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robertoortiz
03-17-2017, 08:52 AM
I was debating recently that maybe LW would benefit from emulating some of the functionality from vector illustration programs.
Imagine having the ability to be able to DRAW in layout a spline in 3d space and be able to fill it the same way you would do it in a program like Illustrator.
Or being able to select surfaces and change gradients and surface settings with the same flexibility you get in vector programs.

And the col thing is that this functionality would NOT REPALCE anything it would just complement current workflows. Hell I would allow the ability to modify the tool panel
with custom nodes.

What do you guys think?

-R

tischbein3
03-17-2017, 10:13 AM
I'm all in for looking at workflows as much as possible from 2D application, because I'm a strong believer that there is a lot you can do to simplify the process of creating 3D content in a 2D / 2.5D environment.
For example, I allways thought about having a layout tool wich allows me to interactively position /scale /rotate an image texture layer in 3d view. But as far as I know this is not possible via the sdk, since I cannot get the information about the current selected texture layer.

As for a tool panel.. why not, an own collection of often used commands / scripts / plugins, fully configurable. I mean this would be even be possible to be created by 3rd party devs as a master plugin. (Icons might be a bit of a pain but if you would use some interface stuff like wxwidgets, this also should not be a problem... )

fablefox
03-21-2017, 02:12 AM
I read an update blog by developer of Rocket3f

https://rocket3f.com/updates/76-version-1-3-3

Icon based tool panel is good if done correctly. I'll give it a test run tonight and see how fun it would be.

erikals
03-21-2017, 11:49 AM
i'm all for it, but only to a certain degree.

i can actually create icons and advanced function in Modeler / Layout now, using AHK.
just haven't had the time.

unfortunately, many times a pro-icon discussion ends up not fruitful, as some people derail into less important stuff.

but hey, i'll just make my own AHK hack anyway.     :P   :)


note, not all comments were negative, i just found it tiring.
maybe this thread will have more luck.

Reco
03-21-2017, 12:40 PM
I’m not sure I’m fully understand your point. Do you want an icon based toolbox, or do you want a 2D illustrator option in a 3D space

Reco

robertoortiz
03-21-2017, 01:19 PM
I’m not sure I’m fully understand your point. Do you want an icon based toolbox, or do you want a 2D illustrator option in a 3D space

Reco

Well the idea is to be able to create with ease in 3d space.
The way I see it we should be looking at 2d vector programs.

THE ICONS
Having a simple panel with a simple pen/ fill/ curve icons is something that I think would make modeling a bit more intuitive.

The VECTOR OPTIONS
And I would love the FEEL of a vector painting program in LW. I am sure a lot of artists would love it too. Specially if we can make this work in Layout.

stiff paper
03-21-2017, 02:14 PM
...maybe LW would benefit from emulating some of the functionality from vector illustration programs.

Your posts always make it sound as if you despise everything about the way LightWave works.

Your suggestions are always "Make it work like this other thing that works in exactly the opposite way to how LW works!" or "Make it look exactly like this other thing that looks nothing like how LW looks!"

But yeah, you're obviously correct. I don't know what I was thinking. LW definitely shouldn't look or work anything like LightWave. It's totally wrong that it's not exactly the same in every way as something else. We need to make LW be exactly like 3ds Max! Or C4D! Or Maya! Or something else I'll think of in a minute...

At least then you'd like it... right? At least then it wouldn't be all, like, LightWave...

robertoortiz
03-21-2017, 02:42 PM
Your posts always make it sound as if you despise everything about the way LightWave works.

Your suggestions are always "Make it work like this other thing that works in exactly the opposite way to how LW works!" or "Make it look exactly like this other thing that looks nothing like how LW looks!"

But yeah, you're obviously correct. I don't know what I was thinking. LW definitely shouldn't look or work anything like LightWave. It's totally wrong that it's not exactly the same in every way as something else. We need to make LW be exactly like 3ds Max! Or C4D! Or Maya! Or something else I'll think of in a minute...

At least then you'd like it... right? At least then it wouldn't be all, like, LightWave...

