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View Full Version : Should LW be free to Academic institutions and students?



circleofsmoke
02-20-2017, 03:54 AM
I'm just about to buy a suite of macs for a course I run and would love to install LW on them but currently my institution tells me its too expensive when we can add Maya for free - should LW be free for learning to increase its user base?

djwaterman
02-20-2017, 04:00 AM
Well to be fair to your students, teach them the software that will get them work, and that's Maya.

kopperdrake
02-20-2017, 05:30 AM
Yes it should be free, imho. Have you tried calling NewTek and asking them if they can sort anything out for you - I believe it's been done before.

As far as which software to buy, I'm not so sure that choosing one piece over another at that stage is the most critical factor - choosing a piece of software that will build a solid portfolio as quickly as possible would be the overiding goal for me personally. Youngsters are malleable and can learn quickly - if they have the technical prowess and innate ability in terms of design and execution, then an employer should see that once they've graduated.

Just my tuppence worth.

Snosrap
02-20-2017, 06:46 AM
Well at $195 it is almost free. If they download the 30 day trial and get into it - surely with all their student loan money they can come up with $195. :)

WilliamVaughan
02-20-2017, 06:48 AM
Yes. I've said it for years.

kopperdrake
02-20-2017, 07:53 AM
The difference between $0 and $195 is $195, almost free is pretty subjective depending on your income I guess. The point is, if a college can add fifty seats of Maya for free, their students get it for free, and there are arguments for it including "it's used a lot in industry", then the option to fork out over $10,000 for the same seats (inc exchange costs etc) of LightWave but with the caveat "it's not used so much in industry guys, but it's a bit quicker to learn, oh, and you'll need to hand over $200 or thereabouts to buy your own copy", is a bit harder to justify to the bean counters and those who control purchases.

Speculate to accumulate.

Surrealist.
02-20-2017, 08:03 AM
Yep absolutely. Blender popularity has grown and grown over the years. And I have been saying for sometime now that Autodesk making even the institution versions available was in part a response to this. A year or so before they did this, there was a campaign they were running at siggraph.

"Stand out, don't Blend in"

http://community.foundry.com/discuss/topic/58649

I thought that was interesting.

But what is real interesting is the fact that student awareness and use of Blender has grown quite a lot even in the last few years. Blender courses are popping up at the Uni level. I have talked to students in the last year and they have told me that even 2 years ago, not all students were using Blender. But now, virtually all students have been using Blender even before getting to the Uni. At least in the country where I currently am. And I know that is a factor and it is not exactly the same globally or even in America. But it points to a trend just the same.

More and more people are just ditching the idea of paying for software and using Blender.

At the Uni level I think they should be learning Maya. But I also feel they should be getting a well-rounded education in software. And especially with the next version, there is going to be a lot to like about LightWave as an addition to a pipeline and more and more studios will be using it again. In my opinion. So students will benefit from this greatly. And so, of course, will LW 3D Group in return.

You have a lot of free choices for software as a student now.

LightWave should be one of them. :)

MichaelT
02-20-2017, 08:13 AM
For schools absolutely. But they have an uphill battle with that. 3dsMax & Maya is deeply ingrained in students expectations. The way to work with that, is making sure common tools work with Lightwave. Substance Painter, Substance Designer, Unity, UE4, Photoshop etc.. All those common tools normally associated with game development. And most important... be very very visible. Because let's face it.. game development is a far greater motivation for students, than working in CGI for some movie production. Don't believe me? Just do a google search of any one of those tools, and see how long you will have to look for the most common questions. And what field they are in. Any company not focusing on game development (& making sure to put their tools in students hands) are missing the boat. Obviously I'm biased, but I don't think I am that far off the mark.

lardbros
02-20-2017, 08:14 AM
Should be free in my opinion... unfortunately, it's pretty tricky to police isn't it?
How do you discern a scammer wanting multiple licenses of software or a lecturer from a university/college.

Not saying the original poster is that of course, but it's a just a difficult thing to police. :(

Schwyhart
02-20-2017, 11:28 AM
Should be free in my opinion... unfortunately, it's pretty tricky to police isn't it?
How do you discern a scammer wanting multiple licenses of software or a lecturer from a university/college.

