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Curly_01
05-06-2017, 03:38 AM
Hi,

I just found out that Modo is also on subscription. (I have an older version of Modo) Please, Newtek don't force people on subscription. Let Lightwave be the 'safe heaven' for indie and small studios. I like Mari and liked Modo a lot, but don't like their overpriced other software. Now they are chasing freelances away from their software by putting them on subscription. Be wise Newtek, no subscription please, I'll pay the upgrade if you release the next version, but no subscription please. Let Lightwave be the bug in the coat of the big other companies. Be the renagade of the 3D software. Make us proud.


Thanks for reading this post.

Comments?

Wickedpup
05-06-2017, 04:02 AM
LOL. Nothing like a little subscription to make people go apeshit......

erikals
05-06-2017, 04:11 AM
Comments?
if NewTek goes Subscription i think a lot more LightWavers will look into Blender.

jwiede
05-06-2017, 04:18 AM
Hi,

I just found out that Modo is also on subscription.

MODO perpetual licenses are still being sold (and upgradable via maintenance, which is not same as "subscription").

TheLexx
05-06-2017, 04:28 AM
Before this goes too deep, does an enforced online checking for a licence during the period effectively count as a subscription, even if they call it maintenance ?

MichaelT
05-06-2017, 05:26 AM
I would wholeheartedly approve if they went down the Allegorithmic road. But.. and this is a major point.. that does require actually getting updates. No more of these years of literal silence between releases. Look at it as an incentive to actually move quicker.

Asticles
05-06-2017, 05:31 AM
Why don't you make a poll with different license models?

MichaelT
05-06-2017, 06:06 AM
;) I hope LWG would do something like that themselves, if they planned on changing their model. I am pretty certain I belong to the vocal minority however.

hrgiger
05-06-2017, 07:24 AM
Before this goes too deep, does an enforced online checking for a licence during the period effectively count as a subscription, even if they call it maintenance ?

No.

And we dont have to worry about LW going to a subscription because they dont improve the software often enough to warrant it. someone who signed up for a subscription a year ago (hell even 2 years ago) wouldnt be too happy as there hasnt been any updates in that time.

Surrealist.
05-07-2017, 02:12 AM
It would be an option. So there is nothing to worry about. I think we can trust they will do what is right when the time is right . And the right thing to do at the right time is offer subscription option.

Those that don't want it will have nothing to worry about.

squarewulf
05-08-2017, 09:29 AM
You can't have a subscription based software if the software is never released ;)

Matt
05-08-2017, 10:09 AM
No plans to change the licensing model that I can see.

prometheus
05-08-2017, 10:52 AM
No plans to change the licensing model that I can see.

Sounds Great.

shrox
05-08-2017, 03:57 PM
No plans to change the licensing model that I can see.

Excellent!

VonBon
05-11-2017, 08:55 PM
No.

And we dont have to worry about LW going to a subscription because they dont improve the software often enough to warrant it. someone who signed up for a subscription a year ago (hell even 2 years ago) wouldnt be too happy as there hasnt been any updates in that time.

LOL, that was Ice Cold

- - - Updated - - -

They gone do better, I Believes in them.

hrgiger
05-11-2017, 08:57 PM
LOL, that was Ice Cold

it wasn't meant to be, its just the reality. If people are paying for a subscription for a years time, they're going to want to see improvements in that year. LW3DG has more of a release it when we feel its ready and currently that is going on 2 1/2 years since the last update. Why would anyone buy a subscription knowing that there may be 0 changes in the time they're paying for it? If you took that as a criticism of LW3DG, that's not what I was implying.

samurai_x
05-11-2017, 11:01 PM
No plans to change the licensing model that I can see.

Are there plans to release lightwave this year?
Are we going the PMG way. ;D

Asticles
05-12-2017, 05:27 AM
Here we go again :P

rustythe1
05-12-2017, 06:20 AM
Are there plans to release lightwave this year?
Are we going the PMG way. ;D

136778
yes, I find Your lack of updates disturbing LWG

Norka
05-12-2017, 06:53 AM
Hey, if it made things so that LW was updated on the same level as Substance Painter/Designer, Octane, Houdini, I would GLADLY pay for a subscription. Even $40/mo... But for that kind of dough, I would expect devs to be johnny-on-the-spot on these forums, pouncing on bugs, taking suggestions, communicating constantly... I actually wish Allegorithmic would buy LW3DG. I think they would make LW competitive again, and take LW into the future.

hrgiger
05-12-2017, 07:37 AM
Hey, if it made things so that LW was updated on the same level as Substance Painter/Designer, Octane, Houdini, I would GLADLY pay for a subscription. Even $40/mo... But for that kind of dough, I would expect devs to be johnny-on-the-spot on these forums, pouncing on bugs, taking suggestions, communicating constantly... I actually wish Allegorithmic would buy LW3DG. I think they would make LW competitive again, and take LW into the future.

