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Chernoby
07-23-2017, 06:26 PM
I have been finding that funding and distribution is way easier to achieve with games than animation proper. And there is way more mooney in Game publishing than Animation or VFX. I'm talking indie and small studio stuff.

Thoughts?

http://www.cartoonbrew.com/interviews/everything-creator-david-oreilly-hard-truths-moving-away-animation-150296.html

samurai_x
07-23-2017, 08:36 PM
Meh..there's more money in youtube.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChMr7AuVSPg

Exclaim
07-23-2017, 11:15 PM
I think there is a difference between animation and entertainment. I think most skilled animators want to produce work that they like, audiences might not find it entertaining though. I am confident that animation can get funded like graphic novels and comics. Artist have to create interesting and palatable characters/stories.

Surrealist.
07-23-2017, 11:31 PM
I have been finding that funding and distribution is way easier to achieve with games than animation proper. And there is way more mooney in Game publishing than Animation or VFX. I'm talking indie and small studio stuff.

Thoughts?



Well, it is not just games. It is game, or rather real-time technology. And VR is huge now. It is going to even get bigger and more integrated into training, just as one example. The list of industries that use game (not necessarily VR) technology for training purposes and other uses is quite large. And VR is already impacting this. It will be on the rise in the future.

So the deal is, we are content creators.

Many of us have already beeb working with commercials or arch vis, industrial visualizations and promos, or medical visualizations, legal and on and on. These have been with us a long time. But now real-time technology has already moved into these various industries. And they all need content creators.

I would say there is not a lot of money to be made in indie games. Those guys are cheep. Understandably. Many times it is a promise to make big money on release. But the budgets to get there are rather small. Most cases unrealistic and the projects simply fail.

For AAA games they want young ambitious employee/slaves to beat the door down to work for their slave masters and win over a competitive field of other artists trying to make it in.

I'd say the indie (freelance work) money is in other markets.

This has been my experience.

tischbein3
07-24-2017, 12:02 AM
Agree with Richard,

rt technology is where currently the money is. Especially as for freelancing.
Also its the area with the lowest entry barrier (if you don't target AAA games wich is a
pretty similar job market as for going vfx).

As for indie games, I think they are good to get your feet wet in that area. But you need
to buildup a strong filter to avoid the 3d circus bullcrap. (lot of work for free guys)

Surrealist.
07-24-2017, 12:07 AM
In sheep's clothing usually. ;)

tischbein3
07-24-2017, 05:48 AM
Yeah luckily in most cases clothing comes off very quickly if you start to talk about payment ;)

Surrealist.
07-24-2017, 06:22 AM
lol..."ah, I'm getting cold... gotta run..."

Spinland
07-24-2017, 08:42 AM
Interesting stuff. I also agree with Richard's observation that indie games can be a losing proposition unless they are already funded and offer you good terms up front. I've had similar issues with indie film producers (but, the exposure, man!) and in every such case I make it clear I'm a hired gun, not part of their "vision," and like the food they order out I need to be paid as we go. I'm in a fortunate position as this area is poised to take off in multiple commercial areas at once, including a burgeoning indie film industry, so I'm getting access to producers with realistic expectations and budgets. My impression of the gaming industry is like that of the horror stories in VFX sweat shops, so I'm personally skeptical (plus I'm not a gamer so I have no emotional investment in that industry).

Surrealist.
07-24-2017, 09:13 AM
There is a large contingent of the indie game "market" made up of gamers who want to make games. Well, enough said.

But there is another market that sort of took off. And that is the mobile app game market. That market as far as I understand is largely driven by a lot of residuals. So it is a different business model. But at any rate. I lived through a lot of that stuff and saw a lot of people pop up here and there. And I never really made any money in that market at all. Though I did dabble in it for a while to try and work up stuff for my reel. And it worked well for me at the time.

And then indie mobile games. A trailer I made for one of these jokers wound up turning into a lot of work for other clients. In fact it led directly to my opening a studio. So I worked my *** off for a month to create a decent piece of work for little pay and it gave me a great addition to my reel. Which is exactly what I wanted.

