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View Full Version : Found a video - What killed Lightwave?



HenrikSkoglund
03-01-2017, 01:32 AM
Hi guys, sorry for posting, but this makes me a bit upset:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiOX-D2B8LE

I just don't understand why someone would take the time to edit something like this up just to downtalk Lightwave? But at the same time it makes me a little worried since, at least to me, it's been very quiet around blog updates etc for a while.

Why I post this? I don't know, maybe just want someone in here to tell me that Lightwave is still kicking somewhere :)

erikals
03-01-2017, 02:21 AM
answered elsewhere here at the forums, but also gave my answer here >
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=8291421#post8291421

also my answer in the YouTube comments field >


i think it's good to see people addressing the flaws of LightWave, being a LW user myself. however, there is MUCH inaccurate info / misleading info in this video.

- Modeler and Layout were not two separate programs due to hardware, but due to being written by two different programmers
- the CORE -project, an attempt, flawed one however, aiming to make an XSI like app.
- the NT forum being the biggest>most active forum around, you're were bound to get critique, relevant or not.
- Modo is these days facing the same "old code" clutter problems that LightWave is.
- NewTek is now Rewriting most of the LightWave Layout engine.
- Yes, Blender is nice and i might use it later on.
- i could address more things in your video, but instead of making this a pi** contest i hope to see a better video next time.

also read >
https://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?415295

HenrikSkoglund
03-01-2017, 02:27 AM
Thanks Erikals, I agree on your comment.

mav3rick
03-01-2017, 03:11 AM
hah this video probable done by kelly and published by some blender fanboy :)

erikals
03-01-2017, 03:42 AM
no, Kelly actually comments the video. (see Comments section)

mav3rick
03-01-2017, 04:08 AM
no, Kelly actually comments the video. (see Comments section)

oh great... not only he contributed editing video ... he continues commenting :) trump'o'kellya

Surrealist.
03-01-2017, 09:47 AM
The video has been discussed endlessly. In short the guy has 0 credibility by way of ignoring major points and inaccuracies.

Something to realize. That there is a trend lately for people to make these videos a way to market themselves. And that is the reason. It is not about the software. Have you noticed that through most of of this guy's videos he shows himself demoing his own work in that software? While he talks on and on about LightWave, or in the case of Blender, Blender.

He could very easily invoke the fair use clause and show some of the amazing work that has been done in LightWave.

So what is he doing exactly?

Making videos with titles and content that is click bait and will spark heated debates. And the perception is he will benefit by marketing himself. He figures the more attention he can get the more he will be noticed. More people will go to his website etc. In all that traffic there will be some potential work.

More than likely inspired by this:


https://vimeo.com/16605785

That is the long and short of it in my opinion. If there was a real effort to get to the bottom of what happened with LightWave the video would have an entirely different tone.

Oldcode
03-01-2017, 10:36 AM
I watched the video and I'm not sure what to think about it. There was a lot of things he stated as fact that would be difficult to verify, and most of the rest was his opinion, which he's certainly entitled to, but its just that, opinion.

I hear a lot of chatter here about how 3DSMax and Maya, and other software are betting than Lightwave in this way or that, but for me it does not matter. I first got into Lightwave when I saw Mojo at a Babylon 5 convention back in 97. I got to talk to him personally. I figured the software was some proprietary thing written for a mainframe. So when he told me its an off the shelf piece of software that anybody could run on the average PC, is was thrilled!

I bought a copy as soon as I could afford it and have been fiddling ever since. Lightwave is the least expensive of all the major software titles out there which is a big strength, and even though its not as capable as others, I've still hardly scratched the surface of what it could do. Some make the same argument between Poser and DAZ Studios. Poser is much more functional, but DAZ is Free.

Not too long ago, a found one of Bugzilla's You Tube videos that solved a problem I've been having for over 3 years, so I really appreciate his, and anybodies efforts to help out. I would be lost with the help of ordinary people making how-to vids so I appreciate his tutorials even if they are self promoting. We've all got a right to toot our own horn, as long as the notes are sweet! ;)

Spinland
03-01-2017, 11:06 AM
There's a follow-on video on their channel about why do artists defend bad software?

My comment? Why do people believe they're qualified to define what "bad software" means to artists? Bad in what sense? Does it fit into a personal workflow and enhance the creative flow rather than impede it? And you think you're going to tell me it's bad? Either I will shake my head at your ignorant impudence and ignore you as you deserve, or I'll abandon good sense and try to educate you. That's what's really going on. The very title was ridiculous and I told them so.