Which is part of the reason that people agree to a subscription model in some cases. Substance has a very friendly maintenance sort of arrangement where you can pay 75 bucks for painter (or Designer) a year and get all the updates within that year. And they're not on any kind of auto-renewal or charge more if you dont' pay more right away at the end of the year. Modo is on maintenance now and some people complain that you're put into a higher price if you don't pay every year but they just released 11 a few weeks back and they're already showing features for another release which will be in beta in another few weeks with a release to follow a few months after that. I'm ok with that business model and I agree, if LW put out consistent updates, I would be fine with a maintenance plan for LW as well.

Surrealist.
05-14-2017, 02:28 AM
For me it is not about updates or support. I use software based on if it works for me now. The other things are great but not essential. Choosing software has mostly to do with how accessible it is. And second now that I have spent time with it, does it work for me.

Software is as much or more of an investment of time as it is money.

But having to invest a large chunk of money in software just to find out if is not what you need is a deterrent.

Trial periods are not really enough. And most are tied in with the date of first use rather than # of days used.

But thankfully, the trend is towards software accessibility.

This is where things are going.

Along with free versions for students, LightWave needs to be made accessible by anyone on any budget.

This is what most software today offers.

There are downsides to rental only. Of course. But there are way too many advantages of a rental or rent to own software option to ignore.

And I don't think it hinges on updates as much as it does simply having esse of access.

Simply put it is what you need to compete today.

bazsa73
05-14-2017, 03:03 AM
I think it's a bit more complicated than that Richard. The users in this business create intellectual property with these applications, but if you suspend
your subscription you lose your ability to access your property you have been paid already, so it can be said in a more vulgar way that you are robbed.
Autodesk limits your freedom, robs your intellectual property and blackmails you to pay more money. These are serious crimes in my opinion.

jwiede
05-14-2017, 01:57 PM
I think it's a bit more complicated than that Richard. The users in this business create intellectual property with these applications, but if you suspend
your subscription you lose your ability to access your property you have been paid already, so it can be said in a more vulgar way that you are robbed.
Autodesk limits your freedom, robs your intellectual property and blackmails you to pay more money. These are serious crimes in my opinion.

This is getting ridiculous. Your content still belongs to you, they didn't "rob" you of anything. When you rented their software, it was explicit that your access to that software would cease if you stopped paying rent. You created content knowing your ability to edit it would end if you stopped paying rent.

Surrealist.
05-14-2017, 02:19 PM
Additionally....You can never own software. You know that right? For the same reason you just pointed out. It is intellectual property. It is far more complex than you think. You don't have a right to keep software and use it forever if you violate the EULA.

End user license agreement.

You violate that even with perpetual agreement, you could legally loose your right to the software and then of course access to all of the files as a result. And yes. This has happened.

So there is nothing criminal about what AD is doing in regard to that.

But of course as I said, there are issues with forcing this on all users as the only option.

I don't agree with that approach

But all of these finer points have been discussed endlessly.

The point is, should LightWave offer this as an option? The answer is yes.

Looking at the fact that this trend is growing. That means users are finding this useful. By statistic. So companies are investing in the option. Modo has indie and now rental on the full version.

This costs money to set up and support

They would not do that if they thought it was not going to make money.

They are doing it because by statistic people want it.

There you go.

That alone is reason enough. More users of LightWave. Greater reach. Competition with other purchase options. Should be a no brainer really. If you care about the future success of LW.

I do. And this is my opinion and feedback.

hrgiger
05-14-2017, 05:50 PM
Looking at the fact that this trend is growing. That means users are finding this useful. By statistic. So companies are investing in the option. Modo has indie and now rental on the full version.



Well I take issue with the idea that subscription has come about because users somehow decided it would be useful to them or were even asking for it. Subscriptions came about because companies found a way to ensure a more predictable revenue stream that would look good to investors and you can put a period on the sentence right there. Not because users were asking for it, not because companies actually believe it is to the benefit of customers, but because it ensures steady revenue stream and the company can get rid of the people who 'sit on the fence' and wait for an upgrade that's worthy for them.