So I guess all of this boils down to doing what you need to do at the time to get to the next level.

But as far as money is concerned, just go with what is working for you. Like Spinland has found his way into decent indie film work.

I think there is a lot of money in medical and military industries. Both of these industries use real time technology and they need content. My biggest client last year was military and my current large account is in the medical industry.

Not my favorite thing to do, but it pays the bills.

ConjureBunny
07-24-2017, 09:18 AM
For the record, I do a lot of game work (mostly programming), and there's a real need for quality artists. There's a lot you can get cheap on the Asset Stores now, but custom stuff is always hit or miss. Zbrush has made it easy to create high poly, beautiful stuff that is in no shape for game work. Other programs have weird hangups like default units being set to inches. Unity uses meters (which LW uses), and Unreal uses Centimeters. IMO, LightWave is the best suited product for game development I've seen.

-Chilton

samurai_x
07-25-2017, 10:05 AM
VR is hype.

Spinland
07-25-2017, 10:35 AM
VR is hype.

If so, it's hype that will generate me some lucrative gigs this year. In negotiations right now with an architecture company that wants to up their fly-by and walk-through visualization game, and I'm on tap to help them with that. I did a lot of interactive 3D viz work for the military both in uniform and as a contractor and from where I sit (stand, I work at a standing desk) VR is made of cha-ching. :jam:

Chernoby
07-25-2017, 01:39 PM
If so, it's hype that will generate me some lucrative gigs this year. In negotiations right now with an architecture company that wants to up their fly-by and walk-through visualization game, and I'm on tap to help them with that. I did a lot of interactive 3D viz work for the military both in uniform and as a contractor and from where I sit (stand, I work at a standing desk) VR is made of cha-ching. :jam:

Agreed, Spinland.

Samurai-X, don't resist! Get that mooney! That sweet VR hype mooney!

Danner
07-25-2017, 01:44 PM
it might be over-hyped, but it is real. I'ts the best way to experience 3d content and it's a lot of fun. I've owned a Vive for more than a year and I still use it almost every day. I've also done 3 paid vr projects. =)

shrox
07-25-2017, 02:00 PM
VR is hype.

I've already made some money in it...

TreyX
07-25-2017, 05:33 PM
If so, it's hype that will generate me some lucrative gigs this year. In negotiations right now with an architecture company that wants to up their fly-by and walk-through visualization game, and I'm on tap to help them with that. I did a lot of interactive 3D viz work for the military both in uniform and as a contractor and from where I sit (stand, I work at a standing desk) VR is made of cha-ching. :jam:

i'm not so sure in relation to consumer-side. they said the same thing about 3D TV's (which i have, btw, and a collection of about 45 blockbuster 3D Blu-Rays). I never go to the theatre anymore, as i have just as good an experience in my own studio! but now, 3D TV's bombed commercially. as long as the clunky VR headsets are required, tho, i don't see commercial VR taking off at all (google glass anyone? ppl thought that was going to be the next big thing too...). for military or law enforcement training, however, i can see VR as a lucrative tool.

Spinland
07-25-2017, 06:19 PM
i'm not so sure in relation to consumer-side. they said the same thing about 3D TV's (which i have, btw, and a collection of about 45 blockbuster 3D Blu-Rays). I never go to the theatre anymore, as i have just as good an experience in my own studio! but now, 3D TV's bombed commercially. as long as the clunky VR headsets are required, tho, i don't see commercial VR taking off at all (google glass anyone? ppl thought that was going to be the next big thing too...). for military or law enforcement training, however, i can see VR as a lucrative tool.

Yeah, on the consumer side I'm still on the fence; but, on the commercial front (as example, the aforementioned archviz opportunity) there's some hay to be made. Even if the concept eventually fizzles I'll cash in while the horse lets me ride it. :rock:

shrox
07-25-2017, 06:36 PM
Yeah, on the consumer side I'm still on the fence; but, on the commercial front (as example, the aforementioned archviz opportunity) there's some hay to be made. Even if the concept eventually fizzles I'll cash in while the horse lets me ride it. :rock:

Do you have a render farm per chance?

