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gar26lw
07-15-2017, 09:52 PM
Was reading this. This is how you communicate well via a blog.

https://blogs.unity3d.com

https://blogs.unity3d.com/2017/07/11/introducing-unity-2017/

Note the feedback links to forum regarding new and experimental features, the option to participate in the beta if you wish.

Great stuff.

Btw unity 2017.1 has some awesome stuff in it. I love how they have a roadmap too and mention in it when items are going to take longer to dev. Collaborate was a long time in beta, for example.
Nested prefabs are sorely needed and years to get right but at least you know it's being worked on, just taking a lot longer than expected.

TreyX
07-15-2017, 09:59 PM
i'm not obsessed about LightWave "Next" updates, as I just enjoy the software NOW, and will be happy when a new version is unveiled whenever all the bugs are worked out and the app is clean and error-free (altho i hope they don't call it "LightWave Next", as that naming convention is already dated; i worked on marketing & UI design for a software project 5 years ago that named it's upgrade ".Next", so been there, done that...).

NewTek's site IS in desperate need of an upgrade, tho. the site is very dated, and an outdated online presence has a negative influence on product perception and relevance in such a competitive market. if you look at every other top level app competitor, there is a significant edge in their PR and marketing (Maxon, Autodesk, etc.). even their lightwave demo video here uses a bad scene from caprica(?) as the video screenshot -- obsolete and uninspiring.

also, i think NewTek needs to stop devaluing their product price and just stick with the $995. the software is WORTH $995 and a helluva lot more, imho (i'd rather see it back up to $1295 for a new seat, while keeping the upgrades at $500). the combination of a myspace-style website and price slashing is demoralizing, and diminishes an excellent product while placing them at the novice end of the 3D app pricing spectrum @ $695. it's about pride, excellence and quality. LW has the latter two, but is suffering greatly in the pride category. if NT put some money into their marketing and had an elegant, contemporary site, first-time buyers would actually see a $995 or higher price point as a great deal and worth the investment. the impression now is of buying a product from the clearance isle at a factory warehouse store...

Surrealist.
07-15-2017, 10:40 PM
Great.

However regarding LightWave, we already know about all of this. We know what is happening, what they are working on, and we know it is taking longer than expected.

I agree Unity and Unreal and even other apps do a great job at communicating.

But I think we a beating a dead horse to ask LW 3D Group to be like another development company. (and there can be no other reason to post such a thread)

There is no doubt a disparity here. But this is just as it is. And it won't change. Why do you assume they don't already know how all of these companies operate?

And so before you quote me and go on some diatribe about marketing or business practices and all of the rest of that rot. I have already considered this in my response.

And don't feel the need to hash all of that over again. And again. And again.

I think it is time to simply accept things as they are. And move on.

Moderator should simply close this thread now. It has already been discussed endlessly.

gar26lw
07-15-2017, 10:51 PM
Of course, you are entitled to your opinion but I think that there are always companies and ways of doing things that are worth looking at and learning from.

I think the unity blog and the way unity is treating and communicating with its customers is worth looking at.

Adapt or die.

unity's transparent dev and good communication was a big reason for our company picking it up and dumping previous tools. I'm not looking to troll or whatever it is. Just pointing out that it is worth reading, thinking about and applying to an alternate approach in the future.

For example, perhaps they should amagamate the newsletter and blog like unity and then have more frequent posts so people feel connected and there is not so much focus on zero communication.

I'm trying to help. Of course, cannot make anyone do anything. Up to them.
Either way one approach is likely better than the other. Let's see which one :)

ncr100
07-15-2017, 11:08 PM
LW3DG's approach seems reasonable to me. Unity has more resources for production.

One thing I thought I've seen with past Unity betas is explicit statements like "no promises about some of these features - we will remove them from the upcoming release if we're not happy with them when it comes time to make a new release." gar26lw talks about this, with the roadmap being adjusted in those cases. Releases still come out, but with fewer or more features than originally appeared in the roadmap.