And dont' get me wrong, subscription has its place and I'm highly in favor of the maintenance model which gives users a perpetual license but still ensures regular revenue stream for the company and am now on maintenance with Modo. But to even suggest that users are driving the demand for subscription only based software.... no. Adobe users have no choice and AD users are being priced out of their choice by increasing maintenance cost to push everyone into rental. And they're market leaders and they can get away with it.

jasonwestmas
05-14-2017, 07:28 PM
I would be asking for rental if it guaranteed a more successful product, potentially it does create more of a buffer for experimentation, researching new approaches to cg in an ideal world. . . but there is no guarantee. It's all faith, based on historical progress or lack thereof.

Surrealist.
05-15-2017, 12:37 AM
Well I take issue with the idea that subscription has come about because users somehow decided it would be useful to them or were even asking for it. Subscriptions came about because companies found a way to ensure a more predictable revenue stream that would look good to investors and you can put a period on the sentence right there. Not because users were asking for it, not because companies actually believe it is to the benefit of customers, but because it ensures steady revenue stream and the company can get rid of the people who 'sit on the fence' and wait for an upgrade that's worthy for them.

And dont' get me wrong, subscription has its place and I'm highly in favor of the maintenance model which gives users a perpetual license but still ensures regular revenue stream for the company and am now on maintenance with Modo. But to even suggest that users are driving the demand for subscription only based software.... no. Adobe users have no choice and AD users are being priced out of their choice by increasing maintenance cost to push everyone into rental. And they're market leaders and they can get away with it.

Well if Adobe was the first and only company to offer this, then I might agree more. I think you are giving them more credit than is due....lol

They simply copied the business model that was already in use elsewhere for years.

They made headlines with it. But they did not invent it. And that is all already long history anyway. And we are not even talking about them.

Regardless of their reason or corporate benefit for them or for AD, now in the present every other company is taking advantage of it.

Your logic only extends out as far as users have not wanted to have it forced on them.

But we are past that now. Most all other companies have this as an option. At least.

They are giving users a choice. Not forcing them. And people are choosing this for their own reasons

I know I have and will continue for my own reasons. AD products, Adobe, The Foundry, Houdini Substance Live etc.

And many others do as well.

So we don't agree. Fine.

But that is not a reason for LW to not have it as an option.

I would appreciate it and likely take advantage of it

But more importantly it would potentiality being a lot of new users to LW.

And I think it is worth considering it for that reason alone.

hrgiger
05-15-2017, 01:50 AM
But more importantly it would potentiality being a lot of new users to LW.

And I think it is worth considering it for that reason alone.

And again, LW is updated so infrequently and its so cheap to upgrade, I really don't see what is to be gained by offering subscription. Right now its been 2 1/2 years since the last update and if what they said is true, upgrades are now $299. Unless they plan on charging less than $10 a month for a subscription (maybe even less depending on how long it takes for LW next to be released), then you're really not saving anything. Subscriptions and maintenance are really only values for software that is updated every year so people know what they're at least buying into. I know you may feel differently, but i'd not buy a subscription to software that I knew might not be improved in that time.

Besides, all this is a moot point because LW3DG isn't going to offer a subscription.

jwiede
05-15-2017, 02:46 AM
Well I take issue with the idea that subscription has come about because users somehow decided it would be useful to them or were even asking for it.

For businesses, being able to manage seats on a year-by-year (or even month-by-month) basis without high initial per-seat buy-in costs is a huge fiscal management benefit, esp. when they find themselves repeatedly in situations where they temporarily need to add seats for contract workers, etc. hired temporarily to boost the permanent staff. As mid-scale or larger business customers represent a massive proportion of sales and revenue in professional software, their desires have tremendous influence over professional software publishers' policies and practices.

So yes, I believe (know for a fact, actually) that the trends towards subscription options (versus high initial buy-in per-seat costs) for pro software are strongly driven by the influence/desires of mid-scale and above corporate business customers. That companies like Autodesk are willing to enact policies favorable to such mid-scale or larger business customers, despite knowing significant numbers of individual and small-business customers will move to competitors' products over said policies (which are not as beneficial for individual and small business customers), is actually a testimonial to just how much pro software revenue comes from mid-scale or larger corporate customers.

JohnMarchant
05-15-2017, 03:18 AM
Well I take issue with the idea that subscription has come about because users somehow decided it would be useful to them or were even asking for it. Subscriptions came about because companies found a way to ensure a more predictable revenue stream that would look good to investors and you can put a period on the sentence right there. Not because users were asking for it, not because companies actually believe it is to the benefit of customers, but because it ensures steady revenue stream and the company can get rid of the people who 'sit on the fence' and wait for an upgrade that's worthy for them.

