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cove
03-05-2017, 02:05 PM
Hi all.
Have a question about a free Lightwave plugin called "Hot ocean"
that creates animated sea waves.
Ive had it for ages and its great fun to play with.

Just wondering if there is anything else like it available
free or otherwise.

Signal to Noise
03-05-2017, 04:31 PM
Otherwise: RealFlow? http://www.realflow.com/

erikals
03-05-2017, 04:49 PM
you could try clothfx...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUITMvpcono

erikals
03-05-2017, 04:51 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_nW8izrHYs

cove
03-06-2017, 03:09 AM
Otherwise: RealFlow? http://www.realflow.com/

Signal to Noise. RealFlow.
Did think about buying this at one time but decided to wait for Lightwave "Next" and see if dynamic fluids are a new feature in first release version. Unlikely maybe a later version.
Meantime ive bought DeepRisingFX fluid dynamics plugin.
Which is great at creating pouring fluid and wave/splash effects.
But it cannot as yet [may be in version 2] make the sort of ocean waves as seen with the "Hot ocean" plugin.
The big waves in DeepRisingFX when seen in close up are very rounded
and smooth and do not have the sharp crested look as in "Hot ocean" which also has lots of extra wavelets.

cove
03-06-2017, 03:57 AM
you could try clothfx...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUITMvpcono

erikals. clothfx.
Both videos were good to see.
Will check out water effects with clothfx.
Looks to be perfect for calm sea/lake scenes

erikals
03-06-2017, 04:21 AM
i think i would go the HOT way for most waves.
also calm sea.
wakes however can be alright using Clothfx. or DeepRising.

rustythe1
03-06-2017, 05:31 AM
i think i would go the HOT way for most waves.
also calm sea.
wakes however can be alright using Clothfx. or DeepRising.

you can also add more deformers to hot ocean, I have added wakes as animated texture maps in the past, a little more work than just having it dynamic but its an option over forking out for a paid simulator

samurai_x
03-06-2017, 05:32 AM
AAocean is better.
Look it up.

erikals
03-06-2017, 08:45 AM
that'd be great to have inside LightWave.  :)

for now i guess it's HOT all the way...

HOT >


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWlygTjiMvM


also see >
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=++Houdini+Ocean+Toolkit

prometheus
03-06-2017, 11:37 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_nW8izrHYs

If I only had time ..I would have made more of that cloth fx water, I would also like to work more with hot ocean, but I had bad experience with it crashing and it was also quite slow.
Iīll rather see some sort of fluid/particle system as the one that deepfx are working on now, though I think it isnīt at the level where I would invest in it, currently In my eyes, I would like to see that for free...huh, how presumptious of me... right:D..
but as said, I donīt think it seems to be at that level of quality or performance that it would be justified to pay for it...I reckon blender fluids may be on par, but I am not quite sure.

hurleys nvidia physx goey looked interesting as well.

I recall the dstorms liquid pack..and when I tried it out in the demoversions, it could yield great wakes on top of displacements, but I donīt know what on earth they did with it..it didnīt go anywhere it seems.

erikals
03-06-2017, 12:09 PM
http://forums.newtek.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png  how presumptious of me... right...
LoL, heey, nothing wrong with that... !

--------------------

sidenotes >
nvidia physx is blobby
liquid pack is good for fast calculation of particles, but that's about it.
blender fluids is a bit blobby, and haven't been updated in forever.

for good fluids in LightWave the way to go today is...
- DeepRising
- Houdini Indie
- RealFlow

Greenlaw
03-06-2017, 12:20 PM
I used the HOT Ocean plugin for LightWave on a couple of films a few years ago, and it worked well (in LW 2015 anyway.) The plugin creates a convincing procedural wave animation, and can also generate a 'foam' texture sequence, but be aware that the plugin by itself doesn't actually interact with anything.

I used HOT Ocean mainly to get big waves, and I used an inverted 'crumple' animation for smaller surface details. Sometimes I added a larger 'soft' wave displacement to keep the water surface from looking too flat in the distance and to break up any patterns that might appear. (Patterning is common problem with HOT and other procedurals when you cover a very large area but you can usually break it up by using another layer of procedurals and masks.)

For my needs at the time, the plugin was fast and easy to set up. I needed ships and other large items to interact with the surface but I did the interactive bits (wakes, splashes, etc.,) as separate elements that were brought together in compositing. While HOT Ocean is definitely no replacement for RealFlow, when you consider I only had a couple of days to do everything, and there was no time for messing around with full-on simulations, it was the right tool for the job.

