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samurai_x
03-09-2017, 06:50 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSbxfYF7rIY

One of the most powerful, yet extremely questionable UX designed app, could be better used with Bfoartist.
Time to find out. :D

Surrealist.
03-09-2017, 08:45 AM
Good things and bad things. Of course. Typical of people who don't understand actually using the software they are trying to change. Nor really fully understanding the users. If you can believe it, official Blender development suffers frome the same thing. So this is just the same problem approached from a new anngle. In the original thread where he first proposed this I was not at all impresses with his logic.

On the original website for this project he had artwork with a baby playing with toys in a baby room. The wall paper was decorated with clear images of male genitals. I am not making this up. And he was proposing this as a splash screen.

allabulle
03-09-2017, 08:48 AM
Very interesting. Thanks for the link.

Edit: oh, no Linux version yet.

allabulle
03-09-2017, 08:50 AM
Good things and bad things. Of course. Typical of people who don't understand actually using the software they are trying to change. Nor really fully understanding the users. If you can believe it, official Blender development suffers frome the same thing. So this is just the same problem approached from a new anngle.

Can you elaborate your point a bit more? I'm interested in your take on this.

Surrealist.
03-09-2017, 09:24 AM
Can you elaborate your point a bit more? I'm interested in your take on this.

Well I participated in a thread for Blender 101. Some kid came to the thread and tried to make some points. I thought his logic was typical of a kid new to 3D. And completely ignorant of Blender. I saw no real importance in giving the kid a bad time. So I ignored. Then later in the thread someone gave me a bad time about ignoring his explanations-which were wong- and so I looked back at his peofile and realized he was a developer. Lol!

Lost all faith in Blender dev. At that point. Not just because a kid can wotk in development. That is great. It is the lack of focus and decision making as far as who to listen to and take seriously on high level software design decisions.

allabulle
03-09-2017, 09:34 AM
I see. Yes, some decisions they make are a bit strange, I agree. Still, I think this is common to most software applications with varying degrees.

Thanks Richard.

Surrealist.
03-09-2017, 09:48 AM
And the interface debacle a few years ago is another example. No focus. No ability to aasign importances and priority. Andrew had other motives. And no one could see this. Yet it was obvious. Like the guy who made the LightWalve is dead video. He is interested in only one thing. Subscibers.

Specific examples of this on a high level. The close dialog. Argued for years. We finally get one. So that you don' t loose work by closing. Very simple request. But when we do get one, does it have an option to save?. Nope. At least not by default. Not sure if you can chang that. But the point is a complete diaconnect with what the user actually needs.

Google summer pf code. Horribly managed just like most of Blender development. Not sure of the restrictions but seems to me it would be better to offer projects that actually dovetail with curreent dev. Instead students pick projects that can not be fully finished and they are left half done. Retarget tools is a perfect example. Made it to branch but there it sits. No furlther dev. And it is only barelu useful. Wasted opertunity each year.

djwaterman
03-09-2017, 10:25 AM
It's interesting and I'm downloading it now, although I've become quite accustomed to the vanilla Blender UI over the last few weeks, I may not want to unlearn yet again. So this is essentially a UI re-fit of Blender with all the same functions and features?
Playing with it a bit, it's definitely a cleaner feel, some hot keys that were useful don't work, I don't know if they've been replaced with others, for example it was nice to hit TAB to swap in and out of edit mode, and now I have to go down and click those buttons manually, likewise E for extrude doesn't work and I have to choose that function manually as well, but I should probably check the manual before making these complaints.

prometheus
03-09-2017, 10:37 AM
First impression when looking at the vid...it looks better, though I need to download, install and try it for real before I can judge properly.
I did notice that there is a check box for the annoying floater in your eye 3d cursor now, so that is something I will use and uncheck...Finally, if I by any chance would find it useful, just check it back..way to go.

Michael

prometheus
03-09-2017, 10:40 AM
I for example it was nice to hit TAB to swap in and out of edit mode, and now I have to go down and click those buttons manually, likewise E for extrude doesn't work and I have to choose that function manually as well, but I should probably check the manual before making these complaints.