And dont' get me wrong, subscription has its place and I'm highly in favor of the maintenance model which gives users a perpetual license but still ensures regular revenue stream for the company and am now on maintenance with Modo. But to even suggest that users are driving the demand for subscription only based software.... no. Adobe users have no choice and AD users are being priced out of their choice by increasing maintenance cost to push everyone into rental. And they're market leaders and they can get away with it.

I have a subscription with Adobe for CC and MS Office and these 2 subscriptions for what you get is very good value for money. Adobe CC for me is 25 per month for the lot, ok that was a special that they did and after 1 year it goes to 50 per month which i still think it good. AD on the other hand i dont think offers value for money and certainly not if going by the complaints on the AD forums about features, old bugs, updates and pricing model change are anything to go by.

hrgiger
05-15-2017, 06:04 AM
Sure John Marchant, for what you get Adobe is fairly inexpensive. And i was on Adobe CC for 4 years. But now there are alternatives. So after paying for 4 years, i own nothing from Adobe, no perpetual licensing.

Look im not arguing against rental as an option but youre deluding yourselves if you think Autodesk is doing anything with the customers needs in mind, and its purely about trapping people into giving Autodesk regualr revenue and taking away choices. I understand how rental based licesning can be flexible for companies to add and remove seats as they hire new people, but if Autodesk actuall gave a crap about what customers actually needed or wanted, they would be offering rental as a choice, not forcing it on people.

MichaelT
05-15-2017, 09:04 AM
Which is exactly why I got C4D. So glad I'll be getting off that AD overpriced money train.

Surrealist.
05-15-2017, 10:24 AM
Well yes and no to why Autodesk and Adobe did what they did.

Steve I think you are hitting the drum a little hard here calling people delusional.

There is definitely a need and want for this model now. And companies are responding to that. With an option. And this blows a hole in your theory that it is all money motivated.

Surrealist.
05-15-2017, 10:48 AM
Yeah I find most of the AD products overpriced.

But I do take advantage of Maya LT and Mudbox rental. It helps me in my studio

I also have several licences of PS running.

All these things combined help me run an ecomical operation.

It definitely works for me.

And I honestly don't care the reason why AD and Adobe did what they did.

The undeniable fact is people want this with other products as well. Now. In the present. And other companies are offering the option. If there was not a need they could not do that.

I welcome the Modo offering.

Would like to see the same option with LightWave.

hrgiger
05-15-2017, 10:53 AM
Where is the option with ad or Adobe. Any new licenses are rental only and the people currently on maintenance are being squeezed with price hikes so they can push them into rental only. Not a lot of choice there.

And as I said I'm very much for options and there's nothing wrong with a rental option. But only as an option.

I am on maintenance with Modo 11 and I think it's the best course for both developers and users.

JohnMarchant
05-15-2017, 12:11 PM
Sure John Marchant, for what you get Adobe is fairly inexpensive. And i was on Adobe CC for 4 years. But now there are alternatives. So after paying for 4 years, i own nothing from Adobe, no perpetual licensing.

Look im not arguing against rental as an option but youre deluding yourselves if you think Autodesk is doing anything with the customers needs in mind, and its purely about trapping people into giving Autodesk regualr revenue and taking away choices. I understand how rental based licesning can be flexible for companies to add and remove seats as they hire new people, but if Autodesk actuall gave a crap about what customers actually needed or wanted, they would be offering rental as a choice, not forcing it on people.

I agree with you AD is going for the high end big studios with their latest pricing, the obviously dont care about the small user or hobbyist. So piracy will go up or people will switch to other software. Already many AD users are looking around mostly those who are small setups and stuff.

Hobbyists are still important because it gives people access to the software and time to learn without going to the DAVE school or some other learning center. Also they tend be be innovative because they have to be on a tight budget and tend to think outside the box. Many people working in big setups started as hobbyists with no formal training at Uni or somewhere else.

Add to that Blender, and a multitude of stuff offered free or discounted, Houdini Indi, Blender and many others i think the long term strategy may backfire on them. Indeed i think Side Effects is ideally placed to oach some of these disgruntled former AD users.

Im not against or for rental, i think it should be an option, not forced like AD does.

Having said that, you never own a rented house, car, mobile phone and many other things we use in our daily lives.

MichaelT
05-15-2017, 12:18 PM
I think companies in general should be more realistic when it comes to the average Joe. After all, letting people learn your tool is a good thing. That said, I fully agree that subs should only be an option, not a requirement.

hrgiger
05-15-2017, 01:11 PM
Having said that, you never own a rented house, car, mobile phone and many other things we use in our daily lives.