Not saying the original poster is that of course, but it's a just a difficult thing to police. :(

As an instructor for any university/college, you would have credentials. Also, the schools purchasing department would be ordering it, which further verifies that it is indeed an institution purchasing, not an individual. As for students purchasing, they have a student ID and syllabus from a qualifying class.
When I was a student, I had no problem purchasing LW for $195; but for institutions to justify getting 15 or so licenses for $195ea or getting something else for free...that's gonna be a tough sell to the administration.

Schwyhart
02-20-2017, 11:32 AM
When I was a student, Blender wasn't around much (When did that start?).
If I recall, an educational license of Maya was still expensive; it didn't used to be free.
Lightwave, as far as I know, was the cheapest solution for institutions and students.

Times have changed though. In order for LW3DG to stay competitive in the universities, it needs to be free. Which sucks for them because they need the revenue.

Schwyhart
02-20-2017, 11:34 AM
Also, students should consider the upgrade from a educational license to commercial license. Last I checked, upgrading Maya was 4k. Lightwave was about $300.
Blender, well...it's always free.
MODO, used to be about $250 to upgrade to commercial, but they've since changed after the merger. No clue what it is now.

prometheus
02-20-2017, 11:35 AM
I would imagine it as a two pipe input output vision to deal with, where the input would be the free school license and If the schools would start to bring lightwave in to schools, and that is dependent on the price and if there is a need for lightwave in the schools since that is what the business demands, and the business demand is the other end of the pipe.

But basicly..I would chime in on yes, it would make little sense for most school to invest in lightwave if they have to pay for it and if the business market actually demands maya, vray , 3d max experience..it may make some...and little sense if you are specialized, such as that school in barcelona perhaps, but I guess that school is one of the few exceptions..not a common practice within schools that fosters 3d artists.

How to police it all, well..how does autodesk do it? maybe making sure they provide proper information about the school you attend to or program etc, and a follow up on those licenses as to when they expire, I think autodesk has maybe two years (not sure)

Before just providing such free student/ educational license, the would need to somehow investigate if it is motivated in terms of ..will schools adapt Lightwave because there is a demand in the business, or will schoolks adapt anyway regardless of the current demand and the schools themself may se the value for artist learning additional tools yet they may not be on the priority demand list.

Trying to sell an education license to most schools must be like throwing pearls before swine, unless the school is specially dedicated towards fostering lightwawe artists or freelancers...and that with the notion that Autodesk is free for students and maya, 3dmax/vray is considered de facto standard..where lightwave has nothing of value to bring to table...(for most cases)

rustythe1
02-20-2017, 12:09 PM
it has discovery mode as well as trial that runs forever, just limits polycount and water mark

OlaHaldor
02-20-2017, 12:17 PM
Also, students should consider the upgrade from a educational license to commercial license. Last I checked, upgrading Maya was 4k. Lightwave was about $300.
Blender, well...it's always free.
MODO, used to be about $250 to upgrade to commercial, but they've since changed after the merger. No clue what it is now.

I went away from tv/film post-production a couple of years ago to dive into 3D full time. So I was able to get the Foundry Production Collective, which is the full NukeX, Nuke Studio, Mari and Modo pack. It was $250 for a student/graduate license. And is about $1700 to upgrade. But I was told the graduate license which I got is a full commercial license, as an incentive to continue to use their products. And I intend to. I can get a permanent license of all these products when the license ends this May. That's a massive savings of over $7000 ! Of course I did it!


I do think however, student licenses should be free if you can go through all the hoops to get the graduate license, which required me to fill out a form, photo ID + student ID. That will scare off the scammers.. By all means, limit some features if you have to, but it should still be free.
I think Autodesk is doing it right. But their software could be better. ;)

kopperdrake
02-20-2017, 12:32 PM
Circleofsmoke - get in touch with Tony Hall at Vision West Nottinghamshire College in Mansfield - they have a load of LightWave seats and I'm sure he managed to strike a deal. They also run Macs, but I'm not sure for how much longer - personally I'd go with PCs for the buck/bang ratio. He's on the forums, tonyhall007.

TheLexx
02-20-2017, 12:53 PM
I don't know how high Lightwave's customer base is but I'm guessing there is probably a good chunk more who use it but don't necessarily watch the forums. After the hurdle of fundamental code rewriting is over, I don't think Newtek will be particularly idle with versions.

