me right? Wrong, by pissing off other customers, it affects me too, because if the user base shrinks due to this foolishness, further development can't be funded. If some of the most knowledgeable people in the community get fed up and move on, I lose the benefit of their knowledge, techniques and tutorials. If it shrinks too much, it may no longer be worth it for some of the great third party plugin developers to keep developing for LW, then I lose those capabilities as soon as they break due to anything from a change in LW to an OS update.

You can't release until it's ready. That is understood, however, communication is key to grease the wheels of the relationship with the customers. Treating customers as the enemy is bad business, period. Multiple customers are flat out telling you, they are moving on to your competitors. How much more clear can it be that this policy has failed, and is insulting to customers?

Over
08-03-2017, 12:57 PM
I'm starting to relate age with the desire to wait for Next.:p

Any of you below 40?

cagey5
08-03-2017, 01:05 PM
Are we talking age or IQ?

Schwyhart
08-03-2017, 01:15 PM
I'm 28, but I'm also a nobody in the 3D world. Most of my work is in video production.

TheLexx
08-03-2017, 01:34 PM
I can wait for the next release. It is ready when it's ready. I can use the current version to do what I need to do. I plan to stick with LW as long as I can, so the bad communication shouldn't be a problem for me right?I actually agreed with that bit, but diverged with the rest.

There are the companies which did communicate with their customers along the lines of, "In order to provide a better service to our valued customers, screw you because we are going down this road whether you like it or not". Autodesk and Adobe are the main ones who spring to mind. Autodesk communicated to their customers they were going to kill off Softimage.......then executed it at the appointed time. Face Robot didn't even get a last cigarette ! And I'm amazed how Foundry seem to have nine lives over this sort of thing - there was zero communication when Modo owners were in both panic and limbo over new owners of the company, and zero warning over the licence changes, no grace period or anything.

Also, I inadvertently set of a mine by mentioning Kat's enthusiasm about Lightwave Next, where people seemed to call out Kat's "attitude". Is it fair to suggest a bit of unhealthy attitude is being increasingly expressed here (not aimed specifically at you wingzeta) ? Not everyone is doing the same work, so LW Next is not going to be the Holy Grail for everyone anyway.

If anyone is genuinely that frustrated, here is the link (https://www.foundry.com/products/modo/purchase)to skip off to Modoland Meadow, where the grass is much greener and the sun always shines. You will even be greeted by a wise sage bearing his Polystein Kit. Assert your right, just as Newtek has the right to remain silent. Otherwise why not buy RH's cheap-as-chips face rig (http://www.rebelhill.net/html/ffob.html)and have a play with that in your existing software. Even if LW Next doesn't land for another two years, plugins and hardware improvements are turbocharging the existing software.

Difficult to put a smilie after this post, so I'll opt for the shades to pretend someone else said it. :cool:

Over
08-03-2017, 01:36 PM
Are we talking age or IQ?

Interesting Question...

But age would do.

pinkmouse
08-03-2017, 02:11 PM
...Any of you below 40?

Waist size, yes. ;)

TreyX
08-03-2017, 02:16 PM
I actually agreed with that bit, but diverged with the rest.

There are the companies which did communicate with their customers along the lines of, "In order to provide a better service to our valued customers, screw you because we are going down this road whether you like it or not". Autodesk and Adobe are the main ones who spring to mind. Autodesk communicated to their customers they were going to kill off Softimage.......then executed it at the appointed time. Face Robot didn't even get a last cigarette ! And I'm amazed how Foundry seem to have nine lives over this sort of thing - there was zero communication when Modo owners were in both panic and limbo over new owners of the company, and zero warning over the licence changes, no grace period or anything.

Also, I inadvertently set of a mine by mentioning Kat's enthusiasm about Lightwave Next, where people seemed to call out Kat's "attitude". Is it fair to suggest a bit of unhealthy attitude is being increasingly expressed here (not aimed specifically at you wingzeta) ? Not everyone is doing the same work, so LW Next is not going to be the Holy Grail for everyone anyway.

If anyone is genuinely that frustrated, here is the link (https://www.foundry.com/products/modo/purchase)to skip off to Modoland Meadow, where the grass is much greener and the sun always shines. You will even be greeted by a wise sage bearing his Polystein Kit. Assert your right, just as Newtek has the right to remain silent. Otherwise why not buy RH's cheap-as-chips face rig (http://www.rebelhill.net/html/ffob.html)and have a play with that in your existing software. Even if LW Next doesn't land for another two years, plugins and hardware improvements are turbocharging the existing software.

Difficult to put a smilie after this post, so I'll opt for the shades to pretend someone else said it. :cool:

interesting take, Lexx. i like your thinking. i too can give a rat's left testicle when the next LW version is released, as i have built a sweeeeet plugin suite that has made LW a fkng powerhouse. and with upgrading my Particular license to the newly released v3, now have OBJ particle emitter cap's in AE, so can export LW objects as OBJ, then bring them in to Particular 3 and emit from points, polys, edges or volume, expanding my LW+AE pipeline. not only that, but i've taken the rec's of some awesome LWers on plugins that have killed in their professional work, so plunked down some serious coin in expanding LW core to be a maya-equivalent studio.

i don't care about modo or blender, i have maya & C4D, but will prob sit with C4D R18 for a while as that suits me just fine, as i'm investing more into my LW/extensions (i own all of the latter in perpetuality-- i love that aspect!!). i think part of the problem was the totally misguided marketing blunder @ newtek about putting a year at the end instead of v.* number, which instantly boxed newtek into releasing a new version every year or facing the wrath of a vocal minority with so much time on their hands that all they can do is come here and complain. had newtek just stuck with the 11.3, 12. or whatev, they could push out minor bug fixes and enhancements and the masses would have an entirely different perception. but dating themselves with v.2015 just backfired, and some just can't get over it. if they absolutely MUST go to another app because it has maintenance fees and yearly (if even minor) version releases, then all the power to 'em. as soon as there is a hiccup in their new beloved app's schedule, they'll raise holy fire and brimstone, spew threats, and jump ship to the next one, and so on.... the grass is always greener x-infinity.

i'm loyal to what works for me, and LW works beautifully. i'm delighted with the extension cap's, and am making it into what works for my style and clients. that's what's really important anyway, as i'm not a sheep blindly following over the cliff kind of guy. i'm more the wolf that helps kick the sheep over the cliff in order to create a more tranquil, less crowded and peaceful world for myself. haha! :devil: i gotta admit, i left the LW community forums many years ago because of all of the negativity from users complaining that LW was not maya, modo, ad nausea. now, i've been back for a short while, and am seeing the same negativity. fool me once shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me.

$$$time for me to get back to work and make some coin - got some gigs in the queue.$$$

Asticles
08-03-2017, 02:26 PM
It seems to me that prejudging others is not the most appropriate for a conversation in a forum, whether or not having limited capabilities.

Surrealist.
08-03-2017, 02:55 PM
Multiple customers are flat out telling you, they are moving on to your competitors. How much more clear can it be that this policy has failed, and is insulting to customers?

Multiple? How many exactly? I would hold in question a conclusion that states most people would leave because of LW 3D Group choosing not to communicate. I would say more of a minority really.

They have not been completely silent or non existent. There have been updates. Lino has shared work he is doing with the software and so on.

They have just refused now to say anything at all on the subject of a release date.

And it is not hard to work out why that is - right now especially. ;)

stiff paper
08-03-2017, 02:59 PM
Waist size, yes. ;)
Stop.

gjjackson
08-03-2017, 03:05 PM
Geez, can't we give this a break already. There are still many using LW in their pipeline and NOT complaining. Considering what Newtek is doing it requires a Major code rewrite and the difficulty involved with Legacy code. It's not as if you can pull out some code and insert new code. It is likely there were issues that had Never came up before and Only surfaced in a rewrite. That can compound itself one on top of another. The Legacy code in LW is of a different structure that modern code writing and that compounds the issue. It is much more difficult to take old code and modify it to existing constructs. It's very labor intensive and often frustrating. People need to just relax and chill out and quit being whiners.

Surrealist.
08-03-2017, 03:30 PM
Yeah I would agree but.... well actually I do agree. The "but", comes in the form of... These exact points have been made over and over and over again ad nauseam. I have made them myself. Oh I don't know, going on a number of years now.

But either people refuse to listen. Or don't want to admit it and then they rather just invent a timeline that seems reasonable to them. Once things go past that tolerance, they voice frustration.

I have seen the same people who make the biggest beef about the silence, also argue the loudest about a time estimate. (as well as predictions of what should be able to be done on the next release) Seems to go hand in hand. "Can't be that hard, and should be done now. Something must be wrong. Hey you have not been communicating enough. We need more updates"

And so it goes.

It has to do with a different tolerance of time, which equates to a different tolerance of frequency of communication. ;)

Chris S. (Fez)
08-03-2017, 04:14 PM
There are ways to tactfully keep the community engaged without tipping off the competition or taking time away from testing and development and launch marketing. Blog posts featuring screenshots and a few words or teasers to get the community excited and talking. Remember Worley's image of the keyboard missing the F9?

gjjackson
08-03-2017, 04:39 PM
As an Instructor of Computer Graphics from UC Davis once said regarding programming in CGI, paraphrased, It's not as difficult to create the geometry in CGI but the difficulty lies in making the result "look" good.

jeric_synergy
08-03-2017, 05:05 PM
Face Robot didn't even get a last cigarette !
What makes it sadder is, it's one of the few apps that could have used one.

gar26lw
08-03-2017, 05:38 PM
There are ways to tactfully keep the community engaged without tipping off the competition or taking time away from testing and development and launch marketing. Blog posts featuring screenshots and a few words or teasers to get the community excited and talking. Remember Worley's image of the keyboard missing the F9?

I really don't think the competition cares. That example of worley and f9. That's a good idea!

wingzeta
08-03-2017, 11:43 PM
The point of my post was to say that I can, and will, wait for the release, I'm a LW diehard, however the communication is unprofessional, and that can damage a software already struggling to be seen as a professional tool in the industry (it is a great tool we know, but marketing is about imparting that perception to those who think otherwise, or are unsure.) I gave reasons why professionalism matters, such as keeping high end users in the community, which helps us all with advanced tutorials, and keeping LW relevant to plugin developers, so they don't drop the platform. As far as users losing patience with LW3DG communication...

Have you seen this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvlzdUdLqXc

Nothing wrong with learning something new, but he says in the comments, the communication problem is at least one part of his motivation to move on to other tools. That is one of the most diehard active users, who offers help and tool tips here all the time, really part of the backbone of this community. I have appreciated his exploratory videos examining different plugins very much, some of them made in response to a user's question within the hour. I hope he sticks around. If you want to deny that the silence has a negative effect, beyond just causing people to *****, I guess that is your right, but it doesn't seem to adhere to what is happening. Just saying. LW3DG, or Tim J should take steps to fix the problem.

Surrealist.
08-04-2017, 12:25 AM
It has a considerable amount more of a negative effect when all some people do is continue to harp on the fact that it has a negative effect.

The actual amount of people who leave due to this is very small.

Most people have actually more legitimate reasons to use other software.

Most all of the heavy die hard users left LightWave long ago.

This is a fact.

Why did they go?

Because it was obvious that LightWave was not going to be fixed in a reasonable time frame.

That time frame is not a few years or even 5. It is and was a 15 to 20 year plan.

And the sooner people own up to that the better.

The irony is that they are working hard to fix this problem. And they are sticking to the realistic long range plan.

But people want to pretend this is some normal release. It is far from that. And can only be compared to other projects of comparable magnitude. Modo is the perfect example.

People are using LightWave now because it works for them.

Most people looking for some of the rigging and animation or modeling tools already left.

None of those issues will be addressed any time soon.

So that leaves people who are Ok with LW as it is.

So it makes no sense that most people would leave due to less frequent updates.

People can state what they want online. That is their perogative. But I don't really buy it.

If you are going to another tool it is because it gives you something you need.

You don't leave a tool because the devs stopped talking to you

That is a little absurd from a practical stand point. So for me I see it as more of an excuse to get off one"s butt and learns something new.

When LW gets new tools that these people need, practical logic suggests they will make that tool available to them.

TreyX
08-04-2017, 12:56 AM
Most all of the heavy die hard users left LightWave long ago.

This is a fact.



well, i'm still here. and i'm a diehard LW user since 1995. i use it because i love it, and because i own it perpetually and it makes me money. :heart:

Surrealist.
08-04-2017, 01:31 AM
Sure. You are one of these people. :


So that leaves people who are Ok with LW as it is.


And you are in good company. A lot of great artists still around. :) Lino is one of them. ;)

But there are still these people:


Most all of the heavy die hard users left LightWave long ago.

This is a fact.

Why did they go?

Because it was obvious that LightWave was not going to be fixed in a reasonable time frame.



And I am one of them. Using other software since 2008. And a user since 1992-3.

But I have the good sense to know that:


When LW gets new tools that these people need, practical logic suggests they will make that tool available to them.

Which has already happened to me several times over the years since 2008 from v.10- v2015 and continues to happen with LightWave.

I expect that to continue.

So there are many kinds of LightWave users.;)

But people don't leave LightWave due to lack of communication. They leave to get other tools.

nmh
08-04-2017, 01:46 AM
i was diehard LW user since LW 4.0 (sorry don't remember the year) and i already moved to modo last year. so i don't care about LW anymore. i am just curious when and what will they say. maybe something like "buy/upgrade to LW2015 in 24 hour and you will have 10% discount to LWnext upgrade!" (which nobody knows when it will be out). LW marketing team (if they really exists): enjoy the silence

graviel
08-04-2017, 02:11 AM
I am 36 and already care just nothing about marketing. Back in the stone age Cg guys were creative nerds reinventing the wheel all the time in order to workaround software constraints. Nowadays we just choose industry standards and stack to a pre defined workflow, and need to be signified by our software, expecting marketing metanarratives to name us professionally trendy. Well, that's the generational gap, better to acknowledge it. However, I am still very willing to be and old fart stinking better than anyone else.

I3D
08-04-2017, 02:13 AM
Hi Guys

I'm going to give you an advice, I've worked on LW since the Amiga days, notice that past tens. For the majority of my professional career I was always drawn to interesting application that somehow ended up in a spectacular failure: TrueSpace, ElectricImage, Messiah3D, Softimage, Animation Master, Imagine (Anyone remembers this one?) and finally Lightwave. I know there's a pattern, I'm just lucky enough my real-life relationships are the complete opposite and long lasting.

The underlying similarity amongest all of the above failed, or deceased products is either the parent company had a different star product (hint, Avid, hint hint Microsoft, hint hint hint Autodesk, hint^3264 Newtek) or the developers are just plain and simple stubborn drama queens who honestly don't give two cents about the customer (hint^98939483943 Fori from Messiah3D, I could name a few as well)

Here's the thing though, building a commercial product and failing is normal and nothing wrong with that, it really is. What's not normal and healthy is for the community, or some community members to keep torturing themselves thinking one day the product keepers will wake up one day and actually do something good for the customer. However this loyalty and persistence is what's actually fueling and encouraging this bad behavior from companies like Newtek and the rest. Don't forget the negative commercial effect these companies are doing to your business while your competitors are actually doing fine by leaps and bounds instead of you.

Do yourself a huge favor mate and stop romanticizing the relationship with the product you use and move on. For Newtek you are just a "C U S T O M E R" with a big fat $$$$ next to his name, so do business with a company and a technology partner that respects that. Trust me you'll feel better, your business will feel better, your family will feel better and everyone around you will.

