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sgmusic
07-26-2017, 01:46 PM
Didn't enjoy this video...maybe I'm late to the party...
First XSI now this??

A retrospective on what lead the the relative demise of the 3D animation software Lightwave
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiOX-D2B8LE

shrox
07-26-2017, 01:51 PM
Just stop already. Lightwave is not dead. The parrot is dead, not Lightwave...

sgmusic
07-26-2017, 01:57 PM
Again...I did not enjoy the video - but I do think he made many valid points.
who's the parrot?? is that a Monty Python reference?

So Lightwave is not dead...it's just resting?

shrox
07-26-2017, 01:58 PM
There have been a dozen threads like this. No more please.

sgmusic
07-26-2017, 02:02 PM
I'm honestly not trying to instigate anything. It just would be nice if someone in an official capacity was honest about the state of the software that so many people have spent years using and learning.

shrox
07-26-2017, 02:05 PM
Read the dozen other threads about it.

sgmusic
07-26-2017, 02:10 PM
I've read some and they're about as useful as this one.

prometheus
07-26-2017, 02:52 PM
I've read some and they're about as useful as this one.

Make another thread that will be very useful, maybe even more useful than this one...maybe.

And lightwave isnīt dead, though not being a norweigan blue.. I just poked on it, Itīs just resting..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj8RIEQH7zA

Chris S. (Fez)
07-26-2017, 05:34 PM
Far from dead. Read all about it here: https://blog.lightwave3d.com/

This is an ambitious release supposedly setting the foundations for the next 20 years of development. It is clearly taking more time than anticipated. But that is not necessarily a bad thing in the long run. The lack of communication regarding the delay is frustrating but...who knows...maybe the next newsletter will provide a development update.

RudySchneider
07-26-2017, 06:29 PM
I've read some and they're about as useful as this one.

Well if you've read them, you know as much about the state of Lightwave Next as the rest of us. Aside from a few teasers, Newtek has been very hush-hush on "the state" of the Next release.

erikals
07-26-2017, 07:07 PM
i "enjoy" watching a Youtube LightWave review from a person that clearly hasn't used LightWave in 10 years.

i mean, criticize LightWave all you want, but at least make it somewhat right.

a 10 year old could've made a more accurate video.

he didn't like the downvotes that video got, so he made another one, with far less views.

--------------

if you want to read critical + constructive views on LightWave, just stick to this forum, not to a publicity-horny Youtuber.

shrox
07-26-2017, 07:38 PM
Sorry to start off so negatively, the repeated claim that Lightwave is dead is starting to be like moon landing deniers to me.

Marander
07-26-2017, 11:54 PM
Sorry to start off so negatively, the repeated claim that Lightwave is dead is starting to be like moon landing deniers to me.

No no, it's true that the Russians landed on the moon, while Americans invented LightWave and employed some painters to fake it.

Kaptive
07-27-2017, 02:18 AM
Far from dead. Read all about it here: https://blog.lightwave3d.com/

This is an ambitious release supposedly setting the foundations for the next 20 years of development. It is clearly taking more time than anticipated. But that is not necessarily a bad thing in the long run. The lack of communication regarding the delay is frustrating but...who knows...maybe the next newsletter will provide a development update.

Indeed, there you go in a nut shell. Next topic...

p.s. Your moon landing analogy made me laugh shrox :D It's true!

Danner
07-27-2017, 02:18 AM
So this blender dev named Pablo goes to a 3d conference and someone asks him "what software do you use?" he replies "blender" the guy pats him on the back and says "oh I'm sorry.." Pablo then asks him. And the guy replies Softimage, Pablo pats him on the back and tells him, "oh I'm sorry". If you look at the way autodesk milks their costumers you could say "I'm sorry" to any Maya or Max legitimate user too. So what's my point? nothing really just found it interesting. I did watch one of the lightwave is dead videos and he put some blame on the forum, he comes complaining about some missing feature, people, instead of agreeing with him, picking up torches and burning the castle, go out of their way to try to help him solve his problem with workaround, and he gets mad about that..

50one
07-27-2017, 03:53 AM
I wouldn't say the video is far from truth also weird to see people personally attacking the uploader, that's his POV and you can either agree with it or not.

Community here is in bad shape, LWG did nothing to address the concerns and will do nothing, lack of communication and transparency with their customers is the number one sin.
If you guys don't see that, then I'm sorry but it only proves that there's something wrong with the community here.

Now, tell me, how come those blog posts are assuring you that LW "next" won't suffer from the same faith as CORE? Just like anyone else I want it to be released, don't care about timing - I want transparency, communication and being honest, you know as in proper relationship / customer - company.

gar26lw
07-27-2017, 04:47 AM
Far from dead. Read all about it here: https://blog.lightwave3d.com/

This is an ambitious release supposedly setting the foundations for the next 20 years of development. It is clearly taking more time than anticipated. But that is not necessarily a bad thing in the long run. The lack of communication regarding the delay is frustrating but...who knows...maybe the next newsletter will provide a development update.

that blogs dead :-p

djwaterman
07-27-2017, 04:56 AM
I agree, there were a lot of good points in that video.

Otterman
07-27-2017, 04:58 AM
Yeah this forum these days are monopolised by several key users who are pre occupied with moaning about the state of play of Lightwave instead of sharing their creative endeavours or offering up help to others. The FB lightwave group are far more productive and upbeat. What do you guys do all day anyways? Don't you have day jobs?

*runs for the exit

50one
07-27-2017, 05:52 AM
Me and my 20 kids lives of the welfare. Plenty of time to beat a dead horse(as in not moving but still breathing)

- - - Updated - - -


Yeah this forum these days are monopolised by several key users who are pre occupied with moaning about the state of play of Lightwave instead of sharing their creative endeavours or offering up help to others. The FB lightwave group are far more productive and upbeat. What do you guys do all day anyways? Don't you have day jobs?

*runs for the exit

Ohhh, quite the contrary, it's occupied by couple of key users left that moan about people moaning about lack of communication lol

Chris S. (Fez)
07-27-2017, 07:00 AM
The parts of the video where he is sharing his opinion are perfectly fine. The parts where he clearly did no research whatsoever warranted a response. Was he trolling or lazy or both?

He likely knew full well LW Group was working on Next and yet did not feel that information was pertinent? The gentleman seems to have an agenda.

Spinland
07-27-2017, 07:04 AM
The parts of the video where he is sharing his opinion are perfectly fine. The parts where he clearly did no research whatsoever warranted a response. Was he trolling or lazy or both?

This. The freedom to express opinions is a wonderful thing. So is the freedom to call shenanigans if any portion of said expression attempts to misrepresent factual information, or to assert things that can not be defended.

Otterman
07-27-2017, 07:14 AM
Me and my 20 kids lives of the welfare. Plenty of time to beat a dead horse(as in not moving but still breathing)

Ha should of known. No seriously no offence meant but this used to be such a vibrant and friendly community, In fact it was famed for being Lightwaves biggest asset. I can't ever see it getting back to those former days. Pastures new hey!

kopperdrake
07-27-2017, 07:33 AM
Didn't enjoy this video...maybe I'm late to the party...
First XSI now this??

A retrospective on what lead the the relative demise of the 3D animation software Lightwave
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiOX-D2B8LE

Guys - don't bait the troll!!

Three posts over six years ago, a couple from 2014, two "Mature Content" this year before this thread and now this?

8~

Spinland
07-27-2017, 07:38 AM
But...but...baiting the troll can be good sport when they dance on command. :devil:

gar26lw
07-27-2017, 07:51 AM
Ha should of known. No seriously no offence meant but this used to be such a vibrant and friendly community, In fact it was famed for being Lightwaves biggest asset. I can't ever see it getting back to those former days. Pastures new hey!

i don't know. everyone on here helps out with questions and problems pretty well.
it's pretty firendly and helpful with those that are left.

would not have the negativity with a bug fix or some update news.

just for a change, i'll biatch about something else.:) using modo atm and i think there is a bug in the light linking.
can't get exclusion to work correctly with shadow catcher alphas.
i also hate how you can't exclude geo like in lw. there's a bug in the fbx import with textures appearing as additive on import too that's not been fixed for years despite bug reports. grass isn't quite as green as you think but it is very well watered.
i feel better now :)

Spinland
07-27-2017, 07:56 AM
Interesting insights into MODO. I have yet ever to try that app out; I've also yet to see a cost/benefit ratio that would make it attractive over my decades with LW being everything I need. It's indeed true that every app has its blemishes and any "grass is greener" visions are fraught with potential for being unrealistic.

Just some silly maundering while I finish up my boring-*** morning studio administrivia. About to get back to the fun creative stuff. Woo hoo! :jam:

ON EDIT: "LW being everything I need" is inaccurate and overstating the case. My bad. More accurate: my existing tool set, of which LW is the centerpiece, makes whatever MODO brings to the table irrelevant to me—especially given the high cost of buy-in and the ensuing need to climb another learning curve. :)

50one
07-27-2017, 08:03 AM
i also hate how you can't exclude geo like in lw.

That annoys me as well in Modo.

Otterman
07-27-2017, 08:14 AM
i don't know. everyone on here helps out with questions and problems pretty well.
it's pretty firendly and helpful with those that are left.

would not have the negativity with a bug fix or some update news.

just for a change, i'll biatch about something else.:) using modo atm and i think there is a bug in the light linking.
can't get exclusion to work correctly with shadow catcher alphas.
i also hate how you can't exclude geo like in lw. there's a bug in the fbx import with textures appearing as additive on import too that's not been fixed for years despite bug reports. grass isn't quite as green as you think but it is very well watered.
i feel better now :)

I hear you there. I too am working in 3d software other than lightwave and Maya is not perfect by any stretch. I'm actually missing some features LW has on offer. That said, people like you and I are straying from Newtek nonetheless and the community is dwindling and those left behind despondent. Only wish Newtek get their act together before we all jump ship.

prometheus
07-27-2017, 10:18 AM
You simply do not state that a software has been killed, unless being officially discountinued based on statements from the lightwave or newtek folks, that is what it comes across as with itīs Title, wether or not the poster is showcasing why he may think it has halted or stagnated is another thing, but knowing fully that a major rewrite is under the hood, the post more reflects the frustration over the long development and lack of desired features and fixes more than any true assertments that Lightwave is killed off as not being worked on anymore or not even used anywhere.

In my opinion..I see a couple of reasons why this vid was presented as it was.

1. Lightwave has been discontinued, the lw group went to the dark side of the moon and sits there eating space pizza and listening to frank zinatra (not likely)
2. The vid demonstrator is so frustrated and tired of waiting and doesnīt see any significant improvements on lightwave and sees mostly long standing issues never resolved...(most likely)
3. the vid demonstrator is malicious and has a serious grudge towards newtek or the lightwave team ..almost posessed by the Autodesk devil himself (not likely)

djwaterman
07-27-2017, 10:30 AM
I'm just saying that there were actually a lot of good points in that video and why everyone be so sensitive to some constructive criticism from a user that knows his stuff. Most of us love LW but let people talk and have their say, especially if they decided to move on it's good to hear why.

Spinland
07-27-2017, 10:39 AM
why everyone be so sensitive to some constructive criticism from a user that knows his stuff.

My impression is the the bulk of the negative feedback on that video is from folks who have concluded: 1. it's not constructive, rather a hit piece, and 2. the author does not know his stuff at all and large parts of the video are full of shite.

So there's that.

ON EDIT: and here's full disclosure: I have yet to view said video, nor do I intend to. In my considerable life experience editorial materials that lead off with a clickbait title like that piece are merely axe-grinding and very, very unlikely to represent any sort of dispassionate relating of facts and well grounded conclusions—nor even of any useful actual information. Maybe some day someone will convince me to view an exception but until that happens I'm confident in concluding that piece would be an utter waste of my time.

ONE MORE THING: Heh. Not slamming you, man. You've long been a positive presence here. You did ask a question, though, and I'm presenting some points of view that (while you may not agree with them) might provide an answer as to why the reactions here to the video (including mine). It's all good in the end. :beerchug:

shrox
07-27-2017, 11:13 AM
I didn't look at the video. Don't need to. The OP asked a question that is just silly at this point. Like wondering if the Amiga existed...

Spinland
07-27-2017, 11:36 AM
Yeah this forum these days are monopolised by several key users who are pre occupied with moaning about the state of play of Lightwave instead of sharing their creative endeavours or offering up help to others. The FB lightwave group are far more productive and upbeat. What do you guys do all day anyways? Don't you have day jobs?

*runs for the exit

Heh. You can run, but you can't hide! Bwah! :devil:

Seriously, I do also get a feeling that doom-n-gloom folks who may ought have better things to do have on occasioned harshed my mellow here. My personal take on a good solution? Reclaim the forums. I'm busy as Hell right now, which is a good problem to have, and LW is the cornerstone of all that I've done to get me where I am. It still rocks, hard core, and if folks can't do what they want using it (and the killer plugins out there) then in my mind they simply lack a desire to make it work. I've used competing apps like 3DS and Maya for years, own them as well, and LW is what I keep coming back to. Like a well-worn and comfortable suit that might not appeal to the snobs but is always appropriate and their discomfiture merely adds to the fun.

So: post. Post your *** off. Share the fun stuff you're doing with LW, the lucrative stuff, the success stories. I've started carving out a little time each day to make moves toward keeping a positive perspective alive. I'm living and breathing evidence why there's no business case why LW doesn't work and work well. Folks jumping ship are doing so for personal (oftimes emotional) reasons and, while such decisions are totally within their rights, I mean to make sure the distinction remains crystal clear. :lightwave

Matt
07-27-2017, 12:05 PM
So many incorrect things in that video.

Spinland
07-27-2017, 12:09 PM
So many incorrect things in that video.

And there we have it from the proverbial horse's mouth. :beerchug:

prometheus
07-27-2017, 12:36 PM
I'm just saying that there were actually a lot of good points in that video and why everyone be so sensitive to some constructive criticism from a user that knows his stuff. Most of us love LW but let people talk and have their say, especially if they decided to move on it's good to hear why.

I do not have an issue of him criticising or the fact that he actually has good points..and valid in many cases, I see a problem with how he present it as the premise of "what killed lightwave" I think it would have been better to simply call things for what it is, not trying to lead people thinking that it has a status of something that isnīt true, so what he presents as good points..that doesnīt excuse the fact he is putting out a label that is false.

Spinland
07-27-2017, 12:59 PM
I do not have an issue of him criticising or the fact that he actually has good points..and valid in many cases, I see a problem with how he present it as the premise of "what killed lightwave" I think it would have been better to simply call things for what it is, not trying to lead people thinking that it has a status of something that isnīt true, so what he presents as good points..that doesnīt excuse the fact he is putting out a label that is false.

When all my verbiage and predicate logic abstruseness is parsed out, this is a very good summary of where I'm coming from. Call it "These are my observations about where NT is going wrong with the LW brand" and I'd take the offering much more sympathetically. Try to don a mantle of authority you have done nothing to earn instead of earning your cred through the quality of your content? Kiss of death; see ya.

jwiede
07-27-2017, 02:39 PM
I wouldn't say the video is far from truth also weird to see people personally attacking the uploader, that's his POV and you can either agree with it or not.

Community here is in bad shape, LWG did nothing to address the concerns and will do nothing, lack of communication and transparency with their customers is the number one sin.
If you guys don't see that, then I'm sorry but it only proves that there's something wrong with the community here.

Now, tell me, how come those blog posts are assuring you that LW "next" won't suffer from the same faith as CORE? Just like anyone else I want it to be released, don't care about timing - I want transparency, communication and being honest, you know as in proper relationship / customer - company.

One look at the balance of content in this thread amply demonstrates the "silence dissent with overwhelming personal attacks" mentality that's become so oppressively dominant in these forums the last few years. One post to a YouTube link essentially yielded over a DOZEN responses personally attacking the OP (and video poster). Claims this behavior is in any way a response to others' "negativism" are trivially disproven by the quantity and severity of the responses in this thread, amidst the complete absence of same from any "against" the "defenders".

Spinland
07-27-2017, 02:45 PM
One look at the balance of content in this thread amply demonstrates the "silence dissent with overwhelming personal attacks" mentality that's become so oppressively dominant in these forums the last few years. One post to a YouTube link essentially yielded over a DOZEN responses personally attacking the OP (and video poster). Claims this behavior is in any way a response to others' "negativism" are trivially disproven by the quantity and severity of the responses in this thread, amidst the complete absence of same from any "against" the "defenders".

What, in your estimation, constitutes an "attack" as opposed to a rightful repudiation of poorly-constructed assertions? I'm curious what you are actually trying to say here.

shrox
07-27-2017, 03:12 PM
One look at the balance of content in this thread amply demonstrates the "silence dissent with overwhelming personal attacks" mentality that's become so oppressively dominant in these forums the last few years. One post to a YouTube link essentially yielded over a DOZEN responses personally attacking the OP (and video poster). Claims this behavior is in any way a response to others' "negativism" are trivially disproven by the quantity and severity of the responses in this thread, amidst the complete absence of same from any "against" the "defenders".

Well, I get tired of posts that just repeat the same thing that's already been "disproven". No, Lightwave is not dead, yes, humans flew to and landed on the moon.

Wickedpup
07-27-2017, 03:13 PM
And what constitutes a "dead" software? It's not that people are using it with success...people are still using Softimage and are you saying it isn't dead? Lack of updates? Silo is generally considered dead...latest update a couple of months ago.
I would say....zero market penetration.....zero marketing.....zero updates....and a divided community that has started feeding on itself....it is starting to smell a lot of carcass here.

And Matt....being that proverbial horses mouth you should at least point out where he is incorrect. "LW isn't dead" is a given.

Spinland
07-27-2017, 03:23 PM
And what constitutes a "dead" software? It's not that people are using it with success...people are still using Softimage and are you saying it isn't dead? Lack of updates? Silo is generally considered dead...latest update a couple of months ago.
I would say....zero market penetration.....zero marketing.....zero updates....and a divided community that has started feeding on itself....it is starting to smell a lot of carcass here.

And Matt....being that proverbial horses mouth you should at least point out where he is incorrect. "LW isn't dead" is a given.

I love everything about this post.

Yes, let's try to move beyond the normative BS and nail down exactly what some of you folks would have us believe. I'm very interested in how you think—and only in the thinking part.

WTF are people moaning about? Most of what I see is that NT isn't conforming to their druthers. Do you have issues that go beyond that? Very interested in them, and in your solid grounding as to why they should matter to folks in the LW demographic.

shrox
07-27-2017, 03:36 PM
Are those dolphins over there? I hope so...they look so happy.

Spinland
07-27-2017, 03:41 PM
Are those dolphins over there? I hope so...they look so happy.

Love ya, man. :)

50one
07-27-2017, 03:59 PM
So far the easiest method of getting someone from LWG to respond is to set their door on fire.

Great post Wickedpup btw.

shrox
07-27-2017, 04:17 PM
So far the easiest method of getting someone from LWG to respond is to set their door on fire.

Great post Wickedpup btw.

It's a metal door. With metalosity cranked way up so it's very shiny.

gar26lw
07-27-2017, 04:24 PM
I hear you there. I too am working in 3d software other than lightwave and Maya is not perfect by any stretch. I'm actually missing some features LW has on offer. That said, people like you and I are straying from Newtek nonetheless and the community is dwindling and those left behind despondent. Only wish Newtek get their act together before we all jump ship.

Yeah I wish it would hurry the f up! It's time. As you say, jumping to the dark side out of nessesity :/

Other software has same issues. Read this http://community.foundry.com/discuss/topic/133597/re-modo-s-future

Haters gonna hate but only cos they have a reason to hate :)

Chris S. (Fez)
07-27-2017, 04:41 PM
I would say....zero market penetration.....zero marketing.....zero updates....and a divided community that has started feeding on itself....it is starting to smell a lot of carcass here.



Can't disagree but I sincerely believe Newtek and LW Group are passionate about Lightwave. Between the failure of Core and the delay of Next, there is little doubt that Newtek has invested a significant amount of time and money in attempting to secure Lightwave's future. Will it work out in the end? We'll find out soon enough. Lightwave needs revenue to survive, so I'm guessing it'll be released sooner rather than later.

Spinland
07-27-2017, 06:33 PM
It's a metal door. With metalosity cranked way up so it's very shiny.

137505

Snosrap
07-27-2017, 08:30 PM
Diversification is where it's at to survive as a company and fortunately Newtek has a very diverse product line that happens to include LW. Lightwave may not be a huge money maker (or possibly a no money maker) but as long as Tim Jenison is committed to it and wants to keep it funded during it's slow times LW is in good shape. NT is on a roll right now with its new Tricaster and NDI products. Also NDI is quickly becoming the no brainer standard for connecting video across a network. They've got some pretty smart brains over there. Think of this as the beginning of a new LW, not the end.

gar26lw
07-28-2017, 12:09 AM
NT is on a roll right now with its new Tricaster and NDI products. Also NDI is quickly becoming the no brainer standard for connecting video across a network. They've got some pretty smart brains over there. Think of this as the beginning of a new LW, not the end.

Great to hear.

prometheus
07-28-2017, 12:26 AM
And what constitutes a "dead" software? It's not that people are using it with success...people are still using Softimage and are you saying it isn't dead? Lack of updates? Silo is generally considered dead...latest update a couple of months ago.
I would say....zero market penetration.....zero marketing.....zero updates....and a divided community that has started feeding on itself....it is starting to smell a lot of carcass here.

And Matt....being that proverbial horses mouth you should at least point out where he is incorrect. "LW isn't dead" is a given.

In my eyes itīs pretty obvious, if a product is discontinued by the authors themself, it may be considered dead, though the term dead isnīt really that much appliable since folks are still using it and are still using others equally dead such as truespace, but it officially has no more development by the authors which still has the rights to the software.

There are also cases like a plugin never updated or never been able to hear anything about the status of the plug for years, such as the dynamite plugin for lightwave, or ogo taiki...these little programs still work in some cases, and hasnīt got an official discontinued statement from the authors, but when you hear absolutling nothing from the developers for more than 4-5 years, then I may start to question itīs status as alive.

In the lightwave case, there isnīt Even any discussion wether it is dead or not, only here in the minds of folks who doesnīt listen to what the developers say.

50one
07-28-2017, 01:12 AM
Dynamite plugin is dead for sure.
Lightwave - they pretend to be dead so maybe the vultures won;t take a bite.
Modo - the writings been on the wall since a lot of "old crew" left and other were moved to different dev team, I'm sure next year will be defining when it comes to its future or ...lack thereof.

This all makes me sad, not angry, just sad.

gar26lw
07-28-2017, 06:04 AM
So who's left on the modo team from newtek days?

Wickedpup
07-28-2017, 06:26 AM
In my eyes itīs pretty obvious, if a product is discontinued by the authors themself, it may be considered dead, though the term dead isnīt really that much appliable since folks are still using it and are still using others equally dead such as truespace, but it officially has no more development by the authors which still has the rights to the software.
Nah, that is too easy. A developer might refuse to discontinue a product just to continue getting revenue out of it. The aforementioned Silo and Nevercenter as a good example where I even suspect the last couple of updates are them putting in their least amount of effort to squeeze a buck out of it. That does not necessarily mean there is life......

50one
07-28-2017, 06:53 AM
So who's left on the modo team from newtek days?

You mean the trinity? None lol.

- - - Updated - - -


Nah, that is too easy. A developer might refuse to discontinue a product just to continue getting revenue out of it. The aforementioned Silo and Nevercenter as a good example where I even suspect the last couple of updates are them putting in their least amount of effort to squeeze a buck out of it. That does not necessarily mean there is life......

Exactly, they flip the bird at their userbase and moved onto mobile app.
that app wasn;t that profitable, so...why not just tease with some updates and maybe release a wee patch / keep selling it.

shrox
07-28-2017, 08:06 AM
Dynamite plugin is dead for sure.
Lightwave - they pretend to be dead so maybe the vultures won;t take a bite.
Modo - the writings been on the wall since a lot of "old crew" left and other were moved to different dev team, I'm sure next year will be defining when it comes to its future or ...lack thereof.

This all makes me sad, not angry, just sad.

So, befriend Lino and talk to him on Facebook.

SBowie
07-28-2017, 08:43 AM
I usually stay out of these, but will just add two remarks here.


A developer might refuse to discontinue a product just to continue getting revenue out of it.Though I will not say more, I will confirm that as of this moment 1) LightWave has not been discontinued, and 2) this is not 'just to continue to getting revenue out of it' without any relevant development.


So, befriend Lino and talk to him on Facebook.Bah, Facebook phooey. Nothing against those who use it, but I've not yet been forced to open an account, and hope to go my grave before I am (preferably not soon).

50one
07-28-2017, 08:47 AM
I don't have FB, removed my Linkedin acc and not giving a hoot about Social Media anymore.

Besides, is that means that he is allowed to talk about development in private?
If true, than what an amazing approach that would be lol

Wickedpup
07-28-2017, 09:10 AM
Though I will not say more, I will confirm that as of this moment 1) LightWave has not been discontinued, and 2) this is not 'just to continue to getting revenue out of it' without any relevant development.
Needless to say......everyone here knows that it has not been discontinued.

As for the holy trinity....the LinkedIn pages of Allen and Stuart still has them working at the Foundry AFAI can see......

Chris S. (Fez)
07-28-2017, 09:47 AM
Newsetter is due any day. Hopefully there will be a word or two on the upcoming release. Launch seems unlikely.

stiff paper
07-28-2017, 10:17 AM
Launch seems unlikely.
Based on what? A random reading of your stool this morning after breakfast?

jwiede
07-28-2017, 10:22 AM
You mean the trinity? None lol.

Can you actually provide a citation that neither Allen Hastings or Stuart Ferguson are still working on MODO?

raymondtrace
07-28-2017, 10:25 AM
In regard to Facebook and the growing LW activity there...

Facebook is not to be feared if you know what you're doing. It is an excellent RSS reader for topics of interest, like Lightwave. I've seen more interesting material on Facebook over the past month than what has appeared on this forum.

Lightwave is certainly not dead on Facebook.

The privacy concerns with Facebook are understandable. Facebook users are Facebook's product. However, there are easy ways to join the Facebook Lightwave conversation without exposing yourself.


Don't use your real name.
Use a secondary email address.
Don't post any status updates.
Don't befriend anyone.
Use Privacy Badger or a similar web browser privacy extension (even if you're not a Facebook account holder, Facebook still tracks you on millions of other web sites)



I've had a dummy Facebook account for over a year so that I can administer my company's page. Following the tips above has caused Facebook to blow its mind. Without any information about me, it is making hilarious random friend suggestions.

SBowie
07-28-2017, 10:48 AM
I'm sure these tips are helpful, I just don't want to be bothered with it. I suppose you can never say never, but I'd really rather not be forced to.

shrox
07-28-2017, 10:55 AM
I am not saying I have any secret or inside information, other than my complaints about the size of the materials preview window have been acknowledged.

Chris S. (Fez)
07-28-2017, 01:01 PM
Based on what? A random reading of your stool this morning after breakfast?

"Seems unlikely" is far from a forceful statement but...since you asked so nicely...my impression is based on:

1) My inbox is already filled with Siggraph news and show deals from my other primary software vendors...nothing from Newtek.

2) Maya, Nuke, Renderman, Substance and other releases have already been announced. If LW Group has something to announce, what are they waiting for? Given the dysfunction and angst of the community, not to mention the number of longtime users lost to other programs in the past year, strategically sitting on a release makes little sense IMO.

3) Vague comments from a 3rd Party developer who I assume is Beta testing.

No smoking gun, hence the "seems". Hopefully it'll be released along with assurances from LW Group that communication and development will be more consistent from here on out.

Shawn Farrell
07-28-2017, 01:24 PM
As far as I'm concerned LightWave can NEVER die, it's one of my most awesome tools in my warchest...Keep The Faith!. - Shawn Lee Farrell

Wickedpup
07-28-2017, 01:33 PM
Hopefully it'll be released along with assurances from LW Group that communication and development will be more consistent from here on out.
I think they have clearly shown how much promises and communication matters to them.....at this point I don't think they can make any assurances that are worth a damn....so don't expect any.

jasonwestmas
07-28-2017, 05:22 PM
"Seems unlikely" is far from a forceful statement but...since you asked so nicely...my impression is based on:

1) My inbox is already filled with Siggraph news and show deals from my other primary software vendors...nothing from Newtek.

2) Maya, Nuke, Renderman, Substance and other releases have already been announced. If LW Group has something to announce, what are they waiting for? Given the dysfunction and angst of the community, not to mention the number of longtime users lost to other programs in the past year, strategically sitting on a release makes little sense IMO.

3) Vague comments from a 3rd Party developer who I assume is Beta testing.

No smoking gun, hence the "seems". Hopefully it'll be released along with assurances from LW Group that communication and development will be more consistent from here on out.

Hasn' t it always been this way? :D I guess it's getting worse (or slightly better) so slowly that I don't see the difference.

jwiede
07-28-2017, 05:27 PM
I think they have clearly shown how much promises and communication matters to them.....at this point I don't think they can make any assurances that are worth a damn....so don't expect any.

Well put.

Marander
07-28-2017, 06:30 PM
I think they have clearly shown how much promises and communication matters to them.....at this point I don't think they can make any assurances that are worth a damn....so don't expect any.

100% agreed.

If they release during Siggraph, I understand they didn't communicate the last couple of weeks, however, the newest LW3DG youtube video is 7 months old (showing the not very convincing openVDB shading of an explosion).

They don't need to be there (though even Planetside has a booth this year and just released Terragen 4.1 by the way), but if they fail to release at Siggraph (again)...

edit ...or maybe they will offer a limited time last chance buy now or never final add a seat stay current LW 2015 promotion during Siggraph!

50one
07-29-2017, 09:05 AM
I'm just downloading it.

pinkmouse
07-29-2017, 09:45 AM
I'm just downloading it.

I don't think we need to know about your "personal" enthusiasms... :D

Chris S. (Fez)
07-29-2017, 10:26 AM
I don't think LW Group technically broke any promises. Maybe they did. I really don't know.

prometheus
07-29-2017, 07:37 PM
In regard to Facebook and the growing LW activity there...

Facebook is not to be feared if you know what you're doing. It is an excellent RSS reader for topics of interest, like Lightwave. I've seen more interesting material on Facebook over the past month than what has appeared on this forum.

Lightwave is certainly not dead on Facebook.

The privacy concerns with Facebook are understandable. Facebook users are Facebook's product. However, there are easy ways to join the Facebook Lightwave conversation without exposing yourself.


Don't use your real name.
Use a secondary email address.
Don't post any status updates.
Don't befriend anyone.
Use Privacy Badger or a similar web browser privacy extension (even if you're not a Facebook account holder, Facebook still tracks you on millions of other web sites)



I've had a dummy Facebook account for over a year so that I can administer my company's page. Following the tips above has caused Facebook to blow its mind. Without any information about me, it is making hilarious random friend

suggestions.


You know, what you suggested I knew about, I actually have a facebook account created not in my own name, just wanted to check a few things, but havenīt really used it for maybe a year.
That is not my main concern when it comes to using it for focused discussion, my concern is that it doesn do just that in the same manners as a discussion forum.

sgmusic
08-14-2017, 03:54 PM
@djwaterman
Yes - I agree

- - - Updated - - -


I'm just saying that there were actually a lot of good points in that video and why everyone be so sensitive to some constructive criticism from a user that knows his stuff. Most of us love LW but let people talk and have their say, especially if they decided to move on it's good to hear why.

...exactly

hrgiger
08-15-2017, 06:56 PM
Can you actually provide a citation that neither Allen Hastings or Stuart Ferguson are still working on MODO?

They're both still there. Yoshiaki is also there as well. Arnie Cachelin, Matt Craig, and Greg Duquesne are no longer working for Foundry. Either Allen or Stuart (maybe both) are working on the Nexus team which is still indirectly working on Modo.

gar26lw
08-16-2017, 02:48 AM
What's nexus team up to?

50one
08-16-2017, 03:44 AM
What's nexus team up to?

Drinking whisky and making the SDK even more complicated.

hrgiger
08-16-2017, 11:07 AM
A few things. But addressing underlying performance issues was one of the key things.

erikals
08-16-2017, 11:57 AM
ui performance.

hrgiger
08-16-2017, 12:09 PM
Well performance in general in all areas, advanced viewport, deformers, scene evaluation... the UI itself has other considerations which are being worked on.

gar26lw
08-16-2017, 03:48 PM
Eating a big sandwich?

hrgiger
08-19-2017, 12:12 PM
Still good things coming for Modo. There is for LW too, we just don't know what decade that will be yet.

dfidler
08-23-2017, 08:12 AM
I have to agree with the "Lightwave is dead" sentiment - maybe not for all sectors, but certainly in the hobby and movie markets. If you look at the list of projects that use LW, these days, it's dwindling. So is the user base. There used to be several forums dedicated to LW - they are now all either dead or dormant with a few long-time users carrying the torch (much like this one).

As someone that has been using LW since the mid-late 90s, I do think that LW is "dead" (or irrelevant), because of:


Dwindling user base / Exodus of talent
Resource websites are dying (there used to be dozens of plugin/tutorial sites)
Lack of product updates
Death of Core
Limited industry reach in the last 5 years
Lots more competition - LW isn't the only game in town anymore
Antiquated market strategy; No "free" version - 30d is not enough to build committed users


To the video's point, what made LW was it really was best-in-class/price point in the early days and it was being used in some highly publicized/popular productions (via Babylon 5, etc) which created a massive community of enthusiasts (and I remember seeing numerous admissions by community "stars" that admitted to getting their start on cracked versions). But that era is gone; CGI isn't a dream anymore, it's a career and the "free marketing/hype" is gone. What LW is left with is an aging US, a non-existent and outdated go-to-market strategy, a high price tag (in modern terms for enthusiasts) a lack of public resources and a community that is - quite frankly - aging and is well set in its ways/resistant to change.

To the videos point about the community - I haven't spent much time on this forum (I got my coolaid on other sites - all but one are gone now) but reading through this thread has certainly lent credence to his point. The general tone is caustic and the retorts to the "death" of LW basically boil down to "LW isn't officially discontinued" - but that's not what he claimed. Made even worse is the claim - by some - that are actually arguing against the video without actually watching it!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Are you f* kidding me!?!?!?!?! And then they launch into personal attacks against the guy? Why? Because he called our baby ugly? Seriously - you've literally just put the "demonstrandum" in the guy's QED. :P

As an aside, I recently took up woodworking as a hobby and tried modeling my stuff in LW[CAD] - I gave up because CAD in LW is painful (yes, I own LWCAD and have used it to model several redecoration projects over the years) so about 3 wks ago, I went out to find what else was out there and came across Sketchup. The first day I watched videos on youtube and by the end of that day I was knocking out my first semi-complex model. In the following 2 days I knocked out 2 more models - way faster than I ever could have done with LW (or LWCAD - and I've been a LW [hobby] user since the mid-late 90s). By the end of day 4, I was creating my cut/part lists and by the end of the week, I was creating blueprints and basic assembly diagrams which has left me more time to actually do woodworking, not fight with my tools in my design process.

The total barrier to entry was less than a week and Ģ0 (vs thousands of Ģ with LW + Plugins and my two decades of experience). Can I model a person in it Sketchup? No. But for CAD, it is a huge win for productivity and it's the kind of thing that most hobby users are going to do these days. And there's more competition out there... This is why LW is "dead/irrelevant".

But I love LW and now that I know that there are better tools out there, I came here to see if there were plugins, for LW, that could make me as productive as I am in Sketchup (for CAD). Nope. The best I could find is the plugin "Normal Move". But there's nothing for things like groups (kind of like instancing in modeler [not layout]), measure tool/protractor (the guides+snap features), dimensions (LWCADs are broken by comparison), Axes (change the location/direction of the axes), arc/circle centre references, edge midpoint inferences, "follow me" (which, admittedly, has precision problems). Where it's lacking is in the ability to fine tune meshes (which is where LW shines). And the plugin base is well supported.

My point is that the generation that grew up on LW is old (mostly 30 and 40 somethings) - there's little-to-no new blood coming in so the community is full of a bunch of set-in-their ways old men dry humping a product with virtually no market share or mind share, against products that beat it in so many ways because they all rewrote (total rewrites) their products 5-10 years ago.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to turn LW into a CAD tool or anything but I would like to be able to do some simple operations that I can do in a free CAD tool that is about as basic as you can get.

Maybe "Next" will be the "Core" that never was. Maybe NT will release a "limited free" version to grow the community (and create a licensing model for plugins that limits what the free version can do). Maybe they will make it easier to use; maybe they will update the UI and expand its functionality to appeal to more than its current niche market. Maybe they will merge modeler/layout (lots of people seem to like the idea - I hate it). And maybe NT can resuscitate the enthusiasm for LW in the market, thereby breathing new life into the market. Maybe NT will create a new product and leave LW to wither on the vine.

But whatever they do, it's going to take a lot more than a 6mo old blog post about new Cel Shaders (with no mention of "Next", anywhere).

So yeah, as things stand right now... LW, and the community that used to make it a living thing, lacks a heart beat.

erikals
08-23-2017, 08:31 AM
instead of being a "Hell-Yeah" video it turned out to a video with his failed points and a whining guy.

it's like i said, couldn't he at least make a "proper" video about what's wrong with LightWave?

he basically got "nothing" right.
that itself deserves applause.

prometheus
08-23-2017, 09:30 AM
I have to agree with the "Lightwave is dead" sentiment
Maybe "Next" will be the "Core" that never was. ).

.


this doesnīt compute :) not for me tiny cells anyway..
how can you agree to Lightwave being dead...just a feeling or what? whey you in the final sentence hope for it to be resurrected, nothing has ever resurrected from a dead state.

Maybe the essence of what youré trying to say is just basicly frustrating whining over the situation and how it has declined, rather than assert true facts that lightwave will never show up again nor it has no effect on the industry whatsoever at the current date?? I believe that is the case no...but why not call things to their true names?

To me any statements of lightwave being dead sounds just ridicilous and unbalanced.

If someone hasnīt noticed, it will show up according to the developers and itīs a major overhaul..I just donīt get why people make a hen out of a feather, or put the label dead on to something that canīt be described as dead at all ..if you analyze the sitation soberly.

If anyone would like to say, it has declined, and it isnīt anywhere near what it was...sure, that may be a true description as it stands now...but then you have to weigh in the development and where it is planned to go, meanwhile ..surely people are doing work with it, hobbiest, as well as payed artists ..schools and studios, or am I wrong?

jwiede
08-23-2017, 10:59 AM
he basically got "nothing" right.
that itself deserves applause.

So you don't believe anything he said about Lightwave's current market base situation is accurate?

dfidler
08-23-2017, 12:44 PM
this doesnīt compute :) not for me tiny cells anyway.. how can you agree to Lightwave being dead...

I have quite clearly stated my reasons - they were the bullet points from my post. If you want to turn this into a debate, then I suggest that you either tell the audience why those factors don't point to the "death" LW, or that you refute each one of them with real hard data.

Without real, hard data, all of this is just opinion anyway. So why don't you pick each of those bullet points and argue the ones that you disagree with.


just a feeling or what?

Everyone on "my" side of this fence has already conceded that NT have NOT issued a statement that LW is EOL and that it is not what the video was saying.


whey you in the final sentence hope for it to be resurrected,

Because I do. I hope that LW recovers from the spiraling decline that it is in. If it doesn't, the product will be EOL'd or will be relegated to niche work which will limit career opportunities for new artists, which would only further result in the reduction of the available pool of talent.


nothing has ever resurrected from a dead state.

Ignoring the obvious biblical references, this is actually demonstrably false. Google: "survived clinical death".


Maybe the essence of what youré trying to say is just basicly [inflamatory language removed] it has declined

Yes, exactly, it has declined... significantly (again alluding to all of the bullet points I mentioned in my last post). And there are now better options for some use cases out there for the new generation to learn on and grow their careers with - talent is leaving the platform/LW ecosystem faster than it is attracting new talent. I have no idea what NT's balance sheet looks like, or how LW revenues factor into their income statement.


rather than assert true facts that lightwave will never show up again

Which is not what is happening. Only one person has said that (that I'm aware of) and that person cites some "insider information" that none of the rest of us are privy to. Ergo, without good cause to believe that person, I have discarded it their statements.

But then again, Core was going to be awesome too... but then s*** happened.


nor it has no effect on the industry whatsoever at the current date?? I believe that is the case

Good.


no... but why not call things to their true names?

Methaphor and Similar, like sarcasm, are linguistic devices to convey contextual and informal meaning? THey sometimes lead to misundedrstandings [like this] but to use them is human nature, where as adhering to strict semantic linguistic constructions is a skill that comes training that most people don't have - it takes years of training (though, ironically, people seem to exhibit that skill - badly - when they are losing an argument on the internet :) ).


To me any statements of lightwave being dead sounds just ridicilous and unbalanced.

Based on a literal definition or the aforementioned "dead = discontinued", then I agree with you. But, again, that is not what "we" are saying.


If someone hasnīt noticed, it will show up according to the developers and itīs a major overhaul..

Again, I have not argued with that. They have said they are working on it and I'm taking them at their word. It might even be awesome when it comes out. But a geat product doesn't ensure commercial success and wide spread adoption. If you've studied anything about business you already know that.


I just donīt get why people make a hen out of a feather, or put the label dead on to something that canīt be described as dead at all ..if you analyze the sitation soberly.

I have analyzed it soberly. Declining user base, declining resources available on the internet, declining number of positions to use it... back to my bullet points from my previous post. LW usage is trending down and it has been for years. Yes there are still people using it - even if it does go EOL, I will use it until it no longer runs on my computers. But that won't still mean that it hasn't been disocntinued then either.

To use another metaphor... if LW were a Red Giant (https://www.space.com/22471-red-giant-stars.html) it would currrently be in the phase where it has shed it's outer shell and the product will - without significant enhancements and an improved market relations strategy, become a "white dwarf" (not literally, remember that this is a metaphor)... it will be out there for a long long long time but as far as stars go, it will be much smaller than all of the younger stars around it. In stellar terms, it will remain in this "dead" state


If anyone would like to say, it has declined, and it isnīt anywhere near what it was...sure, that may be a true description as it stands now...

And that's exactly what "we" are saying.


but then you have to weigh in the development and where it is planned to go,

No, I don't, because I don't know where it is planned to go. I can't find any roadmap for "Next", NT's blog is devoid of any info on it and any mention of Next and what it will offer is virtually non-existent. All I can find is statements that "Next will be awesome". Admittedly, I'm out of touch with "Next" but if I have to hunt for news of it, then NT is doing a sh** marketing job.

No, right now all I have is NT saying, "it will be awesome!". Which is exactly what the marketing department of every other company says about their products. It's what NT said about Core.

So, in the absence of a roadmap or features list, or any marketing material at all, and the fact that LW usage has been on the decline for about a decade, I can't weigh in what they are doing with LW in the future. What makes you think that what they are doing is even going to be any good? What makes you think that NT can win back the hearts and minds of the people that have left or what makes you think they will be able to position themselves in front of lots of potential new artists, when current (and recent) evidence suggests that NT has never been good at marketing?

They are doing *something* and for the time being, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt...

But as it stands now, LW is in the decline and "more of the same" strategies by NT isn't going to change the downward trend that LW is on.


meanwhile ..surely people are doing work with it, hobbiest, as well as payed artists ..schools and studios, or am I wrong?

No, you are not wrong. Back to the "White Dwarf" metaphor.

erikals
08-23-2017, 01:33 PM
he basically got "nothing" right.
that itself deserves applause.


So you don't believe anything he said about Lightwave's current market base situation is accurate?

see the blue print.

erikals
08-23-2017, 01:52 PM
LightWave decline?

sure, no one is questioning that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LightWave_3D#Movies_that_LightWave_was_used_in

Marander
08-23-2017, 03:53 PM
I don't find it fair to call it dead. 2015 is still a good package for the price. Irrelevant for many maybe but not dead.

LWNext is a big step I'm sure. I believe the new features are there.

I guess there are few blockers that prevent the release or the content (materials, objects, scenes etc.) is not yet ready.

Nevertheless disappointing communication and management.

RonB
08-23-2017, 07:05 PM
Yes, I saw the video and feel the guy has a lot of valid points.
I've used LW since 1988 and still use it, I think the best iteration was 8.5.
Been using Maxwell for my renderer since it came out. It forced a reality check for me when Next Limit decided not to issue a plugin for LW.
I decided to re-evaluate my toolset. I've tried Modo but just can't seem to get into it. Always hated Max and the dicks at Autodesk.
I did demos and multi media seminars at the A-Desk main office many times and hearing how the managers and coders referred with disdain to their user base really put me off.
So I gave C4D a shot and was pleasantly surprised. One of the positives is the access to Arnold and many more good plugins, besides the very powerful off the shelf toolset the program has.

One of the grips I've always had with LW is the fact it gives the term "glacially slow" a whole new meaning when trying to model or deal with Layout with high res models and scenes.
Yes, as much as I am used to the program it's definitely long in the tooth and I'm transitioning away from LW.

Ciao!

c.1
08-23-2017, 10:23 PM
At this point, I am more curious than anything else as to what LWNext will actually look like.
Sometimes I feel we are heading down the path of Truespace....(Reg $695.....buy now for $89) How many of us started here? Come on admit it...........
and other times I feel like we are waiting for something truly great....I guess only time will tell.
Personally I have soooo much stuff to get caught up on Vue, Substance Painter, bass, guitar, Boss GT-1, 3DCoat.....etc......I am actually embracing the lag in LW updates (sure I get the frustration) but you can't change what is out of your control so I just roll with it.......just my 2 cents.
Now if I can just get that loose groove of Whole Lotta Love (live) on bass where JPJ and Jimmy are just jammimg........

Marander
08-24-2017, 03:56 AM
So I gave C4D a shot and was pleasantly surprised. One of the positives is the access to Arnold and many more good plugins, besides the very powerful off the shelf toolset the program has.

Yes I did the same and I'm very happy. Some of the plugins available are amazing. The more you work with C4D the more you start to see how great it is designed in almost every aspect.

Marander
08-24-2017, 04:03 AM
...
Yes, exactly, it has declined... significantly (again alluding to all of the bullet points I mentioned in my last post). And there are now better options for some use cases out there for the new generation to learn on and grow their careers with - talent is leaving the platform/LW ecosystem faster than it is attracting new talent. I have no idea what NT's balance sheet looks like, or how LW revenues factor into their income statement.
...


Absolutely agree.

I'm sure LWNext new features are there and it will be released eventually... but too late for me (except it turns out to be so amazing that I can't resist and adds features my other apps don't cover).

The video has some true points and some false information (the guy couldn't even name SGI correctly), nevertheless I would not call it dead.

Chris S. (Fez)
08-24-2017, 05:41 AM
I believe in Rob and LW Group. I believe that Lightwave, thanks in no small part to the greed of Autodesk, can make a comeback.

A fast stable Next can revitalize the community and the viability of the 3rd Party market. Next might not be a total rewrite but it is nonetheless a huge, highly ambituous undertaking.

I think Newtek should consider contracting the Silo team to integrate their code and tools directly into Layout. Talk to them Rob. If it seems like a good fit then make them an offer. The worst they can say is no thanks.

50one
08-24-2017, 06:03 AM
They didn't talk to anyone in the past. Besides Silo guys don't deserve any attention.

Chris S. (Fez)
08-24-2017, 06:26 AM
They didn't talk to anyone in the past. Besides Silo guys don't deserve any attention.

In terms of fundamental modeling tools I think the Silo toolset is fast, straightforward and already organized and consolidated. If Lw Group is not going to hire a Modeler developer then they need to outsource it ASAP. I suspect the Silo developers would not mind some financial stability and a year long contract if not a buyout.

But I don't know much about those guys, just have appreciated Silo in the past and the tidiness of the toolset. They are developing again http://cgpress.org/archives/silo-2-5-released-marking-a-return-to-active-development.html so I figured it couldn't hurt to at least talk to them. Maybe Layout could be Modeler by Next 2.0 instead of 4.0.

In any case, Newtek needs to at long last fill this position: https://www.lightwave3d.com/careers/

raymondtrace
08-24-2017, 07:01 AM
...In any case, Newtek needs to at long last fill this position: https://www.lightwave3d.com/careers/

How old is this? I missed it. I haven't been seriously following the LWNext topic because I have so many better things to do...waiting to be surprised. However, if Newtek is showing their hand, Qt toolkit and "development and debugging skills on Windows, OSX and Linux" seems like a step in the right direction.

Chris S. (Fez)
08-24-2017, 07:33 AM
How old is this?

Been there for years now, I believe.

prometheus
08-24-2017, 09:51 AM
dfidler

I will not answer all of your replies...but here we go, initial comment from me, in orange, yours in bluegreen, and my reply in white

"nothing has ever resurrected from a dead state."

"Ignoring the obvious biblical references, this is actually demonstrably false. Google: "survived clinical death".

I assumed you refered to dead as no return, as biological death, and not specificly clinical death, if you had I could have been more easy on you...or do you think itīs reasonable that anyone should understand you could have ment two kinds of deaths...clinical or biological?
I would say you are wrong as well..since I refered to the biological death term, not the clinical with some kind of option of reviving the software..that is why I think itīs more fair and balanced to call things to their right names...as you clearly seen in my response, it only adds to misunderstanding in debates.

"To me any statements of lightwave being dead sounds just ridicilous and unbalanced."

"Based on a literal definition or the aforementioned "dead = discontinued", then I agree with you. But, again, that is not what "we" are saying."
REad above...what you say is simply not balanced and just confuses a debate, as well as adding to the fuel that it may actually have been discontinued, you can turn and twist the term death as much as you like to fit the essence in what you ment, it still is screwed up in my opinion to talk about it that way...we could even add religious point of views in to it, then we would be in a greater mess in trying to define the class of what status Lightwave has right now, apart from the two previous different versions of death, maybe we should put up a poll on what people refer mostly to as "dead" when we use that term.


"If someone hasnīt noticed, it will show up according to the developers and itīs a major overhaul.."
"Again, I have not argued with that. They have said they are working on it and I'm taking them at their word. It might even be awesome when it comes out. But a geat product doesn't ensure commercial success and wide spread adoption. If you've studied anything about business you already know that."

Again? ...that was a statement for anyone thinking lightwave is discountinued as equal to dead (biological for gods sake), and me knowing about business and inclining with the rest doesnīt matter, that wasnīt the point..it was to clarify the status, not arguing about commercial success


"I just donīt get why people make a hen out of a feather, or put the label dead on to something that canīt be described as dead at all ..if you analyze the sitation soberly."

"I have analyzed it soberly. Declining user base, declining resources available on the internet, declining number of positions to use it... back to my bullet points from my previous post. LW usage is trending down and it has been for years. Yes there are still people using it - even if it does go EOL, I will use it until it no longer runs on my computers. But that won't still mean that it hasn't been disocntinued then either."

"To use another metaphor... if LW were a Red Giant it would currrently be in the phase where it has shed it's outer shell and the product will - without significant enhancements and an improved market relations strategy, become a "white dwarf" (not literally, remember that this is a metaphor)... it will be out there for a long long long time but as far as stars go, it will be much smaller than all of the younger stars around it. In stellar terms, it will remain in this "dead" state"

Again...when I refer to soberly, it was about semantics regarding dead or not dead, not your analyze of the decline of lightwave.


"If anyone would like to say, it has declined, and it isnīt anywhere near what it was...sure, that may be a true description as it stands now..."
"And that's exactly what "we" are saying."

I hope you realise that was a hint that I understood you felt that way and were saying that, so your description has some legitimate points, you really didnīt have to confirm me confirming you on that:D
The rest of your replies need no further replies from me, since I have no objections on your point of view for that.

beverins
08-25-2017, 12:59 PM
Three threads on this silly video. LOL

I have never (and still don't) understand the outright HATE this program engenders in some people. They act like jilted lovers or something.

Anyway, no it no longer has the name-brand recognition that it used to. That's a given. However, if you want to talk about DEAD software, look no further than Softimage. That *IS* unequivocally DEAD. It is no longer sold nor supported by the manufacturer. Are some productions still being made with Softimage? YES. Is it still DEAD? YES.

Lightwave is not *DEAD* simply by the merits that it is still sold and supported by the manufacturer. That's really all the argument boils down to. Anything else is just complaining, sour grapes, etc.

I still use the program and will buy the next one whenever it comes out.... is Lightwave The Best There Is? Of course not. I'm lucky to be in a position that I can use pretty much all the 3D Software there is. THEY ALL SUCK in some way or another.

prometheus
08-26-2017, 08:12 AM
Lightwave is not *DEAD* simply by the merits that it is still sold and supported by the manufacturer. That's really all the argument boils down to. Anything else is just complaining, sour grapes

That is a decent sober classification..In my opinion.

hrgiger
08-27-2017, 02:21 PM
XSI may not be supported but people will be using it for years to come and still a lot more capable than something like Modo or Lightwave. And with ICE you have the power to build your own new tools or features so I guess it really depends on what your idea of dead is.

prometheus
08-27-2017, 02:31 PM
XSI may not be supported but people will be using it for years to come and still a lot more capable than something like Modo or Lightwave. And with ICE you have the power to build your own new tools or features so I guess it really depends on what your idea of dead is.

a product being developed and supported? reminds me, I got a zombie software called truespace somewhere, maybye I should kick on it until it wakes up :)

Iīm curious...what status does softimage have? is it possible to purchase the rights and start developing it again, under a new name perhaps? not that I am the one to do it though...or is it a sacred coffin?

erikals
08-27-2017, 05:26 PM
is it possible to purchase the rights and start developing it again, under a new name perhaps?
nope. AutoDesk owns the rights and use parts of the code in Maya.
one could buy part of the code, but that's extremely unlikely.

XSI is gone, can't even get a used copy. (yep i tried)
many users of XSI went elsewhere, some still use XSI, for a limited time.

i'm sure XSI still will be worth it for many for 10+ years.

there are good options though... Maya, Modo, Houdini, Houdini Indie, Blender, C4D.

personally i liked XSi better than Maya,... but alas.
Houdini Indie +LW/Modo/Blender is a also good combo.

https://vimeopro.com/pooby/ice
https://vimeo.com/pooby

hrgiger
08-27-2017, 06:20 PM
Yeah if you don't own XSI now, you never will. I know a few guys who still use XSI and have no plans to stop using it anytime soon. But they're the kind of eggheads who build their own tools.

hrgiger
08-27-2017, 06:22 PM
a product being developed and supported?

Are you counting LightWave in that? Is it still being developed? Do we have any idea when and if the new version will come out? And hasn't it been 3 years almost now since we've gotten a bug fix. That doesn't sound very well supported to me.

jwiede
08-27-2017, 07:44 PM
Lightwave is not *DEAD* simply by the merits that it is still sold and supported by the manufacturer.

Well, it's sold anyway. "Supported" is a bit of a stretch, given the absence of bug fixes/updates for over two years.

