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ernpchan
03-09-2017, 03:28 PM
I only knew about this via the newsletter that just came out but this blog post is posted 2/28. Lino's renders look pretty good to me.

https://blog.lightwave3d.com/2017/02/cel-shading-features/

wyattharris
03-09-2017, 03:41 PM
Okay not just me. The date reads Feb 28th and I was like, "I know I've been hitting refresh at least once a day" lol.
Really good results LW3DG. That last animation is especially well put together.

So uh... any closer to a release?

wesleycorgi
03-09-2017, 03:56 PM
Me likey!

vonpietro
03-09-2017, 04:52 PM
well - that made my day being i've invested alot into cel style -- my best efforts so far in cel - https://www.artstation.com/artwork/OJYLw

Diepgroen
03-09-2017, 04:58 PM
Thanks for sharing. As a child i wachted this show in spanish.I loved the girl robot called Asajaka with the torpedo breasts. Nice to see a new blog post! Celshading 2.0 sweet

Snosrap
03-09-2017, 06:23 PM
I like the new UI aspects of this. Maybe all gradients will be featured like this.

jwiede
03-09-2017, 06:24 PM
Okay not just me. The date reads Feb 28th and I was like, "I know I've been hitting refresh at least once a day" lol.

Kind of would like to understand why it's dated Feb 28th but not actually posted until March 9th?

Snosrap
03-09-2017, 06:37 PM
Really guys?

Exclaim
03-09-2017, 06:59 PM
Kind of would like to understand why it's dated Feb 28th but not actually posted until March 9th?

Because you can write a blog in advance of actually posting it? Most bloggers will write stories in advance, and schedule them to post at a future date.

Ernest
03-10-2017, 12:52 AM
The unRealXtreme plugin let's you point all the normals of the object to a target (usually the camera) and that allows you to fix most of the dreaded "Lain/Ajin look" in one step. I really really hope the new cel shader can do that!

Asticles
03-10-2017, 02:11 AM
Yes! Amazing!

Ztreem
03-10-2017, 04:22 AM
The unRealXtreme plugin let's you point all the normals of the object to a target (usually the camera) and that allows you to fix most of the dreaded "Lain/Ajin look" in one step. I really really hope the new cel shader can do that!

I don't really know what you mean with "Lain/Ajin Look" but change the normal of a surface is really easy in the node editor, so it should hopefully be no different in the new version.

gamedesign1
03-10-2017, 04:30 AM
Really great to see another blog :)

Spinland
03-10-2017, 04:50 AM
Because you can write a blog in advance of actually posting it? Most bloggers will write stories in advance, and schedule them to post at a future date.

This.

- - - Updated - - -

Fingers crossed. I have a potential gig coming up where this new cel shader stuff would rock the house. I'll be fine with what there is now, but I can dream of an in-time (for this gig) release. ;D

Asticles
03-10-2017, 07:33 AM
I can't wait! I was unsure about NPR with the new engine but this is awesome!

This would be great for me because I'm facing on the future a lot of npr rendering. Good move Newtek!

Norka
03-10-2017, 07:41 AM
And cel shading is coming to Octane in the 3.1 cycle, so we will have all kinds options for NPR - to rock the house - as Spinland perfectly put it. In all likelihood I would use Octane's, but nice to have options nonetheless. Ye gods, some incredible stuff coming between LW and Octane! Wooohoooooo!

Schwyhart
03-10-2017, 08:09 AM
For simplicity, I'd prefer to work with LWs native renderer. I also have no interest in forking over a lot of cash for graphics cards just for use with Octane. I'm glad there are options though.

Schwyhart
03-10-2017, 08:12 AM
I was hoping for more modeler updates when LW Next was first announced, but it looks like LW Next will focus almost entirely on rendering. I'm sure it will happen with time.
Performance improvements will definitely help overall.

samurai_x
03-10-2017, 08:18 AM
http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/79/79af6b3bc5b23131ace1d835c402fa444ebd7cfc574c6b0406 65280337e74d7e.jpg
They really know how important the japanese market is for lightwave.


Not a Mazinger fan. I like Daimos better. Way cooler old school roboto good story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FRhSDN52zk

3dslider
03-10-2017, 08:29 AM
Great blog! The stuff there is better than LW 2015 who already very good too.

samurai_x
03-10-2017, 08:39 AM
The youtube video from Lino is actually Dec 2016.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P2-vMBQXfE
So this new cel shading has been in lw next they just didn't post it in the blog.
Strange they really don't know how to promote lightwave give some sneak peaks.

pinkmouse
03-10-2017, 08:44 AM
Hmm. Again, stuff that I don't really have any use for, but at least it shows some progress is being made. :)

JCG
03-10-2017, 09:01 AM
Not a Mazinger fan. I like Daimos better. Way cooler old school roboto good story.

...but... But!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yadjlomgF2Q

Norka
03-10-2017, 10:10 AM
For simplicity, I'd prefer to work with LWs native renderer. I also have no interest in forking over a lot of cash for graphics cards just for use with Octane. I'm glad there are options though.

For hobbyists, or 3D artists with very small gigs (or scant numbers of clients), there is nothing at all wrong with LW's renderer. That's great that you're able to keep it simple. :-) I personally can't imagine how waiting on painfully slow renders is simplicity, but if you ever find yourself with a desire or need to accomplish in minutes what currently takes you many hours or days in LW's renderer, you may want to look into Octane and a PC GPU workstation loaded with some 980/1080 Ti GPUs. It all pays for itself very quickly, under the right circumstances.

PS. Your site gives a 404.

CaptainMarlowe
03-10-2017, 10:21 AM
This is really great news. I also like the gradient look. Can't wait to see more !

rustythe1
03-10-2017, 10:41 AM
The youtube video from Lino is actually Dec 2016.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P2-vMBQXfE
So this new cel shading has been in lw next they just didn't post it in the blog.
Strange they really don't know how to promote lightwave give some sneak peaks.
like I said in the other thread, it was shown on FB a while back

erikals
03-10-2017, 10:52 AM
@Norka

LightWave Render is great for NPR and animations that needs tons of various customization.