Cheers

graviel
08-04-2017, 02:29 AM
Did I read Fori? Yes abandonware starts by developers focusing on something else. The problem has to do with a mismatch between personal priorities and the business itself. Messiah and Silo grew angry communities pucking venom online, even though Silo released 2 updates this year yet it will remain painfully dead in the hearts of everyone. There are millions of wannabe entrepreneurs dreaming to have a product to sell, yet CG nerds move on abandoning both a product and a customer base. Cause developers should focuse on development, and those enterprise were too small for anything else, no matter how good the product was. However none of those cases fit Newtek, we are talking about entirely different corporate models, and even if (as some people seem to feel) their marketing is not fitting the expectations of the younger generations, there is a structure already in place. Quiting LW would at least require a group decision and wont just fade in time cause the only developer dude is professionally excited with the next project or has a bigger loan to pay for.

Surrealist.
08-04-2017, 02:43 AM
Well you have to have a product to market. No product, no marketing. For the product that exists, LightWave 2015.3 marketing is alive and well. Monthly newsletters Facebook activity and so on. Really strange that people keep using the word marketing when there is no such thing now for the next version.

Amazingly, there is as much information about the next version of LightWave that as you will get with any other software. And ironically, this is the only time in LightWave history that I am aware of that there has been this much information available about a product in development (outside of beta forums).

And yet. This is not good enough. And marketing is all wrong because they are not marketing a product that does not exist and are unwilling to give an estimate for something they can not estimate.

Until the next version is here, there is 2015.3. I am sure they are willing to talk to you all day about that. Go to the website, go to Facebook. Call them.

That is what marketing is. In the olden days we used to refer to marketing a product that did not exist as vaporware.

So to be clear to those still confused. There is currently no marketing for LightWave Next. What we do have is the developers deciding to open up to us per user request. They have stated it exists. But until it is released it is nothing more than vaporware. And people stating this team should be fired have forgotten the first rule of marketing which is you have to have a product first. They would be insane to try and market vaporware.

Lino, as the best example, has been frequent in letting us in on current productions using the next version of LightWave and the features.

But this is not marketing. This is just a user who has been allowed to showcase work made with a software in development. And in a sense, sure this is a bit of a marketing angle. And again as much or more as you'd ever get from another product in development.

I3D
08-04-2017, 02:44 AM
Hey @graviel, Yup you read that right, Fori, a brilliant engineer with -1000 degree emotional intelligence. I once proposed buying Messiah3D source code from him, the money aroused his curiosity and he actually replied with first complaining about the community not understanding him, then he stopped answering my email, maybe the price wasn't big enough to buy his self worth. anyway!!!

Newtek is a company that is selling two products, meaning two revenue streams, one is growing, which is the hardware side, and the other one I believe have thing margins due to heavy competition. Newtek hardware gets updated and released 2-3 times a year, while the software part is given the last priority, which is evident by the putting it on the marketing team. The marketing answers to management, and it's a management decision to allocate resources to product with the biggest margins. LW is in the same boat as SI was, Microsoft first bought for God knows what reason, lost interest and sold it to Avid, a worse company with a flag ship product that is dying, they bought SI for 200+ million and sold it to Autodesk for 20 million!! That's how much they cared about the 3D product vs the aging and dying editing product.

A group quitting will be the best thing to happen to LW, I could only imagine what it feels to be in the LW team working under Newtek right now, we should put them out of their misery.

Marander
08-04-2017, 02:48 AM
So to be clear to those still confused. There is currently no marketing for LightWave next. What we do have is the developers deciding to open up to us per user request. They have stated it exists. But until it is released it is nothing more than vaporware...

False information, as I mentioned before, information from March 2016(!):

"Forgive the delay in new blog posts but as we move closer to release it requires some increased focus on development, marketing, sales, and related details but finally we have a new blog post for you."

Siggraph is over and so is my patience with LW. I actually expected it for NAB or Siggraph last year. Bye

I3D
08-04-2017, 02:50 AM
False information, as I mentioned before, information from March 2016(!):

"Forgive the delay in new blog posts but as we move closer to release it requires some increased focus on development, marketing, sales, and related details but finally we have a new blog post for you."

It must be one hell of a blog post mate, sh*t 17 months in the making, it must be gold plated :D

I3D
08-04-2017, 02:55 AM
I don't know why I'm even getting involved, sorry about this guys, every year at SIGGRAPH I get nostalgic about failing products. Cary on with your life and I'll carry on with mine.

Cheers

Surrealist.
08-04-2017, 02:56 AM
False information, as I mentioned before, information from March 2016(!):

"Forgive the delay in new blog posts but as we move closer to release it requires some increased focus on development, marketing, sales, and related details but finally we have a new blog post for you."

Siggraph is over on so is my patience with LW. I actually expected it for NAB or Siggraph last year. Bye

Preperation for marketing. Sorry. You are wrong here. Of course they are prepping for it. But they are not yet marketing it. Until released it does not exist. And if it does exist and they are truly ready to market something, that means they have to prep and plan for that. But if there has been a hang up in development (beta feedback bugs etc) then marketing plans are pushed back. Or if planning and prep for marketing (which includes documentation and web development) is also delayed, the release will be delayed.

Simple as that.

No release date. No marketing. No Marketing. No release date.

shrox
08-04-2017, 07:07 AM
Well, I just got picked for a really big US governmental deal. I am using Lightwave to do it. When I say "big", I mean historically, nationally big. Like wow big.

Lightwave. Yes.

mav3rick
08-04-2017, 08:25 AM
good for you... now back on lw next...

hrgiger
08-04-2017, 08:30 AM
All I have to say is that after this wait and their sputtered out attempt at marketing with their blog (which started out strong then faded into obscurity), in the end there had better be some legal reason or otherwise restricting reason for LW3DG to remain almost completely silent about what is holding up this release. I'm really getting sick of people justifying the wait for stability or making it the 'best release ever'. That's crap at this point. Last year if they had said we need another few to even several months to polish up the stability or new features, I'd say ok that's perfectly reasonable but its now another year on top of that and not even an inkling as to how far away we are from a release. I'm also really getting tired of the 'just use 2015 and be productive' crap. I don't expect them to put out a release 3 times a year like Foundry does for Modo but its not even fully about features either, we need bug fixes for our current software and I figure we're not getting any more of those until LightWave next ships. Because when its finally released (if its going to be), how long until the next release? Are we going to have to endure this again?

Sorry if you're offended or feel like the need to defend LW but some of us here actually do want to see LW improve and just because we're not constantly throwing praise at LW doesn't mean that we don't use it or don't love it. We likely wouldn't be posting here otherwise. But LW3DG, unless you're somehow legally bound to not say anything, maybe its time to get off your a$s and address the Iceburg of a marketing disaster you've struck with your silence.

KevinL
08-04-2017, 08:36 AM
TreyX: While I feel your mellow groove... and do get mileage outta da stack now in play :) I also think it's very OK to bust the chops of the folks who keep playing us with story's and promises. My usage dates from 93' and this has been pretty much the play from the start. Every once in a while they come along with a little vigor and get us all stirred up, only to let the line get slack :)

Yes, I know that it very much parallels the abusive relationship model, and I should just find a new partner, but I still love the "idea" of them. Looking for a good therapist, and a partner worthy of my love.

(NOTE: this is tongue in cheek, for those who might be a little bit inclined to the too literal)

Kevin L

GandB
08-04-2017, 08:37 AM
^^ Exactly HRGiger.

Asticles
08-04-2017, 08:46 AM
All I have to say is that after this wait and their sputtered out attempt at marketing with their blog (which started out strong then faded into obscurity), in the end there had better be some legal reason or otherwise restricting reason for LW3DG to remain almost completely silent about what is holding up this release. I'm really getting sick of people justifying the wait for stability or making it the 'best release ever'. That's crap at this point. Last year if they had said we need another few to even several months to polish up the stability or new features, I'd say ok that's perfectly reasonable but its now another year on top of that and not even an inkling as to how far away we are from a release. I'm also really getting tired of the 'just use 2015 and be productive' crap. I don't expect them to put out a release 3 times a year like Foundry does for Modo but its not even fully about features either, we need bug fixes for our current software and I figure we're not getting any more of those until LightWave next ships. Because when its finally released (if its going to be), how long until the next release? Are we going to have to endure this again?

Sorry if you're offended or feel like the need to defend LW but some of us here actually do want to see LW improve and just because we're not constantly throwing praise at LW doesn't mean that we don't use it or don't love it. We likely wouldn't be posting here otherwise. But LW3DG, unless you're somehow legally bound to not say anything, maybe its time to get off your a$s and address the Iceburg of a marketing disaster you've struck with your silence.

+10

shrox
08-04-2017, 08:50 AM
Well, I just got picked for a really big US governmental deal. I am using Lightwave to do it. When I say "big", I mean historically, nationally big. Like wow big.

Lightwave. Yes.

Could even be a marketing tool...maybe. If. And such.

50one
08-04-2017, 08:55 AM
Could even be a marketing tool...maybe. If. And such.

I think working for McDonalds to be as bad as working for oppressive government :P

- - - Updated - - -


+10

Agree with HrGiger.


However guys you should use 2015 and stop whining hahaha lol.

shrox
08-04-2017, 09:08 AM
I think working for McDonalds to be as bad as working for oppressive government :P...

Oh, much more money in delivering the previously mentioned pizzas.

jwiede
08-04-2017, 10:15 AM
All I have to say is that after this wait and their sputtered out attempt at marketing with their blog (which started out strong then faded into obscurity), in the end there had better be some legal reason or otherwise restricting reason for LW3DG to remain almost completely silent about what is holding up this release. I'm really getting sick of people justifying the wait for stability or making it the 'best release ever'. That's crap at this point. Last year if they had said we need another few to even several months to polish up the stability or new features, I'd say ok that's perfectly reasonable but its now another year on top of that and not even an inkling as to how far away we are from a release. I'm also really getting tired of the 'just use 2015 and be productive' crap. I don't expect them to put out a release 3 times a year like Foundry does for Modo but its not even fully about features either, we need bug fixes for our current software and I figure we're not getting any more of those until LightWave next ships. Because when its finally released (if its going to be), how long until the next release? Are we going to have to endure this again?

Sorry if you're offended or feel like the need to defend LW but some of us here actually do want to see LW improve and just because we're not constantly throwing praise at LW doesn't mean that we don't use it or don't love it. We likely wouldn't be posting here otherwise. But LW3DG, unless you're somehow legally bound to not say anything, maybe its time to get off your a$s and address the Iceburg of a marketing disaster you've struck with your silence.

QFA -- Very well put!

Surrealist.
08-04-2017, 10:24 AM
All I have to say is that after this wait and their sputtered out attempt at marketing with their blog (which started out strong then faded into obscurity), in the end there had better be some legal reason or otherwise restricting reason for LW3DG to remain almost completely silent about what is holding up this release. I'm really getting sick of people justifying the wait for stability or making it the 'best release ever'. That's crap at this point. Last year if they had said we need another few to even several months to polish up the stability or new features, I'd say ok that's perfectly reasonable but its now another year on top of that and not even an inkling as to how far away we are from a release.

I look at it this way. I already know what they are up against. So none of this surprises me. I predicted this all the way back in 2009. And I have just been calmly watching it all unfold. Amazing to watch the drama. At least to LW 3D Group's credit, they have decided to clam up completely. Maybe they made Lino take a time out in the corner for opening his mouth on Facebook. I don't know....lol.

But how I look at it is simply I see it will take X number of years to complete such a task. I modified that initial 5 year prediction in 2009 by taking on another 10-15 back in 2011 I think it was. This is easy for me. I am not committed. I can sit back and sagely say it will take this many years. And I am right. I know I am because I have seen it play out exactly as I have predicted so far.

But I don't work at NewTek. So I don't have the internal pressures they do. I don't have to sugar coat it. I have no idea what internal pressures and decisions they have had to make along the way.

But I do see it as a huge problem. And I have seen them trying their best to address this problem from version 10 moving forward to now. I would not want to be in that position.

So I see that both parties are to blame here. And I have no suggestions for a solution for either party. Because clearly people are not of a mindset to accept what it will take on either side, for perhaps various reasons.

The next version of LightWave is a huge milestone along this long trajectory out of where LightWave was stuck. It is not at all surprising for it to have taken this long and even be delayed. If that is in fact the case.

I have absolutely no motive for saying the things I say other than to express an opinion, and share how I look at it.

Will that help you? Maybe not. Maybe you'll just get more angry and then say I am justifying or whatever.

But some people will allow it to sink in and perhaps get - what I consider to be - a far more sage view of the situation. 2015 is here. This is what we have. Anything else is not under our control no matter how much noise we make.

Another sage view - in my opinion - is that when the next version arrives, (if it ever does) all will be forgiven and forgotten. LightWave will be on a path to (technological) recovery.

But. History will repeat. Because people will have not listened to reason, and think the development will magically speed up to arrive sooner than a reasonable prediction to complete this overall task. (15 to 20 years overall from the start)

Threads will pop up again like this. And here we will be.

bazsa73
08-04-2017, 10:54 AM
silly thread from me for sure, thanx for not flaming me into the ground

Asticles
08-04-2017, 11:13 AM
Maxon's people are also rewriting the core of Cinema4d, but look at the difference: instead of being four or five years without even getting an update for the bugs of the current program and then taking out the dinosaur at once, they are developing the implementation of the core gradually. Was that asking so much?

Surrealist.
08-04-2017, 11:21 AM
Well that is pretty much exactly what has been happening here over the last 7 years. Last upgrade was 2 years ago. We have been getting gradually more and more of the core rewritten with each release as far as I understand. First blog post or two explains that all pretty much. So check that for what actually happened. Not my memory of what was said there ...;)

But beyond a very high level comparison, you can not really compare two software problems that way. Especially two different teams with two different financial situations. There is a drastic price difference here as well.

Blender recently got a heavy re-write. They shut everything down for a few years to do it. But it is far from complete. And that project is I believe about 7 years in the making. 2.8 will be the fruits of the latest push. And it was stated that during this time they would not be doing much with point updates.

There are a lot of issues at Blender's core as well. They are working hard to fix it.

TreyX
08-04-2017, 11:43 AM
i guess i'm just very confused as to why there is so much anger and desperation by some in regards to a LW update. has lightwave been crashing constantly for you and causing your pipelines to fall apart? have you missed deadlines because of major flaws in 2015.3? are there features that have forced you to buy maya or C4D or max or houdini because you absolutely needed the toolsets that lightwave didn't have, and were losing money and jobs because of it?

or is it just that you are tired of having an app named 2015?

either LW works for you or it doesn't. for me, it works, and i'm still able to make money and enjoy doing it. seriously, this forum used to be a cool place to be, to network and share ideas and make friends and working relationships. it started to sour a few years ago, and i had my fill and left it for a while, and still enjoyed my LightWave pipeline minus the community. lately, i really wanted to reach out and start networking again with those who share a similar interest and enjoyment for LW, so i came back. and guess what? some of the same people are still here complaining and dissing LW - and lightwave's reputation by proxy - with vehement negativity, turning it into an example of anger management therapy. some people are toxic people, and i take great strides in my professional and personal life to remove toxic people from my circle, as they are a drain (energy vampires). as the saying goes: you can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time. unfortunately, those who can't be pleased are usually those who get off on complaining the most....

seriously, folks:

if you don't want to use lightwave, then just LEAVE and go somewhere else, buy modo or whatever.

we all have choices. we all have options. exercise yours and put your money where your mouth is. channel your energy into something positive, or switch apps if that meets your needs (a very valid reason to go, if your pipeline requires a different toolset); or just ad apps to round out your dcc arsenal so that you have the best of ALL worlds. i really feel for new lightwave buyers who have come here (and there are some i've seen recently), who all of a sudden see a community of angry, bitter and resentful "professionals". lightwave is NOT dead. but this community forum is sure in the death throws if this keeps on going on, by good people leaving and taking our networking elsewhere....