I speculate the reality with LW3D is one where the feature count versus LW developer + release manager headcount is too lop-sided, making it impossible seeming to release betas to large groups. E.g. first-draft beta features will generate lots of user feedback, demanding responses. Then the dev's time will be consumed with handling feedback, putting timely product release at risk. Therefore decision to have no large beta program, only what has leaked: a small private beta for select plugin developers / SDK integrators.

We could ask for more demos of explicitly announced features, specific questions may be asked. Lino seems to do passion project demos.

(opinions are my own)

Surrealist.
07-15-2017, 11:13 PM
Of course, you are entitled to your opinion but I think that there are always companies and ways of doing things that are worth looking at and learning from.

I think the unity blog and the way unity is treating and communicating with its customers is worth looking at.

Adapt or die.

unity's transparent dev and good communication was a big reason for our company picking it up and dumping previous tools. I'm not looking to troll or whatever it is. Just pointing out that it is worth reading, thinking about and applying to an alternate approach in the future.

For example, perhaps they should amagamate the newsletter and blog like unity and then have more frequent posts so people feel connected and there is not so much focus on zero communication.

I'm trying to help. Of course, cannot make anyone do anything. Up to them.
Either way one approach is likely better than the other. Let's see which one :)

Fair enough. Even though fights will break out, maybe something will sink in this time. They did decide to do a blog when we were screaming for more communication. Carry on. :)

50one
07-16-2017, 02:59 AM
Cannot be bothered to state the obvious and beat the dead horse even more.

The point of no return has been reached, if you guys think that they can somehow manage to stay afloat in today's world then you need reality check.

Yes, there might be some hype following the release, but it's to little too late and even if that will give them some traction they'll be struggling again in few months time as they did nothing to prove otherwise, understaffed, outnumbered, no competitive edge, same ol' software with quite bad UX(split workflow) and not so great interoperability with other industry standard tools.

gar26lw
07-16-2017, 04:16 AM
I don't completely agree with that. I think the ux just needs tweaking, interoperability just needs an update, competitive edge can come from keep it simple workflow which yields really good results, like the old lw before we needed a good update.
The potential is there but I really wish they would embrace some of the strategies that others employ and really listen to the users, embrace the feedback, ask for input and direction.
I also wish they would bring out bug fixes and updates to some parts of the app for up to date interoperability while we wait for new tools. Fbx 2016 for example. Why wait for next?

Surrealist.
07-16-2017, 05:25 AM
Here we go....

gar26lw
07-16-2017, 06:20 AM
Hehe.. yep. Maybe :)

TreyX
07-16-2017, 08:42 AM
Cannot be bothered to state the obvious and beat the dead horse even more.

The point of no return has been reached, if you guys think that they can somehow manage to stay afloat in today's world then you need reality check.

Yes, there might be some hype following the release, but it's to little too late and even if that will give them some traction they'll be struggling again in few months time as they did nothing to prove otherwise, understaffed, outnumbered, no competitive edge, same ol' software with quite bad UX(split workflow) and not so great interoperability with other industry standard tools.

not. LW is still an excellent tool that produces highly professional results. and, we're not sucked into the subscription and maintenance bs that is a financial drain and locks you out of your tool should you decide not to be held hostage to monthly or yearly payments. i am actually beefing up my seat considerably at the moment with plugins and extensions, as well as standalone apps. LW for me is a tool i love, that works for me, and is incredibly affordable. as i pointed out in a post above, NT just needs to update their marketing & PR (desperately). but i truly enjoy the fact that i own this seat lock, stock and barrel. you just don't get that much anymore, and to me, that means a lot. and plus, it generates an incredible ROI. as a studio owner and businessman, it is a proven moneymaker. it is what you make it -- either an app you leave on the shelf gathering dust, or a lean, mean productivity machine that you can customize and polish. just my two coins.

bazsa73
07-16-2017, 09:13 AM
In the office we use all kind of apps, Houdini, Max, LW, C4D, ZBrush. Everybody complains about his own app.

prometheus
07-16-2017, 09:21 AM
Cannot be bothered to state the obvious and beat the dead horse even more.

