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AmigaNewTek
07-17-2017, 03:58 AM
Hello everyone,

i would like to create a realistic sand/rocky desert scene and i don't know where to start.

Any hint or tutorial?

Thank you in advance

Ryan Roye
07-17-2017, 04:48 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yaBZVr-s80

alexs3d
07-17-2017, 05:30 AM
Hi, at first it is important that you have some good reference images, where you/we can see how how your scene should look like and how your final image should look like.

Next Steps would be the terain, look for some displacement maps or try it procedurally in lightwave to make sand dunes or rocky terain

Then i would do the lighting, maybe try it with the sund and sky plugin and then look for some good textures of sand and so on ....

hope this was helpfull, if you post some reference images we can help you further

alex

AmigaNewTek
07-17-2017, 05:43 AM
Thank you all.

I thought i would have to start creating a terrain with some sort of sand texture.

prometheus
07-18-2017, 10:12 AM
Thank you all.

I thought i would have to start creating a terrain with some sort of sand texture.

You can start anywhere:) hard to tell if we donīt know exactly what type of desert, and I have never seen or been in anyone in real life.

sand texture, well...only for basic ground and grain perhaps, the rest is a lot of varied rock in various types and sizes, from shards, pebbles, stone to mid rock and large rock maybe, that is probably the range.
The advance placement is probably absolutly great to take the pain out of placing things, but it may also be expensive for someting you may not absolutly need...depends on how much you aim to do this kind of thing and if you may find yourself low on time and may need it for work etc.

But otherwise you can also simulate almost the same by using bullet and trow it in there, you can collect various stones in one layer and use bullet part mode and drop them down and let them settle, then load another part and do the same, maybe change position, or dynamic settings.
Another way to distibute rock parts, that would be to let a particle emitter flow down some areas, then use instances and connect some rocks to the particles..there it will however be trickier and more of the same type of stones though.

and other approach would be to use procedural textures, or a painted texture as distribution maps and use that when instancing rock parts..
And yet another would be to simply use modeler and place mesh, where you can paint in objects from certain layers to a foreground layer, with control of scaling and rotation for it, to be aware of is that you should have your stone objects located at origin spot before using place mesh, it uses that pivot point when attaching place meshed to any poly normal you put it on.

Thereīs also another way in modeler that I need to check up and get back to.

I would also consider getting the crackit plugin, use it on a mesh to split pieces, so then run metaform plus on it, that will give you instant stone or rock pieces, to further enhance, then I would suggest taking a look at free blender and rock creation there, and mainly sculpt some parts, then send back to lightwave.

There is also the way of going with photogrammetry, some very nice pieces of Real Rocks can be found on sketchfab, amazing how much they have over there now...but it is ofcourse not for commercial use, unless you contact the author and make a deal.
You can also make your own with photogrammetry, but it will take some time.

Foremost is that you need to be clear on what kind of desert you want, and have the proper reference on it as alexs3d mentioned.

Edited, well ...sculptris may also help with rocks and stones, itīs free and you have a nice texture painting option that is easy to get going with, it uses tiled uv mapping, and you can choose to paint with both texture and bump at the same time, or use one or the other, as well as paint directly with displacement, sculptris has a nice way of blending when you paint in the textures....

hereīs a horrible rock shape demonstrating painting in of textures, first some bump, then some mixture of textures..nevermind the actual rock shape, just more testing texture painting..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-QRbc63CAs


For more advanced and punch in realism, you would probably like to sculpt a hig res detail surface,
then bake that to a normal map to apply on your final pieces, instead of using so dense meshes, but thatīs not for beginner level.

prometheus
07-18-2017, 10:21 AM
And why photogrammetry...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs5nBoIxnOg

shrox
07-18-2017, 10:30 AM
This is the desert I grew up in.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sonoran+desert&client=tablet-android-verizon&prmd=minv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7_pm1oJPVAhVK9IMKHZvkB4UQ_AUICigC&biw=960&bih=600

prometheus
07-18-2017, 10:48 AM
This is the desert I grew up in.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sonoran+desert&client=tablet-android-verizon&prmd=minv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7_pm1oJPVAhVK9IMKHZvkB4UQ_AUICigC&biw=960&bih=600

:stumped:

Which one?

and as shrox also knows about, you can use hypervoxels for some rock parts, though I am not much for that approach nowadays, assigning hvīs to particles or points, there are some pitfalls in how the shape works out, and some bugs if you mix them with a procedural ground texture, then again if you use a texture that shouldnīt be a problem.

prometheus
07-18-2017, 10:54 AM
Oh..sorry shrox, It first looked as there was many different desert landscapes from various areas, but itīs just many variations.
I like those flat iron peaks.

shrox
07-18-2017, 11:26 AM
Oh..sorry shrox, It first looked as there was many different desert landscapes from various areas, but itīs just many variations.
I like those flat iron peaks.

The Sonoran desert in Arizona, it covers the southern half of the state.

TreyX
07-18-2017, 11:53 AM
Hello everyone,

i would like to create a realistic sand/rocky desert scene and i don't know where to start.

Any hint or tutorial?