Rather than diverting resources monitoring a new licensing system to see who is legit or not (esp at that price), I feel the effort should be in turbocharging learning paths on the sites of the usual suspects like Pluralsight, Gnomon, Lynda, etc, where students expect to look. As it is, all the wonderful resources like RebelHill, Ryan Roye, Kat, WV have to be discovered rather than being where learners would first check.

So I hope the user base will grow from filtering down from usage after the next release, with the learning curves always there for those who are curious enough to follow through. The next release of LW should, of course, be a full event with all the ticker tape and fanfare Newtek can muster, with a Brad Pitt promo and everything.

vonpietro
02-20-2017, 01:30 PM
when they move to lightwave next - maybe they should think about making lw 11 free =)

at gnomon - talking about lightwave feels embarresing. =(

lardbros
02-20-2017, 01:59 PM
As an instructor for any university/college, you would have credentials. Also, the schools purchasing department would be ordering it, which further verifies that it is indeed an institution purchasing, not an individual. As for students purchasing, they have a student ID and syllabus from a qualifying class.
When I was a student, I had no problem purchasing LW for $195; but for institutions to justify getting 15 or so licenses for $195ea or getting something else for free...that's gonna be a tough sell to the administration.

I'm sure you would have credentials, but it's actually quite easy to falsify stuff. When a company needs to make money, it's a tough choice to make. Autodesk can seriously afford to give educational licenses out there (they never used to though) but NewTek is a private company, and to throw free licenses out everywhere can't be that easy.

I'm on your side though... I personally think it makes sense to try and set up educational facilities with free licenses!
I totally agree though... if you invest in the young ones, they are most likely going to continue using it, or maybe have fond memories of that piece of software, and consider buying into it when they begin employment.

erikals
02-20-2017, 03:22 PM
Should LW be free to Academic institutions and students?

Yes.

bobakabob
02-20-2017, 03:26 PM
It is very problematic. I work in college and university environments (which presently involve teaching Maya and Zbrush) and because Autodesk software is free there are understandably puzzled faces in departmental teams when alternatives such as LW are suggested with a price tag. Zbrush licenses are also very expensive. Interestingly the depts are extremely sniffy about Blender, but I just can't muster enthusiasm to fight for it (am ok with Max, XSI, Maya, Zbrush with some limited experience of C4d but have genuinely struggled to get beyond the initial disorientating Blender cube, widget and mouse click annoyances. Blender is clearly a hit with many users and gloriously free so I do feel an obligation to redouble efforts to learn but... ).When discussing employability and the future with students there are raised eyebrows once it hits young artists that using Maya might be the norm in institutions but should they go independent / freelance once leaving university it will er... no longer be free. Lightwave has always had an underdog image but this could be more effectively marketed as a low cost professional - and accessible - alternative.

TheLexx
02-20-2017, 04:26 PM
@ bobakabob, I'm guessing you mean a course very similar to this one (https://www.shu.ac.uk/study-here/find-a-course/ba-honours-games-design-fulltime#fees), where given the fees are approx Ģ12,500 per year for 3 to 4 years, is Newtek really being that unreasonable ? From what you describe over Blender, it seems as if there is a certain cartel mentality in the hallowed halls of learning. Do students who attend typically own no software at all, and are those who pass automatically placed into employment in the industry ?

Surrealist.
02-20-2017, 11:38 PM
The bottom line is this. It does not matter LightWave's place in the industry which could be argued forever. Nor does it matter the level of technology or the production market, game or film LightWave can cater to. It does not matter if, when where or how or why a uni or any institution will or will not offer a LightWave course. Nor how often. Nor does it matter what students will or will not likely need to use in the marketplace. None of these things can be determined definitively beyond speculation. Certainly it is clear. Anyone with half a brain cell in the center of a brick for a brain could see that Maya and other AD products are the most offered by unis and used in the "industry" (whoever can actually define that please step up).

All that matters is that any student, at any time or place, for any reason has the opportunity to access LightWave for free. And any institution any where on the globe, for any imaginable reason, or unimaginable reason, decides to offer LightWave, can simply just qualify though a simple online form and get LightWave installed in any lab of any size with no need to have a budget for software.

The reason to do this is so stupid simple it only takes 1/4 of a brain cell in the center of a brick for a brain to see why.