The point of no return has been reached, if you guys think that they can somehow manage to stay afloat in today's world then you need reality check.

Yes, there might be some hype following the release, but it's to little too late and even if that will give them some traction they'll be struggling again in few months time as they did nothing to prove otherwise, understaffed, outnumbered, no competitive edge, same ol' software with quite bad UX(split workflow) and not so great interoperability with other industry standard tools.


To me there are mostly two three main issues with the UI, mainly that you can not scale three axis values at once as you can in blender and in houdini, itīs just ridiculous annoying having to enter same value three times jumping down for each axis value.
Then there is the non full scalable windows, and the fact you can not dock, though it may be acceptable with some windows manager docking of windows I think.
Thoug the UI is important in terms how it appeals and yield proper moderd design rumours, the lightwave team I think ...Is making their priorities right under current circumstances, we now that new tech and many renders have advanced so much since
fprime made itīs debut and at that time being unique, so was almost VPR, but as it is..it doesnīt stand a chance unless the render engine meets more demands of PBR and unless the software can performe with huge scenes and polys, so that is prio 1 and they are doing that, including a new render engine, that will make VPR and final render look the same..very important.

They also implemented new volumetrics tool, now these things arenīt bad..the problem is that we may want a bit more, or should I say most of us actually do want much more.

So After that comes introduction of modeling tools which I had hopes for but will not, and I can understand that frustration of still ol software UI look, and split app..but there is one thing to consider too, namely how fast they will release a point update after the initial release, and if they are able to dare and actually communicate that in advance, probably not, understand me correct..I am..will be dissapointed over the lack of new modeling tools and only some array or some other few minor tools in there after they said the new core tools in modeler was the tip of the iceberg..many years ago.

But I think itīs quite meaningless to state"itīs too late" you can only speculate on it without really knowing much about it, it just adds fuel to a spreading fire of negative rumours, itīs not like you sit with everything in hindsight clear for you, itīs your frustration that speaks.

hrgiger
07-16-2017, 09:30 AM
not. LW is still an excellent tool that produces highly professional results. and, we're not sucked into the subscription and maintenance bs that is a financial drain and locks you out of your tool should you decide not to be held hostage to monthly or yearly payments.

Just curious but I see people are always quick to point out how inexpensive LightWave is and how you're not held hostage to monthly or yearly payments but do you ever think about what the development side of the equation actually requires? It has been almost 3 years now since LW3DG has released a version where they might have gotten their last focused influx of revenue. Do you think that LW3DG can live off this model indefinitely? I mean, you have to realize that NT's video business is likely supporting LW3DG in this long period of very few people upgrading to a new version?

I'm not in support of subscription only models like Adobe or Autodesk but there is a need for subscription in this business and it makes absolute sense for mid to larger size studios that need to add and remove employees as business needs call for. This year, Modo 11 offered both subscription and maintenance for people who want to continue their perpetual license and to me this strikes the right balance because its a mutually beneficial arrangement between customer and developer. We get a discount on our perpetual license and they get regular annual income. How that changes in the future is a whole other discussion entirely but it just makes me wonder if people who are singing the benefits of cheap LightWave, actually stop to consider the costs associated with paying developers to develop and R + D a product to market?

Everyone wants LW3DG to market the product better, want them to be more communicative, develop features that would bring LW to a more competitive level.... But are you going to complain if they have to raise the cost of LW to do it? LightWave is too cheap in my opinion. And not only does it make it look cheap in the market, but I doubt its generating enough revenue for them to even break even.

prometheus
07-16-2017, 09:42 AM
I am all for a subscribtion alternative, but Never...Never stray away from at the same time offering the perpetual license, suck the marrow out of all possibilites, nothing wrong with that.

