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samurai_x
04-19-2017, 09:56 PM
https://i.imgur.com/zmcVGNG.jpg

https://community.foundry.com/discuss/topic/130913/modo-11-now-with-subscription-options


Glad there's still lightwave which hopefully stays with perpetual license.

wingzeta
04-19-2017, 10:08 PM
Whoa! That guy looks like his creativity is being UNLESHED! :hey:

magiclight
04-20-2017, 12:19 AM
As long as it is just "with subscription options" I don't think any one will be that upset, it's when they go the autodesk way (sub. only) people get pissed.

Rob made a promise in an interview a few years ago that it would never happen with LW, but people promise things all the time so you never know for sure.

50one
04-20-2017, 02:05 AM
As long as it is just "with subscription options" I don't think any one will be that upset, it's when they go the autodesk way (sub. only) people get pissed.

Rob made a promise in an interview a few years ago that it would never happen with LW, but people promise things all the time so you never know for sure.


And so did Brad promis couple of things...but since preety much all of the old MODO team is gone it's time for some corporate tactics.

gerry_g
04-20-2017, 04:27 AM
the real kicker will be when you have to rent your computer too, I mean you rent you internet you rent you software, probably even rent your training, how long can it be ?

samurai_x
04-20-2017, 04:48 AM
And so did Brad promis couple of things...but since preety much all of the old MODO team is gone it's time for some corporate tactics.

Two main Modo guys quit this year. The document guy and the modo indie dev.
Not a good sign.

trick
04-20-2017, 04:56 AM
the real kicker will be when you have to rent your computer too, I mean you rent you internet you rent you software, probably even rent your training, how long can it be ?

Women can be rented since ages, so why not computers and software. And then to think all the prejudices people have about "renting" :D:devil:

(... and for the female species in here: men can be rented too :D)

art
04-20-2017, 07:06 AM
One day we'll be renting our lives and body parts. "How many more years of living can you afford? IQ180 brain 25% off. This week only."

djwaterman
04-20-2017, 08:16 AM
Renting only makes sense for professionals who can write it into their running costs, and it can even be cost effective. But it's a terrible option for the hobbyist or I'd rather you the term enthusiast. By all means keep it optional, I can't see the downside to that for the company, well I guess I can actually since the goal is to keep the customer paying and always engaged.

roboman
04-20-2017, 08:43 AM
Women can be rented since ages, so why not computers and software. And then to think all the prejudices people have about "renting" :D:devil:

(... and for the female species in here: men can be rented too :D)
No, men are still free to be used by women. But, I do hear Autodesk is working on changing that....

50one
04-20-2017, 11:03 AM
One day we'll be renting our lives and body parts. "How many more years of living can you afford? IQ180 brain 25% off. This week only."

I'm with you on that mate.

I refuse most stuff that's rental only, that's why I'm actually moving away from CG to something else
.

Mortgage, Car finance, internet, netflix, tv licence, spotify, software, gear rental for some the lost goes on.

What does it mean to 'own' something these days?

ianr
04-20-2017, 11:17 AM
I'm with you on that mate.

I refuse most stuff that's rental only, that's why I'm actually moving away from CG to something else
.

Mortgage, Car finance, internet, netflix, tv licence, spotify, software, gear rental for some the lost goes on.

What does it mean to 'own' something these days?


No No 50-1 It's Cyber Fluid World fully of glassy illusions, what is CGI but Smoke'n'mirrors

To own something is Contraband or your a retarded pirate with a backward hoarding life style

that's the image the moneziters wish to program into the gullible global nomad. Hell even hire-a wife.com.

Christ, where is Keenu Reeves in his long black coat to sort this future mess out when U need him?

MichaelT
04-20-2017, 12:03 PM
It is just someone trolling, until they say anything.. I'll ignore it. On the other hand.. it could be them testing peoples reaction to the idea.

magiclight
04-20-2017, 02:24 PM
the real kicker will be when you have to rent your computer too, I mean you rent you internet you rent you software, probably even rent your training, how long can it be ?

A lot of companies are already doing it ( https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/ ) and I guess some people do it here also when they use a render farm, but yes, so far it is still optional :D

Look at John Deere ( https://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/ ) and GM is going down that path also.

Schwyhart
04-20-2017, 03:13 PM
I'm glad I moved over to Lightwave, but I'm sad this is becoming the reality.

MichaelT
04-20-2017, 05:47 PM
A lot of companies are already doing it ( https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/ ) and I guess some people do it here also when they use a render farm, but yes, so far it is still optional :D

Look at John Deere ( https://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/ ) and GM is going down that path also.

US laws.. again. You (the people in US, not *you* magiclight :) ) need do something about those insane laws you're having over there. It is really getting out of hand.

magiclight
04-21-2017, 01:46 AM
This is getting of topic but we are actually not much better over here, Ferrari requires buyers of some of there more expensive car models to actually get permisson from Ferrari before they can sell the car that you "own", Ferrari wants to know who you sell it to...

You can also not just buy a Ferrari these days, if Ferrari don't like you they can refuse to sell a car to you... ( https://www.carkeys.co.uk/news/want-to-buy-a-ferrari-it-s-not-as-simple-as-just-having-the-money )

MichaelT
04-21-2017, 02:57 AM
Well, refusing to sell to anyone is a sellers right. That is not the same thing as the case here, where a company essentially says you don't own the vehicle. Only the right to use it. Despite the customers thinking they actually bought the vehicle at the time. They certainly didn't agree to any "leasing" then. If they wanted to do that, I have little doubt that is what they would have looked for.

This does parallel to the software industry where this subscription (or "leasing") notion is spreading like a cancer. It becomes something good as long as you can pay for it. But what about those that can't for some reason? They lost their job, or whatever changed their financial situation. Should those people then be locked out from their profession, just because there were not offered the possibility to buy a permanent license (even an outdated one) when they could afford it? Or as in the farmers case above... loose their farm because a company says 'no, this vehicle is ours. We take it from you now'.

Short term greed is what this is all about. And taking rights, control and possibilities away from the consumer.

In the words of Yoda: "No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive" :)

50one
04-21-2017, 04:32 AM
When it comes to Ferrari or any other luxury brands, it's all about the image, thing is they don't want their cars to end up in complete noob hand that will bash it into very first tree just outside the dealership plus they don't want their cars to be associated with any illegal activities, therefore if you look scruffy, got bag full of $ and want to buy a supercar...

I think they also force their potential customers to take driving lessons before buying.

50one
04-21-2017, 05:27 AM
When it comes to Ferrari or any other luxury brands, it's all about the image, thing is they don't want their cars to end up in complete noob hand that will bash it into very first tree just outside the dealership plus they don't want their cars to be associated with any illegal activities, therefore if you look scruffy, got bag full of $ and want to buy a supercar...

I think they also force their potential customers to take driving lessons before buying.


Obviously if you're Saudis royal, then f rules and you can buy whatever the f you want...

TheLexx
04-21-2017, 07:51 AM
It is now official:-

https://www.foundry.com/products/modo/subscription-maintenance

sadkkf
04-21-2017, 07:59 AM
Well, refusing to sell to anyone is a sellers right.


I'm not so sure about that. In America, not selling to someone for any reason can be discrimination and that's illegal, or at least it used to be. If we don't treat each other fairly and equally everyone loses and hate wins.

MichaelT
04-21-2017, 08:07 AM
So they went down the Maxon path. Ok... that's not a problem. But... reading the notice I can see that the program will stop working if you let a payment lapse. This raises the question. Is modo now tied to a server to work? Or will the permanent license always work.. regardless of any internet connection like now?

MichaelT
04-21-2017, 08:12 AM
I'm not so sure about that. In America, not selling to someone for any reason can be discrimination and that's illegal, or at least it used to be. If we don't treat each other fairly and equally everyone loses and hate wins.

Discrimination needs to be proven, and if that is the case. Then yes, that would be illegal in many countries. That said, a seller usually have the right to block customers for a wide range of reasons. However, if the seller is in a monopoly situation.. then I think a seller doesn't have the right to prevent people from buying that sellers items. But I am not living in the US, so I obviously don't know how the law works there :)

TheLexx
04-21-2017, 08:15 AM
So they went down the Maxon path. Ok... that's not a problem. But... reading the notice I can see that the program will stop working if you let a payment lapse. This raises the question. Is modo now tied to a server to work? Or will the permanent license always work.. regardless of any internet connection like now?
It does indeed beg that question, and Foundry don't seem to be in too much of a hurry to clear that up. Did you notice that on the revamped Foundry site, people were complaining because the links to their permanent licences were simply not showing at all ? People have to go into the old Foundry site to retrieve their licences......whilst it is still up. Maybe Foundry did that deliberately.

sadkkf
04-21-2017, 08:16 AM
Discrimination needs to be proven, and if that is the case. Then yes, that would be illegal in many countries. That said, a seller usually have the right to block customers for a wide range of reasons. However, if the seller is in a monopoly situation.. then I think a seller doesn't have the right to prevent people from buying that sellers items. But I am not living in the US, so I obviously don't know how the law works there :)

I'm sure there are many valid reasons for choosing to not sell to someone and you're right, discrimination needs to be proven. Sometimes it's openly stated by the seller, which has caused a lot of backlash in certain cases here and those companies have closed.

It's difficult to follow some of these laws here as they're being rewritten all the time to make discrimination perfectly legal. Go figure.

MichaelT
04-21-2017, 08:43 AM
It does indeed beg that question, and Foundry don't seem to be in too much of a hurry to clear that up. Did you notice that on the revamped Foundry site, people were complaining because the links to their permanent licences were simply not showing at all ? People have to go into the old Foundry site to retrieve their licences......whilst it is still up. Maybe Foundry did that deliberately.

Yeah.. but since I've been burned by nefarious changes by other companies before.. I have the habit of downloading everything at time of purchase. And I make sure to have backups as well :)

Also, Modo 11 is already released. I just downloaded it.

MichaelT
04-21-2017, 08:51 AM
Yup... server activation it is. The old way is now "legacy". Without actually buying a new version I can't say if I will still get a proper license file. But somehow I doubt it.

Update:

Well, I *did* get a license file. And it *did* install without internet. ;)

Wickedpup
04-21-2017, 09:19 AM
...reading the notice I can see that the program will stop working if you let a payment lapse. This raises the question. Is modo now tied to a server to work? Or will the permanent license always work.. regardless of any internet connection like now? It will stop if you are on subscription.....if you are on maintenace "Keep your license, even if you stop paying maintenance."

gamedesign1
04-21-2017, 10:23 AM
I think companies should go the Allegorithmic route and let people rent where they are actually paying towards a permanant license

samurai_x
04-21-2017, 10:46 AM
Well Modo 11 came out before Lightwave next next year.

Maintenance model. 1 year free updates. After that no more updates even if the release cycle is not yet finished. So if the good stuff is after 1 year, you won't get it.

Pass

Will wait for the modo indie version.

MichaelT
04-21-2017, 10:54 AM
I think companies should go the Allegorithmic route and let people rent where they are actually paying towards a permanant license

^^^^^^ +1000

MichaelT
04-21-2017, 11:05 AM
at ~$59 I doubt they would continue with an Indie version much longer. If they haven't decided to end it already. I think they would just point to the subscription version and say: Subscribe.

MichaelT
04-21-2017, 05:14 PM
Oh, and the license thing.. Apparently 30 days only. I'm having doubts on this now. I'm not prepared to shell out for what amounts to a "perpetual brick" if their service ends for any reason.

Edit:

theFoundry confirmed to me that perpetual license will not stop working after 30 days. The only thing that happens is that if you're offline, you won't get notified of any new updates.

mborge
04-21-2017, 06:34 PM
It appears they've done away with updates and their "wait to update policy" - See, I'm one of those that sat back and waited to update until I saw something I wanted. I loved that courtesy from Luxology. IMHO - They're treading dangerous ground. Plus, now it makes sense why Brad left despite what he said. It's like, "We have to get rid of the guy that promised that so we can go against it!" ;p Yes, it's all very clear now!

I don't see update options when I click "Buy."

However, it is considerate that you can use the last version you subscribed to ( if you don't mind paying a penalty to rejoin later ) - and $399 isn't horrible.
Plus, as mentioned, on taxes "Subscriptions" are usually great write-offs

Oh well..."Nothin' lasts forever
And we both know hearts can change
And it's hard to hold a candle
In the cold November rain..."

Now, we wait to see if NT is prepared to launch a full frontal assault and gain some market share?!

Paul_Boland
04-21-2017, 06:45 PM
With so many companies going the subscription route, I fear the day Lightwave follows suite. I think it's crap that you are forced to pay a yearly rate to access your files you created. I hate subscription based software and avoid it like the plague!!

wingzeta
04-21-2017, 11:53 PM
Hopefully LW3DG / Newtek never go down this road. With a good product, they stand to gain a lot of market share from the competition who move to these rental schemes. The worry is that they get delusional, and try to be autodesk. If they take that route, they will fade away, as large studios will stick with AD, and small studios, and indy users will bite the bullet with Blender, due to lack of an affordable non-rental alternative.

gamedesign1
04-22-2017, 01:55 AM
Hopefully LW3DG / Newtek never go down this road. With a good product, they stand to gain a lot of market share from the competition who move to these rental schemes. The worry is that they get delusional, and try to be autodesk. If they take that route, they will fade away, as large studios will stick with AD, and small studios, and indy users will bite the bullet with Blender, due to lack of an affordable non-rental alternative.

I agree. If lightwave offered a rent to buy option along with the buy outright option they could win favour with a lot of artists.

gerry_g
04-22-2017, 05:52 AM
Price is good, the 'keep what you were renting if you bail paradigm' is what all rentals should offer, if they stick to it and don't do anything sneaky later, its cheaper than a yearly upgrade (as good as LW but for more features). True its a a pig in a poke as you have no idea at all what all those service updates will amount to and there is no hint of any wildly exiting must have new features billed for the release yet, for me that is the only real negative, and the fact that it is a new and different license agreement that stands apart from you regular one even if you are purchasing as an upgrade.

samurai_x
04-22-2017, 06:01 AM
at ~$59 I doubt they would continue with an Indie version much longer. If they haven't decided to end it already. I think they would just point to the subscription version and say: Subscribe.

$720 a year with subs and then you stop paying the subs and you have nothing. Can't open your files anymore.
Same as houdini indie.
I'm not a fan of those types of licenses.
Modo indie was really bang for the buck.

hrgiger
04-22-2017, 07:37 AM
I just got on Modo maintenance today. I think Foundry struck a very good balance between ensuring regular revenue for themselves to continue developing Modo and offering users a choice between subscription and a perpetual license with maintenance. I was paying $500 a year to upgrade my Modo license previously. Now I'm paying $100 less and still have a perpetual license that will keep working if and when I choose to stop paying maintenance. Its honestly the best outcome I could have hoped for.