It should not even have to be justified or explained. In my opinion.

samurai_x
02-20-2017, 11:42 PM
If they didn't listen to William V, they're not going to listen to random users on the forum who they don't even communicate with about lightwave.

CaptainMarlowe
02-21-2017, 12:12 AM
FWIW I also agree with many here, it should indeed be free for schools and students, it's the best way to grow a user base from young pals instead of counting on aging ones like many of us.
As for releasing a free, unlimited version of an older release when Next/2017 is out, why not also ? This has been done by many companies before, but if so, these free versions should not be eligible to the discounted upgrade price, because if not, nobody would pay the full price anymore except for new licenses (well, if they withdraw their everlasting "add a seat" promotion, ofc).

robertn2k
02-21-2017, 01:04 AM
The difference between $0 and $195 is $195, almost free is pretty subjective depending on your income I guess. The point is, if a college can add fifty seats of Maya for free, their students get it for free, and there are arguments for it including "it's used a lot in industry", then the option to fork out over $10,000 for the same seats (inc exchange costs etc) of LightWave but with the caveat "it's not used so much in industry guys, but it's a bit quicker to learn, oh, and you'll need to hand over $200 or thereabouts to buy your own copy", is a bit harder to justify to the bean counters and those who control purchases.

Speculate to accumulate.

Well for schools Lightwave comes in 5 seat lab packs for $795 so thats $159.00 per seat. Our Lightwave course is part of the Digital Media Production major track and given Lightwaves strong TV roots makes sense for us as another tool in the kit we want students to have to tell stories. I agree that Lightwave should be free for students but even if they just extended the trial period that would be a huge help. A 90 day trial would get a student through a semester and makes more sense than a 30 day trial. I still feel having worked with some of the other 3D applications that Lightwave is one of the easiest to learn and teach.

Schwyhart
02-21-2017, 01:26 AM
Just saw the 5 seat license. Also, it looks like that's for the initial license. Upgrades are $295...that's $59 a seat. Not bad...basically free.

circleofsmoke
02-21-2017, 01:27 AM
some very interesting points in all of this, I like lightwave as an intro to 3D modelling because ironically as other packages have beocome more complex - lightwave is still refreshingly simple and easy to grasp.
My feeling is if you are making money from a tool you should pay - if you're on the fringes looking in - ie developing some curiosity/learning - you shouldn't have to - its a commercial / business orientated product. (many caveats apply of course)

TheLexx
02-21-2017, 04:17 AM
...1/4 of a brain cell in the center of a brick for a brain...I guess that would be me then.

Some years ago, I was working as a porter in a college. This was irregular shift patterns on irregular rotating days, so involved weekends, evenings, early and late starts. It was somewhat later in life I finally found and decided to - cliche alert - follow my dreams and "go 3D". I took the plunge and seriously signed up for one of the top London schools doing an online Maya distance learning course. In my enthusiasm I paid, from memory, Ģ6,500.00 in advance because there was a Ģ500.00 discount for paying in advance. They told me I required an Autodesk student learning usb stick costing, from memory, Ģ275.00 which I bought from their company.

I completed the Week 1 assignment which was making and posing a human figure using primitive shapes. The Week 2 assignment was making a bowl of fruit, which to be honest started to challenge me (he started using proxy meshes which confused me, to my mind "do as I do" without any "why").

My employment became unexpectedly chaotic where I filled in a lot of shifts when they had an unexpected staff departure, so I got behind on the course. I was still working on the lessons and communicated to them that they would see more than one submission during the first term break. They got back to me saying the tutors didn't want to mark more than one at a time. I was really surprised because the whole course was marketed as "learn in your own time at your own pace", not to mention support for job placement in - wait for it - "the industry". I was forced to watch as my entire fees just vanished in a puff of smoke (not unlike a bowl of fruit myself). I did query this with them, but with their own staff changes no one gave a [email protected]

Very disheartened at myself, I considered doing some advance private study of Maya with a possibility of going again for round two (naivety, desperation, spilt milk syndrome, etc.). It was in the aftermath of that I saw a commercial Lightwave 8 for sale on Ebay. "Lightwave ? Hey, isn't that the quirky sh!t one which comes in two halves ?". I bought it. Then a flash sale came up and I am on 2015. I found this community. I discovered learning resources and am slowly going through them. And I feel completely honoured. So with genuine and the greatest respect to everyone here, I politely extend my middle finger to those institutions which feel Newtek owes them free licences like throwing around confetti. And the last time I checked, the school had raised prices to around Ģ12,000.