I would also like it to look more competitive, one thing would be to properly bundle and cooperate even more with things like jawsets fluids and the alikes, so you could offer a more complete bundled version that is to a price less than buying lightwave then turbulenceFD, that would market Lighwave as more complete but still at a good price, though that is also in the hands of the third party developers, who actually may not agree to such model.

Michael

jperk
07-16-2017, 10:06 AM
Prometheus I'm with you on that. I don't care what Newtek does so long as they offer a perpetual license for "Next." Rental software is fine, unless it's the only option to use the software. If Newtek follows in Autodesk's footsteps, then I'm out.

I'm looking to upgrade to commercial license w/ LW at some point. I could do it now with the 2015 version, but everyone here is telling me to wait.

prometheus
07-16-2017, 10:12 AM
Prometheus I'm with you on that. I don't care what Newtek does so long as they offer a perpetual license for "Next." Rental software is fine, unless it's the only option to use the software. If Newtek follows in Autodesk's footsteps, then I'm out.

I'm looking to upgrade to commercial license w/ LW at some point. I could do it now with the 2015 version, but everyone here is telling me to wait.

Yaa..there is a problem in a nuthshell, not many of us know where and when to wait, update, invest...that is a strain the lightwave team puts on us when not communicating enough about possible release dates, but with some caution taken to what they may have indicated, maybe linos comments that it would be close, I would also suggest to wait and see how it goes with the new version coming out with maybe a possible expectation of two three months, if later than that, I would probably just drop the waiting and put Lightwave investments on hold and work with what you got, and also work with freeware as blender.

The only question is if you update to 2015, would that put yourself in getting the next lightwave version much cheaper?
I would also suggest you carefully read through All the blogs for the next lightwave version.

mind you, depending on quality and speed and usage for you, blender can offer native fire and smoke that in some ways surpasses turbulenceFD in my opinion, and that is 479 usd more than blenders which wonīt cost you anything than learning and time, and maybe some piftalls on large scale projects, since Lightwave3d next version is under development and halting, it seems jascha that does turbulenceFD has been slowing down in that development as well, and I have asked for things like weight fluid emission, particle advection etc..for years, but obviously he can not either discuss or do that much until the next lightwave release is there, so if it werenīt for that I am starting to get the hang of the fire and smoke now in blender, I might have seen turbulenceFD as the only option...but I really miss weight paint and fluid emission and both fire and smoke opengl..which blender actually have, and apart from that..the forces is more advanced and reacts on other parts as well..which turbulenceFD doesnt.

AS for Lightwaveīs greatness, easy to work with mostly..and fast, great quality, and the Best stage there is to set up a scene in my opinion, that said..some lacking areas where you would want modeling to correct and add things In layout context.

And as far as blender performance, I donīt think it can compare to what Layout can swallow and deal with in huge scenes, though blenders latest version may have overcome that..donīt know yet, then again, we will probably see an even greater perfomance in the next lightwave.

Surrealist.
07-16-2017, 10:18 AM
I'm looking to upgrade to commercial license w/ LW at some point. I could do it now with the 2015 version, but everyone here is telling me to wait.

Yeah man, milk that student status as long as you can - and are not working commercially. There will come a time my son when you look on these simpler times with nostalgia. :D

Back before the days when everything went rental....;)

jperk
07-16-2017, 10:24 AM
The only question is if you update to 2015, would that put yourself in getting the next lightwave version much cheaper?
I would also suggest you carefully read through All the blogs for the next lightwave version.

.