Thank you in advance

are you going to do a desert in africa, the middle east, australian outback or america? picking a region is the first step. i have been to deserts/the bush in all of these places (with the exception of australia -- on my bucket list), and their landscapes are unique.

then begin your research. as a desert creature myself (lived for many years in the arid new mexico/USA desert), there are specific ecologies to each desert region. for example, arizona deserts are vastly different than arid deserts in color, plant species, rock formations and wildlife. once you determine which region you prefer, then research the various plants and formations found in this specific desert. this way, your render will not only have a beautiful look, but will also be realistic in respect to ecological elements. a good example is the saguaro cactus, only found in arizona. it's a dead giveaway when i see movies or TV shows supposedly taking place new mexico or nevada/death valley deserts (i.e., westerns) that have saguaro cactus in the scenes. so many people love this classic cactus' look, but placing it where it does not belong may fool those who have never been in a desert, but irritate those of us who know the desert and immediately cast the scene creator as ignorant. and of course, saharan deserts and other dune-based deserts stand alone in their ecologies and geography -- a good sculpting program would be a benefit here, to create the swells and movement of the dunes...

use actual photographic reference for your color palette as well. new mexico and nevada deserts have more of a yellow & ochre color to their landscape, while arizona has the red "painted" desert feel. keep your rock formations consistent with the location for a true, authentic and accurate render. make sure to incorporate lighting color contrasts for a dramatic effect: afternoon & evening: warm colors for the sun/key lights, with cool colors for the shadows (cool purples and blues); mornings: cool key lights and warm shadows.

UV creation is going to be imperative for a realistic look -- hand paint your UV's in a paint program for scenic elements, and use the color palette consistently throughout for a unified look. you can use photographic material for bumps and displacements.

deserts are wonderful, powerful and spiritual places that create a sense of expanse and majesty. have FUN! and please post your progress - i, personally, would love to see what you come up with....

shrox
07-18-2017, 03:42 PM
...deserts are wonderful, powerful and spiritual places....

No! The desert is a horrible place you can't wait to grow up and move away from!

Well, actually, I thought I would never love a place as much as I did the Sonoran desert, until I moved to the giant redwoods of the Pacific Northwest. I grew up in Phoenix and the area south of Queen Creek. I still like the area around Tucson.

prometheus
07-18-2017, 05:13 PM
No! The desert is a horrible place you can't wait to grow up and move away from!

Well, actually, I thought I would never love a place as much as I did the Sonoran desert, until I moved to the giant redwoods of the Pacific Northwest. I grew up in Phoenix and the area south of Queen Creek. I still like the area around Tucson.

I can imagine going for a visit in the desert or in those canyon lands, interesting landscape to watch ..but only for some day or two, but I donīt think I would like it there, I am not a fan of too hot weather, and I guess I would like to get back to nearby forests and streams and lakes for fishing and recreation.

Philbert
07-18-2017, 05:44 PM
You might enjoy this talk Dice did on how they made the environments in Star Wars: Battlefront using photogrammetry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_WaqCBp9zo

TreyX
07-18-2017, 07:21 PM
No! The desert is a horrible place you can't wait to grow up and move away from!

Well, actually, I thought I would never love a place as much as I did the Sonoran desert, until I moved to the giant redwoods of the Pacific Northwest. I grew up in Phoenix and the area south of Queen Creek. I still like the area around Tucson.

lol. at heart, i am a desert creature. i now live in texas, but long for a return to life in the desert. to each his own. Haha. i've had very mystical experiences in the desert. on the zuni day of the dead, when i was alone at el morro in the western new mexican desert, i was surrounded by spirits of anasazi warriors - they rode horses around me and i could hear the hooves and the battle cries, as well as feel the wind swirling around me kicked up by their horses. my dogs did too -- they could see them, even though i could only hear them. when u have an encounter like that which defies belief and transcends physics and the laws of this universe, you develop a very deep respect for the desert and all of the secrets it holds...

erikals
07-18-2017, 07:32 PM
many ways... ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnDmhSkR-f4

TreyX
07-18-2017, 08:03 PM
oooooh, that's lovely. :)

prometheus
07-19-2017, 02:23 AM
using weightmap projected texture map or procedural texture is fine, and also allows for further retouching with the weight airbrush if needed, and it works with some older lw versions, for lw 2015 you can however use the drag texture fallof settings (use texture) be sure to not have the y-axis set to 0, but to 1 ..otherwise I do not think it will work properly ..that is if you use automatic size.

you can use any procedural or texture with texture falloff, and add many layers, activate and drag, deactivate layer and activate another and drag and so forth....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inzIpvpwjzs

I would also recommend looking up Ary3d on youtube and check some of his artwork with descriptions here on this forum, David Aguero.

and as erikals also mentioned, there may be times when you may want to use this weightmap in modeler approach, or drag texture as I shown, but otherwise if you can go with layout and displacements there, do it ..since it is more of a non destructive workflow where you at any time can lower or raise subpatch level and poly detail as well as usin adaptive displacement, and also turning on off textures at any time and change them, copy and paste layers that you need or donīt need.

as for drag texture and weight paint, at some thousands of polys, it will become unworkable in the current modeler (letīs hope the new engine will do something, maybe not this release?) i think I havenīt really touched the drag texture falloff anymore since I can perform better deforms and sculpts by simply using blenders sculpt tools and use anchored brush mode and drag the textue displacement rock sculpt where it is needed, you can find some nice zbrush rock brush that is free, that is very good to use for instant rock displacement, you may want to optimize and reduce it after, and remeshing and reducin modifiers can do that, with some nifty planar functions to yield sharp flat areas.
a tip is to render out procedural textures from lightwave, by for instance setting up textured environment or using hypervoxels in sprite mode and some effects, render out in uniform aspect ratio quad, and then use those textures within blender, and mix with blenders own procedurals.
with blenders dynamic topo mode, and the snake hook brush, you can get nice rock peaks, and you can also reduce or enhance poly detail with topo mode on if you paint without any strength, that will then only reduce or increase poly detail without deforming, depending on high or low pixel value set.

prometheus
07-19-2017, 02:26 AM
And for dunes, and layout, though this is most likely not what you want for desert with rocks...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnd8AuXpUs4

prometheus
07-19-2017, 02:51 AM
I must add, a few heads up on the drag texture tool, if not careful and turned off and maybe even remove all textures if you are finnished using it, otherwise it may ..most certainly interfere with other tools, transform, drag magnet, dragnet etc and it will not give you the correct results, drag texture has also no way of deforming per poly normal..unlike a proper sculpting tool, so with such cons in mind and the fact you can not use it on denser meshes, and you do not have paint brushes in a continous flow..I rather just use blenders sculpt or sculptris, though I think blenders sculpt tool has surpassed sculptris..perhaps not in performance per poly amount..and the texture painting, but in most other aspects.

erikals
07-19-2017, 06:36 AM
for lw 2015 you can however use the drag texture falloff settings
yes, quite nice.