By year end 2017, I hope to make use of the LW gallery on these forums and have my own little showreel. My opinion.

kopperdrake
02-21-2017, 04:32 AM
With all respect TheLexx, I don't think anyone has asked NewTek to 'throw around free licenses like confetti' - the licenses are managed. The reality check I've seen personally is some kids barely out of home trying to scrape the cash together to afford a course, and rushing straight out after the college day to their part-time work to bring some money in.

So great for you, you plucked up the money to pay for the course, kudos for following your dream to the extreme (and I'm being deadly sincere here, not many would go to such lengths), but there are many who simply cannot, or do not have the capacity, to do that. I'm sure we all have stories of hardship in the past, but it shouldn't shield us from the fact in question. LightWave needs more young users on board, and allowing institutions to have licenses for free will help pave that way. Sure, some will get left on the shelf, or sneered at, but that has absolutely no impact on those of us making money with it. If anything it helps us as we are more likely to bump into fellow LightWave users in the wider world whilst working on projects, will make online libraries more likely to support LightWave and generally make our camp all that bit larger.

And please, there really is no need for middle fingers around here - we're all adults. Have a thumb instead :thumbsup: and look forward to seeing your gallery work :)

TheLexx
02-21-2017, 04:46 AM
@ kopperdrake - You're ultimately right of course. Apologies, but thanks for letting me get it off my chest. Thumb up. :thumbsup:

lardbros
02-21-2017, 06:32 AM
I guess that would be me then.

Some years ago, I was working as a porter in a college. This was irregular shift patterns on irregular rotating days, so involved weekends, evenings, early and late starts. It was somewhat later in life I finally found and decided to - cliche alert - follow my dreams and "go 3D". I took the plunge and seriously signed up for one of the top London schools doing an online Maya distance learning course. In my enthusiasm I paid, from memory, Ģ6,500.00 in advance because there was a Ģ500.00 discount for paying in advance. They told me I required an Autodesk student learning usb stick costing, from memory, Ģ275.00 which I bought from their company.

I completed the Week 1 assignment which was making and posing a human figure using primitive shapes. The Week 2 assignment was making a bowl of fruit, which to be honest started to challenge me (he started using proxy meshes which confused me, to my mind "do as I do" without any "why").

My employment became unexpectedly chaotic where I filled in a lot of shifts when they had an unexpected staff departure, so I got behind on the course. I was still working on the lessons and communicated to them that they would see more than one submission during the first term break. They got back to me saying the tutors didn't want to mark more than one at a time. I was really surprised because the whole course was marketed as "learn in your own time at your own pace", not to mention support for job placement in - wait for it - "the industry". I was forced to watch as my entire fees just vanished in a puff of smoke (not unlike a bowl of fruit myself). I did query this with them, but with their own staff changes no one gave a [email protected]

Very disheartened at myself, I considered doing some advance private study of Maya with a possibility of going again for round two (naivety, desperation, spilt milk syndrome, etc.). It was in the aftermath of that I saw a commercial Lightwave 8 for sale on Ebay. "Lightwave ? Hey, isn't that the quirky sh!t one which comes in two halves ?". I bought it. Then a flash sale came up and I am on 2015. I found this community. I discovered learning resources and am slowly going through them. And I feel completely honoured. So with genuine and the greatest respect to everyone here, I politely extend my middle finger to those institutions which feel Newtek owes them free licences like throwing around confetti. And the last time I checked, the school had raised prices to around Ģ12,000.

By year end 2017, I hope to make use of the LW gallery on these forums and have my own little showreel. My opinion.

Interesting, frustrating, but ultimately happy story! Glad you saw the Light and found us, probably one of THE most helpful communities online :)
LightWave is spoken of badly by many, but it's still a brilliant tool!

Good luck with your goal of a gallery submission... and welcome to the team :)

raymondtrace
02-21-2017, 06:54 AM
unfortunately, it's pretty tricky to police isn't it?
How do you discern a scammer wanting multiple licenses of software or a lecturer from a university/college.