Asticles
08-04-2017, 12:08 PM
Well, look. YES.
I'm sick of LW crashing every time I close the program.
I'm sick of LW failing once in ten that I move something on the viewer while I have the VPR turned on.
I'm sick of going to the backup folder and find that I've lost half an hour of work because for an unknown reason has recorded the scene and all the objects except the one I had open.
I am also tired of having created reports of failures have not had any kind of solution, because we have been in the same version for several years.
It bothers me that I have to compete day after day (because I dedicate myself to ephemeral architecture contests) with companies that use the 3DMax with Corona or Vray and have to obtain similar results without a decent system of PBR materials, which makes me Go slower than my competition.
It bothers me that when I have to do a uv mapping I have to export to another program because they have not spent a development in conditions to the Modeler, wasting time every time I make a modification that the client asks me and I must do the UV mapping.
It bothers me not to be able to render in network in a decent way because the system that comes with the program is difficult to configure and that forces to take extreme care with nomenclatures of files and objects. If I am in the middle of a delivery I do not have time to be so careful, because the projects have to be done in two days.
It bothers me that they have not made the effort to create a link with other industry programs needed today, such as Substance Painter; that the options of external render engines are VERY limited, when other programs have VRAY, Maxwell or Redshift.
It bothers me that they have not created any type of operations stack to be able to make modifications in a simple way without having to start the modeling again.
It bothers me that we are with an undo that looks like the schrodinger's cat, that you do not know if it is or not.
And of course, it's called 2015, RED HOT or Lightwave 15346634 I do not give a **** because what I care about is that I do not delay at work because of the lack of updates.

All this taking into account that I may have chosen other software from the beginning, but I had the faith that Newtek would soon release the new version because the marketing guy did not know when it will be published. Because of course the roadmap can finish within 10 minutes or within 10 years.
I have always been against the monopoly and that's why I invested in Lightwave, Kray, LWCAD and others to fight against it. And this is how Newtek has rewarded us.

Rayek
08-04-2017, 01:21 PM
Well that is pretty much exactly what has been happening here over the last 7 years. Last upgrade was 2 years ago. We have been getting gradually more and more of the core rewritten with each release as far as I understand. First blog post or two explains that all pretty much. So check that for what actually happened. Not my memory of what was said there ...;)

But beyond a very high level comparison, you can not really compare two software problems that way. Especially two different teams with two different financial situations. There is a drastic price difference here as well.

Blender recently got a heavy re-write. They shut everything down for a few years to do it. But it is far from complete. And that project is I believe about 7 years in the making. 2.8 will be the fruits of the latest push. And it was stated that during this time they would not be doing much with point updates.

There are a lot of issues at Blender's core as well. They are working hard to fix it.

And that's the difference in approach: complete openness versus closed-off silence. With 2.8 the viewport core is rewritten, and currently builds of two branches are available for download: the upcoming 2.79 (almost finished, out this month) and v2.8 (which will take at least 6~9 months). The difference is that users can test drive the new (buggy) 2.8 features NOW, and already are posting beautiful looking demos and tests on Youtube.

I've been testing 2.8, and while it is unfinished, and it just gives an incredibly good and optimistic feeling - hope for the future, if you like.

Similar to the Cinema4d R19 release: ProRender is unfinished, the new viewport is unfinished, the messy material system is in dire need of a nodal update, and a range of other issues (UV editing is terrible, etc.). BUT! Although the new R19 remains a work-in-progress, Maxon users remain relatively positive and (more importantly) hopeful for the magical R20 release. Which will probably not be the wondrous release many hope for/expect. That, however, is unimportant. Maxon, even though they are almost as tight-lipped as Newtek, at least provide reasons to be hopeful with their regular yearly cycle of updates, no matter how few or many new features were added in the past three - four versions.


Newtek's really painted themselves in a corner now. In spite of the negative 'Core' experience, I feel it would be preferable to change paths, and go for complete openness. Just show what you have, allow users to download alphas/betas. Get a second programmer to work on squashing bugs in the current version, and release those builds as soon as a bug is squashed.

Because this silence is crushing hope in your customers' minds. It already did for me a couple of months ago, and I gave away my copy of Lightwave, after having worked with LW since Amiga times.

TreyX
08-04-2017, 01:26 PM
and I gave away my copy of Lightwave, after having worked with LW since Amiga times.

are you still using lightwave? if not, why are you still here? this is a forum for the lightwave community. this proves my point entirely as to what this community is becoming - a hijacked forum by those who can't find another source to vent their venom, and are using the lw community as an anger management soapbox, to promote competitors apps, disparage newtek & lw, or all of the forementioned. if you don't use lw, then PLEASE LEAVE.

shrox
08-04-2017, 01:29 PM
Well, look. YES.
I'm sick of LW crashing every time I close the program.
I'm sick of LW failing once in ten that I move something on the viewer while I have the VPR turned on.
I'm sick of going to the backup folder and find that I've lost half an hour of work because for an unknown reason has recorded the scene and all the objects except the one I had open...

My old computer did that. My new computer does not.

jeric_synergy
08-04-2017, 01:33 PM
FWIW, I figured "Corey" (?) was going to be their "outside face", and pop out an article, a tute, FB post or even just some juicy links every month. Maybe some corrections and/or extensions of the documentation.

That position would no doubt be the lowest paid at LWG, but it would have made the customers feel a lot better. You'd just need someone who could keep their lip zipped, but that could nod and take the abuse of the forum.

I even think there's some users HERE (not myself) who have Kept The Faith, started LW-oriented websites, and could use some of those Coreybuck$. (Which may not exist, since Corey has been MIA for years.)

EG, I think EVERYBODY should know about Mark Warner's sterling LW/Mograph tutorials, they are fantastic. Same with RR's. Someone at LWG should be in charge of getting that info out to both LW customers, prospective customers, and the people we have to deal with. IOW, "no, look, Lightwave isn't dead!".

BUT, apparently they decided not to go that way.

TreyX
08-04-2017, 01:57 PM
My old computer did that. My new computer does not.

i've not had these issues either. lw 2015.3 has been very stable, unless i'm doing something that just pushes the boundary of what my hardware/GPU can handle. i'll then have to re-tool my scene or re-plan to accommodate any hardware limitations on the dell precision 5510 mobile workstation. but i don't blame it on LW - that's just ridiculous.

Matt
08-04-2017, 02:22 PM
"Corey"

You mean Cody? He's now a Lead Effects artist at Nickelodeon.

Surrealist.
08-04-2017, 02:22 PM
And that's the difference in approach: complete openness versus closed-off silence. With 2.8 the viewport core is rewritten, and currently builds of two branches are available for download: the upcoming 2.79 (almost finished, out this month) and v2.8 (which will take at least 6~9 months). The difference is that users can test drive the new (buggy) 2.8 features NOW, and already are posting beautiful looking demos and tests on Youtube.

I've been testing 2.8, and while it is unfinished, and it just gives an incredibly good and optimistic feeling - hope for the future, if you like.

Yep. I agree it can have that effect. But it would not affect me so negatively in the opposite direction to just give my software away. Although I can understand feeling that frustrated. I guess I decided it was not productive to get emotional about it anymore. But I have been there. I understand. :)

And like you I also like what I am seeing with Blender.

But even with the delays. I am still optimistic about LightWave. :) What can I say...lol

Rayek
08-04-2017, 02:26 PM
if you don't use lw, then PLEASE LEAVE.

Nah, I think I'll be staying for a while, and see where LW Next goes. I am genuinely interested in Next, you know. Been a long-time LW user (far longer than you, I think), and when Next is released, I may opt in again. I've done that before: taking a break from Lightwave, and getting back to it later. Change is change, for better or worse.

I am on a temporary LW leave right now. ;-)

shrox
08-04-2017, 02:27 PM
Nah, I think I'll be staying for a while, and see where LW Next goes. I am genuinely interested in Next, you know. Been a long-time LW user (far longer than you, I think), and when Next is released, I may opt in again. I've done that before: taking a break from Lightwave, and getting back to it later. Change is change, for better or worse.

I am on a temporary LW leave right now. ;-)

OK then.

hrgiger
08-04-2017, 02:29 PM
but i don't blame it on LW - that's just ridiculous.

Here's a news flash for you. LW 2015 isn't perfect, it isn't entirely stable, and neither is any other software out their either. So just because you're not experiencing stability issues, that doesn't sum up what other people are experiencing on different OS's, different hardware, different configurations.... So sometimes its perfectly valid to blame LW for crashes and there's nothing 'ridiculous' about it. But even if you were experiencing crashes, nothing you could do about it since we haven't had any bug fixes in like 2 1/2 years...

As far as your rant about if you're not using LW than leave.... another news flash. Some people use more than one app. Myself included. I use Modo because it became clear to me years ago that LW wasn't going to update modeler in any significant way(and that's not changing in LW Next). They haven't in almost the 20 years I've now been using it. So yeah, people have legitimate concerns that aren't being addressed in LW and no indication from LW3DG that they will ever be addressed. Yet some of us still use LW because we've used it for so long and are familiar with it enough, there's no reason to give it up (and its practically free anyway its so cheap). And as long as I'm using it, I'm going to continue to cite the things I see that need addressed. One of those right now is LW3DGs complete lack of comprehension of the patience they're assuming their customers possess. Its entirely frustrating to me that after the debacle with CORE and still some of us stayed on, they've decided now that testing us with unending patience with LW next is a good idea. This isn't about pushing out or rushing a release that's not ready. If they need additional time because its just not working fine, but maybe its time to address that. Its also entirely frustrating to have seen a handful of people just in the last few months say screw LW, I'm going elsewhere and see no reaction whatsoever from LW3DG.

Rayek
08-04-2017, 02:38 PM
Yep. I agree it can have that effect. But it would not affect me so negatively in the opposite direction to just give my software away. Although I can understand feeling that frustrated. I guess I decided it was not productive to get emotional about it anymore. But I have been there. I understand. :)

And like you I also like what I am seeing with Blender.

But even with the delays. I am still optimistic about LightWave. :) What can I say...lol

I was still on 9.6, and hadn't installed it for a while - not giving it away because of frustration, just that someone would use my copy for their project, and I wasn't using it. In the past five years I slowly moved away from LW for most of my work.

Having said that, if Next proves to be worthwhile, I will get a license. I am actually quite optimistic about LightWave's next release (whenever that may happen_.
In my opinion things aren't black and white - and we change our workflow as it fits our (work/hobby) situation. For example, I've been learning Houdini in the past week, and it is fun to use, and fills some gaps for me. In the past I moved from Lightwave to Max, from Max to C4D, and back to Lightwave again. Then to Blender, and of course sidecar apps like 3Dcoat have been with me for a while. I am software agnostic, really. And I do keep older versions around - still use C4D for the Xfrog tree plugin.

Same with web development: I change tools all the time, often on a per-project basis. It prevents me from becoming bored as well, and learn new things all the time.

Wickedpup
08-04-2017, 03:21 PM
You mean Cody? He's now a Lead Effects artist at Nickelodeon.

Now, Matt.....you take the time to answer this but have not yet answered Jwiedes question back at #24 where he asked who is in charge of marketing and how to contact that person......how am I to read that? Should I read it as "there is no one in charge of marketing and to contact" and thus only something you are using as an excuse? Or as "there is someone in marketing and to contact" but maybe you will not say because you know that someone will be walking right into a sh!tstorm? :question:

shrox
08-04-2017, 03:24 PM
So, y'all staying or leaving? I have to figure out how many cookies to bake and how much punch to mix up.

hrgiger
08-04-2017, 03:26 PM
As long as they're not oatmeal cookies, I'm staying.

Thomas Helzle
08-04-2017, 03:31 PM
Well, I'd never have thought that this update would take that long and the blog would be as agonisingly going down in newsworthy content after the great start - everything looked so good initially.

In the meantime I totally changed direction and now use Houdini Core fulltime, with Redshift and (less often) Octane for rendering my abstract artwork.

I honestly don't know what would need to happen to make me consider LW again as major part of my pipeline, but I keep the door open a crack and check in every couple of months here... probably mostly for sentimental reasons and since I always find something interesting on the forums - usually offtopic though... :-)

Maybe they finally implement the GUI that Matt designed about a hundred years ago...?

Cheers,

Tom

shrox
08-04-2017, 03:31 PM
As long as they're not oatmeal cookies, I'm staying.

Peanut butter chocolate chip cookies, and the punch is spiked. Full on gluten in the cookies too...

Surrealist.
08-04-2017, 03:33 PM
I was still on 9.6, and hadn't installed it for a while - not giving it away because of frustration, just that someone would use my copy for their project, and I wasn't using it. In the past five years I slowly moved away from LW for most of my work.

Having said that, if Next proves to be worthwhile, I will get a license. I am actually quite optimistic about LightWave's next release (whenever that may happen_.
In my opinion things aren't black and white - and we change our workflow as it fits our (work/hobby) situation. For example, I've been learning Houdini in the past week, and it is fun to use, and fills some gaps for me. In the past I moved from Lightwave to Max, from Max to C4D, and back to Lightwave again. Then to Blender, and of course sidecar apps like 3Dcoat have been with me for a while. I am software agnostic, really. And I do keep older versions around - still use C4D for the Xfrog tree plugin.

Same with web development: I change tools all the time, often on a per-project basis. It prevents me from becoming bored as well, and learn new things all the time.

I see, cool. Thanks for the clarification.

Two tools I whish I had more time for is, Modo and Houdini. C4d is a bit pricy.

jeric_synergy
08-04-2017, 03:35 PM
You mean Cody? He's now a Lead Effects artist at Nickelodeon.

See? That's how long it's been. ;)

Good for him! But that position should be filled. Maybe someone from the EU.


Two tools I whish I had more time for is, Modo and Houdini. C4d is a bit pricy.
You ain'ta whistlin' Dixie there.

Even though it doesn't really make any sort of fiscal sense, I'll probably upgrade when it finally arrives. Hard to stop a habit that started with Videoscape. :eek: OTOH, the other day I re-installed it (hard drive crash), and it wasn't nearly as intuitive as I recalled.... which means NO 3d software is currently intuitive to me.

ncr100
08-04-2017, 03:47 PM
Now, Matt.....you take the time to answer this but have not yet answered Jwiedes question back at #24 where he asked who is in charge of marketing and how to contact that person......how am I to read that? Should I read it as "there is no one in charge of marketing and to contact" and thus only something you are using as an excuse? Or as "there is someone in marketing and to contact" but maybe you will not say because you know that someone will be walking right into a sh!tstorm? :question:

Wickedpup! You may call the company - or email since they're on the web - you're much more likely to get in touch with them. Matt did not likely join to be the Phone Directory Man. :) LinkedIn has a bunch of names too. Let your fingers do the walking. https://youtu.be/SYpJ1IgGoc0?t=3s

Wickedpup
08-04-2017, 04:22 PM
That still does not answer the QUESTION: Who is in charge of marketing and how do we contact him?