People seem upset that there's a penalty if you get off maintenance and get back on it you end up paying more but those same people don't seem to understand that these companies, LW3DG included, have employees that need paid and it takes money to develop these applications. People say well I will upgrade when I see some killer release that's worth my time. That's all well and good but that's not really supporting development of an application you may or may not use to make a living on. I've bought every upgrade of LightWave since I started on LW6. Do you think I wanted LW10 or LW 2015? I consider them fairly small updates that personally I probably would have skipped but I believe in supporting development for an application I use to make money with. How do people sit around 'waiting for that killer release' but expect everyone else to pay for the development of that killer release? If you use software to make a living, you should be supporting its development. Period.

samurai_x
04-22-2017, 09:14 AM
I think it was a good gesture to reward loyal users with the $399 upgrade price with no time limit as to when you want to upgrade.
It was $499 last year afair. They do penalize user who skip by making it $599. But if you skip a few lackluster releases you can save anyway.
Like if people skipped lightwave 12-14 and just buy lightwave 15 they will probably save some money.

Modo 11 seems like a weaker release compared to modo 10 which had a lot to offer.
But with yearly maintenance, users will be in the same boat as nuke users who miss out on really good updates because you're only getting 1 year worth of free updates. If the cycle goes over a year, which it does for nuke, then you don't get any of the good stuff.

MichaelT
04-22-2017, 09:57 AM
I just got on Modo maintenance today. I think Foundry struck a very good balance between ensuring regular revenue for themselves to continue developing Modo and offering users a choice between subscription and a perpetual license with maintenance. I was paying $500 a year to upgrade my Modo license previously. Now I'm paying $100 less and still have a perpetual license that will keep working if and when I choose to stop paying maintenance. Its honestly the best outcome I could have hoped for.

People seem upset that there's a penalty if you get off maintenance and get back on it you end up paying more but those same people don't seem to understand that these companies, LW3DG included, have employees that need paid and it takes money to develop these applications. People say well I will upgrade when I see some killer release that's worth my time. That's all well and good but that's not really supporting development of an application you may or may not use to make a living on. I've bought every upgrade of LightWave since I started on LW6. Do you think I wanted LW10 or LW 2015? I consider them fairly small updates that personally I probably would have skipped but I believe in supporting development for an application I use to make money with. How do people sit around 'waiting for that killer release' but expect everyone else to pay for the development of that killer release? If you use software to make a living, you should be supporting its development. Period.

You managed to buy the maintenance? Wow... I just keep getting the no valid warning.. Or adding 0 products.. or even no reaction at all sometimes. That the error isn't the same every time, is the really fun part :)

- - - Updated - - -


I think it was a good gesture to reward loyal users with the $399 upgrade price with no time limit as to when you want to upgrade.
It was $499 last year afair. They do penalize user who skip by making it $599. But if you skip a few lackluster releases you can save anyway.
Like if people skipped lightwave 12-14 and just buy lightwave 15 they will probably save some money.

Modo 11 seems like a weaker release compared to modo 10 which had a lot to offer.
But with yearly maintenance, users will be in the same boat as nuke users who miss out on really good updates because you're only getting 1 year worth of free updates. If the cycle goes over a year, which it does for nuke, then you don't get any of the good stuff.

:) Yeah, it is a bit of a carrot and a whip now isn't it.

hrgiger
04-22-2017, 10:37 AM
I had to go through foundry support. My email was different from when I purchased, at least that was the reason they gave me. Also make sure to hit the individual button on the order page.

As far as the extent of updates, 10 was not exactly loaded with features out of the gate either. The meat of 10 didn't come until 10.1 and 10.2 when mesh ops, mesh lights, auto retopo and mesh fusion additions were added. 11 seems to have the same pattern.

As far as the price, you can't penalize someone by giving them a choice which the foundry has done here. It's no different than what LW3DG did when they said current users of lw would get next for 295, but people on versions previous to 2015 would have to pay more.

MichaelT
04-22-2017, 10:42 AM
aha, it will be very interesting what they tell me then. Because the only change for me is that I moved a few streets away :) I think they goofed, and they know about it.. but won't admit to it hehehe.

Schwyhart
04-22-2017, 10:49 AM
LW Should go back to using the dongle. :)
I actually wouldn't be opposed to it.

TheLexx
04-22-2017, 12:11 PM
I think LW is fine as it is now, but I infinitely prefer dongle to this new Modo licence model, though I appreciate opinions will differ.

MichaelT
04-22-2017, 02:18 PM
LW Should go back to using the dongle. :)
I actually wouldn't be opposed to it.

I would be massively opposed to it. It is a stupid protection scheme that doesn't work. Not to mention it is just asking for trouble somewhere down the road. Of the type.. oops.. no dongle! can't work type of thing.
And it doesn't work because it is easy to break, and just makes life harder for legal users. Not pirates. They would essentially be wasting their money for nothing.

MichaelT
04-22-2017, 04:03 PM
Oh the modo team really did snafu this one... permanent license doesn't work properly (30 day limits) despite being told differently. Items not appearing after purchase (and I assume, even the new proper permanent license) What a mess.

Now LWG... this is precisely the opportunity to come out with news of a new product, and highlight the benefits of your license. Its a marketing move that won't return.. and you need to act now.

gerry_g
04-22-2017, 04:56 PM
LW Should go back to using the dongle.
I actually wouldn't be opposed to it.

Fried mine several years ago, not a problem as I have permanent license, but had I not and had I been forced to get in touch with NewTek, get into shipping out the dud and waiting for the new one no thanks, being UK based that could take weeks, not cool, and what about all those "I lost my dongle and NewTek won't send me a new one because they don't believe me' hard luck stories we used to get on the forum back then, and then theres the forgetting to put it the right machine which meant finding it, fiddling around to put it in and doing a restart, and thats if you can remember where you put it last.

Marander
04-23-2017, 03:27 AM
Oh the modo team really did snafu this one... permanent license doesn't work properly (30 day limits) despite being told differently. Items not appearing after purchase (and I assume, even the new proper permanent license) What a mess.

Now LWG... this is precisely the opportunity to come out with news of a new product, and highlight the benefits of your license. Its a marketing move that won't return.. and you need to act now.

Wow, thanks for the insight info! I just completely lost any remaining interest in modo.

Yes, indeed this would be an opportunity. But I fear that LW Next don't have a chance feature-wise.

gamedesign1
04-23-2017, 04:15 AM
......


People seem upset that there's a penalty if you get off maintenance and get back on it you end up paying more but those same people don't seem to understand that these companies, LW3DG included, have employees that need paid and it takes money to develop these applications. People say well I will upgrade when I see some killer release that's worth my time. That's all well and good but that's not really supporting development of an application you may or may not use to make a living on. I've bought every upgrade of LightWave since I started on LW6. Do you think I wanted LW10 or LW 2015? I consider them fairly small updates that personally I probably would have skipped but I believe in supporting development for an application I use to make money with. How do people sit around 'waiting for that killer release' but expect everyone else to pay for the development of that killer release? If you use software to make a living, you should be supporting its development. Period.

Agreed +1

hrgiger
04-23-2017, 06:57 AM
Oh the modo team really did snafu this one... permanent license doesn't work properly (30 day limits) despite being told differently. Items not appearing after purchase (and I assume, even the new proper permanent license) What a mess.

Now LWG... this is precisely the opportunity to come out with news of a new product, and highlight the benefits of your license. Its a marketing move that won't return.. and you need to act now.

Huh? The only thing that stops working is subscription after 30 days of no internet connection check in or after you stop subscription. maintenance licenses are permanent and will continue to work indefinitely which is the $399 upgrades. Maintenance licenses are good for a year at a time and they're not version based. So if 12 comes out before the year is up, you will get a permanent license of 12.

MichaelT
04-23-2017, 07:19 AM
Huh? The only thing that stops working is subscription after 30 days of no internet connection check in or after you stop subscription. maintenance licenses are permanent and will continue to work indefinitely which is the $399 upgrades. Maintenance licenses are good for a year at a time and they're not version based. So if 12 comes out before the year is up, you will get a permanent license of 12.

I got a notice on my screen saying differently.. besides... I didn't get a new permanent license either... did you?
And modo11 is still not added in my profile either.

hrgiger
04-23-2017, 07:23 AM
Did you buy maintenance for 399? Then you have a permanent licensee. If you bought a subscription for 59 a month or 600 a year then you don't.

MichaelT
04-23-2017, 07:55 AM
Did you buy maintenance for 399? Then you have a permanent licensee. If you bought a subscription for 59 a month or 600 a year then you don't.

I got the right one (399) but like I said, I didn't get a new license.. nor is the new version listen in my account. The only reason I have a download is because I got the trial version earlier.
I got in touch with the licensing team, but so far haven't I heard anything. I think this is really messy handled. Btw.. a permanent license is a license I can use even if their business ends.
until I have that, I don't have a permanent license. So far I received no license at all. (login isn't a license)

hrgiger
04-23-2017, 08:22 AM
I got the right one (399) but like I said, I didn't get a new license.. nor is the new version listen in my account. The only reason I have a download is because I got the trial version earlier.
I got in touch with the licensing team, but so far haven't I heard anything. I think this is really messy handled. Btw.. a permanent license is a license I can use even if their business ends.
until I have that, I don't have a permanent license. So far I received no license at all. (login isn't a license)

Yes I saw your screen grab over at the foundry boards. I didn't see that screen myself but the new licensing is login based I believe to prevent someone from using a single license for multiple users (I think the limit is 2 simultaneous users at once). The login based licensing downloads the license file to your machine. I'm not sure about the doomsday foundry goes out of business scenario but I thought I saw that addressed somewhere. But I've seen it clarified several times that your Permanent license doesn't stop working after 30 days, you're just not able to get updates unless you login.

MichaelT
04-23-2017, 08:56 AM
:) Doomsday or not.. I will see what they say. If it turns out they don't provide a license that will work regardless of their business health, I will ask for my money back, and go elsewhere.

Oh and btw.. they are still working on their database that isn't working. The links to the missing content is in their forum. So yeah... not much working at the moment.

jasonwestmas
04-23-2017, 09:06 AM
I'm going to start leasing all of the products I make from now on. I am the only one who gets to own them. ;)

Anyway, I have no problem with rental as long as they offer perpetual too. That way we can choose which features we want to have forever and which ones we want to rent because we might not need them all the time.

MichaelT
04-23-2017, 09:55 AM
I don't have a problem with rental per say either.. as long as it is an option. And there are some programs I do rent.. but those are apps that I've chosen to rent after all.

hrgiger
04-23-2017, 11:31 AM
i talked to shane today and he said in the event of an unlikely doomsday event, they foundry would provide some type of transferable license file. he also said your downloads in your account should be fixed by monday.

i dont necessarily have an isse with rental either even if it wasnt a choice although i certainly prefer it. But it would have to be something i just couldnt do without which Modo isnt quite there yet for me. after all i was on Adobe cc for 4 years because i didnt have a good enough replacement for photoshop. But now with Affinity, its bye bye Adobe.

jperk
04-23-2017, 12:00 PM
If Newtek goes rental w/ LW and Modo goes rental...I will most likely switch to Blender.

MichaelT
04-23-2017, 01:02 PM
i talked to shane today and he said in the event of an unlikely doomsday event, they foundry would provide some type of transferable license file. he also said your downloads in your account should be fixed by monday.

i dont necessarily have an isse with rental either even if it wasnt a choice although i certainly prefer it. But it would have to be something i just couldnt do without which Modo isnt quite there yet for me. after all i was on Adobe cc for 4 years because i didnt have a good enough replacement for photoshop. But now with Affinity, its bye bye Adobe.

That's good to hear. But in all honesty.. this means that I will not extend any more. Because it also means that I cannot count on activation to work.

There are so many things that can go wrong with relying on a remote server for activation to work (or in the event of re-installation etc.. take your pick)

Edit: Removed my needless ramblings... In short though. I have worked with this.. so I have experience in how frequently these things fail. That's why I don't trust any of it.

But thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.

Also, I wish I could ditch Adobe.. but too many dependencies... But its shrinking. I've already ditched Quixel in favor of Substance Painter.
I wonder if there is a good audio editing tool out there too, so I don't have to rely on Audition.

Oh and I got Affinity too now... I tested it and found out it could handle painting & editing, fills etc.. in 32bit (which photoshop for some crazy reason can't) better than Photoshop, and that was enough for me to pick it up.

Wickedpup
04-23-2017, 02:29 PM
Just out of curiosity: Do you use ZBrush?

erikals
04-23-2017, 04:29 PM
I wonder if there is a good audio editing tool out there too, so I don't have to rely on Audition.
it really depends on what you want (mixing sounds, making music, making music videos)
check these for example >
http://alternativeto.net/software/adobe-audition

MichaelT
04-23-2017, 06:45 PM
Just out of curiosity: Do you use ZBrush?

Yes, but that was a choice. And I've made sure I can solve that problem, should the need arise.
(No it doesn't involve cracks.)

MichaelT
04-23-2017, 06:49 PM
it really depends on what you want (mixing sounds, making music, making music videos)
check these for example >
http://alternativeto.net/software/adobe-audition

I write music, and make sound effects that require editing.
I haven't made any music videos for nearly 25 years :)

erikals
04-23-2017, 08:02 PM
i just got a propellerhead reason upgrade, mainly to do very simple tech synth tunes
(just a few seconds long, i'm no musician though, not even close)

for piano, there is for example > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9Ho4IAP25g
(for piano you might need a 88 midi keyboard)

for simple sound effects, the free Audacity should be ok.

MichaelT
04-23-2017, 11:39 PM
:) I have Propellerheads Reason, but I never use it [I don't like that they don't play nice with DAWs] so instead use FLStudio with all bells, and whistles. Plus a very large collection of VSTs, and other sound libraries.
I have a piano [Yamaha] but I don't use it either, as I don't play very well by hand. I am also too tight for space in the room I use as an office, so I only use DAWs for creating music & sounds.

samurai_x
04-24-2017, 12:35 AM
If Newtek goes rental w/ LW and Modo goes rental...I will most likely switch to Blender.

You will end up with less opportunities. Have you checked the companies in florida? Any of them using blender as the core pipeline? Not poor indie companies. Real companies.
I would stick with maya. Lightwave for rendering.

Asticles
04-24-2017, 04:08 AM
For me it seems an investors' movement, now that Autodesk has made it, they want the same. Also, in few years they will sell the company another time, so they need to revalue it.

The problem is that within a few years the new company could make changes in this scheme. As poor freelance (some sort) I cannot pay every year for an app that is not my main app. Currently are Lightwave and Blender; and if Lightwave also goes rental, I would switch to Houdini. If I have to pay more, I will pay for the best. IMHO.

TheLexx
04-24-2017, 04:26 AM
No one particularly talking about 4D as any alternative (to Modo), given the nice licencing model - is it the price putting people off ?

Asticles
04-24-2017, 04:52 AM
No one particularly talking about 4D as any alternative (to Modo), given the nice licencing model - is it the price putting people off ?

3.630,00€ in spain... (studio)

Marander
04-24-2017, 05:07 AM
No one particularly talking about 4D as any alternative (to Modo), given the nice licencing model - is it the price putting people off ?

It seems not to be in the price range of the typical LW user.

I have C4D and I'm very happy with it.

When I occasionally open LW Modeler or Layout to do / try or compare something I can't believe how tedious it is, how many steps I have to do manually that C4D does automatically for me. I also have many C4D plugins and lots of them are extreme time savers or can do incredible things.

