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View Full Version : 7.5b Has Anyone Heard of a Concept Called Beta Testing



riki
03-07-2003, 04:10 AM
What up with this? It looks like it cycling through an 8 bit palette.

riki
03-07-2003, 04:25 AM
When I open the preset Shelf, the Surface Editor dissapears behind the main Layout window. This make it hard to tell what surface your applying the Preset to. Maybe it's a workflow thing that takes a bit of time to get use to??

Beamtracer
03-07-2003, 04:49 AM
I just posted a reply, and then erased it again, as I didn't realize you are referring to the just-released 7.5B.

I stopped using Lightwave on Mac OS9 three years ago when I moved to OS X, so I'm not going to be much help to you.

It's possible that this is an OS X - only thing, in which case Newtek probably should have labelled it as such.

pixelmonk
03-07-2003, 06:35 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
I just posted a reply, and then erased it again, as I didn't realize you are referring to the just-released 7.5B.

I stopped using Lightwave on Mac OS9 three years ago when I moved to OS X, so I'm not going to be much help to you.

It's possible that this is an OS X - only thing, in which case Newtek probably should have labelled it as such.

True.. everything seems to work here on the PC side. Oh the joy. >:)

pixelmonk
03-07-2003, 06:39 AM
Originally posted by riki
IWhy can't newtek do something right for once? Why can't they include version information on the download page. I'm sorry I know I should be feeling gratitude for the free update, but this very quickly turns sour when I realise all the time I've wasted and how much this little exercise in futility has messed up my system.

Thanks a lot guys.

First and foremost, you should know to backup anything before you patch it, regardless of who develops it. It shouldn't have "messed up" your system. It's a self-contained program.

Chances are, and this is a non-Mac person talking, it's the fact that you have OS9 versus OSX and there's probably a host of visual errors. Email them via the bug report address. Posting a whine here won't get it to them directly. Just state the problem to them and see what they say. You never know, they could already have something ready for release. Don't assume the world is going to end.

riki
03-07-2003, 06:42 AM
Luckily I had my system backed up on an external drive, I was able to go back to 7.5. Yeah Yeah I'm going to upgrade one of these days. It's on my list of things to do, slowly filterring through to the top :-)

pixelmonk
03-07-2003, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by riki
Luckily I had my system backed up on an external drive, I was able to go back to 7.5. Yeah Yeah I'm going to upgrade one of these days. It's on my list of things to do, slowly filterring through to the top :-)

I heard OSX is pretty killer on the Mac. Lots of apps are finally on OSX that pretty much rock.

novadesigns
03-07-2003, 09:42 AM
I'm sorry to hear you're having so many problems. But...

You really should be using OS X. I know there are many possible reasons why you may not be (old hardware, legacy apps. etc...) But if you want to run Lightwave on the Macintosh, its really the only game in town. OS 9 is a patched and hacked mess that only loooong time Apple developers like Adobe and Quark can still make stable apps for.

I bought LW 6 for the Mac and spent nearly 6 months just trying to keep it from crashing every 2 minutes--I never got one thing accomplished. I had errors exactly like the one you posted and many many others. I was really angry too until I realized that it wasn't Newtek's fault. Apple's OS 9.x OpenGL implementation is garbage.

As soon as OS X was available I switched it and all my problems were gone. Stable, fast and most importantly, OS X native! :)

Of course, to be fair I'm using Lightwave on the PC now. Some of it is stability and plugin availability, but mainly its just so I can stay current and buy the absolute fastest hardware for far less money that Apple is charging. But I have tried LW 7.5 on the newest dual 1.25GHz Macs, and it simply screams!

If you have anything around the dual 800 or above mark, get OS X, you won't ever look back. :)

Chuck
03-07-2003, 10:56 AM
The Mac beta testers did not encounter the problem you are having. They tested with both OS9 and OSX. As you recall, they tested your entire previous list of items and I posted the results.

If you are willing, please start a thread in the Mac support section, let us know your configuration and what options you chose during the install, and we can go to work on figuring out the source of the problems you are having. A good first option to consider given the image you've posted, would be your video drivers.

dablan
03-07-2003, 01:30 PM
I'm with Chuck on this.
I've got 7.5 b on both Mac and PC without issue.

With any upgrade, backups of configs, files, etc. should be done first.

Any display problems are due to video board drivers.

Dan

Stranahan
03-07-2003, 02:12 PM
Or the installer could back up your config files for you - that's a nice friendly installer idea. I reckon 95% of LightWave users don't know what or where the config files are - and why should they? It's nothing they should think about...

riki
03-07-2003, 04:17 PM
Okay I'm going to give it another go. Let you know how it turns out.