Photogram
08-04-2017, 04:30 PM
But it is far from complete. And that project is I believe about 7 years in the making.
There are a lot of issues at Blender's core as well. They are working hard to fix it.

Softimage also took 7 years to do the rewrite to XSI ;) So it seem to be a average time to develop a good software.. Modo also took about the same amount of time to be finally stable and near complete and versatile as other mature 3d software...

In the case of Lightwave we are actually about 7 years since they started Core. But they have loose their main programmers so it is normal to wait another couple of years to get it ready...

I will wait since i am loyal and totally addicted to the Lightwave workflow!

Long live to Lightwave! come back in force and kick all those autodesk alienated 3D guys ;)

Farhad_azer
08-04-2017, 05:06 PM
Thanks photogram. Long live Lightwave.

50one
08-04-2017, 05:11 PM
I'll bring some biscuits too, so you guys are free to munch on them as much as you like.

http://www.britishshopabroad.com/product_images/p/146/0__67907_zoom.jpg

COBRASoft
08-04-2017, 05:13 PM
Am I the only one that actually wanted CORE to continue instead of this 'mess'? How far would it be right now? What would Matt have done with that UI? probably more than he can do today... So many questions, so little answers :)
I understand that rewriting the 'core' of an existing application is very demanding and a lot of unforseen things can go wrong...

Now, take it from a 'veteran' software developer (more than 25 years in business). Sometimes you just have to restart from scratch to make real progress and bring in new developers. I'm at the end of a lifecycle of an ERP application (14+ years in development), it's time to say goodbye and restart!

50one
08-04-2017, 05:21 PM
Ain't gonna happen with the same clueless captain in the bridge. Sooner or layer the ship will crash.

shrox
08-04-2017, 05:21 PM
Ain't gonna happen with the same clueless captain in the bridge. Sooner or layer the ship will crash.

Layer...ha! Funny even if unintended.

SBowie
08-04-2017, 05:28 PM
..." but maybe you will not say because you know that someone will be walking right into a sh!tstorm? :question:I think you should read it as Matt being free to casually offer information about someone who has moved on, but understand that more stringent dictates apply in other respects.

I wouldn't blame Matt for the extended silence. I said something very similar about marketing previously. Despite appearances, numerous people are making earnest efforts to provide a good outcome. In the interim, no-one is going to do more than apologize for the frustration. I'm not suggesting you should be satisfied by these words, just saying it isn't Matt's fault.

Intuition
08-04-2017, 05:40 PM
Am I the only one that actually wanted CORE to continue instead of this 'mess'? How far would it be right now? What would Matt have done with that UI? probably more than he can do today... So many questions, so little answers :)
I understand that rewriting the 'core' of an existing application is very demanding and a lot of unforseen things can go wrong...

Now, take it from a 'veteran' software developer (more than 25 years in business). Sometimes you just have to restart from scratch to make real progress and bring in new developers. I'm at the end of a lifecycle of an ERP application (14+ years in development), it's time to say goodbye and restart!

No, I really was on board for Core. I still have a winXp 64 boot that has a working Core launcher. One of those great innovations that was shut down right before it became something special. I mean, maybe it became what this LW Next everyone is talking about. Who knows? Only a few. But I had high hopes for Core.

Overall though, not to be too sour on Lightwave. Though I've been away from LW for a decade now I can say that when I checked in to see LW 11 I was really impressed. It had all these features that we used to clamor for back in the LW 9.x cycles. The cries for a native "fprime" and nodal shading. Linear lighting workflow. Better rigging. etc etc. Better dynamics. So much actually came true.

It was too late for me. I was already Maya/Max/Softimage/modo Renderman/Vray/MentalRay by that point and have been since.

But, I do remeber the forums having been back then...10+ years ago... and see that now... things are fairly the same.

People asking for release info. Asking for new features. Complaining about x,y,z.

Guess what? Its not really much better anywhere else.

Softimage died.
Maya is still Maya and still works with all the big render engines. And still is the versatile monster it has always been.
Still making character rigging a joy and making using big monster mip mapped EXRs non memory intensive.
Max is still Max. A platform for neat plugins and Vray.
Houdini still makes procedural mograph and abstract effects, fluids, and smoke.
Modo (Lightwave creator's true baby) is still innovating and filling galleries with beautiful renders.

And Lightwave, the little app that got me started back in 1995 is still here.
Still holding the blue collar VFX line.
Still helping people to do very creative things.
Being guided more now by artists that actually use it.

Just like core this new situation is taking time.
But unlike core I think this one will make it to the finish line with lots of happy end results.

COBRASoft
08-04-2017, 05:40 PM
I don't think anybody is blaming Matt per se, but people blame the lightwave group for their silence.

I'm pretty sure everybody at Lightwave wants to get the news out, but they aren't ready, that's pretty clear by now. Perhaps they are doing more stuff than first anticipated or they're stuck on some bugs caused by their innovative changes. This is what happens if you play with 'old' code.

Been there, done that, way too often!

Rayek
08-04-2017, 05:43 PM
Two tools I whish I had more time for is, Modo and Houdini. C4d is a bit pricy.

I put off trying out Houdini due to its infamous 'complexity' and everyone telling me that you need a programmer's mentality to work with it. But it is surprisingly accessible. As I mentioned before in a thread, the manual is REALLY good.

Cinema4D is utterly over-priced in my opinion - at least its Studio edition. It's a damn shame ProRender isn't part of Prime or BodyPaint. 3d is a small part of my income, and at some point I had to bail out of Cinema4D because of the ever-increasing upkeep.

The trouble with C4D is that, for its relatively high cost, it's a mixed bag: some really good stuff (MoGraph) versus the depressingly bad (UV editing, material system, various parts left to linger for years and years like Pyrocluster), to the mediocre (the built-in render engine, particle system, although ProRender is a good sign). At least BodyPaint is finally getting some attention now. But there are silly inconsistencies you don't see in other 3d applications, such as the 'broken' mirror functionality. And C4D users tend to invest heavily in plugins to mitigate this: external renderers, external particle system plugin, this, that, and so on. I did too at the time, and it adds up FAST in terms of costs - at some point I realized C4D had become the most expensive 3d app option out there, and investing more money in additional plugins to fix missing or half-implemented functionality.

Cinema4D is quite attractive at first glance, and it is a solid 3d app. But it comes at a high financial cost - which isn't too bad if you are earning a good income with motion graphics, or so.
Otherwise, you could get Lightwave, 3dCoat, Blender with all the best commercial addons + ProRender, Houdini Indie, Substance Designer and Painter, Fusion Studio, and Marvelous Designer perpetual licenses, and Vray, and still have money saved compared to one single Studio license of C4D. Think about that for a moment.

Matt
08-04-2017, 06:00 PM
Now, Matt.....you take the time to answer this but have not yet answered Jwiedes question back at #24

Honestly didn't see his question, because I only read part of this thread when checking "New Posts", wasn't ignoring anyone.

Steve Bowie's response is accurate.

js33
08-04-2017, 06:05 PM
I think you should read it as Matt being free to casually offer information about someone who has moved on, but understand that more stringent dictates apply in other respects.

I wouldn't blame Matt for the extended silence. I said something very similar about marketing previously. Despite appearances, numerous people are making earnest efforts to provide a good outcome. In the interim, no-one is going to do more than apologize for the frustration. I'm not suggesting you should be satisfied by these words, just saying it isn't Matt's fault.

Steve you should be head of Marketing! At least you talk to us and help keep us from going insane. :D

SBowie
08-04-2017, 07:27 PM
Steve you should be head of Marketing!what did I ever do to you? ;)

js33
08-04-2017, 07:39 PM
what did I ever do to you? ;)

I was just complimenting your superior communication skills and how they could be put to better use. But you certainly would not deserve a sh!tstorm from this restless bunch.

Marander
08-04-2017, 07:40 PM
Cinema4D is utterly over-priced in my opinion - at least its Studio edition.

First: LW offers great functionality for its (permanent reduced) price. Blender is hard to beat in price/functionality ratio.

But C4D is worth it for me. Quality has its price. With a fully equipped C4D, LW can never get anywhere close in my opinion. There are so many situations where it shines in its usability and brilliant design and details of the individual tools.

I agree it's not cheap but for a pro this shouldn't be an issue. I share your opinion in some points (UV, Pyrocluster for example), not so in others. The Physical Renderer is slow but offers outstanding quality. I also have Vray and Cycles4D but often fall back on Physical and I like the texturing (but I admit it took a while to get used to). Standard Renderer is not worse then LWs and similar fast in my opinion. Symmetry works fine for me, I had no issues so far. The great HB modeling bundle extends it even further.

Nodes (XPresso) are only available for animation parameters and simple colors / lights or calculation of other parameters, no deep nodal texturing like in LW (but works great for Cycles 4D). Xpresso itself is powerful but could use some redesign. I hope this will come in one of the next versions.

Plugins for C4D are tempting and I got almost all of them, it's a dream to work with (X-Particles, TFD, Forester, Vue, Nitro plugins, GSG plugins, they all work so well together).

UV mapping overhaul and nodal texturing will come soon for sure. I'm surprised with the new media and modeling core with its first tools in R19. The new viewport and the fracturing improvements are awesome, the redesigned sound effector looks like extreme fun to play with.

Character animation is behind AD tools but there are improvements in every release. And compared to LW it's much ahead anyway (Autorigger with Walk Cycle generator, Onion Skinning / Ghosting, Muscle deformer, Pose Morphs, Correctional Morphs, great Sculpting, vertex map and weight painting, basic retopo, Non-linear animation etc.). With the great People In Motion plugin native support for DAZ, AXYZ Design, renderpeople, Adobe Fuse/Mixamo, Autodesk rig characters (and crowd simulation), full anima2.x integration.

Where it really shines is with procedural animation (not only MoGraph), the animatable parameters everywhere, the spline editor, text and modeling tools, Takes and Tokens, Layers, Deformers, Effectors, Generators, Cloners, micropoly displacement, parallax mapping, GPU tesselation and its flexible and intuitive UI, snapping, guides, workplanes, Scene and Object manager, the non-destructive workflow, AE integration or the possibility to save a Fusion project with the render. Substance and Houdini engine integration, scripting, vectorization (AI import), Content Browser, Structure manager, features like cloth, hair, full dynamics, Motion tracker, now with scene reconstruction from auto-generated point clouds.

Another thing you get with C4D: Every day new tutorials, podcasts, tons of existing free high quality tutorials, tons of commercial tutorials, several quick tips from Maxon every week, free scenes, Cineversity plugins, 1000s of tutorials in Cineversity, books etc. Models and materials from cgaxis in C4D / C4D Vray formats, tons of material libraries (free and commercial), almost all renderers available with seamless integrations. A clear release strategy, participation of Maxon staff in forums, 3 days Siggraph live presentations and tutorials of fascinating projects. And: Working undo, stability and ease of use, frequent bug fixes, even for previous releases.

Importing characters, having them rigged and ready to walk, perfectly lit, all within seconds. Making corrections at various levels of a model or text, applying physics with few clicks and tuning the simulation in realtime, modifying procedural emitter objects, keyframe-less procedural animation, having team render automatically activate idle machines in the network, even for still images...

At the end it's also a huge time saver and much fun. All this and much more is worth the price in my opinion.

So over and out, I'm quiet now.

shrox
08-04-2017, 07:40 PM
I was just complimenting your superior communication skills and how they could be put to better use. But you certainly would not deserve a sh!tstorm from this restless bunch.

I concur.

SBowie
08-04-2017, 10:10 PM
Group hu... nah, too sappy for this crowd. :p

Megalodon2.0
08-05-2017, 12:18 AM
Preperation for marketing. Sorry. You are wrong here. Of course they are prepping for it. But they are not yet marketing it. Until released it does not exist. And if it does exist and they are truly ready to market something, that means they have to prep and plan for that. But if there has been a hang up in development (beta feedback bugs etc) then marketing plans are pushed back. Or if planning and prep for marketing (which includes documentation and web development) is also delayed, the release will be delayed.

Simple as that.

No release date. No marketing. No Marketing. No release date.

Not quite. I've always been interested in marketing and it is FAR MORE than you suggest. From the "Business Dictionary..."


marketing:

The management process through which goods and services move from concept to the customer. It includes the coordination of four elements called the 4 P's of marketing:

(1) identification, selection and development of a product,

(2) determination of its price,

(3) selection of a distribution channel to reach the customer's place, and

(4) development and implementation of a promotional strategy.

For example, new Apple products are developed to include improved applications and systems, are set at different prices depending on how much capability the customer desires, and are sold in places where other Apple products are sold.


The management process through which goods and services move from concept to the customer. It includes the coordination of four elements called the 4 P's of marketing:

(1) identification, selection and development of a product,

(2) determination of its price,

(3) selection of a distribution channel to reach the customer's place, and

(4) development and implementation of a promotional strategy.

For example, new Apple products are developed to include improved applications and systems, are set at different prices depending on how much capability the customer desires, and are sold in places where other Apple products are sold.
In order to promote the device, the company featured its debut at tech events and is highly advertised on the web and on television.

Marketing is based on thinking about the business in terms of customer needs and their satisfaction. Marketing differs from selling because (in the words of Harvard Business School's retired professor of marketing Theodore C. Levitt) "Selling concerns itself with the tricks and techniques of getting people to exchange their cash for your product. It is not concerned with the values that the exchange is all about. And it does not, as marketing invariable does, view the entire business process as consisting of a tightly integrated effort to discover, create, arouse and satisfy customer needs." In other words, marketing has less to do with getting customers to pay for your product as it does developing a demand for that product and fulfilling the customer's needs.

---------

And with this in mind... Newtek "marketing" is NOT doing its job. And I am very sorry to see this continues to happen year after year. :(

Surrealist.
08-05-2017, 01:31 AM
Sure those are all things a part of marketing. I don't see how it supersedes what I said. What I said, supersedes... it. Any marketing guru would agree if there is uncertainty in a product (the key element of marketing) there is uncertainty in the marketing. ;)

The more technical a product is, the more the production process takes priority over anything else. Not rocket science.

jwiede
08-05-2017, 02:03 AM
Softimage also took 7 years to do the rewrite to XSI ;)

Huh? Sumatra development didn't even begin until after the NT porting effort was completed and released (3.0 released Jan96), the experiences during the porting effort helped justify the deep rewrite. XSI 1.0 first released/shipped in May 2000.

Thomas Helzle
08-05-2017, 02:50 AM
I put off trying out Houdini due to its infamous 'complexity' and everyone telling me that you need a programmer's mentality to work with it. But it is surprisingly accessible. As I mentioned before in a thread, the manual is REALLY good.

Cinema4D is utterly over-priced in my opinion - at least its Studio edition. It's a damn shame ProRender isn't part of Prime or BodyPaint. 3d is a small part of my income, and at some point I had to bail out of Cinema4D because of the ever-increasing upkeep.

The trouble with C4D is that, for its relatively high cost, it's a mixed bag: some really good stuff (MoGraph) versus the depressingly bad (UV editing, material system, various parts left to linger for years and years like Pyrocluster), to the mediocre (the built-in render engine, particle system, although ProRender is a good sign). At least BodyPaint is finally getting some attention now. But there are silly inconsistencies you don't see in other 3d applications, such as the 'broken' mirror functionality. And C4D users tend to invest heavily in plugins to mitigate this: external renderers, external particle system plugin, this, that, and so on. I did too at the time, and it adds up FAST in terms of costs - at some point I realized C4D had become the most expensive 3d app option out there, and investing more money in additional plugins to fix missing or half-implemented functionality.