I would also recommend looking up Ary3d on youtube and check some of his artwork with descriptions here on this forum, David Agüero.
Absolutely :)   https://www.youtube.com/user/davidaguero3d/videos


And for dunes, and layout, though this is most likely not what you want for desert with rocks...
ridged multifractal procedural look great for dunes. Thanks for this info, didn't know, always leaned towards FBM or pure multifractal.
Nice. :)

----------------------

like Ryan says, do check out Advanced Placement
http://hurleyworks.com/wordpress/lightwaveplugins

and also OD Toolset
http://origamidigital.com/newtypo/index.php/software.html

----------------------

Blender Rock Essentials = QuiteNice, but you need $Dollars$
https://blendermarket.com/products/the-rock-essentials

----------------------

Free Rock Alpha Brushes
http://www.cgchannel.com/2012/04/download-125-custom-zbrush-and-3d-coat-brushes

scott.newman.ct
07-19-2017, 08:06 AM
Erikals those dunes are amazing!

That texture that you painted for the dunes - what app was that done in? Was that some kind of paint function inside Lightwave or was that in a 3rd party app?

Sorry for the simple question....

erikals
07-19-2017, 08:54 AM
could be of use... :) >


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfiFedl0l90


Erikals those dunes are amazing!
Hey Thanks! :D
just pure PhotoShop CS3 with "Liquify" :)
you can see the steps in the beginning of the video, unfortunately recording fullscreen video wasn't possible back then. (misc reasons)

prometheus
07-19-2017, 09:02 AM
Erikals those dunes are amazing!

That texture that you painted for the dunes - what app was that done in? Was that some kind of paint function inside Lightwave or was that in a 3rd party app?

Sorry for the simple question....

Looks like photoshop to me, and itīs definitely not a paint function inside lightwave, though you can actually paint vertex map or weightmaps, but may not be the proper workflow initially, and he probably use smear or liquify to push out the strokes after the initial maximum filter.

You can use free krita and do the same, and perhaps actually use verve free dynamic fluid painting, like in my sample where I use a smear brush with liquid dynamics to push a lightwave render, you can use this on a greyscale map, either if you first paint inital strokes, or combine by render a fractal out..then fluid smear paint it, you can set how fast the paint will dry or if it will flow with liquidity a long time...so this is realtime and real liquify, I do not like the photoshop cs3 liquify, too slow.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrCii5iHp7o

prometheus
07-19-2017, 09:10 AM
ridged multifractal procedural look great for dunes. Thanks for this info, didn't know, always leaned towards FBM or pure multifractal.
Nice. :)

[/url]

the ridged multifractal is one of my favourites, and also...One important setting is also go to the noise mode for ridged multifractal and to skip perlin noise and play around with value noise and gradient noise, and I maybe be using the value noise the most, especially in relation to other important settings as increasing or decreasing the offset, depending ofcourse of the other settings, but doing that will yield some intracte extra detail ridges that you never knew where there or existed until you touch them :)
and also inverting that gradient and using such offset will yield a sort of crack erosion effect, may need to record that, you need to have enough subpatch levels to get that to show properly though, probably at least 500 000.
Additionally when using procedurals, you can use another gradient over it, so controll how sharp your ridges, creases should be..based on the gradient.

erikals
07-19-2017, 09:11 AM
cool, in some ways Krita could even work better.

----------------------

yeah, certainly will mix ridged multifractal with hand-painted etc in the future :)

prometheus
07-19-2017, 09:21 AM
And further more, by using a texture displacement layer, above the actual procedural texture, you can actually distort the layer that way for extra undulation, to be aware of ... if you use a large scale of 1000 meter or something, you will probably have to raise the texture displacement opacity very high, maybe to 1000 for it to kick in properly, or raisy the the values high.

prometheus
07-19-2017, 09:24 AM
cool, in some ways Krita could even work better.

----------------------

yeah, certainly will mix ridged multifractal with hand-painted etc in the future :)

I am looking in to ways of getting nice sprouted branches from some type of paint program or vector program ..I have particle9 which I think I tried, but wasnīt fully satisfied with getting what I wanted, inkscape a sort of lsystem tool, and some other filter which I need to look in too, fiddling with inkscape now, and you have some interesting lsystem and random tree filters to make branched paths, and then run the distortion felt feather to smooth them in inkscape, it also has a live preview so you can see the changes before applying.

erikals
07-19-2017, 09:44 AM
$60 Flora3D could be used - http://flora3d.net
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuqg4jnDBoM

flatten the object in Zdepth, render out a clipmap/texture

haven't found any good trees/plants using "vector only" lsystem, they tend to look too "generated"

prometheus
07-19-2017, 09:45 AM
Hereīs screenshots on inkscape, a simple random tree filter, you could or maybe should use lsystem instead in inkscape, under extensions render lsystem..it helps knowing how too set the parameters though, then run this felt feather distortion filter on it, it has some dilation and erosion and noise and turbulence effect, so in the end you can get a sort of river erosion path, or invert and make it a ridge path ..save it out to best bitmap format and raise or lower on subpatched geometry.
This is not exact physic sience, and one would probably desire real erosions sometimes and use worldmachine, but this offers your own style to it and design.