Well the way Newtek stands on this as of now, you can upgrade to commercial at the same upgrade price a commercial user would pay. I'm using 2015 educational so I'd pay whatever the upgrade price is right now. However, they stated back in 2015 that current users of version 2015 will be able to upgrade at $295. (source: http://www.cgchannel.com/2015/09/newtek-announces-new-lightwave-pricing/). Not sure if Newtek are still going by this given that it's been a little over 2yrs since they confirmed this.

prometheus
07-16-2017, 10:25 AM
Prometheus I'm with you on that. I don't care what Newtek does so long as they offer a perpetual license for "Next." Rental software is fine, unless it's the only option to use the software. If Newtek follows in Autodesk's footsteps, then I'm out.

I'm looking to upgrade to commercial license w/ LW at some point. I could do it now with the 2015 version, but everyone here is telling me to wait.

By the way...what would be your main focus, or possible future target when it comes to 3d, modeling? for games, film characters? environments? vfx particles ..fluids, dynamics etc?

jperk
07-16-2017, 10:25 AM
The only question is if you update to 2015, would that put yourself in getting the next lightwave version much cheaper?
I would also suggest you carefully read through All the blogs for the next lightwave version.

.

Well the way Newtek stands on this as of now, you can upgrade to commercial at the same upgrade price a commercial user would pay. I'm using 2015 educational so I'd pay whatever the upgrade price is right now. However, they stated back in 2015 that current users of version 2015 will be able to upgrade at $295. (source: http://www.cgchannel.com/2015/09/newtek-announces-new-lightwave-pricing/). Not sure if Newtek are still going by this given that it's been a little over 2yrs since confirming.

Surrealist.
07-16-2017, 10:31 AM
They have not make any announcements on that. And they were fairly emphatic about the change at that time. In fact it was discussion over the new pricing (with out a look at the next version) that eventually led to the blog. :)

It was a fairly big deal. I can't imagine them changing it. So I'd say you're good. :)

prometheus
07-16-2017, 10:36 AM
when we got 2015, they had a special deal around that christmas I think, good pricing, and we were offered a bundle with chronosculpt and nevron motion..so that was an easy choice at that time, though I thought it lacked features a lot.
Sad part is that Ivé never gotten around trying out chronosculpt much, and havenīt even touched nevron motion(maybe should sell it..though higly doubtful that would be possible)...part of that may be due to the lack of information around proper hardware that still works and should be used with nevron motion, and lack of updates as well.

TreyX
07-16-2017, 10:42 AM
Just curious but I see people are always quick to point out how inexpensive LightWave is and how you're not held hostage to monthly or yearly payments but do you ever think about what the development side of the equation actually requires? It has been almost 3 years now since LW3DG has released a version where they might have gotten their last focused influx of revenue. Do you think that LW3DG can live off this model indefinitely? I mean, you have to realize that NT's video business is likely supporting LW3DG in this long period of very few people upgrading to a new version?

I'm not in support of subscription only models like Adobe or Autodesk but there is a need for subscription in this business and it makes absolute sense for mid to larger size studios that need to add and remove employees as business needs call for. This year, Modo 11 offered both subscription and maintenance for people who want to continue their perpetual license and to me this strikes the right balance because its a mutually beneficial arrangement between customer and developer. We get a discount on our perpetual license and they get regular annual income. How that changes in the future is a whole other discussion entirely but it just makes me wonder if people who are singing the benefits of cheap LightWave, actually stop to consider the costs associated with paying developers to develop and R + D a product to market?

Everyone wants LW3DG to market the product better, want them to be more communicative, develop features that would bring LW to a more competitive level.... But are you going to complain if they have to raise the cost of LW to do it? LightWave is too cheap in my opinion. And not only does it make it look cheap in the market, but I doubt its generating enough revenue for them to even break even.

agreed. there is a helluva lot of talent, time, effort and resources devoted to software creation. some of my clients are in this field, and i have a deep respect for them and what it takes to do a good job. i'm a very patient guy --- i have no problem waiting 2 years for a solid and fully functional update to LW. in the meantime, it's working for me NOW and bringing in an excellent ROI. it's stable, efficient, robust and a workhorse. i'm just grateful that NT has stayed in the game with LW -- it was the first 3D app i ever used, and is still my powerhouse 22+ years later. gotta love it! :yingyang:

jperk
07-16-2017, 10:55 AM
agreed.