Stranahan
03-07-2003, 04:50 PM
I had the problem where it's giving me a new countdown..so I guess it erased my LightWave key information or something. I called NewTek, waited about 3 minutes (reasonable, I'd say) and Marvin gave me the new number to make it work. No big problem.

I also lost all my keyboard shortcuts, menus, and plug-ins that I had installed - this was a fairly easy fix since I'd saved them.

Everything else seems fine.

riki
03-07-2003, 04:59 PM
Thanks for moving the thread Chuck. I've reinstalled the update, so far it seems to be going well.

Chuck
03-07-2003, 05:39 PM
Moved...

Chuck
03-07-2003, 06:03 PM
This thread originated in the Community section and still has a redirect link there, and some of the issues discussed pertain to PC. Please forgive, but given that circumstance, I'm going to post some comments that are mostly applicable to the PC install.

Regardless of how much effort a vendor makes in trying to create a simple and bullet-proof install, I would always, always, always recommend making a backup of files before installing an update. That recommendation was written into the readme file despite in-house testing trying out the installer and having no problem with the existing files: "While the 7.5b patch does not place new configuration files nor replace the license.key file, as a safety precaution it would still be wise to make a copy of these files in a safe location on your hard drive."

So far as I can see from the installs I have done (again, the caveat is that those have been PC installs: P3-450 128MB Win NT 4 SP5, P4-2530 512MB Win XP Home), this installer is doing a very simple piece of work - it has a limited set of files and wants to put those into specific folders in an existing LightWave installation. As long as the user points the installer at the correct directory and none of the target files in that directory are write-protected, then the install should be successful. Again, from the readme: "When you are asked where to install the patch, select the folder in which your current copy of LightWave 3D 7.5 is located." The Config files and the license.key file are not among the files the installer has, so those should remain untouched, and this has been the case for most users doing the install. (But, back them up anyway!:))

So far the most of the problems I've seen seem to break down to a couple of errors. First is that the user did not select the proper directory and the installer then puts the files someplace other than directly over the top of the existing installation. For some users this has been because they did not use the browse option to set the proper directory, so the installer created folder C:\LightWave (to use a Windows example) and installed the files there. For other users, they inadvertently selected a level too deep using the browser, for example instead of C:\LightWave7, they selected C:\LightWave7\Programs. In either case, you have the executables now in a directory without a license.key file, and so LW will run in Discovery Edition mode, or as seemed to happen in some reported cases, a temp license.key will be created.

Second is that files in the existing installation are write-protected for some reason, either due to the way the file properties are actually set, or because the system is seeing the file as in use, for example the Hub has been inadvertently left on when the user starts the install. In this situation, the installer cannot overwrite the file or files involved. The latter situation should generate an error message, but apparently in some instances has not, with the result that when the user attempts to run the software, the old files cause failures.

There are a couple of reports I've seen that these may not account for, but it remains the case that the installer is an entity with a simple set of instructions and a certain number of files, and is really not capable of generating random behaviors. It's generally going to need help from the user or the circumstances to do that, whether by direct choice or an unusual system or file configuration issue, or even just by a bit going wrong somewhere during decompression or copying of a file.

All of that said, users who are having difficulty and have checked for all of the above problem conditions, and they do not seem to apply, should contact NewTek's technical support services for assistance. If you suspect your situation does indeed reflect an problem with the installer, you could well be right. Our engineering staff most certainly will want to address any issues that may exist in the installer.

And if you have suggestions for better install procedures for either platform, those, too, are welcome.

riki
03-07-2003, 06:28 PM
Thanks Chuck sorry for getting upset before you'll notice that I've toned down the nature of my original posts in this thread.

I had a bad experience with the install. First I got the faulty download file which wouldn't decompress. Then I had to download the second version. Then during the install process I read this message which indicates that the update is for version 7.0 to 7.5 which contradicted what was written on the download page (see image below). It started to make me wonder what was going on.

Then I launched from my regular alias on my desktop and received a message about a missing extension. Eventually I get that sorted, 7.5b is up and running and then I get the psycho 8 bit palette problem. Next I want to check if my Presets are still in tack. So I open the Surface Editor, open the Preset shelf and then the Surface editor has disappears. I think you can understand that I was starting to get a little frustrated at that point.

Anyway I think I've got it sorted now. Thanks for your help. sorry again for the grief.

