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MAUROCOR
03-06-2017, 07:09 PM
Hi, guys.

I start creating a lipsync to this character and for some reazon the hair is acting really weird.
There is no dynamic applied and the hair start moving.
I already spent a lot of time on this and just I can not fix it.
If you look carefully you will see that even the hair of the ears and nose is moving.
Someone may have an idea why is it happening?

BTW, the lipsync itself is not ready yet.

https://vimeo.com/207216689

Thanks in advance.

erikals
03-06-2017, 08:04 PM
hm, some Bias Map related bug maybe?
if you're using Bias maps that is.

hard to say, if no one solves it, share parts of the scene/hair.

but FiberFX in general is buggy...

seems to be related to the mesh deforming.

try decreasing / increasing the SubD level in Layout, could help.

Greenlaw
03-06-2017, 09:07 PM
It's been a while but I've seen that sort of thing happen when FiberFX is applied or activated at a frame/position that's different from the frame/position where it was setup. I think this causes an internal offset with FiberFX.

I also remember seeing stuff like that when artists have scaled and/or repositioned the character before applying the MDD, and I'd have tell them not to do that. Or when the MDD was baked from geometry that didn't start with the same exact t-pose that was used in the FiberFX setup.

Something like that anyways. (Sorry, that was several years ago so I might have some details wrong.)

Greenlaw
03-06-2017, 09:13 PM
Regarding Sub-D level, you shouldn't change that after you've set up FiberFX. The FiberFX settings will completely change if you change the geometry's density. Ideally, you should apply FiberFX up at the Sub-D level you intend to use at render time.

Usually, I'll apply FiberFX to a separate 'scalp' or head object that has a fixed polygon level. This way, I can change the Sub-D level for the main character mesh during animation without worrying about this. Also, I like to leave FiberFX disabled when I'm animating...it's really not necessary to have it on for animation and it will probably drag down the system. Just turn it on during lighting and before rendering.

MAUROCOR
03-07-2017, 07:25 AM
Guys, it is very difficult to find the problem.

Erik, I didnīt use BIAS map so it is not that. :stumped:

Greenlaw, I think I did everything right. I already did other characters the same way and I never had problems.

It seams the problem is when I edit guides. After that the problem starts.

I will try again, this time not editing guides. May I can create something decent that way.

Thank you for you feecback, guys. Really appreciated!

Greenlaw
03-07-2017, 07:53 AM
Just to be sure, are you using Edit Guides at frame zero or whichever frame you're using as the setup frame?

I think when you enable edit guide, it's kinda like resetting your bones in the rig, so if anything is out of place from its original position, the binding will be off.

Hope you get this sorted out...let us know when you do and what you did.

MAUROCOR
03-07-2017, 08:24 AM
Just to be sure, are you using Edit Guides at frame zero or whichever frame you're using as the setup frame?

I think when you enable edit guide, it's kinda like resetting your bones in the rig, so if anything is out of place from its original position, the binding will be off.

Hope you get this sorted out...let us know when you do and what you did.

Yes, I am using Editing Guides at frame zero, no doubt.

I didnīt know yet but maybe the problem is that I have created the morph targets in a position in modeler and then I changed the object position and it is generating those errors.

I will try what I said before and letīs see what happen...

dmind
03-07-2017, 08:30 AM
Really is a problem with some FFx parameters like Splay, Stray...Use Style and check deactivating parameters.
You can see it in shaded mode before render in a preview animation.

MAUROCOR
03-07-2017, 10:42 AM
Really is a problem with some FFx parameters like Splay, Stray...Use Style and check deactivating parameters.
You can see it in shaded mode before render in a preview animation.

It is not this. I tried.

MAUROCOR
03-07-2017, 10:45 AM
I think I tried everything I could. Failed! It is so frustrating...:oye::oye::oye:

CGI_Artist
03-07-2017, 11:18 AM
Subdivision order? Maybe a silly question, sorry if it is.

erikals
03-07-2017, 11:38 AM
share parts of the scene, easier to help.

creacon
03-07-2017, 12:20 PM
Did you bake your deformations to an mdd?
If not, try that, apply the mdd and see what happens.

nice work btw.

creacon

MAUROCOR
03-07-2017, 01:14 PM
- - - Updated - - -


Subdivision order? Maybe a silly question, sorry if it is.

It would be great if that was the problem, but it isnīt...

