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jwiede
05-16-2017, 02:41 PM
So not one, not two, but three months after the three month prediction was made, a LW release (somewhat predictably) has not occurred. At the same time, no blog or FB posts since Apr 7th (and those were first in a while).

Can someone official from LW3DG please be honest and tell us what's going on?

The oft-prior-used, cliche "we want to be sure everything's right" line is ringing very hollow of late.

hrgiger
05-16-2017, 02:58 PM
Maybe they meant 3 months on Mercury.

Asticles
05-16-2017, 03:13 PM
So not one, not two, but three months after the three month prediction was made, a LW release (somewhat predictably) has not occurred. At the same time, no blog or FB posts since Apr 7th (and those were first in a while).

Can someone official from LW3DG please be honest and tell us what's going on?

The oft-prior-used, cliche "we want to be sure everything's right" line is ringing very hollow of late.

I normally think jwiede is a bit negative, but in this case, I think he is right. We need LW3DG to be clear. They have the opportunity to differentiate from the other companies.
LW3DG, let's make a change, let's be the change.

+10

lardbros
05-16-2017, 03:18 PM
I normally think jwiede is a bit negative...

No??? Really???? :P

I'm sure threads like this will really help matters :)

cagey5
05-16-2017, 04:06 PM
I think it's valid by this point to voice some disquiet.

wingzeta
05-16-2017, 04:47 PM
It would be nice to hear straight from the horse's mouth. It's a good time to either announce a firm release date, or come clean about some difficulties, and give an estimated time-frame to release. In that we all want the software to come out, and want it to be great, we are all on the same side. A little communication goes a long way.

MichaelT
05-16-2017, 05:00 PM
I don't care any more... if it comes out.. great. If not... well, too bad. All I can say is that from now on, my plugin investments will primarily be with C4D. Its been a year now, and I no longer have the luxury to wait around for news (not that I've been standing still) That ship have sailed.

gar26lw
05-16-2017, 05:23 PM
I don't care any more... if it comes out.. great. If not... well, too bad. All I can say is that from now on, my plugin investments will primarily be with C4D. Its been a year now, and I no longer have the luxury to wait around for news (not that I've been standing still) That ship have sailed.

unfortunately, the same but with modo/max. No news = no faith in anything happening and I need to see some progress to consider future use on projects. it could come out and be brilliant but who cares if by that time, we are using something else as the primary dev app.

I'd also like to see some info on bugs fixed and enhancements to existing features; any info on Allembic or other ways to allow for anim to be done elsewhere and renders done in lw would be welcome.

I have visited the forums expecting to see some info but nothing, nothing on the dev blog. It puts you off bothering to look and you start visiting other 3d app forums for info and conversation.

Norka
05-16-2017, 05:57 PM
There is indeed a first time for everything. The day finally came when I can say unequivocally that I completely agree with something JW wrote. Amazing.

I will state, maybe for a second or third time, that I would be thrilled to plunk down my $299 for a paid beta. We can run multiple versions of LW simultaneously and there is simply no good reason for holding back anymore. Just release it already. I have serious doubts these days that LWN is going to set the damn world on fire. This isn't the Manhattan Project, and lives, even livelihoods (except yours LW3DG) are not in the balance. Let us put some money in the kitty for you. I'm sure you could use the cash.

3D Kiwi
05-16-2017, 06:35 PM
You can all watch this while you wait.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN0zPOpADL4

Norka
05-16-2017, 06:42 PM
:-/

rustythe1
05-16-2017, 06:48 PM
are you looking at the correct facebook page, they have been posting lots of cel shade stuff, demo reals etc all through may and there was a news letter on april 28th so they are obviously still around, but yes it is very disappointing there has not been a release or any sign of a release, I am very close to jumping ship now and just about ready to sit down and learn something else as I have needed two major bugs to be fixed for well over a year now,

erikals
05-16-2017, 07:20 PM
still waiting? = still worth the wait

i could complain about... LightWave's state... the problem is,
i could complain about... Modo's state...
i could complain about... Blender's state...
i could complain about... AutoDesk's state...
i could complain about... Softimage's... ... oh wait...

MichaelT
05-16-2017, 11:25 PM
Yeah well.. the problem here is that the polar caps are melting faster than the stream of news we're getting. Like I said, I don't care any more. I have better (more important) things to do.

dballesg
05-16-2017, 11:36 PM
So not one, not two, but three months after the three month prediction was made...

Definetly you will not have a career as a song writer.

And whom said it was three months on Earth time.
Announcements of dates on releases by NewTek we always know are on NewTek time, that runs slower than earth time.
So they still have time.

Why you dont ask Foundry when they are going to have a proper IK system with functional constraints and stretching, it has been since 601 that they do not have one and I don't see you asking them that question.
I wonder why you still insist on measure two companies doing the same sins with different rules... and only post the "uncomfortable" question about one of them...

50one
05-17-2017, 12:41 AM
What, three months gone and it's still not here? What a shocker!

Easiest thing to do is to make YT video 'lightwave is more dead than dead" and Lino will comment for sure there lol, just don't ask about timeframes, he hasnae clue like we all.

MichaelT
05-17-2017, 01:25 AM
Lino can say that things are close, and from his perspective it probably is. But in the end, there are many things he doesn't see, or know about. So unless someone like Rob says anything, we simply don't know when it comes out. But we can rant all we want.. it is evident by now that there won't be any more information. They release it whenever they want. But all things considered.. at least they can count to three :)

graviel
05-17-2017, 02:05 AM
Imagine the kids in the car.. -did we arrive yet? -No -did we arrive yet? -No -did we arrive yet? -No -did we arrive yet? -No..
It seems we are not there yet, just relax, enjoy the landscape, and remember long rides bring you far.

hrgiger
05-17-2017, 02:39 AM
Definetly you will not have a career as a song writer.

And whom said it was three months on Earth time.
Announcements of dates on releases by NewTek we always know are on NewTek time, that runs slower than earth time.
So they still have time.

Why you dont ask Foundry when they are going to have a proper IK system with functional constraints and stretching, it has been since 601 that they do not have one and I don't see you asking them that question.
I wonder why you still insist on measure two companies doing the same sins with different rules... and only post the "uncomfortable" question about one of them...

Honestly David what does that have to do with anything? This isnt about features (do i have to list all the broken things in LW that havent been addressed in years?), this is about lw3dgs lack of communication about the next release. Modo just got a new version a month ago and in a few more months we will see another release. Another 4 months, wash and repeat.....

50one
05-17-2017, 03:31 AM
Imagine the kids in the car.. -did we arrive yet? -No -did we arrive yet? -No -did we arrive yet? -No -did we arrive yet? -No..
It seems we are not there yet, just relax, enjoy the landscape, and remember long rides bring you far.

Wel, after asking for couple of hours 'are we there yet' and there's no response, I would be concerned that either both parents collapsed, no one is driving or I'm either in wrong car.

Yup, just relax and wait for **** knows what lol.

MichaelT
05-17-2017, 03:35 AM
Dad (at the launch pad in their spaceship to mars): Honey, did you fill the gas for the ship?
Partner: ...
Kids: DAD!!!!

gerry_g
05-17-2017, 03:41 AM
good metaphor but think its more analogous to this https://youtu.be/MJ-jGXkMkR8 we are all on the wrong train !

MichaelT
05-17-2017, 03:42 AM
Hahahaha... good one.

dballesg
05-17-2017, 04:31 AM
It has to do with the lack of coummunication by Foundry about when they will fix a broken system that was sold and advertised as functioning.

Sorry Steve since that fiasco with them I've become a smarter buyer, and I'm not paying anymore for their ********.

Do I need to remind you that Brad sweared that they will not go into subscription, only over his dead body, and I think the last we know about him is eating with fish or being eaten by them...

MichaelT
05-17-2017, 05:02 AM
This is a bet on uncertainty going well, and the dice does have many numbers on it.

50one
05-17-2017, 05:06 AM
It has to do with the lack of coummunication by Foundry about when they will fix a broken system that was sold and advertised as functioning.

Sorry Steve since that fiasco with them I've become a smarter buyer, and I'm not paying anymore for their ********.

Do I need to remind you that Brad sweared that they will not go into subscription, only over his dead body, and I think the last we know about him is eating with fish or being eaten by them...


Yeah, but who cares? it's LW forum, we're talking about LW.

I'm not happy about korean car, wanna talk about that?:)

JohnMarchant
05-17-2017, 05:32 AM
Wondered when this thread would appear. Even had a sweepestake going with some friends.

MichaelT
05-17-2017, 06:11 AM
Wondered when this thread would appear. Even had a sweepestake going with some friends.

Who won? :)

JohnMarchant
05-17-2017, 06:20 AM
Two of us did, but only because we know LWG3D and the rest dont even know what LightWave is.

hrgiger
05-17-2017, 07:25 AM
Sorry Steve since that fiasco with them I've become a smarter buyer, and I'm not paying anymore for their ********.

Do I need to remind you that Brad sweared that they will not go into subscription, only over his dead body, and I think the last we know about him is eating with fish or being eaten by them...

Brad isnt there anymore ,thats not up to him. And theres nothing wrong with a company offering a subscription option which they have done. When you put out a release every year, you can do that.

50one
05-17-2017, 08:13 AM
Who won? :)

Everyone, we all retarded.

kolby
05-17-2017, 09:02 AM
Three months are gone and still nothing? That's scandalous. That's what I really did not expect. :lol:

shrox
05-17-2017, 09:26 AM
I heard the materials/surfaces sample window will be larger, that made me happy.

Triodin
05-17-2017, 09:30 AM
I've set aside some money for the upgrade which I had hoped would be a a surprise "drop the mic" moment that would occur during NAB 2017. Now it's just burning a hole in my pocket as I start taking on some motion graphic work... Anybody got links to any good plugins??

jeric_synergy
05-17-2017, 09:33 AM
??? On the https://www.facebook.com/LightWave3D/ page, the latest post was May 10. Before that, May 5.

For some reason they don't come up precisely in calendar order -- the TOP item was from 4/7.

I can't speak to Twitter, because that crap is wack.

50one
05-17-2017, 10:17 AM
I've set aside some money for the upgrade which I had hoped would be a a surprise "drop the mic" moment that would occur during NAB 2017. Now it's just burning a hole in my pocket as I start taking on some motion graphic work... Anybody got links to any good plugins??

Www.autodesk.com
Www.maxon.net
Www.thefoundry.co.uk
Www.sidefx.com

:D

jwiede
05-17-2017, 10:20 AM
??? On the https://www.facebook.com/LightWave3D/ page, the latest post was May 10. Before that, May 5.

You're correct, there was "activity" there from LW3DG (on the LW FB page) after April 7th, but appear to just be reposts of others' posts and comments, not posts. Still, fair point, mea culpa. As those reposts and comments haven't provided any updated info about the release or any indication of development progress, which was my point, I still stand by my request.

sadkkf
05-17-2017, 10:38 AM
FWIW, NewTek isn't the only one with zipped lips. How long ago were we told about Zbrush 4R8? Not a peep in more than 6 months.

Asticles
05-17-2017, 10:44 AM
I've set aside some money for the upgrade which I had hoped would be a a surprise "drop the mic" moment that would occur during NAB 2017. Now it's just burning a hole in my pocket as I start taking on some motion graphic work... Anybody got links to any good plugins??

Try this and save the money for LW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCghhlMOwRg

bazsa73
05-17-2017, 12:17 PM
FWIW, NewTek isn't the only one with zipped lips. How long ago were we told about Zbrush 4R8? Not a peep in more than 6 months.
+1.
If NT would release an immature LWnext all these woers here would woe excessively till the end of times.

CaptainMarlowe
05-17-2017, 12:24 PM
Indeed. Yet I could do with some PBR renders of complex scenes, just to see what it looks like. Or some volume renders. Just his would already be a good thing, imho.

bobakabob
05-17-2017, 12:44 PM
So not one, not two, but three months after the three month prediction was made, a LW release (somewhat predictably) has not occurred. At the same time, no blog or FB posts since Apr 7th (and those were first in a while).

Can someone official from LW3DG please be honest and tell us what's going on?