By analogy. I have a clawhammer. It's a very good hammer, but a "bad" screwdriver. Now, let's refine that: the claw part is mangled and broken. It's now a "bad" tool for pulling nails, but still excellent at driving them. If all I need do is drive nails, then dumping it for a "not bad" hammer is a rather foolish move.

Asshats.

Spinland
03-01-2017, 11:33 AM
So what is he doing exactly?

Making videos with titles and content that is click bait and will spark heated debates.

I'm inclined to agree with you on this. The other video on that channel I downvoted and commented on was classic ********-title clickbait and I called him on it. I've posted elsewhere here about what I believe it takes to set yourself apart in this industry, and it isn't that childish and ignorant nonsense.

Prince Charming
03-01-2017, 11:33 AM
It was a surrealist says... it was bottom feeding marketing scam, bashing the software with the least users for attention, to get the least amount blow back. There may have been some genuine frustration behind it, but he is speaking from a very limited understanding, and usage of the tool.

Chris S. (Fez)
03-01-2017, 12:47 PM
hah this video probable done by kelly and published by some blender fanboy :)

Kelly has not exactly been diplomatic regarding his concerns for how the LW Group has developed and marketed Lightwave. But he is absolutely committed to Lightwave. Liberty 3D is dedicated to developing tools and educational material for Lightwave! IMO Kelly and LW Group would be vastly better off swallowing some pride and settling their differences after the release of LW Next.

Spinland
03-01-2017, 12:51 PM
Kelly has not exactly been diplomatic regarding his concerns for how the LW Group has developed and marketed Lightwave. But he is absolutely committed to Lightwave. Liberty 3D is dedicated to developing tools and educational material for Lightwave!

QFA. I've had a lot of offline talks with Kelly and I think we get along well. I don't know what (if any) involvement he might have had with these videos but if it's nonzero I would, if he asked, counsel he distanced himself from this sort of tactic. I've been a fervent supporter of Liberty3D and I do think Kelly means well despite his sometimes-lack of diplomacy. If he read this I think he'd laugh at my understatement and demand I bought the next round. :beerchug:

erikals
03-01-2017, 01:16 PM
Kelly is Pro-LightWave

make No doubt about that...! :)

Daphne
03-01-2017, 01:24 PM
Click baiting is the classic "any publicity is good publicity" argument.

Am I the only one that's curious what problem Oldcode had for 3 years? ha ha

Spinland
03-01-2017, 01:25 PM
Not to mention Centurions with stabby fingers, and Iron Skies. :boogiedow

Spinland
03-01-2017, 01:33 PM
Oh, on a related note: What Killed Lightwave? Are you effing kidding me? Killed in what sense? Do you presume to define what "dead" means in my workflow? Oh, you poor Summer child: you have no idea how far over your head you are in.

See, what I do know about the craft of writing says that your title sets the tone. When it's a complete and utter fallacy that elicits only hoots of derision you best needs seek some other line of work.

Oldcode
03-01-2017, 01:50 PM
Click baiting is the classic "any publicity is good publicity" argument.

Am I the only one that's curious what problem Oldcode had for 3 years? ha ha

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?152278-Guide-Hair-on-an-MDD-object&highlight= ;)

erikals
03-01-2017, 02:42 PM
edit, my mistake, saw 2 links...

HenrikSkoglund
03-01-2017, 03:19 PM
Who is this Kelly fellow? Working at Liberty 3D? LOL!

I feel that Surrealist is right, this whole thing must either be to draw attention to himself or just for the sheer amusement of making users of Lightwave upset.

Still, doing something like this feels like time wasted to me.

richcz3
03-01-2017, 03:53 PM
This isn't the mid 1990's Dorothy...
It maybe less about Lightwave and more about the general decline of the industry as a whole. The 3D landscape has changed dramatically and the (US) Talent/User base has very likely contracted significantly - to varying degrees across all platforms. The nightmare stories of studios underbidding projects and shutting down since 2000; leaving big numbers overworked, unpaid talent likely didn't help foster faith in learning 3D as a career choice. Once vibrant CG Boards are shadows of their former selves. I stepped away from Industrial/Medical animation in early 2007 and have never regretted it. Lightwave isn't going to die, but it's purpose within Newtek will likely remain as a support application for their hardware and software offerings.