Yep..I would work a lot with E when using skin modifier and extending polylines etc, and I would also use tab, so if you find out they are mapped differently..please notify thanks.

djwaterman
03-09-2017, 10:51 AM
Press 1 or 2 to swap in and out of edit mode. Hit 'S' to extrude instead of 'E'. Most of the other hotkeys seem to be the same.

djwaterman
03-09-2017, 11:03 AM
Yeah, if I didn't have to teach Blender using all the default settings I would probably start using this, but it's just going to screw with me now if I start adopting these variant keyboard shortcuts and layout changes.

Danner
03-09-2017, 11:32 AM
The developers have made workflow improvements a priority for the next release so I'm hopeful. https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:2.8/

bazsa73
03-09-2017, 12:20 PM
The developers have made workflow improvements a priority for the next release so I'm hopeful. https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:2.8/

Feels like Blender gets more attention than the Big Ones.

3dslider
03-09-2017, 03:03 PM
Cool for this ! UI is somewhat sexy thank at author to bright it :)

Yeah, my dev is pretty slow but good direction, I promise after cycles for lightwave I will create two 3D software (serious? yeah i mean serious :)) in my TODO (last time I drop for porting applessed) one for Blender fork (it will bright new tool) and one for clone Softimage (it will be create from scratch) ! (they are all planning and study for design by time).

Back on my work and see you later.

erikals
03-09-2017, 03:21 PM
On the original website for this project he had artwork with a baby playing with toys in a baby room. The wall paper was decorated with clear images of male genitals. I am not making this up. And he was proposing this as a splash screen.

certainly a WTF moment.

allabulle
03-09-2017, 09:08 PM
This thread is getting weirder rapidly.

erikals
03-10-2017, 12:08 AM
i just don't like it when a developer behaves like a nut-ball.
found the image Surrealist referred to. quite disturbing.

i could've linked it here, but it's simply too disturbing.

threw me off the project like a cannonball

djwaterman
03-10-2017, 12:14 AM
Do share.

djwaterman
03-10-2017, 01:06 AM
I've been playing with it a bit more today, I'd definitely be using this if I didn't have to be schooling students in the normal Blender ways, this UI really feels professional, navigation is superior, it's quite a pleasure to work with, the full stop key now toggles between camera and User Perspective (Numeric pad 5 toggles orthographic on and off) and the Ins (0) key centers the selected object in the view port. Enough with the lessons, go try for yourselves, it's just Blender with a streamlined UI, the usual things that turn off new users have been removed.

TheLexx
03-10-2017, 02:09 AM
i could've linked it here, but it's simply too disturbing.Please don't read too much into this, but I'd really like to see it, just for the off-the-scale surreal factor. If anyone is up to it, please do link.

Marander
03-10-2017, 03:10 AM
Please don't read too much into this, but I'd really like to see it, just for the off-the-scale surreal factor. If anyone is up to it, please do link.

Here's the image and a lengthy explanation:

http://www.reinerstilesets.de/stills/iamright.jpg

Still a weird behavior in my opinion to select such an image for a splash screen (even to create it in the first place, and besides the horrible wall motive I find it an ugly render).

Edit: Nevertheless it's an interesting project and hopefully continued. The Blender Devs should get inspired by the ui design.

TheLexx
03-10-2017, 03:22 AM
@ Marander, I had just found it when you posted, but many thanks to you for that. Odd one, like some sort of humour misfire.

I sometimes get put off if too much individual personality goes into a product. It reminds me a little bit of (from the world of lenses) the name Dog Schidt Optics (http://www.newsshooter.com/2015/02/20/in-conversation-with-dog-schidt-optics-an-old-world-alternative-to-modern-lenses/) which I think also put off some people (though I think they may have changed name since).

djwaterman
03-10-2017, 05:38 AM
What was far worse and way more offensive than his quirky image (actually it's not anymore offensive than the closing credits of Superbad) was the public slander that followed, false and careless accusations of pedophilia that get connected to a name online forever when people do a name search, the damage it can do to a reputation and future employment is too horrible to think about.

erikals
03-10-2017, 06:57 AM
might be a coincidence.
might be just terribly bad humor.
might be that his brain was sleeping,

but it's still totally mentally retarded to do something like that.

-------

+ penis on the wall
+ counting hash marks next to penis
+ baby crying

was it difficult for him to understand that this "math" might seem disturbing?


i don't think / hope not, he is a bad guy. but he is certainly not socially intelligent.

Asticles
03-10-2017, 07:37 AM
Yes, this wasn't his smarter move... but it is true that on Blenderartists there are so much fanboys and trolls.