- - - Updated - - -


Did you bake your deformations to an mdd?
If not, try that, apply the mdd and see what happens.

nice work btw.

creacon

I will try it, thanks.

- - - Updated - - -



share parts of the scene, easier to help.

There it is.

Let me know if you get the problem, please.

erikals
03-07-2017, 01:22 PM
hm, extract operation failed, any chance of a .zip ?

Greenlaw
03-07-2017, 01:44 PM
I was able to open it fine. Will look at it as soon as I get home.

MAUROCOR
03-07-2017, 02:29 PM
hm, extract operation failed, any chance of a .zip ?

Take it!

Greenlaw
03-07-2017, 02:38 PM
I took a quick look during my lunch break but nothing immediately jumped out at me.

I disabled all deformations just to be sure the object wasn't moved at frame 0, but that seemed all right.

FYI, I generally avoid having more than one Edit Guides Style embedded in a file--I seem to run into problems when there's more than one. But I don't think that's the problem here.

Still a mystery. Will look at this more closely tonight.

Greenlaw
03-07-2017, 03:01 PM
Re: Creacon's comment about MDD, I agree, you should bake the mesh before rendering. I always do anyway. It seems to prevent flickering. I'm not sure not baking the animation causes this particular problem, which seems to me more like this FiberFX Style has the wrong origin for this object, but give it a try.

Question: Was the geometry altered since the Style was created? For example, was the body mesh part of the head mesh at one point and then moved to a separate layer? If so, that can cause problems. FiberFX is sensitive to the mesh changing its volume. I ran into a situation like that years ago, and to work around it I had to kill the body polygons and keep all the points in the original mesh to preserve the original volume. Since then, I've tried to put off using FiberFX until I'm sure I have the mesh in its final form for rigging.

But, as with the above, I'm not sure that causes the problem you're seeing. I think this mainly affects size and density of the fibers, and shouldn't cause it to crawl.

Hmm. Will continue thinking about it.

erikals
03-07-2017, 03:21 PM
so far removing Splay/Stray/Swirl removes the problem...

(running 11.6 over here)

bobakabob
03-07-2017, 03:38 PM
Aside from the strange movement, the hair itself looks really good single frame. Hope you get this fixed Maurocor.

If FFX is so sensitive to timelines and mesh editing, would creating "wigs" parented to the head model be a workaround? This was the approach with Shave so many years back. Personally I've found FFX to be a black art and now use Zbrush to create polygonal hair.

erikals
03-07-2017, 03:47 PM
tried using an MDD, but problem persists..

my only advice for now is to turn off Splay/Stray/Swirl

seems to fix it.

a task for FogBugz.

Greenlaw
03-07-2017, 04:07 PM
Oh, yeah, dmind mentioned that. I've had issues with those settings in the past too. I thought they got fixed at one time but maybe it got broken again?

Re: ZB, I really liked using ZB's FiberMesh for FiberFX guides. Learning curve was pretty steep though--I spent many hours just practicing with the tools before I had a sense for how to control it, and there are some 'gotchas' I had to deal after getting the FiberMesh guides into LightWave. Once you get it though, rendering FiberFX with FiberMesh is pretty stable. Works great with Bullet too!

FYI, there's a great training course for working with FiberMesh over at PluralSight (formerly Digital Tutors.) That's where I learned to style with FiberMesh.

MAUROCOR
03-07-2017, 04:59 PM
so far removing Splay/Stray/Swirl removes the problem...

(running 11.6 over here)

Erik, you are absolutely right. That is the problem. Dmind mentioned that before and for some reazon I didnīt realize.
Actually the problem happens only with SPLAY and SWIRL. There is no issues with STRAY.


I didnīt know this bug. Too bad that at this point after so many years after FFX was added to LW we still have to deal with this kind of s****. :twak:
I think I never realized this because I always used small values in this parameters.

Letīs see what I can do now with this half feature called FiberFX. If it is there it should be used, right?

Thank you guys for your help and time. Really appreciated!

- - - Updated - - -



tried using an MDD, but problem persists..

my only advice for now is to turn off Splay/Stray/Swirl

seems to fix it.

a task for FogBugz.

I will use small values. That way the problem is not so evident. Thanks!

MAUROCOR
03-07-2017, 05:08 PM
Aside from the strange movement, the hair itself looks really good single frame. Hope you get this fixed Maurocor.