Skip the idea of free because it will indeed invite abuse. But one does not need to go too far from it. NewTek could charge a $10/seat license and require an official purchase order from an institution (or payment from a credit card associated with the address of the institution).

...or NewTek can utilize the same intrusive monitoring that Autodesk uses to make sure their educational licenses are being used properly.

In regard to students...I cannot imagine how $195 would be a problem for a student that is earnest about 3D (and will likely run off to abuse that license for commercial work). I paid much more for practical art supplies in my BC era of learning.

02-21-2017, 07:08 AM
I am torn on this.

I have two of the five seat sets, sitting on 2015. I have attempted to keep the licenses up to date but it has been a challenge. Made even worse by some department of ed guy telling me, "You can't get certified since you don't teach the industry standards."
What he meant was Autodesk tools.
Fast foward to today and Autodesk tools abound.

Lightwave holds a special place here; many students know it as Their 3d program. But I can't tell them to go home and sign up for their student copy. Three years of Autodesk, yup. A lifetime of Blender. Bucks for LW.

LW can be understood by middle schoolers in how accessible it is to get something done.


It would be great if an institution could be licensed to teach LW without a cost.

roboman
02-21-2017, 08:13 AM
Yep, Lightwave is worth the $200, I put out that much and a lot more for it several times. Yes, a student in most developed countries can manage to get $200 if they really need to. The key word is need. They can get "free" copies of what the majority of the "real" studios use, 'free' copies of what the majority of game makers use and the big up and coming Blender is free. The question is why would a student pay for software when they can get software for "free", that they are told is better and more used. In the end it's a marketing thing and up to Newtek. I bought it back in the Amiga days, because it was the only good program that I could afford. I do understand Newteks side, back in the late 90's and early 2000 I was getting under cut by lots of students doing 'paid' work with their student ver of 3D Max. People will abuse the terms of their 'free' software. It's totally a marketing thing to decide if it's worth it in the long run

bobakabob
02-22-2017, 06:20 AM
@ bobakabob, I'm guessing you mean a course very similar to this one (https://www.shu.ac.uk/study-here/find-a-course/ba-honours-games-design-fulltime#fees), where given the fees are approx Ģ12,500 per year for 3 to 4 years, is Newtek really being that unreasonable ? From what you describe over Blender, it seems as if there is a certain cartel mentality in the hallowed halls of learning. Do students who attend typically own no software at all, and are those who pass automatically placed into employment in the industry ?

Maya is perceived as "the industry standard" along with Zbrush and as the former is free it's a no brainer for FE and HE institutions to go for it. However, it's important students realise the realities of post uni / college life so there is a big emphasis on preparing for industry and / or freelancing with visiting speakers and visits. Networking is crucial to get on in any industry of course. I try to help students understand that software isn't necessarily free when they start work and there are alternatives. Although I personally love LW Zbrush and Maya I'm steadfastly objective, only advising trialling software and using "whatever works".

As for finding work, the students who land jobs are usually the ones who are curious, turn up to lectures and work extremely hard at developing their skills. What they get out of an educational environment is being surrounded by like minded creative people and peer to peer learning as well as meeting people from all areas of creative industries. As I was self taught I missed out on this, though the Internet and forums like this are an incredible resource. It's a personal choice as to whether to go to uni or go it alone - and of course there is the issue of fees. In an ideal world all education would be free. The solo route potentially misses out on the sheer creative buzz, focused learning, study skills such as time management and industry networking.

Btw my background is as an educator in Media related programmes and (now occasional) freelancer. I taught myself 3D via LW 5.5 and later Max in education, in the mid 90s. Back then there was certainly a lot of work available as 3D was just beginning. It was great being contracted to build 3D models using LW a good way to learn at the same time and pick up work in education. I owe a lot to LW being priced at street level and generous people on this forum who are glad to share knowledge and inspiration. Despite being an English / linguistics grad I always kept up illustration and although I wasn't that great there was a demand from mid 80s onwards as digital technology began.