I only got one hour, then It is required for me to be in bed, for sleeping that is, so I will probably not have time checking out how this approach looks with displacements.

AS you said about tree L-system, mostly they do, but that is mostly if you think about them for tree creation process, if you go the route of distorting them to use in a map..thatīs another thing.


http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137417&d=1500478806

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137418&d=1500478820

erikals
07-19-2017, 10:20 AM
damn, perfect River bed... :)

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137419&d=1500481232

prometheus
07-19-2017, 11:11 AM
damn, perfect River bed... :)

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137419&d=1500481232

Cool...:)

thought it is interesting to look at river flow paths etc, how the sprout and branch out..many with similar patterns in certain areas and also across the whole world in similar ways, so it tends to dynamicly grow in patterns similar to L-system axioms, can be found in leaf structures as well I think amongst others.

so creating L-systems with appropiate axiom settings and rules, and furthermore distort it in some way of faking dynamic interaction, then blurring such path, further introduce even more undulations with turbulence distortions, and then smearing, pixelating etc..then you may get something..examples here is only incscape vectors felt feather and expanded a bit more on those filters, I didnīt use any tool to paint in anything, then exported to png and raised with displacemen so this displacement was pushed a bit more to not just yield a sharp ridge or river, but to actually expand a bit to give a terrain height map, so interesting considerign I didnīt paint any stroke at all, I did put in the lsystem with a lot more branches and variations than that first river style tree branch..

And crap..I am 10 minutes late for bed, but I managed to try this stuff and test displacement, further enhancements on blurring the actuall bitmap image can be done, either in inkscape or a paint program, or using softness and raise mip map strength, so for a first time try out..interesting.



http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137420&d=1500483953

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137421&d=1500483971

shrox
07-19-2017, 11:31 AM
Cool...:)

thought it is interesting to look at river flow paths etc, how the sprout and branch out..many with similar patterns in certain areas and also across the whole world in similar ways, so it tends to dynamicly grow in patterns similar to L-system axioms, can be found in leaf structures as well I think amongst others.

so creating L-systems with appropiate axiom settings and rules, and furthermore distort it in some way of faking dynamic interaction, then blurring such path, further introduce even more undulations with turbulence distortions, and then smearing, pixelating etc..then you may get something..examples here is only incscape vectors felt feather and expanded a bit more on those filters, I didnīt use any tool to paint in anything, then exported to png and raised with displacemen so this displacement was pushed a bit more to not just yield a sharp ridge or river, but to actually expand a bit to give a terrain height map, so interesting considerign I didnīt paint any stroke at all, I did put in the lsystem with a lot more branches and variations than that first river style tree branch..

And crap..I am 10 minutes late for bed, but I managed to try this stuff and test displacement, further enhancements on blurring the actuall bitmap image can be done, either in inkscape or a paint program, or using softness and raise mip map strength, so for a first time try out..interesting.



http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137420&d=1500483953

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137421&d=1500483971

Gimme. Gimmie it all now! Looks great!

prometheus
07-19-2017, 11:40 AM
Gimme. Gimmie it all now! Looks great!

Thanks..well, yeah..for a first time try out with this technique itīs ok, can only get better I think, if you got lightwave, then inkscape is all free, just takes a bit of time to learn, and ofcourse, I have had this process in my mind for a long time, and have looked at many flow patterns in google maps to get a sense of things, and to keep in mind, I didnīt do much changes in the L-system..used most settings there for the main branch, if one learns that and how the axiom and rules works, then you can make interesting patterns as main pattern.

Another option is to actually create the main patterns manually, either using the pen tools in inkscape and draw curves and lines where needed, or why not spin objects or use chamfer on geometry in lightwave, copy edges and paste back..this may create interesting shapes, and you could use various ways of printing that out, or use splotchdogs plugins to export svg to inkscape, then open the patterns there and filter in various ways, I have to check up on that first, expand your mind and simply brainstorm things..break rules :)

Another thing to mention, pd howler has some stuff for image creation techs..usefull for pushing images with erosion styled techniques I think, thoug I do not have it...there is threads around here for that.
World machine is also cool, but often for more larger vistas, nothing really beatīs itīs erosion results.

erikals
07-19-2017, 11:43 AM
by the way, does your InkScape take 4-Ever to launch?
(hm, just fired it up again, not that bad right now, 15 seconds, strange, seemed faster now...)

prometheus
07-19-2017, 11:50 AM
And further more, these branches and eventually any path, curve you draw in inkscape, I can still go in and edit the paths, with the filter effect active, this is a non destructive workflow than using pure bitmap approach.

prometheus
07-19-2017, 11:53 AM
by the way, does your InkScape take 4-Ever to launch?
(hm, just fired it up again, not that bad right now, 15 seconds, strange, seemed faster now...)

Not forever...and I got a new machine now, but ..yes, inkscape is a tad bit slow, so is krita..that is one of the conīs with these freewares, but if you do use them and do not have a system like mine perhaps, I would recomend ..do not use internet..or have a browser active, to help dealing with the memory, in fact..maybe do not use any other software running while tweaking...now, itīs not a problem for me, I can have 30x30x30 tabs opened in a browser :) lightwave and krita and inkscape running, but not recommended ..at some point something will slow down.

I am also slow trying to get to bed, enough now guys, this was an interesting excercise, I hope to be able to demonstrate more and record in the weekend, tomorrow I am working late, so nothing at that time.
Goodnight.

erikals
07-19-2017, 11:53 AM
yes, certainly can see this being useful, thanks for sharing! :)  saved! :)

Goodnight. i'm late too, for IKEA. :)

prometheus
07-19-2017, 12:01 PM
Bloody..he...Itīs hard when the brain wonīt go to sleep mode and is fireing off ideas.

teaser image, two types of filters on two types of paths, one L-system constructed, one just manually drawn, both are fully editable so you can change direction scale, continue to draw, add points etc..while the filter readjusts, quite cool..if your system can deal with inkscape that is.
The first filter to look for, that is the filter/distort/felt feather, then you got various settings to make undulations and noise on it as well.