If FFX is so sensitive to timelines and mesh editing, would creating "wigs" parented to the head model be a workaround? This was the approach with Shave so many years back. Personally I've found FFX to be a black art and now use Zbrush to create polygonal hair.


Oh, yeah, dmind mentioned that. I've had issues with those settings in the past too. I thought they got fixed at one time but maybe it got broken again?

Re: ZB, I really liked using ZB's FiberMesh for FiberFX guides. Learning curve was pretty steep though--I spent many hours just practicing with the tools before I had a sense for how to control it, and there are some 'gotchas' I had to deal after getting the FiberMesh guides into LightWave. Once you get it though, rendering FiberFX with FiberMesh is pretty stable. Works great with Bullet too!

FYI, there's a great training course for working with FiberMesh over at PluralSight (formerly Digital Tutors.) That's where I learned to style with FiberMesh.



I already have created characters with ZB's Fiber Mesh or polygonal hair in LW but for this particular character it would be a problem because this but is affecting everything (hair, beard, eyebrow, hair inside the ears and nose).
There are a lot of morphs and would be difficult to deal with.

This feature is a LW tool and it should be work properly once the marketing says LW - PRODUCTION PROVEN.

Greenlaw
03-07-2017, 05:21 PM
That was a good catch guys.

FYI, I think I generally avoided these options, not because of this issue, but because Splay and Swirl tend to cause 'patterns' in the surface. For example, Splay can splay the fibers from the center of each polygon. Something like that anyway. I do use Stray though.

To randomize the angle of the fibers (assuming that's what you're trying to do,) I find it's better to use the Bump/Root with a procedural texture.

Unfortunately, I just remembered something about that: I used FiberFX on a project at work last summer and Bump Angle is apparently broken in 2015.3. I don't remember exactly how I worked around that at the time...I'll see if I can track down the scene files. (Hmm. I think I forgot to report it back then too. I guess I should do that tonight while I'm thinking about it.)

erikals
03-07-2017, 05:24 PM
Actually the problem happens only with SPLAY and SWIRL. There is no issues with STRAY.
yeah, true, didn't notice. Stray is Fine.   :)

Splay 15
Stray 30
Swirl 15

maybe those settings, would look more like wind perhaps.

yeah, FiberFX is still bug city.   :)

--------

edit: retesting, the effect is still there even with Splay Stray Swirl set to 0%
it's a very small amount of "hair-flicker" though. almost none.

--------

alternative solution,
- remove hair on top only,
- add a second instance of FiberFX using modeler guides.
be sure to turn off Splay Stray Swirl.

136225

clunky, but should work.

or use modeler guides all the way. but then again, could cause endomorph related trouble.


This feature is a LW tool and it should be work properly once the marketing says LW - PRODUCTION PROVEN.
you're right, but from what i've heard many other "big name" packages are even worse.
just thinking about the poor Max/Maya people wrestling MentalRay all those years.

FiberFX works, once you get by the endless quirks   :) :hey:

Boris Goreta
05-29-2017, 05:40 PM
And how am I suppose to create curly fur when swirl doesn't work ? There is no workaround.

This bug is 2 or more years old, I have reported it. Vectors around which fibers swirl or splay are not updated with deformed geometry. Nothing has been done to fix this simple bug.

shrox
05-29-2017, 06:07 PM
Excellent detective work.

Greenlaw
05-30-2017, 01:07 AM
And how am I suppose to create curly fur when swirl doesn't work ? There is no workaround.
Had an idea...

136919

Sorry for the steppiness...it was taking 33 seconds per frame to render and I really didn't want to spend the evening rendering this turntable on my tablet.

Here's the scene file: 136920

Yes, I cheated. I used FiberFX StrandModeler to put a curly guide on each polygon. You did ask for a workaround. :p

Hopefully there will be a proper fix in the next release. :)

Greenlaw
05-30-2017, 01:19 AM
Another trick might be to instance the curly guide over a surface and then bake the instances. Unfortunately, if this was for an animated character using Sub-D surfaces, you won't be able to get accurate guide deformations. Should be okay if you use full res geometry with weight transfers though--that's what I had to do a few years ago for the Brudders characters with FiberMesh for FiberFX.

Back then, I used Drain_BG_Vmap (available at Dodgy's website) to do the weight, morph and texture UV transfers to the guides. Note that this plugin requires x32 LightWave.