The licensing doesn't require any online connection. I even get a nice box every year with the media (now a USB stick, before DVDs), shortcut handout etc. The release date is the same time every year. Therefore I'm glad to pay for the maintenance (which is not required in any way but saves alot of money for the new releases and provides free access to the Cineversity).

Maxon has employed lots of new developers recently. The software is rock stable. It it so advanced in almost every aspect and works nicely with most industry standards and other software. There are countless tutorials and ressources (materials, objects, scenes, Cineversity etc.) and everyday it gets more.

Note that you can get a sidegrade from LW and you can start with a lower version (Prime, Broadcast) before getting Studio. I got mine with 30% anniversary + sidegrade discount.

The only downside is there are so many cool and tempting plugins, material collections and renderers. I can strongly recommend Vray, Cycles4D, X-Particles, Forester, People in Motion 2, anima, HB Modeling Scripts, Nitro4D plugins, biomekk EnhanceC4D, GSG HDRI Studio (and/or GSG HDRI Link for other renderers then Physical), GSG TopCoat, GSG Transform and GSG Signal for example. Materials from MotionSquared, Muse Creative, GSG, Renderking and Render&Beyond (all C4D native or VrayForC4D). cgaxis sells their models in C4D native and VrayForC4D format. C4D itself has materials, sample scenes, various objects and hdri images built-in already. Then there are many free Cineversity plugins if you're on maintenance.

Another thing: C4D is easy to learn and fun to use and you can even load your existing LWO and LWS files directly. For LWNext you will most likely have to re-texture and re-light your existing scenes and learn a new renderer anyway. On top of that you will probably have to fight the initial bugs and instabilities.

The only thing that could re-gain my interest in LW Next is: Built-in and improved NevronMotion (supporting standard rigs like DAZ, AXYZ design, Renderpeople, Mixamo/Fuse etc. or at least have corresponding retarget templates and maybe facial animation), better Character Animation and Weighting tools in Layout, OpenSubDiv and Substance support. Maybe the new volumetrics with an improved particle system. I really don't ever want to use Modeler again.

MichaelT
04-24-2017, 06:00 AM
Well, I got a response from theFoundry, and apparently their issues won't be fixed until sometime during the week.
That said, I will stick with what I have.. but I won't renew later. I'll stay on the version I have, unless there is a very (very) good reason to upgrade.
So I'll be saving a lot of money from now on... thanks.. I guess :) I'd rather keep on subscribing to Houdini, It is a much much better deal.

lardbros
04-24-2017, 06:13 AM
I'm with you on that mate.

I refuse most stuff that's rental only, that's why I'm actually moving away from CG to something else
.

Mortgage, Car finance, internet, netflix, tv licence, spotify, software, gear rental for some the lost goes on.

What does it mean to 'own' something these days?

You're quitting CG completely, purely because of software rental? That's quite a stance to take, will you not miss it?

hrgiger
04-24-2017, 06:53 AM
Well, I got a response from theFoundry, and apparently their issues won't be fixed until sometime during the week.
That said, I will stick with what I have.. but I won't renew later. I'll stay on the version I have, unless there is a very (very) good reason to upgrade.
So I'll be saving a lot of money from now on... thanks.. I guess :) I'd rather keep on subscribing to Houdini, It is a much much better deal.
well no question Houdini is powerful and i wouldnt even begin to comare the two apps. But Houdini indie is not a perpetual license is it?

50one
04-24-2017, 07:23 AM
You're quitting CG completely, purely because of software rental? That's quite a stance to take, will you not miss it?

I will miss it for sure, however I'll still be around the industry somehow and keep my LW copy updated for as long as possible, Modo? I somehow doubt about it's future, but maybe I'm wrong, will see I guess...

It wasn't just the software rental, but many other factors, pay rates, respect towards what we do, interaction with people and biggest one the amount of time one has to devote to this industry to be succesfull.

Things look different if you live with your mates, you're young and can spend a shitload of time in front of the monitor, but when you're older, got family it's hard to find good balance, all those articles ad people claiming to be sucesfull in this regard are just kidding themselves and everyone else.

It's not only CG, couple of different industries who promote this gig economy are struggling too. Saturated market, pay rates keep going down etc.

I'm not saying I'm not the one to blame, so bot pointing fingers at any directions, just myself. Could have learned more Zbrush or whatever and have more possibilities....but that translates into more hours spent looking at screen and also competing against kids who can work for 1/4 of what I'm looking for.

That just my opinion IMHO.
Sorry for derailing.

jwiede
04-24-2017, 08:09 AM
It seems not to be in the price range of the typical LW user.

I have C4D and I'm very happy with it.

When I occasionally open LW Modeler or Layout to do / try or compare something I can't believe how tedious it is, how many steps I have to do manually that C4D does automatically for me. I also have many C4D plugins and lots of them are extreme time savers or can do incredible things.

The licensing doesn't require any online connection. I even get a nice box every year with the media (now a USB stick, before DVDs), shortcut handout etc. The release date is the same time every year. Therefore I'm glad to pay for the maintenance (which is not required in any way but saves alot of money for the new releases and provides free access to the Cineversity).

Maxon has employed lots of new developers recently. The software is rock stable. It it so advanced in almost every aspect and works nicely with most industry standards and other software. There are countless tutorials and ressources (materials, objects, scenes, Cineversity etc.) and everyday it gets more.

Agreed 100%. It may cost more, but you get a LOT of benefits for that additional cost, and once you're bought in, the annual MSA upgrade cost is quite low here (~$630/yr) and includes Cineversity membership.

- - - Updated - - -


well no question Houdini is powerful and i wouldnt even begin to comare the two apps. But Houdini indie is not a perpetual license is it?

Nope, and their licensing scheme has its fair share of problems as well.

MichaelT
04-24-2017, 08:19 AM
well no question Houdini is powerful and i wouldnt even begin to comare the two apps. But Houdini indie is not a perpetual license is it?

No, but I can buy one today if I wanted to. But that isn't the point.. my point is that is I am being forced down the subscription path anyway [because that is what this maintenance really is] then I will just stick with Houdini.
In the old model, I could upgrade whenever it pleased me.. no threats about. Oh, skip this date and well slap you with a +$200 increase. So don't you dare :) (Sorry, watching a bit of Monty Python as of late)
but you get my point.. their way of dealing with all of this isn't very nice. Quite the opposite.

With the Houdini team there is another tune entirely... -We hear you want proper modelling tools? Ok, well work on including that. Oh, and btw don't forget that your $200 subscription will expire at...
See the difference? Even with theFoundrys cheapest offer, they will still be 3x more expensive. And not only that.. they do offer permanent licensing options. And they already have a way to help out with
offline activation. No maybes, perhaps etc.. like we hear from the other team. Sure, we have permanent.. but it really is up to them to honor it (should they go out of business etc..) The choice is no longer ours,
what is worse is that they didn't say anything about it. And I don't trust anything about the 30 day thing either.. We will see how it really works in 30 days. And they just happily dropped that bombshell,
expecting a "thank you kindly good sir" in return. So no, won't be staying with that sort of mentality.

Asticles
04-24-2017, 08:52 AM
The problem with houdini is that you cannot change easily your license between computers (like working at home and tomorrow at work). They should make a different solution for Indie ones.

jperk
04-24-2017, 10:28 AM
You will end up with less opportunities. Have you checked the companies in florida? Any of them using blender as the core pipeline? Not poor indie companies. Real companies.
I would stick with maya. Lightwave for rendering.

True. Everyone is using Maya, 3ds Max, or Cinema 4D in FL. I did a quick search for 3D jobs in FL:

MONSTER

49 3ds max

14 maya

15 cinema 4D

4 blender

2 lightwave

1 modo


-------------------------

LINKEDIN

31 maya

16 3Ds Max

9 cinema 4d

1 Blender 3d

0 Lightwave

0 Modo

------------------------

GLASSDOOR

63 3ds Max
54 Maya
26 Cinema 4D
2 Blender
0 Modo
0 LW
0 Houdini

Still not a lot of options for 3D in FL compared to say Texas or Cali. Here is a list of 3D related jobs throughout United States not just FL:

-------------------------

LINKEDIN

926 maya

379 3Ds Max

218 cinema 4d

131 Zbrush

67 Houdini

51 Mudbox

50 Modo

37 Blender 3d

9 Lightwave

0 ChronoSculpt

Of course this doesn't include freelancers. I'm sure artists at many of the studios offer positions for Maya, 3Ds Max, etc are most likely using alternatives such as LW, Blender, Chronosculpt, Zbrush, etc. Even if its not mentioned in job requirements.

Also, I was discussing subscription module with my professor at school. My university was actually saving more money when they had perpetual educational licenses through autodesk and adobe. I think he said it was costing like 13-15k and my university now spends around 20-30k for the software suites from Adobe,Autodesk, etc. These companies want to make it seem you are saving money now. Not true. The only good think about subscription module is that the software stays up to date and no upgrade fees. Again, rental is okay for studios on a time frame for project or if you have a commission lined up via freelance/ or studio.
http://www.worldcadaccess.com/blog/2015/01/this-is-how-much-more-youll-be-paying-for-autodesk-software.html

Personally, I think the rental subscription is a good idea for studios who have a set time frame for a project. Rentals make since. However, I think it sucks for freelancers or those who want to use the software outside of the studio. Some studios are dropping Autodesk because of this new module. Even though perpetual licenses seemed like more money many smaller studios were fine using older licenses. Or so I've heard.

hrgiger
04-24-2017, 11:11 AM
No, but I can buy one today if I wanted to. But that isn't the point.. my point is that is I am being forced down the subscription path anyway [because that is what this maintenance really is] then I will just stick with Houdini.
In the old model, I could upgrade whenever it pleased me.. no threats about. Oh, skip this date and well slap you with a +$200 increase. So don't you dare :) (Sorry, watching a bit of Monty Python as of late)
but you get my point.. their way of dealing with all of this isn't very nice. Quite the opposite.

With the Houdini team there is another tune entirely... -We hear you want proper modelling tools? Ok, well work on including that. Oh, and btw don't forget that your $200 subscription will expire at...
See the difference? Even with theFoundrys cheapest offer, they will still be 3x more expensive. And not only that.. they do offer permanent licensing options. And they already have a way to help out with
offline activation. No maybes, perhaps etc.. like we hear from the other team. Sure, we have permanent.. but it really is up to them to honor it (should they go out of business etc..) The choice is no longer ours,
what is worse is that they didn't say anything about it. And I don't trust anything about the 30 day thing either.. We will see how it really works in 30 days. And they just happily dropped that bombshell,
expecting a "thank you kindly good sir" in return. So no, won't be staying with that sort of mentality.

If that's the way you choose to see it. Except with maintenance, you are getting a permanent license so I don't see the issue. I pay 399 this year. 5 years from now and if I never resigned for maintenance, I still own whatever version I had when maintenance ended. In 5 years of Houdini, you're at $1000 to have used the software the whole time. People choose to see a penalty for not buying instead of seeing the discount for buying every year that's their choice. Software development costs money and if I'm using lw or using Modo I'm upgrading each year to support development of software that makes me money in return.

But let's not forget the fact that LightWave as well has moved to a maintenance system and if the prices they indicated before are true, it's worse than for Modo. Whether or not they're calling it maintenance, it's the exact same thing. Even worse actually because it's restricted to the version and not time so you might miss out on the next version of it falls within your year. They said that upgrades would be 295 as long as you didn't skip one. But if you do, the price would be 795. So foundry charges $200 more for a late upgrade but lw3DG will charge $500. Which looks better now? Not to mention there have been 6 releases of Modo since lw 2015 came out.

Asticles
04-24-2017, 11:36 AM
If that's the way you choose to see it. Except with maintenance, you are getting a permanent license so I don't see the issue. I pay 399 this year. 5 years from now and if I never resigned for maintenance, I still own whatever version I had when maintenance ended. In 5 years of Houdini, you're at $1000 to have used the software the whole time. People choose to see a penalty for not buying instead of seeing the discount for buying every year that's their choice. Software development costs money and if I'm using lw or using Modo I'm upgrading each year to support development of software that makes me money in return.

But let's not forget the fact that LightWave as well has moved to a maintenance system and if the prices they indicated before are true, it's worse than for Modo. Whether or not they're calling it maintenance, it's the exact same thing. Even worse actually because it's restricted to the version and not time so you might miss out on the next version of it falls within your year. They said that upgrades would be 295 as long as you didn't skip one. But if you do, the price would be 795. So foundry charges $200 more for a late upgrade but lw3DG will charge $500. Which looks better now? Not to mention there have been 6 releases of Modo since lw 2015 came out.

Yes, but with modo you have a version number change every year; with lightwave maybe 2-3 years. So you're spending less. Anyway, they're focused on Next, so until it arises, we don't have any clue of which releases speed we will have. Personally, I'm fine without the year naming, a pity.

djwaterman
04-24-2017, 12:08 PM
I will miss it for sure, however I'll still be around the industry somehow and keep my LW copy updated for as long as possible, Modo? I somehow doubt about it's future, but maybe I'm wrong, will see I guess...

It wasn't just the software rental, but many other factors, pay rates, respect towards what we do, interaction with people and biggest one the amount of time one has to devote to this industry to be succesfull.

Things look different if you live with your mates, you're young and can spend a shitload of time in front of the monitor, but when you're older, got family it's hard to find good balance, all those articles ad people claiming to be sucesfull in this regard are just kidding themselves and everyone else.

It's not only CG, couple of different industries who promote this gig economy are struggling too. Saturated market, pay rates keep going down etc.

I'm not saying I'm not the one to blame, so bot pointing fingers at any directions, just myself. Could have learned more Zbrush or whatever and have more possibilities....but that translates into more hours spent looking at screen and also competing against kids who can work for 1/4 of what I'm looking for.

That just my opinion IMHO.
Sorry for derailing.

A realistic evaluation of the current state of things.

jperk
04-24-2017, 12:09 PM
Yes, but with modo you have a version number change every year; with lightwave maybe 2-3 years. So you're spending less. Anyway, they're focused on Next, so until it arises, we don't have any clue of which licensing program and releases speed we will have. Personally, I'm fine without the year naming, a pity.

Newtek has clarified both publicly and personally via email that "Next" will cost $295 to upgrade from current 2015 version. Full commercial license will be $1,195. Don't think Newtek is going subscription.

Asticles
04-24-2017, 12:12 PM
Newtek has clarified both publicly and personally via email that "Next" will cost $295 to upgrade from current 2015 version. Full commercial license will be $1,195. Don't think Newtek is going subscription.

Sorry, but I don't trust any company, anymore. :P

I will change my post, maybe I was too exaggerated.

jperk
04-24-2017, 12:15 PM
Sorry, but I don't trust any company, anymore. :P

I feel you there. I'm thinking about purchasing LW 2015 educational for $195 over summer. Taking advantage of student discount while I'm still in college. Hoping to later upgrade to commercial via $295 upgrade once "Next" comes around. However, I will be very upset if I spend money on Newtek product thinking I'm getting a perpetual license only for Newtek to switch pricing modules to subscription. Hopefully this is not the case, but it seems Newtek won't be doing this at least from what they stated in 2015 and what they informed me of last week via email.