To note off topic, you can use inkscape and export svg to blender, fully editable curves in blender as well as making them instant tubes within blenders curve system, and you can export to fusion as svg shapes for motion graphics, splotchdog has an svg importer for lightwave but it can not deal with auto drill, if you have made difference operations in inkscape, such a hole in a shape, that works in blender though...you do need to convert the object to a path though.



http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137422&d=1500487223
137422

erikals
07-19-2017, 12:05 PM
hope to see a video later on, did try InkScape, but didn't get anything close to the results you shared. only tested for 3min though...

but hey, need to run... [agh] :)

shrox
07-19-2017, 12:06 PM
Thanks..well, yeah..for a first time try out with this technique itīs ok, can only get better I think, if you got lightwave, then inkscape is all free, just takes a bit of time to learn, and ofcourse, I have had this process in my mind for a long time, and have looked at many flow patterns in google maps to get a sense of things, and to keep in mind, I didnīt do much changes in the L-system..used most settings there for the main branch, if one learns that and how the axiom and rules works, then you can make interesting patterns as main pattern.

Another option is to actually create the main patterns manually, either using the pen tools in inkscape and draw curves and lines where needed, or why not spin objects or use chamfer on geometry in lightwave, copy edges and paste back..this may create interesting shapes, and you could use various ways of printing that out, or use splotchdogs plugins to export svg to inkscape, then open the patterns there and filter in various ways, I have to check up on that first, expand your mind and simply brainstorm things..break rules :)

Another thing to mention, pd howler has some stuff for image creation techs..usefull for pushing images with erosion styled techniques I think, thoug I do not have it...there is threads around here for that.
World machine is also cool, but often for more larger vistas, nothing really beatīs itīs erosion results.

Oh, I can do it, just offering the best compliment, "gimmie!" If others want it, it's good.

prometheus
07-19-2017, 12:11 PM
hope to see a video later on, did try InkScape, but didn't get anything close to the results you shared. only tested for 3min though...

but hey, need to run... [agh] :)

He..yeah, I am stubborn, so if I have a sense it may be possible, I try and try..and take the time..works quite often, not all the time though, you may be able to save time if you do other things, and wait til the weekend, and I hope to show it.
Be careful and do not use to many orders in the L-system, itīs slow.

cheers.

- - - Updated - - -


Oh, I can do it, just offering the best compliment, "gimmie!" If others want it, it's good.

Appreciated..good to know that One may be on to something useful.

scott.newman.ct
07-19-2017, 02:03 PM
Thanks Prometheus and Erikals! Im learning so much from reading your posts.

On the erosion paths/shapes topic.... here is very quick and simple test using Advanced Lightning effect inside After Effects. I dont know if this is worth pursuing? Its obviously a bitmap based approach and its quite random, you cant edit individual branches. Just thought Id share it...

137423

erikals
07-19-2017, 03:35 PM
Happy to help! :)

the Lighting in After Effects is interesting, however many here move away from After Effects these days due to Subscription and cost.
alternatives are HitFilm / DaVinci Resolve etc.

you might be on to something though, i had a thought that maybe similar could be done in LightWave, perhaps via FiberFX (?)
i think there used to be a lightning plugin back in the days too.

another example is using DP Verdure.

erikals
07-19-2017, 05:04 PM
derailing a bit from the thread here, but as i was testing anyway... >


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkStGH8Dx74

scott.newman.ct
07-19-2017, 10:57 PM
Oh brilliant! I didnt know about the DP Verdure plugin. So glad I started following this discussion!

prometheus
07-20-2017, 12:35 AM
Thanks Prometheus and Erikals! Im learning so much from reading your posts.

On the erosion paths/shapes topic.... here is very quick and simple test using Advanced Lightning effect inside After Effects. I dont know if this is worth pursuing? Its obviously a bitmap based approach and its quite random, you cant edit individual branches. Just thought Id share it...

137423

That may work great I think, itīs just that you need to render them out in a couple of variations, and preferably at high resolution so you do not find yourself having made to low resolution in the end, so many variations perhaps..since they can not be edited afterwards, but they work to save out as images then post process it.

As erikals said, Davinci resolve, fusion etc is worth taking a look at.

apart from usin dp tree, (straight up or it will crash, rotate after creation) you can actually draw branches your self with the line pen tool, save out some parts, copy or reload back in save in to a branch library, then itīs easy to have an object with various own manually created branches, and using certain translate tool, you can snap branch origin to other branch ends for more complex branches.

Also, there is a free L-system plugin, (Germinator...https://www.lightwave3d.com/assets/plugins/entry/germinator/)
that can yield interesting shapes, I had a go at it some time ago, but got sidetracked when my computer went down, i will look in to it again, it requires feeding in some axiom variables, to bad I had the computer down and the presets are there, as an L-system for creating a mesh itīs not that good, since it doesnīt seem to be able to fuse branch ends properly as it would in houdini..as a mesh that is, but you can set it to use polychains or even skelegons, and simply skip the meshing since you may use it for other stuff.

prometheus
07-23-2017, 01:36 PM
Didnīt have time to record this weekend either, my father celebrated 91 years old, and I had also to install some things, tried out clothfx in lightwave then send to blender with mdd and paint weight maps for fire fluids, since there is no weight emission for turbulencefd in lightwave, in blender it worked out well though.