MStrickland
03-07-2003, 10:49 PM
Chuck,

It doesn't seem to be possible to add a thread in the support section. (I, for one, would really like to know why the old OS 9 and earlier MEMORY SETTINGS have returned to 7.5b for OS X -- the world's best memory-managing OS) -- ?????

Thanks,
Michael



Originally posted by Chuck
The Mac beta testers did not encounter the problem you are having. They tested with both OS9 and OSX. As you recall, they tested your entire previous list of items and I posted the results.

If you are willing, please start a thread in the Mac support section, let us know your configuration and what options you chose during the install, and we can go to work on figuring out the source of the problems you are having. A good first option to consider given the image you've posted, would be your video drivers.

Castius
03-08-2003, 12:42 AM
Just on a side note why don't we get to see all the bugs fixed in the readme or anywhere else. It would be really nice to see whats been fixed. and posible even a list of bugs still being worked on. I know i have brought this up before but i really feel that it's inportant to have a place to look and see what is broken and whats not. We all know there are bugs but it would be nice to say ok that is a documented bug and i know to avoid this or this is how to work around.

colkai
03-08-2003, 03:54 AM
Chuck,
I cannot for the life of me get dvview.p to load. I always get a '0 plugins found' message, or "failed to laod external plug-in".

Has anyone else reported this?

Chuck
03-08-2003, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by colkai
Chuck,
I cannot for the life of me get dvview.p to load. I always get a '0 plugins found' message, or "failed to laod external plug-in".

Has anyone else reported this?

I've seen it, but that was on a PC with Win NT 4 and no firewire ports, and the engineering staff informed that would be expected. What's your config?

colkai
03-08-2003, 09:26 AM
I'm running Win98SE.
AMD Athlon XP1800+ CPU .. Mobo is a Gigabyte GA-7ZXE, with a Pinnacle Firewire card (Studio DV IEEE-1394) using the 'Texas instruments OHCI Compliant IEEE-1394 Host Controller' driver in my windows system settings.

The firewire card was automatically seen by Windows at install, so I'm guessing that maybe dvview.p doesn't see it, or doesn't like it!

The tech spec for the card (I run it with a Canon MV400I digital Camcorder). Max 400 Mbit/s bi-directional.
Compliant with OHCI and digital8 devices. 32-Bit PCI (2.1 compliant) with bus mastering.

Dunno if any of that will help to shed light on the problem.

Apart from that, everything seems to run fine, though rendering speed is down by a couple of seconds per frame compared to 7.5
Though I figure that's because it is probably optimised for P4 rather than AMD AthlonXP specs.

warm regards,
-Colkai

supermacguy
03-08-2003, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by Castius
Just on a side note why don't we get to see all the bugs fixed in the readme or anywhere else. It would be really nice to see whats been fixed. and posible even a list of bugs still being worked on. I know i have brought this up before but i really feel that it's inportant to have a place to look and see what is broken and whats not. We all know there are bugs but it would be nice to say ok that is a documented bug and i know to avoid this or this is how to work around.

I agree. I would like to see the list of fixes, know problems, or fixes in progess listed in a seperate file or web page when I download an updater. It simply makes life easy to know what is happening, and if *my* particular problem has been addressed, and with several other folks here, whether the updater can be applied while I have a job due soon, or if I should wait for some down time.
Thanks

eblu
03-08-2003, 10:44 AM
I myself had very few problems with this update, but it Did screw up permissions where it should not have been doing ANYTHING. the fact that the installer said that it was upgrading 7 to 7.5, and that the installation Does things it shouldn't, does not fill me with happy thoughts about Newtek.
I feel pretty bad for my co-worker, a Die hard Newtek fan, on a pc no less, and he has to re-install LW after the mess that the installer made of his hard drive. I don't even think he has seen the extent of the damage.

This update was sloppily built, just my opinion.

mlinde
03-09-2003, 11:55 AM
I have a couple of minor comments about the update itself, although so far everything appears to be working fine after I did the regular "repair disk permissions" after upgrade procedure I've started. FWIW, to the Mac OS X LW people -- anytime you install or upgrade ANY application (or software update) you should run disk permissions repair utilities. It's built into OS 10.2.x in the Disk Utility application, and an 10.1.x version is available from Apple in their support section of the website, although you do have to hunt for it.