Spinland
03-01-2017, 04:33 PM
It's 100% a given that my personal perspective informs my attitude about this sort of talk. I don't give a flying rat's rumpus about "the industry" or where various people have convinced themselves LW is "going." I have a job to do, and LW as it stands right now steps up and lets me do that job very well. That's what matters to me: does the rubber meet the ramp and can I deliver on time, on target.

If your collective perspective comes from a different viewpoint, that's all well and good; I only lose my cool when folks presume to define "the industry" as though that definition applied in my case, or declare the sky is falling for LW in a similar wise. No, it's not and yes, LW works damned well and is kicking *** and helping me make my mortgage.

What other criteria are there, really? Seriously. This is an app with which to generate income, and it fills that role very well. If it's not doing it for you, then it's time to re-evaluate your professional choices.

How could things be any simpler?

MichaelT
03-01-2017, 06:43 PM
Given the LW videos stopped some three years ago in that YouTube channel, replaced with Blender since then. It is pretty clear which software is his favorite cup of tea. Two years ago, there was a VS Maya one too. If anyone begins talking to me about 'vs' stuff, and 'falling behind'. I begin to wonder: -Compared to what? Because I can promise you.. that angle can be made about every single application on the market. Depending on your needs. You learn tools, that'll do the job you need done. That's it. Sure, you can like a tool more than another. But in the end.. that is all it is.. a tool.

In the end though, I suspect that video was made for one purpose only. Get subscribers..

Prince Charming
03-01-2017, 07:13 PM
It's 100% a given that my personal perspective informs my attitude about this sort of talk. I don't give a flying rat's rumpus about "the industry" or where various people have convinced themselves LW is "going." I have a job to do, and LW as it stands right now steps up and lets me do that job very well. That's what matters to me: does the rubber meet the ramp and can I deliver on time, on target.

If your collective perspective comes from a different viewpoint, that's all well and good; I only lose my cool when folks presume to define "the industry" as though that definition applied in my case, or declare the sky is falling for LW in a similar wise. No, it's not and yes, LW works damned well and is kicking *** and helping me make my mortgage.

What other criteria are there, really? Seriously. This is an app with which to generate income, and it fills that role very well. If it's not doing it for you, then it's time to re-evaluate your professional choices.

How could things be any simpler?


I dont care how successful you think you are with LW... there are serious issues with the current software. That is great if you dont care, but I do. I am only a hobbyist, but I will stop upgrading if things do not change drastically with the software. To act like there is nothing wrong, and everyone else is crazy for complaining make you even less informed than bugzilla.

Surrealist.
03-01-2017, 07:20 PM
Bingo.

richcz3
03-01-2017, 07:58 PM
Whatever application one uses to get the job done and pays the bill, that's great. I've seen and read my share of software snobbery and passion over 25 years, realizing, its up to the individual to decide what works best for them to get the job done.

There are masters in MS paint. Real good animators who use nothing but Poser and the like. They don't need to spend $$$ to get the job done, and more importantly they don't give a rats ***** what others think.

With that said, as any user who invests an inordinate amount of time using any application, they want to know that said application will remain a viable option into the future. It doesn't matter what industry your in. Developer communication is a paramount - users want/need to know the developers are forging ahead with updates and features. When developers go silent - that is never a good thing... Ever.

Not everyone is the own boss. This is where marketable skills comes in. You can be a Michelangelo in MS Paint, but you will find few job opportunities that will employ you for it. How employable am I with the application(s) I use? This is the basis for a lot of the contentious debate for over 15 years. When the user base loses confidence - they tend to move on. When user numbers decrease, developer communication and application updates tend to slow down. Those two details tend to go hand in hand.

samurai_x
03-01-2017, 10:53 PM
Bugzilla's app was probably a flop. He probably needs marketing, views and extra income via youtube.
The video is clickbait.
But he's not going to earn much on youtube doing videos about 3d work.
He better do this instead to get millions of views. :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a4eoz_DviU

bazsa73
03-01-2017, 11:41 PM
Bugzilla's videos are lame.

erikals
03-02-2017, 12:31 AM
In the end though, I suspect that video was made for one purpose only. Get subscribers..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu9ykHFu270


...you think?   ;)

djwaterman
03-02-2017, 12:57 AM
I think his video is his own honest opinion, based on his long term use of LW and shift to Blender. Everyone can have an opinion and I don't think he's pulled it out of his hat. Let it go, currently, without LW next released, LW could be considered stalled software depending on how you look at it. His video is valid as a general opinion based on his experience using it. If (IF) LW Next does get released, that will change things and we can all make our own videos extolling it's values.

erikals
03-02-2017, 01:15 AM
the criticism of his video is mainly this >

most of what he says is TOTALLY incorrect.

sorry, but there is no defending that. that's just lack of smartiness.