And that is true, but you also have the option to buy those things so that doesn't really take away from the argument that consumers fare better when they have a choice of what works best for them.

Some seem to be coming to the defense of Autodesk or Adobe. I'm not criticizing you if you choose to use rental software, that's your choice and as I said, I was on Adobe cc for 4 years and rental has its place. But don't downplay what these companies have done to the people who the rental Model does not work best for.

prometheus
05-15-2017, 01:30 PM
I agree with you AD is going for the high end big studios with their latest pricing, the obviously dont care about the small user or hobbyist. So piracy will go up or people will switch to other software. Already many AD users are looking around mostly those who are small setups and stuff.

Hobbyists are still important because it gives people access to the software and time to learn without going to the DAVE school or some other learning center. Also they tend be be innovative because they have to be on a tight budget and tend to think outside the box. Many people working in big setups started as hobbyists with no formal training at Uni or somewhere else.

Add to that Blender, and a multitude of stuff offered free or discounted, Houdini Indi, Blender and many others i think the long term strategy may backfire on them. Indeed i think Side Effects is ideally placed to oach some of these disgruntled former AD users.

Im not against or for rental, i think it should be an option, not forced like AD does.

Having said that, you never own a rented house, car, mobile phone and many other things we use in our daily lives.

Agreed...rent as an option, only good, not forced.

And this "Having said that, you never own a rented house, car, mobile phone and many other things we use in our daily lives" ??
So that is why women leave me once I stop support them with money:D Ah..think I got it now :)

TheLexx
05-15-2017, 02:07 PM
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but one potential advantage of subscriptions is that they are generally better for companies for tax purposes, like a subscription is a simple expense deduction, but buying software outright possibly introduces issues with capital costs and depreciation calculations over the accounting year. It probably varies over the world, but that is my general understanding.

I'm generally suspicious of subscriptions because of what might mutate later down the road, but I guess genuine options for users is always a good thing. If I understand the model correctly, Allegorithmic seems a good way to go.

Surrealist.
05-15-2017, 02:49 PM
Well Steve I am not downplaying anything that happened. In fact I see that as such ancient history not even worth commenting on. Which is why I have been leaving it alone. Because all of these points have been made endless times. But now in present time, we do have companies offering options. Sounds like you just want it to be a debate about Adobe and AD.

The discussion at hand, now here in present time, with all of the factors at play, is if LW should offer a rental option.

That is really it.

It is not a discussion about what happened in the past.

Clearly other companies have heard the voices of wanting it to remain an option

Newtek has no intention of doing what AD did I am sure

So can we move past that now?

jasonwestmas
05-15-2017, 04:36 PM
And again, LW is updated so infrequently,

That'll have to change no matter which side of the fence. :)

jasonwestmas
05-15-2017, 04:43 PM
they obviously dont care about the small user or hobbyist.


mmm, not true. I haven't used maya LT but to say they don't care about selling to the small guy. I highly doubt it.

OjN
05-15-2017, 04:46 PM
Umm...talking about Nosferatu.
Autodesk's Teresa Anania Interview by Pixel Fondue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4JidKLJURM

She tries to sell the idea subscription is amazing.
She reaffirms no ownership option is going to be available, "its a business decision". Some minor news.

Surrealist.
05-15-2017, 05:43 PM
That'll have to change no matter which side of the fence. :)

I think of it this way. You get a product that works now for X price. That is its value. You rent a product that works now, for Z price. That is its value. A significantly less price as an entry level to the product. Though you have updates included and I agree it would be a selling point. I will be honest, I rent a lot of software. And never have I considered the updates as a reason. That is more of a given. Every product is upgraded - eventually. LightWave's current cycle is not the norm. When they finish this update things should go faster... should.

jasonwestmas
05-15-2017, 07:15 PM
I think of it this way. You get a product that works now for X price. That is its value. You rent a product that works now, for Z price. That is its value. A significantly less price as an entry level to the product. Though you have updates included and I agree it would be a selling point. I will be honest, I rent a lot of software. And never have I considered the updates as a reason. That is more of a given. Every product is upgraded - eventually. LightWave's current cycle is not the norm. When they finish this update things should go faster... should.

yup, precisely what I was thinking, they should be going faster eventually. So if they did decide to offer rental as an option, that would happen POST "whatever this sluggish rewrite is". As you say clearly this is not a typical development cycle.

hrgiger
05-15-2017, 10:11 PM
I'm highly dubious that LW development will go any faster in the next cycle than it did previously. Sure, they've added a new renderer and some new systems but we don't know the extent of the changes they've made, nor do we know to what extent, additional changes will need to be made to allow for faster development moving forward. Modeler is still a dead end and laying a foundation for modeling in Layout doesn't exactly say they're quite ready to implement a modeling environment in Layout yet either. They don't even have a modeling engineer on staff currently (that we know of) so I can't be highly positive that they're hitting the ground running with the next release which we still don't know how far off that might be.