Tip: You need to create an MDD of the HOT Ocean displacement if you want to render it on a farm, and be sure to remove the plugin from your 'render version' scene.

cove
03-06-2017, 01:47 PM
that'd be great to have inside LightWave.  :)

for now i guess it's HOT all the way...

HOT >


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWlygTjiMvM


also see >
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=++Houdini+Ocean+Toolkit

Checked out Houdini Ocean Toolkit and a few of the other links as well.
Would love to have this kind of detailed fluid wave action in Lightwave.
However i saw a few ocean splash examples and decided to recreate a scene in DeepRisingFX i made several days ago just to see if texturing could add ocean wave detail.

Created a cone shaped object to be a fluid and simply let this cone fall down into a container.[Container itself made transparent]
At frame 400 i got a nice plume of water come up from the center.

Found that applying a preset called "Electron Micros" and changing the color to a medium grey/specularity to 58.5 %/glossiness 17 percent
gave a decent result with some added detail.
Not perfect but shows whats possible.
Also illustrated is the general roundness/smooth look to the top of the
plume of water.
Coming in the next version of DeepRisingFX is a new feature which adds foam and bubbles. Weather there will be also a feature like
Houdini Ocean Toolkit we will have to wait and see.

erikals
03-06-2017, 02:46 PM
Looks Cool   :)

by the way, can't you uppen the particle count for more detail / realism ?

Marander
03-06-2017, 02:52 PM
Checked out Houdini Ocean Toolkit and a few of the other links as well.
Would love to have this kind of detailed fluid wave action in Lightwave.
However i saw a few ocean splash examples and decided to recreate a scene in DeepRisingFX i made several days ago just to see if texturing could add ocean wave detail.


I think you misunderstand (if I understand you correctly)... The Houdini Ocean Toolkit (for LW) has been around for many years (it exists for other 3d apps as well), it's nothing new and not at all comparable to the current Houdini Ocean capabilities or any water simulation. But for a free plugin it is great. About the DeepRisingFX I'm not very convinced of the quality (skinning etc.), accuracy, possibilities, speed and ui feedback at the current state.

Greenlaw
03-06-2017, 03:27 PM
Yes, that does look great! Man, I could have used that in the aforementioned jobs. :)

I think I wound up using either particle fx, fusion particles or Trapcode Particular, or any combo of these--the latter two systems are used in compositing and can render in 3D. With proper processing, you can make reasonably convincing transparent water fx with any of these.

In my case, I just needed foamy white water so I was able to cheat a lot in post. Still, it would have been better to have some real geometry underneath the particles.

darkChief
03-06-2017, 03:30 PM
Iīll rather see some sort of fluid/particle system as the one that deepfx are working on now, though I think it isnīt at the level where I would invest in it, currently In my eyes, I would like to see that for free...huh, how presumptious of me... right:D..
but as said, I donīt think it seems to be at that level of quality or performance that it would be justified to pay for it...I reckon blender fluids may be on par, but I am not quite sure.
.

Blender is a nice piece of software, I don't mind being compared to it :D Though, blender may be free, but the development isn't. If you're willing to invest in a Deep FX foundation with the same ideologies as the Blender foundation I would welcome it :D

Of course the first open movie would be an animated sequel to Water World :)

P.s Of course I am being silly, but my attempt to make a point is only light humor. I don't mean to offend ;)

creacon
03-06-2017, 04:21 PM
nvidia physx is blobby

That's what you think ;-)

erikals
03-06-2017, 06:48 PM
ahem,... correction,

http://forums.newtek.com/images/misc/quote_icon.pngnvidia physx videos we have seen have been blobby.

samurai_x
03-06-2017, 11:06 PM
Iīll rather see some sort of fluid/particle system as the one that deepfx are working on now, though I think it isnīt at the level where I would invest in it, currently In my eyes, I would like to see that for free...huh, how presumptious of me... right:D..
but as said, I donīt think it seems to be at that level of quality or performance that it would be justified to pay for it...I reckon blender fluids may be on par, but I am not quite sure.


You got to pay if you want to play. :p
No food stamps for such things.

prometheus
03-07-2017, 12:43 AM
You got to pay if you want to play. :p
No food stamps for such things.

That's a completely different matter. .when the tool delivers at the proper level. ..For me..then I would consider it.

samurai_x
03-07-2017, 01:16 AM
Aren't you saying the same thing with TurbulenceFD?
You got to pay if you want to play. :p
This is why there's a dwindling market for 3rdparty devs for lightwave.