WilliamVaughan
02-22-2017, 06:34 AM
The bottom line is this. It does not matter LightWave's place in the industry which could be argued forever. Nor does it matter the level of technology or the production market, game or film LightWave can cater to. It does not matter if, when where or how or why a uni or any institution will or will not offer a LightWave course. Nor how often. Nor does it matter what students will or will not likely need to use in the marketplace. None of these things can be determined definitively beyond speculation. Certainly it is clear. Anyone with half a brain cell in the center of a brick for a brain could see that Maya and other AD products are the most offered by unis and used in the "industry" (whoever can actually define that please step up).

All that matters is that any student, at any time or place, for any reason has the opportunity to access LightWave for free. And any institution any where on the globe, for any imaginable reason, or unimaginable reason, decides to offer LightWave, can simply just qualify though a simple online form and get LightWave installed in any lab of any size with no need to have a budget for software.

The reason to do this is so stupid simple it only takes 1/4 of a brain cell in the center of a brick for a brain to see why.

It should not even have to be justified or explained. In my opinion.


+100

lardbros
02-22-2017, 06:53 AM
The bottom line is this. It does not matter LightWave's place in the industry which could be argued forever. Nor does it matter the level of technology or the production market, game or film LightWave can cater to. It does not matter if, when where or how or why a uni or any institution will or will not offer a LightWave course. Nor how often. Nor does it matter what students will or will not likely need to use in the marketplace. None of these things can be determined definitively beyond speculation. Certainly it is clear. Anyone with half a brain cell in the center of a brick for a brain could see that Maya and other AD products are the most offered by unis and used in the "industry" (whoever can actually define that please step up).

All that matters is that any student, at any time or place, for any reason has the opportunity to access LightWave for free. And any institution any where on the globe, for any imaginable reason, or unimaginable reason, decides to offer LightWave, can simply just qualify though a simple online form and get LightWave installed in any lab of any size with no need to have a budget for software.

The reason to do this is so stupid simple it only takes 1/4 of a brain cell in the center of a brick for a brain to see why.

It should not even have to be justified or explained. In my opinion.

Wholeheartedly agree too.

It would take a bit of administration to sort that stuff out... but I DO think in the long-run it'd be well worth it.

Ryan Roye
02-22-2017, 07:06 AM
+100

+101

djwaterman
02-22-2017, 07:30 AM
There's nothing to lose because I doubt there are many educational institutions left that are still buying multiple LW licences, what with all the free options. Might as well throw your hat in the ring. But I'd wait for the next release anyway.

Surrealist.
02-22-2017, 01:48 PM
I think there is quite a lot to loose. I would hope so. I don't think the LW ED numbers are that insignificant. Not as much as AD had to loose of course but...

As much as I'd like to paint a benevolent, philanthropic halo of altruistic light around the heads of Autodesk's management team for tossing away a sizeable source of income in student and institution licensing, in favor of "doing the right thing" for students; I find it hard to fathom it had anything to do with a direct relationship to current number of seats being sold and the loss therein. Not directly. But rather, indirectly thus spending that exact amount on marketing. The same money lost, or rather "spent" on marketing, pays back exponential returns. The kinds of returns no marketing dollar could buy at any price. It is pure genius.

LightWave might have less a share of this market. But the same concept of offering less expensive licenses to students, is not just about creating love in the community and giving back. Though marketing can push that. Of course. Without really lying. And I am sure people are happy to play that card. It is a feel good thing. And it is truly a "do the right thing". But from a business sense, you can not buy that kind of good will. Good will is the most lasting and valuable asset a company has. It just so happens that this is one of those very clever marking ploys that is also truly a very good thing. And that is what makes it so valuable. And why it pays back exponentially any loss (expense) incurred. Offering free software to educators and students is more costly in loss but also more exponentially valuable in the long run in gains.

Hey so I am not in marketing by profession. But I am pretty sure that is the thinking.

quakebox
02-25-2017, 08:13 PM
Yes it should although I doubt colleges and institutions will consider LightWave over Maya since LightWave has some issues like a broken undo system.

prometheus
02-26-2017, 05:39 AM
Yes it should although I doubt colleges and institutions will consider LightWave over Maya since LightWave has some issues like a broken undo system.

Well..there are probably loads of things broken or missing in lightwave that maya has more stable, and things the other way around...the fact it has poor undo system in layout I think is just a fraction compared to how things are established already, meaning Maya and max, vray is de facto standard mostly..and what business is requiring in the ads, that is more likely to have a larger impact than going in to seperate things like that, it however as a part make up the sum in the end to why other software may be considered as de facto standard...itīs still a fraction in my opinion.