Actually I love Lightwave. And boy I get a lot of flack for it.
I am literally just finished rendering a 7k image for a immersive project I am working on.
But I also I am aware that LW workflows need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.
But to be frank this is a problem with MOST 3d apps whose workflows were designed in the 90's.
EDIT the way they work they feel like tools designed for computer science students and not artists.
And I do get WHY they are designed this way, hell I have been in this industry for quite a while( hell I played with MAYA 1.0 when it came out)
But there is nothing wrong with trying to make 3d More accessible.

erikals
03-21-2017, 04:42 PM
agree, though sometimes i wonder if silence is the way to go.

bah!! too late now... >
http://forums.newtek.com/archive/index.php/t-139159

robertoortiz
03-22-2017, 05:39 AM
agree, though sometimes i wonder if silence is the way to go.

bah!! too late now... >
http://forums.newtek.com/archive/index.php/t-139159
You got some great ideas. Those video you made are golden.

My take on this is that Newtek has a golden opportunity with adding modeling tools to Layout.

Why not go in a completely new artist friendly modern direction?
And what I am suggesting is a just a fancy icon based wrapper for tools that ANY digital artist worth his salt would recognize intermediately.

So What I am proposing is
* ICON BASED TOOL PANEL
* MAYBE non destructive
* HISTORY BASED
* CUSTOM TOOLS (Using NODES) that when wrapped would be showed on the PANEL
* and maybe the ability to select EDGES (for NPR work)


This would make the program attractive for GRAPHIC DESIGNERS looking for a 3d Solution
who might find a program like BLENDER overwhelming, BUT BOY they get ADOBE ILLUSTRATOR.
And for the frist release I am not asking for too many tools
JUST 6
DRAW
SHAPE (BOX, CONE, ETC)
SELECT
FILL
GRADIENT/MATERIAL
TRANSFORMATION (LATHE,EXTRUDE, BEVEL,etc)

erikals
03-22-2017, 05:44 AM
it's like Ikeda said, Modeler tools and other features got left behind.

luckily 3rd party engineers "Get it"

other areas of LW development is steadily moving forward though, so that's good.


in LWG's defense they have had numerous though obstacles >

1. the guys leaving LightWave for then to form Modo
2. building up LightWave after that (getting new coders, etc...)
3. trying to make something new, Core, but we know what happened to that.
4. bringing together pieces and launching LW10
5. rising, launching LW11, then LW11.5
6. bug fixer Ikeda leaves


all considered, i think LWG did pretty well.
hope to see cool LW stuff in the near future.

Norka
03-22-2017, 07:34 AM
I'll just say, again, it is my strong personal opinion that it is way faster to read a couple words (milliseconds) than to find/interpret/process/recognize an icon that sits next to, or is surrounded by many other icons. I feel pretty strongly about this and it (text based) is one of my favorite things about LW, but I understand why some think they like icons better, even if they (imho) mistakenly have the perception that they are more efficient and make for a less cluttered workspace.

Chris S. (Fez)
03-22-2017, 08:19 AM
Given Lightwave's rich tradition of motion graphics and NPR it would be immensely useful to be able to use vector PDFs created in Adobe Illustrator as textures. .AI files are PDFs. Like the implementation in Max, we should be able to select which AI board is used and scrub/animate a sequence of boards.

jeric_synergy
03-22-2017, 10:25 AM
I'll just say, again, it is my strong personal opinion that it is way faster to read a couple words (milliseconds) than to find/interpret/process/recognize an icon that sits next to, or is surrounded by many other icons. I feel pretty strongly about this and it (text based) is one of my favorite things about LW, but I understand why some think they like icons better, even if they (imho) mistakenly have the perception that they are more efficient and make for a less cluttered workspace.
YES yes, a thousand times YES.

OTOH, I'm pretty sure that there's a ton of research out there we could reference to find out for sure.

WHile I like the LW text interface, I'm forced to admit that text isn't the complete solution: 3D-Coat has a mainly text interface (you can mix and match), but it's still a pain in the butt to FIND any given tool. I blame the extremely, imo, cluttered and not-especially-well-organized layout. They violate, AFAICTell, the principle of "like with like" constantly in the tools section.

Perhaps it's better layed out in Russian, but in English it just seems a mess. Really a pity, because it's powerful AF.

So kudos to LW for a better (certainly not optimum) UI LAYOUT.

Norka
03-22-2017, 10:40 AM
A couple here and there. Like Modeler's Move, Rotate, Zoom in Viewports. Perfectly fine for stuff like that, imho...

jeric_synergy
03-22-2017, 10:45 AM
A couple here and there. Like Modeler's Move, Rotate, Zoom in Viewports. Perfectly fine for stuff like that, imho...