Would be sad for Newtek to sell LW out like that.

Asticles
04-24-2017, 12:22 PM
I bought recently modo, when it was 10.1, I think. And now I'm a bit screwed with this. Maybe I will change the license to cinema, but first I want to see LW Next.

If LwNext arises before summer, it will be also 195$?

jperk
04-24-2017, 12:28 PM
I bought recently modo, when it was 10.1, I think. And now I'm a bit screwed with this. Maybe I will change the license to cinema, but first I want to see LW Next.

If LwNext arises before summer, it will be also 195$?

$195 is the educational price of LW2015 as of now. Not sure if that stays the same for LwNext educational. Regardless, Newtek gives users w/ student license a opportunity to upgrade to commercial the same price a commercial user would pay to upgrade. So it will be $295. Newtek is rewarding owners of LW2015 so if you have a previous version it will cost $795 to upgrade. That's a sweet deal.

calilifestyle
04-24-2017, 12:37 PM
OT but DaVinci resolve 14 just dropped into Beta and i believe the price is 299 unless it's a typo.

MichaelT
04-24-2017, 01:41 PM
I see it this way.. we lost rights and gained restrictions. And since they entered the subscription market, they will be judged accordingly. C4D suddenly looks a lot more appealing.

Greenlaw
04-24-2017, 03:15 PM
OT but DaVinci resolve 14 just dropped into Beta and i believe the price is 299 unless it's a typo.

Getting a little OT but, does anybody know if Blackmagic Design's Fusion will go on sale during NAB? I still haven't upgraded from (Eyeon's) version 6, but came close to getting a new BMD license a few times. If it was on sale, I'd go for it, especially since 6 got broken under Windows 10. I've mainly been using AE these days, but sometimes I miss using Fusion--especially with LightWave.

I guess I can sort of get this post back on-topic if I mentioned that the reason I never upgraded my Fusion license was because Eyeon had switched to subscription. I was actually okay with that for a while, and maintained two personal licenses under subscription for about two years. But over time, I didn't feel I was seeing the level of development they promised, and it didn't make sense for me to keep it up. After BMD bought out Fusion and did away with subs, I thought I might go back but obviously hadn't done that yet.

As for Modo, I stopped upgrading at 601. I still fire it up occasionally when I need to do something I can't easily do in LightWave, 3DC or ZB, but that seems to happen rarely these days.

jperk
04-24-2017, 03:54 PM
Getting a little OT but, does anybody know if Blackmagic Design's Fusion will go on sale during NAB? I still haven't upgraded from (Eyeon's) version 6, but came close to getting a new BMD license a few times. If it was on sale, I'd go for it, especially since 6 got broken under Windows 10. I've mainly been using AE these days, but sometimes I miss using Fusion--especially with LightWave.

I guess I can sort of get this post back on-topic if I mentioned that the reason I never upgraded my Fusion license was because Eyeon had switched to subscription. I was actually okay with that for a while, and maintained two personal licenses under subscription for about two years. But over time, I didn't feel I was seeing the level of development they promised, and it didn't make sense for me to keep it up. After BMD bought out Fusion and did away with subs, I thought I might go back but obviously hadn't done that yet.

As for Modo, I stopped upgrading at 601. I still fire it up occasionally when I need to do something I can't easily do in LightWave, 3DC or ZB, but that seems to happen rarely these days.

I run Win10 and tried running the free version of Fusion. It was very slow and sluggish for some odd reason. Made my computer run awkwardly as well as it was loaded. Had to uninstall it.

Greenlaw
04-24-2017, 04:21 PM
Yes, I should have mentioned that the free version works with Windows 10. I'm talking about the full version of Eyeon's 6 and the full version of the BMD's current Fusion. The free BMD version worked fine here the last time I used it but I rely a lot on third-party plugins, scripts and network rendering, which aren't available in the free version.

Which reminds me, one thing I didn't like about the BMD version (free or full version) was that they dropped .avi support. I read they were working on it. Did it ever come back? I'm mainly concerned about that because .avi still runs faster in Vegas than .mov does.

fablefox
04-24-2017, 10:19 PM
You're quitting CG completely, purely because of software rental? That's quite a stance to take, will you not miss it?

I do missed it. And I confirm what 50one replied. I am a DBA now but I still keep my finger in this by having fun with Blender, and help testing/replying bugs here and there. Still subs to 3D World on ZINIO, but I don't see being a 3d animator working for another company soon.

My dream these days is no longer being a 3d animator on a feature film, but early retirement. (long story short, i was hospitalized for five days because of burnout. i came out a different person.

OlaHaldor
04-25-2017, 01:02 AM
Getting a little OT but, does anybody know if Blackmagic Design's Fusion will go on sale during NAB?

BMD's prices are so ridiculously low they're not going on sale. They earn their money because the only way you can get video I/O is with their own hardware. That's where the money is.

I was shocked they lowered the price of Resolve so much though. They just keep destroying the fundamental business of us who's invested a lot of money in this. When Resolve Lite was launched, I lost customers because they suddenly could get the same tools as me for free (not that $1000 is such big money when you come to think of it, they have $20K cameras + probably the same worth of lenses, but funny how brains work when they can't value that money for such an incredible tool) and thought they could do it themselves - without the equipment I see necessary, such as calibrated high-end monitors, panels, scopes etc.. Some of them hired me back to their facilities to grade with mouse/keyboard on their fancy and brand new iMac. It was horrible. :screwy:

Due to the mentioned events, 3D is my business now (trying to get on topic guys, just hang in there) and modo is my choice for anything model/uv at least :D
(I still have my dongle, monitor, video I/O and a fantastic JLCooper control panel, so in case I get the chance to do some color, I usually say yes.)

I'm on the Production Collective, and I asked kindly whether Nuke/Mari/Modo would be possible to use with the "log in anywhere" license, but nope. Nodelocked or floating. So still can't use it on my laptop unless I purchase a second license. Bummer! :(

So I have a choice: keep maintenance for the entire Production Collective and buy a second perpetual license of modo alone for the laptop, or possibly subscription so I can log in and out as I please.

Asticles
04-25-2017, 01:30 AM
I do missed it. And I confirm what 50one replied. I am a DBA now but I still keep my finger in this by having fun with Blender, and help testing/replying bugs here and there. Still subs to 3D World on ZINIO, but I don't see being a 3d animator working for another company soon.

My dream these days is no longer being a 3d animator on a feature film, but early retirement. (long story short, i was hospitalized for five days because of burnout. i came out a different person.

Sad to hear that. In my case I burned out being IT Admin, and jumped to 3d.

Best wishes.

Asticles
04-25-2017, 01:37 AM
BMD's prices are so ridiculously low they're not going on sale. They earn their money because the only way you can get video I/O is with their own hardware. That's where the money is.

I was shocked they lowered the price of Resolve so much though. They just keep destroying the fundamental business of us who's invested a lot of money in this. When Resolve Lite was launched, I lost customers because they suddenly could get the same tools as me for free (not that $1000 is such big money when you come to think of it, they have $20K cameras + probably the same worth of lenses, but funny how brains work when they can't value that money for such an incredible tool) and thought they could do it themselves - without the equipment I see necessary, such as calibrated high-end monitors, panels, scopes etc.. Some of them hired me back to their facilities to grade with mouse/keyboard on their fancy and brand new iMac. It was horrible. :screwy:

Due to the mentioned events, 3D is my business now (trying to get on topic guys, just hang in there) and modo is my choice for anything model/uv at least :D
(I still have my dongle, monitor, video I/O and a fantastic JLCooper control panel, so in case I get the chance to do some color, I usually say yes.)

I'm on the Production Collective, and I asked kindly whether Nuke/Mari/Modo would be possible to use with the "log in anywhere" license, but nope. Nodelocked or floating. So still can't use it on my laptop unless I purchase a second license. Bummer! :(

So I have a choice: keep maintenance for the entire Production Collective and buy a second perpetual license of modo alone for the laptop, or possibly subscription so I can log in and out as I please.

Nodelock licences suck for Freelancers. Some companies don't understand that we move between machines.

Greenlaw
04-25-2017, 02:58 AM
I agree. When I was freelancing, it was really convenient to be able to run my copy of LightWave, Fusion, or Creative Cloud between my home studio, my laptop, and/or on another computer as needed.

I think CC is nice because if I have AE, Illustrator or Photoshop active on too many computers, I can easily deactivate my license from other computers through the web and get back to work. The Fusion dongle made me nervous--I was always afraid I'd leave it somewhere or break it.

Toon Boom Storyboard Pro is a pain in the butt because I can only activate it on one computer, and I have to deactivate it from their server before I can launch it to another computer, and then I can only do that a couple of times or I get locked out for a few days. I finally decided to just leave it on my tablet but I'm not happy about that. This kind of licensing makes me less enthusiastic about their products.

Asticles
04-25-2017, 03:59 AM
With Lightwave licensing all the process is easy. The only problem is that it is also easy for someone to grab your license file from your computer, if you're at work. Modo online activation is great provided that they don't have problems with their servers and you don't have also with your connection, at the end of the activated month. I expect if this is the case, you don't loose the ability to launch the program.

MichaelT
04-25-2017, 04:44 AM
Nodelocks sucks... In the building where I live, they are doing electrical work, and I lost two computers in 5 months. Naturally some companies went suspicious on me, thinking that I am a pirate. So I had not only to buy entirely new computers twice (expensive ones) I had to go through explaining myself as well. Making me feel like a criminal. So that is where much of my (quite recent) hostility towards this comes from. In bought a high performance UPS to protect myself against this in the future. Last time I experienced voltage jumps like this was when I lived on the countryside 30 years ago, during lightning strikes :/ And like Asticles mentioned.. you need to rely on the connection. We had none in our house for nearly a day yesterday, I was limited to my mobile phone.

jasonwestmas
04-25-2017, 03:49 PM
after all i was on Adobe cc for 4 years because i didnt have a good enough replacement for photoshop. But now with Affinity, its bye bye Adobe.

That's pretty cool actually.

hrgiger
04-25-2017, 06:37 PM
That's pretty cool actually.

Yep, and looks like BlackMagics Davinci Resolve is going to replace Adobe Premiere too. Inexpensive perpetual licenses.

MichaelT
04-26-2017, 12:25 AM
And if you don't need the studio version, it's even free.

OlaHaldor
04-26-2017, 02:01 AM
Yep, and looks like BlackMagics Davinci Resolve is going to replace Adobe Premiere too. Inexpensive perpetual licenses.
They've never charged for new versions. I still got my dongle from 2009 that came with Resolve 7 for the first time on Mac. I still keep updating, not paying a dime. It also works on both Mac and Windows.

MichaelT
04-26-2017, 03:00 AM
Just saw the Blackmagic release video... holy crap.. I didn't know they bought Fairlight, and included all the audio editing tools into DaVinci.. Buying it now. Bought Affinity as well.. no more reliance on Adobe. Bye bye Adobe. Hello Blackmagic Design. What a relief that I no longer have to hold on to Adobe. Had no idea that there was a tool out there this capable.

TheLexx
04-26-2017, 03:57 AM
Makes me wonder if a price reduction for Fusion is also on the cards. One day Fusion might become integrated with Resolve. If BM ever got hold of some "lesser" programs like Hexagon and Messiah, just imagine what they might do with them.

MichaelT
04-26-2017, 04:17 AM
maybe, but (at least I) look at Nuke being its only real competitor, and that they already can provide license for 6 people, for a cost that is still lower than Nuke. But I sure hope so :)

tyrot
04-26-2017, 05:43 AM
Just saw the Blackmagic release video... holy crap.. I didn't know they bought Fairlight, and included all the audio editing tools into DaVinci.. Buying it now. Bought Affinity as well.. no more reliance on Adobe. Bye bye Adobe. Hello Blackmagic Design. What a relief that I no longer have to hold on to Adobe. Had no idea that there was a tool out there this capable.

i was a keen supporter of adobe. But i really hated updateds and increased cost ... and never ending other annoyance.. so i left them .. affinity is really really good. helped me a lot.. also resolve will replace premiere and audition. may be hitfilm for after effects .. and done .. i WANT to have my software ...

modo? no comments ... lightwave is here .. they can come back ...


oh btw .. NT may sell LW to blackmagic design i do not mind AT ALL!

MichaelT
04-26-2017, 05:58 AM
I never heard such a rumor that BM might acquire LW. Or was that a speculation on your part?

tyrot
04-26-2017, 06:13 AM
of course speculation :))

Snosrap
04-26-2017, 08:20 AM
of course speculation :))

Wouldn't that be nice. NT makes big bucks from their video stuff and even came out with a standard (NDI) but LW languishes in obscurity. :)

kopperdrake
04-26-2017, 08:40 AM
Totally OT, but as someone mentioned Hitfilm, is there any way to get LW's camera path into Hitfilm? I only ask as the Hitfilm/Davinci Resolve looks like a great thing. I already like Serif's offerings, though I haven't jumped ship from Adobe yet, still assessing the options. It looks like it's getting there though.

Schwyhart
04-26-2017, 09:33 AM
Just throwing this out there, but Apple's FCPX, Motion, Compressor and Logic are perpetual licenses and cheap.
IMO, FCPX is better than Premier. Compressor is better than Encoder at some things and vice versa. Motion is just different and can't be compared to AE. I've seen a ton of amazing things made with Motion.

Just another alternative to Adobe.

Snosrap
04-26-2017, 10:42 AM
Totally OT, but as someone mentioned Hitfilm, is there any way to get LW's camera path into Hitfilm? I only ask as the Hitfilm/Davinci Resolve looks like a great thing. I already like Serif's offerings, though I haven't jumped ship from Adobe yet, still assessing the options. It looks like it's getting there though.

Yep, Jmation made one. You can find details here: http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?147053-LW2Hitfilm-Lightwave-to-Hitfilm-exporter

Greenlaw
04-26-2017, 01:17 PM
They've never charged for new versions. I still got my dongle from 2009 that came with Resolve 7 for the first time on Mac. I still keep updating, not paying a dime. It also works on both Mac and Windows.

That's good to know. As mentioned earlier, I stopped upgrading Fusion after a couple of years of subscription with Eyeon because it was getting too expensive for me to maintain two licenses and six render nodes every year. Since unlimited render nodes are included and subscription is gone, I've decided to save up for the upgrade. (For one license anyway, I really don't need two anymore.) I haven't read anything new regarding the missing .avi support but I can deal with it until they fix that

Schwyhart
04-26-2017, 02:59 PM
Bought Affinity as well.. no more reliance on Adobe. Bye bye Adobe.