The oft-prior-used, cliche "we want to be sure everything's right" line is ringing very hollow of late.

Jwiede,
There are some options:

Make something cool with the amazing software you already have and share it on the forums.

Use C4D, Maya or Modo to make really cool stuff (if you can afford it, then great)

Be thankful LW3DG are taking their time to create reliable software.

leandropedrouzo
05-17-2017, 01:54 PM
I can almost see Rob, comfortably seating in his couch when he suddenly realizes...

https://media.giphy.com/media/5LVYF2rZkT80U/giphy.gif

LIGHTWAVE!!


:D

50one
05-17-2017, 03:02 PM
i can almost see rob, comfortably seating in his couch when he suddenly realizes...

https://media.giphy.com/media/5lvyf2rzkt80u/giphy.gif

lightwave!!


:d

lmao

jeric_synergy
05-17-2017, 04:02 PM
+1.
If NT would release an immature LWnext all these woers here would woe excessively till the end of times.

I dunno: I expect ANY, ANYYYYYY, s/w to suck pretty bad when it is, effectively, v1.0. I'll even predict IT'S GONNA SUCK. There will be a tonne of bugs. It's inevitable. Hopefully all this time has laid the foundation for such bugs to be addressed quickly.

TheLexx
05-17-2017, 04:06 PM
SIG-cough-GRAPH-2017-cough.

SteveH
05-17-2017, 04:11 PM
Siggraph - cough - 2018 - cough.....?

rustythe1
05-17-2017, 05:06 PM
SIG-cough-GRAPH-2017-cough.

well they better pull their finger out as they are not on the floor plan and only a very small number of booths left.

TheLexx
05-17-2017, 06:09 PM
well they better pull their finger out as they are not on the floor plan and only a very small number of booths left.In that case, thanks to SteveH for correcting my typo. :D

Kaptive
05-17-2017, 07:35 PM
If you're gonna bake a cake, then don't rush the mix, cook for the required time... or expect a flop.

All good things come to those who wait.

etc. :)

shrox
05-17-2017, 07:45 PM
15 seconds?! I want it now!!

hrgiger
05-17-2017, 07:45 PM
seriously though, how many years before we stop saying, theyre just taking the time to get it right? 2 1/2 years now apparently has not been long enough to get it right. 3 years? 4 years?

Asticles
05-17-2017, 08:15 PM
Look at the volumetrics.

http://www.cbr.com/star-trek-discovery-first-trailer/

samurai_x
05-17-2017, 08:26 PM
And we thought Rob, Matt, Lino being lightwave users would be on lightwave users side.
Its the same old Newtek way of doing things. Xsi way of doing things.

djwaterman
05-17-2017, 09:06 PM
Look at the volumetrics.

http://www.cbr.com/star-trek-discovery-first-trailer/

I don't think any of that was done with Lightwave, if it was we'd see a FB post about it and they'd be promoting it (LW secret weapon, best kept secret and so on). That would have been done with the standard tools that production companies use.

Dexter2999
05-17-2017, 11:26 PM
The thing that I find irksome is that sales and development appear to be working on different schedules. Promotions are run to imply a sense of urgency to purchase upgrades and take advantage of offers. But there appears to be ZERO urgency in hitting a target release date anywhere in proximity (by a year?) of that promotion.

To me, it equates to them saying, "Hey! Give us your money RIGHT NOW! So, you can get the next version for a good price sometime in the next few years."

And I just don't understand how anyone can pursue that as a business plan and pass the "red face test".

I understand there are a few impressive advances, but I think it would have been more prudent to concentrate on fewer goals with the highest priority. Then add functionality of lower priority goals with point releases or future updates.

Just my opinion.

Marander
05-18-2017, 01:23 AM
The thing that I find irksome is that sales and development appear to be working on different schedules. Promotions are run to imply a sense of urgency to purchase upgrades and take advantage of offers. But there appears to be ZERO urgency in hitting a target release date anywhere in proximity (by a year?) of that promotion.

To me, it equates to them saying, "Hey! Give us your money RIGHT NOW! So, you can get the next version for a good price sometime in the next few years."

And I just don't understand how anyone can pursue that as a business plan and pass the "red face test".


Exactly! They lost all credibility.

Rob Powers said:

"Users will also have a state of the art and one of the most modern Physically-based rendering (PBR) engines of any leading full-featured pro 3D application"
"LightWave users hold their heads high with the knowledge that they have the best 3D software tool using industry standard formats and toolkits and with the most modern architecture in the industry."

Yeah state of the art, best tool and most modern architecture, common. Not with what I have seen from the blog posts. To achieve that would take them 10+ years if all other major 3d vendors would stop their development.

I wonder why an artist or TD would even be qualified to lead a software development company that is so far behind with its tech. The result is quite obvious in my opinion.

50one
05-18-2017, 01:30 AM
Exactly! They lost all credibility.

Rob Powers said:

"Users will also have a state of the art and one of the most modern Physically-based rendering (PBR) engines of any leading full-featured pro 3D application"
"LightWave users hold their heads high with the knowledge that they have the best 3D software tool using industry standard formats and toolkits and with the most modern architecture in the industry."

Yeah state of the art, best tool and most modern architecture, common. Not with what I have seen from the blog posts. To achieve that would take them 10+ years if all other major 3d vendors would stop their development.

I wonder why an artist or TD would even be qualified to lead a software development company that is so far behind with its tech. The result is quite obvious in my opinion.

Because Avatar, duh!

djwaterman
05-18-2017, 01:33 AM
Try this and save the money for LW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCghhlMOwRg

Thanks for that, check out the node page with detailed descriptions. http://animation-nodes-manual.readthedocs.io/en/latest/user_guide/nodes/index.html

We need something like that for LW.

Kaptive
05-18-2017, 02:01 AM
If it was just an update, I'd be more frustrated. They have set themselves on a journey of no return because the limits of the old code had been reached and stretched long ago. There is no other course of action, and I imagine they have to see it through to completion/bitter end because otherwise there is no other long term path. So long as they have the funding to make it through, they will be stronger for it in the long term. If they'd not done this, LW would probably be dead or dying now... proper.

As it stands, with LW3DG developing the core code and working it for the future, they are saving LWs life. Heart transplant.
They either do it right and take as long as they need, or they do it wrong and ruin it all. The thing is, the people behind Lightwave genuinely seem to love it... they don't want to kill it! They're still excited about it even, and that gives me hope.

Waiting sucks though, and always will. Everyone here knows this stuff, but it is hard to remember when you have your own needs to contend with.



The promotion and communication is still out of whack, but again, I say it is a resource issue. Marketing is a luxury, and usually the last consideration in most businesses (unless they are REAAALLY on it and have a plan in place that is stuck to) and only usually happens when they are ready to shout about the next big bit of news. Every company without a dedicated marketing arm display the same traits. It really sucks... but... it doesn't reflect on the actual products abilities. With smaller companies, it is a "proof is in the pudding" thing.

I seem to be trying to turn Lightwave into food for some reason. Right, better get to work!

samurai_x
05-18-2017, 03:21 AM
They either do it right and take as long as they need, or they do it wrong and ruin it all.


There's already a wrong way to do it. Lack of communication, lack of material, lack of everything.
Core way
XSI way


And a right way to do it. Open communication, open beta, daily builds.
Blender way
Houdini way
3dcoat way.


I'm contemplating dropping lightwave next and forego the $300 upgrade discounts if there's no news by July.
Stick to lightwave 2015 until they release the 2020 version which should save me a couple of 300 bucks. Two versions worth if we're to count lightwave development as 2.5 year cycle.

Unless they start penalizing people like Foundry. Then forget lightwave altogether. Its not worth it.
Development is too slow. Its really looking like a part time project for Newtek.
Rob has failed to change Newtek's way of doing things and bad rep as a sinking ship imho.

Marander
05-18-2017, 03:38 AM
https://youtu.be/71GsqBTKA_g

3:10 LOL This is how well known LW is in the industry. EJ's face is priceless when Noseman mentions LW.

samurai_x
05-18-2017, 04:06 AM
Well I don't like C4d's position in the industry either.
Its an overpriced piece of software that is no where near as flexible and powerful as the top dogs.
Its survival in the coming years. Its maya, max, houdini, blender that will slug it out.

Marander
05-18-2017, 04:21 AM
Well I don't like C4d's position in the industry either.
Its an overpriced piece of software that is no where near as flexible and powerful as the top dogs.
Its survival in the coming years. Its maya, max, houdini, blender that will slug it out.

I think you get that wrong or it applies only for Japan (only my opinion). Also I think you underestimate its power, it's very versatile. For CA yes, Maya is the top solution and for heavy effects Houdini. In Germany and Switzerland (and I guess other countries in Europe) it's the standard software for most design studios and agencies. It's also popular with a huge community in the US and fast growing. It's used heavily in films like Ghost in the Shell, Star Wars, all Marvel movies etc. It has its price tag but c'mon with one or two average design jobs you should be able to pay for it, after that you can use it as long as you like.

50one
05-18-2017, 06:06 AM
Hey everyone!

I've got cracking idea! Why not just create a page where we could collect money to speed up development and finance more devs? We could call it 'dare to share!', don't think anyone ever tried that.

samurai_x
05-18-2017, 06:16 AM
I think you get that wrong or it applies only for Japan (only my opinion). Also I think you underestimate its power, it's very versatile. For CA yes, Maya is the top solution and for heavy effects Houdini. In Germany and Switzerland (and I guess other countries in Europe) it's the standard software for most design studios and agencies. It's also popular with a huge community in the US and fast growing. It's used heavily in films like Ghost in the Shell, Star Wars, all Marvel movies etc. It has its price tag but c'mon with one or two average design jobs you should be able to pay for it, after that you can use it as long as you like.

Nope its anemic in Asia in general. Germany and Switzerland don't produce as much CG content as US, Canada, Japan. Maybe even Singapore produces more. Tons of studios relocated to Singapore. Even India has many satelite studios producing CG.
And they are mostly maya, max from low end to highend studios. So globally there's no beating maya and max. Not even close.
C4d's use is basically for HUD displays in those films.

roboman
05-18-2017, 07:49 AM
Hey everyone!

I've got cracking idea! Why not just create a page where we could collect money to speed up development and finance more devs? We could call it 'dare to share!', don't think anyone ever tried that.
I though that was Blenders basic business model, just asking for money and asking for money to do shorts, so they could do the development while working with the software.

50one
05-18-2017, 09:08 AM
I though that was Blenders basic business model, just asking for money and asking for money to do shorts, so they could do the development while working with the software.

Well, software is free, gotta make the money somehow as the devs just like anyone need food and shelter above their heads.

Was talking about PMG Messiah scam anyway...just for giggles.

calilifestyle
05-18-2017, 11:08 AM
See this is the problem with using year as a rev. control method. I mean LW2015, means it's old. Also in software terms most of the time 2015 means it came out in 2014... so . Anyway yeah i was cool when they pushed out Chronosculpt to users but now what. Not updates for LW or Chronosculpt.

Matt
05-18-2017, 11:23 AM
And we thought Rob, Matt, Lino being lightwave users would be on lightwave users side.
Its the same old Newtek way of doing things. Xsi way of doing things.

I am, but it's not my place to give out release dates, post example renders etc. unless I'm given permission to.

prometheus
05-18-2017, 11:27 AM
See this is the problem with using year as a rev. control method. I mean LW2015, means it's old. Also in software terms most of the time 2015 means it came out in 2014... so . Anyway yeah i was cool when they pushed out Chronosculpt to users but now what. Not updates for LW or Chronosculpt.

So would lightwave 7, 8, or 9 qualify as more modern when a potentional customer take a look at it? they will probably just wonder..lightwave 11.6.3 aha...and that was released when?
if they donīt bother to check up when it was released or how old it is, that would be plain foolish.
So I am all for a continued yearly rev method, with the addition of .3.5 etc, a yearly rev method is better to compare against other software... and what else is happening out there, as well as making it easier for everyone including the lightwave team themself to keep track record and get a sense of time between the releases...especially in cases like this.

prometheus
05-18-2017, 11:31 AM
Newtek...we have a problem

vacations are coming up, and I do not know wether it is a good thing or not that the lw release isnīt in place, I could go swiming, traveling..being out in the nice warm summer nights instead of in front of the computer, but I could
also get abstinence, and if I had the release in place at the same time I got an vacation, I could spend time testing it properly before buying...
Blah.

Asticles
05-18-2017, 11:34 AM
I am, but it's not my place to give out release dates, post example renders etc. unless I'm given permission to.

But you understand in what situation is the userbase, with all of those other softwares that are progressing fast and every day gets more difficult to be competitive. We need some sort of tranquility about the future. Because we have to invest time and money everyday to be, as said, competitive.

We need to keep the hope.

Regards.

jwiede
05-18-2017, 11:39 AM
Well I don't like C4d's position in the industry either.

You know who does like C4D's position in the industry, by all available evidence? The industry itself. Enough so for MAXON to have established a continually-growing double-digit marketshare percentage for C4D in 3D, even in Asia (as all those recently published surveys reflected, btw), and fuel year after year of C4D revenue and marketshare growth.

bazsa73
05-18-2017, 11:58 AM
I am, but it's not my place to give out release dates, post example renders etc. unless I'm given permission to.

Don't give in Matt!

jeric_synergy
05-18-2017, 12:00 PM
You know who does like C4D's position in the industry, by all available evidence? The industry itself. Enough so for MAXON to have established a continually-growing double-digit marketshare percentage for C4D in 3D, even in Asia (as all those recently published surveys reflected, btw), and fuel year after year of C4D revenue and marketshare growth.
What he said.

"C4D's position in the industry"?? You mean, "kicking @ss"? "Massive growth", despite being expensive AF? --Yeah, ya gotta hate that. /sarc :eyeroll: :screwy:

- - - Updated - - -

I just wish LWG would stack up a bunch of pre-cleared renders, and give them to {that Irish guy, sorry} and a bit of money to dole out once a month and take all the heat. IOW, marketing.

+++++++

https://youtu.be/71GsqBTKA_g
3:10 LOL This is how well known LW is in the industry. EJ's face is priceless when Noseman mentions LW.
Like "Oh, that old thing? My crazy aunt used that, decades ago....".

Also, sweet burn on (vintage) LW rendering vs C4D by Noseman. Ouch!

Exclaim
05-18-2017, 12:10 PM
Wow the amount of hostility these threads generate is disgusting. the moderators should lock it down and ban the user who started it.

Rayek
05-18-2017, 12:39 PM
It will come when it comes. Instead of all the negative energy that is poured into an energy-sucking pointless thread like this one, look away from your screens, connect with friends and family instead, and enjoy life.

TheLexx
05-18-2017, 02:14 PM
But you understand in what situation is the userbase, with all of those other softwares that are progressing fast and every day gets more difficult to be competitive. We need some sort of tranquility about the future. Because we have to invest time and money everyday to be, as said, competitive.But people do so many things, that what will satisfy some will not particularly be considered competitive by others. So purely to be Devil's Advocate, nothing personal in this :), I'm going to call that out. Someone finish the sentence - "If LW Next doesn't come out soon, I'm going to migrate to ........".

For someone like me, the new beta face rig plugin by RebelHill is news indeed, and increases competitiveness just by itself.

Asticles
05-18-2017, 04:06 PM
But people do so many things, that what will satisfy some will not particularly be considered competitive by others. So purely to be Devil's Advocate, nothing personal in this :), I'm going to call that out. Someone finish the sentence - "If LW Next doesn't come out soon, I'm going to migrate to ........".

For someone like me, the new beta face rig plugin by RebelHill is news indeed, and increases competitiveness just by itself.

“My dear, here we must run as fast as we can, just to stay in place. And if you wish to go anywhere you must run twice as fast as that.”
― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

MichaelT
05-18-2017, 04:41 PM
Well, I think "migrating" isn't a smart thing to do though. I only look at it as extending my library. And right now, C4D is surely hitting a lot of good notes with me. But again, I no longer care.. I will primarily use tools I know are moving forward, and I will still use LW, because I love it.. I do. I just thing this whole silentium nonsense have gone on long enough now.

Matt
05-18-2017, 05:13 PM
But you understand in what situation is the userbase, with all of those other softwares that are progressing fast and every day gets more difficult to be competitive. We need some sort of tranquility about the future. Because we have to invest time and money everyday to be, as said, competitive.

We need to keep the hope.

Oh I _completely_ understand the frustration.

Photogram
05-18-2017, 10:38 PM
Maybe i am too patient or too zen... but i prefer not stressing about when the neww Lightwave will be released.... that thing need to be ready to convince as many septics as possible... It is a question of the future of our beloved software... It have to be more user friendly, be a sort of democratization of the 3d for all. A tool for anyone to express themself in the simplest way but give the possibility to achieve the most complex idea ... now how every genious programmers will be able to translate theses concept into an app that respond to the need of so different people that have different needs. They have to choose a target market and focus on. Whatever they do with Lightwave i will continue using it because i know how to do anything my clients is asking to me... I believe that the Lightwave will just be better and more powefull than ever... I hope it will at least be up to date to compete and achieve the same result as any other solutions on the market today... It is important that my client believe that the software i use deliver the same quality.

Hail
05-19-2017, 02:12 AM
I am, but it's not my place to give out release dates, post example renders etc. unless I'm given permission to.

Well, I hope whoever that has been tasked to do that know that they're being a half *** doing it. Sorry but it's hard to say the community appreciates their efforts. They better kick things up a notch.

samurai_x
05-19-2017, 03:07 AM
You know who does like C4D's position in the industry, by all available evidence? The industry itself. Enough so for MAXON to have established a continually-growing double-digit marketshare percentage for C4D in 3D, even in Asia (as all those recently published surveys reflected, btw), and fuel year after year of C4D revenue and marketshare growth.

Like I said, its position is in the middle. Not anywhere close to Autodesk globally. Are you denying that?
I don't iike backing a middle of the pack expensive software.
I'd rather push lightwave to people because its bang for the back currently. But development is slow as hell.
I dropped modo, maybe dropping lightwave next.
That's just me.

samurai_x
05-19-2017, 03:10 AM
I am, but it's not my place to give out release dates, post example renders etc. unless I'm given permission to.

I thought Rob, Lino and you would change the way Newtek would do things since the modo team left and formed modo, and the Core debacle.
Newtek still didn't learn a thing.

ianr
05-19-2017, 08:13 AM
Oh I _completely_ understand the frustration.


A brave & good thing to do was this reply Matt, respect!


But Asticles's handsome & apposite comment; crafted not in his first language;

should be printed as repeating Mantra Wallpaper and wallpapered onto all

the walls in the LW3DG's Offices. Then it might sink in?


There where alot of very creative & worldy wise people on this forum once,

why should they all be treated like Mushrooms for their investment ?

Asticles
05-19-2017, 08:31 AM
Thanks ianr for your words and also thanks Matt for your reply.

50one
05-19-2017, 08:34 AM
Thanks ianr for your words and also thanks Matt for your reply.

Don't want to be that guy, as I like Matt and rest of the team.

Seriously tho, what was the purpose of the response? We understand the frustration...so what? What does that change in rebuilding customer trust and improving relations?

Asticles
05-19-2017, 09:05 AM
Deleted.

Asticles
05-19-2017, 09:30 AM
This week one client wanted to do a project for the next day morning (this was on wednesday), because he was on a hurry. I had to work until 5am. But the project was finished and delivered in time. The project originally was done in Blender+Corona, in a DIN A3 resolution to be printed at 150 dpi. Corona lasted 1 hour per render, approx. With such deliveing I wasn't able to make material or render tweaks to improve rendertimes, so what I needed is an engine that gave me good results and without any surprises. Corona did everything perfectly.

As an exercise I've tried to render the same scenes in other render engines I own (note all of this is IMHO).

Note that with corona there is no viweport preview.

Modo lasted about two hours and still with visible noise from environment lighting.
Very fast material creation but preview almost unusuable unless I worked with very small render region. A lot of time spent tweaking samples.

Lightwave internal render lasted one hour and a half, but almost all the time went to radiosity, which had much less quality (less bounces and more artifacts). Also didn't have the "real" material feeling from scratch.
As almost all the time was going to radiosity, was difficult to evaluate the final image until the end. Progressive render (or bucket under the mouse) is a must nowadays, I think.
All of these thinks will be solved with the new render engine, I expect.

Blender did the renders in 1 hour also (cpu), in 40min(laptop gpu), and in 7min(desktop gpu). Thanks to the denoise feature, of course, and the trick of changing radiosity to ambient occlusion for light bounces.
Some small artifacts but good quality. Lighting ok if you don't compare to Corona.
Not much time spent on materials and tweaking, but a bit more than Corona. Viewport preview is very good.

What I mean is that I'm sure that there are a lot of people already switching to other engines like Corona or Blender, which are free (Corona may be temporary free).

In the time LWNext arises, it will have to compete with them at cost 0. So, will it offer better results in time and quality?
They also have to offer a fast one-click solution, with an easy setup for material, render, etc.

erikals
05-19-2017, 10:27 AM
it is what it is.
as far as communication on the new LightWave, or lack of it, nothing is going to change.

many other 3Dapp companies use the same lack-of-release communication policy.


complaints haven't changed anything before, and will not change anything now. it's like waiting for a miracle.

https://thoughtswemighthavehad.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/cinderella358.jpg

     ...see Cinderella? your complaint worked the 3'rd time around!

prometheus
05-19-2017, 10:43 AM
it is what it is.
as far as communication on the new LightWave, or lack of it, nothing is going to change.

many other 3Dapp companies use the same lack-of-release communication policy.


complaints haven't changed anything before, and will not change anything now. it's like waiting for a miracle.

https://thoughtswemighthavehad.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/cinderella358.jpg

     ...see Cinderella? your complaint worked the 3'rd time around!




that image and fairy, it reminded me about the fairy and David in AI..perhaps not as pretty..."please blue fairy...make me a real boy" :) .."staring ahead forever althrough the darkness of each night...and the next day, and the next day.......thus 2000 years passed by.
I sincerely hope to see lightwave delivered with the speed of light fairy, and preferably before my pension, long before.

Please ..please lightwave fairy, give us the lightwave...please...

Part 2...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_Xq0zHRc7Q


part 1....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2XMgNL3sZY

Asticles
05-19-2017, 10:47 AM
that image and fairy, it reminded me about the fairy and David in AI..perhaps not as pretty..."please blue fairy...make me a real boy" :) .."staring ahead forever althrough the darkness of each night...and the next day, and the next day.......thus 2000 years passed by.
I sincerely hope to see the the lightwave delivered with the speed of light fairy, and preferably before my pension, long before.

Please ..please lightwave fairy, give us the lightwave...please...

Part 2...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_Xq0zHRc7Q


part 1....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2XMgNL3sZY

:) David obtained what he wanted, for one day... after an eternity.

prometheus
05-19-2017, 10:50 AM
:) David obtained what he wanted, for one day... after an eternity.

One day I may wake up in a strange future with some weird dude patting me on the head .comforting me saying, you see michael, lightwave doesnīt exist anymore, but you know what we found, we can bring life to software that is long gone, if you can recall the version number, but it will only be for one day, after that your license is spent and it can never be used again.

Asticles
05-19-2017, 11:17 AM
One day I may wake up in a strange future with some weird dude patting me on the head .comforting me saying, you see michael, lightwave doesnīt exist anymore, but you know what we found, we can bring life to software that is long gone, if you can recall the version number, but it will only be for one day, after that your license is spent and it can never be used again.

xDDDDD

Hail
05-19-2017, 11:23 AM
it is what it is.
as far as communication on the new LightWave, or lack of it, nothing is going to change.

many other 3Dapp companies use the same lack-of-release communication policy.


complaints haven't changed anything before, and will not change anything now. it's like waiting for a miracle.

https://thoughtswemighthavehad.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/cinderella358.jpg

     ...see Cinderella? your complaint worked the 3'rd time around!




Fair enough but how many of those companies have gone 2+ years without a release?
How many versions of modo have we seen over the same period? Maya? Max? Houdini? even free blender? isn't this situation beginning to feel like a smack of core all over again?

erikals
05-19-2017, 11:35 AM
LWG is not going to change their policy, so you want to ask yourself what your solution to the problem is.


One day I may wake up in a strange future with some weird dude patting me on the head .comforting me saying, you see michael, lightwave doesnīt exist anymore, but you know what we found, we can bring life to software that is long gone, if you can recall the version number, but it will only be for one day, after that your license is spent and it can never be used again.

:king:    ( hey, almost sounds like subscription... "We can plug into the cloud, but it will only be for one day" )

Kaptive
05-19-2017, 01:08 PM
Ok, so all this fairy talk has got me thinking... perhaps we should all start wishing for LW to materialise. Our combined spell power might just tip the date closer.
It is as valid a method as any.

Amurrell
05-19-2017, 01:27 PM
How I look at it is LightWave is pretty much playing catch up at this point, so unless there is some earth shattering, industry revolutionizing stuff, where the white papers only exist with LW3DG and hasn't been implemented anywhere else, and I mean anywhere else, so when the stuff comes out everyone is going to be saying "WTF this is awesome", then I don't really see the reason for the long silence with development. We've seen glimpses, but it doesn't appear to be much different than other approaches by other companies, some of which have been around for some time, like PBR, volumetrics and so on. I may be totally off base, but yeah great, that's nice and all, but are they developing an "easy button" or something? Is there something so different that it's going to turn peoples' heads so quick they break their necks? I wonder.

erikals
05-19-2017, 01:37 PM
doubt it, however it has been such a long wait, who knows...

like i have said before, i'm not that curious about LW2017, looks great, but can't see anything revolutionary.
i'm much more curious about LW2018.

JohnMarchant
05-19-2017, 01:46 PM
How I look at it is LightWave is pretty much playing catch up at this point, so unless there is some earth shattering, industry revolutionizing stuff, where the white papers only exist with LW3DG and hasn't been implemented anywhere else, and I mean anywhere else, so when the stuff comes out everyone is going to be saying "WTF this is awesome", then I don't really see the reason for the long silence with development. We've seen glimpses, but it doesn't appear to be much different than other approaches by other companies, some of which have been around for some time, like PBR, volumetrics and so on. I may be totally off base, but yeah great, that's nice and all, but are they developing an "easy button" or something? Is there something so different that it's going to turn peoples' heads so quick they break their necks? I wonder.

Well you never know NT/LWG3D have done it in the past. I dont think it will happen, im just happy for them to get us as stable a release as possible. For me its modeler that needs some work and i dont imagine im going to be surprised this time if very little has improved on that front. I always lower my expectations where software is concerned and i never buy into the hype.

shrox
05-19-2017, 02:49 PM
I make money with Lightwave...

hrgiger
05-19-2017, 02:53 PM
like i have said before, i'm not that curious about LW2017, looks great, but can't see anything revolutionary.
i'm much more curious about LW2018.

At this point, it will be LW2018 as 2017 is half over. And at this rate, you're probably looking at 2020 or after for the next release after this one.

50one
05-19-2017, 03:56 PM
I make money with Lightwave...

When the FEDs find out yer busted.
I print mines on HP laserjet.

jwiede
05-19-2017, 06:07 PM
i'm much more curious about LW2018.


At this point, it will be LW2018 as 2017 is half over. And at this rate, you're probably looking at 2020 or after for the next release after this one.

The idea that LW3DG will release LW.Next as LW2017 this year, be done with LW2017 updates (or never release any), and then manage a follow-on release for 2018 is ridiculously improbable.

erikals
05-19-2017, 06:32 PM
The idea that LW3DG will release LW.Next as LW2017 this year, be done with LW2017 updates (or never release any),
and then manage a follow-on release for 2018 is ridiculously improbable.

...December 2018.

shrox
05-19-2017, 07:48 PM
When the FEDs find out yer busted.
I print mines on HP laserjet.

Geez! Get a Canon!

jwiede
05-20-2017, 12:57 AM
...December 2018.

And that includes how many LW2017 fix/update releases? Any?

jwiede
05-20-2017, 01:00 AM
How I look at it is LightWave is pretty much playing catch up at this point, so unless there is some earth shattering, industry revolutionizing stuff, where the white papers only exist with LW3DG and hasn't been implemented anywhere else, and I mean anywhere else, so when the stuff comes out everyone is going to be saying "WTF this is awesome", then I don't really see the reason for the long silence with development.


Well you never know NT/LWG3D have done it in the past.

Within the past decade or two? Which tech?

MichaelT
05-20-2017, 02:11 AM
We're all frustrated about the delay, but this sort of threads is exactly why they've stopped talking. I would too in their shoes. With a healthier environment they would be talking... no doubt. They might even have been more open about what is going on, and so on. But all this vitriol (for years)... and then you ask why you don't hear anything? Just stop it. Start being constructive instead, because pointing fingers is the easy part. Nobody wants to step into a cesspool of darkness. *But*... it takes two to tango... meaning for this to change both LWG, *and* this type of mentality must change. Both need to be more open, and constructive.

50one
05-20-2017, 06:18 AM
It's all caused by the negativity after being silent, so the best thing to do is to be more silent.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/217/711/afd.jpg_large

JohnMarchant
05-20-2017, 06:31 AM
Within the past decade or two? Which tech?

I believe the use of HDRI was pioneered by NT, not sure of the dates. Chronosculpt was pretty well received as well, ok not technically LW. However the original comment did not say that Lightwave was first just that it has introduced some inovation to the industry.

50one
05-20-2017, 07:09 AM
I believe the use of HDRI was pioneered by NT, not sure of the dates. Chronosculpt was pretty well received as well, ok not technically LW. However the original comment did not say that Lightwave was first just that it has introduced some inovation to the industry.

Also mdd file format if I'm not mistaken which was and still is quite awesome.

hrgiger
05-20-2017, 11:53 AM
To be fair, many of the innovations in LW were made by the now current Modo team.

50one
05-20-2017, 12:08 PM
To be fair, many of the innovations in LW were made by the now current Modo team.

...who no longer works on modo.
:hey:

I'm just unhappy about broken promises, not whether the software will eventually come out or not, became a hobbyist and I use c4d at work...

erikals
05-20-2017, 12:28 PM
Modo should've been miles ahead of LightWave now, not only on the modeling front.

will be fun to see where they take Modo Next... (pun intended)

Kaptive
05-20-2017, 12:44 PM
I know this is going back... but when Lightwave was at version 5, it was one of the most affordable packages for creating good character animation, with nurbs. Their innovation at the time was making out of reach tech affordable to the mid, even budget range, and doing it well. 999 render nodes per seat! All inclusive ya know. I imagine that the early days of Lightwave defines it in the minds of many, and why so many of us are still here all these years later.

We're coming up to 30 years of Lightwave in 2018, from the days of videoscape... (2020 if you want to be pure about the Lightwave name)... so let that sink in you old gits.
That kind of longevity should be appreciated by anyone. Many things have come and gone... and yet Lightwave is gearing up for the next decade.

Edit: Researching, it sounds like 1987 for videoscape, so this year is 30 years! There is a marketing hook for them :)

Exclaim
05-20-2017, 01:28 PM
Does it really matter what year it is released? LW should ditch the name w/year theme. They only did it so people could easily keep track of the version; not to have an annual release schedule. The renderer is going to be awesome. New materials and lights, a few more modeling tools, Fiber FX, faster performance. And those are just the things they have shown so far. No one else in the industry has put so much effort and care into their products lately.

hrgiger
05-20-2017, 01:54 PM
Modo should've been miles ahead of LightWave now, not only on the modeling front.



In many ways it is and not just modeling. But Modo is much younger than LW, half its age really. Shouldn't LW be years ahead of Modo?

- - - Updated - - -


...who no longer works on modo.
:hey:



Most of the developers still do. Brad wasn't a developer or James Darknell who have left the foundry in the last year.

erikals
05-20-2017, 02:17 PM
In many ways it is and not just modeling.
no(des)


But Modo is much younger than LW, half its age really.
isn't that a counter-excuse? after all you just said Modo guys had developed much of LightWave.

50one
05-20-2017, 02:48 PM
In many ways it is and not just modeling. But Modo is much younger than LW, half its age really. Shouldn't LW be years ahead of Modo?

- - - Updated - - -



Most of the developers still do. Brad wasn't a developer or James Darknell who have left the foundry in the last year.

Well, umm I will be better quiet then.

hrgiger
05-20-2017, 03:44 PM
no


Is that the entirety of your argument?

Besides modeling which Modo is light years ahead of LW (mostly due to inaction of NT/LW3DG)....

Particles have infinite more control in Modo
They also work with dynamics
Replicators (instances) also work with dynamics
Modo already has a deformer stack (LW next)
Modo can already render PBR materials (LW next)
It has a render pass system
It can use any geometry as a light type
It has painting and sculpting tools including multi-resolution sculpting
You can animate modeling operations via its procedural mesh ops
It has retopology for high resolution meshes
Its UV tools are also light years ahead of LW and that includes if you throw plg UV in there
It has weight painting in the animation environment
It has a ton of game centric features including Normal map baking, vertex smoothing/smoothing groups, export presets for Unity and Unreal, Game units
You can stream high resolution meshes from disk so they render in the scene without being loaded
Procedural shatter for dynamics
a work plane
A preset system that's not from 1999
Already has a focus under mouse cursor for its preview renderer (lw next)
Micropoly displacement
Support for Substance, Open Subdiv 3.0, Vray and fabric engine
Advanced viewport which will display textures, environmental lighting, ambient occlusion, normal maps, screen space reflections, bump maps, and unity and unreal shaders (PBR)
Pose and actor system for animation
2 different kinds of tone mapping
setup mode for animation (like Messiah)
Load and save progressive renders (like Fprime)
Onion skinning
Built in retargeting
Later this year there will also be a beta version of Modo VR

So yeah, not just modeling...

erikals
05-20-2017, 04:14 PM
my argument is not that it isn't ahead of LightWave in general terms, my argument is that it should've been further ahead.
compare Modo to Blender for example, it should've been way ahead of it, leaving Blender in the dust.

then again, i know LightWave is lacking a bunch, so, i'll leave it at this.
i could argue for/against for days, including some features on the list you gave.

50one
05-20-2017, 04:25 PM
Yeah, but given where they started with modelling app and what features where added every year...

jwiede
05-20-2017, 05:22 PM
Yeah, but given where they started with modelling app and what features where added every year...

Which, BTW, nicely proves that extending and living off an improved modeling app's revenue while adding Layout-type functionality is an efficient, commercially-sustainable approach to "growing" a GP (general-purpose) 3D package.

hrgiger
05-20-2017, 05:35 PM
Features aren't everything either. You have to be able to actually find usability in an app and Blender is way down there on apps I would want to use on a day to day basis. My feeling is if they charged for Blender what a lot of other apps charged, a lot less people would use it.

Chris S. (Fez)
05-20-2017, 07:34 PM
3d max and Lightwave Layout are already much, much faster than Modo 10. Pure performance is why LW Next might well be worth the wait.

hrgiger
05-21-2017, 06:31 AM
3d max and Lightwave Layout are already much, much faster than Modo 10. Pure performance is why LW Next might well be worth the wait.

Performance is an issue ,no question. But 11 is about tightening up workflows and performance so Im hoping to see some nice optimizations*during the 11 series. That said, as I pointed out above, Modo has some nice features in its animation toolset over LW and it already has corrective morphs that you and I have wanted so long in LW, Chris. The corrective shaping in LW next in comparison looks quite clunky.

erikals
05-21-2017, 07:06 AM
will Modo come to a halt once they are forced to upgrade the underlying code? most probably.

as for bumps in the road for LightWave >

Modeler / Layout split - 1994  (it should never have been made split)
6 people leave LightWave to form Luxology - 2001  (surely must have left a Titanic mark)
FiberFX is bought - 2008  (the plugin turns out to have quite a few bugs, a questionable decision)
Core - 2009  (coders at NT aimed too high, project had to be abandoned)

again, with LightWave it is easy to know Why LightWave is so far behind. with Modo it is puzzling why it's not further ahead.

prometheus
05-21-2017, 07:36 AM
I have always felt that since modo was based on a modeling app, and added extensions to become more fullfledged, it still hasnīt got that stage feel..where lightwave was developed more as a workframe around a stage (layout) and a focused modeler, now it wrestles the other way around to get the modeling tools in to layout.

But I prefer the lightwave "stage" rather than the modo stage...that said, modo is indeed more capable in the modeling apartment(for some stuff that is), and indeed it has some tools I wanted in lightwave layout..but to me modo "stage" just doesnīt feel right and also respons seems to be clunky somehow.
It doesnīt mean I wouldnīt invest in modo later though.

I am a bit frustrated too about the long wait, but we do know that it is an extreme amount of changes they need to adress, and I am not using Lightwave for a living..it just keeps some personal projects on halt, on the same time I might just relax and stay away from computers this upcoming summer, that can be important to walk away a bit sometimes, I also need to invest in new hardware as well..so that goes first, for the lightwave release I am trapped in some ambiguity state of mind, not sure about what kind of impact the delay has on my stuff/ life..could be good and bad mixed.

TheLexx
05-21-2017, 08:06 AM
A bit off topic (okay a lot off topic) but I had an email today from Nevercenter saying a new Beta of Silo 3D is out. From the email:-


Dear Fan of Silo,

Great news! We have a new Silo beta ready for you!

This beta (v2.4) includes:
•FBX and Collada support (for easier export to game engines like Unity and Unreal, making Steam mods, etc.)
•An updated windowing system
•Under-the-hood rewrites (to improve performance and stability)
•Bug fixes

Note that the beta is currently Windows-only; keeping the beta initially to one platform makes it easier to develop, but the release version will not be restricted to Windows.

We'd love to hear what you think! (When responding, please include details like your OS and, if you are reporting a bug, steps for how we can reproduce it.)

I pinched myself (hard) but it was still there, so I hopped to the website (http://nevercenter.com/silo/) and there it was (with a voucher sale too). Good stuff, but roll on LW Next.

50one
05-21-2017, 08:15 AM
Well, sounds like nevercenter photo app wasn't that cash cow they hoped...

Exclaim
05-21-2017, 08:25 AM
A bit off topic (okay a lot off topic) but I had an email today from Nevercenter saying a new Beta of Silo 3D is out. From the email:-



I pinched myself (hard) but it was still there, so I hopped to the website (http://nevercenter.com/silo/) and there it was (with a voucher sale too). Good stuff, but roll on LW Next.
They've got a lot to catch up with.

jeric_synergy
05-21-2017, 10:02 AM
It's been yonks since I looked at Silo, but I remember it as being AMAZINGLY intuitive, as intuitive as using a 2d input into a 3d world can be.

hrgiger
05-21-2017, 10:30 AM
will Modo come to a halt once they are forced to upgrade the underlying code? most probably.



Most probably not. Modo is built from the Nexus framework. Changes made to the Nexus arcchitecture will propegate down to Modo so most likely any speedups will be done in Nexus. Unlike LW modeler, Modo wont have to rewrite the entire application to improve its performance. Thats not to say it wouldnt be significant work but starting from scratch? No.

But the bottom line is, Modo does most everything i need it to. LW is a different story...

erikals
05-21-2017, 10:35 AM
so why is Modo so horribly slow?

not saying you should know, but it's quite peculiar.

hrgiger
05-21-2017, 10:47 AM
so why is Modo so horribly slow?

not saying you should know, but it's quite peculiar.

It's not as slow as you're making it out to be. Deformations and rig performance need a speedup but modo handles polygons better than modeler. And it respects selections so select a few polygons in a heavy scene in Modo and perform a modeling operation and it's quick because it's not evaluating all the other polygons. Modeler on the other hand doesn't matter if you only have a few polygons selected in a heavy scene, it will be slow as molasses. Modeler is the one that is horribly slow.

erikals
05-21-2017, 10:54 AM
LightWave Modeler is a Turtle, no doubt.

well, time will show were Modo leaves its tracks, hopefully it will show the way.

hrgiger
05-21-2017, 11:11 AM
All this talk about Modo may sound like I'm coming down on LightWave but I'm not. Just a lot of what I do is modeling and I'm in my personal time I'm getting into real time assets for Unreal Engine and Modo is just an exceptional modeler while LW modeler has just fallen terribly behind and for all the things that go into creating real time assets, uvs, baking, lightmaps, smoothing groups, retopo, seeing pbr textures in real time.... lw just doesn't match up at all.
That said I am still a lw user, I will upgrade to lw next when it comes out, the volumetrics look amazing and will finally be nice to render my substance work directly in lw without 3Rd party tools. I just can't wait around though for the years it will take for lw to address the things that have been broken for years so have to use something else besides lw.

shrox
05-21-2017, 11:33 AM
Will there be beer? Guinness specifically.

erikals
05-21-2017, 11:37 AM
yes, i would probably have smacked Modo onto the list if it weren't for all the other apps i'm trying to get better at.
SynthEyes, Houdini Indie, 3DCoat, Fusion, DaVinci Resolve, Reason, AHK, TAFA, Octane, etc-etc...

might look into Modo later on.



Will there be beer? Guinness specifically.
not a Guinness fan, so no. :)

i'll bring Aquavit !

prometheus
05-21-2017, 12:26 PM
It's not as slow as you're making it out to be. Deformations and rig performance need a speedup but modo handles polygons better than modeler. And it respects selections so select a few polygons in a heavy scene in Modo and perform a modeling operation and it's quick because it's not evaluating all the other polygons. Modeler on the other hand doesn't matter if you only have a few polygons selected in a heavy scene, it will be slow as molasses. Modeler is the one that is horribly slow.

Do you have any insight on comparing the handling of particle amount, and how it compares to how lightwave handles it?
One could probably say that at lower thousand levels there isnīt much you could say, but increasing to 300 000 and even several millions?
it will of course depend on what you do to guide the particles, like a wind effector with procedural textures..that is slow in lightwave, not sure if that is even possible in modo..though I think it might be, not talking about general wind force vortex settings, that is also available in lightwave of course, but once you add a directional wind with procedural textures on the velocity vectors it goes slow..that is one area I need to see improved on lightwave...setting particles themself with vectors are one way and that is much faster in lightwave..but it is not working for dynamic changes through the animation such as the wind vectors does.

prometheus
05-21-2017, 12:29 PM
yes, i would probably have smacked Modo onto the list if it weren't for all the other apps i'm trying to get better at.
SynthEyes, Houdini Indie, 3DCoat, Fusion, DaVinci Resolve, Reason, AHK, TAFA, Octane, etc-etc...

might look into Modo later on.





not a Guinness fan, so no. :)

i'll bring Aquavit !

Not a bear fan myself, taste like horse..p, Iīll almost start to puke if I even take a taste...so for me itīs ladies drinks or pear cider,( briska).

jperk
05-21-2017, 12:39 PM
Whats wrong w/ LW modeler ?

Interface seems better than Blender.

shrox
05-21-2017, 12:50 PM
i'll bring Aquavit !

Oh, that's so artsy...

- - - Updated - - -


Not a bear fan myself, taste like horse..p, Iīll almost start to puke if I even take a taste...so for me itīs ladies drinks or pear cider,( briska).

Guinness is 50% swamp water and 50% chocolate. Mmm good.

erikals
05-21-2017, 01:02 PM
Whats wrong w/ LW modeler ?
Interface seems better than Blender.

slow on medres, no workplanes, bad rounder, no realtime tools (as good as)

...good and quite fast for smacking up basic structures though.

jperk
05-21-2017, 01:17 PM
^ eh, I just purchased LW2015. I've seen some good models made w/ LW. I was debating about getting Modo versus LW and went with LW.

hrgiger
05-21-2017, 01:18 PM
Whats wrong w/ LW modeler ?

Interface seems better than Blender.

Interface better than Blender that goes without saying. I also just hate the way Blender works. Its like they set out to annoy me.

But as far as modeler, its main problem is that it hasn't changed much over the years. Some new tools have been added in a few versions but its fundamental issues haven't been addressed. Namely its catmull clark subdivision is broken and slow, Modeler lacks true edge support, a lot of its tools aren't interactive, UV tools are limited, no smoothing groups, no tool handles except for a few specific tools and no workplane so you're forced into using a quad view all the time, no local or element action centers... I mean I could go on but those are some of the big ones.

I mean, I think they plan on moving modeling to Layout eventually, which is why I don't think they're putting a lot of work into modeler but to be honest, we just don't know what their plans are.

hrgiger
05-21-2017, 01:23 PM
Do you have any insight on comparing the handling of particle amount, and how it compares to how lightwave handles it?
.

Not really Prometheus, but I've been picking up on the particles in Modo and just love the amount of control that it gives you but I could do some more tests to that end. Do you have any insight into how I might get a particle sim from Modo into Layout? I would love to take some of my sims from Modo and render them with the new volumetrics in LW next. To be honest, I am not too optimistic about current Modo volumetrics. A friend thought I may need to write a pfx exporter so I'll just jot that down in my neverending todo list.

JohnMarchant
05-21-2017, 01:29 PM
^ eh, I just purchased LW2015. I've seen some good models made w/ LW. I was debating about getting Modo versus LW and went with LW.

There is nothing you can model in Modo that you cant model in LightWave, yes approach might be different and even work around. LW still leaves bad geometry sometimes when using boolean and modeler can get clunky and slow with high poly counts, but i regularily have 3 million polys in one layer and 10 million over a few layers with no problems, yes its not ideal but its doable.

Modeler for me is LW achilles heal by far, it has not had much TLC in a long time and its really showing it now.

jperk
05-21-2017, 01:44 PM
bummer. I'm not refunding though. Will just stick w/ LW and hope for the best with LWNext.

I went ahead and purchased LW2015 because I read users of that version can upgrade to LWNext for $250.

JohnMarchant
05-21-2017, 01:49 PM
bummer. I'm not refunding though. Will just stick w/ LW and hope for the best with LWNext.

I went ahead and purchased LW2015 because I read users of that version can upgrade to LWNext for $250.

To be honest until its in our hands and we can see for ourselves whos to say we LightWave users are wrong.

erikals
05-21-2017, 01:58 PM
i doubt it's a bummer, you'll be getting future upgrades for $290 once 2017 is out, and Modeler is still one of the fastest medres-modeling apps.

like with any app you'll also need to look at where LightWave excels.

great nodes
fast medres modeler
good render engine
good dynamics (despite shortcomings)
nice CA (IKB/Genoma)
+++
affordable plugins UP/RHiggit/TAFA/Octane etc...
+ LW2017 looks to have great new 'HyperVoxels'

LightWave is Great if you know what to use it for, not so great at Feature X,Y,Z... (like any app)

MichaelT
05-21-2017, 02:07 PM
[COLOR="#3366cc"]Modeler / Layout split - 1994  (it should never have been made split)


1994?? It have always been split (AFAIK) Ever since Videoscape 3d (which I think I still have in my basement.. in some box ;D)

erikals
05-21-2017, 02:13 PM
1994 = PC version, where they decided to go for yet another split app [agh]


Ever since Videoscape 3d
dang, wish i had that one, only got LW5.5 over here :)

prometheus
05-21-2017, 02:19 PM
Whats wrong w/ LW modeler ?

Interface seems better than Blender.

it is in my opinion as well, though ..
blender open gl ambient occlusion, a good sculpting tool which lightwave have not and some modifiers that are pretty nice, such as the skin modifier..wich converts Any polychain to a mesh..not possible in lightwave.
+Lightwave has a large set of various procedural textures that I find so fun to wrestle with when using displacements, in blender that is a quite a bit lesser unfortunately..not sure there are more addons for that.
+Blender has realtime booleans...not possible in lightwave native unless buying 3rd powers tool.
+ blender has svg import...meaning you still can adust bezier spline handles based on the imported curve..in lightwave there is no such option splotch dog got a svg importer but itīs not editable in the same way blender does it.
+blender has curve tools that allows for activating a filled curve, so you go instant mesh and pipes from the curves, no such thing in lightwave..except for may be px tools, lw cad..but the thing is that blenders are non desctructive and can be changed at any time
+blender also has draw curve, filled with a mesh on to any mesh, apart from the grease pencil that can be converted to curves and meshes, but the newer draw curve is nice.
Blender also has a terrain tool that letīs you set zero edges directly without messing with gradients maps etc.

So blender has some really nice modeling tools for free natively..and apart from that addons like hardops.

MichaelT
05-21-2017, 02:20 PM
Speaking of broken...

Now that I have reinstalled windows (again, in the now half year Microsoft "event", because they always manage to mess up the "metro" apps & taskbar + cortana (not working) *and* manage to loose program installers for already installed applications. YAY!!!! For Microsoft thinking resetting things to factory is actually a "good" thing. Reactivating licenses twice a year? Thank you Microsoft! ) But I digress... a little.. I had to say it :) .. point is.. I now only have Houdini + C4D installed. And It will stay that way until I have a reason to load up LW again. Probably when I need character animations.. because I have no idea how to do that in C4D (let alone if it is any good at it)

The good part is that I now have a portable version of MinGW set up, and set up many other applications to no longer need installations in order to work. So half of the job of reinstalling because of Microsoft "skidediledaddery" is gone :) .. Man I'm pissed... I had a task to finish on Friday. Only today was that done.

MichaelT
05-21-2017, 02:23 PM
The thing I (now) like most about modo is the fusion editing. The bad part is that it have a very annoying tendency to create extreme triangles, generating black areas in the mesh.

jperk
05-21-2017, 02:44 PM
Newtek is pulling the plug on LW?

erikals
05-21-2017, 02:46 PM
nope, that's a rumor. and that rumor is 20 years old now. try the SoftImage camp :)  just be careful not to mention the word 'AutoDesk' while there...

MichaelT
05-21-2017, 02:49 PM
Newtek is pulling the plug on LW?

Where did that idea come from???

jperk
05-21-2017, 03:09 PM
nope, that's a rumor. and that rumor is 20 years old now. try the SoftImage camp :)  just be careful not to mention the word 'AutoDesk' while there...

Well the Softimage scenario is pretty tragic. It was unnecessary to kill off as well. A lot of studios were still using it, especially in Japan. Autodesk doesn't need to sell software as they have already monopolized 3D software, but they could have given it away for free or something.

Chris S. (Fez)
05-21-2017, 03:46 PM
Performance is an issue ,no question. But 11 is about tightening up workflows and performance so Im hoping to see some nice optimizations*during the 11 series.

Hope so. I've heard good things about 11 and will likely upgrade soon. Hopefully the 11.1 list will convince me.

MichaelT
05-21-2017, 03:47 PM
@jperk:

They actually did.. kind of. They released an older version that can be used for modding. While it doesn't have rendering.. it does have most of the other features. But modeling in that version, and sending the model to another renderer is possible.

jwiede
05-21-2017, 04:16 PM
nope, that's a rumor. and that rumor is 20 years old now. try the SoftImage camp :)  just be careful not to mention the word 'AutoDesk' while there...

Even if Newtek did pull the plug on LW, judging by Newtek's historical handling of such issues, there'd be no big formal announcement (except possibly years after it was obvious beyond question to most they'd quietly affirm it), and for most part just ignore the issue entirely -- f.e. SpeedEdit, Rendition, and others. Newtek products tend to end very quietly.

bobakabob
05-21-2017, 05:17 PM
Even if Newtek did pull the plug on LW, judging by Newtek's historical handling of such issues, there'd be no big formal announcement (except possibly years after it was obvious beyond question to most they'd quietly affirm it), and for most part just ignore the issue entirely -- f.e. SpeedEdit, Rendition, and others. Newtek products tend to end very quietly.

So it goes... I'm old enough have endured threads like this which have been going on 20 years or more... There's some great work being produced in LW 2015 and earlier on the Facebook site - why not check it out?

Btw, It would be cool to see your work on the forums... and if LW is holding you back in some way, posting in Support, or art you're developing with other (more expensive?) software. I don't fully understand the compulsion to obsessively moan about an old but playable guitar that's standing neglected in the corner of your room.

LW3DG are clearly hard at work on the next release. There are blog postings, art samples and animation, a regular newsletter and occasional posts on Facebook from Lino and Matt. Zbrush has gone very quiet of late but so what... it's software, it takes a lot of time to code :)

erikals
05-21-2017, 05:51 PM
LightWave has been kicking for 30 years now! :king:

http://simplylightwave.com/images/about/aboutus_01.png

jperk
05-21-2017, 05:51 PM
I believe in Newtek and I believe in the future of LW ...if that helps.

fablefox
05-21-2017, 09:07 PM
Well the Softimage scenario is pretty tragic. It was unnecessary to kill off as well. A lot of studios were still using it, especially in Japan. Autodesk doesn't need to sell software as they have already monopolized 3D software, but they could have given it away for free or something.

That would kill Maya & MAX business/profit for a while that they need to recover/bounce from.

From business stand point, killing XSI was the right thing to do. Save on support and save on dev.

jperk
05-21-2017, 09:16 PM
Well Autodesk could easily do the same w/ 3DS Max or Maya depending on which one is more profitable. Maya seems to be the industry standard for film/ games.

Also, wasn't LW Core sort of LW Next? Newtek sort of silently canned it without announcement. Maybe it was too expensive to write LW code from scratch? Or is that still the plan w/ LW Next?

erikals
05-21-2017, 10:02 PM
the Core code got too complex, so they had to can it.
some of the Core code was moved over to a Hydra code experiment, and some of the Hydra code might be in a future LW version.

it's 'complex', LWG won't reveal much.

Dillon
05-21-2017, 10:13 PM
Yup. :) I jumped on the bandwagon with spending $18k on an Amiga 3000T way back in 1997.

A 9GB hard drive cost $1,500 back then. I had to buy 2 of them to make the Toaster/Flyer NLE functional. $3k for an 18 Gigabyte hard drive.

Wow.





LightWave has been kicking for 30 years now! :king:

http://simplylightwave.com/images/about/aboutus_01.png

erikals
05-21-2017, 10:18 PM
30 years / 36 days   :)
https://cancompany.org/co/videoscape-international-inc

samurai_x
05-21-2017, 10:54 PM
That said I am still a lw user, I will upgrade to lw next when it comes out, the volumetrics look amazing and will finally be nice to render my substance work directly in lw without 3Rd party tools.

Don't assume the stuff in the blog will be in the next version of lw.
It might not be due to technical difficulties. That's the main reason for the delay.

MichaelT
05-21-2017, 11:52 PM
30 years / 36 days   :)
https://cancompany.org/co/videoscape-international-inc

??? The company that released Videoscape 3d (which later became Lightwave) was released by Aegis. Allen Hastings & Stuart Ferguson (Videoscape & Modeler creators in that order.. and *separately*.. Yes, this is why it is separate.) always held the rights for the code (Afaik anyway) I can't remember if they created a personal company for controlling the rights to that code though. I think they did. But someone from LWG knows for sure.

Here is a little look at the past :) : https://imgur.com/gallery/K585M

MichaelT
05-22-2017, 12:15 AM
Well Autodesk could easily do the same w/ 3DS Max or Maya depending on which one is more profitable. Maya seems to be the industry standard for film/ games.

Also, wasn't LW Core sort of LW Next? Newtek sort of silently canned it without announcement. Maybe it was too expensive to write LW code from scratch? Or is that still the plan w/ LW Next?

Autodesk will never kill 3dsMax, they'd kill Maya before that happens. That program have been there with them for a very very long time. It is just two years younger than Lightwave. Because I do count 3d Studio.

djwaterman
05-22-2017, 12:27 AM
Don't assume the stuff in the blog will be in the next version of lw.
It might not be due to technical difficulties. That's the main reason for the delay.

They aren't putting stuff on the blog for kicks and giggles, they barely put anything on the blog so it's very safe to assume anything that makes it to the blog is going to be in the next release. Will it get released? Another talk for another day.

samurai_x
05-22-2017, 12:44 AM
They aren't putting stuff on the blog for kicks and giggles, they barely put anything on the blog so it's very safe to assume anything that makes it to the blog is going to be in the next release. Will it get released? Another talk for another day.

Not when there are technical issues that they didn't see at that time and only recently have come up.
So 2 to 3 months ago they thought they could release it by now but its probably coming out after July and probably with some features from the blog removed. wink wink.

rustythe1
05-22-2017, 12:50 AM
Autodesk will never kill 3dsMax, they'd kill Maya before that happens. That program have been there with them for a very very long time. It is just two years younger than Lightwave. Because I do count 3d Studio.

well don't be so sure, there are strong rumors that max tools are slowly merged with maya so they can kill it off, and judging by how much more maya gets developed than max there could be truth in it,

MichaelT
05-22-2017, 01:45 AM
well don't be so sure, there are strong rumors that max tools are slowly merged with maya so they can kill it off, and judging by how much more maya gets developed than max there could be truth in it,

Fair enough :) I still think it is highly unlikely. Especially since there are so many plugins that only work on 3dsMax. Some of which are extensively used in movies.

OnlineRender
05-22-2017, 02:29 AM
#core 2.0

- - - Updated - - -

#core 2.0


"just here for the banter"

Kaptive
05-22-2017, 02:35 AM
Don't assume the stuff in the blog will be in the next version of lw.
It might not be due to technical difficulties. That's the main reason for the delay.

Is that based upon knowledge/facts? You sound very certain.

Out of interest, I did a bit of research. Technically, we are still a few months under the average time normally waited between previous versions of LW (roughly just under 3 years, with the X.5 release happening mid-way). So LW Next certainly isn't late by historical standards. So based upon estimates for average turnaround between major releases (8,9,10,11,2015 etc) it points to around September, October 2017.

The difference regarding the wait this time around has been with the point releases... or lack of them.
We've had X.3 then X.5 as milestone updates in the past. But because that would be a bit of a misdirected task with the kind of development going on here, we haven't had those half way markers... so it seems like much longer.

I made a silly graphic to show it all, but its gigantic... if I get around to finishing it, and can find somewhere to post it, I'll put it up.

fablefox
05-22-2017, 03:23 AM
Well Autodesk could easily do the same w/ 3DS Max or Maya depending on which one is more profitable. Maya seems to be the industry standard for film/ games.

Also, wasn't LW Core sort of LW Next? Newtek sort of silently canned it without announcement. Maybe it was too expensive to write LW code from scratch? Or is that still the plan w/ LW Next?

They can't. Maya is entrenched in film while MAX is in construction/pre-vis.

It was XSI which dwindling in users, some of it due to the rewrite from what I heard. XSI was sold cheaply (or sold at all) for a reason. AD use the opportunity to get the tech.

You can say that XSI then is like LW now. Popular plug-ins are not developed for it, some users moved away ( in case of XSI, during the big rewrite). Even if XSI were not sold, it would end up like Strata (which in the good old days, quite legendary...)

lino.grandi
05-22-2017, 05:12 AM
Don't assume the stuff in the blog will be in the next version of lw.
It might not be due to technical difficulties. That's the main reason for the delay.

What's been showed in the Blog will be in the next version for sure. What is making you think differently?

Asticles
05-22-2017, 05:36 AM
Lino, do you think LWNext will be optimized to intel processors or will also include ryzen architecture?

50one
05-22-2017, 06:15 AM
What's been showed in the Blog will be in the next version for sure. What is making you think differently?

What makes us think that it will be there?

We had some stuff promised in the past too:)

hrgiger
05-22-2017, 06:59 AM
Technically, we are still a few months under the average time normally waited between previous versions of LW (roughly just under 3 years, with the X.5 release happening mid-way). So LW Next certainly isn't late by historical standards. So based upon estimates for average turnaround between major releases (8,9,10,11,2015 etc) it points to around September, October 2017.



Well, exactly. Both version 9 and 11 were long cycles but they also had multiple point upgrades. LW 2015 has not had point upgrades other than maintenance so it feels much longer. And 2015 was a fairly small update in comparison to past releases. So while I appreciate those that say LW3DG is ensuring a stable release and all that, people at the same time should not be surprised that new threads pop up every few weeks or months to ask what is going on. I figure the next thread or post on facebook isn't far away. LW3DG has to know this, they have to know their lack of communication isn't helping. They've said time and time again that they know communication should be better but we've not seen any indication that things are improving at all.
All I can say is thank goodness for Lino who does what he can to ease customer concerns. He's bound by what NT/LW3DG allows him to say, but at least both him and Matt who interact with LW users on a regular basis and let us know that things are still moving forward.

50one
05-22-2017, 07:40 AM
Quote - to say, but at least both him and Matt who interact with LW users on a regular basis and let us know that things are still moving forward.


What, where, how?

hrgiger
05-22-2017, 08:11 AM
Quote - to say, but at least both him and Matt who interact with LW users on a regular basis and let us know that things are still moving forward.


What, where, how?

On facebook mainly but occasionally here, just as Lino did above confirming the shown features will be in the next version.

inkpen3d
05-22-2017, 08:35 AM
Playing devil's advocate here...

It seems that CG production for the upcoming (and much delayed) Star Trek Discovery series was moved from LA to Canada and, it is reported in this thread (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?153692-Lightwave-Next-amp-Star-Trek-Discovery&highlight=trek), LW was dropped from the production pipeline. It is said that this was due to production costs being less in Canada, but it could also be hypothesised that the beta versions of LW Next that are rumoured to have been used in the initial stages were not actually production-ready and failed dismally in certain key areas. In which case the LWDG have maybe had to sit back down and reanalyse/rework those areas of the application's design that let the client down so badly - hence the continued delay to its release.

Just a thought.

jperk
05-22-2017, 08:45 AM
LWNext...


http://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/2328724/ill_see_you_again_in_25_years.0.gif

lardbros
05-22-2017, 09:23 AM
LW Next that are rumoured to have been used in the initial stages were not actually production-ready and failed dismally in certain key areas. In which case the LWDG have maybe had to sit back down and reanalyse/rework those areas of the application's design that let the client down so badly - hence the continued delay to its release.

Just a thought.

Hypothesised, to rhyme with... completely made up, with zero evidence. :)


You could equally hypothesise that: the new TV space comedy show, Orville, has suddenly sprung into the public's eye while Star Trek was being mismanaged, badly organised, and designed by committee, that maybe they'll can it before it even gets released. Looks like Orville might be fairly popular so far.

THIBAULT
05-22-2017, 09:26 AM
Playing devil's advocate here...

It seems that CG production for the upcoming (and much delayed) Star Trek Discovery series was moved from LA to Canada and, it is reported in this thread (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?153692-Lightwave-Next-amp-Star-Trek-Discovery&highlight=trek), LW was dropped from the production pipeline. It is said that this was due to production costs being less in Canada, but it could also be hypothesised that the beta versions of LW Next that are rumoured to have been used in the initial stages were not actually production-ready and failed dismally in certain key areas. In which case the LWDG have maybe had to sit back down and reanalyse/rework those areas of the application's design that let the client down so badly - hence the continued delay to its release.

Just a thought.

Not Beta ! Alpha.

MichaelT
05-22-2017, 09:47 AM
The move to Canada hade more practical reasons than LW being an issue. As if that would have anything to do with the move.

samurai_x
05-22-2017, 09:49 AM
What's been showed in the Blog will be in the next version for sure. What is making you think differently?

Which lw particle system will work with the new volumetrics? The old one or the new one?
I dont think it would work with the old one. And the new one? Not ready not ready. :D
See ya in Octoberish Lw next.

erikals
05-22-2017, 09:56 AM
there is Zero indication to what you say is true.

are you trolling ?

m.d.
05-22-2017, 09:59 AM
The filming and production is Toronto based....why do VFX in LA?

Canada offers major production tax grants if Canadian assets are used....federal and provincial incentives on some levels can be as much as 60% provided the work is done by Canadians.

I would not assume some accountant who has never heard of Lightwave moved VFX to Canada because of some teething issues with software.

jperk
05-22-2017, 10:26 AM
What software are the Canadians using? Not that it's entirely relevant.

m.d.
05-22-2017, 10:32 AM
What software are the Canadians using? Not that it's entirely relevant.

It seems the majority of the 38 million or so have a fondness for Windows

Asticles
05-22-2017, 10:43 AM
Answer of the day. ;)

rustythe1
05-22-2017, 10:45 AM
LWNext...


http://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/2328724/ill_see_you_again_in_25_years.0.gif

yea, but the new series looks good, has just about everyone from the original and only 1 year late! so probably worth the wait.

jwiede
05-22-2017, 10:47 AM
The filming and production is Toronto based....why do VFX in LA?

Canada offers major production tax grants if Canadian assets are used....federal and provincial incentives on some levels can be as much as 60% provided the work is done by Canadians.

I would not assume some accountant who has never heard of Lightwave moved VFX to Canada because of some teething issues with software.

In fairness, though, changing VFX providers mid-stream is a very costly, and risky move -- they basically wind up starting from scratch in pipeline and workflow efficiency and stability all over again, as well as likely incurring contract breach/severance costs (unless, of course, the VFX firm were already in breach w.r.t. schedule or costs). That's a huge hit for something as efficiency-sensitive as TV production, and generally not done lightly (lacking strong justification).

Whatever happened, speculation on what occurred is unlikely to yield any useful benefits.

jperk
05-22-2017, 10:51 AM
yea, but the new series looks good, has just about everyone from the original and only 1 year late! so probably worth the wait.

I watched it last night. Twas good.

m.d.
05-22-2017, 10:59 AM
The entire CBS VFX department was cut AFAIK
Zoic and others in Canada (not sure who has the VFX) could pick up the slack quite quickly with little effort as they have been proven to be able to handle multiple series simultaneously, and would just slide it into an already established pipeline. The wheel doesn't have to be reinvented for each series.

The weakness of the Canadian dollar and the production incentives are hard to ignore. The 60% I quoted is not an exaggeration....I have been involved in a few productions leveraging this and seen the actual numbers, depending on the province and the grants involved, up to 60% of the entire process can be covered by the Canadian government....pro rated for how many citizens are involved, with breakdowns for what percentage of VFX is Canadian, the nationality of the director and DOP etc.
A CBS exec looking at getting a 40-60% discount on VFX in lieu of a short delay would be a no brainer for a profitability factor.

prometheus
05-22-2017, 11:06 AM
Not when there are technical issues that they didn't see at that time and only recently have come up.
So 2 to 3 months ago they thought they could release it by now but its probably coming out after July and probably with some features from the blog removed. wink wink.

So you know this from inside information or just guessing?

- - - Updated - - -


What software are the Canadians using? Not that it's entirely relevant.

Hockeystick? :)

meatycheesyboy
05-22-2017, 11:11 AM
oooh oooh, can I join in?

An unnamed and completely not made up source told me that the problem is that LW Next got too powerful and gained sentience. The LW group has had to call in the government to help contain it before it runs amok in heavily populated civilian areas. So expect it, or at least what's left of it, to be released sometime in December once they've got it back under control.

prometheus
05-22-2017, 11:12 AM
Which lw particle system will work with the new volumetrics? The old one or the new one?
I dont think it would work with the old one. And the new one? Not ready not ready. :D
See ya in Octoberish Lw next.

My guess is that it will work with old one, and there is nothing even mentioned about a new particle system, heck you got hypervoxels today able to work on partigon emitter, flocking emitter, I donīt think it would be any dificulties for any new volumetric system to recognize some simple particles, we also got pixie dust, so it would probably just be a matter of if they decide it is worth to make the "old" particle system working with the new system..and I bet they have covered that...by old it really depends If there really will be another particle system in the next lw release.

I am more concerned and worried about if the next lightwave hasnīt opened up the sdk for particles so that turbulenceFD can communicate with it in terms of pushing the particles (particle advection)

m.d.
05-22-2017, 11:25 AM
just some insight into the whole Star trek discovery shakeup.....
seems there is way more going on then just VFX reassignments....

http://io9.gizmodo.com/what-the-****-is-going-on-with-star-trek-discovery-1794639961

m.d.
05-22-2017, 11:34 AM
looks like VFX went to Pixamondo, so Maya and Houdini house....CBS discovery VFX team was laid off in February, but it seems there was major delays in principal photography, so it wasn't so much mid stream

Anyone impressed with the new 'hypervoxels' on the star trek discovery trailer....is likely looking at a Houdini render
https://www.torontovfxjobs.com/blog/2017/5/18/pixomondo-work-shines-in-star-trek-discovery-trailer

hrgiger
05-22-2017, 11:58 AM
Can't imagine why the new volumetrics wouldn't work with the old particle system. It looked to me in the blog post about volumetrics like Lino was attaching the volumetrics to a simple null shape so no reason I can see it wouldn't work with the points in the old particle system.

MichaelT
05-22-2017, 12:07 PM
Pixomondo have a lot of software. Lightwave too, which they've used in several shows. Not that it matters. They'll use whatever works best. As for renders.. I would be surprised if they don't use V-ray.

m.d.
05-22-2017, 12:28 PM
find a current LW job at pixamondo....
It goes without saying they have all sorts of software, likely somebody has blender installed as well.

prometheus
05-22-2017, 12:55 PM
Can't imagine why the new volumetrics wouldn't work with the old particle system. It looked to me in the blog post about volumetrics like Lino was attaching the volumetrics to a simple null shape so no reason I can see it wouldn't work with the points in the old particle system.

Exactly

prometheus
05-22-2017, 12:59 PM
What's been showed in the Blog will be in the next version for sure. What is making you think differently?

About time someone with facts from the inside says something..short and to the point, thanks

erikals
05-22-2017, 01:11 PM
if the release is close, i doubt we'll hear anything of value until the fat lady sings. [release]

jeric_synergy
05-22-2017, 01:47 PM
A CBS exec looking at getting a 40-60% discount on VFX in lieu of a short delay would be a no brainer for a profitability factor.
I think you are mis-using "lieu".

50one
05-22-2017, 02:21 PM
About time someone with facts from the inside says something..short and to the point, thanks


Uhmm, well it's someone asking question rather than answering it, how is this helpful?
:eek:

erikals
05-22-2017, 02:32 PM
regarding release, nothing will be revealed, people should just stop asking. like i said...

https://thoughtswemighthavehad.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/cinderella358.jpg

     ...see Cinderella? your complaint worked the 3'rd time around!

m.d.
05-22-2017, 02:55 PM
I think you are mis-using "lieu".


Misusing doesn't have a hyphen

pinkmouse
05-22-2017, 03:13 PM
Misusing doesn't have a hyphen

And a sentence usually ends with a full stop.

;)

prometheus
05-22-2017, 03:21 PM
Uhmm, well it's someone asking question rather than answering it, how is this helpful?
:eek:

The very question from samurai x was highly non specific and could be about particle system 1, 2 or 3 or something down that line, Nothing..absolutly nothing is indicated anywhere that there Even would be a new particle system(though I wouldnīt mind) sure you can ask about it..but why even bother bringing in a "new particle system" to the equation when that isnīt to be seen anywhere...that is one thing, but also to continue stating the new particle system isnīt ready??? what the, I mean ..whats the point of that.

also...it was not so much a question what Lino actually answered on, it was about the features shown in the blog where samurai x mentioned that some stuff on the blog will not be there if you assume it, and then ads to it..it might not be...
Might? just guessing, and then stating "that is why it is all delayed"
Lino simply answered that what is shown in the blog will also be in the next release.

I do not know where the incitaments come from to build their own speculative air castles as we say here in sweden, maybe itīs fun and they do not got any better things to do, maybe itīs frustration and they feel urged to lash out in various
ways by describing their own truth to things of the matter, when they in truth seem to be very unconnected from the process or what is happening.

So let people who knows what they are talking about..do that, and those who donīt...stay out of pretending to do so and avoid fueling negative speculations.
That is why Linos comment is straight to the point and good to hear from since he is a part of the Lw team.

One can ask a question in many ways, for instance...I would like to know if the new volumetrics are able to be employed on any geometry as a full geo volume...that really is enough, should I really then go on and provocatively mention something llike this......I believe not..it really isnīt ready is it ..hey , followed by some grin smiley?

Lino also followed up with a question on why the person in question was thinking differently, to clarify where and why he got that "knowledge" ..that is unanswered so far anyway...so what kind of substance it has and where it is derived from is in a veil, it would also be good if they could track down if there is a source that somehow is misleading..so not more folks get that "wrong" sense of what will show up.

m.d.
05-22-2017, 03:51 PM
And a sentence usually ends with a full stop.

;)

I comment on these forums less and less nowadays....but it's times like these when members contribute to my knowledge of grammar and sentence structure in lieu a meaningful comment on the relevant subject matter, that restores my faith in the community and demonstrates that everyone does indeed have something to offer.
:)

SBowie
05-22-2017, 04:50 PM
I comment on these forums less and less nowadays....but it's times like these when members contribute to my knowledge of grammar and sentence structure in lieu a meaningful comment on the relevant subject matter, that restores my faith in the community and demonstrates that everyone does indeed have something to offer.
:)Cool! I think your ellipsis may be malformed, "in lieu" is normally followed by "of", and I think your sentence works better without a comma. ;)


(A pedant's work is never done.)

m.d.
05-22-2017, 05:01 PM
Cool! I think your ellipsis may be malformed, "in lieu" is normally followed by "of", and I think your sentence works better without a comma. ;)


(A pedant's work is never done.)

Ah yes thanks the "of" was of course a typo

(Period left off for further community involvement)

jperk
05-22-2017, 05:02 PM
At this point, waiting for LWNext has me like...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgGkwvs_AUg

m.d.
05-22-2017, 05:04 PM
Cool! I think your ellipsis may be malformed, "in lieu" is normally followed by "of", and I think your sentence works better without a comma. ;)


(A pedant's work is never done.)

The comma is course subjective, but the input is noted

('of' left out for community involvement)

samurai_x
05-22-2017, 08:53 PM
there is Zero indication to what you say is true.

are you trolling ?

I can't confirm or deny that the source is a troll. :D

The old particles system is for the old hypervoxel engine. Its obsolete.
The flocking introduced in lw 11 uses a new particle system completely oblivious to the old particle system or any other system.
The new volumetrics in lw next would need a new particle system that is not completely oblivious to other systems.
But they pulled the plug on it. Maybe Hydra exists only in a parallel world. Did you watch SHIELD lately?

Now LWG ran out of time with what they said would be 3 months to release due to technical difficulties is now further delayed. Do they rework the volumetrics to the old particle system or not include it in lw next.

With the new particle system now gone, making it work with the old particle system would be a dumb move. Its legacy, its unaware of other systems.

hrgiger
05-22-2017, 09:04 PM
Samurai, are you even listening to what you're writing?

All the new volumetric system needs is a location, a point in space to render. Say, I dont' know, like a null or particle. Like exactly what was shown in the blog post on volumetrics.

LW3DG didn't say 3 months, Lino gave a guess within 3 months but he can't predict for certain an exact date.

There is no 'new' particle system at this point and there is 0 reason the new volumetrics won't render with the current particle system in place.

jeric_synergy
05-22-2017, 09:38 PM
Eerie, isn't it?

samurai_x
05-22-2017, 10:47 PM
Samurai, are you even listening to what you're writing?

All the new volumetric system needs is a location, a point in space to render. Say, I dont' know, like a null or particle. Like exactly what was shown in the blog post on volumetrics.

LW3DG didn't say 3 months, Lino gave a guess within 3 months but he can't predict for certain an exact date.

There is no 'new' particle system at this point and there is 0 reason the new volumetrics won't render with the current particle system in place.

You're out of the loop. :D
The old particle system doesn't have ADVECTION. Sorry NT needs to get rattled.

The new volumetric renderer would need it to look good. Unless they make an excuse that its only for importing stuff from houdini, etc, in lw next. Probably the case now. Delay delay delay.

Lino is part of LW3DG. If he thought it was within 3 months then it was supposed to be within 3 months. But they probably hit a wall. So be it. But to be quiet about it is non-sense. People will understand a delay if they explain the delay.



Eerie, isn't it?


Bust another myth. :D

erikals
05-22-2017, 11:52 PM
Particle Advection would be very welcome, but that's a completely different story.

Volumetrics does not need Particle Advection too look good.
https://blog.lightwave3d.com/2015/10/volumetrics-in-lightwave

https://blog.lightwave3d.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/lw_volumetrics-700x529.jpg

not sure why you brought that up, didn't quite make sense as they've already posted Volumetric render previews that look great.

if they add it, all for it. but not sure were you got idea that LW2017 will include Particle Advection from.

samurai_x
05-23-2017, 12:36 AM
A new volumetric system needs a new particle system and the keyword there is with ADVECTION. Right NT?
Unless you already own houdini, etc and just import from them and render in lw its fine. Majority of lw users don't.
I would be really surprised if they backtrack and make it work with the old particle system that's as old as the jurassic period and a total waste of resources.
That's double the work again.
Worked on the new particle system> got cancelled> make it work with the old particle system. Wait we have other problems with the mesh engine. Screw the whole particle system. Delay delay delay. :D
They really just need to explain why its delayed and people would understand. I know I do.

erikals
05-23-2017, 01:08 AM
a new particle system is not the same as a new volumetric system.

if you want a continued updated particle system, that's another story.

MichaelT
05-23-2017, 02:13 AM
They really just need to explain why its delayed and people would understand. I know I do.

This I wholeheartedly agree with, explaining the delay would go a long way. And also take away some stress on their part as well.

Kaptive
05-23-2017, 02:34 AM
It's only delayed according to a comment by Lino though... That isn't an official release date that they promised is it? We are still about 4 months under a standard/average turnaround time for a major release.
Maybe they were hopeful for an early release, and maybe (who knows) there have been problems. But problems always happen... with EVERYTHING. It is the nature of making something.

But delay delay delay??? Barely. When we get an official release date, and then we sail past it with no official word, perhaps then what you are saying might be valid. But as it stands, we're talking about a hopeful comment by Lino, against a development cycle that is probably loaded with potentially hidden problems. Until we get that official release date, then nothing is actually delayed... it is still merely in development.

MichaelT
05-23-2017, 02:44 AM
Even if they haven't given a date.. it is years since the previous version now. At this point I think it is fair to talk about a "delay", even if nothing is stated as far as release dates go. And in fact, even if we are talking about updates, we can talk about a delay. Modo 11 (just as an example) is already 3 versions in, as far as updates go. It barely is a month. Sure, we're probably talking minor issues here.. but still. As a customer you do get the feeling that the product is moving forward. And that is important, because most people do look at other products. And they will notice that there isn't much happening "over there". Surely that is a bad thing?

inkpen3d
05-23-2017, 02:44 AM
Hi guys,

Apologies if I came across as unduly negative in my recent post - but it is increasingly hard to stay 100% positive as the months pass - but I was simply trying to explore possible reasons, based on what I'd read elsewhere, for the continued delay of the release of LW Next.

My intention was certainly not to "troll" this thread.

Best regards,
Peter

prometheus
05-23-2017, 03:25 AM
I can't confirm or deny that the source is a troll. :D

The old particles system is for the old hypervoxel engine. Its obsolete.
The flocking introduced in lw 11 uses a new particle system completely oblivious to the old particle system or any other system.
The new volumetrics in lw next would need a new particle system that is not completely oblivious to other systems.
But they pulled the plug on it. Maybe Hydra exists only in a parallel world. Did you watch SHIELD lately?

Now LWG ran out of time with what they said would be 3 months to release due to technical difficulties is now further delayed. Do they rework the volumetrics to the old particle system or not include it in lw next.

With the new particle system now gone, making it work with the old particle system would be a dumb move. Its legacy, its unaware of other systems.

Nothing that says the old particle system is only for the old hypervoxels engine, Itīs foremost a question on how well the new volumetrics system will be utlizing the "Current Particle system" or eventually a new system crawling up, or maybe even both, the new volumetrics might also have been worked out to work with flocking...guessing.

flocking is a different particle animal, not designed to make fire and explosions, still works with hypervoxels.
pawel olas fire and smoke plugin, different particle system..worked with current hypervoxels as well..yet being able to emitt from weight maps, and included vorticles (particles themself as an effector)

What are you saying about a new particle system being gone? havenīt heard something about that...and less that it actually had been implemented in a next lw version.

Having a hard time making any sense of what you discuss about a new particle system that we never have heard anything about.

50one
05-23-2017, 03:49 AM
'we there yet pap?

kolby
05-23-2017, 04:54 AM
It's only delayed according to a comment by Lino though... That isn't an official release date that they promised is it? We are still about 4 months under a standard/average turnaround time for a major release.
Maybe they were hopeful for an early release, and maybe (who knows) there have been problems. But problems always happen... with EVERYTHING. It is the nature of making something.

Sure. BUT, Lino made an estimate and as a part of the team he has some responsibility for that, even if it was his own "optimistic and unapproved" prediction. I can't imagine that I, or anyone who works with me, tell to mine client "I think it will be done in three months or anytime before" and if that does not happen, we will be doing a dead beetle. If I will work this way with my own clients, they are going to f**k me right while first contact. And what I absolutely can't understand is that there is a thread based on what Lino said, and he came here to explain some speculation which does not matter, instead of telling what's realy going on.

prometheus
05-23-2017, 05:26 AM
a new particle system is not the same as a new volumetric system.

if you want a continued updated particle system, that's another story.



a new particle system is not the same as a new volumetric system.

if you want a continued updated particle system, that's another story.


Agreed, though a new Geo engine raised a question wich particle system will work with it, collisions, spawning etc..if the current particle system simply will work, though it will still need to be updated or replaced to work with wind forces from bullet.

To me the question about thinking how the new volumetrics will adapt is a minor issue in this case..where the actual particle system itself and with geometric and turbulenceFD advection is of more interest to find out what will happen.

To me the parts seem like a different story when it comes to what would be challenging, volumetrics and particles are intertwined, but only to some digree and only so far in difficulty level I would guess.

prometheus
05-23-2017, 05:40 AM
You're out of the loop. :D
The old particle system doesn't have ADVECTION. Sorry NT needs to get rattled.

The new volumetric renderer would need it to look good. Unless they make an excuse that its only for importing stuff from houdini, etc, in lw next. Probably the case now. Delay delay delay.

Lino is part of LW3DG. If he thought it was within 3 months then it was supposed to be within 3 months. But they probably hit a wall. So be it. But to be quiet about it is non-sense. People will understand a delay if they explain the delay.





Bust another myth. :D


I think the problem is that you sort of discuss too many different entities, the new volumetrics has nothing to do with particle advection, really not much to worry about ..particle advection is a different thing and is foremost a question of turbulenceFD fluids, not really something you would mix with the new volumetrics engine, that said, I have been asking and asking about wether or not someone..jascha for instance ..if he knows wether or not the lw sdk now allows for turbulenceFD to take advantage of particle advection since that has been a limit, no answers still though...that is one of my excuses for not buying in to it..but those were a bit lame according to someone :)

The new volumetrics looks good, and implements some long time standing issues with not rendering realistic or properly, particle advection is pretty much useless in relation to that volumetric engine, you do not use a static volumetric engine to push particles...that is where a fluid engine takes over.

50one
05-23-2017, 05:47 AM
I just spoke to Newtek rep and they say we're around week from release!!!

hrgiger
05-23-2017, 05:54 AM
I just spoke to Newtek rep and they say we're around week from release!!!

I've thought for the last year we're a week from release.:) I'll believe it when I see it.

50one
05-23-2017, 06:07 AM
Dunno, the guy as quite convincing, but who knows.

prometheus
05-23-2017, 06:12 AM
I just spoke to Newtek rep and they say we're around week from release!!!

Eh..and here I go with ..delay it, I need to get my new computer up and running first..unless I fix that within a week, I might.

kolby
05-23-2017, 06:25 AM
I just spoke to Newtek rep and they say we're around week from release!!!

I expecting Lino to come here and deny it.

TheLexx
05-23-2017, 07:31 AM
I just spoke to Newtek rep and they say we're around week from release!!!I can never tell if you're doing a wind-up or not. :)

jperk
05-23-2017, 08:00 AM
I just spoke to Newtek rep and they say we're around week from release!!!

You pulling our leg? Or is Newtek?