Sure, but more advanced stuff? Good luck making an icon for "Weight Outward". ;)

To tell you the truth, making icons is FUN: I suspect a conspiracy from the graphic designers pushing icon-centric UIs.

Ztreem
03-22-2017, 11:31 AM
OTOH, I'm pretty sure that there's a ton of research out there we could reference to find out for sure.



Actually what I learned at the university studying design was that the human mind faster recognize symbols then reading text. First time user will benefit from text rather then symbols as its easier to understand the meaning.

gamedesign1
03-22-2017, 12:32 PM
If the software just allowed you to use text, icon or both and make the icon customizable so you can make your own, then that would cover all areas :)

erikals
03-22-2017, 12:52 PM
If the software just allowed you to use text, icon or both and make the icon customizable so you can make your own, then that would cover all areas :)

gamedesign1, 20+ to you, fully agree   :)

(just to add, making the user choose a customized placement of the icons)

Norka
03-22-2017, 01:00 PM
Actually what I learned at the university studying design was that the human mind faster recognize symbols then reading text. First time user will benefit from text rather then symbols as its easier to understand the meaning.

Perhaps for things like an up arrow, a red octagon -- anything more complex than just basic colors/shapes and very simple symbols will lose every single time against a couple words, imo.

robertoortiz
03-22-2017, 01:15 PM
One point I wanted to make is that I am NOT advocating with doing away wit the text interface in LW.
Considering the complexity of 3d tools that would not work.

What I am saying is establishing special panel IN LAYOUT with some BASIC DRAWING tools. The kind of tools you would find in ANY vector drawing program.
Icon of tools like
PEN TOOL
SHAPE TOOL (rectangle, Circle)
SURFACE/GRADIENT

This would not REPLACE the modeling tools in MODELER , they would be a new feature in LAYOUT.

Norka
03-22-2017, 01:22 PM
Okay. I gotcha. Maybe opens/closes with a hotkey. I personally wouldn't want it always there, persistently.

erikals
03-22-2017, 01:24 PM
Okay. I gotcha. Maybe opens/closes with a hotkey. I personally wouldn't want it always there, persistently.

my next AHK "quick launch" system will probably work like this.

Schwyhart
03-22-2017, 02:10 PM
My biggest problem is that I can't increase the font size inside of Lightwave. Drives me nuts!
I have two 30" monitors and I can't see the UI text.
AFAIK, the only way to increase font size is to change the resolution of my monitors.

jeric_synergy
03-22-2017, 04:27 PM
If the software just allowed you to use text, icon or both and make the icon customizable so you can make your own, then that would cover all areas :)
Well, I don't know about designing the icon, but LAYOUT (re-arranging the order) would be welcome.

My thing is: how many users, in percentage, are ACTUALLY going to do that? It may not be worth the candle (programmer hours) to allow it.

OTOH, if there's an inhouse tool that does it, for sure make it available. But, personally, I'd be leery of asking my dev team to squander days tweeking something one in a thousand users might access.
++++

My unresearched intuition is that screen placement/memory, or spatial memory, is more important for experienced users. Of course, it's of zero importance to new users.

kopperdrake
03-22-2017, 06:14 PM
Actually what I learned at the university studying design was that the human mind faster recognize symbols then reading text. First time user will benefit from text rather then symbols as its easier to understand the meaning.

Yes it does, but in reality you learn the shortcuts for the tools you use most often - I have a difficult time remembering where certain tools are as it's so much quicker to learn the shortcuts. However, the tools you rarely use you tend to hunt the menus for, and as you don't use them often enough to remember the shortcuts, a descriptive text button helps you decipher which tool is the one you need. For example, an icon for a button I rarely use - 'Cvt Powergons' - is going to be far more ambiguous than the text, given the nature of the beast. But I know what 'Cvt Powergons' means. Something simple, such as the 'Mirror' tool is all well and good, but then it's a very common tool and will/should be picked up quickly as a shortcut.

But I do agree with you - the option for an icon is always nice - I'd like more options in LW in the future - in particular the panels which drive me nuts!

gamedesign1
03-22-2017, 06:33 PM
Well, I don't know about designing the icon, but LAYOUT (re-arranging the order) would be welcome.

My thing is: how many users, in percentage, are ACTUALLY going to do that? It may not be worth the candle (programmer hours) to allow it.