Cinema4D is quite attractive at first glance, and it is a solid 3d app. But it comes at a high financial cost - which isn't too bad if you are earning a good income with motion graphics, or so.
Otherwise, you could get Lightwave, 3dCoat, Blender with all the best commercial addons + ProRender, Houdini Indie, Substance Designer and Painter, Fusion Studio, and Marvelous Designer perpetual licenses, and Vray, and still have money saved compared to one single Studio license of C4D. Think about that for a moment.

Very good summation of my own impressions. C4D was my first "serious" 3D software when it came out for PC in 1997 as version 4.0. I stayed with it until v6 before I switched to LW in 1999/2000. I bought C4D again when it was at v10 for one job, but re-sold it afterwards - it was still extremely clunky and I even found the same major bugs I knew from the olden times.

From todays perspective, I realize that what I always hated was the black-box design - either something works or it absolutely does not and you can only fix it with plugins (or not at all).
Now that I use Houdini fulltime, with it's totally open architecture, fast development pace and really clever workflow, I don't even think about plugins other than GPU renderers.
I find it interesting that a lot of C4D studios ATM look into Houdini - it may be the best "plugin" you can get for it ;-)

LW was something in between, there was always some way to achieve what I needed and the thinking out of the box and the many, often free community provided plugins solved many obstacles.
So yeah, let's see what they come up with :-)

Cheers,

Tom

Wickedpup
08-05-2017, 02:54 AM
I think you should read it as Matt being free to casually offer information about someone who has moved on, but understand that more stringent dictates apply in other respects.

I wouldn't blame Matt for the extended silence. I said something very similar about marketing previously. Despite appearances, numerous people are making earnest efforts to provide a good outcome. In the interim, no-one is going to do more than apologize for the frustration. I'm not suggesting you should be satisfied by these words, just saying it isn't Matt's fault.
I donīt blame Matt for anything, only wanted an explanation and got one from both him and you so that is all good. So am I to understand that there is no one to handle marketing?

pinkmouse
08-05-2017, 02:56 AM
No-one prepared to admit to it, at any rate. ;)

Wickedpup
08-05-2017, 04:03 AM
Well, IMO stating that any release of information or official statement needs to come from something/someone non-existent seems pointless to me.........

SBowie
08-05-2017, 06:13 AM
So am I to understand that there is no one to handle marketing?You know I don't work with the LW group, right? Truth be told, I really don't know whether LW marketing these days falls under them or the larger NewTek marketing team - but in this context, what difference does it make? In either case, it must be obvious that the absence of information isn't because marketing people are either slack or stupid (or because there are only a few people left at all, as one or two have suggested; although I don't know all of them personally, I do know that's not the case.) Clearly a decision has been made at higher levels to go into silent running. And it should be obvious, too, that such a decision would not be taken lightly, nor would they be unaware that this would naturally lead to some uncertainty and unrest.

As Matt has suggested, then, clarity will likely ultimately arrive in the form of information provided with the involvement of marketing - but not until they get a green light. It isn't up to him to pull that trigger, nor marketing. It is up to senior management, who is certainly aware of all of all of this already. Until the logjam breaks, our options appear to be reduced to getting on with life, with or without LW (as each one chooses), and chatting amongst ourselves.

hrgiger
08-05-2017, 07:20 AM
As is always the problem- senior management. And senior management at Newtek specifically have quite the track record of making poor decisions for the sake of LightWave. This one looks to be no different.

SBowie
08-05-2017, 07:24 AM
This one looks to be no different.I've been around these sorts of things for more than two decades. One thing I know for certain, they are always far more complex than they ever appear to be from the outside.

Wickedpup
08-05-2017, 07:33 AM
You know I don't work with the LW group, right? Truth be told, I really don't know whether LW marketing these days falls under them or the larger NewTek marketing team - but in this context, what difference does it make? In either case, it must be obvious that the absence of information isn't because marketing people are either slack or stupid (or because there are only a few people left at all, as one or two have suggested; although I don't know all of them personally, I do know that's not the case.) Clearly a decision has been made at higher levels to go into silent running. And it should be obvious, too, that such a decision would not be taken lightly, nor would they be unaware that this would naturally lead to some uncertainty and unrest.

As Matt has suggested, then, clarity will likely ultimately arrive in the form of information provided with the involvement of marketing - but not until they get a green light. It isn't up to him to pull that trigger, nor marketing. It is up to senior management, who is certainly aware of all of all of this already. Until the logjam breaks, our options appear to be reduced to getting on with life, with or without LW (as each one chooses), and chatting amongst ourselves.

I frankly donīt get what you are on about and it looks a little bit like you have lost sight of what the issue is. The only absence of information I am talking about here is a question that is simple and so should the answer be: Who is the go-to contact in marketing? We get told time and time again that "if we have a bug up our @ss or some complaint or something to whine about we should direct it to LWG". So for arguments sake....say I have a complaint, issue, question, whatever about marketing and want to talk the person in charge of it....then it should be easy to produce an e-mail adress and/or name.....I donīt know why you and Matt keep beating around the bush.

hrgiger
08-05-2017, 07:48 AM
I've been around these sorts of things for more than two decades. One thing I know for certain, they are always far more complex than they ever appear to be from the outside.

Im sure. But even Jenison has admitted in the past they havent made the best decisions in the past regarding LightWave. I also just see some different points along lightwaves timeline where certainly better decisions could have been made. The fact that i have a little modo icon on my desktop or that there even is a modo to begin with is one sign of that.

SBowie
08-05-2017, 07:59 AM
I just see some different points along lightwaves timeline where certainly better decisions could have been made.Sure, I'll accompany you at least partway there. There are times when, were it my call, I'd have done things differently. I'm by no means certain it would have worked out for the best if we had done things 'my way', but we'll never know, nor really do I even know what all of the factors involved were. I seriously doubt, though, that anything I came up with on my own had not been at least considered by those involved.

SBowie
08-05-2017, 08:05 AM
...say I have a complaint, issue, question, whatever about marketing and want to talk the person in charge of it....then it should be easy to produce an e-mail adress and/or name.....I donīt know why you and Matt keep beating around the bush.I don't give out personal contact details on behalf of others, and I doubt Matt does either. I have access to your email address, and I don't bandy it about - that would be unethical. And anyway, there's no need. There are numerous access points on the websites of both divisions. If there aren't any direct marketing contact links, use sales contacts (in the end, marketing's job is driven by the needs of sales, albeit with oversight by senior management).

Marander
08-05-2017, 08:51 AM
I donīt know why you and Matt keep beating around the bush.

As Steve said (and I appreciate his commitment and openness), marketing have their orders from senior management. They are not allowed to say anything. And we can imgine who senior management is.

So you might contact that person directly. Maybe you will get an answer like "We are very optimistic and things look really good. Please understand that we cannot disclose... whatever blabla"

I don't understand the decision for the silence but at some point we might know (and accept it or not). I for myself made up my mind.

Verlon
08-05-2017, 09:09 AM
Steve you should be head of Marketing! At least you talk to us and help keep us from going insane. :D

Then he wouldn't be allowed to talk to us.

Say, what does that marketing gig pay, anyway? I could use side income, and getting paid to do nothing would be an easy job.

Marander
08-05-2017, 09:15 AM
I bought C4D again when it was at v10 for one job, but re-sold it afterwards - it was still extremely clunky and I even found the same major bugs I knew from the olden times.

Yeah but common, R10 was 11 years ago.

Houdini is an impressive piece of software, but how was it 11 years ago?

jasonwestmas
08-05-2017, 09:26 AM
I would love to be able to show stuff, however, any release of information needs to go through marketing.

Oh marketing is calling the shots on all of this. . .that explains everything. Never let Marketing drive the car on anything ever, matter how good or bad they are.

ncr100
08-05-2017, 09:32 AM
That still does not answer the QUESTION: Who is in charge of marketing and how do we contact him?

That question is not likely going to be 'answered' here. To reiterate, the hims and hers are on LinkedIn, aaaand let your fingers do the walking. Let us know what your success is.

Wickedpup
08-05-2017, 10:15 AM
That question is not likely going to be 'answered' here. To reiterate, the hims and hers are on LinkedIn, aaaand let your fingers do the walking. Let us know what your success is.
6 employees at LWG.....none in marketing.

SBowie
08-05-2017, 10:44 AM
Not that it will answer your question, but many peeps at Newtek customarily wear multiple hats. Sometimes that's good, otherwise it keeps us hopping.

Megalodon2.0
08-05-2017, 11:32 AM
Sure those are all things a part of marketing. I don't see how it supersedes what I said. What I said, supersedes... it. Any marketing guru would agree if there is uncertainty in a product (the key element of marketing) there is uncertainty in the marketing. ;)

The more technical a product is, the more the production process takes priority over anything else. Not rocket science.

There is no "uncertainty in the product." The next version of Lightwave WILL be released. The DETAILS AND STABILITY of the product may still be in flux, but the product itself is CERTAIN. And that is NOT what marketing is concerning itself with - as the definition of marketing states clearly. It's getting people EXCITED about BUYING the product and dealing with customers in a POSITIVE and ENTICING way.

Your definition of marketing is incorrect. Feel free to disagree, but MARKETING is not as whittled down as you make it to be.

Nicolas Jordan
08-05-2017, 12:44 PM
When LW NEXT finally does get released they will need a significant sustained marketing campaign to make up for long and fairly quiet dev cycle since LW 2015 was released.

jwiede
08-05-2017, 12:59 PM
I don't give out personal contact details on behalf of others, and I doubt Matt does either. I have access to your email address, and I don't bandy it about - that would be unethical. And anyway, there's no need. There are numerous access points on the websites of both divisions. If there aren't any direct marketing contact links, use sales contacts (in the end, marketing's job is driven by the needs of sales, albeit with oversight by senior management).

Steve, try to keep in mind, this discussion went in this particular direction (this time) because key contact email addresses provided on the site were bouncing (or not yielding responses) -- it isn't actually as easy to grab another (working) email contact to use as you're suggesting.

Surrealist.
08-05-2017, 01:17 PM
There is no "uncertainty in the product." The next version of Lightwave WILL be released. The DETAILS AND STABILITY of the product may still be in flux, but the product itself is CERTAIN. And that is NOT what marketing is concerning itself with - as the definition of marketing states clearly. It's getting people EXCITED about BUYING the product and dealing with customers in a POSITIVE and ENTICING way.

Your definition of marketing is incorrect. Feel free to disagree, but MARKETING is not as whittled down as you make it to be.

I never defined marketing. You did. I don't disagree with that definition. I never felt the need to define it. I think we have all been around long enough to know a thing or two about what marketing is. And it does not take a very high IQ to understand that if you don't have a product, there is nothing to market.

You are basing your assumption on the idea that there is something to market. I am not. It is just that simple.

If it is as you say, definite. Then I agree with you. I will step back and be wrong. But I am not going on that assumption at this point.

You and I have been exposed to the same information over these last years. I just interpret it differently.

Neither of us know for sure. Unless you have insider info you want to share, I am OK with my version of events. :)

shrox
08-05-2017, 01:21 PM
Steve. Yes.

Megalodon2.0
08-05-2017, 01:32 PM
I never defined marketing. You did. I don't disagree with that definition. I never felt the need to define it. I think we have all been around long enough to know a thing or two about what marketing is. And it does not take a very high IQ to understand that if you don't have a product, there is nothing to market.

You are basing your assumption on the idea that there is something to market. I am not. It is just that simple.

If it is as you say, definite. Then I agree with you. I will step back and be wrong. But I am not going on that assumption at this point.

But again, you are NOT CORRECT. There IS a product - it is simply not yet complete. You are completely IGNORING the fact that what you perceive marketing to be is not what marketing truly is. You acknowledge it, but you refuse to accept it.

But it is not about the product READY TO BE SOLD.

"Marketing is based on thinking about the business in terms of customer needs and their satisfaction."

Again.... "Marketing differs from selling..."

Again.... "Selling concerns itself with the tricks and techniques of getting people to exchange their cash for your product. It is not concerned with the values that the exchange is all about. And it does not, as marketing invariable does, view the entire business process as consisting of a tightly integrated effort to discover, create, arouse and satisfy customer needs."

The FACT is... marketing - especially in the case of Lightwave - does not NEED THE PRODUCT TO BE READY TO SELL. The blog posts - when they were consistent - were great marketing. But as we have all seen, they have failed.

Marketing is about getting the customer EXCITED about the product - which (again) does not need the product to be ready to sell.

And I really don't care if you THINK "we have all been around long enough to know a thing or two about what marketing is" because you obviously do not. It's THINKING you know but confusing selling with marketing. And the fact is, Newtek marketing of Lightwave is abysmal. There essentially is NO marketing.

You can argue all you want, but fact is you do not truly understand marketing.

TreyX
08-05-2017, 02:02 PM
137584

TheLexx
08-05-2017, 02:06 PM
Megalodon2.0, frustration expressed is possibly because many people are already very excited about the product, but don't know when it will land. Was Surrealist's post really that disagreeable ? Surely it hasn't now descended into being right at all costs ? Apologies to anyone if I'm guilty of that myself.

Megalodon2.0
08-05-2017, 02:08 PM
137584137585

Megalodon2.0
08-05-2017, 02:15 PM
Megalodon2.0, frustration expressed is possibly because many people are already very excited about the product, but don't know when it will land. Was Surrealist's post really that disagreeable ? Surely it hasn't now descended into being right at all costs ? Apologies to anyone if I'm guilty of that myself.

It's not about being "right at all costs," it's about being demonstrably WRONG. I can say the sky is made up of 90% oxygen... that would be wrong. Marketing is not specifically ABOUT the product - it is about reaching the customer and exciting the customer.

If I told you that Lightwave was the best at character animation... do you think you and everyone else would not argue?

And yes, many people are excited about the product called Lightwave - but just as many IF NOT MORE are frustrated. And that is due to the exceptionally poor MARKETING by Newtek.

I have been using LW since '95. In fact I'm using it right now - version 5.5 - because that's the last version my Lscript will work with. Then I will take it into my last upgraded version - which is 11. I WANT Newtek to properly market Lightwave - but they have continued to fail for so many years, I have given up on their marketing. And when someone clearly does not understand the concept... it is quite annoying. ;)

jperk
08-05-2017, 02:16 PM
its uh comin

Thomas Helzle
08-05-2017, 02:46 PM
Yeah but common, R10 was 11 years ago.

Houdini is an impressive piece of software, but how was it 11 years ago?

R10 just was the last version I actually bought, not the last I looked at. ;-)
I check out the demos every now and then but still feel the same about it as in 2000 - not my thing.

But back on topic:
Why is everybody so much into how Lightwave is "marketed"? As long as there's nothing new, I don't see much to get anybody excited over?
- If I would start out new and wouldn't have any money, I'd get into Blender.
- If I would start out and wanted a piece of the industry, I'd get into Max, Maya, Houdini or C4D.
No amount of marketing will change that much as long as there isn't some really tasty beef to put on the flyer...
You can only keep up suspense for a certain time, then you have to either deliver of cool it, otherwise people will go annoyed with you (see this thread).
All the possible promotions have been done, all the hints have been dropped that can be dropped (I guess).