I really like Affinity Photo & Designer. It's easier to use and makes more sense to me.

jperk
04-26-2017, 03:37 PM
I really like Affinity Photo & Designer. It's easier to use and makes more sense to me.

how is it?

kopperdrake
04-26-2017, 04:17 PM
Yep, Jmation made one. You can find details here: http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?147053-LW2Hitfilm-Lightwave-to-Hitfilm-exporter

Thanks Parsons, that made the option easier. I'll have a look at the free version and no doubt upgrade if I like it - ideally I'd like the motion blur of the pro version.

calilifestyle
04-27-2017, 03:36 PM
Just wounding I don't see anything new in animation or dynamics/particles. Am i wrong about that, haven't upgraded since 601. other then Meshfusion now part of modo it feels the same . I know better UVs better substance integration.

oh mean character animation that is.

samurai_x
04-30-2017, 04:54 AM
They added a ton of stuff in 901 and 101.
11 seems really disappointing.
I would grab modo indie 10 while its still on steam.

erikals
04-30-2017, 05:01 AM
Yep, and looks like BlackMagic's DaVinci Resolve is going to replace Adobe Premiere too. Inexpensive perpetual licenses.

quite likely i'll be getting the full version of DaVinci Resolve. $300 :heart:

last weeks experimenting with surround sound, it just makes sense.
+ it plays nicely with the free Fusion.

you can even use VST plugins,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F83c-pJW9T8

erikals
04-30-2017, 05:12 AM
:) I have Propellerheads Reason, but I never use it [I don't like that they don't play nice with DAWs] so instead use FLStudio with all bells, and whistles. Plus a very large collection of VSTs, and other sound libraries.
I have a piano [Yamaha] but I don't use it either, as I don't play very well by hand. I am also too tight for space in the room I use as an office, so I only use DAWs for creating music & sounds.

sorry to 'off topic' a bit here, but propellerhead reason now comes with VST. [cool]
upgrade is $150 i believe.

erikals
04-30-2017, 06:24 AM
Totally OT, but as someone mentioned Hitfilm, is there any way to get LW's camera path into Hitfilm?
I only ask as the Hitfilm/Davinci Resolve looks like a great thing.
I already like Serif's offerings, though I haven't jumped ship from Adobe yet, still assessing the options. It looks like it's getting there though.


Yep, Jmation made one. You can find details here: http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?147053-LW2Hitfilm-Lightwave-to-Hitfilm-exporter

you could also try LW cam to Fusion >
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?138388

my test >


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XC8yf9M6I8

Greenlaw
04-30-2017, 09:39 AM
Yes, FBX is the way to get LightWave cameras into Fusion. We used it all the time at the Box since we were so comp-reliant about everything.

I've never used Resolve--does it support FBX too?

I mostly use After Effects lately and I occasionally use the HitFilm plugins for that. LightWave's 'Send to AE' command lets you use the LightWave camera with HitFilm there.

(I know. I'm starting to meander a bit, topic-wise.) :)

Ok, really OT: I think I tried running the HitFilm plugins in Fusion 6 (I have the OFX plugins,) but Fusion 6 broke when I upgraded to Windows 10. Before that, it seemed like I ran into some other compatibility problems with HitFilm and Fusion. Just wondering, does the current 'pro' version of Fusion run HitFilm plugins? I'd like to upgrade but I'm still weighing that decision since I've gone a couple of years now without using Fusion.

erikals
04-30-2017, 10:05 AM
I've never used Resolve--does it support FBX too?
no, as far as i know there is no way to import or use 3D scenes in DaVinci Resolve
DaVinci Resolve is more for trimming video / color correction / surround sound
i recommend having at least a GeForce 660ti card when editing.


does the current 'pro' version of Fusion run HitFilm plugins?
don't know, it should though, there shouldn't be any OFX plugin limitations.

i'm a bit on hold on Fusion Pro, as it is $1400. (fair price, but too much for me atm)
looking into apps that can convert 2D to 3D film, and Fusion is lagging quite a bit on that area.
so far After Effects +YUVsoft looks to be the best bet. (no Adobe fan though)

Greenlaw
04-30-2017, 10:31 AM
i'm a bit on hold on Fusion Pro, as it is $1400. (fair price, but too much for me atm)
Did the price go up? I thought Fusion was still under $1000 (Fusion 8 Studio). Or is 'Pro' a bundle with some of their other products?

Just checked: B&H and Adorama sell Fusion for around $945 or so.

erikals
04-30-2017, 10:37 AM
i thought so too :)
they cut the Resolve price, amybe they moved it over to Fusion (?)

MichaelT
04-30-2017, 11:33 AM
Unless you absolutely need the optical flow tools (and perhaps plugins) then you can use the free version. It have most of the things the Studio version have... more importantly.. you can use it (and DaVinci) for commercial use as well. Oh, and I still see this price: $995 .. I don't think they have a 'pro' version. Where did you see that?

Greenlaw
04-30-2017, 12:22 PM
Yeah, I'd like to get the Studio version because I have a render farm and some useful OFX plugins for Fusion. (You can't use plugins in the free version.)

The optical flow tools would be super useful to me too. In the past, I relied on certain Re:Vision FX plug-ins for some of that stuff back in Fusion 6.x--although it was kind of a hassle because I had the cheaper After Effects versions of the plugins that only worked in the x32 version of Fusion, and I had to switch back and forth between Fusion versions and render extra passes just to get certain effects. (It could have been easier if I'd gotten the Fusion versions of those plug-ins but they were a lot more expensive than the AE ones for some reason.) Of couse, it will be nice to do all that natively without relying on third party plugins at all.

Man, I wish AE also supported OFX. It would be so much more convenient if every program did. :)

(For me, only Vegas and Fusion does right now, and I can't use my Fusion 6 license any more.)

erikals
04-30-2017, 12:55 PM
Unless you absolutely need the optical flow tools (and perhaps plugins) then you can use the free version. It have most of the things the Studio version have... more importantly.. you can use it (and DaVinci) for commercial use as well.
dangit, i knew i had seen "stereo workflow" for Fusion somewhere... need to look more into that...


Oh, and I still see this price: $995 .. I don't think they have a 'pro' version. Where did you see that?

ah, must be a typo, one page says $1400 another $1000. sent them a mail.
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/sg/products/fusion/compare
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/fusion

erikals
04-30-2017, 01:18 PM
The optical flow tools would be super useful to me too. In the past, I relied on certain Re:Vision FX
if for slowmotion only, you should check out the free version of DaVinci Resolve :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsGy8ByNnys

Greenlaw
04-30-2017, 01:51 PM
That's pretty cool but, yeah, that's the sort of thing I do more in compositing to specific elements.

In Fusion, I used to do this with Twixtor for time warping, and in AE I either use Twixtor or the native TimeWarp with Pixel Motion enabled. But these tools have the same issues with artificating in certain areas though, the problem being that they can only guess at the vectors they can't see (like off frame edges and behind objects) and sometimes they guess incorrectly.

For edges, I usually render with a slight overscan, and that's where LightWave 2015's Overscan option comes into play. It works well for post process blur effects too, like vector base motion blur or regular blur and glow effects that don't have an edge expansion option. It doesn't prevent the artifacts but the overscan lets your crop them out without changing the original composition of the render.

sadkkf
04-30-2017, 01:56 PM
Yep, and looks like BlackMagics Davinci Resolve is going to replace Adobe Premiere too. Inexpensive perpetual licenses.

What do you mean? Please tell me Adobe isn't buying BlackMagic and Davinci is just poised to capture market share.

Greenlaw
04-30-2017, 02:02 PM
Oh, geez...I almost forgot about Krokodove. I can't use Fusion without that. This is an amazing suite of 100 useful plugins for Fusion that I used on every job at R+H. And if the tools weren't already amazing enough, it was free too. (For a while, it was 'Lego-ware'--the dev was actually accepting payment in new Lego kits.)

I see that KKD has been updated for Fusion 8 Studio. Ok, I'm sold. :)


What do you mean? Please tell me Adobe isn't buying BlackMagic and Davinci is just poised to capture market share.

I think he means Da Vinci Resolve is a viable alternative to comparable Creative Cloud programs like Premiere and Speed Grade.

Wow, we've really strayed from the Modo topic, haven't we? :)

erikals
04-30-2017, 02:11 PM
yes, DaVinci Resolve is basically just as good as Twixtor, so it was a clear choice for me, Twixtor starting at $350.

did look into Krokodove some time back, looked neat for sure.
if i use Fusion more extensively i'll probably test-drive it.


Wow, we've really strayed from the Modo topic, haven't we?   :)
hah, oh well, modo can wait   :)

kopperdrake
04-30-2017, 02:16 PM
That's great to hear - I use Twixtor with AE and it was one I'd miss if I moved to DV Resolve.

erikals
04-30-2017, 02:19 PM
yep, pretty neat imo.

bare in mind though that DaVinci Resolve is not a VFX tool, rather a video editing tool.
for the rest of the VFX stuff one will have to use Fusion.
Fusion is free though, so no biggie. the only minus is the "split workflow*".

ahem, where have i heard that* before... ...

sadkkf
04-30-2017, 02:23 PM
I think he means Da Vinci Resolve is a viable alternative to comparable Creative Cloud programs like Premiere and Speed Grade.

Nice. I've been looking for a replacement for Vegas. Nice tool, but a little underwhelming.

erikals
04-30-2017, 02:29 PM
used Vegas some time back. can't see going that route again since i now have DR + Fusion.

Greenlaw
04-30-2017, 02:50 PM
Oh, I love Vegas Pro...it's been my video editor for many, many years. It's very fast and you can throw pretty much anything into it and it just works. (Well, almost anything. Recently I discovered that .mov files are less responsive in Vegas than, say, .avi* or .mp4.)

When Vegas Pro was sold to Magix, I almost considered dropping it for Premiere since I was paying for Cloud anyway. But then I tried Premiere and I ran back to Magix for the upgrade to version 14.

I used to use Premiere (started with version 1.0) but dropped it when my license 'expired', and I was required to get a paid upgrade to continue using it. I think this was shortly after I upgraded from NT to XP, and a dialog popped up one day that literally said my license had expired. The crappy thing is, this was a perpetual license and I was pretty sure it was working in XP for a while before this dialog popped up. That was back in early 2000's. Eventually, I did upgrade to the new version (Premiere Pro, I think) but that turnd out to be less capable than the version that stopped working, which really annoyed me.** My boss at the time suggest Vegas Pro and I've been happy with it ever since.

BTW, I got the HitFilm plug-ins through a Vegas upgrade a few years ago. I'm sure it works well with Vegas but I actually only use the plugins in After Effects. :P

*Ugh...and I just remembered that the BMD version of Fusion dropped .avi export. It's always something isn't it?
**Obviously, I still use Adobe products but I stopped being a fan of the company because of this one stupid incident. I still like their tools but I don't talk about 'em or promote them nearly as much as I do other companies' products that I use every day.

MichaelT
04-30-2017, 03:08 PM
dangit, i knew i had seen "stereo workflow" for Fusion somewhere... need to look more into that...



ah, must be a typo, one page says $1400 another $1000. sent them a mail.
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/sg/products/fusion/compare
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/fusion

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/fusion/compare

Only says $995

you have :url.. "/sg/"products/fusion/compare

What's 'sg' ?

In any case.. that's why you see the higher number. Are you sure it's US $, and not some other country you're seeing?

MichaelT
04-30-2017, 03:13 PM
Oh, I love Vegas Pro...it's been my video editor for many, many years. It's very fast and you can throw pretty much anything into it and it just works. (Well, almost anything. Recently I discovered that .mov files are less responsive in Vegas than, say, .avi* or .mp4.)

When Vegas Pro was sold to Magix, I almost considered dropping it for Premiere since I was paying for Cloud anyway. But then I tried Premiere and I ran back to Magix for the upgrade to version 14.

I used to use Premiere (started with version 1.0) but dropped it when my license 'expired', and I was required to get a paid upgrade to continue using it. I think this was shortly after I upgraded from NT to XP, and a dialog popped up one day that literally said my license had expired. The crappy thing is, this was a perpetual license and I was pretty sure it was working in XP for a while before this dialog popped up. That was back in early 2000's. Eventually, I did upgrade to the new version (Premiere Pro, I think) but that turnd out to be less capable than the version that stopped working, which really annoyed me.** My boss at the time suggest Vegas Pro and I've been happy with it ever since.

BTW, I got the HitFilm plug-ins through a Vegas upgrade a few years ago. I'm sure it works well with Vegas but I actually only use the plugins in After Effects. :P

*Ugh...and I just remembered that the BMD version of Fusion dropped .avi export. It's always something isn't it?
**Obviously, I still use Adobe products but I stopped being a fan of the company because of this one stupid incident. I still like their tools but I don't talk about 'em or promote them nearly as much as I do other companies' products I use every day.

This is why I'm happy we in Sweden have a law that permits you to hack the program, if a company pulls a stunt like that. A permanent license is a license to use the software until the end of time.

erikals
04-30-2017, 03:41 PM
Are you sure it's US $, and not some other country you're seeing?

sorry, but i'll blame gmail this time for shortening the url,
real url is > https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/sg/products/fusion/compare
(scroll to bottom to reveal $1425)

Greenlaw
04-30-2017, 03:47 PM
Oh, that's weird. Hmm....maybe I need to pull the trigger on buying Fusion sooner than later? That's a major price hike.

erikals
04-30-2017, 03:55 PM
Oh, I love Vegas Pro...it's been my video editor for many, many years. It's very fast and you can throw pretty much anything into it and it just works. (Well, almost anything. Recently I discovered that .mov files are less responsive in Vegas than, say, .avi* or .mp4.)

the reason why i don't like Vegas, is because of it's limitations. it just can't compete with something like Fusion.
then again Fusion can't smack/cut videos like Vegas can.

you might also wanna look into HitFilm. it has it's /cons though.


*Ugh...and I just remembered that the BMD version of Fusion dropped .avi export. It's always something isn't it?
too true  :)

MichaelT
04-30-2017, 04:02 PM
sorry, but i'll blame gmail this time for shortening the url,
real url is > https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/sg/products/fusion/compare
(scroll to bottom to reveal $1425)

No, what I mean is this: If you go to https://www.blackmagicdesign.com

then click on "products", follwed by clicking on "DaVinci Resolve
& Fusion Software" the $995 is right there.

I can't understand how you even got to the page you linked to?

erikals
04-30-2017, 04:09 PM
just found out, seems somehow i was taken to the /sg/
/sg/ is "software group" and is the price for a BlackMagic Cinema Camera + Fusion
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/sg/products

ok, case closed.
Fusion is still $995

i probably googled 'Fusion + compare' some time back and was taken to /sg/
agh. :)

jperk
04-30-2017, 04:27 PM
I have the free versions BlackMagic provides, but users can't use plugins or scripting. That's only available in payed versions.

MichaelT
04-30-2017, 04:39 PM
The only downside is that you have to run through hoops to buy a license. One would think a company of their size would be able to sell their product online.. but noooo. It's just like Maxon and Cincema 4D.. so very annoying. It is things like that, which makes me just walk away. I can't be bothered with planned obstinance like that.

erikals
04-30-2017, 05:41 PM
yep,
however, saw it on Amazon also. think i'd order from there.

Greenlaw
04-30-2017, 05:49 PM
Oh, good! For a long time, I saw it available through only a few dealers here in the states, the biggest being the two I mentioned. The price on Amazon is about the same as these dealers too. (Sigh! I've been saving up for a new computer but I guess that will have to wait a bit longer.)

erikals
04-30-2017, 05:55 PM
...and there is also ebay, if one have the guts... :)

calilifestyle
05-01-2017, 12:02 AM
The only downside is that you have to run through hoops to buy a license. One would think a company of their size would be able to sell their product online.. but noooo. It's just like Maxon and Cincema 4D.. so very annoying. It is things like that, which makes me just walk away. I can't be bothered with planned obstinance like that.

omg yes i just want to buy download and have the full version . Instead i had to go to one of the 3rd part vendors and wait or a box to ship to me.