OTOH, if there's an inhouse tool that does it, for sure make it available. But, personally, I'd be leery of asking my dev team to squander days tweeking something one in a thousand users might access.
++++

My unresearched intuition is that screen placement/memory, or spatial memory, is more important for experienced users. Of course, it's of zero importance to new users.

I totally agree, I was only taking about the ideal :)

Revanto
03-22-2017, 08:55 PM
I've always liked the text based tool buttons instead of icons as long as there are things like colour variations and separators/groups which make it easier to distinguish them quickly. But, in saying that, some people work better with icons. If Newtek were sane, they would provide the option for both where you can choose one, the other or a mixture of both. I see no harm in making things as customisable as possible.
In saying this, I also think that LW Next should have the option of having Modeler and Layout separate as well as a separate executable that allows for both to be used as one. If they merged both programs then, for me, it would suck because I would rather have a stable, solid modelling tool just when I need to model something than a laggy Mod/Lay tool that uses unnecessary resources and has things I don't need.

Revanto :p

Stardust
03-22-2017, 10:51 PM
Honestly,

I've been with LW a bit less than with Photoshop (like a year o so), all in all I've used PS a lot more than LW since 1996 and I just recently got the 2015.3 version and have a hughe GAP in LW since version 7.x or so... I alway liked the TEXT menus in LW, whenever I see some of the Icons of other 3D apps, I'm like WTF is this?, with TEXT I know what it is, if its a word I haven't seen before I know its new and look up the function in the Manual... with PS till this day I still don't know what half the Icons mean.

Icons are nice for stuff like Navigation, resizing things, moving/rotating - in order to to have to click just to move/size/rotate... something but we already have keyboard shortcuts for that...

I really don't know, I want LW to suceed and in order for that.. the "User Experience" plays some part in it.. the WOW effect when you open a program for the first time.. and in LW thats not there, its what Tim sayd about the "Amiga LW videotoaster plug-in" button... LW looks a lot like "Homework"... the wow effect only comes afterwards.. after having done your "Homework"... but thats not taking into consideration when making a purchase decision, at least not by many people, specially these days and when you look at some of the stuff they are doing with Game engines these days.... There tough times ahead for the entire industry, but also very exiting times because were on the verge of another paradigm shift in computing.. with VR and Touch devices... Maybe create a complete new UI ontop of the old one? Like game engines used to have.. which is kinda the philosophy of having modeler and layout separate... Have 3rd UI, VR/touch etc.. ready.. full wow effect, no technical knowledge requiered and for those that want to dig deeper, on a click bring up good old layout and or modeler.???? It is a dilema.

Norka
03-23-2017, 06:50 AM
Whenever people are contemplating or debating the whole icons vs text thing, something that cannot be forgotten or discounted is that humans by and large think in words. Instant recognition happens because I already have the exact words in my head when my eyes are scanning around looking for something in Modeler, Layout, etc. For this reason, text smokes icons every time...

Schwyhart
03-23-2017, 08:29 AM
Unless you can't read the text because it's too small and can't be adjusted. I can read the text in other software (and I can size it), but not in Lightwave. The only way to adjust it is to change the resolution of my monitor. It sucks.

Surrealist.
03-23-2017, 09:42 AM
Text is so 1800s. There is an evolution comming. It will be called graphic design. And get this, not only will complex ideas be able to be comunicated in easy-to-grasp pictograms, it will be done in color. Borrowing from time-honored ancient practices of the Egytians and even cave men, these icons - as they will be called - will revolutionize comunication as we know it.

Schwyhart
03-23-2017, 09:43 AM
I submitted a Feature Request for adjusting font size. No idea if it'll get through.


Text is so 1800s. There is an evolution comming. It will be called graphic design. And get this, not only will complex ideas be able to be comunicated in easy-to-grasp pictograms, it will be done in color. Borrowing from time-honored ancient practices of the Egytians and even cave men, these icons - as they will be called - will revolutionize comunication as we know it.

To solve this, if LW3DG added the ability to attach an .icns or .ICO file to a button and hide text, everyone would be happy.

jeric_synergy
03-23-2017, 10:01 AM
Wouldn't that make icons a step BACKWARDS?

Norka
03-23-2017, 10:14 AM
Text is so 1800s. There is an evolution comming. It will be called graphic design. And get this, not only will complex ideas be able to be comunicated in easy-to-grasp pictograms, it will be done in color. Borrowing from time-honored ancient practices of the Egytians and even cave men, these icons - as they will be called - will revolutionize comunication as we know it.