Chaosgroup ignores lightwave
Substance ignores lightwave
Juanjo ignores Redshift for lightwave :D

cove
03-07-2017, 03:27 AM
Looks Cool   :)

by the way, can't you uppen the particle count for more detail / realism ?

Yes you can have a lot more particles to get a better looking wave action.
All that,s required is you scale up the size of the fluid [and container]
objects.
But scaling up increases processing time.
The animation i created [800 frames] to get the water plume effect took 2 hours to process. [there were bout 27000 particles]
In similar tests id done previously the fluid object was larger with about 900000+ particles and each frame was taking about 20 minutes to process. Canceled after 2 frames.
With more serious projects were the particle count is very high i can of coarse leave it processing over night.

erikals
03-07-2017, 07:47 AM
http://forums.newtek.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Chaosgroup ignores lightwave
...they also ignore other apps

http://forums.newtek.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Substance ignores lightwave
...they also ignore other apps. would be nice if they looked towards LW though.

http://forums.newtek.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Juanjo ignores Redshift for lightwave   :D
he is quite busy, can't blame him   :)

ianr
03-07-2017, 08:39 AM
Yes you can have a lot more particles to get a better looking wave action.
All that,s required is you scale up the size of the fluid [and container]
objects.
But scaling up increases processing time.
The animation i created [800 frames] to get the water plume effect took 2 hours to process. [there were bout 27000 particles]
In similar tests id done previously the fluid object was larger with about 900000+ particles and each frame was taking about 20 minutes to process. Canceled after 2 frames.
With more serious projects were the particle count is very high i can of coarse leave it processing over night.

Seeded Instancing of White foam hero splashes Sim , tunable birth & death cycles offset on the timeline grid,

linked to a LOD (level-of -detail) lo-rez procedural's version for ocean distance, this is partly, how Scanline VFX (2012 etc) go about it.

Now Houdini(16) is hooking with 'White Horses' instancing.

https://vimeo.com/202435893 (in @ 3.05 mins )


I would love LOD hardwired in future Lightwaves.

If Chronoscuplt could handle placement of White foam hero splashes Sim Instances, balanced against system ram housekeeping.

Then Dark Chief's got a little help on sailing the Briny!

Marander
03-07-2017, 09:28 AM
http://forums.newtek.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Chaosgroup ignores lightwave
...they also ignore other apps

http://forums.newtek.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Substance ignores lightwave
...they also ignore other apps. would be nice if they looked towards LW though.

http://forums.newtek.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Juanjo ignores Redshift for lightwave   :D
he is quite busy, can't blame him   :)

Uhm which ones???

Chaos Group:
V-Ray for 3ds Max
V-Ray for Maya
V-Ray Render Node
V-Ray for Cinema 4D
V-Ray for MODO
V-Ray for NUKE
V-Ray for KATANA
V-Ray for SketchUp
V-Ray for Rhino
V-Ray for Revit
V-Ray for Blender
V-Ray Standalone
V-Ray Application SDK
V-Ray Houdini announced

Redshift:
Autodesk Softimage 2011, 2011.5, 2012, 2012.5, 2013, 2014, 2014 and 2015 (Windows only)
Autodesk Maya 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2016 (Windows and Linux)
Autodesk 3dsMax 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017
SideFX Houdini R14.0, R15.0, R15.5 and R16 (Windows and Linux)
C4D in Beta

Substance:
Unity
Unreal
3DS MAX
Maya
modo
Cinema 4D
Catia
Houdini
Flame
Adobe Fuse
vizrt
iClone
V-Ray
corona
octanerender
SolidAngle arnold
Nvidia Iray
Nvidia mental ray
Marmoset Toolbag
Sketchfab

Then there is corona, arnold, Renderman, Nvidia Iray, Maxwell (no more LW support) etc. etc. most of them supported in major 3D apps.

erikals
03-07-2017, 11:20 AM
Uhm which ones???
we were talking fluids, not render engines, so left that out.

Chaos Group Phoenix is currently only for,
- Max
- Maya


Substance:
cool, didn't know they had developed plugins for so many.

prometheus
03-07-2017, 12:11 PM
Aren't you saying the same thing with TurbulenceFD?
You got to pay if you want to play. :p
This is why there's a dwindling market for 3rdparty devs for lightwave.