Spinland
07-25-2017, 06:46 PM
Do you have a render farm per chance?

Yes; a modest one but I can do 30 frames at a time. For bigger stuff than that I'll leverage one of the commercial farms.

shrox
07-25-2017, 07:30 PM
Yes; a modest one but I can do 30 frames at a time. For bigger stuff than that I'll leverage one of the commercial farms.

Right now I am waiting on a 2500 frame 4k VR animation at 40 mins+ a frame on one machine. Got 8 threads though!

VermilionCat
07-25-2017, 09:05 PM
1666 hours? 70 days? Seriously?

shrox
07-25-2017, 09:36 PM
1666 hours? 70 days? Seriously?

Yep, although it's down to 25 mins a frame now that the volumetric lights have moved away. But they'll be back!

VermilionCat
07-25-2017, 11:51 PM
That's horrifying... Can you at least use some cheat on volumetrics?

Surrealist.
07-26-2017, 12:18 AM
Yeah. Turn it off.

50one
07-26-2017, 01:24 AM
4K frame in Octane - tons of geo from CAD - takes around 5 mins if I'm really pushing for quality.

FHD frame - HiQ - around 2mins.

You should really invest in Octane - GPU - Even one PC with two cards will be blazing fast.

Spinland
07-26-2017, 05:36 AM
4K frame in Octane - tons of geo from CAD - takes around 5 mins if I'm really pushing for quality.

FHD frame - HiQ - around 2mins.

You should really invest in Octane - GPU - Even one PC with two cards will be blazing fast.

Sounds good, except for the needing PCs part. ;)

lardbros
07-26-2017, 06:50 AM
VR is hype.

It IS hype right now... but we've been doing VR for 17 years. Hype is helping us get even more customers :)

Spinland
07-26-2017, 06:55 AM
It IS hype right now... but we've been doing VR for 17 years. Hype is helping us get even more customers :)

I hear "hype" as "free advertising." ;)

50one
07-26-2017, 07:58 AM
Sounds good, except for the needing PCs part. ;)

True that, I have the hardware povided by the company I'm working for.
Have no interest in investing any more money into PC for "personal use".

Kaptive
07-26-2017, 11:33 AM
re: hype... the hype represents how much investment has been put into it I think. There is way too much focus on it as being the next step for it to go away.

Out of interest (without going too off topic I hope) I watched the following interview with the Wired editor/futurist Kevin Kelly. He has access to much of the future development tech in that his notoriety has let him visit all of the main contenders in the VR field. Also, I imagine that he has had in depth talks with them about the real goals and aims. He paints an interesting picture, but at one point sounds quite terrifying on the privacy front. Really worth a watch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYatVwjtZCs

Unless we have some weird tech back step, eye interfaces or virtual displays will be the long term future of computer/human interfacing. Monitors and TVs may die altogether at some point. But not for a couple of decades I'm sure. I'm thinking retinal projectors... that stuff is already in development.

Rayek
07-26-2017, 03:45 PM
My main concern is the use of Wifi to stream content to these VR helmets. I'd never put a microwave transmitter close to my brain (yes, that includes cell phones). It's established now by a lot of research that wifi (4g, 5g) disrupt cell membranes/functionality and cause a myriad of other health issues (including quite convincing links to brain cancer). Heck, even the iPhone manual tells you NOT to hold the phone too close against the skin.

Hopefully all that quantum entanglement research will prove to be a game changer at some point in wireless communications - without the negative side effects on natural systems. Plants use it, so why no emulate nature?

Ernest
07-26-2017, 07:52 PM
There was a nice article posted a couple of days ago on the Oculus blog. It covers so many different areas of research on VR. The hand tracking video was especially interesting.

https://www.oculus.com/blog/vrs-grand-challenge-michael-abrash-on-the-future-of-human-interaction/

Surrealist.
07-27-2017, 05:22 AM
Virtual Reality is the umbrella term for all experience, interaction-related applications wherein you have software and hardware providing an interface with the viewer for that viewer to experience something. Be that for entertainment or training or other practical uses in industry. One of my clients developed a VR environment which started in 1994 as a military project to make it possible for doctors to perform remote surgery. This currently has evolved into a system which uses a console where the doctor sits and uses controllers to manipulate robotic surgery tools on the patient a few feet away.