Cave men used icons because they did not possess the words to describe the world around them... thus, they were a bunch of freaking retards. You spelled coming wrong.

ianr
03-23-2017, 11:39 AM
WORDS are BETTER than ICONS. everytime WE GET AN ICON, they TRY & CHANGE THE WORLD!

(whoops,Sorry wrong Icon, I thought this was the weekly Carl Jung Class) ?

-with kudos to Norka-

stiff paper
03-23-2017, 12:08 PM
If only somebody at some point in mankind's long development had invented a full set of distinct, individual, readily identifiable icons that any given human could use to convey specific meanings to all the other humans.

Ooh, no, wait. What are those things called? The icon things. Little pictures. They're just... like... you know. They're icons. Come on, come on... the little pictures. What the hell are they called?

Wait, wait. I remember. They're called an alphabet. You must have seen it. It's, like, twenty something icons, and you can use them together.

People who can't comprehend that letters are already small images are so dense they're... umm... what are those things called? You know... they take really useful things and make them rubbish? Dammit... I know there's a word for them...

Oh yeah... I remember... designers.

raymondtrace
03-23-2017, 01:07 PM
I was debating recently that maybe LW would benefit from emulating some of the functionality from vector illustration programs.

Icons are good for communicating simple concepts but there is a limit to their usefulness when you have too many items to represent visually. Even Adobe found this limit. Your Illustrator program icon is no longer Venus. Adobe moved from images to letters: [Il].

Also compare older and newer versions of apps like Maya and TrueSpace for how their icons/commands evolved. Maya 1 was painful to look at. TrueSpace likely died from icon abuse.

prometheus
03-23-2017, 01:17 PM
If only somebody at some point in mankind's long development had invented a full set of distinct, individual, readily identifiable icons that any given human could use to convey specific meanings to all the other humans.

Ooh, no, wait. What are those things called? The icon things. Little pictures. They're just... like... you know. They're icons. Come on, come on... the little pictures. What the hell are they called?

Wait, wait. I remember. They're called an alphabet. You must have seen it. It's, like, twenty something icons, and you can use them together.

People who can't comprehend that letters are already small images are so dense they're... umm... what are those things called? You know... they take really useful things and make them rubbish? Dammit... I know there's a word for them...

Oh yeah... I remember... designers.

Letters are associated with phonetic speach, and any such letter hardly does make any reference to any action unless it is read along with other letters, you read..you do not visualize anything really until you have read it, with the exceptios some letters.
An icon image will reference your brain faster as to what attribute a button has....If the icon is good and well know, Or If the user has learned it, the speed may be equal if you are custom to have a button placed in a certain placeholder in the menu, so you know instinctivly where to go since you have repeated it so many times, in such case you hardly need to read it..but otherwise, reading a menu button is slower....unless the icons are horrible, se the next response.



TrueSpace likely died from icon abuse.

That is probably one of the major reasons, yes...otherwise I liked some stuff in truespace, but I havenīt really fired it up for years, though it is still free, the truespace Icons sucked, and became too many as well.

Schwyhart
03-23-2017, 02:54 PM
Deuce, from LW3DG, responded to my feature request, which was asking about font size:

1. Launch /Applications/TextEdit by double clicking its icon.

2. Enter the following text into the edit window. Please note that it is important to have the ".app" extension included in the filename. The location of your LightWave installation may differ, so adjust as needed.

#!/bin/sh
open /Applications/NewTek/LightWave3D_2015.3/Layout.app --args [email protected]

(Tahoma can be replaced with any font installed on your computer and the size can be any point size)

3. Save the text file to your desktop as "Launch Layout Font". Make sure to avoid a ".txt" extension when saving.

4. Open a Terminal window using the /Applications/Utilities/Terminal application.

5. The script must be 'executable' so it will launch as a command when double-clicked with the mouse instead of opening as a text file. Make sure the current working path is the desktop (enter "cd ~/Desktop" if necessary) then enter this command.

chmod +x "Launch Layout Font"

Note that on some OS configurations, you may need to prefix the file name with
"./", or to avoid using quotes, the spaces in the file name need to be escaped
(i.e., a "" before them). So, either this:

chmod +x "./Launch Layout Font" ***This one worked for me***

or this:

chmod +x ./Launch\ Layout\ Font

may need to be used instead.