Weighter 2.0 should be able to do this in x64 but unfortunately, it got broken for LightWave 2015, so you'll need to do it in 11.6. I asked if Liberty 3D would update Weighter for 2015. They said they were working on it but it's been a couple of years, so it's probably a dead plugin.

I really wish LW3DG would make a native version of this tool--it's too useful for FiberFX, and has many other uses too.

Boris Goreta
05-30-2017, 04:46 AM
Thanks Greenlaw, this is a good workaround. But surface distributed fibers have many advantages over fibers created over guides. I need a dense curly fur something like this:

136921

but sadly this can't be animated because of those swirl, and splay bugs.

What is the proper channel to file a bug these days I want to try again after 2 years, maybe someone takes a look at it.

Ztreem
05-30-2017, 08:03 AM
What is the proper channel to file a bug these days I want to try again after 2 years, maybe someone takes a look at it.

Log in to your account and you should have a button called 'submit new report'

Greenlaw
05-30-2017, 09:33 AM
Thanks Greenlaw, this is a good workaround. But surface distributed fibers have many advantages over fibers created over guides.
Yeah, I know what you mean. I actually had a surface based version of the Brudders characters which only took me like a half-hour to 'brush' for each character using Edit Guides and it looked great. Being surface based, it picked up the textures perfectly and the fibers 'stuck' the to skin since the guides were directly attached. The problem I had with this back in 2012-2013 was that it randomly twitched during animation. It was so close but Edit Guides was still unusable to me at the time. That's when I started using FiberMesh to create FiberFX guides. That solution worked really well but it also introduced a different set of problems which I had to solve using Drain_BG_Vmap as described earlier.

I'm told the twitching problem has since been fixed, and lately I haven't noticed any FiberFX twitching at work. Way back in 2013, I also had a problem getting shadows to work properly with multi-sample lights but I believe that's been fixed too. in 11.6, FiberFX motion vector buffer got broken, but that was fixed for 2015. So there has been some progress since the 11.5/6 days. :)

But, sadly, you're right, some of the style attributes for surface based fibers are still unreliable for animation in 2015. I tend to avoid those settings when I'm using FiberFX for deforming objects but obviously that's not an ideal solution. :(

erikals
11-26-2017, 11:45 AM
related >
https://www.facebook.com/groups/lightwiki/permalink/1265737640198899/?comment_id=1265830923522904&notif_id=1511714415277586&notif_t=group_comment_follow


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrSVnX_CH1E

MAUROCOR
11-26-2017, 02:32 PM
related >
https://www.facebook.com/groups/lightwiki/permalink/1265737640198899/?comment_id=1265830923522904Žif_id=151171441527758 6Žif_t=group_comment_follow


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrSVnX_CH1E

Yeah, I saw that in facebook, nice work. But it was not the problem that I had. I didnīt use dynamic gravity or vmap in my work. In my case the problem was some bug related to Splay/Stray.

erikals
11-26-2017, 02:50 PM
darnit, that's a shame. i had hopes it was a gravity issue, but alas... https://i.imgur.com/L79F3GT.gif

...at least we now know 1 trick, and 1 workaround.

Boris Goreta
11-26-2017, 03:55 PM
Yeah, bias map does not solve this issu, sadly.

Greenlaw
11-26-2017, 03:55 PM
I thought the video was very interesting.

That said, I always leave Dynamic Gravity disabled when using FiberFX. It's basically a 'fake' gravity effect and, depending on your character setup, it will probably conflict with how FiberFx follows the guides. If you really need to simulate the effect of gravity, it's better to use Bullet with the Deforming object mode. It's more reliable and it will look better too.

I've seen the popping error like in the bear video before. Baking the mesh and/or guides to MDD fixes this for me. I use MDD for any fiber or dynamics renders whether rendering locally or to the network (especially when network rendering.) MDD is more efficient and it prevents many potential render errors.

erikals
11-26-2017, 04:52 PM
did you ever test it with Octane? the renders seem to "Pop"* with Octane.
*in a good way... ;)

testing some MDD now...
edit: nah forget it, it doesn't save for some reason, and i'm too tired.

Greenlaw
11-26-2017, 05:46 PM
No, sorry...not with Octane. I have a license on my workstation but it used to be that my graphics card wasn't powerful enough for Octane so I never used it.