JohnMarchant
05-16-2017, 02:16 AM
mmm, not true. I haven't used maya LT but to say they don't care about selling to the small guy. I highly doubt it.

Well thats the impression i get on the AD forums from what is being said.

Revanto
05-16-2017, 05:04 AM
Rental Prices are often good for freelancers and small studios but not for hobbyists, like me, who sometimes go months not using the software because they have something else on their plate. Plus, I've heard of the issues of when you don't pay your subscription fee. It's dumb, from my perspective. Imagine having a car and then imagine that it only works when you stick coins in a slot next to the steering wheel.

Rev. :p

samurai_x
05-16-2017, 05:14 AM
Maya LT is discontinued in Steam.
AD doesn't care about the little guy.
Back to cracks for many.

erikals
05-16-2017, 07:09 AM
many "Lite" versions of apps get discontinued, wouldn't give MayaLT much value, and even less being subscription,
if they end MayaLT, you can forget about ever opening any of your MayaLT files again.

jasonwestmas
05-16-2017, 07:16 AM
I'm highly dubious that LW development will go any faster in the next cycle than it did previously. Sure, they've added a new renderer and some new systems but we don't know the extent of the changes they've made, nor do we know to what extent, additional changes will need to be made to allow for faster development moving forward. Modeler is still a dead end and laying a foundation for modeling in Layout doesn't exactly say they're quite ready to implement a modeling environment in Layout yet either. They don't even have a modeling engineer on staff currently (that we know of) so I can't be highly positive that they're hitting the ground running with the next release which we still don't know how far off that might be.

believe me, I'm not positive about much. :)

jasonwestmas
05-16-2017, 07:21 AM
Well thats the impression i get on the AD forums from what is being said.

Caring for the "individual" and selling to them are two different things, which is what I think you are witnessing.

shrox
05-16-2017, 07:34 AM
...Imagine having a car and then imagine that it only works when you stick coins in a slot next to the steering wheel.

Rev. :p

That's what a taxi is, you don't even have to drive. Maybe rental software will come with an artist to run it...

erikals
05-16-2017, 07:35 AM
Jarno stated that they had to focus either on Layout first, or on Modeler.

you can't upgrade both apps at the same time during a rewrite, that's just going to leave a mess.

i'm afraid it's going to take a helluva long time before we see significant Modeler improvements.

hrgiger
05-16-2017, 07:40 AM
believe me, I'm not positive about much. :)

Jason, i wasnt even saying it in terms of being positive or negative. I already know from what ive seen of LW next that i will upgrade when LW next is released but i gave up on thinking a long time ago in terms of LW keeping up with other products on the market. I wish LW3DG the best and i wll continue to support them and I have my reasons for that but I just think its best if people put themselves in a situation with LW that theyre not sitting around waiting for LW to fix things or implement things that might take years or might not happen at all.

jasonwestmas
05-16-2017, 08:58 AM
Jason, i wasnt even saying it in terms of being positive or negative. I already know from what ive seen of LW next that i will upgrade when LW next is released but i gave up on thinking a long time ago in terms of LW keeping up with other products on the market. I wish LW3DG the best and i wll continue to support them and I have my reasons for that but I just think its best if people put themselves in a situation with LW that theyre not sitting around waiting for LW to fix things or implement things that might take years or might not happen at all.

Yeah I understand your position for the most part. The words "positive" or "negative" are very generic terms which do not accurately describe how I view the situation really, and I shouldn't phase things in that way.

jasonwestmas
05-16-2017, 09:13 AM
Maya LT is discontinued in Steam.
AD doesn't care about the little guy.
Back to cracks for many.

Autodesk will take your money no matter who you are. ;)
Believe me AD wants the whole market not just large companys.


Why does Steam bring value to lite CG packages? Or are you talking about perpetual licensing?

Edit: Come to think of it, eventually AD users will all be stuck with an Adobe "pay flat fee to use anything methodology". I think that is where they are going based on that last Pixel Fondu video I saw.

So pricing is pending in that avenue.

sadkkf
05-16-2017, 09:15 AM
Rental Prices are often good for freelancers and small studios but not for hobbyists, like me, who sometimes go months not using the software because they have something else on their plate.