6. Now, you can simply double-mouse-click the icon to launch Layout with a different font.

The text file should be "Launch Layout Font.app"
You can open this in TextWrangler and edit the font and font size, click save and it's updated.
Close Layout, and double-click "Launch Layout Font.app" and it will launch Layout with updated font.

136341

samurai_x
03-23-2017, 04:21 PM
Icon's and text doesn't matter much when you've spent 100 hours on software and use it everyday.
Its the layout and location of these tools that matter from user to user. Its almost muscle memory .

I could send my lightwave settings to somebody else and I'm sure that person will be having a FUN time using modeler, layout using my theme.
Same for my modo, maya, blender, max settings.

jeric_synergy
03-23-2017, 05:15 PM
Well, I guess all those people studing user interface principles can go home now.

erikals
03-23-2017, 05:26 PM
won't happen any time soon, but if you get into the basics of autohotkey, this is a quite easy hack >


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzf_TCQgHuQ


feel free to improve the idea,
just a hack, not meant to be part of the LightWave User Interface.

just a personal hack idea, for those who would find it interesting to implement such.


(mid-clicking the "inverted" area however will always launch the user's configured LW function e.g. "make box")

Ztreem
03-23-2017, 05:36 PM
Deuce, from LW3DG, responded to my feature request, which was asking about font size:

1. Launch /Applications/TextEdit by double clicking its icon.

2. Enter the following text into the edit window. Please note that it is important to have the ".app" extension included in the filename. The location of your LightWave installation may differ, so adjust as needed.

#!/bin/sh
open /Applications/NewTek/LightWave3D_2015.3/Layout.app --args [email protected]

(Tahoma can be replaced with any font installed on your computer and the size can be any point size)

3. Save the text file to your desktop as "Launch Layout Font". Make sure to avoid a ".txt" extension when saving.

4. Open a Terminal window using the /Applications/Utilities/Terminal application.

5. The script must be 'executable' so it will launch as a command when double-clicked with the mouse instead of opening as a text file. Make sure the current working path is the desktop (enter "cd ~/Desktop" if necessary) then enter this command.

chmod +x "Launch Layout Font"

Note that on some OS configurations, you may need to prefix the file name with
"./", or to avoid using quotes, the spaces in the file name need to be escaped
(i.e., a "" before them). So, either this:

chmod +x "./Launch Layout Font" ***This one worked for me***

or this:

chmod +x ./Launch\ Layout\ Font

may need to be used instead.

6. Now, you can simply double-mouse-click the icon to launch Layout with a different font.

The text file should be "Launch Layout Font.app"
You can open this in TextWrangler and edit the font and font size, click save and it's updated.
Close Layout, and double-click "Launch Layout Font.app" and it will launch Layout with updated font.

136341


It's really good that it's possible to do this, but its a very good example of LW's lack of user friendly workflows.

djwaterman
03-23-2017, 06:18 PM
If it's actually possible to change font sizes then they need to make it easier to do, no one wants to pretend to be a code nerd and go through all that just to change font size, and is that Mac OS?

Schwyhart
03-23-2017, 06:19 PM
Deuce said that they're looking into this for LW Next. I'd take that with a grain of salt.

I'm fine with either text or icons, or both, but I need to be able to see it.

- - - Updated - - -


If it's actually possible to change font sizes then they need to make it easier to do, no one wants to pretend to be a code nerd and go through all that just to change font size, and is that Mac OS?

Yes, this is Mac OSX 10.12.3 with LW 2015.3

Danner
03-23-2017, 06:21 PM
I've been learning a lot of different pieces of software lately and all I can tell you is that Icons are good if done right, (like in MOI) if you over do them they become nightmarish (like a 3DSMax build I had to use years ago) Heck if you look closely LW does have a few icons already.

I do believe the OP means well and is actively testing the opinions of others regarding areas where he feels LW could be improved, It might be a bit late for the release of LW Next to take feature requests into account but there is always the next after the next (I hope =).