Now that I have a suitable graphics card, I'm always too busy to learn how to use Octane. Sigh! :p

Greenlaw
11-26-2017, 06:05 PM
Oh, BTW, Weighter 2 might work with 2015.3 now. There hasn't been a new version released but I asked Kat about it recently and he said it appears to be working now for some reason. I think the error was possibly caused by the original Windows 10 release a few years ago, so maybe one of the recent Windows updates 'fixed' the problem? I'm going to test this myself later this evening.

Weighter 2 is useful for moving weight, morphs and other vmaps from one object to another. It's especially useful if you use ZBrush FiberMesh for FiberFX. For example, I've used it to transfer vmaps from a character mesh to ZBrush FiberMesh hair guides, which normally come into LightWave without vmaps applied.

A good example of the technique can be seen in the B2 trailer (http://bit.ly/2Befvv7)...I used DrainBGVmap there but it was used to transfer the UV Map from the cat characters to the FiberMesh guides so I could use the characters' texture maps to color the FiberFX fur. Weighter 2 essentially does the same thing but the advantage with Weighter 2 (if it's working now,) is that it runs in x64 Modeler so you can use it with a ton more hair guides than you could with DrainBGVmap. (Sergeant and Toullie pretty much pushed the limit with DrainBGVmap in x32 Modeler.)

I'll post again and let you know if it's working in LW 2015.3 and Windows 10 now.

erikals
11-26-2017, 06:28 PM
yeah, too little time... :)

https://i.imgur.com/VdDIKfQ.gif


Oh, BTW, Weighter 2 might work with 2015.3 now

hey, that's great news! :king:
edit: it's the One 32bit plugin i thought about 2 days ago that i thought was essential, and missing! :)

safarifx
11-26-2017, 08:06 PM
Greenlaw

"I've seen the popping error like in the bear video before."

yes and i show the way to fix it. i build for that a wrong set up to show that. in my original example is all tight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFxrL01yYcs

snip safx

Greenlaw
11-26-2017, 09:34 PM
That looks great!

erikals
11-28-2017, 08:48 PM
Mauro, by the way,

did you send this bug to LWG ?

MAUROCOR
11-29-2017, 01:38 AM
Mauro, by the way,

did you send this bug to LWG ?

I think so. I am preparing a new sample scene to do that again. But at this point - when we have no idea if LW NEXT will show its face - I am not sure there will be a fix on this.

In this scene there is only 1 style as Rene told in his video but the problem remains.

erikals
11-29-2017, 05:02 AM
yes, this one too has the bug. i'm short on time, at the moment, but i definitely think you should send it.

Greenlaw
11-29-2017, 10:44 AM
LW3DG has shown they are busy improving the FiberFX renderer, so now's the time to get any helpful bug reports in.

MAUROCOR
12-16-2017, 01:23 PM
yes, this one too has the bug. i'm short on time, at the moment, but i definitely think you should send it.

Erikals, I was told that those issues are not happening in lw2018. Letīs see.

erikals
12-16-2017, 01:57 PM
:)
happy to hear this.

LW2018 looks to be a a step forward in regards to FiberFX :)

MAUROCOR
12-16-2017, 02:06 PM
LW2018 looks to be a a step forward in regards to FiberFX :)

I hope so! ;)

Kryslin
12-16-2017, 07:53 PM
I'm hoping we see more examples of FiberFX as launch nears; while what I see looks awesome, I wonder if it's still the major surgery without anesthetic or pain killers experience that Fiber FX currently is...

erikals
12-17-2017, 03:58 PM
i have a feeling they only worked on the render side of it, not the styling.
could be wrong.

silviotoledo
12-17-2017, 05:20 PM
It was our big problem here while rendering our feature film with fiber effects. We got too much flicking problems no matter if there's animation attached or not. FFX is not a solution for animation. Hope LW 2018 have a different approach. The best is to change the hair. Do not use any styling tools, just use the guides and simple interpolation for straight hair.

MAUROCOR
12-17-2017, 05:27 PM
i have a feeling they only worked on the render side of it, not the styling.
could be wrong.

A developer told me he tested a Theodore scene and it worked fine in LW 2018. Letīs wait and see. It will not take too much time from now. Unless NT comes with some other unexpected surprise, you know what I mean...

erikals
12-17-2017, 06:24 PM
i did find FiberFX bugs in a shared LW2018 render, reported, and hopefully those were fixed.

i'm positive to the new FiberFX system though, seems more robust.

14 more days...

https://i.imgur.com/A3LuMaG.gif

: )