Back to topic, installed the old crackit plugin again, and I would recommend getting that, I will show later how to crack it to create almost instant rock pieces that is next to eachother,
the native fracture isnīt possible to do any good rock pieces from due to how itīs algorithm is cracking pieces up, so you need the crackit plugin, and use metaform plus (old legacy , zipped folder) further more itīs quite easy to send to layout and use bullet parts mode and let them drop down a terrain, note..freeze you displaced geometry before doing that (saved transform), and preferably at some lower level, at least so you got the main shape there, then you load that back and let the pieces fall and settle, so this way you get a crude placement of rock pieces based on physics, similar to advanced placement though itīs not as fast or cool, but itīs at no cost anyway except a little time.
So both creation of smaller rock shards, and distribute them with physics with bullet is quite easy to do, and you can load several various cracked pieces in there and run it again, note, you may want to save the finished cracked pieces as saved transformed, and then delete the originals that was dynamic, you have to reload (not replace) the saved transformed object of course.

I would also like to showcase using texture falloff minus values on the y-axis, and position values that are positive, and using world coordinates to let say have rocky textures on raised levels, and differnt layers on the ground levels all in one object, maybe next weekend

Oh..and using blender is so nice for rock sculpting, and when that is done, simplest way to texture it though you can do that in blender, just save to obj and open free sculptris and load a texture to paint with, save out texture when finished, it really has a nice painting texture brush ..the uvīs will be tiled, but thaīs ok for things like this, and sculptris has a slightly better flatten brush than blenders in my opinion, might be some setting that can be adjusted in blender, but otherwise you start off with making the main shape, add a procedural texture or some zbrush free bitmap texture, for procedurals I tend to go with voronoi with some negative value sliders and use the anchored drag method.

so first blender, then sculptris, then back to lightwave modeler again..why? apart from final scenes, go and get plg simplify mesh (though the main site is down but erikals have the plugins somewhere) and preferably use 64 bit, simplify mesh can reduce the huge sculpt poly amount quite well with the uvīs intact, so from 400 000 sculpt to maybe 3000 polys ..a boulder rock can still look good, I tried blenders reduce mesh, but it screws up the uvīs, not sure about remesher, that might be working though...otherwise plg simplify mesh is great, Ivé taken photogrammetry objects from sketcfab and reduced them with good results.

erikals
07-23-2017, 01:49 PM
Happy 91'th Birthday! :king:
that's Awesome.  :)


using blender is so nice for rock sculpting,
yeah, might have to look into Blender more, unless i go the 3DCoat route...
+need to look into WorldMachine and PhotoScan a bit more.

(new plg plugin download location > http://www.pixsim.co.uk/downloads/PLG_UV_Tools.zip)

----------

looking forward to videos!   :)

prometheus
07-23-2017, 03:47 PM
Happy 91'th Birthday! :king:
that's Awesome.  :)


yeah, might have to look into Blender more, unless i go the 3DCoat route...
+need to look into WorldMachine and PhotoScan a bit more.

(new plg plugin download location > http://www.pixsim.co.uk/downloads/PLG_UV_Tools.zip)

----------

looking forward to videos!   :)


sculpting is quite easy in blender, without actually having to wrestle the interface in my opinion, and with ambient occlusion it helps attenuate cavities etc, also valuable is using the multiresolution modifier while sculpting, so you can jump back and forth between lower res and higher res, thereīs even an apply base, which modifies the base mesh to conform to the higher resolution mesh, in case you would need that when going back to a lower mesh in lightwave for instance.
the stroke mode anchored is probably what you would use when dragging with a texture bitmap or with a procedural texture, so that is what you can drag on in several layers so you get your rocky cracks and displacements, strokes with normal brush or clay is useful and flatten and peak etc when adding detail or flatten areas, havenīt actually worked with texture pain in blender ..so thatīs why I simply throwed it to sculptris where I know how to work it without much fuzz, then back to lightwave and use plg simplify mesh to reduce the rock piece.

The dynatopo is great as well, especially with the snake hook, so you can simply draw up rock pillars from a divided ground, with various pixel size that determines the mesh resolution, and if you turn the strenght off, you can paint brush reduce or increase mesh resolution without deforming it, so on ground areas you simply paint in lower res, and in areas where you may need more you decrease the pixel size of the dynatopo brush to get higher detailed resolution mesh, similar to sculptris in that way, but I probably would say blender is better on that.

You can also download a free addon to paint in a mask and extract mesh from that, similar to zbrush mesh extract.

TurbulenceFD is great in itīs way, but itīs still not getting over those obstacles Ivé been ranting about for years, I have asked about that in jawset forums, but itīs dead calm in there nowaday..so thus I am evaluating the blender fire and smoke, and since it has those featurs of weight paint and weight fluid emission which letsīme just draw areas on a cloth to emitt fluid fire from, and fire and smoke in the open gl at the same time, turbulenceFD lacks those features, so considering turbulenceFD is to pay for, and blender free...I need to see some things happening in there, unfortunately I think turbulenceFD has halted, maybe itīs partly the long next lightwave development to blame.

erikals
07-23-2017, 04:38 PM
I think turbulenceFD has halted, maybe itīs partly the long next lightwave development to blame.
i think that is a a bit yes and no, as far as i recall he did make Turbulence work in Next,
Turbulence development however has been slow.

he started looking into water fluids, but that was 5 years ago or so.
after some time he gave that up i think. he mentioned it was harder to do than anticipated.

Blender is great, even though the workflow is dumb at times.

Sculptris is alright, but i don't see the use as Blender is free and often better.

prometheus
07-23-2017, 05:38 PM
i think that is a a bit yes and no, as far as i recall he did make Turbulence work in Next,
Turbulence development however has been slow.

he started looking into water fluids, but that was 5 years ago or so.
after some time he gave that up i think. he mentioned it was harder to do than anticipated.

Blender is great, even though the workflow is dumb at times.

Sculptris is alright, but i don't see the use as Blender is free and often better.