This might be an unpopular opinion but I find myself missing LW's workflow quite often, specially for assigning and modifying materials. So many more clicks and mouse mileage in most apps I've been using and learning lately, (looking at you Clarisse ) Even in Unity, a very modern and actively developed software you can't pick a surface by clicking on it in 3d. (the object gets selected and it's pretty useless if you have 40 materials to burn your eyes on by looking for the right one). I could rant quite a bit more but It might be unpleasant. =)

rustythe1
03-24-2017, 04:28 AM
personaly,
1, I prefer text, I think that's one of the reasons I managed to pick up lightwave so fast,
2, I think they need to defiantly look into allowing more customization of the interface though, I just upgraded to two UHD 43" displays, unfortunately its not possible to use desktop scaling as this causes really bad mouse motion problems so changing button/toolbar/text size would be a great help, also if the text on the button is too big it gets cut off as desktop scaling only scales the text and not the button (and desktop scaling just seems to defeat the object of having a bigger display to me)
3, not sure if its been mentioned but they already have very basic clean icons in place! they appear as your cursor when you select certain things or primitives (eg you get a cone icon if you draw a cone)

jeric_synergy
03-24-2017, 08:56 AM
personaly,
1, I prefer text, I think that's one of the reasons I managed to pick up lightwave so fast,
I found, ymmv, that the practice of having the hotkey CONTINUOUSLY visible made a huge difference in how fast I picked them up.

So, IMO, "balloon help" for hotkeys is the pits: keep it visible.

ianr
03-24-2017, 09:28 AM
Deuce said that they're looking into this for LW Next. I'd take that with a grain of salt.

I'm fine with either text or icons, or both, but I need to be able to see it.

- - - Updated - - -



Yes, this is Mac OSX 10.12.3 with LW 2015.3


If was Deuce I would be discussing with LW3DG the fact that Houdini 16

has taken on the Ellipical floating Auto keys at screen centre,

that Alias originally thought up for Maya. Maybe we should have them?

prometheus
03-24-2017, 11:24 AM
Icon's and text doesn't matter much when you've spent 100 hours on software and use it everyday.
Its the layout and location of these tools that matter from user to user. Its almost muscle memory .

I could send my lightwave settings to somebody else and I'm sure that person will be having a FUN time using modeler, layout using my theme.
Same for my modo, maya, blender, max settings.

Not for a Newbie, they wonīt have that imprinted in any muscle memory until they have practiced a lot, so in that case..basic all common well defined icons would be better, special poorly defined icons would be worse though.
So why donīt we just skip the remaining icons in lightwave?

raymondtrace
03-24-2017, 01:11 PM
If it's actually possible to change font sizes then they need to make it easier to do, no one wants to pretend to be a code nerd and go through all that just to change font size, and is that Mac OS?

This is much simpler in LW for Windows. No code-nerdery required. Just tweak the properties for the program shorcut by adding "[email protected]" to the end as shown in this image.

136346

rustythe1
03-24-2017, 01:18 PM
This is much simpler in LW for Windows. No code-nerdery required. Just tweak the properties for the program shorcut by adding "[email protected]" to the end as shown in this image.

136346

as I said though, the problem with doing this is that the menu buttons don't get wider so it cuts off the text, then you cant tell things like reduce polys and reduce polys+ apart as you cant read the last few digits,

raymondtrace
03-24-2017, 03:31 PM
... the problem with doing this is that the menu buttons don't get wider...

As a workaround, you can choose a larger condensed font on your system. Here is MyriadPro Condensed:
\bin\Layout.exe [email protected]

136347

Schwyhart
03-25-2017, 07:27 AM
Changing font size is MUCH easier with Windows!
I'm still glad that it's at least possible on a Mac. I was able to increase it two sizes, I think, without it cutting off most buttons. I'm not sure what the font style/size LW uses by default.
The problem is when you open up the scene editor. Things get out of place. The item name doesn't line up with the corresponding graph line.
It's a quick fix that sorta works, but ultimately LW3DG needs to fix this. It will only get worse when higher res monitors come out.

Schwyhart
03-25-2017, 07:30 AM
Also, it looks as though the buttons don't get wider horizontally, but they do get wider vertically. Can we return text to second line?

Norka
03-25-2017, 09:09 AM
Hmmm, good question.. my guess is no.. but you should be able to rename stuff (in Edit Menu Layout window) that is getting cut off in buttons for things that have longer names, by using lots of abbreviations. Probably a real major p-i-t-a, but might make this work for you...

bobakabob
03-26-2017, 03:42 PM
The Lightwave UI is great as its intuitive and especially helpful if you know what you're looking for. Maya icons work pretty well as hovering your mouse over them reveals a handy verbal translation. It really takes little time to move between these apps. Zbrush is interesting as despite complaints much of it is in plain English combined with a mouse over for extra info. They're all good imo.

prometheus
03-27-2017, 10:37 AM
When it comes to UI shelf, I prefer the Houdini way, which is both good icons that also are text labels, if Lightwave was to introduce a floating icon based tool panel, it should be optional and just like the houdini shelf, I see no reason for the shelf to contain just text or just icons, just make the shelf highly customable...meaning scaling, re-order, pick or add your own favourites, and scrollable within the shelfs.
Keep the rest of the UI intact with text.