I disagree. Many freelancers don't have reliable income and can't afford another monthly bill. They may have a large project that could pay for a perpetual license and keep that until the next big project or use the next paycheck to pay for other bills.

My early days were lean and that's what I needed to do to stay afloat. Now that I've built a solid customer base and income is more or less steady, I still use Adobe's CS6 suite because it works very well for me and it's paid for.

Paul_Boland
05-16-2017, 12:25 PM
...I still use Adobe's CS6 suite because it works very well for me and it's paid for.

LOL!! So do I :)!! I bought it on student discount when it came out (I was in college at the time brushing up on my I.T. skills). I took out a loan from the Credit Union, got my hands on the full CS6 Creative Suite package, and six months later the loan was paid off and I still have all that software running fine to this day :)!!! If they hadn't of gone to a subscription Creative Cloud system, I probably would have upgraded when CS7 or CS8 came out. But no, I'm not buying into CC, paying a yearly bill to be able to access my files via rent-software. Give me a solid standalone release and you'll have my eye, and my money.

Surrealist.
05-16-2017, 04:17 PM
I was waiting to upgrade my CS 5 but I did not have the money. Then subscription came out. I jumped on it. Haven't looked back. I now have 3 seats and 3K worth of software I can run on 6 computers for around 30 bucks a month. It will take me around 8 years to equal the 3K, not even including upgrades. Works for me. ;)

Surrealist.
05-16-2017, 04:24 PM
Some people use and swear by LightWave as is. so I am not so sure you can hang your hat on updates. No one in their right mind buys software on a promise of features. People buy what works now. Updates are not an issue as to if you buy a software. It is a consideration. Certainly. But it should never be a criteria for offering rental. Rental fort LightWave with the promised features - assuming they all actually do what is promised when we see it - would be worth it for those features alone. As long as a software works as promised out of the box, it is worthy of being rented in my opinion.

Updates all the better.

jasonwestmas
05-16-2017, 05:01 PM
I only buy beta. ;)

MichaelT
05-16-2017, 05:16 PM
At least Adobe is affordable. $10/month to get your hands on Photoshop is a no-brainer really. That's despite me disliking subs. Now, if AD would do something like that.... (no LT nonsense either)

hrgiger
05-16-2017, 06:40 PM
At least Adobe is affordable. $10/month to get your hands on Photoshop is a no-brainer really. That's despite me disliking subs. Now, if AD would do something like that.... (no LT nonsense either)

Affinity Photo- $39 for life is more of a no brainer.

Paul_Boland
05-16-2017, 08:15 PM
At least Adobe is affordable. $10/month to get your hands on Photoshop is a no-brainer really. That's despite me disliking subs.


Affinity Photo- $39 for life is more of a no brainer.

Have to agree with Hrgiger. I bought CS6 Creative Suite on student discount in 2012 when it came out. I've used all that software extensively for the past five years, and continue to do so at zero extra cost since my initial purchase. In the past five years, at $10 per month, that means MichaelT has paid out $600 odd in the past five year for software he'll never own and have to keep paying for each month... By all means, if it works for you, great! But I won't be switching to it any time soon.

Asticles
05-17-2017, 11:08 AM
Everything is a no brainer, lately.

:rolleyes:

Surrealist.
05-17-2017, 11:21 AM
Affinity Photo- $39 for life is more of a no brainer.

Not necessarily as a alternative for PS in all cases. Great that it works for you though. But there are a number of reasons these alternatives are not useful as solutions.

jasonwestmas
05-17-2017, 11:26 AM
well at least Corel Painter is still perpetual ($214). I know its not image editing. But if you need to paint . . .

Marander
05-18-2017, 03:25 AM
Affinity Photo- $39 for life is more of a no brainer.

Exactly.

If PS or AE would have still be available for perpetual without all that online crap I would immediately buy it for the full price (specially AE because of the 3rd party plugins).

I think with time and a new generation of designers and artistis, Adobe could get more and more obsolete.

Affinity Designer & Photo are great and there is a Indesign-like application available soon.

There is Blackmagic DaVinci Resolve and Fusion and instead of increasing the prices or going rental, the are getting better and cheaper.

Remember Quark XPress? It was the de-facto standard software for DTP (at least in my area) some years ago, a must have. But their pricing and licensing was horrible and who still uses it today?

Marander
05-18-2017, 03:31 AM
And so is Krita (for free) which is great. It's greatly improved and even details like 4k compatibility with corresponding icons, tablet support etc. is taken care of.