Still looking for particle advection, which he said wasnīt possible due to the sdk in lightwave, might have changed in the next version, though my questions on it remains unanswered, maybe due to NDA.
Firelight is crashing, and weight paint he said one time was in the plans, but I guess that have to wait as well, only smoke Or fire in the openGL, and no multiscattering in the VPR (that may change with the new VPR)
and the wind forces are made up by using other objects as fluid emitters but only using the force, this means itīs special dedicated to only work with the fluids, it can not work with any other dynamics, unlike blenders wind forces etc, which will push other stuff as well as actually affecting the fluids, and together with weight paint and both fire and smoke in the openGL, itīs a bit more interesting to work with..Apart from that the setup with node materials is a bit of a pain to do compared to how turbulenceFD handles the volumetric shading.

Sculptris I only mostly use for texture painting, almost everything else ..blender can do mostly better.

AmigaNewTek
11-12-2017, 01:20 PM
Sorry if i "deserts" the thread soon after opened. Captured by some business.

Thank you for the many replies. I will look at the posts carefully.

AmigaNewTek
11-15-2017, 08:15 AM
Now would be nice to add some Heatwave in the scene.

Any info?

prometheus
11-15-2017, 10:30 AM
Now would be nice to add some Heatwave in the scene.

Any info?

nativly probably some procedural animated texture on a transparent, but refractive front plate.

old plugins(commercial)...ogo taiki, http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~pq1a-ogs/air.mpg
Old worley taft pluing (commercial) has a heatwave function built in...
https://www.lightwave3d.com/assets/plugins/entry/taft/

We also require you to post some images of the desert scene :D

AmigaNewTek
11-18-2017, 11:50 AM
We also require you to post some images of the desert scene :D

:)

I'm not so expert. I 've got some scene file from 5parky777 and some other scene from erikalst on youtube. But i will post the final render

Luc_Feri
11-18-2017, 12:01 PM
Here's an old trick that I came up with a few years back that you can use to place instanced rocks, trees and other items to place on your terrain using a point source for Layout instances generator.

138614

prometheus
11-18-2017, 12:40 PM
Here's an old trick that I came up with a few years back that you can use to place instanced rocks, trees and other items to place on your terrain using a point source for Layout instances generator.

138614

Why not use weigh maps directly? either procedural directly in layout, or procedural made in modeler, or paint the areas in in modeler?
or just use particles in layout and give them birth rate procedural texture, you can also "freeze particles" with particle2partigon, so you can furter tweak the points if needed....
Of course, neither method is really wrong...depends on what you may need etc.

AmigaNewTek
11-18-2017, 12:40 PM
Interesting. Thank you

prometheus
11-18-2017, 12:42 PM
:)

I'm not so expert. I 've got some scene file from 5parky777 and some other scene from erikalst on youtube. But i will post the final render

Itīs not required to be an expert, you can be a newbie creating beginner level or not, the forums here to help out giving advice, not primarely to judge what level or how your art is from your first fiddlings...no shame, just do it :)
itīs more likely you may be able to boost your level faster when getting advice from what you currently got, rather than being scared from posting and not getting feedback.

Luc_Feri
11-19-2017, 06:21 AM
Why not use weigh maps directly? either procedural directly in layout, or procedural made in modeler, or paint the areas in in modeler?
or just use particles in layout and give them birth rate procedural texture, you can also "freeze particles" with particle2partigon, so you can furter tweak the points if needed....
Of course, neither method is really wrong...depends on what you may need etc.

Always plenty of options to get the job done. Your right, weight maps would work for sure. That other particle thing you suggested and birth rates etc, WHY?

Why make the job even that complicated? My way is quick and dirty and can be done under 1 min of work time for the particle source data for the instances.

prometheus
11-19-2017, 06:43 AM
Always plenty of options to get the job done. Your right, weight maps would work for sure. That other particle thing you suggested and birth rates etc, WHY?

Why make the job even that complicated? My way is quick and dirty and can be done under 1 min of work time for the particle source data for the instances.

it doesnīt take much longer time to use particles, and with your method you are fixed with those points and have to redo it if you want to change placement and amount.

The particles isnīt complicated..If you are used to work with them, it offers a way form me to constantly change the particles til I am satisied, with points it becomes fixed in point amount, and how you distribute them..without the option of going back and change it, without doing it from scratch again.
Besides, I actually think your way of using points and then do heatshrinking is more complicated than actually just use weight maps, procedural textures or a simple texture to distribute the instances.

with particles I can as I said use non destructivly as long as I havenīt converted them to points through particle2points, both in amount of instances and in placement of them.

with weight maps you define the areas that are needed, and you can go from that since you do not need any other areas for them to be placed ..right, and you can create additional weightmaps to distribute other types of rocks that may be smaller and may be distributed differently because of that, or trees.

So I think the approach of using maps is a bit more controllable to get a specified nature looking effect than just points.

Going complicated, if you do not have worleys advanced placement that is, you can very well just use bullet and let some dynamics do the job, that will take a bit of extra time to calculate though.
Another way is to use particles dynamicly with old hard fx and let particles collision flow particles downhill. so it kind of gives a more natural look to how rocks may actually have rolled down slopes and gathered next to a cliff wall etc, then use the instancing system on that for boulders, now that would not be much of use for tree instancing since that is not how trees grow based on any dynamics like that, here it is better to use weight maps or gradients to set where the sun may
create good soil for growth.

Luc_Feri
11-19-2017, 06:54 AM
Thanks for the detailed explanation Prom, that actually sounds a bit more flexible than it originally sounded when you first mentioned it and cool. :D

My way is very quick and dirty, I disagree it is complicated though, a quick spray, select points and heat shrink. They are fixed as you say but the fact that you can do more or less points again and again very quickly may even be quicker than press calculate on the simulations, in fact I'm sure it is.