Old flight simulators which use large screens are Virstual Reality. New ones that use primarily computer screens where the user sits is VR. Games are VR.

Immersive VR, is what most people are referring to with VR which is what all of the hype is about.

So I agree with samurai_x. It is gimmicky and as a consumer use it may or may not click. Like so many other things. Industry and education will continue to use it regardless.

However the way I see people burry their heads in their smart phones wherever they go, I am not so sure VR glasses are not too far off where people can tune out the world entirely and walk around like the zombies they already are with cel phone addiction becoming rampant.

This scene from WALL E comes to mind.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1BQPV-iCkU

ActionBob
07-27-2017, 08:13 AM
I own a HTC Vive and while it does have its shortcomings as a first gen consumer product, it is an amazing experience. Sure there are a lot of silly games, but once you do a proper flight sim like the DCS series in VR, you would find that your higher res, fancy flat monitor is just lacking. It is the difference between looking at a pretty moving picture on a flat screen and actually BEING there. Scale, depth and 6 degrees of movement cannot be matched. Last night I was practicing landing a P-51 Mustang (and failing miserably, bouncing and then crashing on the runway - best landing was a walk-away with damage to landing gear). With the fanciest monitor, the cockpit looks amazing. With VR, the cockpit almost seems real - with everything being in proper 3D space - it surrounds you and you get a feeling for just how cramped those small cockpits were. I am not enve going to into the room scale experience you have with the Vive - another amazing experience.

For those not familiar, DCS is a series of modules representing, in high fidelity (not just models, but simulated systems and flight characteristics) of military aircraft. DCS in its purest, most realistic setting is about as close as you can come to studying and flying the real deal.

Second Gen consumer grade stuff is only going to get better with higher resolutions, non-tethered (wireless) and lighter interfaces.

Those that say it is gimicky have their right to their opinions, but I am guessing that like most things to be experienced, part of that experience is formed by your prejudices (however formed). Pick up some gimicky vr game and that is what you think VR is. Have a proper, well done VR experience and it will blow your mind.

While the video above depicts a possible future, my VR experiences are not all sitting. For instance, I don't have a racquetball court in my house. But I have a game that simulates the racquetball experience. With room scame VR, you don't have to drive to the Gym, worry about a membership and deal with other peoples sweat and dirt on equipment. I can play racquetball in my house and I DO start sweating as it is an ACTIVE, FULL BODY experience.

Now I am just waiting for VRCoat to come out (a proper set of modeling tools in vr would be amazing - the tech will get there no matter the nay-sayers). Luddites sometimes have a point, but many times, they simply don't like change. :-)

-Adrian

Spinland
07-27-2017, 08:22 AM
Wow, that description of DCS is simply amazing. I got my first 3D gigs doing add-on aircraft for the Microsoft flight sim and combat flight sim games, and for years I was heavily active in the online combat flight sim community. Back then the coolest gadget was the IR tracker on your hat so you can move your head and have the screen react with a shifting perspective. Doing that in VR (I'll be getting a full Vive-based MOCAP set soon, including a helmet, for another up-coming gig) just might be what gets me to drag my old cockpit control gear out of the attic. :)

ActionBob
07-27-2017, 09:54 AM
For simulation, DCS cannot be beat. However, all the modules, while good, are not created equally, but they are still miles above your average flight sim.

One of the shortcomings of current gen crop is resolution though. While great for general environments, some of the gauges can be hard to read in the aircraft. However, if you have a stout enough machine, turning up super-sampling can help a lot with that - but you definitely want a machine robust enough to keep you at that 90 and above FPS so you don't get motion sickness.

So, yeah, VR IS great. But like with any other system, console or whatever; there is really good stuff for it and also a lot of crap. You just have to do your research before spending money.