Corel is ok. I use PaintShop Pro and for photo slideshows VideoStudio, great for simple tasks. More and more I use Affinity. PhotoLine is great to from a functionality point-of-view but I don't like the interface. However I appreciate PS alternatives and will keep supporting the development by updating it.


well at least Corel Painter is still perpetual ($214). I know its not image editing. But if you need to paint . . .

MichaelT
05-18-2017, 08:13 AM
Affinity Photo- $39 for life is more of a no brainer.

Which is why I have it :) But unless Affinity get Quixel working for it, I will keep using PS. There are similar reasons for the other tools in their portfolio. But I'm not stuck any more, there are options. But when you're working with others.. you do need to use the same tools they are.

JohnMarchant
05-18-2017, 08:27 AM
Which is why I have it :) But unless Affinity get Quixel working for it, I will keep using PS. There are similar reasons for the other tools in their portfolio. But I'm not stuck any more, there are options. But when you're working with others.. you do need to use the same tools they are.

Agreed the more tools the better. PS Still has its uses and its an industry standard. I got Substance Suite before i had to get PS and then ended up getting Quixel. I still prefer the fact that Substance does not need another program to run.

Clipping path
10-08-2017, 11:22 AM
No plans to change the licensing model that I can see.

Wonderful ! :D

hrgiger
10-09-2017, 10:22 AM
Which is exactly one of the reasons i went with substance because it wasnt tied to another app like photoshop. And based on the update schedule, looks like i went with the right choice.

TheLexx
10-09-2017, 11:04 AM
What is the workflow please for Substance and Lightwave since LW is not compatible with Substance files ?

erikals
10-09-2017, 11:06 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiGvMkCTIe4

TheLexx
10-09-2017, 11:22 AM
Many thanks erikals.

Surrealist.
10-09-2017, 11:31 AM
What is the workflow please for Substance and Lightwave since LW is not compatible with Substance files ?

Do you mean Substance file format or the maps from substance?

Just so you know. The maps are nothing more than color and grey scale information. And you can output maps more tuned for a specular workflow as well.

This is from the unity manual, but it does help you understand the two concepts a little bit.

https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/StandardShaderMetallicVsSpecular.html

Here is from the substance manual:


SpecGloss (non PBR)

Preset for non-PBR renderers/game engines (to be used with the associated shader)

Here:

https://support.allegorithmic.com/documentation/display/SPDOC/Exporting+textures

So you also have the choice to actually work with LightWave in the "standard" way. Aside from the PBR concept which has to do with conservation of energy and all that, basically all you are doing is driving these channels with what is called scalar information. Basically a gradation from black to white.

And you can use these maps to drive values in a material or use them to mix more than one material. Then use nodes to combine values to maps, make adjustments to them and so on.

If you think of it that way at the most basic level you will be on your way to understanding how it all works.

erikals
10-09-2017, 11:45 AM
by the way, for the ones interested, 3DCoat is $280 today
tomorrow it will be back to regular price $380

3DCoat.com

Surrealist.
10-09-2017, 11:56 AM
Thanks for the heads up. :)

TheLexx
10-09-2017, 12:17 PM
Thanks Surrealist, I will go through those carefully.

Separate note, the entire CG Elves training (https://cgelves.com/courses-workshops/mastering-marvelous-designer/)for Marvelous Designer is only $99 for the whole of October. :)

Luc_Feri
10-12-2017, 09:19 AM
Agreed, please no subsciptions.

I have MODO 10 and that I think will be last ever purchase, hate the new online license direction they have gone in.

The only sub I have is Maya LT, for the animation side, which is LW's shortfall for me.

hrgiger
10-12-2017, 10:35 AM
Agreed, please no subsciptions.

I have MODO 10 and that I think will be last ever purchase, hate the new online license direction they have gone in.

.

Then get the offline license. Its an option, just write support.
Im always connected so i like the login based licensing

Luc_Feri
10-17-2017, 04:47 AM
Then get the offline license. Its an option, just write support.
Im always connected so i like the login based licensing

I've kinda scaled back from upgrading. I'll stick with MODO 10. I spent time in too many packages and lost my flow. Not going to get Houdini Indie this year. I have Maya LT 2018, LW2015+LWCAD5.2, MODO 10, going to consolidate what I have.

Nice video BTW on LWCAD, I used it for a refresher!!!

hrgiger
10-17-2017, 11:41 AM
Thanks Luc!

Luc_Feri
10-18-2017, 04:32 AM
Thanks Luc!

No worries. Cheers.