So like SBowie wrote: go on with your life, either with or without LW. Second guessing LW3DG doesn't do anybody any good.

When the next version finally arrives, we'll find out if its worth our while...

Cheers,

Tom

TheLexx
08-05-2017, 02:54 PM
Thomas, may I ask if your increasing use of GPU rendering with Redshift over Octane is due to compatibility issues or because you prefer the results better with Redshift ?

SBowie
08-05-2017, 03:17 PM
Steve, try to keep in mind, this discussion went in this particular direction (this time) because key contact email addresses provided on the site were bouncing (or not yielding responses) -- it isn't actually as easy to grab another (working) email contact to use as you're suggesting.True enough, and please forgive me for not trawling through them myself. If all else fails for bug reporting, use the public bug for posted in the TriCaster area - it's all the same database anyway in the end, and will be redirected as appropriate. But in the present context, i.e., looking for somewhere to complain about the current situation, really, it's a wasted effort, as must surely be clear. Why bother just beating round and round the same bush?

Thomas Helzle
08-05-2017, 03:29 PM
Thomas, is your increasing use of GPU rendering with Redshift over Octane due to compatibility issues or because you like the results better with Redshift ?

I was using Thea Render for years as my main photoreal renderer, it's the unbiased renderer I like the most and it's also the fastest for me, since it's using CPU and GPU at the same time. The integration in Rhino is very good and fluid.
But since it's not integrated into Houdini, it became a growing pain to export to Thea Studio and you can't transport animation that way. It's possible to export as alembic into Blender and use Thea Render there, but that's also quite roundabout.
And it does not help that the company behind Thea was bought by Altair last year and since then has rather strange communications, so nobody really knows where it's going ATM.
I hope it's not another Autodesk/XSI.

Redshift over Octane (I bought both) is simply because Redshift is much better integrated. It supports a lot of what Houdini can do and many studios are using it (the final trigger for buying it was a motion graphics job where I had to know it). It's a "production renderer" with almost all the bells and whistles you'd expect.
Development pace is also good.

Octane is a funny renderer. Can do great stuff, but I always found it weird and quite limited in scope. It's integration in Houdini is okay for simple things, but even the most common color-attribute ("Cd") has to be shoehorned into it via misusing a UV channel and piping that into a gradient... 3.1 with OSL is supposed to solve that, but it's rather long in the coming...

I am not too hot about neither Octane nor Redshift, it's more about getting work done with what's available.
You can get good results with both, it depends more on what you need.

Me using GPU over CPU is simply because Mantra is very good but also very slow.
It makes more sense for me to invest in GPUs than into a renderfarm - much more flexible for a single artist like me.

Cheers,

Tom

jeric_synergy
08-05-2017, 04:04 PM
Why is everybody so much into how Lightwave is "marketed"? As long as there's nothing new, I don't see much to get anybody excited over?


One thing is: people think up new ways to approach things, even with the existing feature set. Rebel Hill, Ryan Roye, and Mark Warner are all doing interesting, NON-OBVIOUS stuff with the existing toolset, and 3rd Powers, for one, is adding new capabilities via plugins.

Giving the non-disputed bleeding away of users, doing a little remedial marketing to stanch the blood might be A Good Thing. Showing that LW can indeed be used for mograph might net a few customers that otherwise would bite the bullet and hock their car to get C4D.

Megalodon2.0
08-05-2017, 04:47 PM
Giving the non-disputed bleeding away of users, doing a little remedial marketing to stanch the blood might be A Good Thing. Showing that LW can indeed be used for mograph might net a few customers that otherwise would bite the bullet and hock their car to get C4D.

Agreed! :thumbsup:

TreyX
08-05-2017, 04:59 PM
mograph is def an area of improvement LW could make, but i fear it is not addressed in the upcoming release. for those looking for an excellent mograph setup, i would recommend red giant trapcode suite 14 (the whole bundle) + after effects cc 2017. this will give you all the mograph tools you need. particular 3, form, mir all have OBJ support, you can save your LW models as OBJ, import them into trapcode, and use them as emitters for dazzling FX. and the presets that come out of the box are mind boggling and completely unlimited. plus, all plugs are integrated to work together, so you can have everything from sound-based motion, unlimited particle FX, 3D strokes, landscapes & gradient environments all in one composition... if ur a mograph designer (like me), and wish to stick with LW, this is the absolute best solution on the market, and the most affordable.


https://youtu.be/yzcpBHcA_rs

Surrealist.
08-05-2017, 05:40 PM
lol... Yeah that's right. LightWave's issues all solved through marketing. But because it is apparently possible to fantasize that marketing can exist without a product. I guess it is also possible to fantasize it can exist for features that don't exist. So yeah. You guys are on a roll. Don't stop there. How about a marketing campaign to suggest that NewTek bought Softimage tech? Nevermind that is impossible. It is marketing. Which apparently supersedes reality.

Don't get me wrong though. Marketing can be used to do this. It happens all the time. Subjects that are not allowed here come to mind. Marketing campaigns are used to manufacture truth - all the time. Marketing is big business in Washington. Enough said.

However, seriously. For any subject or process or field of activity under the sun, underlying that practice, is the discipline to know when, how and why to apply it. And even more fundamentally if it should be applied at all. I can think of a few areas of our society where marketing should be banned!

But the concept of restraint is apparently a foreign concept to some people here. So it is not surprising that the idea that there are situations where one can and should withdrawal from an activity is a hard concept to grasp.

But all this said. None of us knows what is happening. It is all speculation. Some prefer to assert marketing is dropping the ball. I prefer to assume they know their business and have made a wise choice under the circumstances to back off from a release or information on the next version. The second scenario I choose to assume is that a large release is eminent. And that they are hard at work preparing the largest release of LightWave in decades. Probably it is a combination of the two. Who knows?

What I do know is current marketing for the current version of LightWave is alive and well. It is actually quite slick, as I see it. So when the people who are hard a work with the website and monthly news letters and updates on Facebook are ready to put their attention on the next version of LightWave, I'll make the call they will do a good job of it.

What LighWave needs more than anything is features. Let's hope those features that were showcased are actually happening. And that Rob and the team can resolve any issues holding up production and get back on track. If that is what is happening.

Again, we don't really know.

Megalodon2.0
08-05-2017, 05:51 PM
lol... Yeah that's right. LightWave's issues all solved through marketing. But because it is apparently possible to fantasize that marketing can exist without a product. I guess it is also possible to fantasize it can exist for features that don't exist.

Yes I understand. You don't understand marketing. I get that now.

Carry on...

Surrealist.
08-05-2017, 06:21 PM
Suggestion. The post that I actually wrote, is right above yours. Which means people can just look up and see the full version of what I actually said.

Quoting out of context is only effective if a) the person bites. Which I won't. Or b) is too far down the thread for people to bother to look back.

Either way I am past the limit of repeating myself.

shrox
08-05-2017, 06:56 PM
Market is often: cute girl and product.

Megalodon2.0
08-05-2017, 09:25 PM
Either way I am past the limit of repeating myself.

What a coincidence.... so am I.

jeric_synergy
08-05-2017, 10:16 PM
mograph is def an area of improvement LW could make, but i fear it is not addressed in the upcoming release. for those looking for an excellent mograph setup, ...(ETC)
Good to know. :caffeine:

jwiede
08-06-2017, 12:59 AM
lol... Yeah that's right. LightWave's issues all solved through marketing. But because it is apparently possible to fantasize that marketing can exist without a product. I guess it is also possible to fantasize it can exist for features that don't exist. So yeah. You guys are on a roll. Don't stop there. How about a marketing campaign to suggest that NewTek bought Softimage tech? Nevermind that is impossible. It is marketing. Which apparently supersedes reality.

Don't get me wrong though. Marketing can be used to do this. It happens all the time. Subjects that are not allowed here come to mind. Marketing campaigns are used to manufacture truth - all the time. Marketing is big business in Washington. Enough said.

However, seriously. For any subject or process or field of activity under the sun, underlying that practice, is the discipline to know when, how and why to apply it. And even more fundamentally if it should be applied at all. I can think of a few areas of our society where marketing should be banned!

But the concept of restraint is apparently a foreign concept to some people here. So it is not surprising that the idea that there are situations where one can and should withdrawal from an activity is a hard concept to grasp.

But all this said. None of us knows what is happening. It is all speculation. Some prefer to assert marketing is dropping the ball. I prefer to assume they know their business and have made a wise choice under the circumstances to back off from a release or information on the next version. The second scenario I choose to assume is that a large release is eminent. And that they are hard at work preparing the largest release of LightWave in decades. Probably it is a combination of the two. Who knows?

What I do know is current marketing for the current version of LightWave is alive and well. It is actually quite slick, as I see it. So when the people who are hard a work with the website and monthly news letters and updates on Facebook are ready to put their attention on the next version of LightWave, I'll make the call they will do a good job of it.

What LighWave needs more than anything is features. Let's hope those features that were showcased are actually happening. And that Rob and the team can resolve any issues holding up production and get back on track. If that is what is happening.

Again, we don't really know.

You've repeatedly referred to advertising as marketing. Advertising is part of sales, not marketing. Levitt's statement (and career work) explicitly points out that distinction, yet you continue to argue as if they're one and the same.

Marketing occurs before, throughout, and after the development process. Marketing is what drives the priorities of development, in tracking customer/market needs, customer satisfaction and feedback, and ensuring that what engineering is producing prioritizes the needs of customers. Marketing even resolves the priority disputes when development directions and choices need to be made (f.e. in bug & feature request work item prioritization). Engineering is not a self-serving/self-driven organization, engineering serves product and market development. Product and (foreshadowing) market development are part of _marketing_, those are marketing tasks (NOT sales/advertising tasks).

Put another way, marketing is what ensures the deliverables from engineering are something customers actually want/need, because engineering is neither qualified nor in touch with customers and markets enough to make such decisions. Marketing and engineering work very, very closely together, if that wasn't obvious.

No matter how many times you repeat it, your assertion that marketing has nothing to do until development/product completion is fundamentally incorrect.

hrgiger
08-06-2017, 01:58 AM
And no I'm going to have to disagree with you Richard on what LightWave needs more than anything. Its not features. What it needs to do is address longstanding limitations that have caused LightWave to bleed users over the last several years to other software packages that didn't suffer from them.

gar26lw
08-06-2017, 02:22 AM
Jwiede is spot on.

Listen to users, give them what they want. Fix what they want fixed. Provide fixes and features in a timely manner. Communicate with customers. It's pretty simple, really, isnt it?

Anyone watch Ramsey's kitchen nightmares?

wingzeta
08-06-2017, 02:22 AM
You've repeatedly referred to advertising as marketing. Advertising is part of sales, not marketing. Levitt's statement (and career work) explicitly points out that distinction, yet you continue to argue as if they're one and the same.

Marketing occurs before, throughout, and after the development process. Marketing is what drives the priorities of development, in tracking customer/market needs, customer satisfaction and feedback, and ensuring that what engineering is producing prioritizes the needs of customers. Marketing even resolves the priority disputes when development directions and choices need to be made (f.e. in bug & feature request work item prioritization). Engineering is not a self-serving/self-driven organization, engineering serves product and market development. Product and (foreshadowing) market development are part of _marketing_, those are marketing tasks (NOT sales/advertising tasks).

Put another way, marketing is what ensures the deliverables from engineering are something customers actually want/need, because engineering is neither qualified nor in touch with customers and markets enough to make such decisions. Marketing and engineering work very, very closely together, if that wasn't obvious.

No matter how many times you repeat it, your assertion that marketing has nothing to do until development/product completion is fundamentally incorrect.

Exactly! It's about managing the relationship with the customer, before, during and after release. A marketing strategy should be concerned with marketing the very idea and values of Lightwave, beyond any particular release. It should be ongoing. It will take much more work to build momentum from standing still, than from already rolling. Going into blackout mode, is not a responsible approach to maintain the relationship with customers. Communicating doesn't mean you have to reveal secrets, just keep the conversation going.

50one
08-06-2017, 02:51 AM
Well, yeah. So many times we have started it's a disaster that no need to do that again. Well known fact. Happy Sunday everyone.

Marander
08-06-2017, 02:59 AM
You've repeatedly referred to advertising as marketing. Advertising is part of sales, not marketing.

Exactly, very well put.

Surrealist.
08-06-2017, 03:21 AM
And no I'm going to have to disagree with you Richard on what LightWave needs more than anything. Its not features. What it needs to do is address longstanding limitations that have caused LightWave to bleed users over the last several years to other software packages that didn't suffer from them.

Steven. Yes. I agree. That is absolutely what I meant when I said that. "Features" is just a shorthand way of saying that. Assuming that there are people such as yourself that don't need it pointed out. And know what I am referring to.

New people. Rest assured. These things are being worked on. It is just going to take some time.

Surrealist.
08-06-2017, 05:15 AM
You've repeatedly referred to advertising as marketing. Advertising is part of sales, not marketing. Levitt's statement (and career work) explicitly points out that distinction, yet you continue to argue as if they're one and the same.



Sure I get you. I think there is more information to consider. And I was trying to avoid a long post to explain everything I know. So I will try to be as brief as I can. I don't expect you to agree. But this is my understanding.

This quote here:


"Selling concerns itself with the tricks and techniques of getting people to exchange their cash for your product. It is not concerned with the values that the exchange is all about. And it does not, as marketing invariable does, view the entire business process as consisting of a tightly integrated effort to discover, create, arouse and satisfy customer needs." In other words, marketing has less to do with getting customers to pay for your product as it does developing a demand for that product and fulfilling the customer's needs."



Did not include your interpretation that they are fundamentally separate. At least not in the way you seem to be trying to put it. I might need more clarification on what you mean there. But here is my understanding.

Taking into account a fundamental understanding of marketing as a whole, before reading that, you will see that he is making the distinction as a very fine line between purely a sales approach and a marketing approach. Both have the same end product. To get someone to act, do something as he states "demand" (the product).

For example. Various approaches to sales can definitely be dethatched from the concept of marketing. If you want to be fundamentally purest and say that having a discount sale on an item is not marketing. It is sales. However, both have the end product of getting someone to act.

But from my understaing (study and practice in this field) you can not go the other way and say that Marketing is fundamentally dethatched from Advertising and Sales.

Both Sales and Advertising come under Marketing. They are not separate divisions or activity in the way I think you are trying to make this distinction. At least how I understand you are truing to make it. Correct me if I am wrong in that assumption.

Per basic definition this is what marketing is:


mar·ket·ing
[ˈmärkədiNG]

NOUN
the action or business of promoting and selling products or services, including market research and advertising.



And you don't have to dig to far to find this definition widespread in marketing education.

Basic Definition:


Marketing is the process of teaching consumers why they should choose your product or service over your competitors. If you are not doing that, you are not marketing. It’s that simple! The key is finding the right*marketing method*and defining the right*marketing message*to use to educate and influence your consumers. *
Companies make the mistake of thinking that marketing is just “one”*thing, but marketing is everything that the consumer encounters when it comes to your business, from advertising, to what they hear, to the customer service that they receive, to the follow-up care that you provide.

It’s all marketing and creating the decision within the consumer whether or not to choose you initially or for repeat business.**

Marketing is often confused with advertising and sales, but it is important to know the key differences.



On making the distinction I think this clarifies and adds weight to what the professor said:


Advertising: The paid, public, non-personal announcement of a persuasive message by an identified sponsor; the non-personal presentation or promotion by a firm of its products to its existing and potential customers.

Marketing: The systematic planning, implementation, and control of a mix of business activities intended to bring together buyers and sellers for the mutually advantageous exchange or transfer of products.

After reading both of the definitions it is easy to understand how the difference can be confusing to the point that people think of them as one-in-the-same.

So let's break it down a bit.

Advertising is a single component of the marketing process. It's the part that involves getting the word out concerning your business, product, or the services you are offering. It involves the process of developing strategies such as ad placement, frequency, etc.

So the more basic and broad definition of marketing is that it is the process by which you get people to feel a certain way which causes them to act. There are various activates in life that do not constitute "sales". In other words, money might not change hands at the end. At least not directly or right away. But marketing can be employed to get people to think a certain way and to act. Or even in some cases refrain from acting. But marketing always has an end product on those to whom it is being addressed. The end product is always motivation to act, or not act. In the case where marketing is applied to the selling and advertising of products, this is intended to cause a reach for the product which ends in a sale.

So in this case, no product, no marketing. By the most fundamental definition, purpose and aim of marketing.

In the case where you are selling a cause or an affiliation or trying to get people to vote or refrain from voting, there has to be an actual cause. You remove that cause or group or affiliation, it makes the use of marketing pointless.

Marketing gets involved in production because the end goal is to sell a product. And considerable amount of work can go into the development of a product so at the end of the day it is something that the customer will want to buy. And that is the only reason marketing is employed here. Because again, marketing includes under its general umbrella, sales and advertising. And Marketing informs and also supplies Advertising and Aales content. Marketing can also inform the product.

This is only a broad overview of marketing and it is leaving out a lot of details, techniques and practices. And is the first time in this thread I have actually talked about it specifically. If you disagree with this. I am OK with it. But truly it is the only time I have discussed it in detail. So if you disagree still we can leave it at that.

The short hand version I started with was that you remove the product and there is no need for marketing. And there are numerous reasons why this has happened in the past in industry at large. For all the good intentions from concept to production that marketing had, if at any point along the way, production had to cease or was strongly uncertain, marketing would have had to also cease and had then become strongly uncertain.

Marketing might tell you what to make but technology makes it. And if technology breaks down in such a way that it actually appears it can not produce a product, it immediately becomes the focus, not the marketing. And in the worse case scenario marketing of the product would cease until such a time as the technical issues that are stopping production are resolved. For this to happen it would have to be pretty bad and fairly uncertain if not completely impossible to produce.

And in my eyes endless and unpredictable delays over a number of years would qualify.

I would place my bet that this is what has happened in this case. Considering the lack of prediction. Again, who knows?

But because marketing is supposed to instill a sense of confidence, it is very easy to conclude that pulling back on marketing of a product once begun would be a very difficult decision. And as Steve Bowie has said, all of the ramifications would have to we weighed heavily.

So not really knowing anything more, I can conclude that 2015.3 is here and that is all that is presently being marketed. For good reasons - yet unknown.

Hope this helps add some background to my opinion.

But there need not be agreement. We can leave it as agree to disagree.

prometheus
08-06-2017, 05:39 AM
Market is often: cute girl and product.

Yeah..I have seen kikii, and the blogs.

50one
08-06-2017, 05:43 AM
So, now for the next twenty pages you guys gonna argue about definitions...

Guess what, almost next week and someone here said next week we're getting big announcement!

robertoortiz
08-06-2017, 06:28 AM
I do wonder is Newtek will try to sell of its LW IP?
The Code they have developed, warts and all, has a lot of value.

bazsa73
08-06-2017, 08:47 AM
There can be only one reason for this silence of immense magnitude. Namingly, that a new release is coming up, so keep faith brethren!

jeric_synergy
08-06-2017, 09:05 AM
There can be only one reason for this silence of immense magnitude. Namingly, that a new release is coming up, so keep faith brethren!

Wow. You are DEVOUT. @^@

JOKE:
Q: what did Jesus tell the Teamsters?
A: you guys take it easy, I'll be right back.

Verlon
08-06-2017, 09:09 AM
There can be only one reason for this silence of immense magnitude. Namingly, that a new release is coming up, so keep faith brethren!

There can only be one reason for silence of this magnitude: Autodesk bought Lightwave.
There can only be one reason for silence of this magnitude: NewTek bought Autodesk.
There can only be one reason for silence of this magnitude: Endless coding has turned the LW group into zombies, and the apocalypse is starting.
There can only be one reason for silence of this magnitude: Cats and dogs are living together.
There can only be one reason for silence of this magnitude: They are halving the price of tricasters.
There can only be one reason for silence of this magnitude: They are adding 'tricaster' to autocorrect dictionaries everywhere in a massive patch to all operating systems the world over.


So, I guess we will wait and see which only one reason it is.

next_n00b
08-06-2017, 09:34 AM
Marketing is responsible for product development and communication with the market. Its role is to drive product development according to market trends and opportunities, taking into account the expectations of potential users/consumers, and then communicate the product (or in general, the company and the brand) to them (communicate that the product exists, what it brings to the market, what are its benefits and uses etc.). Sales is responsible for executing the sales - from field operations (carrying out the distribution and taking care of point of sales) to final transactions.

In “old” business, marketing was primarily responsible for mass communications and marketing materials, especially advertising and direct marketing. In the course of its transition, marketing has also taken an important role in development and pricing. Today, in the digital world, marketing and sales are closely intertwined. Speaking of digital businesses where sales is a result of online conversions, marketing and sales work together as one. Since digital sales is based on user experience, website optimisations and analytical data crunching, which are responsibilities of marketing, the roles of marketing and sales are not divided in a traditional sense, moreover, marketing has overtaken a sales role. More so, the role of online sales has moved marketing higher on a management scale, which is the most contemporarily exhibited through the role of growth-hacking. In small companies, growth-hacking is done by executive/C level people.

In large corporations as well as in traditional businesses the typical distinction between marketing and sales still exists, especially in b2b companies, brick-and-mortar retail, pharmacy, telco etc.

Verlon
08-06-2017, 12:18 PM
Sales,marketing, lawyers, NDAs, global conspiracies, and C-staff can blame each other individually or collectively. It doesn't matter. Saying "it's not my job to help you," has pretty much never won over new customers.

So any problem here is Newtek's. They can blame internally however they like. They have managers to do that. As Steve noted, someone made a decision not to communicate with us. Now I suppose we decide if we accept this or not. Is the next release amazing enough to win your heart? Have you already blown that budget? Are you even listening anymore? Newtek obviously feels that what they have up their sleeve is worth the risk. I guess we will see (if paying attention anyway).

- - - Updated - - -

Sales,marketing, lawyers, NDAs, global conspiracies, and C-staff can blame each other individually or collectively. It doesn't matter. Saying "it's not my job to help you," has pretty much never won over new customers.

So any problem here is Newtek's. They can blame internally however they like. They have managers to do that. As Steve noted, someone made a decision not to communicate with us. Now I suppose we decide if we accept this or not. Is the next release amazing enough to win your heart? Have you already blown that budget? Are you even listening anymore? Newtek obviously feels that what they have up their sleeve is worth the risk. I guess we will see (if paying attention anyway).

CaptainMarlowe
08-06-2017, 12:25 PM
There can only be one reason for silence of this magnitude: Endless coding has turned the LW group into zombies, and the apocalypse is starting.

Me like it.

- - - Updated - - -



There can only be one reason for silence of this magnitude: Endless coding has turned the LW group into zombies, and the apocalypse is starting.

Me like it.

Paul_Boland
08-06-2017, 12:35 PM
I have another possibility for the silence. We know Newtek broke off Lightwave from its core by creating the LW3DG. But if the LW3DG is only responsible for Lightwave, then there isn't a lot of income coming their way. The development team are working week to week for nothing except for the occasional sale that pops up, and I would say those are few and far apart because with no news on Lightwave development, no one is buying it.

The result of this is, the team obviously needing to make a living, are working on other projects, Lightwave is not their sole job, and since Lightwave's user base is small, and shrinking (again due to no information on future development), Lightwave is low priority for them to work on it. As a result, and given some interesting feedback some have posted to the forums about communicating with LW3DG and being told the software is nowhere near production ready, I would say that Lightwave Next is nowhere hear finished. It gets worked on from time to time, but it is not the core project for the employees who are in LW3DG, it is their secondary project, and with development progressing slowly, there is nothing to report, and hence the months/years long silence.

Just my theory, but seems to make sense.

TheLexx
08-06-2017, 01:32 PM
Paul, bear in mind these speculations take place among other software too, even worried Modo users who have noted (http://community.foundry.com/discuss/topic/133597/re-modo-s-future)that Modo is an insect compared to Nuke for financial returns for Foundry, so I think companies generally look at a bigger picture - though I think Foundry have far more reason to fear Fusion 9 than Newtek does.

My own idle speculation is that Lightwave Next could have been ready to go, but the code rewrite was offset against the needs of those who balked at the implications for broken backwards compatibility. I recall early fears that Denis Pontonnier's plugins would not be compatible, etc. Maybe it became a "To be, or not to be ?" moment for LW in terms of coding compared to their original plans. But little slips from users like juanjgon convince me all is well.

Verlon
08-06-2017, 03:43 PM
And double posting is back.

djwaterman
08-06-2017, 04:02 PM
So, now for the next twenty pages you guys gonna argue about definitions...

Guess what, almost next week and someone here said next week we're getting big announcement!

Yeah, that might've been me, and it's true. Just not LW related. Just to be clear.

SBowie
08-06-2017, 04:36 PM
Marketing is responsible for product development and communication with the market. Its role is to drive product development according to market trends and opportunities, taking into account the expectations of potential users/consumers, and then ...This is generally correct, but probably less true at NewTek than most places these days. NewTek is a small, privately owned concern, really founded by and run by impassioned engineers. To this day (and for better or worse as you like) engineering tends to play a more central role in product development decisions than in traditional settings. I kind of like this, but I'm certainly biased. :)


And double posting is back.I think it's an echo ... echo .... echo ... (sorry, someone was going to say it eventually).

TreyX
08-06-2017, 05:29 PM
This is generally correct, but probably less true at NewTek than most places these days. NewTek is a small, privately owned concern, really founded by and run by impassioned engineers. To this day (and for better or worse as you like) engineering tends to play a more central role in product development decisions than in traditional settings. I kind of like this, but I'm certainly biased. :)

I think it's an echo ... echo .... echo ... (sorry, someone was going to say it eventually).

actually, steve, this now makes a LOT of sense, to me anyway, who has worked for many years with Engineering clients. i was not aware that NT is in this biz structure category until now.

for those in the LW community who are not familiar with an engineer-heavy team, there is much more of an internal emphasis on code and development than external relations & marketing. one of my engineering clients told me a joke once, which was gloriously self-depreciating:

"how can you identify an extroverted engineer?"

A: "they'll look at your shoes"

albeit a bit frustrating for me at times being a very right-brained individual, an understanding of the engineering focus is imperative to working with them on a creative level. and i have to say sincerely, it is very rare to find an engineer who is brilliant @ marketing to non-engineers, hence the need for an internal, experienced marketing professional. that person is tasked with bridging the gap btw the lines of code/back-end development and communicating effectively with the end-user customer. on a technical level (addressing bugs, assessing needs for usability and performance improvements, etc.), the engineer is the big kahuna, and you're probably getting an engineering individual on the other end of technical & support inquiries.

so, having been armed with this incredibly enlightening bit of info (thanks, Steve!), i ask the community here to please acknowledge and understand that you are not working with a slick autodesk or adobe marketing team, but a group of dedicated hardware and software engineers who are more focused on creating a stable UX/feature set, with a much lower-priority focus on communication with the world at large and agitated community.

i, for one, am patient. and now have a keener perspective on the inner-workings of newtek.

gar26lw
08-06-2017, 05:32 PM
To this day (and for better or worse as you like) engineering tends to play a more central role in product development decisions than in traditional settings. I kind of like this, but I'm certainly biased. :).

That's fine but the problem is that if engineers don't listen or understand users and consider what they want in terms of workflow and functionality, they engineer a product that may list a series of features and tools but when those features are used by creatives in a day to day production workflow, they fall down. This is What Matt is there for, right? To bring some of the Artists/UX to the dev?

I can give some examples from my workflows that drive me nuts.

1. When saving PSD (and other) files on PC, the file extension is no appended automatically. The engineer reply may be just type it. NO. It a pita when doing things.

2. UV editing requires unwelding geometry to make changes. (Been like this since inception in version 6!) If not, UV's are destroyed.

3. Baking camera does not edge pad/dilate pixels correctly thus making mip maps on baked textures have lines in them.

4. Many tools don't work across layers

5. Multishift doesn't respect grid snap /units like the standard bevel tool

6. Lists in layout have small windows, making it hard to select items - properties panels etc.

7. UI doesnt scale properly with high res screens.

8. Layout bombs out with VPR use and scene navigation.

Seem like small things but really break workflow. These small things are the things that make life misery when you add them all up over time.

I hope this stuff is fixed in whatever comes out. Patch or next or whatever.

cheers

SBowie
08-06-2017, 05:42 PM
That's fine but the problem is that if engineers don't listen or understand users and consider what they want in terms of workflow and functionality, they engineer a product that may list a series of features and tools but when those features are used by creatives in a day to day production workflow, they fall down.Yeah, I'm aware it is a two-edged sword...

Rayek
08-06-2017, 06:55 PM
For those looking for an excellent mograph setup, i would recommend red giant trapcode suite 14 (the whole bundle) + after effects cc 2017. this will give you all the mograph tools you need.

https://youtu.be/yzcpBHcA_rs

IF only it wasn't for AfterEffects... If only Particular would be available for Fusion.

TreyX
08-06-2017, 07:25 PM
IF only it wasn't for AfterEffects... If only Particular would be available for Fusion.

AE is a superior product, overall, with much more industry support than fusion. as a budget (and dongled ;D ) app with a focus on 3D compositing, fusion is awesome and well worth owning! but for motion graphics professionals, AE is the industry standard (my studio does more mograph and video production than anything, so this is of particular (pun intended) interest to me). the trapcode plugin set is the best in the biz for visual FX and mograph pipelines.

like LW, AE is highly customized by plugins, which is very cool. both have an excellent core, and can be made as powerful and robust as you need them to be via 3rd party extensions. fusion is very limited in that regard, tho, unfortunately....

Surrealist.
08-06-2017, 11:59 PM
That's fine but the problem is that if engineers don't listen or understand users and consider what they want in terms of workflow and functionality,

I think this is a general misconception. Software deisign is all about the end user. I can say this as I work directly with a software design team. It is the main focus. This is then balanced with functionality in a smaller team especially. And with a one man team, functionality is highest on the list and user experience lowest.

So it is always a balance.

And if you have feedback. I am not sure if you have used it yet but there is a place in your accounts page. Just FYI :)

But from there then it is a matter of understanding the cross they have to bear with literally 100s of bugs and new features that are needed. So priority has to be given to some things over others. If yours is not addressed - as obvious and simple as it may seem to you - it does not mean they don't care or listen. They have priorities and finally there might be some things that simply can not be changed due to limitations in the code.

And coming back full circle to the topic at hand. Steven (hrgiger) said it best. There have been a lot of things we have needed over the years. And the excuse most of the time, when we finally did get them to open up, was well we have tried but it is not possible with the current code base.