Now my comments about the update:
1) I realize that 90% of the engineers working on LW are on PCs. I accept this, but Chuck, you guys should at least put an effort into cross-platform documentation. When the update/download page says it's a .exe file, that's great if you know Windows (some people don't). Most of the limited documentation is Windows-centric, and it doesn't need to be, one or two sentences addressing the Mac version would be useful.
2) The original download wasn't a useable Mac file. For whatever reason, there it is.
3) The download/update says 7.0 to 7.5 in the built-in read-me. Now I realize it will update 7.0, but accuracy counts here. Why not say "update 7.x to 7.5b?" This is (from what I've seen) a universally understood and acceptable method of documentation.
4) Mac beta testing. I'm not asking to get in on this. I only hope you have someone who isn't sitting in front of a Mac for the first time doing all your beta testing. I know at one point there was an open request for information on a Mac bug, since the person working on it didn't know very much about the Mac. Not the best way to test an advanced application. If you don't have outside Macintosh-based beta testers, you should. It provides you access to a wider range of Mac systems and configurations than you could possibly afford at NewTek.

That's my 2 cents.

roberthurt
03-09-2003, 12:56 PM
I'd like to chime in on a copule issue that really bugged me in this updated, in additions to the ones mlinde and others have listed:

New features: When new features (e.g. surface depth gradient) are added to a version, *please* include something in the readme a little more extensive that a single sentence stating that it exists. Granted all the hours the programmers spend adding these cool things, it's really frustrating for users to have to guess and experiment just to figure out what they do and how to get them to work.

Mac beta testing: While I realize you do of course test releases before they go out, I have to seriously question whether you have enough Mac testers to cover all the typical OS/hardware configurations. My 7.5b experience was to install it, open one of my last 7.5 scenes, and to instantly discover lighting was broken (http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1564) and that the update is unusable. I then spent literally HOURS testing all kinds of variations on installation to verify that the problem wasn't related to a mistake I made. That is way too much effort to invest in a final release and it has naturally left me rather frustrated. Then, to return to a usable setup I had to waste lots of extra time reinstalling from CD and updating to the previous version.

Granted the number of others chiming in with this problem (and the fact the same thing happens to me on 2 different macs/installations), I don't see that this should have been that difficult to uncover during beta testing if you had a reasonable cross-section of participants.

Install versions: Granted the fact that version upgrades are, let's be honest, often unusuable at first in production environments due to anomalies, I would be delighted if Newtek adopted a policy of having EACH version of LW create and use its own uniquely named set of preferences. That way it would be much easier to install a 7.5b update alongside a 7.5 version that is still there if needed for compatibility problems. It's possible, but very awkward, to test two versions side by side using the configurator of one then the other, but this always resets lots of settings.

Make it easier to test a new release without losing our old setup and these early glitches wouldn't be nearly so frustrating.

riki
03-09-2003, 04:54 PM
I can't load QTTools, just a small problem I guess.

mlinde
03-09-2003, 05:53 PM
riki, have you gone through the systemic corrections to see if you can get QTTools to load?

Standard CRX - OS X
1) Repair disk permissions
2) Delete/rebuild preference files
3) check/correct cmdline files for correct pref directory listings
4) Re-install latest version of QT

I always repair disk permissions after ANY installation, because the installer needs to modify permissions, and many of them do not get corrected afterwards (this is true of installers from Apple on down to John Smith the shareware guy). In addition, some people have noticed that the Software Update version of QT 6.0.1 messed up their QuickTime, requiring a full-reinstall of QT.

riki
03-09-2003, 06:03 PM
Thanks Mlinde, I'm on OS9.2 and I actually initalized my hard drive before the update and reinstalled OS9.2. But I can try some of those things like reinstalling QT. many thanks

Rory_L
03-09-2003, 07:36 PM
Stranahan said:-

Or the installer could back up your config files for you - that's a nice friendly installer idea. I reckon 95% of LightWave users don't know what or where the config files are - and why should they? It's nothing they should think about...
Yes! When I drive a car I don`t want to even think about what`s under the hood. What`s a spark plug???:D Who cares?

R

Beamtracer
03-09-2003, 09:38 PM
There have been numerous people on this forum reporting that their OS X permissions were screwed up by the installer. I've installed many apps in OS X and have never had this before, until now.

I think a lot of people will be in trouble after their permissions are changed. Not everyone knows about the disk utility in the OS X install disk (in the "file" menu). Maybe the update should be withdrawn until the issue is sorted out.

Red_Oddity
03-10-2003, 06:43 AM
We have some REALLY funky permission screwups on our OSX machines (some even in Korean and Japanese :confused: :confused: :confused: ), and no matter what i do, they always keep on popping back to that language and bogus permission (even after repairs)...can't say the LW update did any worse ;) , better yet, it behaved nicely (better than some of Apple's own updates)

But, who cares around here, the tech staff here probably only reacts when a hacker fries those systems because the security is lacking...