I disagree. Newtek's pricing for LW is roughly similar to Pixologic's Zbrush 4R8, which is doing quite well from what I am aware of. And it's pretty relevant. I think Newtek and Pixologic are doing the right thing in providing alternatives. Zbrush and LW have been used in commercial production and I just don't see that changing. The pricing is fair.

TreyX
07-16-2017, 11:02 AM
I disagree. Newtek's pricing for LW is roughly similar to Pixologic's Zbrush 4R8, which is doing quite well from what I am aware of. And it's pretty relevant. I think Newtek and Pixologic are doing the right thing in providing alternatives. Zbrush and LW have been used in commercial production and I just don't see that changing. The pricing is fair.

except ZBrush is primarily a sculpting app. LW is an animation powerhouse. big difference. Z is something i'll use to incorporate into my LW pipeline. if i was just a modeler/sculptor, that would be sufficient. but i'm a generalist, and trying to compare LW to Z is like comparing a cinder block to a mansion.

jperk
07-16-2017, 11:24 AM
except ZBrush is primarily a sculpting app. LW is an animation powerhouse. big difference. Z is something i'll use to incorporate into my LW pipeline. if i was just a modeler/sculptor, that would be sufficient. but i'm a generalist, and trying to compare LW to Z is like comparing a cinder block to a mansion.

Yes, I'm aware of the differences between LW and Zbrush. The point I was trying to make is that both software have been used in commercial productions. I am only comparing in that aspect. LW+ZB is the cheaper, yet effective alternative to Maya+Mudbox. Especially since LW+ZB is more affordable, yet can still produce the same results as Autodesk products (3DS Max, AutoCad, Maya, Mudbox). Again, the point I'm trying to make is that Newtek pricing is fine. Pixologic is doing a similar pricing module. It is working fine.

Wickedpup
07-16-2017, 12:39 PM
You are blatantly ignoring the fact that Pixologic has handed out free updates only since....I can honestly not remember how far back. While LWG has not. So saying they are doing a similar pricing module is a gross exaggeration.

jwiede
07-16-2017, 12:57 PM
You are blatantly ignoring the fact that Pixologic has handed out free updates

I believe you meant "free upgrades" -- your point stands that LW's pricing model is very different from ZBrush's pricing model for that reason.

jperk
07-16-2017, 01:24 PM
You are blatantly ignoring the fact that Pixologic has handed out free updates only since....I can honestly not remember how far back. While LWG has not. So saying they are doing a similar pricing module is a gross exaggeration.

I did not know that. I was just going by upgrade/ retail prices.

Wickedpup
07-16-2017, 03:17 PM
Thanks, Jwiede you are right. Should have said upgrades :)

And no worries, Jperk. Pixologic is a one of a kind when it comes to how they run things. Think I purchased ZB back at v2 or 2.5, I seem to remember one paid upgrade, maybe around v3 (but I might be wrong) but apart from that it has been free upgrades all the way. :D

jwiede
07-16-2017, 08:07 PM
Thanks, Jwiede you are right. Should have said upgrades :)

No worries. Just to clarify:

From "ZBrushCore Upgrade Policy" (https://support.pixologic.com/Knowledgebase/Article/View/117/52/zbrushcore-upgrade-policy): "To date, Pixologic has never charged for an upgrade. Even people who bought the very first version of ZBrush in 1999 will still receive version 4R8 as a free upgrade, just as they have received every version along the way."

jasonwestmas
07-16-2017, 08:34 PM
I bought Zbrush 1.5 and never paid for an upgrade (all free). I did pay for a transfer from Mac to PC once.