Asticles
03-10-2017, 07:44 AM
I think the concept of visual interface is interesting for newcomers. Like Nvil and Rocket3f.
Personally I don't understand why people who works with the horrible 3dmax interface finds blender's difficult, but it's true that Blender is oriented to shortcuts.

erikals
03-10-2017, 07:51 AM
Max people i have talked to have usually been using Max only all along.
very few have voluntarily jumped from App-X to 3DsMax.

there are some though, would be interesting to see a chart.

"LW" Gregg went to Max >
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?64156-Lightwave-9-2-new-features-demos&p=1495136&viewfull=1#post1495136

TheLexx
03-10-2017, 08:19 AM
And that looks like an extra mattress on top of the chest of draws with a desklamp pointed strategically down at it. Very dark. I do agree with djwaterman that unfair accusations can really damage a person, but one should try and be diplomatic, especially when communicating with a worldwide audience of strangers. Ironically, I find it creates more motivation to tackle the actual Blender interface.

samurai_x
03-10-2017, 08:34 AM
I think the concept of visual interface is interesting for newcomers. Like Nvil and Rocket3f.
Personally I don't understand why people who works with the horrible 3dmax interface finds blender's difficult, but it's true that Blender is oriented to shortcuts.

As a max user I do find similarities with blender interface. Those little icons that separate each "function" in blender is very similar to max.
What I find horrendous in blender is when you're using the mouse to "interface" with blender. Which is more important the the skin UI.

I think whoever developed blender UX early on had a MISSING INDEX FINGER.

Who in their right mind would use RMB as THE selection method on the viewport when the index finger is a humans most dominant finger.
I think the dev want's to give the middle finger to every blender user secretly. :D

When you select in the outliner its LMB. When you do modelling operations you activate it with LMB. When you do box or brush selection its C+LMB. Etc, etc.The basic interaction is so inconsistent and has been discussed many times over the years. Switching to LMB in blender breaks some stuff that people just accept to use blender as RMB.

I think Andrew Price was sincere when he created that video not like the clickbait bugzilla made.
But Ton and the other devs just bullied him in one of the blender conference and he looked ashamed and ridiculed.

Surrealist.
03-10-2017, 08:38 AM
From my point of view it was not the fact that the public lynching happened, it was the fact that he could not and would not seee that the imagry was inapropriate. And it was his continued denial of this fact that fuled that fire. And I could only find him at fault for that.

I would have happily overlooled it if he had the capacity to see this.

But in fairness we should not be judging his poor artistic choices.

But that aside, again typical of these kinds of peope is that he could not take criticism.

His arguments and logic for change were fundamentally flawed.

There is a lot that could be said about that. And it could contain an entire book on the subject. And if I was to take all of the posts I have written on the Blender 101 thread I could publish one. Lol!

And this prolific nature is anoying I do realize.
But my defense is that some subjects are that complex. And especially when taking about high level fundamental changes, the time to discuss those issues and addess them are before you launch into development.

To the point this guy seemed to think he had it all sorted out. He didn't and he doessn't. So he is wasting his time and efforts.

Some of his ideas were good. But from a functional standppoint his reasoning is flawed. And so performance will suffer.

Lito
03-11-2017, 08:06 AM
I think whoever developed blender UX early on had a MISSING INDEX FINGER.

Who in their right mind would use RMB as THE selection method on the viewport when the index finger is a humans most dominant finger.
I think the dev want's to give the middle finger to every blender user secretly. :D

I don't know the real reason but I am pretty sure it's because the person who did the UX early was left handed. I know it felt weird to use my brother's computer cause he is left handed, and I know he has serious issues with my computer because even if he used the mouse with his left hand the mouse itself is physically made for right handed users. So I think dev just wanted to give the finger to all right handed users. ;)

Surrealist.
03-11-2017, 12:19 PM
I think Andrew Price was sincere when he created that video not like the clickbait bugzilla made.
But Ton and the other devs just bullied him in one of the blender conference and he looked ashamed and ridiculed.

This is actually not factually what happened. This is all a matter of public record. Unless you were there and have a different account, we all have access to the same data.

But since this has all been argued to no end I don't see three point of going over it again. I know what Andrew was up to. I know that the major mistake was listening to him at all in the first place which is what actually happened. Not the other way around.