Asticles
05-01-2017, 02:44 PM
Now Thea render has dropped 3dmax plugin o_O
I'm so tired about this...

Maybe rental is the only way, to change to another software when itself becames creepy. Not trusting anything and adapting to the market's present at each moment (talking about freelancers).

erikals
05-01-2017, 03:03 PM
that instability proves the opposite, that clinging on to subscription with plugins is a big Minus.

and yep, i'm a freelancer, or used to be at least.

MichaelT
05-01-2017, 05:29 PM
I wonder if subscriptions will really be that successful in the very near future. Blender had 7 million downloads last year, a number that keeps on growing. Many of those people will move into workplaces, bringing Blender with them. I think it is an attrition Autodesk have no hope of defeating.

erikals
05-01-2017, 05:49 PM
here are my LightWave plugins >


3rd Powers - Cage Deformer
3rd Powers - LW Brush
3rd Powers - MetaMesh
Advanced Placement
anything goos
Bevel++ 4.2
Dynamite Pro
HD instance
infiniMapExr
Maestro
OD Toolset
OGO license
Polas Random cloner 1.6
Polas Tree
Polygon Islands
Pp_Clone PICTRIX
Rhiggit 2
Sasquatch 1.6
Syflex 13
Trueart EasyRetopology
Trueart SwiftEdgeLoop
Turbulence
Up
VehicleRigger

now, say i have program "X" instead of LightWave,
once i'd jump off subscription, those plugins will cease to work.
great. [not.]

Asticles
05-02-2017, 12:43 AM
Sorry erikals, I think you misunderstood me. I'm against rental or subscriptions. But let's imagine your favourite software, the one you have learned along years and invested lot of money and time on it, gets discontinued. You know that the market will continue growing in features and in 2-3 years you will be left behind. I'm talking about this scenario. What is the role of subscriptions or rental on this? What if the plugins could be interchanged between apps also?

The problem is that is happening every day (not literally). Look at the bunch of great packages that have been left behind.

Only thoughts.

Tartiflette
05-02-2017, 02:35 AM
just found out, seems somehow i was taken to the /sg/
/sg/ is "software group" and is the price for a BlackMagic Cinema Camera + Fusion
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/sg/products

ok, case closed.
Fusion is still $995

i probably googled 'Fusion + compare' some time back and was taken to /sg/
agh. :)
Nope, "SG" means Singapore, you were on the Singapore specific prices webpage with Singapore dollars prices.
You would have seen this if you were to find a reseller you would have had the Singpore authorized resellers. :D

erikals
05-02-2017, 04:15 AM
Sorry erikals, I think you misunderstood me. I'm against rental or subscriptions.
oh, no, my comment was a general comment, not a reply. :)


Nope, "SG" means Singapore, you were on the Singapore specific prices webpage with Singapore dollars prices.
dang! had no clue. :)
thank you for answering that one :)

Asticles
05-05-2017, 05:22 AM
OMG! Now you cannot run your perpetual license if not connected after 37 days? TF -> AUTODESK

https://community.foundry.com/discuss/post/1080903

erikals
05-05-2017, 06:32 AM
  
was afraid it was heading in that direction...

sucks to be a modo user i guess (if you hate being tied to the net that is)

Asticles
05-05-2017, 07:07 AM
The problem is that they have cheated. They actively said the opposite.

Tartiflette
05-05-2017, 08:38 AM
OMG! Now you cannot run your perpetual license if not connected after 37 days? TF -> AUTODESK

https://community.foundry.com/discuss/post/1080903
It's being clearly stated that it's a bug, not a feature...

It's a BAD thing, that's for sure, but they're working on it to ensure "perpetual" (whatever it means, nothing being perpetual, sotware even less than anything else...) license owners will be able to work regardless of Internet connection.

TheLexx
05-05-2017, 08:40 AM
Is it right that these online checking changes are only from Modo 11 and onwards, but anything Modo 10 and before is all standalone ?

Asticles
05-05-2017, 09:14 AM
Is it right that these online checking changes are only from Modo 11 and onwards, but anything Modo 10 and before is all standalone ?

They have realeased an update for modo 10 to enable the new licensing.

MichaelT
05-05-2017, 09:41 AM
As if that new licensing actually is "better", yeah.. I'll be "absolutely" applying that "enticing" patch to modo 10. Rammstein - Bück dich comes to mind :)

Asticles
05-05-2017, 09:45 AM
I would recommend to donload all your modo software and all license files to store them. Just in case.

erikals
05-05-2017, 09:46 AM
it's really sad to see this happening.

MichaelT
05-05-2017, 09:49 AM
It's being clearly stated that it's a bug, not a feature...

It's a BAD thing, that's for sure, but they're working on it to ensure "perpetual" (whatever it means, nothing being perpetual, sotware even less than anything else...) license owners will be able to work regardless of Internet connection.

Yeah, I'll believe that when I see it. The only way they'll convince me of that is if I have an actual license that I can use when internet is locked down for whatever reason. Even if installed on a new computer.
They messed this one up big time... but people are not complaining about it to such a degree that they even care. So nothing will change. They just think you're a potential criminal.. this is what it is really about.
Oh and btw.. it is already cracked. I checked. So much good that did.

MichaelT
05-05-2017, 09:52 AM
I would recommend to donload all your modo software and all license files to store them. Just in case.

Oh I did that when I first got the license. I learned from another company that pulled a similar stunt some two years ago. :)
I can't help wondering if this isn't really the reason Brad left.

Asticles
05-05-2017, 09:58 AM
They have very active lawyers. I've read some threads about that.

The big advantage that has Autodesk, is that they don't prosecute piracy of individuals, so their software is widely spread from the beginning. This is why people like me, that buy everything, cannot compete fairly with other freelances that have Marvelous+Zbrush+Houdini+3Dcoat+Max+Vray and more.

Not to mention Catia, Solidworks and such.

MichaelT
05-05-2017, 10:03 AM
They have very active lawyers. I've read some threads about that.

edit: changed because I misunderstood the comment.

My point is that they changed to this model in order to take away your rights, and gain control over the software. because they felt piracy is too much. And my point is also that it is a wrong belief to think that those pirates would *ever* pay. They won't!
We're talking about people who crack programs that doesn't cost more than a Big mac.

And the only ones being hurt here are the legal users like us. The pirates will do what they've always done.. use it any way they want.

Asticles
05-05-2017, 10:16 AM
I bought Modo 10 thinking I was buying an all-in-one tool that can make me work without always worrying about external software. Also because I don't want to invest in AD products.


:screwy:

I think I'm one of those people that enterprises search to know where don't make investment.

I bought Thea some time ago :screwy:
I liked Delorean, Betamax, Gamecube...

MichaelT
05-05-2017, 10:23 AM
I got C4D (finally) because I wanted something that could replace 3dsmax + thinking particles. And C4D filled many of those checkboxes. Because I have had enough of company after company turning to subs only. As if my wallet is a never ending well of riches. Soon Houdini will be the only sub left that I have, and probably will stay that way. Because I don't think $200 is anything to fuzz about. And C4D license is permanent, just like the LW license. Just the way I like it.

TheLexx
05-05-2017, 10:33 AM
They have realeased an update for modo 10 to enable the new licensing.Yes, here (https://www.foundry.com/products/modo/download/)is the download page. With seemingly 4 different versions of Modo 10, I think the offending version is Modo10.2v3. It seems that anyone who has a permanent licence for the earlier versions is safe from any online jiggery-pokery, but of course will never advance beyond that version if they want to completely opt out of the new system. If this is a make or break pivotal point for users, then I guess it's looking good for LW Next.

Marander
05-05-2017, 10:37 AM
I got C4D (finally) because I wanted something that could replace 3dsmax + thinking particles. And C4D filled many of those checkboxes. Because I have had enough of company after company turning to subs only. As if my wallet is a never ending well of riches. Soon Houdini will be the only sub left that I have, and probably will stay that way. Because I don't think $200 is anything to fuzz about. And C4D license is permanent, just like the LW license. Just the way I like it.

Hey congrats, good move! You will not regret it.

Now comes the temptation for all the awesome plugins that are available... and an endless amount of tutorials.

Don't hesitate to PM me if you have questions.

Cheers

erikals
05-05-2017, 10:49 AM
this reminds me i need to fire up Houdini again...

Wickedpup
05-05-2017, 10:54 AM
They have realeased an update for modo 10 to enable the new licensing.

The sign-in licensing is only for Modo 11 users who also want to install 10.2v3 alongside 11, using the same sign-in licensing method/system. After all, it only contains the licensing change and one or two bug fixes.........

hrgiger
05-05-2017, 11:21 AM
My point is that they changed to this model in order to take away your rights, and gain control over the software.


What rights are they taking away?

Personally I'm only peeved because they can't seem to get on the same page between what support is telling us and what Shane or Derek are telling us on the forums.

Either way Modo 11 through maintenance is a perpetual license so I don't see the big ordeal here. And I'm very much in favor of software maintenance because it benefits both users and developers alike. Subscription as an option is never a bad thing and there are those who prefer it.

erikals
05-05-2017, 11:26 AM
Subscription as an option
let's see how long it sticks...

1 -no Subscription
2 -Subscription option
3 -Subscription

i'm willing to make a $ bet...

hrgiger
05-05-2017, 11:37 AM
i'm willing to make a $ bet...

Keep your money. I'll take my software updates every 4 months.

MichaelT
05-05-2017, 11:41 AM
The big ordeal here is this. Let's say I buy a new computer, n- time from now. After having installed the other things I want to install modo 11 (or whatever later version) now.. previously I could just use the license key file and be on my merry way. With this version of handling the license I must connect to their server to be allowed to use my perpetual product. Now, let's say internet is down, let's say there is a war, let's say the government enacted a law prohibiting me from using their system .. whatever.. the point here is this.. I can't connect. Maybe for a while, maybe forever.. regardless I now find myself in a situation where I can't use the product where I previously could. And for what? Because they feel that I am a criminal, I need to be watched. So yes.. my rights are taken away. But OK, granted this is a "doomsday" scenario.. and I am pushing it.. I know that. But it is still a valid point, that I was previously trusted to handle my license myself. Now I am not, because they no longer trust the customer. I see a problem here,, this is not an improvement. This is worse. And sure I am upset about it, will I stop using modo? No. But trust goes both ways.. and by mistrusting me.. I must mistrust them.

erikals
05-05-2017, 11:49 AM
Keep your money. I'll take my software updates every 4 months.
Keep your micro updates and Subscription.

MichaelT
05-05-2017, 11:53 AM
Incidentally.. Allegoritmic also went maintenance today. But with a key difference.. You still use license like before, no change there. What is changed is that you will only get updates for a year. After which you buy for another year of updates. No more versions of the software.
Now this is something theFoundry should/could have done instead. This I have no problems with.

Asticles
05-05-2017, 11:55 AM
The big ordeal here is this. Let's say I buy a new computer, n- time from now. After having installed the other things I want to install modo 11 (or whatever later version) now.. previously I could just use the license key file and be on my merry way. With this version of handling the license I must connect to their server to be allowed to use my perpetual product. Now, let's say internet is down, let's say there is a war, let's say the government enacted a law prohibiting me from using their system .. whatever.. the point here is this.. I can't connect. Maybe for a while, maybe forever.. regardless I now find myself in a situation where I can't use the product where I previously could. And for what? Because they feel that I am a criminal, I need to be watched. So yes.. my rights are taken away. But OK, granted this is a "doomsday" scenario.. and I am pushing it.. I know that. But it is still a valid point, that I was previously trusted to handle my license myself. Now I am not, because they no longer trust the customer. I see a problem here,, this is not an improvement. This is worse. And sure I am upset about it, will I stop using modo? No. But trust goes both ways.. and by mistrusting me.. I must mistrust them.
+10

Asticles
05-05-2017, 11:59 AM
Everything wouldn't be that bad if they made real and incredible improvements, not only bugfixes and a bit of meshfusion. Some time ago, a version change meant something.

I've read the post about performance improvements and they are very specific.

erikals
05-05-2017, 12:03 PM
this is why more big companies cling on to Subscription, they are either too lazy to create something revolutionary or have no tricks left up their sleeve.
so what to do to tie the customers to a holy application?... > Subscription.


Unsubscribe and loose >
the App
the plugins
the Usable Source files

oh my, how we Love Subscription, it's So much better than Perpetual, it gives SO many more opportunities that Perpetual could never give you...
let me list them for you...
-
-
-

hrgiger
05-05-2017, 12:09 PM
I guess I don't worry about what might happen a year from now or two years from now, I'll make my decisions then. And worrying about doomsday scenarios is fairly high on the silly list, at least you recognize that to a degree. And not only because it is unlikely but also because I doubt anyone is going to be worrying in their doomsday bunker that their 3D software won't work. And in all honesty, I'm more worried about LW's future then I am the Foundry's which is why I would never rely on a single software to address my needs and certainly as a modeler, not LightWave alone.

As I said, I'm very much in favor of a maintenance type licensing as I feel its a good middle ground between user and developer. They give a discount for people to upgrade their software every year and in return, the company gets more steady revenue to further develop the application that users depend on. With maintenance however, I can drop out anytime if I don't feel they are making good enough improvements to warrant the cost of maintenance and in return, the company has to make significant enough improvements so that people will want to continue their maintenance. I'd honestly be surprised if Foundry went full subscription because they are not in the same position Autodesk is so I feel it would not benefit them because if people are going to be forced into subscription, they're likely to opt for something like Max or Maya over Modo, at least at this point in time.

As far as the trust thing goes, I guess I don't worry about that either. I have no concern over whether a company trusts me or not, I just want a simple licensing scheme that doesn't get in my way. I have signed in once since I started using 11 and other than that, its no different than what I was on before. I've yet to have a computer that I used that wasn't connected daily to the internet and I've yet to experience a internet outage for more than a day or two at worst.

And as I stated previously, LW3DG indicated that they would be charging people more money to upgrade from previous versions of LW and so that is effectively what maintenance is from the financial side, its no different. And even penalizes users more than the Foundry does.

in other news, Allegorithmic (substance) has switched their business model to also a maintenance type plan. https://www.allegorithmic.com/welcome-to-substance?utm_source=Substance+Painter+2+Indie&utm_campaign=85bb128b96-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_05_04&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_7101b74769-85bb128b96-331744825

- - - Updated - - -




Keep your micro updates and Subscription.

Neither of which is the case.

Modo 10 was a significant update and I expect 11 to be as well. And I'm on maintenance, not subscription.

- - - Updated - - -


Incidentally.. Allegoritmic also went maintenance today. But with a key difference.. You still use license like before, no change there. What is changed is that you will only get updates for a year. After which you buy for another year of updates. No more versions of the software.
Now this is something theFoundry should/could have done instead. This I have no problems with.


Which is exactly what the Foundry has done. Maintenance is updates for a year regardless of version.