Chaosgroup ignores lightwave
Substance ignores lightwave
Juanjo ignores Redshift for lightwave :D


ARenīt I saying the same thing with turbulenceFD???
Where do you get that info from? :screwy: :D
I havenīt said anything like that, my obstacles with not buying in to TurbulenceFD is partly because I wanted particle advection in there before I get it, and partly because I thought it was unstable and crashing a lot when using the demos...and third, I really do not need it, so I need to think about where I would start to spend, like third powers, lwcad..or turbulenceFd, and a forth....nothing of that is even on the map until I can see what the new lightwave looks like.

So foremost it is what the developers showcase in terms of whatīs in the product and stability and ease of use..second to that is how much it will cost, and finally...do I really feel it will ad something to my fun or bring something to the table that will bake some money in the oven.

And No..I donīt have to pay to play, I can do that all for free with blender, but itīs just for play...personally I would rather invest in turbulenceFD..if the price is good enough, and if the features are there and working without too much crashing, than play around with blender fire and smoke...even if it is free, at least in the stage it is now.

prometheus
03-07-2017, 12:26 PM
Blender is a nice piece of software, I don't mind being compared to it :D Though, blender may be free, but the development isn't. If you're willing to invest in a Deep FX foundation with the same ideologies as the Blender foundation I would welcome it :D

Of course the first open movie would be an animated sequel to Water World :)

P.s Of course I am being silly, but my attempt to make a point is only light humor. I don't mean to offend ;)

No worries darkchief, you do not offend.

I so would like to try that demo out of the deepfx fluids, currently I am short on time though.
One thing though..I hope you can work a bit ..or at least take notes about the UI, I am really not a fan of how it seems to be set up and worked in the UI, to many popup windows I guess and drop down lists..hard to specify exactly, I would need to test it in order to give an accurate description of what I mean.

What You need is someone that is skilled with water simulations, and have a good sense for it..and ultimately display great renders from that fluid sim, I know it is in a very early stage so I can just encourage you to keep on and be patcient about it.

Maybe contact mercury3d on youtube..he has worked a bit with realflow to lightwave with some promising results, he may be hooked on realflow and may not consider something else, but who knows?
Ultimately your product will undoubtly be compared to the top stuff such as realflow, or houdinin flip fluids....comparison with blender will merely be a testiment to how well blender can do things for free, it will not raise your product stocks any higher exactly.

That said, I was just mentioning that as to a first impression glint of the fluid system...I can of course not really say for sure If your fluid system is more advanced and better..or will reach a much better level than blender, I need to try it of course.

Mercury3d on youtube...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQzDnIUYZnI

prometheus
03-07-2017, 12:30 PM
Yes you can have a lot more particles to get a better looking wave action.
All that,s required is you scale up the size of the fluid [and container]
objects.
But scaling up increases processing time.
The animation i created [800 frames] to get the water plume effect took 2 hours to process. [there were bout 27000 particles]
In similar tests id done previously the fluid object was larger with about 900000+ particles and each frame was taking about 20 minutes to process. Canceled after 2 frames.
With more serious projects were the particle count is very high i can of coarse leave it processing over night.

Did you use 64 bit lightwave? sounds heavy on the system if you get 20 min to process for that..but of course it depends on your hardware and memory as well.

cove
03-07-2017, 03:11 PM
Did you use 64 bit lightwave? sounds heavy on the system if you get 20 min to process for that..but of course it depends on your hardware and memory as well.

i prometheus.

Yes my Lightwave is 64 bit.

Here my system specification

Armari Magnetar S16-AW750 Workstation.
Processor. Intel i7 3.40GHz [6core/12 thread].
[Tuned to run at 4.4GHz] Water cooled system.
RAM. 32GB SDRAM.
GRAPHICS CARD. AMD FirePro W5000.
O/S Microsoft Windows 10 Professional [64BIT].
Dell 24" hi res monitor.

To make more sense of the 20 minutes per frame with a very high particle count i had added all 5 filters in the Mesh window which helps create a smoother surface to the final mesh.
These filters are optional by default but they do add to the processing time.
Im still learning the software and were compramisers need to be made.

Although others would prefer DeepRisingFX to be at a more advanced stage its turned out for me, as it is now, to be reasonably easy to understand and get to grips with as it has relatively
few panels and parameters to get your head round.
Also i like the way Darkcheif acts on any suggested improvements.
In a recent update he added about 5-6 of the most important features that had been requested with less inportant ones i expect being added in another update.