AmigaNewTek
11-19-2017, 01:13 PM
I tried using an example found in this very forum, using hypervoxel with turbolence texture, refraction and so on... but i can't see the effect of the heatwave :(

prometheus
11-19-2017, 01:37 PM
I tried using an example found in this very forum, using hypervoxel with turbolence texture, refraction and so on... but i can't see the effect of the heatwave :(

Probably much easier to use a simple polyplate instead, so much that needs consideration with hypervoxels, unless you are using particles for jet exhaust, I would suggest use a simple poly geometry plate in front of the camera, you can parent it to the camera as well.

AmigaNewTek
11-19-2017, 01:48 PM
Probably much easier to use a simple polyplate instead, so much that needs consideration with hypervoxels, unless you are using particles for jet exhaust, I would suggest use a simple poly geometry plate in front of the camera, you can parent it to the camera as well.

OK, i will try as suggested.

Thank you

prometheus
11-19-2017, 03:47 PM
OK, i will try as suggested.

Thank you


not a very good example..cause you can probably not distinguish the refraction on the displacement terrain, but check the settings..
here I just added a box at aproximately the same size as the terrain, 1000x1000x1000, set transparency to 1000, now..it is in the refraction channel you should add a procedural, preferably one animatable, like smokey perhaps, or animate manually with null references, the refraction could also be increased, what is important is also that you check world coordninates for the procedural texture..


http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138630&d=1511131603

vonpietro
11-20-2017, 12:31 AM
dont forget the all mighty cactus

i was just at a botanical gardens -

these are otherworldy

138633

gerry_g
11-20-2017, 04:16 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUNBSaesrX4

I prefer the scatter points in modeller and heat shrink method, I find it gives me more control and build up a scene using many layers, it also means I can move points to stop them going through objects that I want left alone

Gungho3D
11-20-2017, 08:20 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUNBSaesrX4

I prefer the scatter points in modeller and heat shrink method, I find it gives me more control and build up a scene using many layers, it also means I can move points to stop them going through objects that I want left alone

Gerry - that is absolutely beautiful visually

Luc_Feri
11-21-2017, 01:27 PM
Yeah nice one Gerry!! :D

Marander
11-21-2017, 01:30 PM
Great work Gerry! Very nice composition and smart how you blend the different layers of rock and vegetation.

Luc_Feri
11-21-2017, 01:32 PM
Great work Gerry! Very nice composition and smart how you blend the different layers of rock and vegetation.

I loved that transition too!!!

gerry_g
11-21-2017, 05:40 PM
Thank you, did not mean to hijack thread, just wanted to show a disciplined build up of multi separate layers based of of points in one instance generator works better than a multi layers based off of a surface or ground plane. If you use a surface to generate the instances every new layer you add displaces the others so everything is constantly moving around, as the total quantity value is for all layers not just the one you are working on, the points method is more fixed and controllable and each layer can be regulated separately by the percentage cover value (which is per layer), also if you alter the sub patch resolution when using the surface method the instances will dynamically adjust to the new resolution and move with it, this also means if you set the sub patch display resolution to one value and the render resolution to another what you see in in the viewport will not be the same as what you see in the render.

gerry_g
11-22-2017, 04:48 AM
138648

These are supplied fully textured and are free, the tree stumps look great, will need to set up an account though, grass is only supplied as json file and needs the loader to work, there is a Blender loader but no Lightwave version

https://megascans.se

prometheus
11-23-2017, 11:01 AM
thanks for heads up on those gerry, the breakdown looks great as well.

AmigaNewTek
02-14-2018, 01:08 PM
@prometheus

Hi, this is a simple render. No heatwaves :-(

I tried to attach a plate in fron of the camera with the setting related to the refraction index as suggested here.
I didn't had good results.

140112

jwiede
02-14-2018, 01:45 PM
@prometheus

tried to attach a plate in fron of the camera with the setting related to the refraction index as suggested here.
I didn't had good results.

140112

The trick is to make sure the "range" of the noise used to modify the refraction is quite small, even a total range of 0.3 (f.e. IOR 1.00-1.30) will have a fairly strong visible effect. The other issue is that you'll want to animate the texture itself so it's moving slightly X+ over time, to replicate the upward motion of the heatwaves.

Worley's Heatwave plugin was _GREAT_ for this, a real shame it's no longer available. Are you on Mac or PC, and what LW version? Might have a solution if on PC, depending on LW version.

sadkkf
02-17-2018, 01:42 PM
138648

These are supplied fully textured and are free, the tree stumps look great, will need to set up an account though, grass is only supplied as json file and needs the loader to work, there is a Blender loader but no Lightwave version

https://megascans.se

Thanks for this! I sometimes forget about Megascans.

I am having a problem, though. When I load the fbx of the tree chunks, all the objects are centered and don't align with the UV. What am I missing?

gerry_g
02-17-2018, 02:45 PM
all objects will be centred or at 0.0.0, this is normal the pivot must be centred to the object and at world centre facing down the Z axis, textures line up here (in the Texture Editor dialogue choose UV as type, 'unnamed' as UVMap and 'Dbrs wood_chunks_T' as Image), this is how thing work regards instancing, each mesh or prototype in its own layer ready to be called up and distributed by the instances

sadkkf
02-18-2018, 07:52 AM
all objects will be centred or at 0.0.0, this is normal the pivot must be centred to the object and at world centre facing down the Z axis, textures line up here (in the Texture Editor dialogue choose UV as type, 'unnamed' as UVMap and 'Dbrs wood_chunks_T' as Image), this is how thing work regards instancing, each mesh or prototype in its own layer ready to be called up and distributed by the instances

I swear I tried that and it didn't work the first time. Today, it does. Well....thanks.