Hail
08-28-2017, 05:45 AM
Isn't it a known fact that the next version of lightwave is still under development? Can we say the same about xsi?

raymondtrace
08-28-2017, 06:25 AM
I know very little about XSI's licensing protection but as more software leans toward activations and subsciption models, it will be more difficult for users to continue to utilize programs. In that sense, these programs can certainly die. (unless you're like Adobe and just give away CS2)

gar26lw
08-28-2017, 06:51 AM
What's this about cs2?

50one
08-28-2017, 06:59 AM
It was given for free..but only to lic. Holders but who will check that anyway...

erikals
08-28-2017, 08:20 AM
expected LightWave Next release date was 3 months in mid-February, so > June

however like my former boss always said, make it 3 time more... 3x3=9

so again, according to that estimate we will see LightWave Next during Christmas time.

:santa:

Marander
08-28-2017, 08:28 AM
so again, according to that estimate we will see LightWave Next during Christmas time.

:santa:

You said the same already a year ago.

However they lost all credibility already long before.

erikals
08-28-2017, 08:38 AM
no, that was a guess.

the 3x3 is based on an estimate given by NT.

Marander
08-28-2017, 09:27 AM
no, that was a guess.

the 3x3 is based on an estimate given by NT.

LOL 3x3, yeah right.

Never heard of that with 20+ years experience in significant multinational projects for some of the globally largest enterprises as my clients.

erikals
08-28-2017, 09:31 AM
if the 3x3 wasn't true we'd be living in the year 3000 by now.

hrgiger
08-28-2017, 10:28 AM
Lino gave the 3 month estimate, he wasnt speaking on behalf of lw3dg, it was just his best guess based on what he knew at the time. So there is no official estimate of when lw next will be out . im guessing its not up to them at this point, especially since Andrew Cross had to step in and tell people theyre still working on it. The last time someone from NT management had to step in was when CORE was being cancelled. Sounds pretty bad to me.

erikals
08-28-2017, 11:02 AM
it is bad/sad.

however, talking about how bad it is over and over again won't help. (obviously)

Chris S. (Fez)
08-30-2017, 08:04 AM
it is bad/sad.

however, talking about how bad it is over and over again won't help. (obviously)

Vicious little circle we have here. Maybe we'll get a newsletter this month.

Rob has LW Group listed on his LinkedIn, so hopefully he's still piloting the ship. No time to panic. They've come too far and invested too much not to stay the course.

Check out the glowing comments on Corona, a purely CPU renderer really similar to Next:

http://cgpress.org/archives/chaos-group-to-acquire-corona.html

andypete
09-01-2017, 09:47 AM
The elephant in the room is this:

NewTek’s focus is clearly stated at the top of their website: ’NewTek | Software Driven Video Production Technology’

But if it were LightWave…

A product model built on specification and process wins. At least for work that is vast, complex and collaborative.

I have yet to do anything more sophisticated in any other application (with polygons and rendering) than the things we’ve done in LightWave. The reason is the Lightwave Scene File. I can still hand a simulation engineer a few pages of the LWS file specification and have a renderable scene consisting of thousands of parts and keyframes. Within a day or so. They don’t need the API. They don’t need to touch LightWave.

LightWave can still be viable. I wouldn’t create a huge unified environment for several reasons. Here are a few:

Generation of polygons often occurs in the end stages of content creation.
Rendering isn’t important for web or realtime deployment.
Interactivity often replaces linear animation.

The baseline for comparison shouldn’t be Modo or the like. I’d look to other lightweight applications for inspiration:

MoI: Incorporate basic CAD capability. And it’s snapping. And construction lines.
Silo: for modeling polygons, I’ll fire it up before modo.
Sketchfab or PlayCanvas: online 3D and VR content is real.
Revit: BIM is huge. I’ll remodel objects before simplifying most complex CAD assemblies.
Autodesk A360: It is the way to manage collaboration and integration.

I work on stadiums, airports, vehicles and ships. Conceptually, LightWave could be the container to integrate tail-end polygon-based toolsets and processes, regardless of their origin.

Mats Bjorklund
09-17-2017, 06:09 PM
It is quite possible the guy in the video is paid by Autodesk. I mean, with Lightwave out of the picture, Autodesk can do pretty much whatever they want. Which they already are in fact. I am referring to the extortionate move to subscription. Now I have been a Lightwave user for many years, and thank my lucky star I still am! I did start to move over to Maya a few years ago, as admittedly there are many things Maya is better at, like physics simulation etc. But when there is a real rush job, I have often chosen to do it in Lightwave if possible. Far less of a risk to bog down with endless tweaks. Being a freelancer every minute counts. And every dollar! As for Maya, I have been reasonably OK with the maintenance deal (perpetual licence). But subscription, at more than twice the cost, would simply not be justifiable. And now that they will over the next few years increase the coast of maintenance as well, there will be a time when I can't go on with that either. So, it is crucial for me that Lightwave survives! Now I can see a GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY for NewTek here. If you can raise the bar a bit and revitalize Lightwave, and keep it on a non-subscription basis, you WILL regain the status as a major player and recover a significant share of the market. I am sure there is a multitude of developers that feel the same!

Snosrap
09-17-2017, 08:21 PM
It is quite possible the guy in the video is paid by Autodesk. I mean, with Lightwave out of the picture, Autodesk can do pretty much whatever they want.

I am almost sure the top dogs at Autodesk say "Lightwave what?" And as you say - they already are doing what ever they want. Autodesk wouldn't pay anybody to make a lame video to squash their competition - they would just buy the competition. AFAIK LW hasn't been bought by Autodesk yet so I guess it doesn't consider them competition. :)

erikals
09-17-2017, 10:26 PM
video being paid by AutoDesk? no, i doubt that.

however, you can't trust AutoDesk. they said that they had no plans to shut down Softimage. just months later, guess what they did... Yep, they shut it down.

https://i.imgur.com/IGCuZNa.png


relived i got LightWave / Blender to work with instead of AutoCash.

Marander
09-17-2017, 11:58 PM
It is quite possible the guy in the video is paid by Autodesk. I mean, with Lightwave out of the picture, Autodesk can do pretty much whatever they want.

Joke of the century, do you really believe anyone at Autodesk cares about LW? Do you honestly think LW is any competition for AD (or any other major 3D company / package for that matter)? I don't think anyone there even knows LightWhat still exists. Some users here really live under a rock.

erikals
09-18-2017, 12:11 AM
Some users here really live under a rock.
that's not possible, the person would starve to death, or possibly get crunched. stop the nonsense.

RonB
09-25-2017, 01:46 PM
There is no point to all this speculation about LW anymore. I used it from 5.6 on but switched over to C4D awhile ago.
LW has been left behind with little chance of ever being relevant.
Third party renders hardly consider it relevant...Maxwell, Arnold, Keyshot to name a few, do not make plugins for it.
When Next Limit dropped support I decided it was time to leave myself.
Amazed after living in the drought of LW to step into the resources offered by off the shelf C4D.
To say nothing of the plethora of plugins. You all ought to consider it too.

erikals
09-26-2017, 12:53 AM
none deny that LightWave needs a HUGE update.

however it's still quite fast in Some workflow scenarios.

betting all your cash on the LightWave horse is a gamble.

C4D however has a completely different workflow. Not quite sure why you chose C4D, and not Maya/Max/Blender/Modo/Houdini

i read about one of the C4D "icons" leaving C4D because of lack of development. all apps have their limitations.

Marander
09-26-2017, 01:40 AM
none deny that LightWave needs a HUGE update.

however it's still quite fast in Some scenarios.

betting all your cash on the LightWave horse is a gamble.

C4D however has a completely different workflow. Not quite sure why you chose C4D, and not Maya/Max/Blender/Modo/Houdini

i read about one of the C4D "icons" leaving C4D because of lack of development. all apps have their limitations.

Where does C4D have a completely different workflow? Yes it offers non-destructive / parametric / realtime workflow but you don't need to use it. Because you might press one key to make something editable? HAVE YOU EVER WORKED WITH IT?

For me: Maya/Max/Modo/Houdini, they all need online activation and lack stability compared to C4D. Blender due to it's UI. I tried all of them to some extend. Houdini Indie is the only one I will consider for the future, due to it's innovation, price and neat integration in C4D.

An "icon" leaving C4D... if you mean Kiwi3D, that was long ago and mostly because of Bodypaint and UV Mapping. And as far as I remember he is a hobbyist that did tutorials, I would hardly call him an icon. The C4D community is huge and very active.

By the way, UV mapping (which is currently redesigned by MAXON); for that I use a plugin (Seamilar) that makes it work almost the same as 3D-Coat but without leaving the application. Particles in the base C4D package are a bit weak (but still way ahead of LW anyway), but with X-Particles you can get the probably best, most robust and easiest particle simulation in the market.

Yes every package has some limitations, but in the case of C4D they are really minor and being worked on, but the benefits are huge. Compared to LW it's day and night. Take any tool in LW and you'll most likely find that it's better solved in C4D.

And you know what? In about 11 month and one week I will install the next new version. There are tons new blogs and forum posts, quality tutorials, quick tips and content every day. Additionally the industry events (NAB, Siggraph, HalfRes, IBC etc.) provide days of recorded, professional C4D presentations of real-life projects.

erikals
09-26-2017, 02:43 AM
i write "C4D" and you go on a rampage.

cool. go on, can't wait to hear your next opinion.

this time, please make it twice as long.