MichaelT
05-05-2017, 12:12 PM
No, not exactly, like I pointed out. theFoundry stripped you of the control over your own license. Allegorithmic doesn't.

erikals
05-05-2017, 12:19 PM
And worrying about doomsday scenarios is fairly high on the silly list, at least you recognize that to a degree.
Subscription Only is, and always will be, Either you are With us or Out of the Loop scenario. No Subscription = No App.


And as I stated previously, LW3DG indicated that they would be charging people more money to upgrade from previous versions of LW and so that is effectively what maintenance is from the financial side, its no different.
Seriously? i don't see why i should discuss this further if you seriously think that.

Asticles
05-05-2017, 12:32 PM
I think you two have very opposite opinions, none of you will convince the other. Of course, this is a matter of choice.
Affinity people does not have subs and they're growing a lot, eating Adobe's market.

erikals
05-05-2017, 12:36 PM
I think you two have very opposite opinions, none of you will convince the other.
Ditto that. :)

Luckily i have been in the military, and thereby will win any argument.
...unless Giger is a politician.... can't beat that.

hrgiger
05-05-2017, 12:36 PM
Seriously? i don't see why i should discuss this further if you seriously think that.

I've already linked this once to you before erikals, don't know why you doubt me. http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?148219-New-pricing-model

people upgrading from a non-current version $795. That's $300 more than what a non-core member. But $295 for those on a current version.

Modo is $399 for people on maintenance (which is perpetual license, just the same as LW) but people upgrading from non-current version would have to pay $599 (still $200 cheaper than LW's).

TheLexx
05-05-2017, 12:37 PM
I guess I don't worry about what might happen a year from now or two years from now, I'll make my decisions then.........in other news, Allegorithmic (substance) has switched their business model to also a maintenance type plan.It's probably an idea to try and visualise a year from now or two years from now, to the best of ability, so all your hard work buying and learning stuff is protected as best as possible, rather than when you are suddenly faced with a situation.

Also, from what I can see, Allegorithmic is at least giving some advance warning of a change commencing in June, but Modo was like, bang - you're in right now, like it or not. At the end of the day, it's up to them, but I think it is natural to want to buy-to-own outright as a trusted customer. Sure, some plugins, renderers, add-ons, etc are going to be subscription or tied to a particular machine, but I think having a core unfettered offline application to own makes a difference for many of us. I know Blender is going to pop up as the alternative, but more choices are nice. But not everyone has the same circumstances, I get that.

hrgiger
05-05-2017, 12:38 PM
No, not exactly, like I pointed out. theFoundry stripped you of the control over your own license. Allegorithmic doesn't.

Yes, the Foundry has stripped me of control of my license if I'm in a internet free bunker after a nuclear war.

- - - Updated - - -


It's probably an idea to try and visualise a year from now or two years from now, to the best of ability, so all your hard work buying and learning stuff is protected as best as possible, rather than when you are suddenly faced with a situation.

.

Which won't be like I have to make a split decision, I'll still be on the most current perpetual version and can make decisions from there. I also do not rely solely on any single piece of software.

erikals
05-05-2017, 12:42 PM
I've already linked this once to you before erikals, don't know why you doubt me. http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?148219-New-pricing-model

people upgrading from a non-current version $795. That's $300 more than what a non-core member. But $295 for those on a current version.

Modo is $399 for people on maintenance (which is perpetual license, just the same as LW) but people upgrading from non-current version would have to pay $599 (still $200 cheaper than LW's).

that's hardly the argument.

the argument i'm making is the App being hooked to the Net and Subscription versus Not.


Yes, the Foundry has stripped me of control of my license if I'm in a internet free bunker after a nuclear war.
...you talked about silly 5 posts back. That argument is likewise, silly.


It'll also be fun to see for how long Subscription is going to stick to its current price.
according to Marketing, and its rules, Not very long. It's a bait, and some people tend to take it.

hrgiger
05-05-2017, 12:50 PM
that's hardly the argument.

the argument is i'm making is the App being hooked to the Net and Subscription versus Not.


...you talked about silly 5 posts back. That argument is likewise, silly.

Erik, why do you keep mentioning subscription? I'm not on subscription, I'm on maintenance, do you understand the difference?

erikals
05-05-2017, 12:57 PM
oh, cool, i guess we agree then.

MichaelT
05-05-2017, 01:00 PM
Yes, the Foundry has stripped me of control of my license if I'm in a internet free bunker after a nuclear war.

- - - Updated - - -



Which won't be like I have to make a split decision, I'll still be on the most current perpetual version and can make decisions from there. I also do not rely solely on any single piece of software.

Now now, that is not what I said. I said no connection, I even emphasized it. Regardless of reason.

MichaelT
05-05-2017, 01:03 PM
Besides.. the amount for upgrades isn't really the point either.

bazsa73
05-05-2017, 01:04 PM
The subscription bike has been overpushed. There should be a middle road.

hrgiger
05-05-2017, 01:40 PM
The subscription bike has been overpushed. There should be a middle road.

There is, and that is maintenance which is what I've been stating.

But as people can see, that's the way things are headed in general and it likely won't change. I mean, I gave up Adobe and got on with Affinity as well but I don't have any illusions that Affinity is going to ultimately change the way Adobe does business or even hurt their business in the long run. Companies like Adobe and Autodesk are like big rivers like the Mississippi and companies like affinity are essentially lobbing pebbles into it hoping to change its trajectory. At some point you have to be realistic.

erikals
05-05-2017, 01:50 PM
At some point you have to be realistic.
Could be, but i'll fight that system for as long as i can.

http://www.mapdata.com.br/imagens/softimage-2015-badge-128px.png

MichaelT
05-05-2017, 02:19 PM
Softimage :oye:

Marander
05-05-2017, 04:38 PM
No, not exactly, like I pointed out. theFoundry stripped you of the control over your own license. Allegorithmic doesn't.

Exactly. This online activation thing is a no-go for me. I switch hardware a lot and want to have the flexibility to use where and when I want my software. My rendering machines are not online. I have this already with Vue where I have to beg the support to reset my activation count when I change hardware and cannot use it on any machine I want.

I don't think Foundry and others are doing this because of piracy, they want to have control over their paying customers. Look at AD, they announced increasing prices for perpetual maintenance for the coming years (cumulative 5% in 2017, 10% in 2018, and 20% in 2019, so by then you will pay 35% more) and try to force customers to subscription-only (and remove your perpetual license). Some day they might just disable the activation for old products.

From my point of view Foundry is trying to do exactly the same.

Some license terms don't allow more than two activations per year, activation within 48 hours, limited amount of hardware changes, online every 30 days etc.

For users in some countries the US export regulations or whatnot can change and prohibit them from using / activating the software in future (ok Foundry is UK based but this can change of course).

With the online activation they can force you to install patches you don't want, products might only be activated with the newest patch (which might not work for you or you're in the middle of a project etc.).

Tartiflette
05-05-2017, 05:40 PM
Funny how people seem to always want to see the bad aspect of everything !

Not saying that subscription or the way the industry is heading those last years is what i prefer, quite the contrary actually, but you all seem to prefer when there is NO update at all for so much time, NO money (or so much less than what would be needed...) so that the devs have to do wonders to (try to) keep up with the pace other companies are sustaining, etc, etc... :stumped:

erikals
05-05-2017, 05:48 PM
the trend is negative, but sure, it can be nice, as an option.

happy to see Maya being available for 1month rent for example. could very well be useful.

TheLexx
05-05-2017, 06:09 PM
FWIW I noticed by chance that Blacksmith3D (https://www.blacksmith3d.com/)has introduced monthly subscription, with a Version 7 Beta download, but it is only an option, with permanent licences still available. I occasionally chance upon their website, but can't seem to find any users - did anyone here ever use Blacksmith in the workflow, and how did you find it ?

Marander
05-05-2017, 06:19 PM
the trend is negative, but sure, it can be nice, as an option.

happy to see Maya being available for 1month rent for example. could very well be useful.

Yes, subscription as an option is positive as long as it remains an option.

OK to be positive: Companies / products that do licensing really well (in my opinion)

NewTek LightWave of course
Maxon C4D
Pilgrim 3D Coat
Allegorithmic Substance
PhotoLine
Blackmagic Design DaVinci Resolve / Fusion
Affinity Designer / Photo
Corel Paintshop Pro / Ultimate / Video Studio
Worldmachine
DAZ Studio Pro (free)
Audacity (free)
Blender (free)
Makehuman (free)
Krita (free)
Natron (free)

erikals
05-05-2017, 06:34 PM
MindTex / ShaderMap / Knald
TAFA
Flora3D / Onyx Tree / X-frog
DaVinci Resolve
Fusion
SynthEyes
Video Enhancer
PD Howler
Reason / Studio One / Reaper

many many more...

jwiede
05-05-2017, 08:27 PM
that's hardly the argument.

the argument i'm making is the App being hooked to the Net and Subscription versus Not.

You do understand there are very significant differences between "maintenance" and "subscription", right? You can keep referring to "maintenance" as "subscription" if you want, but it isn't the same in MODO's case.

hrgiger
05-05-2017, 08:29 PM
Funny how people seem to always want to see the bad aspect of everything !

Not saying that subscription or the way the industry is heading those last years is what i prefer, quite the contrary actually, but you all seem to prefer when there is NO update at all for so much time, NO money (or so much less than what would be needed...) so that the devs have to do wonders to (try to) keep up with the pace other companies are sustaining, etc, etc... :stumped:

yes, exactly. Sure, LW licensing is nice and you can upgrade when you want to a new perpetual license (but I've already pointed out, if they're keeping the price structure they indicated before, they're penalizing people who don't upgrade each time just like a maintenance license does (and quite heavily too). But on the same token, the last LW release was 2 1/2 years ago and was quite minor (since erik tried to suggest Modo updates are "micro updates"- does he think LW 2015 was a massive update in comparison?)

I have no problem with people not wanting a subscription based service. But I do take issue with expecting every software company to keep a perpetual license and giving users the option to upgrade when they want without penalty. Sure, that's great for users but its bad for the developers as it gives buyers little to no incentive to upgrade each update. Which puts developers in a situation where they can't depend on a consistent revenue stream and development suffers as a cost. Part of the only reason LW will never have a subscription plan is because they dont' update the product often enough to warrant it.

samurai_x
05-06-2017, 01:47 AM
https://community.foundry.com/discuss/topic/131387/selling-modo-new-license-transfer-guidelines

"The Buyer will be required to purchase additional maintenance for a minimum of 1yr."

So cost of used modo license(ex. 300usd) + 100usd transfer fee + you need to pay additional maintenance(599usd) for a minimum of 1 year. 1000usd for a used modo license.
That's too greedy if that's how it works now.

MichaelT
05-06-2017, 01:51 AM
Personally I think a company *should* have a running cost for updates. This is why I think what Allegorithmic did is a very good thing. I hope every company does that (what they did) it is better for everyone if a company have a stable income. My *only* issue is that I want control over my license.

erikals
05-06-2017, 04:00 AM
You do understand there are very significant differences between "maintenance" and "subscription", right?
You can keep referring to "maintenance" as "subscription" if you want, but it isn't the same in MODO's case.

yes i do, i take that on my shoulders, i read the sentence too fast, i thought we talked about Subscription. my mistake.

i do stick to what i said about Subscription though.


Personally I think a company *should* have a running cost for updates.
Modo versions have been "Modo Bug City" at times, so no, they shouldn't. (at least not for bug fixes)

TheLexx
05-06-2017, 04:16 AM
I have no problem with people not wanting a subscription based service. But I do take issue with expecting every software company to keep a perpetual license and giving users the option to upgrade when they want without penalty.
Personally I think a company *should* have a running cost for updates. This is why I think what Allegorithmic did is a very good thing. I hope every company does that (what they did) it is better for everyone if a company have a stable income. My *only* issue is that I want control over my license.Took me a while, but I'm beginning to get it now (doh) - this isn't just about piracy. So buying a permanent offline licence on the principle of user independence isn't really the end of the story - it's also about the cost of remaining independent or offline if you want the company to stay in business !

Someone mentioned Modo 11 is already hacked, so pirates will pirate anyway, which means Allegorithmic have been very smart compared to Foundry (if I haven't misunderstood their model). The above quotes settle it in my mind.

BTW, those lists a few posts back are quite interesting, feel free to expand them !

The only difference between the great 4D and LW licencing models that I can see is that 4D seems to come out at a regular time each year, so users have a certain expectation, but LW isn't tied to this......which means an "Is Lightwave Dead ?" thread is going to pop up between every single release after a just a few months, which has a certain humorous quality in some ways. For me personally, I could buy the newly announced RebelHill face rig and just sign off for years in terms of what I need or want, but I will buy LW Next anyway which is based on licencing and company loyalty as well as the software itself.

Hip
05-06-2017, 04:23 AM
Good day to all! Faced the need, for my individual projects, to use a full-featured software with good polimodelling, animation and built-in visualization. From the financial point of view, as well as the functional and internal structure, the Lightwave fully meets my requirements and preferences. On the second place is Modo. But their policy of licensing, development trends in recent years, as well as the interface, I do not like. All that stops me before I start using the commercial version of Lightwave, that is, buying a license, is the uncertainty of the development and overall existence of the Lightwave as a modern product. Dear developers or knowledgeable users, I will be very grateful if you clarify the situation with the release of the new version of Lightwave. After all, you can not build your workflow, any plans for the future without having specific information about the timing of the release and the overall development of the product. You could report at least the deadlines for the release of the new version in order to impart certainty to my decisions on the choice of the working environment, since I do not want to purchase a product (in particular Modo) that does not meet my wishes and sympathies. I place great hopes on the Lightwave as my main working environment. Thank you for your attention and sorry for my english.

TheLexx
05-06-2017, 04:32 AM
@ Hip, things happen (and have) which affects the outcome so there is no exact answer for you, so look carefully at what Lightwave can do for you right now and roll with that.

MichaelT
05-06-2017, 06:01 AM
@Hip, no need for excuses :) We're all international here.

In any case, LW Next is very close.. judging by comments from LWG themselves. But in the end, who knows?

gerry_g
05-06-2017, 06:24 AM
In any case, LW Next is very close.. judging by comments from LWG themselves. But in the end, who knows?

can't wait to get my subscription then

TheLexx
05-06-2017, 06:46 AM
@ Hip and MichaelT, I also suspect that LW Next is very close to completion, but maybe consider this. If LW Next was already completed, for example, last Friday, I doubt it would simply be released glibly on the following Monday. Possibly they would wait for the next appropriate event to announce. Given the huge amount of speculative comments and Lino's prediction, that takes us to Siggraph 2017 around July. Human nature being what it is, the "Lightwave tripped on a banana skin" threads are absolutely packed, yet the Siggraph 2017 thread is empty of a single comment at this time !

MichaelT
05-06-2017, 07:10 AM
Could be that they release it then, but I won't guess either way.

@gerry_g: :) but I'm not against subs... just saying.

hrgiger
05-06-2017, 07:28 AM
i thought lw was close to releases a year ago when lino said they were busy preparing marketing and other things for a release. now a year later we still have no idea. they will finally release lw next and then maybe just wait another 2 to 3 years for some actual modeling improvements. and no an array tool or lattice arent substantial modeling improvements.