To give you an idea of the effort that goes into each of the planes in DCS (plane modules that you buy, not Flaming Cliffs series which is good, but not the same level of fidelity) you would compare the coding for each individual aircraft being comparable to the coding that goes into a FULL AAA title. This explains why an individual module in DCS can cost as much as a AAA title of a different sort. But if you are into flight sims, both modern and classic WW2 aircraft, then it is the way to go. They have a helicopter sim called DCS KA-50 BlackShark - it is the most frustrating and satisfying helicopter sim available. Really difficult to master, but so much fun when you do (or so I am told as I have not mastered it yet). ;-)

-Adrian

Spinland
07-27-2017, 10:07 AM
Oi. So, when I start missing deadlines can I refer my angry clients to you? Heh.

I'm saving all this info for when things ease up at the studio and I get some play time. I'd lost touch with the state of the art in flight sim game tech and I'm getting chuffed at your descriptions. :jam:

ActionBob
07-27-2017, 10:30 AM
Oi. So, when I start missing deadlines can I refer my angry clients to you? Heh.

I'm saving all this info for when things ease up at the studio and I get some play time. I'd lost touch with the state of the art in flight sim game tech and I'm getting chuffed at your descriptions. :jam:

You can just offload that boring work to me! ;-)

Don't you deserve a break? :-)

-Adrian

Spinland
07-27-2017, 10:40 AM
You can just offload that boring work to me! ;-)

Don't you deserve a break? :-)

-Adrian

Well played, sir; well played. ;)

samurai_x
07-28-2017, 11:30 AM
I went to Syntrend recently. They have a whole floor of VR attractions eating dust. The excitement fades quickly. Here's a free coupon.
Maybe it wont fade quickly for fps gamers.

Rayek
07-28-2017, 11:41 AM
As long as VR requires awkward helmets/glasses that make you look like a big-goggled alien it'll never be completely accepted. Perhaps as contact lenses? Or built into regular (sun)glasses - then it will be acceptable by the general public. But not before that happens.

ActionBob
07-28-2017, 01:07 PM
It's not all about games. That is just one popular facet.

I am not much of a gamer anymore, but I do enjoy my flight sims and other VR experiences. Say what you will, but my positive predictions and observations are a much happier place than negative ones.

VR and AR are here to stay... It has been around for decades, but is finally coming into its own at a consumer level. Computers and other hardware is finally powerful enough, cheap enough and evolving at a decent pace - things are looking bright indeed. My next hardware upgrade will, in fact, be centered around optimizing my VR experience.

Have had it since the Vive fist came out over a year ago and still think it is amazing for all its short-comings. The tech will get better and I will spend my hard-earned cash on that when it comes out. Other than VR / AR, there really isn't ANY tech that excites me like this does / has.

VR doesn't have to be accepted by the general public. It just has to be profitable in the market it is aimed at. That could be a wider audience, but there are plenty of companies that cater to the more niche.

Heck, I have a 500 dollar stick and throttle H.O.T.A.S setup and would not be accepted by the general public at that price point. But that doesn't mean it isn't an excellent tool that enhances my experience beyond a general joystick. In the past, I indulged in fancy force-feedback steering wheel setups for my racing games - racing game are quite popular, but not everyone uses a wheel (although it makes for a much better experience). They still make these niche products because there is a demand.

Not everything needs to be widely accepted. I indulge in other activities that are probably considered niche and nerdy. Some of those are now growing businesses; once niche that the big box stores are now trying to bank in on, as they flounder to keep themselves afloat, because times change and their old business models just don't work that well any more.


VR ROCKS!

:rock:

-Adrian

Spinland
07-28-2017, 07:48 PM
Say what you will, but my positive predictions and observations are a much happier place than negative ones.

QFA. The only thing any of us have complete control over is our attitude. If you want to react to circumstances by being negative...that says more about you and your issues than about anything else. You need to understand the difference between being a Pollyanna and being positive.


Heck, I have a 500 dollar stick and throttle H.O.T.A.S setup and would not be accepted by the general public at that price point.

Yup. I have a box full of expensive CH Products HOTAS gear myself, and I couldn't bring myself to get rid of it. It might again be resurrected when work gives me time to climb back into a virtual cockpit and teach some gomers the wiley ways of energy fighting. :rock: