PDA

View Full Version : Three months, no release, no FB posts since early April, etc.



Pages : 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

50one
07-29-2017, 12:16 PM
Meanwhile on LWG office, Rob and Lino are eating some lunch and read the forums:
http://media.giphy.com/media/vbxk7KdIbJuDe/giphy.gif

prometheus
07-29-2017, 08:21 PM
You do know that was a pun right? :)

My answer was similar :)

- - - Updated - - -


Meanwhile on LWG office, Rob and Lino are eating some lunch and read the forums:
http://media.giphy.com/media/vbxk7KdIbJuDe/giphy.gif

haha..whoīs rob, and whoīs Lino?

jperk
07-29-2017, 09:43 PM
I'm sticking with Lightwave.

shrox
07-29-2017, 10:09 PM
I'm sticking with Lightwave.

Snosrap
07-29-2017, 10:21 PM
I'm sticking with Lightwave.

jeric_synergy
07-29-2017, 10:37 PM
::looks around:: Is there a Spartacus in the house? Message for Signor Spartacus!

50one
07-30-2017, 02:43 AM
I'm lighting my stick.

hrgiger
07-30-2017, 03:03 AM
Even if there is no next Lightwave?

bazsa73
07-30-2017, 03:06 AM
Even if there is no next Lightwave?

My escape route is Blender and Houdini.

Wickedpup
07-30-2017, 03:12 AM
I'm waving with my lightstick

Asticles
07-30-2017, 03:20 AM
It's better to make jokes than complaining.

hrgiger
07-30-2017, 05:18 AM
My escape route is Blender and Houdini.

I dont underatand why they have to be an escape route, ones free and ones 200 a year. Why arent you using them now in addition to LW?

Ive been using Modo for the last 3 years, still use LW as well.

fablefox
07-30-2017, 06:06 AM
I dont underatand why they have to be an escape route, ones free and ones 200 a year. Why arent you using them now in addition to LW?

Ive been using Modo for the last 3 years, still use LW as well.

For hobbyist - its time invested. I once seriously study Carrara 5 because it was provided for free on 3D World cover disk. I was a poor 3rd worlder at that time. A little bit OK now. There was also a time Microsoft give away TrueSpace - it was godsend - I once use it (a very even older version) because it was provided for free on one of Laura Lemay book on 3d or VRML.

But there came a time (for example Carrara is still sold on Daz3D website, and so is Hexagon, which AFAIK, also provided for free once on 3D World cover disk) you just got to let an app go. And focus on an app with a future...

bazsa73
07-30-2017, 06:54 AM
I dont underatand why they have to be an escape route, ones free and ones 200 a year. Why arent you using them now in addition to LW?

Ive been using Modo for the last 3 years, still use LW as well.

Sorry, I won't say it again.

Marander
07-30-2017, 07:07 AM
For hobbyist - its time invested.

Yes exactly!

I can afford all the hardware and software I want but I want to have fun creating stuff in my free time and not to be bothered with old bugs or outdated tools, lack of interoperability and bad workflows.

Luxury for me is to have enough time to do what I like, where and when ever I like (and therefore I prefer having efficient tools and perpetual licenses that never expires or need online activation or node locking).

I don't mind beta testing for software I have licenses for, but I expect the final version to be stable. I love getting updates, trying out new features and learning new things (if it builds up on something and is not a dead end road).

I stopped falling for early bird offers where the final product is never released or doesn't match the previously raised expectations.

So let's see what Siggraph brings, I really expect a release from LW3DG.

jeric_synergy
07-30-2017, 10:05 AM
So let's see what Siggraph brings, I really expect a release from LW3DG.
At least we'll have "Rick and Morty" no matter what.

hrgiger
07-30-2017, 10:19 AM
Sorry, I won't say it again.

Wasnt criticizing, just suggesting theres no reason not to use something else regardless if you are using lw or not.

jeric_synergy
07-30-2017, 10:33 AM
Sorry, I won't say it again.

It's free, and it does SOME things better than LW, even some modeling operations, so I say use the heck out of it. If you can internalize the workflow I think it's especially good for roughing out stuff.

it's very tempting, but damn it's convoluted.

bazsa73
07-30-2017, 11:02 AM
It's free, and it does SOME things better than LW, even some modeling operations, so I say use the heck out of it. If you can internalize the workflow I think it's especially good for roughing out stuff.

it's very tempting, but damn it's convoluted.
When I am stuck with dense UV maps it's easy to manipulate it using Blender where LW only crawls on four. I had to do quick smoke/cloud effects for one of the show we are working at, Blender did it without any fuss. No freezes nothing. So yes I do use it. Now I have Hard Ops and that's awesome too. The next thing I want to learn in Blender is the CA tools. So far I manage fairly well smoke fluids and some modeling aspects. Yes it is cumbersome, took almost6-7 years to get used it, slowly but steadily.

bazsa73
07-30-2017, 11:04 AM
Wasnt criticizing, just suggesting theres no reason not to use something else regardless if you are using lw or not.

I forgot to mention that LW is my main app and even if it's abandoned I plan to use it for years. I do all my renders in LW, lots of modeling, mograph using DPKit too etc. I use besides Zbrush, Substance, Blender and some Houdini but I'm pretty lame with the latter.

jeric_synergy
07-30-2017, 11:36 AM
I wish I had snagged HardOps at $5, I feel stupid for not doing so.

Learning s/w is painful, akin to learning an entirely new KIND of musical instrument. (For example, currently I, a violinist, am trying to learn to play "4 against 3" on my accordion-- I feel like a toddler struggling to walk. That's how I feel in Blender.)

Farhad_azer
07-30-2017, 11:44 AM
Wow, i knew from your previous posts that you were learning C4D and now i see that you are also musician
I did not know you are such a legend jeric. I bet you are super rich and god knows maybe lady killer lol, am i right?

prometheus
07-30-2017, 11:54 AM
When I am stuck with dense UV maps it's easy to manipulate it using Blender where LW only crawls on four. I had to do quick smoke/cloud effects for one of the show we are working at, Blender did it without any fuss. No freezes nothing. So yes I do use it. Now I have Hard Ops and that's awesome too. The next thing I want to learn in Blender is the CA tools. So far I manage fairly well smoke fluids and some modeling aspects. Yes it is cumbersome, took almost6-7 years to get used it, slowly but steadily.


I starting to get comfortable with blender in certain areas though I have more to cover, the fire and smoke I like as far as getting it up and running now, though I need to evaluate the handling of the voxels compared to turbulenceFD, managed to do some clothfx and scanned the mdd with the mdd reader and then imported to blender through itīs import plugin ( donīt use clothfx scan here, I didnīt get that to work) then painting in weightmaps on a cloth is quite easy and then simply let the fluid fire emitt from that, and it follows along when played in the timeline (not scrubbing) And I also got fire and smoke in the opengL at the same time, so no weight emission in turbulence and no fire and smoke both at the same time in turbulenceFD and the firelight is crashing wich doesnīt make it very useful.

I have also asked several questions for jascha in the turbulenceFD forums, he usually was active on answering any questions, but nowadays I hear nothing in those forums..wether or not his busy with other things I donīt know, but it doesnīt feel good when I can not get any of that resolved, so I am starting to think I should simply skip turbulence for quite a while until something happens there, and with blender fire and smoke fluids also being free, then I see no reason why not, takes a bit more work on the shading..but otherwise I think it may be capable of good results.

Rayek
07-30-2017, 01:13 PM
I've downloaded and installed the Apprentice version of Houdini to explore it a bit. So far, it feels somewhat slow and cumbersome to work with - less direct. But that may just be kinetic memory I have to unlearn. Still pretty cool to have access to a free fully functional version (up to a point) to learn the software. The $200 indie version is attractive.

prometheus
07-30-2017, 02:23 PM
I've downloaded and installed the Apprentice version of Houdini to explore it a bit. So far, it feels somewhat slow and cumbersome to work with - less direct. But that may just be kinetic memory I have to unlearn. Still pretty cool to have access to a free fully functional version (up to a point) to learn the software. The $200 indie version is attractive.

first time?

I had my go at it some year ago, but the latest update had issues with my windows installement, got a new machine now so I have to try it out again.

jeric_synergy
07-30-2017, 02:58 PM
Wow, i knew from your previous posts that you were learning C4D and now i see that you are also musician
I did not know you are such a legend jeric. I bet you are super rich and god knows maybe lady killer lol, am i right?
I'm not even a legend in my own mind. I do have a lot of hobbies though.

C4D is quite compelling, in terms of UI design. I will say it's quite a slog, MANY hidden options (not hidden per se, but rather 'lost in the noise'), and the Help is approx 87.3% "zero hits". Fortunately the internet makes up for that. Like, real example: there's no dialog-centric Point Normal Move, and the work-arounds are merely OK. After twenty minutes or so looking at vids (much rather search text) I found a way. But many users' solutions were not the best. (Also, I keep losing my custom layouts. :( )

(LW's Camera is still better, IMO, for maneuvering.)


I've downloaded and installed the Apprentice version of Houdini to explore it a bit. So far, it feels somewhat slow and cumbersome to work with - less direct. But that may just be kinetic memory I have to unlearn. Still pretty cool to have access to a free fully functional version (up to a point) to learn the software. The $200 indie version is attractive.
How are the Houdini tutorials? It IS very nice that there's a path towards learning.

FWIW I usually keep a running diary of impressions when I try to learn a new app, c4d and 3dcoat in particular. The idea is that typing it out will fix it in my memory better, since I never actually manage to go back and review the text. I'm not sure what mix of "blindly following tutes" versus "struggling to create original pieces" is optimum, and it probably varies for everybody.

NO program I've encountered has had the depth and usability of the UNITY help system, that's for sure. It is AMAZING.

tburbage
07-30-2017, 07:56 PM
I can only say I'll upgrade as soon as the release is available, take the time to digest what's new, what's changed, what's left behind, and then see where things stand.

jwiede
07-30-2017, 07:57 PM
Like, real example: there's no dialog-centric Point Normal Move, and the work-arounds are merely OK.

If the "Mesh->Normal {Move,Scale,Rotate}" tools (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9weZcuZsUs) aren't what you need, can you please explain precisely what you're seeking (and why they don't satisfy that need)?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9weZcuZsUs

BTW, when I searched in the docs for "normal move tool", the reference to the "Normal Move" tool was the very first entry returned -- hardly "zero hits" by any stretch. Even searching just on "normal move" it was the fourth entry returned (after one on the "Normal" tag, etc.), and clearly identified inline as a specific mesh tool.

C4D has plenty of flaws, but poor quality/quantity of documentation (and doc referencing) aren't generally cited as one.

jeric_synergy
07-30-2017, 08:11 PM
Watching now, although IMD these seem to be Polygon Normal actions rather than Point actions.... more than likely, it's unfamiliarity with the app: because of the NUMEROUS modes (really, c4d is HIGHLY modal, throughout) it's easy to miss functions, because when you look at them in any given mode (Parametric, point, edge, poly, move axis, model/object) the functions may or may not be greyed out, and that makes them difficult to spot.

Not to mention I'm most likely using LW workflows, when they are inappropriate for the c4d toolset. AND, the nomenclature is just enough different to throw one off. This particularly shows up when Searching the Help dox: my hit rate is surprisingly low, because I only speak "pidgin C4D".

For example, "Edge Loop" functionality continually eludes me. It's THERE, it's just (repeatedly) hard to find. Probably my age has something to do w/it too.

jeric_synergy
07-30-2017, 08:28 PM
Watched --and as an aside, that guy has a great, infectiously cheerful voice --- and very likely everything I want is in there. My LW-centric expectations are slowing down my learning process: since these C4D normal tools have implicit polygon island behaviour, in contrast to LWM, their functionality is enhanced. IOW, my assumptions are getting in the way of learning.

Great resource: I've subscribed to his channel. Thanks!

Over
07-30-2017, 10:50 PM
I have gone through 34 gigabytes of Cinema training tutorials and now I can make pretty complex objects (not organic). However, I still make C4D bite the dust when modeling in Lightwave, that gizmoless workflow is really fast.


C4D has plenty of flaws, but poor quality/quantity of documentation (and doc referencing) aren't generally cited as one.

I was pretty amazed at how good documentation and community training materials are.

Rayek
07-30-2017, 11:46 PM
I have gone through 34 gigabytes of Cinema training tutorials and now I can make pretty complex objects (not organic). However, I still make C4D bite the dust when modeling in Lightwave, that gizmoless workflow is really fast.



From C4D I switched to Lightwave years ago. I missed the non-destructive modeling, but Lightwave felt more direct for modeling - and faster.

Then I switched to Blender, and I've never been faster at modeling either hard surface or organic. Compared, Cinema4D feels incredibly clunky to me (excepting the bezier tools).

I now am exploring Houdini, and the first thought that came to my mind while testing modeling this morning in it: "feels similar to C4d's clunkiness". Both C4d and Houdini feel very 'clickety-click' to me - rather indirect. Once I got used to the shortcut keys in Blender, I began to soar in it.

Well, I suppose it all comes down to personal preferences. To me, in terms of working speed: Blender, Lightwave, Max, and finally C4d (of the apps I was quite familiar with throughout my working life).

Marander
07-31-2017, 12:28 AM
From C4D I switched to Lightwave years ago.
...
Well, I suppose it all comes down to personal preferences. To me, in terms of working speed: Blender, Lightwave, Max, and finally C4d (of the apps I was quite familiar with throughout my working life).

I wonder what last C4D version you worked with (not just clicking around a bit, but doing some serious modelling).

After learning modelling in LW, then switching to C4D and doing very comprehensive (commercial) subd modeling course in C4D, I find modeling in LW clunky in comparison and I love using the C4D tools. Few tools with many powerful options. Then there is the great HB modeling tools bundle that further improves the modeling workflow.

I noticed that everytime somebody complained this or that is not working in C4D, it's because they have not really worked with it but just didn't know the functionality due to lack of know how and experience.

My believe is that if you don't own /purchase the software, do a project with it and learn its ways to problem solving, you don't learn it properly. Just clicking around, watching tuturials and comparing tools isn't sufficient. Not saying that this applies to you, just my general observation.

When you compare clicky-clicky C4D to shortcuts in Blender, what stops you from using shortcuts in C4D? Of course an experienced user doesn't use the icons and menus in C4D.

I agree, Blender is a good modeler (from what I've seen, but I don't have much experience with it). LWM is ok too but hasn't done any progress since long while the other applications got way better. Not even to mention the lack of non-destructive or parametric modeling, splines, deformers, UI helpers, text tools, proper edge support, snapping, workplanes, quantizing, guidelines, working undo, sculpting etc. At the current state, I cannot image ever using it again.

You're right, it all comes down to personal preferences.

Marander
07-31-2017, 01:03 AM
Watched...
...in contrast to LWM, their functionality is enhanced.

This is what I like about Maxon, the way they design and improve tools. They have these small but important usability details and options that make them universal and efficient. Unlike in Modeler where you have tons of redundant and half-finished tools.

Most modeling can be done with few tools in C4D (Polygon Pen, Slide, Move/Rotate/Scale, Inner Extrude). Then there are the more specific tools (like the powerful Knife, Bevel (with its various modes) or Stitch & Sew, plus some helpers like Dissolve/Merge/Split/Connect/Optimize/Subdivide and more special ones like Transfer or SpinEdge).

For example, have you used
- Move/Rotate/Scale - with the Axis Extension key combination (which makes it easy to align objects to each other) or quantizing? Select edges from with start- to end edge or loop selection in Move/Rotate/Scale tool? Draw selections (similar to Live Selection) in Move/Rotate/Scale tool? Extrude or Copy geometry in Move/Rotate/Scale tool?
- Slide - in Proportional or Preserve Curvature mode, along normals or in copy mode with corresponding modifier keys or to create control loops?
- PolyPen with its various modes, for example to create arcs with adjustable segments, do cuts, melt or extend geometry, retopo, normal-rotate, perpendicular normal-move etc.?
- On-the-fly disable gizmos, modify axis with shortcuts? Do selections or hide/unhide geometry with shortcuts?

Great functionality. If the answer is no to these examples, then you haven't even learned the basic modeling tools yet.

Please note also that this video jwiede mentioned is about 5 years old from R14.

There are parts in C4D that are clunky, like the UV tools. But Maxon is aware of it and I trust that the redesign will be done proper. And there are 3rd party tools for the meantime.

You mentioned Houdini: While C4D has the reputation as the easiest 3D all-purpose 3D application, Houdini tends to be at the other end of the scale. But again, depends on your preference. If you like the mathematical and parametric approach, and love to go through countless nodes hierarchies, like formulas and scripting everywhere, it's the one. I love its concept and flexibility but haven't found time for a deeper dive.

Surrealist.
07-31-2017, 06:51 AM
Interesting stuff about C4D. So much software so little time.

Norka
07-31-2017, 07:00 AM
So I take that LWD3G has no presence whatsoever at Siggraph and there are still no nuggets?... This is not good. I thought for sure there would at least be some news during Sig...

Marander
07-31-2017, 07:30 AM
Interesting stuff about C4D. So much software so little time.

yes indeed.

... Maxon presented Cinema 4D R19 with the new modeling core.

"Release 19 offers the first small glimpse of work being done under the hood to build a new foundation for modeling tools."

The main feature is the viewport renderer with GPU based AMD ProRender supporting C4D materials, depth of field, reflections, realtime bokeh etc., it looks fantastic and very responsive.

Besides the new viewport it's not a giant update but many nice improvements (like pose space morphs, voronoi fracture detailing, great LOD functionality, weightpainting improvments, new media core (full MP4 import/export/realtime playback even up to 4k etc.), new sound effector and more.

The good thing is: New features are always tested so well and prove to be rock stable.

There are some UV improvements. "Efforts to improve C4D’s UV Editing toolset are underway, and you can enjoy the first fruits of this work in Release 19." - yes finally!

The new BodyPaint looks great.

R20 in exactly a year time should be the big new beast according to some leaked info (and Maxon's precise annual release agenda since many years)

Marander
07-31-2017, 07:38 AM
R19 new feature list:

Exchange

Alembic R19
Alembic module is now based on Alembic 1.6.1 SDK
Alembic now supports subframe interpolation
Other Attributes option enables the import of additional point attributes
Export now supports the LOD Object
Alembic Generator
Other Attributes option enables the import of additional point attributes
Several workflow improvements
Alembic Morph Tag
FBX R19
FBX module is now based on FBX SDK 2017.1
Support for FBX LOD Groups added (import/export)
Selection Only option added to export the selected objects only
Global Coordinates option added to save objects with global instead of local coordinates
New Media handling
DDS exporter added
RPF can now save Material IDs
OBJ
New option Groups (combine name collisions)
Houdini Engine Integration
Updated to Houdini Engine 16.0.633
The integration now also supports particle rotation.

Workflow / UI

New Feature Highlighting
Highlights new features in the current and previous version
Highlights fade when used
Custom highlight sets can be created
New Media Handling Core
Better media support in Cinema 4D
Data gets loaded more efficiently
Layerset chooser now supports multi-page/stream images (e.g., in multi-page TIFF files)
Layerset chooser now allows access to and selection of streams in a movie
Support for an arbitrary number of alpha channels
Format presets for all image/movie formats
Option to adapt the Movie Data Rate if the resolution changes
Textures can have their own color profiles
Embedded color profiles for textures can be loaded
Anamorphic formats can be recalculated in the Picture Viewer
TIFF files can be compressed
Pixel aspect ratio can be saved/loaded
Better support for CMYK and YUV images
3D texture view supports the greyscale color profile
New Load Substances from Folder command in the Substance Asset Manager
Various new behaviors when inserting an object with multiple objects selected
Image/movie options of loaded files are remembered, images and movies can be saved with the same settings
The Content Browser now marks Substance assets with an overlay
The Vertex Color tag has a new option with which the vertext colors can be constantly shown
The save dialog window in the Picture Viewer can now handle anamorph videos

Animation

Weighting Improvements
Improved weight mirroring
Joint matching algorithms (hierarchy-based, coordinates-based, name-based)
Improved point matching algorithm (improved nearest point, normalized closest point)
Mirror tool integration /w 1-click functionality
Weight Manager integration
Weight Manager improvements
Several workflow improvements in the Weight Manager
WM refactoring: Separated Weight Manager from the Weight tool, Weight Manager per scene
Multiple Weight Manager windows
Improved joint list workflows (more consistent, custom list order with new Weight tag sort including folder support, list supports hiding joints)
Improved spreadsheet workflow (more consistent filtering, new filters)
Expose functions to the scripting API
Weight Tool improvements
Tool refactoring and performance improvement
Normalization fixes
Select joint influences in the Viewport
Improved smooth workflow
Improved Picker workflow
New rigging specific layout
Improved commands (bind multiple objects)
Character Morphs
PSD (Pose Space Deformation) added
Undeformed version of an object can now be used for rigid body simulations

MoGraph

Improved Voronoi Fracture
Auto Connector" to automatically create a setup of Connectors between pieces.
Geometry Gluing to merge pieces together
Detailing to give pieces a more realistic look
Sorting has been moved to a new tab
New sorting mode Object
New Piece Scaling functionality, to scale voronoi cells
The effect of Offset Fragments can now be inverted, this will create one object consisting of the gaps
Hull Only can now have a thickness
The fracturing results can now be saved in the .c4d file format
Vertex maps can now be created for inside face selections, outside face selections and edge selections
Much better performance when fracturing high-polygon-count objects.
New Noise Falloff
New Sound Effector
New user interface
New, interactive Frequency graph
Sampling the sound with several probes. Sampling modes: Peak/Average/Step
Different modes to map probes to clones (Iterate/Distribute/Blend)
Different ways to colorize the clones
Improved precision for source falloff for effectors
Improved speed of the volume effector

Materials

New UV Tile Offset mode for the Variation shader
Variation shader now also work in Hair materials

Rendering

ProRender, a new GPU-Based Render Engine
Based on OpenCL 1.2, works on NVIDIA and AMD cards on Windows and AMD cards on macOS
Multi-GPU support with very effective scaling
Interactive preview render in Viewport
Support for native materials and lights
New PBR-based light and material type
Firefly filter
Bucket rendering for large resolutions
Viewport Enhancements
Faster and better-looking reflectance channel preview by physically-based shading
Reflectance channel roughness map support
Reflectance channel per-layer bump map support
Fast and accurate illumination from rectangular area lights
Depth of field effect with Bokeh (support for Diaphragm shape), closely matching the depth of field in Physical Render
Screen space reflections
Area lights can be now shown as solid in the Viewport
Spherical Camera
New Camera option to create 360° and dome renderings
New Field of View helper in the Viewport
Supports different mapping formats (lat-long, cubic-cross, cubic 3x2, cubic string)
Supports stereoscopic rendering
TeamRender Improvements
Support for Frame Steps
Changed reordering strategy
Clients continue rendering, even if the server is not reachable
Support for encrypted web connections
New automatic service discovery
New Tone Mapping post effect
Speedups for Standard Renderer
Speedups for simple transparencies in Physical and Standard Renderers
Supersampling setting for the Hardware OpenGL Renderer
Shadowmap filtering improvement for the Hardware OpenGL Renderers
Instant material updates

Modeling

New Modeling Kernel
First incarnation of the new, modern modeling kernel
Currently used by
Plane Primitive generator
Reverse Normals command
Align Normals command
Polygon Reduction generator
New command option dialog with Reverse User Normals option for Reverse Normals and Align Normals commands.
Level of Detail Object
Switching level of details levels on different criteria (user-defined level, user-defined-value, screen size horizontal/vertical/surface, camera distance, project LoD)
Different modes
Children mode
Simplify mode
Manual Group node
Polygon Reduction Generator
Polygon Reduction is now a Generator
New reduction algorithm
Reduction can be set as a percentage or as number of remaining polygons, edges or vertices
Better UV handling
Can handle multiple objects either as one object or each one separately

Displacer has new Options
Process Normal tag
Type (RGB (XYZ Tangent)

Motion Tracking

Scene Reconstruction
Reconstruction of the recorded scene, based on the Motion Tracking 3D Solve data
Creates a Point Cloud or a mesh
Motion Tracker Enhancements
Manual Tracking now can work on R,G,B or custom channels
Footage can now displayed as "Tracker View", e.g. Red Channel only.
The Tracker can now work with a circular tracking pattern

UV Editing

User Interface modifications
Improved UV Selections including Grow/Shrink Selections, Select Connected and double click to select Islands for UV Polygons and Points
Convert Selection now supports UVs
Coordinate Manager now supports UVs
New Numerical Editor for UV points

BodyPaint 3D

BodyPaint is now based on OpenGL
New BodyPaint save options

Demo Version

Rendering Resolution Limitation has been removed, The Rendering will have a Watermark instead

gar26lw
07-31-2017, 07:53 AM
So I take that LWD3G has no presence whatsoever at Siggraph and there are still no nuggets?... This is not good. I thought for sure there would at least be some news during Sig...

Yeah it's really getting to the point of whatever. I think they should release and then follow up with an update, point release or wtfe

Wickedpup
07-31-2017, 08:10 AM
Funny sidenote: If anyone had posted as much info about Modo as Marander just posted about C4d some people here would be going apesh1t.....

Surrealist.
07-31-2017, 08:23 AM
Yeah buy dude you did not have to post a whole comercial!

Actually I don't mind but seeing as how we got the message the first time ...

This is a Light Wave site. Just saying. I tho k if we need those details we can get it from the Maxon site directly.

Not complaining. But discretion is the better part of valor -as they say. ��

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah buy dude you did not have to post a whole comercial!

Actually I don't mind but seeing as how we got the message the first time ...

This is a Light Wave site. Just saying. I tho k if we need those details we can get it from the Maxon site directly.

Not complaining. But discretion is the better part of valor -as they say. 😛

gar26lw
07-31-2017, 08:26 AM
It interesting to see what's going in another programs update.

pauland
07-31-2017, 08:53 AM
It interesting to see what's going in another programs update.

Isn't that why you go to the other program's site and communities? You don't go on a Houdini site expecting LW news, do you?

You don't go one the LW site expecting LW news either, I guess.. ;-)

Marander
07-31-2017, 09:45 AM
Yeah buy dude you did not have to post a whole comercial!


Yeah you're right, maybe a link or hint would have been sufficient.

I don't need to buy, did that 2 years ago and the update is delivered as part of the maintentance.

The Siggraph has just started, so there's still chance for LWNext.

Surrealist.
07-31-2017, 09:56 AM
lol yeah sorry. Bad bad auto correct on my phone. I meant to say 'but dude". But that is kind of funny how that came out. 15 min edit limit moderators?

Just saying.

As for the "commercial" it was half in jest. No worries on my end.

Afterall there is not much else to talk about around here...lol

I guess that is also, "just saying". But then again, there is nothing left to say I guess anyway.

jwiede
07-31-2017, 10:30 AM
yes indeed.

... Maxon presented Cinema 4D R19 with the new modeling core.

"Release 19 offers the first small glimpse of work being done under the hood to build a new foundation for modeling tools."

The main feature is the viewport renderer with GPU based AMD ProRender supporting C4D materials, depth of field, reflections, realtime bokeh etc., it looks fantastic and very responsive.

Besides the new viewport it's not a giant update but many nice improvements (like pose space morphs, voronoi fracture detailing, great LOD functionality, weightpainting improvments, new media core (full MP4 import/export/realtime playback even up to 4k etc.), new sound effector and more.

The good thing is: New features are always tested so well and prove to be rock stable.

There are some UV improvements. "Efforts to improve C4D’s UV Editing toolset are underway, and you can enjoy the first fruits of this work in Release 19." - yes finally!

The new BodyPaint looks great.

R20 in exactly a year time should be the big new beast according to some leaked info (and Maxon's precise annual release agenda since many years)

Agreed, glad I've renewed my MSA for R19, and looks like I'll be doing so for R20 as well. And so begins the wait for September.

jeric_synergy
07-31-2017, 10:48 AM
Agreed, glad I've renewed my MSA for R19, and looks like I'll be doing so for R20 as well. And so begins the wait for September.
Golden handcuffs for sure.

FWIW, I'm on R17, but only as a learner.

On the LW3D FB official site, in a comment, we've been assured they're still working on it. I'm just not sure the resources, in comparison to the competitors, are there.

Chris S. (Fez)
07-31-2017, 11:37 AM
On the LW3D FB official site, in a comment, we've been assured they're still working on it.

Was that posted recently? Visited their page and did not see anything at a glance.

jeric_synergy
07-31-2017, 11:55 AM
Yeah, last couple days. But, it's a comment, not a post.

Chris S. (Fez)
07-31-2017, 12:03 PM
Ah. Thanks.

gar26lw
07-31-2017, 01:46 PM
Yeah you're right, maybe a link or hint would have been sufficient.

I don't need to buy, did that 2 years ago and the update is delivered as part of the maintentance.

The Siggraph has just started, so there's still chance for LWNext.

Yeah I did that too. I remember at the time I thought, ok take the cash, now just get on with it.

There was some deal or something.

@lwg, even after the beta list, the core debacle, the stuff ups and disappointment, some (those that *****) had enough good faith in you and put their money where their mouth is to just go do what you assured us you'd do. And you wonder why we want better communication.

I'm sure they despise the negativity on here and those that spew it. Just remember those are the people that paid you to keep going!

Anyway, I was just reminded of that and thought I'd mention it. Carry on ;)

TheLexx
07-31-2017, 02:02 PM
@Marander or jwiede, I can not find any reference to R20 anywhere - is there a link by any chance ? :)

hrgiger
07-31-2017, 02:07 PM
Well, if we're not going to get any LW news from LW3DG, what else are we going to talk about, might as well talk about things that are actually happening.

Chris S. (Fez)
07-31-2017, 02:16 PM
Newsletter should drop today...unless they are skipping July. The last newsletter was great.

jwiede
07-31-2017, 02:21 PM
@Marander or jwiede, I can not find any reference to R20 anywhere - is there a link by any chance ? :)

R19 just detailed (always happens approx. around SIGGRAPH/early Aug), ships in Sept (as always).

TheLexx
07-31-2017, 03:04 PM
Many thanks jwiede, I did see that but was just confused by R20 instead of R19, when Marander said "R20 in exactly a year time should be the big new beast according to some leaked info". Then again I felt a bit bad pulling the thread towards 4D again, so hopefully LW Next lands soon. :)

Asticles
07-31-2017, 03:29 PM
If the pizza delivery is late, the pizza is free.

hrgiger
07-31-2017, 03:38 PM
If the pizza delivery is late, the pizza is free.

At some point, you call them back and tell them you don't want their pizza if its going to take this long.

gar26lw
07-31-2017, 04:01 PM
At some point you switch from pizza hut to dominos and it makes no difference.
Now Pizza Hut has to make a much better pizza in less time at half the cost, cleverly market it, make it easier to order, deliver it faster and hopefully you'll give it a go and stick with them.
Thing is you switched cos they pissed you off and you don't care. Dominos does just fine and you are happy with the product.
Don't lose your customers. In fact, by coincidence, dominos happens to be running a series of ads on customer service and pleasing the customer right now. Even though they are shitting all over Pizza Hut. :)

shrox
07-31-2017, 04:02 PM
Few of you are are patient enough to be Jedi. Well, I'm Starfleet anyway...

jperk
07-31-2017, 04:15 PM
shrox you're a real starship trooper if you've stuck w/ LW this far in the game...

Marander
07-31-2017, 04:19 PM
@Marander or jwiede, I can not find any reference to R20 anywhere - is there a link by any chance ? :)

TheLexx, there was somebody in the c4dcafe (who already had info about R19), that R20 is the beast we're waiting for. Another user saw that the R20 sdk was provided already to some 3rd parties. A Maxon employee didn't deny this and noted that this usually happens for deep architectural / sdk changes.

Don't nail me word for word, but you should find the info in the cafe.

By the way on both cgtalk and c4dcafe there is always C4D staff commenting and answering questions.

jeric_synergy
07-31-2017, 04:40 PM
Few of you are are patient enough to be Jedi. Well, I'm Starfleet anyway...
Buncha atheists. ;)

Over
07-31-2017, 05:57 PM
Youīre all just attracted by pretty UIs.:D

And as an answer to Marauder, yes Iīm always searching for hotkeys in every app I start to use, because thatīs the way to go fast. Even with that in mind, in C4D thereīre more steps to do things than in LW.

shrox
07-31-2017, 06:22 PM
shrox you're a real starship trooper if you've stuck w/ LW this far in the game...

Quite possibly true.

- - - Updated - - -


Buncha atheists. ;)

Ha!

wingzeta
07-31-2017, 07:20 PM
All other 3D competitors should come advertise here. Why not? LW3DG still won't wake up and communicate with their users. Because someone made this super smart choice to lay low and not tell users anything. I guess it is impossible to break that negative program, and apparently they can't afford to pay a marketing person to handle it. The other companies must be ROTFL. As in the pizza analogy, once a customer goes, it is hard to get them back. Most of us understand they are in a difficult cycle, digging their way out of a hole made years ago. But, as in the C4D example, modern software products are providing tentative road maps, feedback, schedules etc. The latest LW modeling challenge even has people modeling in Blender, which is fine with me, because I don't own Newtek, but if I did, I would start asking LW3DG how the f*%$k are you, so disengaged with the community, that your own forum has become a place to debate which other software is the best to switch to from LW. And, maybe worse, not even talking about LW at all, but instead just threads on new features in other apps. Welcome discussions when they are alongside a healthy amount of LW discussion, but not in place of LW. Hey Rob Powers, where are you? Hire someone to engage the community. Even someone fresh out of college could step in, make a plan, and start work to retain users easily enough, and here's a hint, it has nothing to do with facebook, it is about your own website, blog, newsletter and forums. Announcements from there can filter down to facebook, not the other way around if you are a real company. Lift the veil half way, and get the focus back on LW. That's the easy part.

Somewhere along the way you started to see the users as the enemy maybe? Doesn't work that way. When someone won't wake up after a while, you shout, nudge them, check for a pulse, maybe pour some water on them, slap them, do CPR, defibrillator, if it doesn't work, you finally declare them dead right? No, you're not dead, but what you don't realize, is that some people who are less devoted to you, give up when you don't respond to a shout. A few more when a nudge doesn't work. By the time you get to CPR, there might not be enough people left around to save you. Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep. I love LW. I'll hold your hand til the end, but not everyone will. My $$$ alone won't keep you in business. You could say this is me pouring water on your face.

P.S. last paragraph should be read in an obnoxious slam poetry voice;-)

jeric_synergy
07-31-2017, 07:40 PM
Youīre all just attracted by pretty UIs.:D

And as an answer to Marauder, yes Iīm always searching for hotkeys in every app I start to use, because thatīs the way to go fast. Even with that in mind, in C4D thereīre more steps to do things than in LW.

I'm too much of a noob in c4d to know yet if it's overly clicky, but I do find there's some what-I-call RHYTHM things that throw me off. Like (not the best example) using Rectangle Select immediately puts you in Move Mode, IFF you use the gizmo. There's several (can't call 'em up) things of that nature that speed-bump me: they could be used to advantage, once internalized. And I'm still not quite certain what stays selected after what operation: currently the challenge is Selection Sets, NOT overwriting. Sometimes the S.Set stays selected rather tenaciously, and if you don't notice it's easy to obliterate an existing set.

(EDIT: oh, and there's some sort of "sticky keys" thing going on with some Select Tools, they seem to react differently if you PRESS a hotkey rather than CLICK a hotkey-- that's very tough to get used to, because it's a timing thing. --Or, I'm losing my marbles.)

Every program has a rhythm, and finding it is key to working fast.

(I've used some LW hotkeys for "Hide Unselected" and "Show All", because c4d doesn't have default mappings for them, and "=" and "" were unused. SCORE!)


* "IFF" is shorthand for "IF and ONLY if".

shrox
07-31-2017, 08:55 PM
At some point, you call them back and tell them you don't want their pizza if its going to take this long.

But Lightwave is like your own pizza oven with dough, sauce, cheese and toppings that never run out. So are Maxx and Maya, but if you don't pay every month, the oven stops working.

Over
07-31-2017, 09:14 PM
Simple things require simple tools and I donīt want to be forced to go through several nodal iterations to make an axial engine gas rotor, airfoils included.

Donīt get me wrong, nodes are very important, but I donīt have any problem with destructive workflows as most of the time I donīt need to undo or modify anything. I feel that both C4D and Modo are overcomplicating modeling tools. As an example I love LW Trasform tool, because in my type of work I can move/scale/rotate anything however I want without a problem, so I have little use for Modoīs several transforms and action center or Cinema transfrms and love the simple LW tool. I agree that LW modeler, special tools compared, looks like yesteryear compared to any other app tho.

To go to the point, I need non destructive tools for canopies, hoses and tubes/pipes, etc... but donīt care to be destructive when modeling oleos or valves or gears. I also prefer LW layers system to any other app item distribution system, itīs shame they havenīt added a good discrimination and selection system so when you are working with 200+ layers plugins are your only..ish option. To have operations stored below those layers (node like) would be neat. Also, to have item selection a la 3D max.

I know it looks that I want LW to become a CAD program, or have an app that be half both, but I have found in LW a perfect companion app for MD/SD. Not so much Modo or C4D.

Thatīs an aerospace engineer opinion.

Asticles
07-31-2017, 09:57 PM
Yes, when the scene is really complicated, Lw's layer system inside the object is really helpful. What I don't like is that there is no possibility of having these layers packed inside the object in layout and always are treated as different objects. This could be an improvement to have things sorted.

Also I doubt there will be any improvement in a couple of things that are mandatory for me: uv's, ies lights and a proper sky system. Although the later maybe is now solved.

Also a denoise function should have been added. Most of render engines already have it.

Edit. It is really important because it reduces greatly render times, making the software competitive and removes fireflies.

wingzeta
07-31-2017, 11:04 PM
Yes, when the scene is really complicated, Lw's layer system inside the object is really helpful. What I don't like is that there is no possibility of having these layers packed inside the object in layout and always are treated as different objects. This could be an improvement to have things sorted.

Also I doubt there will be any improvement in a couple of things that are mandatory for me: uv's, ies lights and a proper sky system. Although the later maybe is now solved.

Also a denoise function should have been added. Most of render engines already have it.

Edit. It is really important because it reduces greatly render times, making the software competitive and removes fireflies.

Agree it should be incorporated native, but I have been testing Gerardo Estrada's set up with the DPont Denoiser, and it works fairly well. Check out the thread.

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?146003-Gerardo-Estrada-DPont-Denoiser

Rayek
08-01-2017, 01:47 AM
How are the Houdini tutorials? It IS very nice that there's a path towards learning.



The documentation is surprisingly good. Excellent, rather. I was up and running in minutes.

In Cinema4D CTRL F1 is used to bring up the help file on the function you happen to hover over. In Houdini it is F1.

To be honest, Houdini's help reference is lightyears AHEAD of Cinema4D's help: the functions reference is much more comprehensive for Houdini, and the help file has a nice start layout. I immediately clicked "Basics" under "Getting Started", and off I went. Took me a couple of minutes to find my way in the GUI. The layout and information architecture of Houdini's help pages were also way better.

Houdini's help is very much TASK oriented, while Cinema4D's help reference is decidedly more FUNCTION oriented. For example, under "Using Houdini" in the left contents pane, a "Geometry" entry is found, with subcategories such as "Working with Objects", and "Primitives". Simple.

In contrast, C4D's help function's starting page is very, very spartan, and just talks about Maxon's goal "to create a powerful 3d application". At the very bottom a short list of links is presented: "Reference" and "Tutorials" stand out. However, clicking "Reference" brings up a short list of topics: "Cinema 4D Prime", and a link to the other versions. A non-helpful "Help function" and "online help" are displayed as well.
On the left, in the table of contents pane, I see an entry "First Steps", but that is a dead-end for BodyPaint.

I have written help systems myself, and even took a number of technical writing courses at a technical university. Maxon's help system makes the classic mistake of being too function oriented, and comparing to Houdini's extremely comprehensive and accessible help reference, I'd say Maxon's technical writer(s) team needs to rethink their documentation.

I did not expect this, btw. It's kinda surprising how very GOOD Houdini's manual is. I am impressed. My hat's off to Houdini's excellent technical writer team.

Btw, Lightwave's PDF file makes the same mistake: function oriented, rather than task oriented (which makes sense, since Lightwave's manual is designed as a linear classic book format). And there's no interactive link (F1) to call the relevant help reference for a specific part in the GUI. There's even no interactive help at all - just a PDF. Not very helpful.

Blender's online reference is okay - a bit of a potpourri of good and bad parts. Often function oriented to the core, while at other times quite task oriented. But again no way to call up documentation directly on a specific part of Blender.

One thing I learned from the technical writing courses: writing online help references is very hard to pull off well.

hrgiger
08-01-2017, 01:49 AM
But Lightwave is like your own pizza oven with dough, sauce, cheese and toppings that never run out. So are Maxx and Maya, but if you don't pay every month, the oven stops working.

I wouldn't know, I use Modo in addition to LW.

But then I guess the difference is, the Max and the Maya pizzas are paying their development costs and aren't being propped up by a parent company with video products. And as much as people bemoan subscription plans, in addition to bringing in a regular revenue stream for development of software (apparently developers want to be paid go figure), they're actually a preferred method for studios that want to add and remove seats as their needs change.

I want to see LW succeed, but honestly, they're not going to succeed bringing in 299 from a shrinking user base every 3 years or so and the less frequent sales of new licenses. And the user base is going to keep shrinking the longer they keep their silent campaign up.

Rayek
08-01-2017, 02:15 AM
In regards to C4D's R19 update: it's pretty good. Some good new features.

I do feel it is a "work in progress" update: both ProRender and the PBR viewport remain in an unfinished state. ProRender due to its lack of proper integration "the Maxon Way" (on CGTalk one of the Maxon devs actually confirms this) and the convoluted material system. ProRender really cries out for a nodal material system and a good (Disney) Principal Shader implemented as it was conceived by Disney. Currently it is definitely not the case. The parameters are all over the place in the material system, it seems. Compare the simplicity of Blender 2.79's Principle BSDF shader node. Cinema4d's archaic layer based material system is really starting to hurt ProRender.

From the CGtalk comments, Maxon is aware of these issues, and I expect the reason is that the much-awaited material nodes will be finished by R20 or R21, and things will improve by then.

The PBR viewport is still missing functionality (compare Eevee in its current state, for example: it is ahead of C4d's PBR viewport even in its alpha/beta state), and as someone pointed out at CGTalk, the PBR workflow in C4d R19 is awkward, and not integrated with existing PBR tools at all.

All in all, while a good update, still very much a 'work in progress' version. Similar situation in regards to the modeling core update.

Actually, after seeing C4d's R19 update, I feel much more positive about Lightwave Next. For some obscure reason I expect it may overwhelm everyone's expectations (in a very positive sense).

Chris S. (Fez)
08-01-2017, 02:48 AM
Not even a newsletter, it seems. Ah well. LW Group is certainly committed to staying quiet.

gar26lw
08-01-2017, 03:33 AM
I wouldn't know, I use Modo in addition to LW.

But then I guess the difference is, the Max and the Maya pizzas are paying their development costs and aren't being propped up by a parent company with video products. And as much as people bemoan subscription plans, in addition to bringing in a regular revenue stream for development of software (apparently developers want to be paid go figure), they're actually a preferred method for studios that want to add and remove seats as their needs change.

I want to see LW succeed, but honestly, they're not going to succeed bringing in 299 from a shrinking user base every 3 years or so and the less frequent sales of new licenses. And the user base is going to keep shrinking the longer they keep their silent campaign up.

The thing is, would you subscribe to a group that says absolutely nothing and constantly slips on deliverables?

Say they were a contractor; would you take them on? Or a company; would you work with a company that slips on commitments and doesnt communicate effectively? Nope.

Keep digging that hole of silence :( I'm so disappointed. Like someone else said, they will pay lwg and so will I cos I love the app and want it to do well and continue in development but we are 0.1%. We can't fund lwg development,even if we are prepared to put up with the madness. Maybe we are the ones that are crazy :)

Asticles
08-01-2017, 03:43 AM
Like me, there are users that start to be angry (as I see). LW3DG are not aware how much loyalty they have. If not, they would be in the basket long time ago.
I don't know if I would be happy or angrier when LWNext is out, thinking about when will the bug updates come out.

Wickedpup
08-01-2017, 04:09 AM
All other 3D competitors should come advertise here. Why not? LW3DG still won't wake up and communicate with their users. Because someone made this super smart choice to lay low and not tell users anything. I guess it is impossible to break that negative program, and apparently they can't afford to pay a marketing person to handle it. The other companies must be ROTFL. As in the pizza analogy, once a customer goes, it is hard to get them back. Most of us understand they are in a difficult cycle, digging their way out of a hole made years ago. But, as in the C4D example, modern software products are providing tentative road maps, feedback, schedules etc. The latest LW modeling challenge even has people modeling in Blender, which is fine with me, because I don't own Newtek, but if I did, I would start asking LW3DG how the f*%$k are you, so disengaged with the community, that your own forum has become a place to debate which other software is the best to switch to from LW. And, maybe worse, not even talking about LW at all, but instead just threads on new features in other apps. Welcome discussions when they are alongside a healthy amount of LW discussion, but not in place of LW. Hey Rob Powers, where are you? Hire someone to engage the community. Even someone fresh out of college could step in, make a plan, and start work to retain users easily enough, and here's a hint, it has nothing to do with facebook, it is about your own website, blog, newsletter and forums. Announcements from there can filter down to facebook, not the other way around if you are a real company. Lift the veil half way, and get the focus back on LW. That's the easy part.
I believe LWG think they can pull a rabbit out of the hat by having a release that is so awesome featurewise that users will come flooding back no matter what. IMO thinking that only software will sell software and disregarding the effect things like reputation, marketing, word of mouth, the fact that habitual creatures like us are reluctant to change software will have on sales isn't going to have a happy ending.

stiff paper
08-01-2017, 04:18 AM
...and constantly slips on deliverables?
LW3DG has absolutely, point blank, consistently and rigidly REFUSED to say when anything would ship.

And what does your response look like?

O NO LIES U MISSED DEADLINES I BIN LIE TO YOU MISSED DEADLINE ALWAYS!!!!!

Asticles
08-01-2017, 04:20 AM
I think release is near, because there is no newsletter, but only a supposition.

shrox
08-01-2017, 04:29 AM
I wouldn't know, I use Modo in addition to LW.

But then I guess the difference is, the Max and the Maya pizzas are paying their development costs and aren't being propped up by a parent company with video products. And as much as people bemoan subscription plans, in addition to bringing in a regular revenue stream for development of software (apparently developers want to be paid go figure), they're actually a preferred method for studios that want to add and remove seats as their needs change.

I want to see LW succeed, but honestly, they're not going to succeed bringing in 299 from a shrinking user base every 3 years or so and the less frequent sales of new licenses. And the user base is going to keep shrinking the longer they keep their silent campaign up.

I used to deliver pizza, my analogy is valid. Valid!

kyuzo
08-01-2017, 04:35 AM
I was looking for a particular quote online, and came across these instead..


The silent man is the best to listen to. ~Japanese proverb

Silence is the parent of wise thoughts, — the mark of a well composed mind. ~John Hunt, 1771

Nowadays most men lead lives of noisy desperation. ~James Thurber

He who does not understand your silence will probably not understand your words. ~Elbert Hubbard

Spiteful words can hurt your feelings but silence breaks your heart. ~Author Unknown


... I dunno if any of this relates to modern marketing, but definitely some food for thought!
:)

Wickedpup
08-01-2017, 04:40 AM
LW3DG has absolutely, point blank, consistently and rigidly REFUSED to say when anything would ship.

So when they DO say something.....like "it will be released in 3 months"....how do interpret that? :stumped:

Edit: My point being that if you ARE tightlipped and then suddenly a person in the know says something it should come as no surprise how people will read it.

hrgiger
08-01-2017, 04:47 AM
I used to deliver pizza, my analogy is valid. Valid!

Me too Shrock. Thing is, many pizza shops have come and gone in my town. And im still ordering pizza even though a shop i loved closed. Because ultimately, my loyalty lies with pizza, not the shop.

TheLexx
08-01-2017, 04:55 AM
It would be so funny if they had the brass balls to announce some bugs taking longer than expected to fix, combined with another discount sale. :D

Asticles
08-01-2017, 04:56 AM
It would be so funny if they had the brass balls to announce some bugs taking longer than expected to fix, combined with another discount sale. :D

Preset brass balls.

50one
08-01-2017, 05:11 AM
I have a very strange itch down there, I'm treating it as a good sign, release is imminent for sure!

gar26lw
08-01-2017, 05:29 AM
LW3DG has absolutely, point blank, consistently and rigidly REFUSED to say when anything would ship.

And what does your response look like?

O NO LIES U MISSED DEADLINES I BIN LIE TO YOU MISSED DEADLINE ALWAYS!!!!!

No need to shout. Yeah, I guess that's why they did.

I am referring to past endeavours.

- - - Updated - - -


I was looking for a particular quote online, and came across these instead..


The silent man is the best to listen to. ~Japanese proverb

Silence is the parent of wise thoughts, — the mark of a well composed mind. ~John Hunt, 1771

Nowadays most men lead lives of noisy desperation. ~James Thurber

He who does not understand your silence will probably not understand your words. ~Elbert Hubbard

Spiteful words can hurt your feelings but silence breaks your heart. ~Author Unknown


... I dunno if any of this relates to modern marketing, but definitely some food for thought!
:)

Sage words.

"the only time you worry about a soldier is when he stops bitchin'" Tall (nick notlte's character) The Thin Red Line

We haven't stopped yet so prolly ok ;)

prometheus
08-01-2017, 05:58 AM
getting too many mails without any interesting topics here for me, so Iīm unsubsribing this..
Good luck fellows.

50one
08-01-2017, 06:10 AM
Vaya con dios amigo.

shrox
08-01-2017, 06:38 AM
Me too Shrock. Thing is, many pizza shops have come and gone in my town. And im still ordering pizza even though a shop i loved closed. Because ultimately, my loyalty lies with pizza, not the shop.

Did you ever get a lady in lingerie answer the door on a delivery? That happened to me a few times.

50one
08-01-2017, 07:03 AM
I was that lady in lingerie Shrox.

prometheus
08-01-2017, 07:19 AM
Did you ever get a lady in lingerie answer the door on a delivery? That happened to me a few times.

Now you tell me, obviously I am in the wrong business:D

hrgiger
08-01-2017, 07:26 AM
Sadly no. What I got was ladies who kept their sweaty money in their bras. And it was gross.

kolby
08-01-2017, 08:02 AM
I have a very strange itch down there, I'm treating it as a good sign, release is imminent for sure!

I have same itch for more than year. You get used to it.

djwaterman
08-01-2017, 08:44 AM
There'll be a big announcement next week. I can't be any more specific sorry.

Asticles
08-01-2017, 09:05 AM
Subscription!, LW sold to Black Magic!, LW bought Messiah!, 1 pizza for every customer!

Edited

Norka
08-01-2017, 09:19 AM
...That LW3DG went b00bs up and is shutting its doors... JK... If it isn't LWN, I am not interested...

50one
08-01-2017, 09:27 AM
There'll be a big announcement next week. I can't be any more specific sorry.

Can you be more specific?

djwaterman
08-01-2017, 09:36 AM
Can you be more specific?

Not really, but you can be absolutely certain that some time somewhere on planet earth or some other planet someone or something will make a big announcement next week. Probably not about LW though.

Asticles
08-01-2017, 09:46 AM
Probably not about LW though.

A pity.

prometheus
08-01-2017, 09:54 AM
Will we actually see our scientist discover the first alien civilization? before the next Lightwave release, long shot or not? for which one of them?

50one
08-01-2017, 10:37 AM
It's gonna be like one of those NASA announcement.

Again, why not just create a thresd and say that there's a sweet stuff coming next week, what's wrong with creatong excitement? Oh I know what's wrong...

- - - Updated - - -

It's gonna be like one of those NASA announcement.

Again, why not just create a thresd and say that there's a sweet stuff coming next week, what's wrong with creatong excitement? Oh I know what's wrong...

meatycheesyboy
08-01-2017, 11:44 AM
Did you ever get a lady in lingerie answer the door on a delivery? That happened to me a few times.

I never got a lady in lingerie but I did get a gun pulled on me once. It ended up being a misunderstanding. The customer ordered pizza and arranged for the guy who owed him a bunch of drug money to come over around the same time.

Another time my lung spontaneously collapsed while I was delivering pizza and I had to drive myself to the hospital during my shift.

And yet another time my car caught on fire while I was driving it, while delivering a pizza.

JPulera
08-01-2017, 01:02 PM
And yet another time my car caught on fire while I was driving it, while delivering a pizza.

No one likes cold pizza, so there was an upside

Ernest
08-01-2017, 01:39 PM
And yet another time my car caught on fire while I was driving it, while delivering a pizza.

You're lucky. My car caught on fire and I did not even have any pizza.

TheLexx
08-01-2017, 02:03 PM
"Lightwave is not dead" (http://www.liberty3d.com/2017/08/8795/) statement from Kat on Liberty3D.

Very interesting, especially since Kat was said at one time to be a LW Next skeptic....

Surrealist.
08-01-2017, 02:30 PM
Oh come on! Even less worthy of comment than his "LightWave Dead" click bait, subscriber hunt.

Look I don't have an issue with people like this. No names need be mentioned. They are trying to make a living. They chose a path that requires getting hits and subscribers. Fine.

Anyone with half of a brain can see bad, controversial, click bait, trolling comments and videos get waaaaaay more response than sane and rational simple truths. They figured it out. Great. Good for them.

But lets not loose sight of the fact that this is just a bunch of B.S. from the start. Don't take it seriously.

Not even worth debating.

TheLexx
08-01-2017, 02:35 PM
@ Surrealist, no offence intended. Have amended post to indicate the source (ie information choice to click). :)

TIMMYLYNN
08-01-2017, 02:58 PM
I don't care when they release it as long as i'm still breathing...I look forward to it!!! :)))

Surrealist.
08-01-2017, 03:48 PM
@ Surrealist, no offence intended. Have amended post to indicate the source (ie information choice to click). :)

Oh yeah I saw the source. And I was in fact joining the two. My apology for that. I just went kind of off. But I mean, this guy too. Don't get me started. People where posting his stuff here before, and it caused a stir and I did not even know why people were giving him any credit at all. I don't care who he is or was. I said so at the time. It got nasty as people got all up in arms over it. Moderators stepped in.

We had better leave it at that. Posting what he said here would be a violation of forum rules for sure. A link maybe not.

Discussing it further. Yes.

Intuition
08-01-2017, 04:05 PM
still waiting? = still worth the wait

i could complain about... LightWave's state... the problem is,
i could complain about... Modo's state...
i could complain about... Blender's state...
i could complain about... AutoDesk's state...
i could complain about... Softimage's... ... oh wait...

Yeah, I haven't used Lightwave in a long time but I must say that, having used every piece of software to complete projects since, every community has these same issues with their software application and developers.

Erikals, you've been here long enough I'd be surprised if the cycle of releases/feedback could even surprise you anymore. ;D

gar26lw
08-01-2017, 04:43 PM
"Lightwave is not dead" (http://www.liberty3d.com/2017/08/8795/) statement from Kat on Liberty3D.

Very interesting, especially since Kat was said at one time to be a LW Next skeptic....

Kat doesn't like rob much. So what's all this read between the lines stuff and history repeating?

shrox
08-01-2017, 05:29 PM
137555

roboman
08-01-2017, 09:19 PM
As long as Newtek hasn't shut down the Lightwave div, it's very likely there will be a new ver at some point :)

jperk
08-01-2017, 10:34 PM
Poor Softimage. That was cold.

Farhad_azer
08-02-2017, 12:55 AM
LOL Ernest. That was very funny.

50one
08-02-2017, 01:14 AM
LOL, still remember the spat that KAT has with Lino over Next on FB...



Blab blah blah..Lightwave is not dead......bla blah blah Use coupon code "Lightwaveisnotdead" to buy our training


https://media.giphy.com/media/QteHiT9S6ZSfe/giphy.gif

Surrealist.
08-02-2017, 03:50 AM
Blab blah blah..Lightwave is not dead......bla blah blah Use coupon code "Lightwaveisnotdead" to buy our training




Exactly ;)


Click bait regurgitated as new click bait.

Marander
08-02-2017, 04:03 AM
Oh come on! Even less worthy of comment than his "LightWave Dead" click bait, subscriber hunt.

Yeah completely agree.

"To prove a point, we are having a sale right now for Siggraph week. While there is no “booth” presence at Siggraph for LightWave this year in LA (not a big deal really, Siggraph is not what it used to be)..." and in the comments "It’s not dead. Siggraph is."

LOL what a proof, Liberty3D is most of the time in sale mode anyway.

Official statement about Siggraph (and I agree, there are many great news and shows the last couple of days):

SIGGRAPH 2017 will be “bigger and better than ever,” says Jerome Solomon, this year’s Conference Chair. SIGGRAPH 2017 marks the 44th International Conference and Exhibition on Computer Graphics and Interactive Techniques.

But yes, in my opinion LW3DG doesn't need a booth and could still release the software during Siggraph. Hell, they don't even have to release, but at least officially announce with full feature list, some teasers and release date. Let's wait and see until Thursday.

Edit:

179(!) exhibitors, even Planetside is there presenting the new Terragen. There are many smaller companies, even Smith Micro (Poser), Realusion, SpeedTree or Blender Foundation.

https://iebms.heiexpo.com/iebms/oep/oep_p1_exhibitors.aspx?oc=16&ct=OEP&eventid=5016

50one
08-02-2017, 05:05 AM
Yeah completely agree.

"To prove a point, we are having a sale right now for Siggraph week. While there is no “booth” presence at Siggraph for LightWave this year in LA (not a big deal really, Siggraph is not what it used to be)..." and in the comments "It’s not dead. Siggraph is."

LOL what a proof, Liberty3D is most of the time in sale mode anyway.

Official statement about Siggraph (and I agree, there are many great news and shows the last couple of days):

SIGGRAPH 2017 will be “bigger and better than ever,” says Jerome Solomon, this year’s Conference Chair. SIGGRAPH 2017 marks the 44th International Conference and Exhibition on Computer Graphics and Interactive Techniques.

But yes, in my opinion LW3DG doesn't need a booth and could still release the software during Siggraph. Hell, they don't even have to release, but at least officially announce with full feature list, some teasers and release date. Let's wait and see until Thursday.

Edit:

179(!) exhibitors, even Planetside is there presenting the new Terragen. There are many smaller companies, even Smith Micro (Poser), Realusion, SpeedTree or Blender Foundation.

https://iebms.heiexpo.com/iebms/oep/oep_p1_exhibitors.aspx?oc=16&ct=OEP&eventid=5016


You know what, I've ben involved in marketing expos in quite a few very different industries and I can say that apart from te cost involved - booth can cost anywhere from Ģ30.000 to Ģ200.000 plus the expo cost which often are subscription(you commit yourself to buy space from the organiser for x consecutive years) plus other costs inolved/accomodation/flights - It's very, very expensive business for companies and the TRUTH is, ROI is close to ZERO, Z E R O!

Most people who attend are people who already use the software, what's the point? Training? New features? Can be streamed online for far bigger audience.

Gone are he days when this shows were attended by decision makers who wanted latest and greatest for their companies.

Used to work for a medical company who spent almost Ģ250k on just the booth...guess what only one surgeon was interested in their products...lol Just interested doesn't mean his hospital will buy the products.

Funnily enough this situation was quite common, when I was there for 5 years...and now the bombshell - Asked Head of Marketing, why the fudge we're doing this?! And he replied "Because our competitors do" - that probably applies to all trade shows haha.

Marander
08-02-2017, 05:18 AM
You know what, I've ben involved in marketing expos in quite a few very different industries and I can say that apart from te cost involved - booth can cost anywhere from Ģ30.000 to Ģ200.000 plus the expo cost which often are subscription(you commit yourself to buy space from the organiser for x consecutive years) plus other costs inolved/accomodation/flights - It's very, very expensive business for companies and the TRUTH is, ROI is close to ZERO, Z E R O!

Interesting info thanks. But then I ask myself how these smaller companies can have their presence (ok they have smaller booths I guess).

Nevertheless, Siggraph seems very popular, having 179 exhibitors.

But as I said, LW3DG doesn't need to be there in person but use the event's news stream to raise attention for their new product. I cannot believe they have no significant news or marketing material since the last youtube video 7 month ago.

50one
08-02-2017, 05:20 AM
Not sure, maybe shared space? Maybe grants from the government for advertising?

I do aggree tho, from marketing POV Siggraph is not needed for LW, however any sort of online presence during that time will be more than beneficial.

TheLexx
08-02-2017, 05:26 AM
I didn't know some of the deeper stuff regarding LW personal clashes. I pick up on some episodes, eg Kurv, but not others. I occasionally hear of Core but don't fully know what that was all about. Regarding Kat, I just meant it from the point of view that maybe he hears good tittle-tattle working in production so can "confirm" LW Next is looking good, like an opposite to that Bugzilla post. Also, many of you have "paid your dues" the hard way so probably don't need more training now, but more up to date LW training over the next six months is welcome to me. Combined with the wonderful news of Fusion 9, things look really good. I support Rob and Lino too. :)

GandB
08-02-2017, 06:34 AM
I missed out on the pizza analogies; but I'll offer mine anyways.

I once waited in line at a pizza drive-thru (for those familiar with Little Caesar's "Hot and Ready" pizzas; you'll know what I mean), to get a simple pepperoni pizza (just before what should have been the rush hour). What should have taken me all of five minutes, turned into a 40 minute wait. At some point, I no longer wanted the pizza; I just stayed in line out of morbid curiosity, in order to find out what was taking so god-awful long. I remember looking directly across the street at a Pizza Hut; thinking to myself "I could have ordered a fresh pizza, picked it up, and been home eating it by now". Of course, once I got to the drive-thru window, the poor girl taking orders informed me that their card machine was down and they were taking cash only (of which I had none). I proceeded to tell her that it would behoove them to put a sign on the menu....all the way at the back of the line, so people aren't waiting for nothing. Ended up getting tacos that day.

Point is (as most have already surmised by now); some of us only return here out of morbid curiosity, to see if LW3DG has actually been toiling away (everything so far as I know, is pure speculation; since their marketing team seems to be on permanent sabbatical), or if they've been wasting these last few years. Many of us have gone to the "other pizza place" by now, and probably won't be returning. It's not our fault, NT/LW3DG/Rob can blame themselves squarely for that. Communication is important; and they've completely blown that out of the water by now (or rather....long ago).

This isn't to say, that IF LW Next (or whatever it's called) is all we've dreamed it to be (bug fixes aside); that I won't take another look. But I'm no longer holding my breath. I don't want to see Lightwave die; it's one of the last programs of it's kind that hasn't gone to the subscription scheme (yet). Until then; I'll keep popping in, to see if they've decided that they actually need money (and a much larger customer base) to survive at some point.

- - - Updated - - -

I missed out on the pizza analogies; but I'll offer mine anyways.

I once waited in line at a pizza drive-thru (for those familiar with Little Caesar's "Hot and Ready" pizzas; you'll know what I mean), to get a simple pepperoni pizza (just before what should have been the rush hour). What should have taken me all of five minutes, turned into a 40 minute wait. At some point, I no longer wanted the pizza; I just stayed in line out of morbid curiosity, in order to find out what was taking so god-awful long. I remember looking directly across the street at a Pizza Hut; thinking to myself "I could have ordered a fresh pizza, picked it up, and been home eating it by now". Of course, once I got to the drive-thru window, the poor girl taking orders informed me that their card machine was down and they were taking cash only (of which I had none). I proceeded to tell her that it would behoove them to put a sign on the menu....all the way at the back of the line, so people aren't waiting for nothing. Ended up getting tacos that day.

Point is (as most have already surmised by now); some of us only return here out of morbid curiosity, to see if LW3DG has actually been toiling away (everything so far as I know, is pure speculation; since their marketing team seems to be on permanent sabbatical), or if they've been wasting these last few years. Many of us have gone to the "other pizza place" by now, and probably won't be returning. It's not our fault, NT/LW3DG/Rob can blame themselves squarely for that. Communication is important; and they've completely blown that out of the water by now (or rather....long ago).

This isn't to say, that IF LW Next (or whatever it's called) is all we've dreamed it to be (bug fixes aside); that I won't take another look. But I'm no longer holding my breath. I don't want to see Lightwave die; it's one of the last programs of it's kind that hasn't gone to the subscription scheme (yet). Until then; I'll keep popping in, to see if they've decided that they actually need money (and a much larger customer base) to survive at some point.

Chris S. (Fez)
08-02-2017, 06:47 AM
Newtek, please fix the forum. Double post bug's been plaguing the site for weeks.

Snosrap
08-02-2017, 06:51 AM
- booth can cost anywhere from Ģ30.000 to Ģ200.000 plus the expo cost which often are subscription(you commit yourself to buy space from the organiser for x consecutive years) plus other costs inolved/accomodation/flights - It's very, very expensive business for companies and the TRUTH is, ROI is close to ZERO, Z E R O! Asked Head of Marketing, why the fudge we're doing this?! And he replied "Because our competitors do" - that probably applies to all trade shows haha.

I couldn't agree more! I work for a company that actually leases a permanent showroom space for a spring and fall show every year. When I asked if it was worth it the answer I received was "We wouldn't know unless we stopped attending." So, no spike in business during the event or immediately following? No extra traffic to your website? No way of knowing there was a good ROI? So why does are company attend? :) I wasn't a business major, but gee this seems a little silly. My take - in this day and age of the internet, trade shows seem totally unnecessary. Companies should however keep in touch with their customer base! Newtek is doing a great job with their video products but somehow LW is being forgotten.

50one
08-02-2017, 07:01 AM
...I'm one of those weirdos who likes watching other people having pizza.

shrox
08-02-2017, 07:48 AM
Tacos, I hadn't considered that option.

robertoortiz
08-02-2017, 09:05 AM
Interesting info thanks. But then I ask myself how these smaller companies can have their presence (ok they have smaller booths I guess).

Nevertheless, Siggraph seems very popular, having 179 exhibitors.

But as I said, LW3DG doesn't need to be there in person but use the event's news stream to raise attention for their new product. I cannot believe they have no significant news or marketing material since the last youtube video 7 month ago.

I could not agree more

GandB
08-02-2017, 09:48 AM
There's always room for tacos.

mav3rick
08-02-2017, 10:03 AM
Oh come on! Even less worthy of comment than his "LightWave Dead" click bait, subscriber hunt.

Look I don't have an issue with people like this. No names need be mentioned. They are trying to make a living. They chose a path that requires getting hits and subscribers. Fine.

Anyone with half of a brain can see bad, controversial, click bait, trolling comments and videos get waaaaaay more response than sane and rational simple truths. They figured it out. Great. Good for them.

But lets not loose sight of the fact that this is just a bunch of B.S. from the start. Don't take it seriously.

Not even worth debating.


haha reminds me of Fori Valentines day special for MESSIAH studio :)

fablefox
08-02-2017, 11:22 AM
Funnily enough this situation was quite common, when I was there for 5 years...and now the bombshell - Asked Head of Marketing, why the fudge we're doing this?! And he replied "Because our competitors do" - that probably applies to all trade shows haha.

However, it was a correct thing to do for Blender. The kind of "eyes" they are getting there, because it wasn't average Joe that willing to spend the cost to attend SIGGRAPH, and to scream the they have arrived - standing shoulder to shoulder with other large software. Maybe they need to do enough times to reach tipping point and just stop. Blender is free after all. I frankly don't mind if Blender want to buy a year of advertising in 3D World and/or 3D Artist once 2.8 completed.

Farhad_azer
08-02-2017, 03:44 PM
You guys i know nothing about altercation between some people but dont you think some of you are a little harsh against Kat?
I read his post and it was not very rational for sure but had convincing stuffs in it. (For ex 5 years for v9 series, i personally did not know this).

We are relatively smaller group of users compared to other giant softs and if we dishearten some important figures then we make situation worst and our group and community even smaller.

I dont know kat and i live thousands of kms away from America but as far as i know he is a very important member due to his great works and tutorials.

Lets stay together stronger and more friendly.

Cheers

Asticles
08-02-2017, 04:49 PM
Great words Farhad_azer.

Thanks

jeric_synergy
08-03-2017, 01:05 AM
Kat lacks diplomacy, but he has been of great service to the LW community through bringing all sorts of training AND products (e.g. UberCAM) to market. Not to mention acts of generosity towards myself and Splinegod's widow and, I'm sure, others in the community. AND he provided a functioning outlet for many LW, uhh, tutorialists. So, cut him some slack.

Some days you just have to put up with the crazy uncle.

Surrealist.
08-03-2017, 03:16 AM
I don't think about who someone is, or what he has done. None of this matters to me. Sorry if it is coming off as harsh. I just prefer to look at things at face value. It is easier for me to evaluate information that way. And I just think some things people say or record on videos can be simply ignored. I guess that seems harsh to some people. But just how I look at it.

50one
08-03-2017, 04:06 AM
I don't think about who someone is, or what he has done. None of this matters to me. Sorry if it is coming off as harsh. I just prefer to look at things at face value. It is easier for me to evaluate information that way. And I just think some things people say or record on videos can be simply ignored. I guess that seems harsh to some people. But just how I look at it.


Yup, many people often having a trouble distinguishing being an "a55hole" from being "honest", I would rather be honest if I don't like something I will say it.

SBowie
08-03-2017, 05:53 AM
Yup, many people often having a trouble distinguishing being an "a55hole" from being "honest" ...With a little effort, it's possible to be the latter without being the former. The effort is worthwhile, if for no other reason than that it tends to keep the discussion logical rather than veering off into emotional responses that have little or nothing to do with the topic.

50one
08-03-2017, 06:29 AM
With a little effort, it's possible to be the latter without being the former. The effort is worthwhile, if for no other reason than that it tends to keep the discussion logical rather than veering off into emotional responses that have little or nothing to do with the topic.

Agree absolutely.

Norka
08-04-2017, 04:55 AM
TLDR. Too busy with tons of paying 3D work, and don't have time to hang out on the stoop with you wonderful folks, and just poking my head in to see if anything is shaking at all...

(1) Is it?

(2) From what I am gathering, LW3DG is just Rob and Lino at this point, right? No other devs, marketing peeps, etc? I haven't seen reference to one other person, as far as devs etc go.

(3) Is anyone beta testing LWN? I did see on Octane forums a ways back that Juanjo stated that LWN is stable... So at least he has access to it. Anyone else, that we know of?

(4) It is really, really time for paid beta (early access, whatever) upgrade. This is ridiculous. Thousands of us (okay, maybe only hundreds left..) would gladly slap down three hundred skins to upgrade today. We can run multiple copies of LW. Please take my money LW3DG. Does anyone know why this is not an option?

Parky
08-04-2017, 07:25 AM
Hi all, I haven't ever posted here before but have actually been working with Lightwave for about 26 years, (since it was part of the videotoaster) and I have lived through the many times that Lightwave has disappointed its user base with (primarily) silence and a lack of regular updates. I regularly log on to sites like CGChannel only to see updates of all these other apps that are (seemingly) speeding their way forward, keeping pace with the competition while Lightwave is silent. I have a copy of Modo (V10) which I play with now and again which I bought the first time Lightwave stuttered with LW Core but can't seem to tear myself away from the Lightwave- the work horse which (for me) always seem to get the job done so well. I wouldn't normally post as everyone else always covers everything that needs to be said but today I opened the latest copy of 3D World (which hasn't featured Lightwave in very long time) and read the review on "LW CAD lite 5.2" for Cinema 4D and and 3ds max. , which reads in the second paragraph "However, as Lightwave's presence continues to decline......".

Maybe it is time to take Modo seriously.

gar26lw
08-04-2017, 07:49 AM
Awesome marketing. Truly awesome! :(

Greenlaw
08-04-2017, 10:50 AM
(3) Is anyone beta testing LWN? I did see on Octane forums a ways back that Juanjo stated that LWN is stable... So at least he has access to it. Anyone else, that we know of?
The Rules of Beta Testing. 1st RULE: You do not talk about BETA TESTING. 2nd rule... :D

wingzeta
08-04-2017, 04:39 PM
Hi all, I haven't ever posted here before but have actually been working with Lightwave for about 26 years, (since it was part of the videotoaster) and I have lived through the many times that Lightwave has disappointed its user base with (primarily) silence and a lack of regular updates. I regularly log on to sites like CGChannel only to see updates of all these other apps that are (seemingly) speeding their way forward, keeping pace with the competition while Lightwave is silent. I have a copy of Modo (V10) which I play with now and again which I bought the first time Lightwave stuttered with LW Core but can't seem to tear myself away from the Lightwave- the work horse which (for me) always seem to get the job done so well. I wouldn't normally post as everyone else always covers everything that needs to be said but today I opened the latest copy of 3D World (which hasn't featured Lightwave in very long time) and read the review on "LW CAD lite 5.2" for Cinema 4D and and 3ds max. , which reads in the second paragraph "However, as Lightwave's presence continues to decline......".

Maybe it is time to take Modo seriously.

So LW CAD is moving to the competition too? I don't blame them for wanting to expand to actively marketed software, but it is a shame that one of the plugins that has been an advantage for LW, will no longer be exclusive. Remove one feather from cap, and probably lose a few archviz users with new options, in light of the communication blackout debacle. At least the term "lightwave" will become popular among C4D users as the name of a cool plugin. Sorry to have to be negative again, but at what point do all these things add up for a company, that has a real chance to be a player in the 3D industry, to maybe try doing a little damage control, through standard communication channels. It's like Business 101 common sense stuff. Come on LW3DG get a clue, we all want you to succeed.

Cue communication blackout policy defenders, comments about how I used LW to make a buck this month, and comments confusing the delay in the release, with the communication issue in 3, 2, 1...

TheLexx
08-04-2017, 05:22 PM
Cue communication blackout policy defenders, comments about how I used LW to make a buck this month, and comments confusing the delay in the release, with the communication issue in 3, 2, 1......0

We have been hard at work on the next version of LightWave so it has been a while since our last post sorry about that, we apologize.
- Rob Powers, December 7, 2016

There has been communication since from one source or the other and it is clear they are working hard on it behind the scenes. Now people want the (head of) the guy at LW Marketing. What would they say particularly that has not been articulated here and Newtek are perfectly aware of ?

I got Pa's pistol and a pitchfork, but first I needs to adjust ma dungarees.

Marander
08-04-2017, 07:02 PM
So LW CAD is moving to the competition too? I don't blame them for wanting to expand to actively marketed software, but it is a shame that one of the plugins that has been an advantage for LW, will no longer be exclusive...

Yes alive and kicking...

It doesn't have the complete feature set yet, but it actually works much better then in LW itself because it's completely non-destructive. At anytime the objects like walls, windows, fences etc. can be modified.

Great implementation from Victor & his team.

(15 minutes dabbling in LWCAD) :)

137573

prometheus
08-05-2017, 04:36 AM
(2) From what I am gathering, LW3DG is just Rob and Lino at this point, right? No other devs, marketing peeps, etc? I haven't seen reference to one other person, as far as devs etc go.



not likely the case,you got...
http://forums.newtek.com/member.php?18093-Jarno

And you may check your lightwave installation pop up and see what else there is noted about contributors, devs.
As for marketing I think they brought in someone from nvidia, not sure if that was related to newtek general or specificly or included Lightwave marketing.

Farhad_azer
08-05-2017, 06:51 AM
Great answer prometheus.

jwiede
08-06-2017, 03:13 PM
As for marketing I think they brought in someone from nvidia, not sure if that was related to newtek general or specificly or included Lightwave marketing.

In Aug 2012, ex-Nvidian Dominick Spina joined LW3DG as VP Worldwide Sales and Marketing. (https://www.lightwave3d.com/news/article/dominick-spina-new-vp-worldwide-sales-and-marketing-for-lightwave-3d-group/) However, by Jan 2013, Dominick Spina was CMO at Studiopass, and recently (Jun2016) moved to AMD. He doesn't even list LW3DG in his LinkedIn profile. (https://www.linkedin.com/in/dominickspina/) I couldn't find any announcement of a named successor for Spina's position at LW3DG.

Interpret all that as you will.

50one
08-06-2017, 03:55 PM
Well, new week is almost here, I'm really excited about that.

Verlon
08-06-2017, 04:11 PM
I met/ sort of know someone who at least got to play with LWN. That makes at least two people. No names from me though. I happen to be a short drive from San Antonio so I could run into all kinds of people in Newtek circles.

Then again, it doesn't matter how good it is if I can never get it.

jwiede
08-06-2017, 04:29 PM
Well, new week is almost here, I'm really excited about that.

Where did you see a statement suggesting there'd be news next week?

50one
08-06-2017, 04:37 PM
Where did you see a statement suggesting there'd be news next week?

One of those doom threads here last week - djwaterman said that there will be big announcement next week and he can't say more...

- - - Updated - - -


Where did you see a statement suggesting there'd be news next week?

One of those doom threads here last week - djwaterman said that there will be big announcement next week and he can't say more...

cagey5
08-06-2017, 05:01 PM
He also said it had nothing to do with lightwave.

jwiede
08-06-2017, 05:06 PM
...0

We have been hard at work on the next version of LightWave so it has been a while since our last post sorry about that, we apologize.
- Rob Powers, December 7, 2016

There has been communication since from one source or the other and it is clear they are working hard on it behind the scenes. Now people want the (head of) the guy at LW Marketing. What would they say particularly that has not been articulated here and Newtek are perfectly aware of ?


A good place to start would be showing accountability for the terrible misjudgments which led to _two years_ passing without any fix or maintenance updates released for the currently sold product, as well as describing solid, objectively-measurable-by-customers efforts they are taking to ensure such a lapse never occurs again.

TheLexx
08-06-2017, 06:17 PM
@ jwiede, a perfectly reasonable viewpoint, but you can probably guess that LW Next will have bugs, hopefully not too many, on the basis that no software tends to be at one hundred percent functionality. It will be interesting to see what emerges when the silence is broken. Beyond that, I was (maybe wrongly) feeling sorry for that one LW marketing guy working alone by candlelight who seemed about to get blasted from a thousand irate users. :D

shrox
08-06-2017, 07:31 PM
@ jwiede, a perfectly reasonable viewpoint, but you can probably guess that LW Next will have bugs, hopefully not too many, on the basis that no software tends to be at one hundred percent functionality. It will be interesting to see what emerges when the silence is broken. Beyond that, I was (maybe wrongly) feeling sorry for that one LW marketing guy working alone by candlelight who seemed about to get blasted from a thousand irate users. :D

A jar of fireflies would be cool too.

50one
08-07-2017, 01:15 AM
He also said it had nothing to do with lightwave.

https://media.tenor.com/images/5c235351599ada33a113e6f00398d1ee/tenor.gif

SBowie
08-07-2017, 11:17 AM
Please please let it be the impeachment hearings starting!Puh-lease, let's not go down this road. I'm sure it was an attempt at a little light humor, but any further posts in this vein with have a very short half-life.

Verlon
08-07-2017, 03:01 PM
He also said it had nothing to do with lightwave.

Videoscape 2017 for the Commodore Amiga finally sees the light of day? There has been no love for Videoscape in decades I tell you.

- - - Updated - - -


He also said it had nothing to do with lightwave.

Videoscape 2017 for the Commodore Amiga finally sees the light of day? There has been no love for Videoscape in decades I tell you.

sami
08-07-2017, 11:01 PM
You know what, I've ben involved in marketing expos in quite a few very different industries and I can say that apart from te cost involved - booth can cost anywhere from Ģ30.000 to Ģ200.000 plus the expo cost which often are subscription(you commit yourself to buy space from the organiser for x consecutive years) plus other costs inolved/accomodation/flights - It's very, very expensive business for companies and the TRUTH is, ROI is close to ZERO, Z E R O!

Most people who attend are people who already use the software, what's the point? Training? New features? Can be streamed online for far bigger audience.

Gone are he days when this shows were attended by decision makers who wanted latest and greatest for their companies.

Used to work for a medical company who spent almost Ģ250k on just the booth...guess what only one surgeon was interested in their products...lol Just interested doesn't mean his hospital will buy the products.

Funnily enough this situation was quite common, when I was there for 5 years...and now the bombshell - Asked Head of Marketing, why the fudge we're doing this?! And he replied "Because our competitors do" - that probably applies to all trade shows haha.

30,000 pounds???

this pdf says it's USD $345 - they should spend that on a team lunch
https://sa2016.siggraph.org/images/downloads/exhibitors_and_sponsors/To-Exhibit-Cost-of-Exhibiting.pdf

SIGGRAPH Asia but I bet it's not too far off this

erikals
08-08-2017, 01:29 PM
well, not quite, it takes quite a bit preparation to set up a booth + content.

so if you add hours to that cost, it would be high in terms of cash and time.

certainly not blaming LWG for skipping Siggraph this year, and other years.

---------------

oh, by the way... quotes on silence...
https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/silence.html

my tweaked favourite >
Silence is a Test of Great Strength

prometheus
08-08-2017, 01:38 PM
Yes alive and kicking...

It doesn't have the complete feature set yet, but it actually works much better then in LW itself because it's completely non-destructive. At anytime the objects like walls, windows, fences etc. can be modified.


137573

Thatīs sort of what I wanted and requested some years ago for me to be REALLY interested in lwCAD..like it would really make me wanna go and get it, still awaits for it for LW before purchase, and it will probably be a long time still..considering we wonīt see any drastic modeling changes for the next lightwave, they really need to get going with some modeling stack history once they are finnished with the next lightwave, wishful thinking is that they may actully be trying it our or have it in a sack somewhere with just some need for polishing. ...so ASAP please.

erikals
08-08-2017, 02:35 PM
Yeah, I haven't used LightWave in a long time but I must say that, having used every piece of software to complete projects since, every community has these same issues with their software application and developers.

Erikals, you've been here long enough I'd be surprised if the cycle of releases/feedback could even surprise you anymore. ;D

Absolutely, no App has it all.

:) and too true, i have stopped surprising myself.
knowing history, it's easier to foresee LightWave's future with higher accuracy.
in short terms, as a reminder, it goes something like this >

Modeler / Layout split, PC - 1994          ...it should never have been made split
6 people leave LW to form Modo - 2001  ...surely must have left a Titanic mark
FiberFX is bought - 2008                    ...the plugin turns out to have quite a few bugs, a questionable decision
Core - 2009                                    ...coders at NT aimed too high, project had to be abandoned
Bug fixer Ikeda leaves - 2014              ...years of bug-squash experience lost


explains why LightWave is far behind. to conclude, some bad decisions and some though luck.

50one
08-08-2017, 02:46 PM
30,000 pounds???

this pdf says it's USD $345 - they should spend that on a team lunch
https://sa2016.siggraph.org/images/downloads/exhibitors_and_sponsors/To-Exhibit-Cost-of-Exhibiting.pdf

SIGGRAPH Asia but I bet it's not too far off this

The space might cost peanuts, the actual 'booth' custom designed, with all furniture and whatever can cost up to 120k plus transportation costs:)

Surrealist.
08-08-2017, 03:00 PM
The split app of Modeler and Layout was not 1994. It was VideoScape 3D and Modeler. Two separate apps that already existed since 1988. They were brought together and renamed LlightWave 3D for the Video Toaster release in 1990. I think the reasoning for them to be split at the time they were originally released in 1988 was due to hardware limitations. I am kind of guessing that if Layout did not need to see geometry it would save on needed memory to render? Something like that. But anyway, obviously the technology moved forward while LightWave did not. 1994 was the first release of the stand alone version of LightWave... yeah! Freedom!

TheLexx
08-08-2017, 03:27 PM
The split app of Modeler and Layout was not 1994. It was VideoScape 3D and Modeler. Two separate apps that already existed since 1988. They were brought together and renamed LlightWave 3D for the Video Toaster release in 1990. I think the reasoning for them to be split at the time they were originally released in 1988 was due to hardware limitations. I am kind of guessing that if Layout did not need to see geometry it would save on needed memory to render? Something like that. But anyway, obviously the technology moved forward while LightWave did not. 1994 was the first release of the stand alone version of LightWave... yeah! Freedom!Speaking purely as a Babylon 5 viewer, I remember hearing that the show was shot on 35mm film but the completed output with special effects only rendered in standard definition NTSC because "they needed computers to catch up in the future". I guess that would have had to do with Lightwave at the time.

rustythe1
08-08-2017, 04:50 PM
Speaking purely as a Babylon 5 viewer, I remember hearing that the show was shot on 35mm film but the completed output with special effects only rendered in standard definition NTSC because "they needed computers to catch up in the future". I guess that would have had to do with Lightwave at the time.

yes, most shows from B5 onwards were shot on 35mm then cut directly to video along with the effects at the same time, previous to that they were cut back onto 35mm and then the effects were added, the unfortunate side of that is that there is no 35mm pre effect cut of the show to reapply the effects for bluray releases, it took a very large amount of funding to create HD versions of STNG as they had to essentially go back to the original 35mm, re cut the film to match each episode and then create all the effects from scratch to also match the original show as none of the original material existed, but with shows like STOS they just had to clean up the old 35mm as essentially its already about 8K, unfortunately due to the cost of that shows like B5, DS9, voyager will never see an upscale re release as TNG proved too expensive. I expect WB lost most the original footage anyway when they lost all the old CG models and files.

rustythe1
08-08-2017, 04:57 PM
oddly B5 was shown in 1.87:1 widescreen so in that respect it was ahead of its time also as wide screen broadcasts and tvs didn't come around until about 97/98, the first b5 would have been shot in 93 for a 94 release, but this must also mean the resolution must have been lower than a standard 4.3:1

Verlon
08-08-2017, 05:17 PM
Ahh, B5. so far ahead of its time. So under-appreciated. So Lightwave.

If only Garibaldi was here to 'extract' information about the new Lightwave release. He was always good about unearthing secrets and circumventing security.

erikals
08-08-2017, 05:28 PM
The split app of Modeler and Layout was not 1994. It was VideoScape 3D and Modeler. Two separate apps that already existed since 1988.

talking PC version here, not Amiga. [fixed]

continuing the split was a bad decision for sure, but too late to regret it i guess...

Surrealist.
08-08-2017, 11:11 PM
Oh I see you mean the first PC version as split. I see. I read that wrong. But I think the PC version was not til 1995. 1994 was the first stand alone, and was Amiga. Right? Based on my memory anyway. No matter though. :)

DogBoy
08-09-2017, 01:34 AM
talking PC version here, not Amiga. [fixed]

continuing the split was a bad decision for sure, but too late to regret it i guess...

Oh, c'mon, it was a port, not a rewrite. Of course they were going to keep the 2 apps then.

Surrealist.
08-09-2017, 02:40 AM
I think it had to be more to do with hardware limitations of LightWave's current and intended platform. And secondly time constraints considering where things were going in the industry at that time. (1994-1998)

The window of time I think to do it was when they did start doing it which was what became Modo. So you can not really blame the developers for not being on the ball at the right time, considering where they had come from. They were. Right on time. Modo is now in the mix as a fairly Modern app for modeling animation and FX. They have a lite version, you can get it on Steam it has great tools. And so on.

It is a completely separate issue to look at what happened with LightWave after that point. (2000ish).

So I don't think it is fair to say the developers dropped the ball. It was management. And now, they are paying for it. ;)

erikals
08-09-2017, 02:55 AM
Oh, c'mon, it was a port, not a rewrite. Of course they were going to keep the 2 apps then.
i highly doubt it was a direct port.

there must have been major differences between Amiga-PC
merging Modeler / Layout must also have been way easier back in 94/95 as there was way less code clutter.


So I don't think it is fair to say the developers dropped the ball.
didn't say this at all from what i can see, but surely someone did something.  :)

------------------

however it seems Layout is going in the right direction these days.
not sure what will happen to Modeler.

DogBoy
08-09-2017, 06:01 AM
i highly doubt it was a direct port.

there must have been major differences between Amiga-PC
merging Modeler / Layout must also have been way easier back in 94/95 as there was way less code clutter.

I'm sure it would have been easier, but you are trying to cherry-pick the facts to meet your narrative. Hindsight is 20/20.
LW4 was when LW appeared on Alpha and PC, and 5 was when Mac and SGI was added. They were ports. There was no hub, so Stuart and Allen were in charge of their respective app. No rewrite was done until LW6, when the Amiga had been dropped. Or at least, that is my reading of it all.

I'd also question some of your phrasing:

6 people leave LW to form Modo - 2001  ...surely must have left a Titanic mark
FiberFX is bought - 2008                    ...the plugin turns out to have quite a few bugs, a questionable decision
Core - 2009                                    ...coders at NT aimed too high, project had to be abandoned
Bug fixer Ikeda leaves - 2014              ...years of bug-squash experience lost
I love Ikeda as much as the next guy, but he was never a "bug-fixer". Sure, he busted plenty of bugs, but his legacy is putting in the ground work on LWNext, by developing Hydra that is the heart of the new geometry engine.
He himself said he didn't play well with others, and he wasn't the first to go. Those left know the code probably as well, if not better than he did. Both Jamie Finch and Bob Hood, for instance, have been dealing with LW since the late 90s.
I'm assuming you name check him because he was very front facing by posting here, and you liked him, but your choice of examples is arbitrary: What has the purchase of FiberFX got to do with anything, except to show how difficult it is to integrate plug-ins to the old code (that the Luxology crew were responsible for BTW)?
You spotlight Ikeda, but ignore Jonas leaving after CORE, which died due to pressure from the community as much as anything. The "history" is messy and nuanced. Try not to clean it up to fit your argument.

https://web.archive.org/web/20090409030557/http://www.lightwiki.com:80/LightWave_History

erikals
08-09-2017, 07:47 AM
if that is your view on my take, then it's pointless to argue.
but hey, i'm a sport, so...


You spotlight Ikeda, but ignore Jonas leaving after CORE
i forgot to mention Jonas, it's that simple. i didn't ignore him, why would i?
i could of course mention Roth as well, and person x and y.


The "history" is messy and nuanced. Try not to clean it up to fit your argument.
you are saying Ikeda was not a bug fixer. please pick up the phone, cause Ikeda, according to himself, disagrees with you.
so yeah, please stick to history.

DogBoy
08-09-2017, 10:23 AM
you are saying Ikeda was not a bug fixer. please pick up the phone, cause Ikeda, according to himself, disagrees with you.
so yeah, please stick to history.


Ikeda can say he was anything he likes, but you know and I know that he was much more than that. You are just trying to use it to justify your opinion.

OK, I vented a bit more than I should have, but your points we heavily editorialised: you chose them, and presented them, to reinforce a narrative. A narrative based largely on supposition.
I was just trying to counter the fact that you had framed every one of your points as a negative.

hrgiger
08-09-2017, 10:25 AM
I would say most of what Ikeda did at lw3dg was fix bugs. He wasn't an architect so he could only write tools using the SDK, not make changes to the actual SDK itself. What he could do was constantly fix instability that was introduced into Modeler when changes were introduced into Layout by other members of the team.

As far as his contribution to LW Next, I would say that's likely close to nil. His experiments into a new geometry engine for modeler led to them packaging that up and calling it chronosculpt and selling it as a separate application. How much of the "new" geo engine in Layout in Next is actually based on David's work that resulted in chronosculpt I would call highly suspect. Sort of like they said they were going to continue to use CORE as a testbed for new features in LightWave, I would just be surprised if that was actually the case.

prometheus
08-09-2017, 10:34 AM
In Aug 2012, ex-Nvidian Dominick Spina joined LW3DG as VP Worldwide Sales and Marketing. (https://www.lightwave3d.com/news/article/dominick-spina-new-vp-worldwide-sales-and-marketing-for-lightwave-3d-group/) However, by Jan 2013, Dominick Spina was CMO at Studiopass, and recently (Jun2016) moved to AMD. He doesn't even list LW3DG in his LinkedIn profile. (https://www.linkedin.com/in/dominickspina/) I couldn't find any announcement of a named successor for Spina's position at LW3DG.

Interpret all that as you will.

Thanks for the information jwiede, It may serve the person I answered to with too loose information quite well, for me personally.. I will not even bother interpreting it, have no real need for it or any energy speculate...itīs up to the lw team to handle and it is really of no good use for me to follow, that said..may work for others...thanks.
We need persons that keep track of development team and perhaps marketing...Itīs the only way to be sure :)

DogBoy
08-09-2017, 10:39 AM
As far as his contribution to LW Next, I would say that's likely close to nil. His experiments into a new geometry engine for modeler led to them packaging that up and calling it chronosculpt and selling it as a separate application. How much of the "new" geo engine in Layout in Next is actually based on David's work that resulted in chronosculpt I would call highly suspect. Sort of like they said they were going to continue to use CORE as a testbed for new features in LightWave, I would just be surprised if that was actually the case.

True, we won't know for sure, but Rob did say it used Hydra*. Make of that what you will.

*: OK, his actual words were


Another relevant thing to point out is that the unified mesh system which we have implemented in LightWave Layout is an improved version of the modern mesh system which we developed for ChronoSculpt.

erikals
08-09-2017, 10:50 AM
Ikeda can say he was anything he likes, but you know and I know that he was much more than that.
if you know better, i'm curious to know where you got that info, cause it does not compute with his claims, at all.

You are just trying to use it to justify your opinion..
...okay...

OK, I vented a bit more than I should have, but your points we heavily editorialised: you chose them, and presented them, to reinforce a narrative. A narrative based largely on supposition.
I was just trying to counter the fact that you had framed every one of your points as a negative.
"you had framed every one of your points as a negative"
i'm pointing out unlucky bumps in the road, nothing more or less. if someone read it as "NT can't do a single thing right" that's an interpretation, and a wrong one.

jwiede
08-09-2017, 10:50 AM
you are saying Ikeda was not a bug fixer. please pick up the phone, cause Ikeda, according to himself, disagrees with you.
so yeah, please stick to history.

You've failed to mention his work on LW11's "New Tools", clear demonstration he did a LOT more than just fix bugs.

erikals
08-09-2017, 11:12 AM
arguing with Ikeda's own quotes now?
gosh...

don't get stuck on that one specific line, please. besides, that's like missing the "whole point of the 5 points" anyway.

please stop talking about Ikeda if you're not familiar with what HE wrote on this forum, the Liberty forum, rendering.de and his facebook channel including the video comments. thanks.
if you got a better more reliable source on Ikeda's work than Ikeda himself, please share.

shrox
08-09-2017, 11:33 AM
There are four lights!

erikals
08-09-2017, 12:01 PM
i'm certainly starting to feel like Picard.

Wickedpup
08-09-2017, 12:29 PM
From Ikedas Linkedin page:


Hydra Engine:
- implemented Hydra engine, a complete framework for 3D development including geometry library, scripting, plugin architecture, localization, history, proprietary, OpenGL-based UI with layout management, scene graph, envelope systems, etc.
- full development of ChronoSculpt with the exception of interchange plugins, licensing, and some porting aid: a product spawned off from my engine's demonstration of what it can do in terms of realtime, whole-mesh geometry processing, The software went from most basic prototype to shipped product in 5 months with ports to 3 separate platforms with a worldwide Siggraph demo within the first two months of development.

LightWave and CORE:
- deformation-friendly BVH for solid picking in LightWave Modeler based on mesh connectivity rather than spatial partitioning (proprietary algorithm).
- numerous modeling tools for LightWave Modeler and LightWave CORE.
- polygonal mesh system for LightWave CORE.
- undo system for LightWave CORE.
- OpenGL geometry pipeline for LightWave CORE.
- numerous improvements to the base architecture of LightWave CORE including the introduction of a weak referencing type to its garbage collector.
- a uniform GUI API for LightWave CORE
- a number of SWIG bindings for LightWave CORE and expanded Python to support runtime GUI development.
- gizmo interaction system for LightWave CORE.
- preselection highlighting and geometry picking for LightWave CORE
- command system in LightWave CORE
- the common, STL-compliant aggregates used throughout CORE and its SDK
- Fixed over a thousand unique bugs in LW Modeler over the course of 3 years.


I leave it to you guys to determine if he was only a Bug Fixer or not

prometheus
08-09-2017, 01:55 PM
You've failed to mention his work on LW11's "New Tools", clear demonstration he did a LOT more than just fix bugs.

I want ikedas skelegon meshing, that is similar to blenders skin modifier, in lightwave...soooon:)

erikals
08-09-2017, 02:23 PM
From Ikedas Linkedin page:


Hydra Engine:
- implemented Hydra engine, a complete framework for 3D development including geometry library, scripting, plugin architecture, localization, history, proprietary, OpenGL-based UI with layout management, scene graph, envelope systems, etc.
- full development of ChronoSculpt with the exception of interchange plugins, licensing, and some porting aid: a product spawned off from my engine's demonstration of what it can do in terms of realtime, whole-mesh geometry processing, The software went from most basic prototype to shipped product in 5 months with ports to 3 separate platforms with a worldwide Siggraph demo within the first two months of development.


LightWave and CORE:
- deformation-friendly BVH for solid picking in LightWave Modeler based on mesh connectivity rather than spatial partitioning (proprietary algorithm).
- numerous modeling tools for LightWave Modeler and LightWave CORE.
- polygonal mesh system for LightWave CORE.
- undo system for LightWave CORE.
- OpenGL geometry pipeline for LightWave CORE.
- numerous improvements to the base architecture of LightWave CORE including the introduction of a weak referencing type to its garbage collector.
- a uniform GUI API for LightWave CORE
- a number of SWIG bindings for LightWave CORE and expanded Python to support runtime GUI development.
- gizmo interaction system for LightWave CORE.
- preselection highlighting and geometry picking for LightWave CORE
- command system in LightWave CORE
- the common, STL-compliant aggregates used throughout CORE and its SDK

- Fixed over a thousand unique bugs in LW Modeler over the course of 3 years.


I leave it to you guys to determine if he was only a Bug Fixer or not

you can pretty much delete all lines using the word CORE, as clearly he wasn't a bugfixer on the CORE project, that wouldn't make sense, would it.
Hydra was pretty much something he did himself, not orders from NT.

>> but clearly some here are missing the point of the post [665] anyway. <<
Congratulations, i now know who actually reads my posts, and the ones who catches a word or two randomly, puts the result together, and makes a fine soup.
do people actually -READ- these days. ???

to the ones who do, thank you.

Surrealist.
08-09-2017, 02:40 PM
Fair enough but he said himself the opposite about Hydra. It was not his project and he was not even happy about it really. He said he did it under Rob's direction.

I'd probably have to dig it up. But it would take time. I am lazy... think he went into a rant about that on Facebook. But also be warned that at one point he mentioned something about deleting his posts often. So it might not even be there.... lol Sorry.

But if your point was that David was a loss. I can agree. I think he is a brilliant mind. And I hope he does not give up on his project. It looked real exiting.

erikals
08-09-2017, 02:58 PM
He said he did it under Rob's direction.
...yep, after Ikeda had worked on it "in the basement". i could go into further detail, about original source and all that, but it's another (long) story.


But if your point was that David was a loss. I can agree.
yes, that was it. unfortunately some got caught up in that one sentence not being 100%...


I think he is a brilliant mind. And I hope he does not give up on his project. It looked real exiting.
yes, not following FB, and the last update i saw from him was in 2016 or so... hope his work continues.

Surrealist.
08-09-2017, 03:22 PM
I did not hear him say anything about originating it in the basement. That's interesting.

Yeah he has been off Facebook for a while. The realities of life getting in the way of his dream project. Lord knows I can understand that... lol

erikals
08-09-2017, 03:49 PM
I did not hear him say anything about originating it in the basement. That's interesting.
figure of speech :) but takes too long to track down that source text.


The realities of life getting in the way of his dream project. Lord knows I can understand that... lol
too true  :)  however, like i said some time back, the future of 3D never looked brighter, never was a better time to get into Cad / FX


:lwicon:

DogBoy
08-10-2017, 02:21 AM
i'm pointing out unlucky bumps in the road, nothing more or less. if someone read it as "NT can't do a single thing right" that's an interpretation, and a wrong one.
Well, you followed up every "bump" with an opinion, and gave an supposition as a summation.


Modeler / Layout split, PC - 1994          ...it should never have been made split
6 people leave LW to form Modo - 2001  ...surely must have left a Titanic mark
FiberFX is bought - 2008                    ...the plugin turns out to have quite a few bugs, a questionable decision
Core - 2009                                    ...coders at NT aimed too high, project had to be abandoned
Bug fixer Ikeda leaves - 2014              ...years of bug-squash experience lost
explains why LightWave is far behind. to conclude, some bad decisions and some tough luck.

Your point is that LW is in a flagging position due to bad management.


please stop talking about Ikeda if you're not familiar with what HE wrote on this forum, the Liberty forum, rendering.de and his facebook channel including the video comments. thanks.
if you got a better more reliable source on Ikeda's work than Ikeda himself, please share.

I'm not going touch this, except to say you paraphrased everything he has said, and ask us to assume that what you said is correct. When Wickedpup actually quotes him, you ask us to ignore that because you know better, but don't give evidence.
But at least we all agree that Ikeda leaving was a great loss.

DogBoy
08-10-2017, 02:28 AM
But as you pointed out a page or 2 back, this is a pointless argument. Let's take it to PM if you want, but let's not waste everyone elses time on it.

50one
08-10-2017, 02:34 AM
But as you pointed out a page or 2 back, this is a pointless argument. Let's take it to PM if you want, but let's not waste everyone elses time on it.

Yes, feel free to use PM and maybe invite that dude who did "What killed LW" on youtube lo.

Marander
08-10-2017, 02:47 AM
too true  :)  however, like i said some time back, the future of 3D never looked brighter, never was a better time to get into Cad / FX


I agree from a technical, artistic and hobby point of view, yes absolutely, very interesting times!

From a financial perspective I'm glad I didn't decide in a career that involves 3D, CAD, VFX or any kind of graphics business (looking at wages/salaries/compensation and how many brilliant graduates don't have decent jobs, no proper payment, the amount of students in this area, the struggling of freelancers, the stress and overtime in large studios etc.).

Not saying this applies to everyone, there are always exceptions of course, just my general observation.

DogBoy
08-10-2017, 04:46 AM
yes, feel free to use pm and maybe invite that dude who did "what killed lw" on youtube lo.

Oh god, no :D

Surrealist.
08-10-2017, 05:32 AM
No. Lets invite him here and see how long he can keep up on one of these threads. I have a question or two. :D

ianr
08-10-2017, 05:43 AM
No. Lets invite him here and see how long he can keep up on one of these threads. I have a question or two. :D


Bring him on, will he have the Cojones?

(As long as we are as nice as possible to him in a accomodating in a S. Bowie)

Surrealist.
08-10-2017, 06:08 AM
lol... oh we are already so nice to each other. So I don't see the issue. With a guy like that it will be a love fest. People will be saying "get a room..." lol

So yes. Let's get prepared. Everyone gather around the fire, hold hands, who plays guitar? Oh, Spinland. Great.

Everyone sway to the music....Ready?

OK everybody sing!

"Kum by Ya..."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPN3Fv2aJhE

If we chant long enough it might just happen.

ianr
08-12-2017, 04:56 AM
i'll bring the Clamps!

50one
08-12-2017, 06:48 AM
i'll bring the Clamps!

Nipple clamps?

Surrealist.
08-12-2017, 07:59 AM
Just for starters. Make him feel at home first.

Sensei
08-12-2017, 08:55 AM
Modeler / Layout split, PC - 1994          ...it should never have been made split

What on Earth are you talking about... ?
Modeler and Layout were separate even on AmigaOS LightWave v3.5.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j37F7kZeyPE
Layout is just renamed "VideoScape 3D"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LightWave_3D
"In 1988, Allen Hastings created a rendering and animation program called VideoScape 3D, and his friend Stuart Ferguson created a complementary 3D modeling program called Modeler, both sold by Aegis Software. NewTek planned to incorporate VideoScape and Modeler into its video editing suite, Video Toaster. Originally intended to be called "NewTek 3D Animation System for the Amiga", Hastings later came up with the name "LightWave 3D", inspired by two contemporary high-end 3D packages: Intelligent Light and Wavefront. In 1990, the Video Toaster suite was released, incorporating LightWave 3D, and running on the Commodore Amiga computer."

On any 16/32 bit computer separation can be advantage, because of limited memory usage.
If you're using Layout and just rendering scene, you don't need to have Modeler and the all its unique plugins loaded at the same time.
Smaller memory usage, therefor bigger objects and scenes are possible to be loaded by application.
On computer which has 1 MB built-in memory it's huge, huge difference and advantage.

erikals
08-12-2017, 09:08 AM
aaaah, here we go again...

i'm getting into LoL mode now...

50one
08-12-2017, 10:15 AM
What about those nipple clamps?

hrgiger
08-12-2017, 10:38 AM
On any 16/32 bit computer separation can be advantage, because of limited memory usage.
If you're using Layout and just rendering scene, you don't need to have Modeler and the all its unique plugins loaded at the same time.
Smaller memory usage, therefor bigger objects and scenes are possible to be loaded by application.
On computer which has 1 MB built-in memory it's huge, huge difference and advantage.

Yeah in 1994 it was an advantage.... Now its just a drawback.

Surrealist.
08-12-2017, 02:53 PM
What about those nipple clamps?

I think we should be accommodating and ask him which kind he uses at home, first. It is the hospitable thing to do.

Surrealist.
08-12-2017, 03:02 PM
What on Earth are you talking about... ?


Hey man, come on in. Make yourself at home. Most people are in the living room but you can feel free to roam the whole house. A few are gathered out by the pool. You can hang your coat in the closet in the anti room. Fruit punch is in the dinning room. Hors d'oeuvres in the kitchen. There is a wet bar in the den. And last but not least, whipe that serious look off your face. Lighten up. It's a party for Christ sakes! Enjoy!

pinkmouse
08-12-2017, 03:50 PM
You'll always find me in the kitchen at parties... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62eTq8ErUOQ)

MichaelT
08-13-2017, 10:36 AM
Ah.. that mod track... the memories :)

scallahan1
08-13-2017, 01:10 PM
That song is dated, but kind of catchy. :)

RudySchneider
08-21-2017, 08:25 AM
I know there are multiple threads devoted to whining about LightWave Next, or the lack thereof, but I'm sure several others saw the "Proof of Life" portion of this (http://mailchi.mp/b78ab8b7dbc0/liberty3dcom-news?e=9826d97bff) ad from Liberty 3D.

ELinder
08-21-2017, 08:52 AM
So two weeks after Newtek comes out and basically says, we know you're frustrated by the lack of a release or even updates on our progress but we're still working on it, you'd think they would at the very least write up a quick official blog post about what's going on. Customers should not have to wade thru unofficial Facebook pages nor mine umpteen forum posts to get any sort of official information. At times like this when you have no new release or patch to talk about is exactly when you should be devoting more to keep your current customers satisfied, not completely ignoring them. In the past I've updated my LW license even when I knew I probably wouldn't be using it much because I wanted to support the company. I won't make that mistake again. Our faith in a company and product should go both ways.

This is so frustrating because it feels like Newtek is shooting itself in the foot but doesn't realize it or doesn't care.

Erich

erikals
08-21-2017, 09:18 AM
Christmas 2017.

Paul_Boland
08-21-2017, 10:01 AM
I know there are multiple threads devoted to whining about LightWave Next, or the lack thereof, but I'm sure several others saw the "Proof of Life" portion of this (http://mailchi.mp/b78ab8b7dbc0/liberty3dcom-news?e=9826d97bff) ad from Liberty 3D.

Thanks for the link. It's all good that some Lightwave developers have seen the next version and are saying don't worry, it's going to be great, but when the average user has no clue what's going on, posts like that just frustrate.

hrgiger
08-21-2017, 12:18 PM
Which is silly since we saw several feature updates to LW 9 in that time. In 2015, none.

jwiede
08-21-2017, 12:29 PM
Christmas 2017.

You appear to be confusing "prediction" with interval tracking.

jwiede
08-21-2017, 12:33 PM
Which is silly since we saw several feature updates to LW 9 in that time. In 2015, none.

There was also an ongoing open beta which gave existing customers a fairly accurate sense of how far they were from v9 releases.

erikals
08-21-2017, 12:52 PM
Christmas 2017.

You appear to be confusing "prediction" with interval tracking.

not impossible.  :santa:

Wickedpup
08-21-2017, 03:35 PM
.......or doesn't care.
The head of the nail right there........ :D

pming
08-21-2017, 08:22 PM
Hiya!

To all you nay-sayers...I'm with ya.
To everyone, I just upgraded to LW 2015.

Why? Well, at this point I'm *still* thinking of it as "a gamble". So, even though it was against my better judgement, I ponied up the $520 Canadian to upgrade. I am basically considering this money as a "write-off"...as in gambling...as in I don't expect anything more from LW3DG. Even if they do put out an update...unless it is such a monumental update and innovation to modern 3D graphics...I will never truly trust LW3DG. Harsh words, sure, but they've earned it as far as I'm concerned. I'm still kinda sore over the whole CORE fiasco, to be honest (...don't' even get me started on Softimage and Autodesk...!).

Now, all that said, I still believe LW as a really nice interface (hotkeys make no sense to me, but whatever), and I do like the general "feel" of the software. Once you are 'in' a tools settings, most of them are decipherable to someone like me who uses other software most of the time. The biggest problem I have is LW's "scatterbrained locations" of these tools. Someone who has been using LW for 15+ years has no problem, and probably finds other softwares name/location of things confusing (kinda like someone who learned 3D on Blender...totally different "3D mindset" from everyone else in the world).

Anyway, just figured I'd take a chance...one last chance...to see if LW3DG can pull it out of the fire at the last second. If LW Next does turn out to be an actual major improvement, and their forecast for the ".5 update" of it's future includes a focus on the modeling side of things, well, then my long shot gamble would have paid off. If not...well, it was fun while it lasted (just like gambling...). So, LW3DG, I guess the general LW community is Calling your bet. Time to show your cards in the next release...when we can all see if you were holding that Royal Flush, or just Bluffing.

gar26lw
08-22-2017, 07:51 AM
Welcome to the club

https://media.giphy.com/media/gpP18dtmlplle/giphy.gif

sami
08-23-2017, 12:29 AM
The space might cost peanuts, the actual 'booth' custom designed, with all furniture and whatever can cost up to 120k plus transportation costs:)

We're talking about a presence at SIGGRAPH not a massive floorspace dome with dancing girls and live holographic effects. Last year i saw a number of indie developers on the main floor with a small booth and 1or 2 guys sharing shifts and it can be done to make an appearance without going full hog. The Natron compositor guys were right next to NVidia and got a ton of traffic

hrgiger
08-23-2017, 01:50 AM
Its better to not show at all than to have an underwhelming showing. And just seems like they're not ready to show anything.

Verlon
08-23-2017, 09:17 AM
I remember reading the liner notes for Boston's Third Stage album.
"How to make a record in just 6 years." Tom noted that 175 light bulbs burned out in the studio before he did. Lightwave may get close to that, even using LEDs. :)

jeric_synergy
08-23-2017, 09:42 AM
Guys: they can't be bothered to update a blog. They certainly aren't going to stage ANY presence at a convention.

The same effort involved could go into writing twelve blog posts and doling them out over a year, to toss to the jackals monthly.

sami
08-23-2017, 04:25 PM
Its better to not show at all than to have an underwhelming showing. And just seems like they're not ready to show anything.

I disagree - I'd rather know there's a heartbeat than be snubbed by my vendor - I mean it's not like it's a secret to their competitors (who don't see LW as competition anyway) that anything less than a giant showing will mean they're suffering.

And with your logic then NT is doing the right thing, since it's better to be silent than communicate with us customers.

jasonwestmas
08-23-2017, 05:21 PM
Its better to not show at all than to have an underwhelming showing. And just seems like they're not ready to show anything.

That might be true if the overwhelming was the previous standing. Starving people don't expect a feast so to speak.

rustythe1
08-23-2017, 05:27 PM
and in the very first blog post, "This approach allowed us to make good progress toward our goals without completely going dark for a long period or disrupting the system as we continued to advance LightWave forward "

samurai_x
08-23-2017, 11:54 PM
and in the very first blog post, "This approach allowed us to make good progress toward our goals without completely going dark for a long period or disrupting the system as we continued to advance LightWave forward "

HAHAHA.
Softimage all over again.

gar26lw
08-24-2017, 05:48 AM
I disagree - I'd rather know there's a heartbeat than be snubbed by my vendor - I mean it's not like it's a secret to their competitors (who don't see LW as competition anyway) that anything less than a giant showing will mean they're suffering.

And with your logic then NT is doing the right thing, since it's better to be silent than communicate with us customers.

Who needs customers anyway; they're so annoying and you have to talk to them!

Surrealist.
08-24-2017, 06:34 AM
A dark silence for a long time I this case is actually 15 years or more.

CORE was Newtek's Modo.

You can't do that in 3 years.

LightWave could not go dark for 15 years.

So instead they developed LW over these last 4 or 5 years. They have only been dark for less than 2 of that. Compare to CORE which would have been 15 to 20.

Is it any surprise there is a margin of error out of 15 to 20 years of 1 or 2?

samurai_x
08-24-2017, 07:10 AM
If you're comparing it to Modo its a complete fail.
Modo didn't go dark for 15 years. So why do you think Lightwave would go dark for 15 years if they continued Core? Modo was in steady development and probably now have more users than lightwave. But its not saying much since that's a tiny fraction of AD userbase.

Lux was always much much much better in communicating than anytime post Rob. Thank Brad for his people skills.

gerry_g
08-24-2017, 07:14 AM
But wasn't Modo only around five years to first release, very unstable half finished first release, but first release none the less, still the record goes to the bible for announcements of this nature, there is supposed to be a second comping and apparently its still on but no-one has given a firm date for it in thousands of years.

Surrealist.
08-24-2017, 07:54 AM
If you're comparing it to Modo its a complete fail.
Modo didn't go dark for 15 years. So why do you think Lightwave would go dark for 15 years if they continued Core?

Simple. CORE was promised as a quick replacement of LightWave. To satisfy LightWave curent customers at the time who where screaming for this, they absolutely had to promise it would have all features in a few years. LightWave users were relying on LightWave for more than just modeling. And that is what we wanted. We wanted modern rigging and animation tools and an updated modeling toolset. That demand had reached a fever pitch just before the release of CORE. I was there. I recall it well. I left LightWave behind at that point for these exact reasons.

Modo by contrast did not have to satisfy an existing user base. They could release Modo as a stand-alone product. First as a modeler. It took a good 10 years before they even released the first realistic promise - and promise only mind you - of animation tools and FX. And they are not really even finished with that. Yet it is now finally a decent feature set. 17 years in the making.

By contrast, LightWave as we had known it, and that the customers expected, would have had to continue to be used as an end to end product. So yes no matter now you break it down, LightWave would have to go dark for 15-20 years to re-emerge as a fully working stand along product. If they had followed the CORE tack, that would have meant releasing a "Modo-like" stand alone unfinished product hat gradually over the next 15-20 years matured into an end-to-end product.

This is why for a time, they tried to develop CORE in parallel with LightWave -as soon as they realized the reality of what it would take to finish CORE. But again that was not efficient.

And the decision was made to scrap that plan and develop only LightWave, keeping the end-to-end features intact while infusing the new technology so that LightWave as we knew it - and many were relying on it for - could remain as a working end-to-end product. (and as a note it is not surprising that LightWave has survived through the years as a rendering solution along side other apps, as the end-to end solution use trailed off due to old technology)

The problem is, that no matter which tack they took they were going to loose customers. Because there is no way that by now, even with CORE they would have a fully working app. People would have long since left to use Blender, Maya, XSI. 3D Max and so on to get the tools they needed and wanted and were demanding from LightWave.

Does not matter how you shake it down. Either LightWave development stops or halts while CORE continues and slowly matures or they develop core within LightWave's tool set.

It is like a physics problem from high school. No matter how yo do it, it still takes the same energy to move a 20 ton block up a ramp.

50one
08-24-2017, 09:12 AM
CORE wasn't a quick replacement...

Surrealist.
08-24-2017, 12:41 PM
It sure wasn't/isn't and could never have been, will never be. But it was promoted as such. Well I guess that depends on your definition of quick. Given the goal anything under 5 years is some kind of voodoo miracle as I see it. May as well have been dancing in circles and pounding on animal skin drums to end the California drought. Good luck with that. lol as it is nature's natural cycle took care of the drought a lot faster than core would have ever been finished as stated.

COBRASoft
08-24-2017, 12:46 PM
CORE should have been continued as a modeler replacement with som extra's like VPR inside it, real lightning, faster and more polys. But, the users turned it down before it got a chance. They were afraid of the 'change' of workflow. Hey, modeler was still there... It still is, unchanged... That's exactly what was told when they announced CORE.
Again, where would CORE have been today if they continued? I bet it was better than modeler today...

MichaelT
08-24-2017, 01:38 PM
Core probably didn't work for engineering reasons. What I'm saying is that there might be a technical reason behind its cancellation. In any case.. it is ancient history.

erikals
08-24-2017, 02:02 PM
Core probably didn't work for engineering reasons.
true, i'm not going to dig up that link from Ikeda though.

there is no way for us to know "what if " anyway.

unless someone here has inside info.

Surrealist.
08-24-2017, 03:02 PM
CORE should have been continued as a modeler replacement with som extra's like VPR inside it, real lightning, faster and more polys. But, the users turned it down before it got a chance. They were afraid of the 'change' of workflow. Hey, modeler was still there... It still is, unchanged... That's exactly what was told when they announced CORE.
Again, where would CORE have been today if they continued? I bet it was better than modeler today...

That would have been a great plan. But I remember the expectation and announcement of core as something much more. Would be great if anyone has any of those old video promos around. I think it would help understand the atmosphere and hope of what it was promoted as. Those of us who where around at the time remember it well. And I am sure you do too. But I agree. I think it would have been better from the start to come out much more humble with smaller goals. Don't know who the marketing geniuses were who dreamed up the idea to market vaporware. I thought that went out with the 90s. But there you go. A big fat marketing mistake. Can't market a product that does not exist or can not be guaranteed to exist. Marketing 101.

ELinder
08-24-2017, 04:17 PM
As I remember it, Core had so many problems even the announcement stream kept crashing!

hrgiger
08-24-2017, 04:55 PM
That would have been a great plan. But I remember the expectation and announcement of core as something much more. Would be great if anyone has any of those old video promos around. I think it would help understand the atmosphere and hope of what it was promoted as. Those of us who where around at the time remember it well. And I am sure you do too. But I agree. I think it would have been better from the start to come out much more humble with smaller goals. Don't know who the marketing geniuses were who dreamed up the idea to market vaporware. I thought that went out with the 90s. But there you go. A big fat marketing mistake. Can't market a product that does not exist or can not be guaranteed to exist. Marketing 101.

Well except for the fact that CORE's primary focus was modeling. There was never an intent for it to be a replacement for LW at all right out of the gate. The intent was for it to be used alongside LW modeler and Layout , using interchange between the programs when possible or desirable.

From Jay Roth, prior to the CORE initial beta release:

"LightWave CORE is the new technology engine that will eventually completely supplant the current engine. Your mesh assets, image maps and some surfacing attributes will be accessible to LightWave CORE, but plug ins will not be. We will work with third parties to help guide them as they port their products over to LightWave CORE.

For now, our primary focus for LightWave CORE will be in the modeling environment. We have had so many ideas for modeling in the past, but we really needed the CORE architecture to take it to a whole new level. Of course, CORE is capable of anything, but we did need to start somewhere -- modeling was a good choice, and modeling will be the primary focus for the LightWave CORE release later this year. We will discuss specifics as we move along with the project."

hrgiger
08-24-2017, 05:21 PM
But wasn't Modo only around five years to first release, very unstable half finished first release, but first release none the less, ...

At 5 years, Modo was on its second release 201 with rendering and texture painting.

Old NT crew flew the coop in 2001, demoed Modo 101 at Siggraph 2004. 2005 Siggraph they showed 201, released in May 2006.

COBRASoft
08-24-2017, 05:48 PM
Well except for the fact that CORE's primary focus was modeling. There was never an intent for it to be a replacement for LW at all right out of the gate. The intent was for it to be used alongside LW modeler and Layout , using interchange between the programs when possible or desirable.

From Jay Roth, prior to the CORE initial beta release:

"LightWave CORE is the new technology engine that will eventually completely supplant the current engine. Your mesh assets, image maps and some surfacing attributes will be accessible to LightWave CORE, but plug ins will not be. We will work with third parties to help guide them as they port their products over to LightWave CORE.

For now, our primary focus for LightWave CORE will be in the modeling environment. We have had so many ideas for modeling in the past, but we really needed the CORE architecture to take it to a whole new level. Of course, CORE is capable of anything, but we did need to start somewhere -- modeling was a good choice, and modeling will be the primary focus for the LightWave CORE release later this year. We will discuss specifics as we move along with the project."

And there you go... thx hrgiger for bringing it back to us.
I was there when CORE was announced, when we decrypted their hints. I paid within 5 mins from the moment the special pricing scheme was put in place.

As a side note: I'm not so sure anymore about 'desktop' software. The future is web, even for 3D. So CORE, LightWave, Maya, Houdini, ... They will have to make a shift towards web one day. I'm looking forward how that will work out.

Surrealist.
08-24-2017, 06:29 PM
Well except for the fact that CORE's primary focus was modeling. There was never an intent for it to be a replacement for LW at all right out of the gate. The intent was for it to be used alongside LW modeler and Layout , using interchange between the programs when possible or desirable.

From Jay Roth, prior to the CORE initial beta release:

"LightWave CORE is the new technology engine that will eventually completely supplant the current engine. Your mesh assets, image maps and some surfacing attributes will be accessible to LightWave CORE, but plug ins will not be. We will work with third parties to help guide them as they port their products over to LightWave CORE.

For now, our primary focus for LightWave CORE will be in the modeling environment. We have had so many ideas for modeling in the past, but we really needed the CORE architecture to take it to a whole new level. Of course, CORE is capable of anything, but we did need to start somewhere -- modeling was a good choice, and modeling will be the primary focus for the LightWave CORE release later this year. We will discuss specifics as we move along with the project."

Absolutely. I remember that.

What is your point exactly? Not that they intended to make a modeling app I hope. I know you don't think that. Because what they are doing now with LightWave overall was the intent behind CORE and the context within which modeling would be a starting point. Not just a Modeling app.

But I agree that they should have started out with this humble approach and only announce it as a modeling app. That is not at all what happened.

I really do wish someone has these videos laying around. The lead up to the announcement the promises of what it was going to be. The video of the guys talking about CORE and what it could do.

It was a whole different concept.

But Modeling yep. Should have simply said we are making Modeling Core. And in 5 years when that was done, they should have announced. Rendering CORE and so on.

That makes sense to me.

hrgiger
08-24-2017, 07:17 PM
Absolutely. I remember that.

What is your point exactly? Not that they intended to make a modeling app I hope. I know you don't think that. Because what they are doing now with LightWave overall was the intent behind CORE and the context within which modeling would be a starting point. Not just a Modeling app.

But I agree that they should have started out with this humble approach and only announce it as a modeling app. That is not at all what happened.

.

Of course not just to make a modeling app. Who doesn't know it was to be a replacement for LW? But not for the first version.

The only things shown in the CORE demo video were related to modeling tools and the modifier stack in relation to modeling. People may have assumed there was more to CORE that early on but anyone listening knew it would be many versions of LW before it would replace all the functionality of LW modeler and Layout. But it wasn't just a modeling app in any event, it had VPR (limited), a working connection editor, a timeline with simple animation, and bullet dynamics.

For anyone interested, here is the final feature list which was to be for version 1 (which never happened)

137756