UNREALONE1
12-17-2017, 10:34 AM
When will hot ocean be available for PC win? it's been 7 years?
https://code.google.com/archive/p/hotocean4lw/downloads

Greenlaw
12-17-2017, 10:48 AM
When will hot ocean be available for PC win? it's been 7 years?
https://code.google.com/archive/p/hotocean4lw/downloads

HOT Ocean has run on Windows for many years.

For example, if you scrub to 0:44 in the video link below, you can see a scene where I used Hot Ocean in LightWave 11.6 running on Windows 7 back in 2014:

https://vimeo.com/209695539

(I used it elsewhere in that reel too but don't want to take the time to go through it right now.) :)

We also sometimes used HOT Ocean at Rhythm way, way back, but I don't have any of that footage online.

Greenlaw
12-17-2017, 10:58 AM
In the link you posted, the last download item (marked OpsSys-Windows) is the one for Windows.

It runs in x64 too. As mentioned earlier in this thread, you should MDD scan the displacement before submitting the scene to a render farm.

stiff paper
12-17-2017, 11:09 AM
When will hot ocean be available for PC win? it's been 7 years?
Yes, you're right. Seven years. Seven years since it's been available for PC.

Greenlaw
12-17-2017, 11:12 AM
Another tip: I mainly use HOT ocean for foreground water, and any region near the camera. For distant water, it's more practical to use a plane or disc with procedural surfacing tricks. That's what I used in the wide open ocean scenes on the reel.

You can merge the two effects in LightWave or in compositing. IMO, it's easier and much faster to do this compositing. I prefer Fusion for this sort of thing but AE is pretty good too. I remember making another good example but I don't think it's on that reel. (Hmm, maybe it's time to cut another reel.) :)

Hope you get HOT Ocean running on your system soon. Have fun!

ckeyes888
12-15-2018, 12:47 PM
Is there a Mac version of the latest Hot Ocean plugin?

jwiede
12-16-2018, 06:19 PM
AAocean is better.
Look it up.

Agreed, if you are seriously seeking realistic ocean surface displacement/deformation, etc. then AAocean is superior to HOT.

AAocean Suite info here (http://www.amaanakram.com/plugins-shaders/aaocean-suite/) -- but keep looking, as I recall a LW version of the Tessendorf approach also available with similar name, just cant find the link.

Tessendorf's paper "Simulating Ocean Waves" is here (https://people.cs.clemson.edu/~jtessen/papers_files/coursenotes2004.pdf), which was the basis of AAocean. There's a related presentation here (http://evasion.imag.fr/Membres/Fabrice.Neyret/NaturalScenes/fluids/water/waves/fluids/waves/Jonathan/articlesCG/waterslides2001.pdf) which might help understand the approach better, if you're considering making your own from scratch.

ckeyes888
12-16-2018, 06:47 PM
Actually what is most important in this particular project is the ability to have an object rise out of the water on to a beach,
with some decent realism e.g. drips/splashing etc.
Having been away from LW for a good decade I’m surprised to see there still isn’t something like RealFlow included.
Also finding there really isn’t much of anything to run on my Mac version for realistic fluid dynamics.
Sorry now I didn’t switch to Maya or Cinema4D.

jwiede
12-16-2018, 06:56 PM
Is there a Mac version of the latest Hot Ocean plugin?

How desperate are you? :devil:

There's a OSX UB32 plugin here (https://code.google.com/archive/p/hotocean4lw/downloads), but won't work in LW UB64 obviously. The source code is there as well, but it's set up for VStudio Windows compilation, so compiling on XCode for UB64 will likely take a bit of conversion work.

If you're truly desperate, and can't find a UB64 compile otherwise (I thought there was one posted on the forums at one pt, but might be thinking of another pkg), I'm sure there are ways you could convince a dev with a Mac & XCode to build a UB64 version for you. I'd offer, but simply don't have time at the moment, but will look at it as soon as I have some free time. I believe Mike Wolf was involved with the port, so he might have a UB64 version around somewhere, might be worth asking.

ckeyes888
12-16-2018, 07:23 PM
Thanks. For a relative newbie to fluid dynamics this is all sounding like a many months project, not something
I could get anywhere with in a few weeks. I’m in need of something that doesn’t seem to exist, powerful with
an intuitive GUI...especially so being a Mac user.

jwiede
12-17-2018, 01:17 PM
Thanks. For a relative newbie to fluid dynamics this is all sounding like a many months project, not something
I could get anywhere with in a few weeks. I’m in need of something that doesn’t seem to exist, powerful with
an intuitive GUI...especially so being a Mac user.

So really desperate. Okay, noted, will see if I can do anything quickly to help, but no promises.