Meanwhile Modo 11.1 will be in beta early next month with a release a month or two later.

jasonwestmas
05-06-2017, 08:49 AM
If I needed a really awesome hard surface modeling and rendering package for pre-viz or concept art (I don't, but if I did) I'd be using modo 11 yesterday. I wouldn't be waiting around.

I mostly say this because the future of LWmodeler and lightwave in general is so unclear.

hrgiger
05-06-2017, 10:31 AM
yeah Jason and thats why im on Modo 11. Mesh Fusion is great and modeling has consistently gotten better since Modo 101. i cant wait around for lw3dg to address modeler and while LWCAD makes up for some of it, it cant make up fully for modelers neglect.

TheLexx
05-06-2017, 10:45 AM
You guys are obviously skilled with the softwares well to make these comparisons, but for me it is like chicken and egg, where one doesn't know what one doesn't know, but paradoxically one must know in order to decide what one needs to know. Could someone please just drop a quick hint as to how or why Modo picks up from a LW/LWCAD combo ?

hrgiger
05-06-2017, 11:18 AM
sorry if im not clear on what youre asking, are you asking how Modo is improved over just having lw + lwcad?

Just a few things:

Pixar subDs
Mesh Fusion
Interactive falloffs
Procedural modeling toolset
UV mapping
vertex normal toolkit\smoothing groups
workplane (lwcad has ucs but not as intuitive)
more action centers\local action center
unified interface/sculpting/rendering/deformers available while modeling
retopology
constrain to backgeound
edge/point slide
bridging with curve/spline mode
fill gaps with auto connection
renderable curves
item mode
tool handles allow you to work in a single view
Advanced viewport has environment lighting for preview of pbr materials on game models
control of visibility of background/foreground layers
proper edge support
rounded edge shader. can be baked to low rez game models.
export presets for Unreal and Unity

And theres more but those are some of the thing i use daily that are essential.

hrgiger
05-06-2017, 12:19 PM
By the way MichaelT-

I asked support about login based licensing. Basically this is their answer to allowing you to use your license on any machine you want to for flexibility. However, you have the option of changing your login based licensing to a permanent RLM license which would not require you to login every 30 days and all the same rules apply as far as maintenance and updates go. The RLM license is tied to one machine, but you can fill out a form if you wish to transfer it to a different machine. You can find a answer about that here: https://support.foundry.com/hc/en-us/articles/205763252-Q100001-Can-I-transfer-my-license-to-another-machine-
And finally you have another option which is a floating permanent RLM license which uses a specific machine as a host that will float the license to another device on the network.

So you have an option of not having a login license which requires you to login every 30 days. If you want to change to a permanent RLM or permanent RLM floating, contact them and have them change it.

Snosrap
05-06-2017, 12:23 PM
You guys are obviously skilled with the softwares well to make these comparisons, but for me it is like chicken and egg, where one doesn't know what one doesn't know, but paradoxically one must know in order to decide what one needs to know. Could someone please just drop a quick hint as to how or why Modo picks up from a LW/LWCAD combo ?


sorry if im not clear on what youre asking, are you asking how Modo is improved over just having lw + lwcad?

Just a few things:

Pixar subDs
Mesh Fusion
Interactive falloffs
Procedural modeling toolset
UV mapping
vertex normal toolkit\smoothing groups
workplane (lwcad has ucs but not as intuitive)
more action centers\local action center
unified interface/sculpting/rendering/deformers available while modeling
retopology
constrain to backgeound
edge/point slide
bridging with curve/spline mode
fill gaps with auto connection
renderable curves
item mode
tool handles allow you to work in a single view
Advanced viewport has environment lighting for preview of pbr materials on game models
control of visibility of background/foreground layers
proper edge support
rounded edge shader. can be baked to low rez game models.
export presets for Unreal and Unity

And theres more but those are some of the thing i use daily that are essential.

Modo for sure gets a lot modeling things right - but then why when I have both applications do I use Modeler for 95% of my modeling needs? It's so obvious to me that Modo is more modern and has really great tools. So I really can't put a finger on it as to why I use Modeler - oh wait I think I know - its more immediate. (For me, your mileage may vary.:)) And yes I do have LWCad which does solve many of Modelers shortcomings. In all honesty when looking at modeling only - the two are very similar with Modo being what Modeler would have been had there not been the split between the two "mommies". (Google Brad Peebler and two mommies.)

Asticles
05-06-2017, 12:28 PM
Modo for sure gets a lot modeling things right - but then why when I have both applications do I use Modeler for 95% of my modeling needs? It's so obvious to me that Modo is more modern and has really great tools. So I really can't put a finger on it as to why I use Modeler - oh wait I think I know - its more immediate. (For me, your mileage may vary.:)) And yes I do have LWCad which does solve many of Modelers shortcomings. In all honesty when looking at modeling only - the two are very similar with Modo being what Modeler would have been had there not been the split between the two "mommies". (Google Brad Peebler and two mommies.)

Me too, also I like vpr more that modo's. I have always to hurry with the projects and Lw+lwcad have sped up my workflow a lot. I cannot model what I need faster with Blender or Modo. Specially when rotating with snaps or modeling walls.

Creating with boolean option is incredible.

erikals
05-06-2017, 12:48 PM
i would expect Modo also has a much better Rounder?
yes/no?

hrgiger
05-06-2017, 01:03 PM
i would expect Modo also has a much better Rounder?
yes/no?

Well no rounding solution I've found is perfect, they all break in certain situations. But Modo's which is just the bevel tool works with points, polygons, or edges, gives you rounding divisions, and allows you to choose between a rounded corner or a square one (square would be used if you wanted to add edges without rounding like in the case of sharpening edges for subdivision surfaces).

TheLexx
05-06-2017, 01:51 PM
All of you, much appreciated for these insights, thanks.

MichaelT
05-06-2017, 02:10 PM
By the way MichaelT-

I asked support about login based licensing. Basically this is their answer to allowing you to use your license on any machine you want to for flexibility. However, you have the option of changing your login based licensing to a permanent RLM license which would not require you to login every 30 days and all the same rules apply as far as maintenance and updates go. The RLM license is tied to one machine, but you can fill out a form if you wish to transfer it to a different machine. You can find a answer about that here: https://support.foundry.com/hc/en-us/articles/205763252-Q100001-Can-I-transfer-my-license-to-another-machine-
And finally you have another option which is a floating permanent RLM license which uses a specific machine as a host that will float the license to another device on the network.

So you have an option of not having a login license which requires you to login every 30 days. If you want to change to a permanent RLM or permanent RLM floating, contact them and have them change it.

Thanks for putting down the effort to contact them, that's nice. And while it is good that they do have an semi offline method, the old key system is much better. That said, I won't fret about it. It is not like I would stop using modo anyway. Besides, it is not like they would care what I think anyway.

jwiede
05-06-2017, 06:13 PM
Well no rounding solution I've found is perfect, they all break in certain situations. But Modo's which is just the bevel tool works with points, polygons, or edges, gives you rounding divisions, and allows you to choose between a rounded corner or a square one (square would be used if you wanted to add edges without rounding like in the case of sharpening edges for subdivision surfaces).

As well as any arbitrary curved profiles, which is very useful.

jwiede
05-06-2017, 06:30 PM
In all honesty when looking at modeling only - the two are very similar with Modo being what Modeler would have been had there not been the split between the two "mommies". (Google Brad Peebler and two mommies.)

Sorry, but the moment MODO added Mesh Fusion and Procedural Mesh generation, MODO accelerated and pulled substantially away from LW+LWCAD in terms of modeling functionality/capability. Those features add capabilities which, though perhaps replicable by manual modeling given infinite time and precision, simply aren't rationally feasible using the tools in LW+LWCAD's modeling arsenal -- for example, use cases such as non-destructive/parametric building/city/road-network generation (a quick example off the top of my head).

One of the reasons that non-destructive/parametric modeling IS such a game-changer, is because it (as now demonstrated repeatedly by users) enhances the modeling output efficiency of users by a exponential amount compared to working in an destructive-workflow modeling environment. The ability to automatically produce large numbers of parametrically-varying sets/collections of objects is a HUGE savings of effort compared to achieving the same using destructive modeling workflows. Users have only begun to tap the potential there in areas like generative environment construction, yet are already seeing immense reduction of effort occurring.

By your own admission, the version of MODO (60x) you're using released over four years / release cycles ago. Such an old version of MODO obviously isn't a useful or reasonable representation of modern MODO modeling capabilities.

hrgiger
05-06-2017, 07:25 PM
By your own admission, the version of MODO (60x) you're using released over four years / release cycles ago. Such an old version of MODO obviously isn't a useful or reasonable representation of modern MODO modeling capabilities.

That's true objectively John but everyone has their preferences. I mean, Houdini is probably better at a lot of things than Modo objectively but I still don't feel comfortable using Houdini.

But yeah I wouldn't agree that Modeler and Modo are similar at all when it comes to modeling, not really close at all.

Snosrap
05-06-2017, 08:42 PM
Sorry, but the moment MODO added Mesh Fusion and Procedural Mesh generation, MODO accelerated and pulled substantially away from LW+LWCAD in terms of modeling functionality/capability. Those features add capabilities which, though perhaps replicable by manual modeling given infinite time and precision, simply aren't rationally feasible using the tools in LW+LWCAD's modeling arsenal -- for example, use cases such as non-destructive/parametric building/city/road-network generation (a quick example off the top of my head).

One of the reasons that non-destructive/parametric modeling IS such a game-changer, is because it (as now demonstrated repeatedly by users) enhances the modeling output efficiency of users by a exponential amount compared to working in an destructive-workflow modeling environment. The ability to automatically produce large numbers of parametrically-varying sets/collections of objects is a HUGE savings of effort compared to achieving the same using destructive modeling workflows. Users have only begun to tap the potential there in areas like generative environment construction, yet are already seeing immense reduction of effort occurring.

By your own admission, the version of MODO (60x) you're using released over four years / release cycles ago. Such an old version of MODO obviously isn't a useful or reasonable representation of modern MODO modeling capabilities.

Yep Mesh Fusion is pretty incredible and I could see myself getting considerable mileage out of that for the decorative furniture hardware that I make. But the other work I do is generally pretty simple - flat pack furniture parts- so I use the box tool a lot and LWCad for adding engineering profiles. Most of what's in LW I never touch so I would not touch even more stuff on Modo. :) No doubt Procedural Mesh generation is great, but when you are working off a sketch with a pretty much known desired result it has less value IMO. Don't get me wrong, LW needs to evolve and get a modern code base so that some of these can be possible, but I won't be asking my boss to upgrade Modo and I won't be upgrading my personal license. Modo does a great job of manufacture file conversion for us as well as some of the tricky UV unwrapping that occasionally comes up. So it really meets our needs even at 601. Here are the results of our work: http://www.sauder.com Everything is initially designed from sketches and then conceptualized with LW before engineering and prototypes are built. No fancy LW or Modo tools needed - just the basics. :)

136742

Hip
05-08-2017, 06:33 AM
Thank you very much for your answers. For the sake of interest, over the past couple of days I learned one similar video tutorial on the subject modeling and visualization of each of the programs, Modo and Lightwave. Both software showed sufficient opportunities for my tasks, at least at an introductory level, but in general Lightwave seemed clearer and more intuitive, although many things work in a similar way. I still can not decide on the choice, although intuitively I still want to give a chance to Lightwave. I do not know why, maybe because I've been working in Rhinoceros for many years, and some general concept of software and company policies are the same, and I'm just used to this, and maybe because I'm not looking for easy ways, I do not know :) I have questions, and if I finally stop at Lightwave, can I count on your help and advice, gentlemen?
At the moment I was interested in saying:


Me too, also I like vpr more that modo's.

Based on the lessons learned, I did not understand just how good a renderer is, the only thing I learned is that they are very good. Could you comment on whether the renderer in the Lightwave can be considered better than in Modo for more complex scenes or for example animation?

And I'm also interested in some general comments on the tools for simulating soft bodies, water, various effects and particles, these two software. Qualitative visualization and the ability to animate good effects for me are very important. I understand that sometimes it's silly to compare different software, but I would like to hear at least sub-subjective opinions. Thank you!

Snosrap
05-08-2017, 06:45 AM
Both renderers are excellent IMO. It's how you interact with them that is different. Modo has the Shader Tree and some node capabilities. LW has its tried and true layer system and a full compliment and extremely powerful node system. I have found things like subsurface scattering to be easier to set up in Modo, but by in large LWs shading system to me is easier to come to grips with. The Shader Tree in Modo has a lot of hidden power but is confusing for me. (Frankly I hate it! :)) Download both and see which one clicks with you.

Asticles
05-08-2017, 08:23 AM
Hip,

For me is a matter of taste. I work with lots of instances, and the response I get with LW is far better than modo, in viewport and vpr. But as I said, it's my opinion.

Of course I work with vpr in draft mode, without it, everything would be different.

hrgiger
05-08-2017, 05:04 PM
Modo's replicators/instances were improved in the new version and performance jumped 10x in some cases.

I like modo's interactive renderer better than VPR. You can save progressive renders much like fprime used to do. so render, save out current quality level, come back later load that in and continue rendering It also has the render focus under the mouse cursor (which LW next will have). It also has a refine endlessly feature so you can continue rendering past your current render settings. In version 10, they added mesh lights allowing you to turn any mesh into an actual light type (cleaner then luminous geometry). You can also render curves in Modo, render particle trails as geometry, micro-poly displacement. Also added in version 10 was Unreal and Unity shaders so you can render your PBR materials as well as seeing the in real time in the advanced viewport with environmental lighting. The physically accurate daylight is nice as well. They added deferred meshes in version 9, allowing you to stream heavy poly models from disk so they don't slow the scene down, but you can see them in your scene and render them as part of the scene. Two different kinds of tone mapping... lots of good features.

Greenlaw
06-10-2017, 03:24 PM
Ok, really OT: I think I tried running the HitFilm plugins in Fusion 6 (I have the OFX plugins,) but Fusion 6 broke when I upgraded to Windows 10. Before that, it seemed like I ran into some other compatibility problems with HitFilm and Fusion. Just wondering, does the current 'pro' version of Fusion run HitFilm plugins? I'd like to upgrade but I'm still weighing that decision since I've gone a couple of years now without using Fusion.

Quick followup: I finally saved up enough money to upgrade to Fusion Studio. My dongle arrived yesterday and 'licensing' is ridculously simple: I just plugged in the dongle and it worked! So much easier than the licensing system Eyeon had for previous versions.

Packaging is simple: box with a dongle and memory card holding the 8.1 installer. I was a little confused that there seemed to be no way to register the license on the website. It turned out I register when I request the 8.2 update from BMD's website. Be sure to hold on to the package...you're going to need if for registration.

BTW, the full installer also includes Generations, which uses the same dongle.

Regarding HitFilm OFX: Fusion apparently does not like the HitFilm plugins. No biggie but I do get a benign OFX error on launch. I recall seeing this error message in back in Fusion 6--I don't remember how I made it stop doing that but I'm sure there's info at the BMD forums.

That's all. :)