That was the mistake.

Blender development has some great things going for it. Mostly the things people want to change the most are the things they are the best about it. It has some really bad aspects I have outlined already. A lack of focus, priority and who to listen to or allow to advise and where.

Both the good and the bad still make Blender a fine piece of software that is being used in many aspects of many industries.

People like this Bforartists guy have great ideas. But he is missing the fundamental reasons about what makes Blender attractive as a software to actually use. And what would actually make it more attractive to use. And it is not things he thinks.

None of the things I hear people complain about are the things I ever see artists I work with in teaching Blender ever even bat an eye at. Usually they spend a few micro seconds of confusion over right click and then simply move on. Get busy learning and creating. While other people online can rant for hours about it. Go figure.

The things that are stopping Blender being adopted are not these things. There are other reasons that only more focused development and resources can fix.

I feel it is a distraction to focus on the things that will not help Blender get wider adoption in the industry. What it needs is more focus on the robustness and completeness of tools. And more professional level features that can compete with Maya Max etc. These are the things that are lacking.

KurtF
03-11-2017, 12:38 PM
The things that are stopping Blender being adopted are not these things.

I humbly disagree. You may have been able to adapt, and teach others to adapt, but I personally find Blender to be maddening. It's a usability issue, pure and simple. Is it worth discussing? Especially on a Lighwave Forum? Probably not. But I read over the linked page about UI improvements for Blender (the UI Workshop Writeup) and I find the ideas presented to be highly promising. If Blender transitions to being more in sync with standard Graphical User Interface practices, I'll probably give it another go.

Again, just my feelings on the matter. But I do have to stare at and work with the software I'm using for long periods of time. It would be nice if I actually liked it!

Surrealist.
03-11-2017, 03:33 PM
Yeah well, as I have said numerous times. The things they are addressing in the next UI are not going to fundamentally change how Blender is used, nor how it functions. This was already discussed at length years ago when the UI changes were being proposed. I am all for UI changes. I think the UI sucks. It always has. It got better. But it still is horrible. I can think about a zillion ways to change it. But none of these things will change how Blender is used. So if you are hating Blender you have to ask yourself if you are hating how it functions or how the UI is configured and operates or are you hating how it functions. How the input and feedback while using it works for you. Because what I hope, for your sake, and others, what will happen is the new UI will attract you back. And with new incentive to learn it and maybe a few annoying things out of the way, you will then hunker down and learn how Blender works. I am sorry to be the messenger. So don't shoot me. This is the same thing I told people when deciding to wait for the 2.5 interface or to learn 2.49. I always said, you may as well dive in with 2.49. Blender did not fundamentally change. And it won't this time either. I do think they have some good UI improvements in store though. But that said, they also have projects I think they will waste time on. Some people on the team just don't understand what software users actually need.

samurai_x
03-11-2017, 07:30 PM
I don't know the real reason but I am pretty sure it's because the person who did the UX early was left handed. I know it felt weird to use my brother's computer cause he is left handed, and I know he has serious issues with my computer because even if he used the mouse with his left hand the mouse itself is physically made for right handed users. So I think dev just wanted to give the finger to all right handed users. ;)


That makes could be possible...
DIdn't he hear the saying
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or one.

8~

SBowie
03-13-2017, 08:45 AM
My, my ... mischief never sleeps, does it. OK, let me briefly explain the moderation of this thread.

First, it generated complaints. That in itself wouldn't always result in moderation, because someone would complain if it rained $100 bills. Second, the post has nothing whatsoever to do with LW, hence doesn't really belong in this forum. Normally, this wouldn't always draw moderation either, because quite frankly I agree with some who have said 'if you don't give people enough to talk about, they'll find something else to talk about', so (although things have brightened up slightly in that respect of late) a little extra tolerance seemed reasonable.

Still and all, this thread has gone sideways on other grounds. Not surprisingly, some have objected to things that are quite frankly objectionable. And yet, whether this devolves from a simple mistake, inattentiveness, or something darker, the objectionable behavior did not occur here, has little bearing on the (admittedly off-topic) topic of the thread. So, since this is not the 'people's court', and the last thing we want is further escalation replete with evidence and testimony (or hearsay). moderation ensues.

If you have concerns about someone's perceived behavior outside this forum, please pursue those concerns in an appropriate venue. Thus endeth the lesson.