I bought Octane, and love it, but the LW render still has it's place.

paulhart
03-10-2017, 11:47 AM
I have been hoping, like forever, for a solid NPR advancement for Lightwave. It is the 'bread & butter' of the Japanese market for Lightwave, and Rob visited there several years ago, (yes . . . that long ago . . .) There is great potential for NPR in animation, anime, illustration, cartoon, graphic novels, arch viz and welcome alternates to the 'make it REAL' crowd. More creative flexibility and on screen preview of the effects in real time is the 'holy grail' of artist types. Thank you for the preview, now release the !&*%#[email protected] software.

erikals
03-10-2017, 11:57 AM
it's not That long ago since he visited Japan. (2014)

i find nothing to criticize regarding Rob's LightWave connection with Japan.

rather the other way around actually. i applaud it.

robertoortiz
03-10-2017, 11:58 AM
it's not That long ago since he visited Japan.

i find nothing to criticize regarding Rob's LightWave connection with Japan.

rather the other way around actually. i applaud it.

Same here.
The more input he can get from production houses in Japan, the better is for all of us.
EDIT
I use LW NPR render ALL THE FREAKING time for work.
It would be sweet to have better integration with programs like Illustrator.
a good first step is to be able to render AS A VECTOR format like .SVG or .Ai.
I would kill to have in Lightwave more control of things like vector style gradients,
and line style and weight.

tyrot
03-10-2017, 12:03 PM
For simplicity, I'd prefer to work with LWs native renderer. I also have no interest in forking over a lot of cash for graphics cards just for use with Octane. I'm glad there are options though.

dude you are so wrong about octane ... you are actually hurting yourself :)

erikals
03-10-2017, 12:08 PM
i can see the use for the LW render for cartoons and NPR renders, or renders that need special tweaks.

hard to deny the speed of Octane though.   :)

paulhart
03-10-2017, 12:14 PM
Please take my post in the manner in which it was meant. I highly applaud and value Rob's attention to the Japanese market and their profound artistic vision. I wrote to him directly when he went, to encourage that very type of development that has been previewed. Yes, it was 'several' years ago, and no disrespect is intended on my post, but a grand Hoorah!! Now get it into my grubby little hands . . .

rustythe1
03-10-2017, 12:18 PM
it's not That long ago since he visited Japan. (2014)

i find nothing to criticize regarding Rob's LightWave connection with Japan.

rather the other way around actually. i applaud it.

I thought I read that LWG had only just got back from there,

gamedesign1
03-10-2017, 01:07 PM
The thing I would like to see is a way to control surface parameters from the Layout. At the moment you have to use NULLs in layout which you target from within the low surface parameters. But when you are using that model in multiple scenes, it not ideal to have to keep targeting that parameter to a NULL. So it would be nice to be able to do it the other way around and target surface parameters from the scene. The solution at the moment it using Global Materials which Sensei developed. But I am guessing this won't work with the new release. So I'm hoping that either Lightwave adds the functionality or that Sensei updates his plugin to work with new Lightwave :)

EDIT: By the way the reason I mentioned that here is that controlling cel shading with NULLs add great control of the final look.

tcoursey
03-10-2017, 01:19 PM
Really great to see another blog :)

Yep at this rate we should see one more by 2018's end! *shrug*

Kaptive
03-10-2017, 01:52 PM
Yep at this rate we should see one more by 2018's end! *shrug*

Do you need a hug? I think you need a hug :P

Kaptive
03-10-2017, 01:55 PM
I only knew about this via the newsletter that just came out but this blog post is posted 2/28. Lino's renders look pretty good to me.

https://blog.lightwave3d.com/2017/02/cel-shading-features/

Lino only posted up the example videos to his youtube channel 12 hours ago, so I think the blog was written on the 28th but only just submitted to coincide with the newsletter.

allabulle
03-10-2017, 02:01 PM
I have been hoping, like forever, for a solid NPR advancement for Lightwave. It is the 'bread & butter' of the Japanese market for Lightwave, and Rob visited there several years ago, (yes . . . that long ago . . .) There is great potential for NPR in animation, anime, illustration, cartoon, graphic novels, arch viz and welcome alternates to the 'make it REAL' crowd. More creative flexibility and on screen preview of the effects in real time is the 'holy grail' of artist types. Thank you for the preview, now release the !&*%#[email protected] software.

What he said.

tcoursey
03-10-2017, 02:13 PM
Do you need a hug? I think you need a hug :P

Def no hugs needed, although I appreciate it! Just the facts, simple deduction thereof. Silly how little communication has come from LW3DG and obviously things are still moving along in the background. *shrug with brows raised*

I'm still on 11.6.3 and loving it with Octane and LWCAD. Only time will tell if they have anything more for me, have looked at other products to move to because of the lack of communication but am still 100% LW bound! (at the moment).

gar26lw
03-10-2017, 02:47 PM
have looked at other products to move to because of the lack of communication but am still 100% LW bound! (at the moment).
I think everyone has. In this day and age no online communication = bad

Surrealist.
03-10-2017, 07:25 PM
Impressed again by the focus of the next release. Simple practical low hanging fruit features. Well done LW 3D Grpup

samurai_x
03-10-2017, 11:13 PM
...but... But!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yadjlomgF2Q


Living room dude beats that orchestra :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-njXcQsMrk

Asticles
03-11-2017, 04:44 AM
Let's talk about NPR.

Guys, what features should NPR engine have? It is possible we make a coherent list by consensus and send to LW3DG? or Lino?

For future releases, maybe.
For example:

1. Export render to svg

Can this forum make lists? why not add it to the first post?

Julez4001
03-11-2017, 06:13 AM
well - that made my day being i've invested alot into cel style -- my best efforts so far in cel - https://www.artstation.com/artwork/OJYLw

VOn, you may want to duplicate the specularity look of other anime. Yours seem more 3D-ish than anime.
You can use custom gradients now to control banding and strength via layer opacity.

Julez4001
03-11-2017, 06:16 AM
The thing I would like to see is a way to control surface parameters from the Layout. At the moment you have to use NULLs in layout which you target from within the low surface parameters. But when you are using that model in multiple scenes, it not ideal to have to keep targeting that parameter to a NULL. So it would be nice to be able to do it the other way around and target surface parameters from the scene. The solution at the moment it using Global Materials which Sensei developed. But I am guessing this won't work with the new release. So I'm hoping that either Lightwave adds the functionality or that Sensei updates his plugin to work with new Lightwave :)

EDIT: By the way the reason I mentioned that here is that controlling cel shading with NULLs add great control of the final look.

I just have a character prep scene with nulls parent to the character toot and do a Load From Scene which brings in all of the object parameters as well.

bazsa73
03-11-2017, 07:01 AM
Let's talk about NPR.
1. Export render to svg

+1!
I needed a few years ago vector render from 3D. The only usable solution was Maya and even Maya uses a very old code for that, Electric Rain's Swift 3D.
COmpany doesn't exist anymore. Blender has som add-on but it's not serious.
So practically there is no 2D vector render for 3D which is very strange. One would think illustrator guys would need it.

Norka
03-11-2017, 08:27 AM
+100. Yes. Having the ability to render to vector would be enormous. The thing is, making a vector render should not be terribly difficult for LW3DG. Whether it is AI, EPS, or HTML5 Canvas, they all share the same principle: create a new path, moveTo(x,y), lineTo(x,y), lineTo(x,y), lineTo(x,y)... closePath(), fill().... reapeat. Even if they had to keep it real simple and only export to an ancient version of AI (8) or early EPS, that would be fine by me, and a hell of a lot better than nothing. But if we could get a modern AI out of LW, that would be killer.

Spinland
03-11-2017, 08:49 AM
1. Export render to svg



Yes, please.

jeric_synergy
03-11-2017, 10:12 AM
+100. Yes. Having the ability to render to vector would be enormous. The thing is, making a vector render should not be terribly difficult for LW3DG. Whether it is AI, EPS, or HTML5 Canvas, they all share the same principle: create a new path, moveTo(x,y), lineTo(x,y), lineTo(x,y), lineTo(x,y)... closePath(), fill().... reapeat. Even if they had to keep it real simple and only export to an ancient version of AI (8) or early EPS, that would be fine by me, and a hell of a lot better than nothing. But if we could get a modern AI out of LW, that would be killer.

I think you seriously underestimate the difficulty of translating a bitmap render to a vector representation.

ernpchan
03-11-2017, 10:26 AM
1. Export render to svg


Hopefully the new render engine makes this an easier possibility.

For stuff like this I've used vector magic. It's given me decent results.
https://vectormagic.com

50one
03-11-2017, 10:49 AM
To transfer bitmap onto vector is seriously hard. Look at adobe illustrator and how the default tracing solution haven't really changed since introduced...

gamedesign1
03-11-2017, 11:24 AM
I just have a character prep scene with nulls parent to the character toot and do a Load From Scene which brings in all of the object parameters as well.

I thought that wouldn't work because it would be working from object IDs and importing more than one of those setups could conflict with another one.

Norka
03-11-2017, 11:33 AM
I was not talking about making vectors from bitmaps, but rather drawing vector shapes (with simple fills and/or gradients) based on the geo in front of the camera. Surely eRain did not do Swift3D vector renders by converting from bitmaps...

jeric_synergy
03-11-2017, 11:48 AM
I was not talking about making vectors from bitmaps, but rather drawing vector shapes (with simple fills and/or gradients) based on the geo in front of the camera. Surely eRain did not do Swift3D vector renders by converting from bitmaps...
It doesn't matter: LW's whole rendering model is about pixels, not vectors. Basically you're asking them to start from scratch on a renderer. Not a computer scientist, but TMK there's a serious dearth of vector output renderers-- got any examples?

(Also, from the quality of Swift3D output, I'm guessing that's exactly what they did.)

bazsa73
03-11-2017, 12:42 PM
3D data is inherently vectorial. Transferring this vector data from the 3D space onto a 2D plane is what the existing render engine already does.
So this code exists. During the perspective transformation the engine creates a set of 2D points. This is what we see in opengl in the "only vertices" mode in Layout.
The task is to convert this data into something sensible. But the basis of this data exists.
Creating fill shapes and outlines of this data must not be difficult. Gradients yes, that could be an issue but flat shaded, outlined shapes not.

bobakabob
03-11-2017, 12:47 PM
Re bitmap to vector... Not used it for ages but I used to turn bit maps into vector in Flash with the click of a button. There was a good range of parameters. I recall an action script for video, maybe it's still out there...

There is a video to vector tutorial showing a good auto rotoscoping workflow using Photoshop and Illustrator
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fK_D4dG6zAA

Good article on when to use vector and not for image sequences...
https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/image-sequences-or-vector-art-in-the-development-of-flash-games-and-virtual-worlds

paulhart
03-11-2017, 02:05 PM
NPR, yes! I believe that many of the key objectives for NPR are/will be addressed by Newtek. One that I have been wrestling with, includes some vector math and trig. I get stumped with Python scripting, since I tend more towards the artistic type generally. I would really appreciate being able to set a light source, 'real' or a null, and have the 'thickness' of the line be modulated just like I used to do in classic drawing class. Wafer thin (or not a all?) on the lit side and fuller and darker on the opposite, but within my parameter control. Along with this I would appreciate having the width/opacity of a line adjust to the relative severity of the curve of the perceived edge, such that, the long open slow curve edge will be thin/or less opaque, or both (my choice) and the tight curve and sharp change of angle would have the opposite weighting. Almost like an Occlusion Weighting. If I can get both of these to work together, plus a little 'noise' (both in the smoothness of the line, opacity, thickness, etc.) it would come very close to the hand drawn line that I tend to generate when I do pencil and/or ink drawings. This was how I was taught and is aligned with my native tendencies. Applying watercolor like treatment of the values and color with the lines being rendered over as a separate render layer give me the most choice. It shouldn't require a lot of convoluted tech head, which I can do slowly and reluctantly, but give me the artistic option. Check boxes, sliders, easy node setups, textures applied with gradient falloffs. Many of these things I have learned how to do, with effort. Make it less of an effort! I am tired of Lightwave "work arounds," that I can do more directly in other programs.

Asticles
03-11-2017, 02:37 PM
I was not talking about making vectors from bitmaps, but rather drawing vector shapes (with simple fills and/or gradients) based on the geo in front of the camera. Surely eRain did not do Swift3D vector renders by converting from bitmaps...

Yes, this is what blender freestyle does?

https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/dev/render/freestyle/export_svg.html

Maybe the info from the NPR shader can be directly exported to svg from Lightwave to get an approximation.

meatycheesyboy
03-11-2017, 03:14 PM
Hey guys, just wanted to chime in on the whole render to vector thing with a very limited solution I have used in the past. I've needed orthographic renders of things in vector at specific angles before. The way I accomplished it was to create my object in Modeler, deform it in Layout, save transformed, bring it back into Modeler then use the UV map EPS saver. It'll get you vector wireframes for the object that you can then take into Illustrator to resize, recolor, etc. This solution is very limiting obviously since you can only do orthographic projection and you can't do animations. In addition the resulting vector needs a lot of clean up since the backfaces are rendered but it's a workaround that some people might find useful in very particular situations that I have successfully used in the past.

erikals
03-11-2017, 03:45 PM
talking NPR... inspiration >


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txXlmPZ3cG4

gamedesign1
03-11-2017, 04:17 PM
I really really don't mean this to sound negative, but what is this blog showing that LW couldn't do before?

wingzeta
03-11-2017, 04:40 PM
Don't know if anyone mentioned this already for svg export, but I stumbled upon it from a link erikals posted in another thread:

simple svg export plugin.

http://www.splotchdog.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=55:cuv&catid=11:lightwaveplugins&Itemid=161

Might be worth a try.

erikals
03-11-2017, 05:18 PM
I really really don't mean this to sound negative, but what is this blog showing that LW couldn't do before?

not much, but faster better renders, more options, and stacking etc...

so, lot's beneath the surface in this version, as it's a part rewrite.

gamedesign1
03-11-2017, 05:30 PM
not much, but faster better renders, more options, and stacking etc...

so, lot's beneath the surface in this version, as it's a part rewrite.

Yeah I know generally what is going to be better, i meant specifically in this latest blog post

samurai_x
03-11-2017, 07:43 PM
Yeah I know generally what is going to be better, i meant specifically in this latest blog post

For me

Another nice feature found in the next LightWave release that will be valuable for anyone using LightWave for real-time production and design is that Cel Shading is now available in OpenGL. The Cel Shaded effect now shown in real-time is not simply an aproximation but it is indeed an accurate representation of what you will see in the final rendering. It includes both diffuse and specular shading and takes into account light intensity, position, and rotation. Light exclusions and per light specular/diffuse toggles for objects are also considered and previewed now in OpenGL which allows for very rapid feedback when going through the iterations and discovery process necessary for design, and makes shading a truly real time experience.

CaptainMarlowe
03-12-2017, 12:43 AM
For me

Another nice feature found in the next LightWave release that will be valuable for anyone using LightWave for real-time production and design is that Cel Shading is now available in OpenGL. The Cel Shaded effect now shown in real-time is not simply an aproximation but it is indeed an accurate representation of what you will see in the final rendering. It includes both diffuse and specular shading and takes into account light intensity, position, and rotation. Light exclusions and per light specular/diffuse toggles for objects are also considered and previewed now in OpenGL which allows for very rapid feedback when going through the iterations and discovery process necessary for design, and makes shading a truly real time experience.

QFA + the fact that considering it's a brand new renderer, PBR oriented, there was a risk, although improbable, that NPR would be left behind. This blog post shows the proof NPR has not been neglected and also adds some welcome workflow improvements, as stated by Samurai_x. There is also the global settings for edges that may accelerate the workflow. So maybe everything they showed was possible before, but if it is now quicker and easier, that's really good news.
Unfortunaltely, in this forum, whatever LW3DG do, people are never happy. When they go silent, people cry for information, when they do show some nuggets, people just go "nothing new here, it existed before" or "that won't be enough" or "it's not what I want" or "Well it exists elsewhere" or "whatever you do, I have decided once and for all that I'll criticise everything for the sake of it". No wonder almost all the activity of lightwaves has moved to FaceBook.

erikals
03-12-2017, 12:48 AM
QFA + the fact that considering it's a brand new renderer, PBR oriented, there was a risk, although improbable, that NPR would be left behind. This blog post shows the proof NPR has not been neglected and also adds some welcome workflow improvements, as stated by Samurai_x. There is also the global settings for edges that may accelerate the workflow. So maybe everything they showed was possible before, but if it is now quicker and easier, that's really good news.

very true.

robertoortiz
03-12-2017, 06:31 AM
Re bitmap to vector... Not used it for ages but I used to turn bit maps into vector in Flash with the click of a button. There was a good range of parameters. I recall an action script for video, maybe it's still out there...

I use this feature all the time in illustrator.
The issues in honestly one of volume and quality control.
I can vectorize a single lw drawing with no problem and add all the illustration effect I want, buit
a 300 frame animation sequence is another story.

And having a cevtor output would help in the 2D Animation Market with vector based 2D Programs like Harmony..


Oh yes I also believe that Lw would benefit from "stealing" some of the spline drawing tools from programs like Illustrator.
They are honestly awesome.

Asticles
03-12-2017, 06:59 AM
This NPR improvement will be a really good thing also for Motion graphics, where you need to preview really fast the final effect. It would be great to have more tools for procedural modeling in lightwave (in another thread maybe).

Talking about feautes, It would also be good to have a library of styles that can be easily applied to entire scene. Like Blueprint, Architectural, Anime, etc. Of course fully customizable and tweakable.

gamedesign1
03-12-2017, 12:03 PM
For me

Another nice feature found in the next LightWave release that will be valuable for anyone using LightWave for real-time production and design is that Cel Shading is now available in OpenGL. The Cel Shaded effect now shown in real-time is not simply an aproximation but it is indeed an accurate representation of what you will see in the final rendering. It includes both diffuse and specular shading and takes into account light intensity, position, and rotation. Light exclusions and per light specular/diffuse toggles for objects are also considered and previewed now in OpenGL which allows for very rapid feedback when going through the iterations and discovery process necessary for design, and makes shading a truly real time experience.

Yeah that is one thing I noticed is the realtime aspect of it in opengl, but VPR with cel shading is almost realtime anyway, so wasn't sure how much more of a benefit that will be. Still an improvement though, actual realtime is always nicer to use of course :)

gamedesign1
03-12-2017, 12:08 PM
QFA + the fact that considering it's a brand new renderer, PBR oriented, there was a risk, although improbable, that NPR would be left behind. This blog post shows the proof NPR has not been neglected and also adds some welcome workflow improvements, as stated by Samurai_x. There is also the global settings for edges that may accelerate the workflow. So maybe everything they showed was possible before, but if it is now quicker and easier, that's really good news.
Unfortunaltely, in this forum, whatever LW3DG do, people are never happy. When they go silent, people cry for information, when they do show some nuggets, people just go "nothing new here, it existed before" or "that won't be enough" or "it's not what I want" or "Well it exists elsewhere" or "whatever you do, I have decided once and for all that I'll criticise everything for the sake of it". No wonder almost all the activity of lightwaves has moved to FaceBook.

As I put in my post I was not being negative I just wanted to see if others could show me something in the post that maybe I was missing. There is a lot of negativity in this forum I agree, but its not really coming from me. My question was not sarcastic as I was trying to point out that LightWave Next had nothing new. Unfortunately when reading text on a page you can put all kinds of different tones to it by how you read it. But no, I was not being negative.

It is definitely good to see they are not neglecting NPR in future releases :)

jasonwestmas
03-12-2017, 12:12 PM
not much, but faster better renders, more options, and stacking etc...

so, lot's beneath the surface in this version, as it's a part rewrite.

yeah I think some where wondering if cell shading was still going to be supported with the new render engine and this was the answer.

jasonwestmas
03-12-2017, 12:18 PM
For me

Another nice feature found in the next LightWave release that will be valuable for anyone using LightWave for real-time production and design is that Cel Shading is now available in OpenGL. The Cel Shaded effect now shown in real-time is not simply an aproximation but it is indeed an accurate representation of what you will see in the final rendering. It includes both diffuse and specular shading and takes into account light intensity, position, and rotation. Light exclusions and per light specular/diffuse toggles for objects are also considered and previewed now in OpenGL which allows for very rapid feedback when going through the iterations and discovery process necessary for design, and makes shading a truly real time experience.

Indeed a really nice feature for stylized work.

allabulle
03-12-2017, 12:20 PM
yeah I think some where wondering if cell shading was still going to be supported with the new render engine and this was the answer.

I was one of them and I feel reassured. It seems it's even going to be improved. Sweet!

CaptainMarlowe
03-12-2017, 01:45 PM
As I put in my post I was not being negative I just wanted to see if others could show me something in the post that maybe I was missing. There is a lot of negativity in this forum I agree, but its not really coming from me. My question was not sarcastic as I was trying to point out that LightWave Next had nothing new. Unfortunately when reading text on a page you can put all kinds of different tones to it by how you read it. But no, I was not being negative.

It is definitely good to see they are not neglecting NPR in future releases :)

You were not the first person I had in mind, even if Samurai_X was answering your question, which was, I believe, genuine. But I have been slightly upset these days with the same people being negative about LW3DG silence, being as negative each time an info is given. So sorry if I hurt you, my remark was general and not directly pointed at you.

Paul.

gamedesign1
03-12-2017, 04:01 PM
You were not the first person I had in mind, even if Samurai_X was answering your question, which was, I believe, genuine. But I have been slightly upset these days with the same people being negative about LW3DG silence, being as negative each time an info is given. So sorry if I hurt you, my remark was general and not directly pointed at you.

Paul.

Thanks, no worries. I do agree that people are quite negative sometimes. People really want to see LightWave improve and get frustrated at silence. I'm guilty of being impatient in the past, but there is no need to be negative. Really looking forward to seeing the new improvements though, like the PBR and volumetrics :)

CaptainMarlowe
03-13-2017, 12:04 AM
Same here. PBR and volumetrics alone would justify the upgrade for me, and if you add the modeler camera sync, the modifier stack, the UGE and FiberFx improvements and now the NPR confirmed, well, it's more than enough for me - but I understand other people can think otherwise. As eberybody, I am impatient, especially with regard to PBR. As for modeler, I'm mainly a low/mid poly guy and rely on 3D-coat for sculpting, so even if I agree with most of the crtitics made towards modeler, I am comfortable with it and it gets easily the job done, so I can wait a bit before, fingers crossed, full unification.

Back to the blog post, I find the gradient new Look an improvement too.

gamedesign1
03-13-2017, 03:51 AM
Same here. PBR and volumetrics alone would justify the upgrade for me, and if you add the modeler camera sync, the modifier stack, the UGE and FiberFx improvements and now the NPR confirmed, well, it's more than enough for me - but I understand other people can think otherwise. As eberybody, I am impatient, especially with regard to PBR. As for modeler, I'm mainly a low/mid poly guy and rely on 3D-coat for sculpting, so even if I agree with most of the crtitics made towards modeler, I am comfortable with it and it gets easily the job done, so I can wait a bit before, fingers crossed, full unification.

Back to the blog post, I find the gradient new Look an improvement too.

Yeah totally, forgot about new FiberFX :) I'm interested to know how much of what they are showing is going to be in the next release. Yeah the gradient does look like a great improvement. I like seeing interface updates :)

safetyman
03-13-2017, 05:10 AM
Vector output is the main reason why I don't use LW that much anymore, just an occasional beauty render. My work involves 99% vector output so I had to find another program that outputs vectors natively, since LW doesn't. Native vector output would be high on my list of features that LW needs to implement or I won't care how many modeling tools they add to Layout.

jeric_synergy
03-13-2017, 10:43 AM
My work involves 99% vector output so I had to find another program that outputs vectors natively, .....
You tease!

Sensei
03-13-2017, 01:41 PM
Vector output is the main reason why I don't use LW that much anymore, just an occasional beauty render. My work involves 99% vector output so I had to find another program that outputs vectors natively, since LW doesn't.

About what vector output you're talking about.. ?

If somebody wants to extract f.e. World Position,
can use Global Materials http://globalmaterials.trueart.eu
spread it to the all objects, the all surfaces.
And then open global Node Editor, and use Spot Info > World Position,
and plug it to Diffuse in Make Material node, and output from it to the main global material..

And you have XYZ position of every pixel on the render..

If something is calculated, and exposed by LWSDK, the most likely there is already node which outputs it in Node Editor,
where it can be used for whatever user wants..
If it's not exposed, then you can pay for writing custom node, which will expose it.

Ernest
03-13-2017, 02:49 PM
About what vector output you're talking about.. ?

I think he's talking about CorelDraw/Adobe Illustrator/Inkscape type of output.

jeric_synergy
03-13-2017, 03:41 PM
Getting an EFFICIENT vector representation is the difficult part, I'd guess: having a vector node at every pixel is not so good.

safetyman
03-14-2017, 01:39 PM
I think he's talking about CorelDraw/Adobe Illustrator/Inkscape type of output. Yes.

Since I use Illustrator extensively at work I needed a way to get vectors out of LW easily without having to autotrace. I never could find a solution until I used !surprise!, Blender, which has native svg output and a few free addons that work very well. I still have to manually color the result in Illy, but there's almost no cleanup and no autotracing needed.

Back to the topic... sorry.

hypersuperduper
03-14-2017, 02:07 PM
Yes.

Since I use Illustrator extensively at work I needed a way to get vectors out of LW easily without having to autotrace. I never could find a solution until I used !surprise!, Blender, which has native svg output and a few free addons that work very well. I still have to manually color the result in Illy, but there's almost no cleanup and no autotracing needed.

Back to the topic... sorry.

Modeler eps export? Does blender's SVG export work significantly better?

Ztreem
03-14-2017, 04:20 PM
Modeler eps export? Does blender's SVG export work significantly better?

It supports much more than modelers simple export. For example perspective views and even animation. C4D also have much better vector import/ export than LW. Rhino is also really good for working with vector import/export.

gamedesign1
03-14-2017, 07:07 PM
I think safetyman is talking about rendered vectors from a camera view and not just geometry vectors. Ofcourse I might be wrong :p

robertoortiz
03-14-2017, 09:46 PM
I think safetyman is talking about rendered vectors from a camera view and not just geometry vectors. Ofcourse I might be wrong :p
He is talking rendered export. I have the same issue at work

paulhart
03-14-2017, 10:17 PM
So, ... no one 'thumbs-up" my requests for NPR, nor added any ideas, nor contributed to the 'list' except, for the multi-post wandering into 'vector land.' Yes, vector output is useful, and Blender does do this as an off shoot of the Freestyle function, but currently it is a Post Render function, and it is a little slow. I did a simple animation test, rendering out various color layers, Freestyle lines work, and Vector line output from the render window. Works fine, just slow, and not on-screen, realtime. The hope is that it is going to work better with version 2.8 Viewport re-factoring, which is expected to work better for NPR, but, like Lightwave, it is a wait and see. Since Lightwave is working on real-time, on-screen, my hopes are on them releasing before the Blender 2.8. Now, back to the list creation for NPR, un-related to vector (which is way to mechanical looking to really be NPR most of the time) I want hand drawn looking lines with all of the subtly to be convincing, and work on the render choices for watercolor, and if vectors are even in the discussion, it should be the movement vectors that Disney used on making the animation of Paperman (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xzt3vb_paperman_shortfilms), applied to the hand-drawn style.

jeric_synergy
03-14-2017, 10:33 PM
paulhart,
1) excellent rant! :D
2) I assume you are familiar with the "Dr. Seuss" shader techniques developed, IIRC, by William Vaughn & associates & colleagues at The DAVE School? They did some very interesting line techniques in that. Googling "lightwave dr. seuss shader" should get you right there, and other interesting places.

samurai_x
03-14-2017, 11:54 PM
Vector graphic output is kind of low on the must have for most 3d appz.

jeric_synergy
03-15-2017, 02:03 AM
Vector graphic output is kind of low on the must have for most 3d appz.
Yup. Total buffer availability is a LOT higher.

Ztreem
03-15-2017, 02:17 AM
Vector graphic output is kind of low on the must have for most 3d appz.

I agree. There is so much other things LW should fix first, but it all depends of what you do. If vector output is all you do and love working in LW then I can understand that vector output is your no.1 feature on the list. I don't think this is the typical LW user, so I imagine this feature is at the end of LWG long list of things to to.

PS. and as always if this is something you need now, there is surely some software that does this a million times better.

robertoortiz
03-15-2017, 07:10 AM
NPR, yes! I believe that many of the key objectives for NPR are/will be addressed by Newtek. .....

I organized Paul's ideas into a list format. He has some fantastic ideas.

Applying watercolor like treatment of the values and color
with the lines being rendered over as a separate render layer give me the most choice.

set a light source, 'real' or a null, and have the 'thickness' of the line be modulated
set a light source, 'real' or a null, and have the 'thickness' of the line be modulated just like I used to do in classic drawing class

width/opacity of a line
width/opacity of a line adjust to the relative severity of the curve of the perceived edge, such that, the long open slow curve edge will be thin/or less opaque, or both (my choice) and the tight curve and sharp change of angle would have the opposite weighting. Almost like an Occlusion Weighting.

50one
03-15-2017, 07:51 AM
Given the Lightwave heritage I think LWG should focus on vfx since at that price range there's no real competitor, Modo is treated lime redheaded step child by the Foundry and I can't really see anything happening in the near future in their camp.

Make LW work closely with Fusion, not just v4 of the scene importer there and we're jammin'!

Ztreem
03-15-2017, 09:30 AM
set a light source, 'real' or a null, and have the 'thickness' of the line be modulated
set a light source, 'real' or a null, and have the 'thickness' of the line be modulated just like I used to do in classic drawing class



Something like this?
136285

ianr
03-15-2017, 10:42 AM
Given the Lightwave heritage I think LWG should focus on vfx since at that price range there's no real competitor, Modo is treated lime redheaded step child by the Foundry and I can't really see anything happening in the near future in their camp.

Make LW work closely with Fusion, not just v4 of the scene importer there and we're jammin'!



Yeph. Fusion 2.5 D sets with LW rendered Mesh textures is a winner.

samurai_x
03-15-2017, 11:32 AM
Modo is treated lime redheaded step child by the Foundry and I can't really see anything happening in the near future in their camp.

What did you hear? Is Foundry being sold again?
One of the long time modo dev that makes the training and documentation left just recently.
Only Allen and Stuart are left from the original team. I wouldn't be surprised if they leave in two years. Did Brad see signs?

hrgiger
03-15-2017, 12:01 PM
One of the long time modo dev that makes the training and documentation left just recently.
Only Allen and Stuart are left from the original team. I wouldn't be surprised if they leave in two years.

No, Arnie Cachelin, Matt Craig, and Greg Duquesne are still there. James Darknell left recently for a job with Facebook or some other big tech firm, don't know which one, probably a better opportunity for him. I'm pretty sure 50one was referring to modo in regards to vfx development. It was already said by one of the Foundry guys that Modo 11 might have a large focus on Animation and performance.

robertoortiz
03-16-2017, 09:14 AM
Something like this?
136285

Cool, now add a simple interface in Layout to get the same result and we got a winner.
The problem with the nodal solution for that issue is that you are asking to build a car engine every time you want to drive a car.

jeric_synergy
03-16-2017, 10:01 AM
The problem with the nodal solution for that issue is that you are asking to build a car engine every time you want to drive a car.
#aflw, but if you are talking about a network, why not just SAVE it?

hypersuperduper
03-16-2017, 11:05 AM
The nodal system is just better. It's not like building an engine to drive a car. It's like learning how to drive a car to drive a car. The next lightwave looks to be consolidating the nodal setups at least to a degree. Which should reduce double work.

paulhart
03-16-2017, 03:01 PM
Ztreem, Thank you for a least being on topic and the suggestion. I am also well aware of the Seuss/Shader strategies and have tried them and others in my quest for the artistic line and shading combination. I can get fairly close with post processing, but the directionality influenced quality of the line is the challenge. Your idea attempts to address this, but note that it doesn't really modulate from a light source/null properly as it is more of a Distance from Object function. I have created convoluted node tree "work-arounds," which get slower and more complicated, the closer I get to the target idea.
RobertOrtiz was kind enough to summarize my thoughts into list format, which, oddly, is the actual topic of this thread, "NPR-shading-in-the-Next..." If anybody hasn't viewed Paperman and some of the best Japanese animation, you are missing the target. I went through a phase of fine line drawings using a Rapidograph pen, uniform no matter what, mechanical, and ultimately boring like technical drawings they were designed for, and went back to nuanced, flowing, variable hand drawn lines, thick and thin, faint on the lit side and fuller on the away side, fattening up in the Occlusion areas. Immediately more interesting, think Rembrandt or Van Gogh like reed pen liveliness. There is a reason that Hayao Miyasaki and Sylvain Chomet persist in hand drawn cels, combined with 3D rendered elements. It is where the life of a drawing lives, not is the dull, uniform. NPR is about wanting to generate life like hand drawn animation and illustrations, without having to "hand draw" a couple of hundred thousand images. I just can't be that consistent, or patient enough, I have tried, so 3D rendering to get close to this ideal is my goal. NPR, Non-Photorealistic Rendering.
I swear, derailed threads are wearing thin, 'spin off' a new one if a topic is worthy . . . "Vectors." I might have as well said, "SQUIRREL!!" for the distract-ability and topic adverse responses spiraling off into oblivion. (SQUIRREL!!) Okay, try again, the topic is NPR and trying to generate a list of key qualities that would be wanted in Lightwave Next. Newtek staff may actually pay attention if our content is useful. ;->)

jeric_synergy
03-16-2017, 04:43 PM
paulhart, what limitations in the Seuss approach did you feel held you back?