Take any tool in LW and you'll most likely find that it's better solved in C4D.
quote of the year.

gar26lw
09-26-2017, 03:14 AM
obviously any tool will be worse with lw :)

erikals
09-26-2017, 03:26 AM
yep, time to pack our bags. Leavin' LightWave, as of this minute. Adios everyone, it was fun, see you at the C4D forums.

i can hardly wait to use all the perfect C4D tools. i'm so happy i could cry.

Marander
09-26-2017, 03:35 AM
i can hardly wait to use all the perfect C4D tools. i'm so happy i could cry.

If you would have experience in both packages you actually would.

Marander
09-26-2017, 03:52 AM
Btw, LW news of today.

http://cgpress.org/archives/lwcad-lite-5-25-released.html

But actually doesn't include LW.

Chris S. (Fez)
09-26-2017, 06:44 AM
I totally understand feeling compelled to move on but coming back here and explicitly encourging others to join the defection is probably inappropriate IMO.

This is the forum of a relatively small, private but recently surging company. Yes, there is a frustrating delay and communication freeze but this hopefully means Newtek is taking the time and money to make Next the best it can be. Lightwave is no longer the flagship. Tricaster's success allows Newtek the luxury of taking their time. Autodesk and C4D are costly and could always use more competition.

Look around the web. Angry, alienated Autodesk maintenance customers abound. The delay is unfortunate but, if Next is released at the end of this year...coinciding with the many expiring maintenance contracts...the timing might turn out pretty good.

unstable
09-26-2017, 08:11 AM
You all sound like that person at work that complains how terrible it is working for the company, but they never actually try to leave. You should be thankful LightWave gives you something to complain about. It’s providing you an outlet that might otherwise impact your work or relationships.

ianr
09-26-2017, 08:54 AM
Btw, LW news of today.

http://cgpress.org/archives/lwcad-lite-5-25-released.html

But actually doesn't include LW.


Viktor has sent an explanation that LightWave WILL GET a REV5.3

near Xmas for itself .Then after, all apps will be updated at the same

time in the future (2018 onwards).

It's on Lightwiki Facebook so we are still LWCADDING out there.

- - - Updated - - -



yep, time to pack our bags. Leavin' LightWave, as of this minute. Adios everyone, it was fun, see you at the C4D forums.

i can hardly wait to use all the perfect C4D tools. i'm so happy i could cry.



Are you sell your App & Plug-ins Then?

In the Sales Forum?

djwaterman
09-26-2017, 10:19 AM
He was being sarcastic.

erikals
09-26-2017, 11:23 AM
of course i was, i never cry!

however, yeah, if someone got that wrong, that was Sarcasm with a Big "S" indeed.

prometheus
09-27-2017, 03:51 AM
Btw, LW news of today.

http://cgpress.org/archives/lwcad-lite-5-25-released.html

But actually doesn't include LW.

Better to name it for what it is shall we:D Itīs not LW news, itīs LWCAD news.:hey: I am already confused at my age of soon 53.

Marander
09-27-2017, 05:01 AM
Better to name it for what it is shall we:D Itīs not LW news, itīs LWCAD news.:hey: I am already confused at my age of soon 53.

Haha yes sorry Prom. It was a bit a tease. And sorry also for my various LW rants :)

ianr
09-28-2017, 11:17 AM
http://www.lwcad.com/forum/index.php?u=%2Ftopic%2F60%2Flwcad-lightwave-heads-up

M_Kappenberg
12-01-2017, 06:55 PM
If, and really if "LightWave is dead"
this is maybe another moment to held in.

Silence for a minute, please.

No regressions, only big thanks for all great moments with you.

(my first and maybe last post here, LW user since 4.x)

prometheus
12-02-2017, 01:26 PM
If, and really if "LightWave is dead"
this is maybe another moment to held in.

Silence for a minute, please.

No regressions, only big thanks for all great moments with you.

(my first and maybe last post here, LW user since 4.x)

Donīt you feel a bit more obliged to post at least one post more ..just to catch up for all the years of lacking posts...since you have been using Lightwave all these years..:D

I could really not care about lightwave being dead or not at the moment....though I am quite convinced it will show up again sooner or later when they sorted things out..

Of topic but related to death and I just felt to vent it a bit..my father however is dead, He just passed away this morning at the age of 91 years and a couple of months, he broke his shoulder blade mysticly, went to hospital..but got back home yesterday, he was still alive this morning at 7 a clock in the morning, when nurses checked him..and he looked at them, but 20 minutes later he was gone, just hoping he sort off fell asleep and did not have any pain his last moment.

SBowie
12-02-2017, 01:48 PM
my father however is dead, He just passed away this morning at the age of 91 years and a couple of months ...I'm truly saddened to hear of your loss; please accept sincere condolences on behalf of all at NewTek.

Paul_Boland
12-02-2017, 02:11 PM
Of topic but related to death and I just felt to vent it a bit..my father however is dead, He just passed away this morning at the age of 91 years and a couple of months, he broke his shoulder blade mysticly, went to hospital..but got back home yesterday, he was still alive this morning at 7 a clock in the morning, when nurses checked him..and he looked at them, but 20 minutes later he was gone, just hoping he sort off fell asleep and did not have any pain his last moment.

Sorry to hear that. Keep smiling, keep well, that is what he would want...

erikals
12-02-2017, 02:44 PM
I'm terribly sorry for your loss Michael.

The very best wishes in this difficult time.

Paul Boland gives good advice.
Look forward, also.

kadri
12-02-2017, 03:58 PM
...

Of topic but related to death and I just felt to vent it a bit..my father however is dead, He just passed away this morning at the age of 91 years and a couple of months, he broke his shoulder blade mysticly, went to hospital..but got back home yesterday, he was still alive this morning at 7 a clock in the morning, when nurses checked him..and he looked at them, but 20 minutes later he was gone, just hoping he sort off fell asleep and did not have any pain his last moment.

Sorry to hear that Michael.

prometheus
12-02-2017, 04:27 PM
I'm truly saddened to hear of your loss; please accept sincere condolences on behalf of all at NewTek.


Sorry to hear that. Keep smiling, keep well, that is what he would want...



I'm terribly sorry for your loss Michael.

The very best wishes in this difficult time.

Paul Boland gives good advice.
Look forward, also.


Sorry to hear that Michael.

Thanks for all the condolences and all the kind words of encouragement, It will help further ahead when dealing with my emotions that I do not think yet have arrived, dealing with mourning etc.
All of us four children that he had were there to pay respect and bid farewell, and we are pretty healthy ...and my two brothers that hadnīt spoken to each other for several years, due to a silly quarrel, they now finally got a chance to talk to each other in a good way.

A candle was lit, Outside it was a cold november day..but the sun shined through a bit in the morning and hit the face of my father that gave the scene a nice glow so to speak, and the light around him was pretty nice due to all that, I do not believe in any life after this..but I am sort of glad he now doesnīt have to struggle against the harsch life at an old age anymore, nothing of that to burden anymore...so I am glad for that yet moarning the loss.

erikals
12-02-2017, 04:54 PM
for some (me included) mourning sometimes arrives at a later stage.

a comfort can be that from an agnostic point of view, where there might be 'something' else after life.

glad, if i can use that word, that your father had a comforting last day, with people around him.


- best wishes

shrox
12-02-2017, 07:31 PM
All good fathers.

fishhead
12-03-2017, 03:00 AM
My thoughts are with you and your family.

gerry_g
12-03-2017, 06:11 AM
sorry to hear, but at least he clocked up ninety years and died peacefully, any one of us should be so lucky

prometheus
12-03-2017, 01:41 PM
sorry to hear, but at least he clocked up ninety years and died peacefully, any one of us should be so lucky

Thanks gerry, 91 years and dying in elderly care seem to be a peacefull way to go, to some degree it may have been..and especially if you compare to how people end their life.
We are not sure exactly what the cause of death may have been..Most likely a result of him breaking his shoulder blade mysteriously..as in we do not know how he broke it, he doesnīt seem to have fallen, he could have been leaning on some hard edge on the bed or something and turning thus causing a break due to his most likely fragile skeleton, and consequently it may have caused blood clot or something that may have interfered to the blood pumping to the heart or the brain, they really do not do autopsy in cases like this and at that age.

I know though that he wasnīt really communicatable the last 2 years that much, and the last year very little..and I do not think he enjoyed the life the last 3 years, havinga huge varicocele never been taking care of, and he had to be dragged up out of bed and further helped with his walker but slowly being able to walk with it, I actually think it would have been better of for him if he had went away a bit earlier, shortly after he may have lost his communication abilities etc, if you are that capable of talking with your relatives etc and making yourself understandable..itīs a completely different life I suppose.
We on the other hand had him a longer time of course, but at the same time not being able to communicate with him that much.

My sisters man, his mother is on the other hand 101 years old, now at elderly care..but at the age of 97-98...I think she was in a really great condition, still standing and walking and making jokes, quite a difference VS my father really.
So much that plays a role to how long and well we age, were we are born and brought up, the genes..avoiding accidents and diseases, eating and living healthy food, this lady was a home wife so to speak..may not have been under working stress or such physical stress.

My mother passed away in 2011 ...after that my father wasnīt really that joyful in life, but managed to hang on for 6 years anyway.

allabulle
12-03-2017, 02:22 PM
My condolences prometheus.