Problem solved

DrStrik9
03-27-2017, 12:03 PM
I'm ok with icons, as long as when you hover for less than a second, the text also shows up as an overlay, with the ability to turn text on and off in the prefs.

jeric_synergy
03-27-2017, 12:22 PM
I used to be a fan of balloon help, but now I think the time-gap just slows one down.

Having the hotkey and the label visible CONSTANTLY is preferable, because it obviates the need for any mouse movement, and mouse movements are SLOW, compared to A) keyboard shortcuts and B) the speed of one's eyes to flick over and acquire the text. I also think that user retention of hotkeys are improved by having them constantly visible.

erikals
03-27-2017, 12:55 PM
no fan of balloons, if i could right click an icon for a balloon info, that'd be alright though.

Ernest
03-27-2017, 03:33 PM
My personal philosophy regarding icons is that if it takes you more than 5 seconds to think of what the icon for some command should be, then it should not have an icon at all. If it takes you less than 2 seconds to think of what the icon of a command should look like, then it should just be an icon. If it takes you between two and five seconds to think of what the icon of the command should be, then you should/could use both the icon and text.

If every command in a 3D app gets an icon, it's just visual clutter. There are just too many commands. Having that many icons works against the easy identification that icons are supposed to provide. In a sea of small squared pictures, all pictures start looking the same. There are also too many commands that don't make for immediately obvious icons. If you try to give an icon to everything, you'll inevitably end up with a red monocycle somewhere.That's not just useless, that's anti-useful and takes extra time while the icon gets decoded.

But turning the obvious commands into icons saves space and makes those commands stand out and faster to get to. Things like box, ball, move, rotate have such easy and obvious images attached to them, that there could be no confusion as to what those icons do.

In the case presented by the OP, icons that are used almost universally in illustration packages, which perform very similar commands to the ones of those illustration packages would be small enough in number and instantly recognizable by the target audience.

Of course, if the tradeoff for getting icons is that the text commands get a huge minimum height like in Core, then better to stay with just text.

erikals
03-27-2017, 04:35 PM
this is why i'd like to make my own customized Ui.

pming
03-27-2017, 07:14 PM
Hiya!

Caligari trueSpace v7. :)

More than enough icons to choke a dead camel, but with v7 you had a choice for either "1D" or "2D". The first one, 1D, showed Text buttons...and the second one, 2D, showed the famous tS Icons. You could even have some 'shelves/panels' show 1D and others show 2D. You can drag-n-dock them to any side of the screen, or leave them free-floating.

Man...one thing about trueSpace though, many of it's ideas were ahead of their time for a lot of stuff. IIRC, trueSpace was the first affordable, Windows-desktop based 3D program to use 'shaded mode' via 3DR (I think that was what it was called). It also had a cool trick; take two or more objects that intersect each other, or not, then surround all of them with a cube. Then use Boolean-Intersection of the cube and the objects. POOF! All your objects were now 'booleaned together' as one solid object...but that's not what the trick was. The trick was if you had a non-solid object, or one that had flipped or missing faces you couldn't find, using this method would instantly fill any missing polygons and 'flip' any reversed ones. Every time I get a new 3D program or test one out, I always see if it can do this because I find it super useful. Even in later editions when a "Solidify" tool was added (or was it a free plugin?), it didn't always work...but this trick did.

I still have trueSpace installed just to pop back in and dick around a bit, smiling to myself as I think..."Wow. Cool program...but now I can do this operation in 8 seconds, in stead of 8 minutes". Helps me appreciate all the innovations and gains the industry has made over the decades.

jeric_synergy
03-27-2017, 10:52 PM
1) obviously, if it's not crazy hard to implement, user choice is better, which could be text, text+icons, icons only, and ZERO INTERFACE (all hotkeys).

2) I suspect that for VERY often used tools, "spatial" is important in retention.

3) We haven't even gotten to color, which is very neglected of late.

4) Marking menus too.

5) If devs have tools to create interfaces (not necessarily), they should make those tools available to the customer/users, and let the chips fall where they may.