Spinland
03-02-2017, 01:17 AM
Let it go...

Yeah. His "honest opinion" is demonstrably nonsense, but it's not worth getting riled over; that just feeds the problem. Comments deleted, channel unsubscribed, personage forgotten. Moving on. :jam:

erikals
03-02-2017, 01:21 AM
Let it go...

will do. on the other hand i got kind of tempted to make a "what sucks about Blender" video.

you know... get a few more subscribers.

fablefox
03-02-2017, 01:22 AM
What killed Lightwave?

Management. No more no less. Everything else is a technicality. But the buck stop at the management.

--edit--

honorable mention: market.

if defacto game engine decided to just support ONE software and that software is NOT you, you are walled off the market pretty quick. the same with plug-ins.

erikals
03-02-2017, 01:24 AM
management halted LightWave, no big secret.

fablefox
03-02-2017, 01:27 AM
will do. on the other hand i got kind of tempted to make a "what sucks about Blender" video.

you know... get a few more subscribers.

the problem is that things like that doesn't fly for an open source app. there actually a market of blender developer willing to add / fix features for $$$.

Spinland
03-02-2017, 01:34 AM
Much more pleasant (and productive) to contemplate: the last overnight render on this time-critical previz job came out great, just shipped it off to the client and, upon buy-in, I can invoice this job. Cha ching. Thank you, Lightwave. :jam:

djwaterman
03-02-2017, 04:27 AM
You can't argue against someone's actual experience, and from his point of view he has a lot of valid points, we shouldn't be so defensive about software and how others view it. I'm prepared to wait around for LW next, but if it fails to show up then LW is dead.

Spinland
03-02-2017, 06:05 AM
My beef wasn't necessarily the observations, rather the over-reaching (and sometimes simply false) conclusions being drawn from them. YMMV. ;D

And, again: "dead" in which sense? As in no further support or development? Granted. As in no longer a massively useful player in various professional workflows? I'd say not. It's all relative. In my case it's relative to I think I'll drop by the pub today for lunch.

Surrealist.
03-02-2017, 06:07 AM
As to the parts of the video that are his personal experience and opinion I agree with nearly all of it. I am not sure what most of the video has to do with his opinion though. That is a very small part of it. The rest of it is just a gross misrepresentation and omitting of facts while he plays around in LighWave to show off his talent.

That does not gain my respect. So I don't see any respect for opinion needed. If he wants that -which I am sure he could care less about in this case - then he'd make a video showing only those from a personal experience level. Would be a boring video no one would want to watch though.

Spinland
03-02-2017, 06:50 AM
That does not gain my respect. So I don't see any respect for opinion needed. If he wants that -which I am sure he could care less about in this case - then he'd make a video showing only those from a personal experience level. Would be a boring video no one would want to watch though.

QFA. I've written whatsisname off my list, but I do like some of the insights being shared here from folks who get it. Thanks for making it an interesting thread. :beerchug:

samurai_x
03-02-2017, 07:34 AM
He pointed out something that is always there in software specific forums. Why he is pointing only at lightwavers is stupid.

"The users help to retard the development of lightwave at a crucial time.
The only ones left at the forum were lightwave hipsters.
If you didn't like the way lightwave was setup or found a software killing bug, the problem is you, never lightwave.
It became one of the most toxic groups I've ever encountered."

He's talking about fanboys. And that exists in any forum even in the blender community.
When I started blender I met the same rabid blender fanboys who can't accept how some of the workflow are inconsistent, convuluted . :dance:

jeric_synergy
03-02-2017, 10:18 AM
Shouldn't someone slag him about the audio? :D

prometheus
03-02-2017, 12:47 PM
looky here..:)

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?153019-Top-10-Best-3D-Animation-Software-of-2017

Chrusion
03-02-2017, 02:28 PM
SLI? Where did he get THAT? Close but if you don't get it right, twice, then credibility is lost. How about "SGI," as in Silicon Graphics, Inc.