So that leads us exactly to where we are. When you stop and think about it. This is a huge issue. It means literally stopping everything to start over. And that means something would have to sacrifice. Either they drop everything and develop Core which they tried, in which case LightWave development stops in its tracks. 10-20 years later we would get a new application. Or they try to update LightWave along the way, and 10 -20 years later we have a new app. But LightWave development does not stop in the mean time.

So we will see where this goes and how it winds up. But they are certainly over all doing the right thing in my opinion. Maybe not perfectly. But at least doing their best from what I can see.

sami
08-07-2017, 12:35 AM
...engineering tends to play a more central role in product development decisions than in traditional settings...

Legacy video engineers no doubt. It all makes sense now. :foreheads

Modern engineers aren't afraid of being cross-discipline and have respect for marketing and user experience etc. Eventually the arrogance of these dinosaur-engineers will be their demise, as new user-centric and business-savvy engineers take over - making things better for both customers and their bottom line.

It can't happen soon enough for me.

Surrealist.
08-07-2017, 12:57 AM
That is a stretch. Where do you get that from? LightWave and the Video Toaster when it hit the market 26 years ago was developed by a passionate group of young engineers who created arguably the most user-friendly video and 3D environment on the market. At that time, compared to the competition. And this trend has continued on to the present.

All a smaller team means is they wear multiple hats. And in this situation more than others they have to be concerned about user input.

50one
08-07-2017, 01:11 AM
Yeah, that might've been me, and it's true. Just not LW related. Just to be clear.

Seriously?!

50one
08-07-2017, 02:01 AM
OK, so wondering now, what's the point of coming to this thread and saying that there will be big announcement - while it's not LW related??

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?153664-Three-months-no-release-no-FB-posts-since-early-April-etc&p=1513501&viewfull=1#post1513501

Here's the original post :


There'll be a big announcement next week. I can't be any more specific sorry.


@DJ - Nowhere in this post you say it won't be LW related. Were you just taking a piss mate?

jwiede
08-07-2017, 02:37 AM
OK, so wondering now, what's the point of coming to this thread and saying that there will be big announcement - while it's not LW related??

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?153664-Three-months-no-release-no-FB-posts-since-early-April-etc&p=1513501&viewfull=1#post1513501

Here's the original post :




@DJ - Nowhere in this post you say it won't be LW related. Were you just taking a piss mate?

So I'm guessing you didn't actually read his response in same thread (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?153664-Three-months-no-release-no-FB-posts-since-early-April-etc&p=1513508&viewfull=1#post1513508) (approx. nine minutes after you asked for clarification there)?

Chris S. (Fez)
08-07-2017, 02:51 AM
Every other product in Newtek's portfolio is amazingly well priced and implemented for it's target markets. Lightwave in its current incarnation, much as I love it, does not have the specifications or portfolio to compete. Investing in advertising now would be a waste. I disagree with the degree of silence and am frustrated by the lack of maintenance for LW 2015 but, then again, I think development is taking more time than anticipated. The new geometry engine makes it all worth the wait. Such performance gains have huge implications and potential for use in many markets, including Newtek's current primary "Live" market.

In any case, Lightwave needs to reclaim its Newtek identity terms of branding and integration with other products. Perhaps the viewports in the next version of Lightwave will ultimately have the tech and performance to allow "live" 3D to be integrated into the Newtek suites already out there.

50one
08-07-2017, 02:53 AM
So I'm guessing you didn't actually read his response in same thread (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?153664-Three-months-no-release-no-FB-posts-since-early-April-etc&p=1513508&viewfull=1#post1513508) (approx. nine minutes after you asked for clarification there)?

Hmmm, somehow missed it.

Very cruel, must admit lol.

mav3rick
08-07-2017, 03:54 AM
Every other product in Newtek's portfolio is amazingly well priced and implemented for it's target markets. Lightwave in its current incarnation, much as I love it, does not have the specifications or portfolio to compete. Investing in advertising now would be a waste. I disagree with the degree of silence and am frustrated by the lack of maintenance for LW 2015 but, then again, I think development is taking more time than anticipated. The new geometry engine makes it all worth the wait. Such performance gains have huge implications and potential for use in many markets, including Newtek's current primary "Live" market.

In any case, Lightwave needs to reclaim its Newtek identity terms of branding and integration with other products. Perhaps the viewports in the next version of Lightwave will ultimately have the tech and performance to allow "live" 3D to be integrated into the Newtek suites already out there.

not gonna happen....

gar26lw
08-07-2017, 04:06 AM
And if you have feedback. I am not sure if you have used it yet but there is a place in your accounts page. Just FYI :)
.

Oh, I did not know that. Thanks. I'll check that out.

gar26lw
08-07-2017, 04:12 AM
But from there then it is a matter of understanding the cross they have to bear with literally 100s of bugs and new features that are needed. So priority has to be given to some things over others. If yours is not addressed - as obvious and simple as it may seem to you - it does not mean they don't care or listen. They have priorities and finally there might be some things that simply can not be changed due to limitations in the code.

And coming back full circle to the topic at hand. Steven (hrgiger) said it best. There have been a lot of things we have needed over the years. And the excuse most of the time, when we finally did get them to open up, was well we have tried but it is not possible with the current code base.

So that leads us exactly to where we are. When you stop and think about it. This is a huge issue. It means literally stopping everything to start over. And that means something would have to sacrifice. Either they drop everything and develop Core which they tried, in which case LightWave development stops in its tracks. 10-20 years later we would get a new application. Or they try to update LightWave along the way, and 10 -20 years later we have a new app. But LightWave development does not stop in the mean time.

So we will see where this goes and how it winds up. But they are certainly over all doing the right thing in my opinion. Maybe not perfectly. But at least doing their best from what I can see.

Yeah, good points. I do understand. I think making use of of that feedback channel will be the way to go.

gar26lw
08-07-2017, 04:16 AM
That is a stretch. Where do you get that from? LightWave and the Video Toaster when it hit the market 26 years ago was developed by a passionate group of young engineers who created arguably the most user-friendly video and 3D environment on the market. At that time, compared to the competition. And this trend has continued on to the present.

All a smaller team means is they wear multiple hats. And in this situation more than others they have to be concerned about user input.

Yeah I think they did an awesome job, the fact that we are all still using it and loving the app says a lot about just how much they got it right. I think it's also part of the reason we are so concerned about changes, updates and new versions.

Chris S. (Fez)
08-07-2017, 04:18 AM
not gonna happen....

Why not? They are investing a small fortune in Lightwave's future and broadcast graphics are directly related to their primary market.

50one
08-07-2017, 04:44 AM
Why not?

Look at the past 10 yrs and past two in detail.
LW will be stuck in that "I thought it was dead!" state for who knows how long, trying to catch up.

Surrealist.
08-07-2017, 05:33 AM
Can't focus on that. There is no such thing as catch up. Imagine trying to live your life like that. May as well just hang yourself and get it over with...😄

This isn't race. Just another choice in software.

Marander
08-07-2017, 05:34 AM
Look at the past 10 yrs and past two in detail.
LW will be stuck in that "I thought it was dead!" state for who knows how long, trying to catch up.

It always puzzled me why the synergy of the NewTek broadcast products and LightWave are not used. The opposite happened, LW3DG was split off NewTek in a way. Weird but I guess now it's too late. As far as I understand NewTek broadcast products have a pretty good industry reputation while LightWave doesn't.

50one
08-07-2017, 05:50 AM
I know right? With some effort they had a chance to dominate the editing/mograph/vfx market...but like I said in the past depends who's the captain of this ship. Really wasted opportunity there.

Chris S. (Fez)
08-07-2017, 05:52 AM
It always puzzled me why the synergy of the NewTek broadcast products and LightWave are not used. The opposite happened, LW3DG was split off NewTek in a way. Weird but I guess now it's too late. As far as I understand NewTek broadcast products have a pretty good industry reputation while LightWave doesn't.

Next could be considered a fresh start for Lightwave and launched within the Newtek product line. Depends if it is truly worthy to be a flagship product alongside Tricaster and offers a few clear advantages over the competition beyond being affordable. We'll know soon enough.

hrgiger
08-07-2017, 06:00 AM
Why not? They are investing a small fortune in Lightwave's future and broadcast graphics are directly related to their primary market.

What indication do we have that they're investing any significant money into LightWave future other than paying the developers they currently have on hand? They can't seem to fill the modeling developer position they've had open for years, they're not doing any type of promotion or marketing of LightWave that we've seen, they certainly weren't showing anything at trade shows...I see no correlation between what Newtek is doing with broadcasting and what lw3dg is doing with LightWave.

Marander
08-07-2017, 06:19 AM
Next could be considered a fresh start for Lightwave and launched within the Newtek product line. Depends if it is truly worthy to be a flagship product alongside Tricaster and offers a few clear advantages over the competition beyond being affordable. We'll know soon enough.

Yes true, if LWNext rocks that could be a chance.

To me a feasible explanation for the delay is that they licensed their new renderer for another 3rd party product and have to wait for its integration before they can release it with LW. But there are not many tools that could use it, maybe Fusion? Maybe Blackmagic Design is buying LW3DG? Actually I think that would be the best that could happen.

Chris S. (Fez)
08-07-2017, 06:31 AM
What indication do we have that they're investing any significant money into LightWave future other than paying the developers they currently have on hand? They can't seem to fill the modeling developer position they've had open for years, they're not doing any type of promotion or marketing of LightWave that we've seen, they certainly weren't showing anything at trade shows...I see no correlation between what Newtek is doing with broadcasting and what lw3dg is doing with LightWave.

Core failure cost them millions. They have at least a few full-time developers which, given the prolonged development, has slowly but surely becomes a significant investment for a privately held company. They would not be making this investment if they are not vaguely confident they can cover their costs and more. The launch of Next, how and where it is marketed, should clarify Newtek's commitment to Lightwave. As for the future of Lightwave, that will likely depend entirely on how well Next is received. The correlation is broadcast. Lightwave was once a beast in broadcast, a market Newtek knows well. Live 3D directly relates to their primary market: http://blog.newtek.com/blog/2017/04/24/newtek-vizrt-bring-real-time-3d-graphics-to-4k-uhd-ip-workflows/

Matt is in San Antonio now, so perhaps there is some cross-over development. I have no idea. It makes little sense to me to have all that Lightwave and Tricaster tech under one roof and not aim to offer an integrated vertical solution for live virtual sets and characters and such.

gar26lw
08-07-2017, 06:40 AM
I think they are going back to their roots. Just newtek.

hrgiger
08-07-2017, 06:44 AM
Core failure cost them millions.

Well i think thats an exaggeration. 3D market is not huge and for LW is quite small. Id be surprised if they made more than between 1 or 2 million an upgrade cycle so to say core cost them millions is likely overblown.
The newtek product you linked to has no connection or correlation with Lightwave.

Surrealist.
08-07-2017, 07:04 AM
Actually I am not so much in favor of LightWave being position with the Tricaster.


The process of creating an image of a product in the minds of the consumers is called as positioning. Positioning helps to create first impression of brands in the minds of target audience. In simpler words positioning helps in creating a perception of a product or service amongst the consumers.



With all due respect to those in the broadcast business and mograph and the like. I do know there is money there. But...

By comparison LightWave has always had the potential to be world class. VFX industry in my opinion does not position well with live broadcast.

Sin City, 300, etc. And other more recent efforts speak to a more creative audience. And I had always thought that the Video Toaster devalued LightWave and was real glad to see it split off, both physically and conceptually.

And I don't know. Maybe this goes deeper. Maybe this is the source of the original problem and split with the Modo team. Maybe this is why LightWave got letft behind. So I see it would be moving down if LightWave ever got positioned next to the TriCaster.

I think in light of this it would probably be the best thing for LightWave to just get sold to a company who really cares and is willing to spend serious dollars on development to finish this thing and bring LightWave back.

Chris S. (Fez)
08-07-2017, 07:12 AM
Well i think thats an exaggeration. 3D market is not huge and for LW is quite small. Id be surprised if they made more than between 1 or 2 million an upgrade cycle so to say core cost them millions is likely overblown.
The newtek product you linked to has no connection or correlation with Lightwave.

Again, the correlation is broadcast. That product is a tool for broadcasting live 3D content. Lightwave is a 3D content creation tool. If they are not already working on an integrated solution then they should be.

Core development alone cost a million minimum. The market share lost between the loss of confidence after the failure of Core, the scramble to regroup and release, and the ridiculously extended development cycle for Next I would guess easily adds up to millions. Lightwave really was everywhere 10 years ago. Now it is nowhere, relatively speaking. I don't think they would be working on Next if they were not hopeful they could win back market share and at least recover their losses.

Surrealist.
08-07-2017, 07:43 AM
Yes. But you have to look at it the other way too. It has been making them money. And it makes no sense to send the team off to Burbank, give them a new office and division if all it is doing is loosing money and would continue to do so for a long time. It is a private company. They don't have to announce a sale publically. They could have been privately and secretly shopping for a buyer this whole time while building up the case for a good sale with the infusion of new promising technology. Another fun thing to speculate. First a new division, second, develop the product, third, sell it off. He he he...I like the idea. :)

50one
08-07-2017, 07:49 AM
Yes. But you have to look at it the other way too. It has been making them money. And it makes no sense to send the team off to Burbank, give them a new office and division if all it is doing is loosing money and would continue to do so for a long time. It is a private company. They don't have to announce a sale publically. They could have been privately and secretly shopping for a buyer this whole time while building up the case for a good sale with the infusion of new promising technology. Another fun thing to speculate. First a new division, second, develop the product, third, sell it off. He he he...I like the idea. :)

Hope the buyer name rhymes with 'Black Magic Design'

Marander
08-07-2017, 08:12 AM
Hope the buyer name rhymes with 'Black Magic Design'

+1 That would be great

hrgiger
08-07-2017, 08:29 AM
Well its pointless to speculate about how much money lw is making or losing without any numbers but i would love to know exactly how lw is making any money given the low cost of lightwave, a shrinking userbase, and going 3 years without a significant influx of cash from software upgrades when other companies have to release once a year just to break even or make a profit. I guess lw3dg muat pay their people with gingerbread cookies to stay profitable...

Hail
08-07-2017, 08:36 AM
Hope the buyer name rhymes with 'Black Magic Design'


or Adobe... I imagine we'd have been renting lw for less than $100 a year. That would be great!

robertoortiz
08-07-2017, 08:36 AM
Hate to quick the LW people when they are down but there is another factor to consider.

The industry is moving now at warp speed, and we as artists have to adapt to survive.

Locally for us, most of the small studios in that I know in the DC area are looking to change development platforms.
(And I am not talking about moving to Maya and Cinema)
The program EVERYONE at SIGGRAPH was talking about was freaking HOUDINI.

HELL even old standbys are making a comeback.
Because of the forced transition from Metal ray to Arnold fiasco I know of lot of artists that
are looking at other solutions like Octane and even a resurgent RENDERMAN.


As a content development team lead for my agency NewTek Is making it REALLY HARD for me to even recommend us to keep using LW at the rate things are going.
Either I make a change, or my staff will FORCE to make one.

Surrealist.
08-07-2017, 08:59 AM
Hope the buyer name rhymes with 'Black Magic Design'

+2 On that. Was thinking the same thing.

Surrealist.
08-07-2017, 09:06 AM
Because of the forced transition from Metal ray to Arnold fiasco I know of lot of artists that
are looking at other solutions like Octane and even a resurgent RENDERMAN.


Even before this happened I was saying giving LightWave a new render solution was a very smart and viable thing to do. I still think so.