paulhart
03-18-2017, 11:29 AM
jeric_synergy, Hello...
Don't misunderstand my intentions, I value the Seuss approach, particularly for a graphic novel kind of look. Very strong and reads well, and yes, I have used it selectively.
I started to just post some examples of what I want to achieve, did a Google search, and found four 'old' threads on the subject, one of which I started and three I participated in all vintage several years ago, and nothing has changed. I went back into some of my simple test files to see if I could now generate the lines I want, and no amount of node tree wrangling was able to create the look??!! This includes a full Lightwave crash every half hour or so, for no particular reason, other than a complex node noodle tree and trying to see the effect of changes in a VPR window. After a couple of hours of no success, I gave up for that day. As stated in this thread and previous ones, I am wanting to create a "hand-drawn" line, which is thinner/lighter on the lit side of all objects and thicker/darker on the 'away' side. It should also be distance/depth variant, lighter/thinner in the distance. I also am trying to couple this with a variable line quality which varies to darker/thicker in the occlusion areas or areas of more tight acute curves. Some of this I can do in Blender!!, but it is a Post Process line, (not on-screen VPR yet) so development gets even slower, making changes, waiting for the render, repeat. Being able to add a Noise channel for somewhat more lively line quality. Overlay this line rendered version in multiply mode, (matte white materials) on top of a color rendered layer which is treated to look more like water color, strengthened with an Occlusion render with slight cross-hatched texture (which I have done successfully and posted in the prior mentioned threads. I recommend anybody to look at the rendering of Hayao Miyazaki (Spirited Away) and Sylvan Chomet (Les Triplettes de Belleville, The Illusionist), Paprika by Satoshi Kon, Your Name, by Makoto Shinkai, and Tekkonkinkreet by Studio 4C. All excellent examples of lively line in combination with more hand colored textural layers. As an example, here is an illustration by Jason Brubaker from his reMIND book, which I own as inspiration. While I personally find some of his story lines drift theologically for me (Sithrah), his drawings and page layout is totally stunning and excellent. Highly recommend the reMIND book, which you can view online, and also the Sithrah series. He inks up with a Pentel Brush Pen after pencil layout, then builds watercolor flats and fills. Absolutely great stuff and a sincere inspiration for a line rendering style development. If I ever come up with an approximation I will gladly post it.
http://www.remindblog.com/custom/remind-spread-4/
136307

Julez4001
03-18-2017, 02:55 PM
Cool, now add a simple interface in Layout to get the same result and we got a winner.
The problem with the nodal solution for that issue is that you are asking to build a car engine every time you want to drive a car.

Ummm...Load From Scene file will take care of that.

paulhart
03-18-2017, 07:45 PM
Here is a preliminary example, with test objects, generated in Blender. I created the objects, colored them, setup a LayerRender Node tree which Output, Diffuse, AO, Shade, Color, Line, and Combined, plus the Vector SVG. These were then composited together. While it fulfills some of the challenges, it misses others. Freestyle line has some great controls, but it doesn't do Intersections well currently, so the over-lapping pipes are an example of where it did not work as needed. It doesn't necessarily follow all of the expectations, but it was fairly easy to get to and the parameters are fairly clear. It is a Post-Process approach, so I tweak, render, adjust, render. Anyway, for simple shapes, no texture or surface adjustments, it works. A little too much Noise on the Lines, not enough Variability due to Light and Distance. It seems like it should be doable, but time and attention with this strategy tends to wear thin.
136308

jeric_synergy
03-19-2017, 01:11 AM
Ummm...Load From Scene file will take care of that.

Yes, and again robertoortiz are you referring, since it was ambgious, to the labor of constructing a node network?? Because you CAN save/load them. Nobody seems to talk about it much.

magiclight
03-20-2017, 05:05 AM
When it comes to NPR/Cel shading I think Cinema 4D got it correct, the Sketch & Toon tools in there are pretty amazing, there are few things you cannot do with it, you can have multiple layers of edges, for example a sketch layer being visible and then ink lines on top of that, offset lines beside the true position, you can "overshoot" lines just like a quick sketch, line width and distorsion can all be controlled in many different ways, transparency, color and pretty much everything else, on top of that are a number of different shaders (cel shading, art shader and so on) the only downsides with it is price and the line rendering can be a bit slow.

paulhart
03-20-2017, 09:50 AM
magiclight, Hello...
I agree in many ways about Sketch & Toon. I even asked if it could be ported over several years ago. I got a "not likely" back as a response. It is a fine example of an artist friendly software tools for developing hand drawn lines and cel shading looks more easily. I can only hope and dream.

jeric_synergy
03-20-2017, 08:28 PM
FWIW, I think you could output FBX animated (?) files from LW to c4d, and then use etc etc.

I've never even looked at S&T , yet, although I have c4d: that there's a big ocean to navigate.

rustythe1
03-27-2017, 04:51 PM
more videos on FB showing behind the scenes stuff of the cell shader,

jwiede
03-27-2017, 07:03 PM
more videos on FB showing behind the scenes stuff of the cell shader,

Don't suppose you have a URL for those?

Vong
03-27-2017, 08:00 PM
Here's the URL for the BTS that Lino posted today.... https://youtu.be/lTTcyqecdcM

Then there's the video for which the BTS belongs.... https://youtu.be/VKdsPs2aZPc

Schwyhart
03-27-2017, 09:21 PM
That's so cool

vncnt
03-27-2017, 10:04 PM
Here's the URL for the BTS that Lino posted today.... https://youtu.be/lTTcyqecdcM

What is that compositing interface at the end?

wingzeta
03-27-2017, 10:23 PM
What is that compositing interface at the end?

After Effects

AndyUno1
03-27-2017, 10:56 PM
That was fantastic!! I would love to learn how to do that kind of work in Lightwave. I love that style.

3rd Powers
03-27-2017, 11:28 PM
Yeah we have definitely received Lino’s great Anime power!