The statement you mentioned is perhaps a part of it..but it comes across as The major issue..which I think itīs not.

Exclaim
02-26-2017, 02:42 PM
Couldn't they just do a full version commercial license at a discount for students? Its what Adobe did right?

MichaelT
02-26-2017, 05:12 PM
Eventually those students will end up in a workplace somewhere, and somewhere a manager will ask the question: -Which tool can we use to do this? And the student will raise their hand, and mention the tool the know by heart. It really isn't more complicated than that.

prometheus
02-27-2017, 10:41 AM
Eventually those students will end up in a workplace somewhere, and somewhere a manager will ask the question: -Which tool can we use to do this? And the student will raise their hand, and mention the tool the know by heart. It really isn't more complicated than that.

Isnīt that a bit simplified in regards to all kinds of workplaces there are out there?
I mean it is probably working that way when that manager or workplace doesnīt know at all where to go and lend the decision to be made by the student that raises the hand and tells them what to use:D
What about already established pipelines at certain places? I canīt see how that would be the consensous to approach it, unless they feel they can afford a new lightwave license and they are sure the student may pull it off...I can imagine it is the student that mostly need to adapt to the standard in business, not the student telling...I am doing this way since I am mostly comfortable with this..and that.

For newly started business with no previous set pipeline or direction..such thing may work just fine though.

I myself was self taught in Lightwave, I had some minor 3d course..then started to work at a gym company mainly doing illustrator work, but they also saw I had some 3d skills and wondered if we could do the machines in 3d instead of taking photos..which was quite a hazzle to do with a very expensive photographer and also setting the heavy machines up for photosessions etc.
So we did tests with solidworks to ligthwave and the result was good enough for publishing, so that is what I did for a while..but this was not a company especially focused on illustration or 3d graphics, so they had little knowledge about it except doing the main construction in solidworks, so based on what I knew my advice worked out..so in such case your statement is sort of true, but generally I canīt see how that would apply.

Michael

kopperdrake
02-27-2017, 01:18 PM
Softly softly catchy monkey. The more that know it, the more that will end up using it professionally for whatever reason. It's that simple. There's always a niche job that will mean the student gets to use it. Or several freelancers might get together to form a company, that's not unrealistic. There's no silver bullet, but the academic option is a no-brainer belt of ammo that may as well be used.

GandB
02-27-2017, 09:47 PM
I, and a few others here, had mentioned this a few years ago. We were given quite the tongue lashing. Gave up on it, and moved on.

I still think it's a good way to get LW in a more relevant light, amongst the up and coming artists. But I'm focusing on Blender at this point.

samurai_x
02-27-2017, 10:48 PM
Eventually those students will end up in a workplace somewhere, and somewhere a manager will ask the question: -Which tool can we use to do this? And the student will raise their hand, and mention the tool the know by heart. It really isn't more complicated than that.

Not really. They'll be retrained to use whatever is the pipeline in that studio. Right now its mostly maya.
If you use it everyday its really not that bad to learn new software and you get paid to do it.

sami
02-28-2017, 12:31 AM
Bad idea. This would eliminate the $600 income that LW3DG gets from those 3 students in eastern Europe who haven't had an Internet connection since 2005.

lardbros
02-28-2017, 06:24 AM
Not really. They'll be retrained to use whatever is the pipeline in that studio. Right now its mostly maya.
If you use it everyday its really not that bad to learn new software and you get paid to do it.

Maybe at some studios yes, everyone where I work uses 3dsMax... but actually, I work faster in LightWave, so I use that as well. I know there are other studios where they'll just buy in the tool that you get the work done in fastest. The latest LW Newsletter says it too... for The Last Guardian, yes they didn't use it for the animation (like they did for Shadow of the Collossus: http://www.gameanim.com/2007/09/18/shedding-light-on-the-shadow/ or http://www.froyok.fr/documents/making_of_sotc.pdf ) but the lead guy there is highly proficient in LW, so he uses that.

If we're working on things together, and I need to use 3dsMax, I model in LightWave and export (flawlessly) to 3dsMax.

Also, there are things where LightWave worked better than 3dsMax, so I rendered all passes out of 3dsMax, then used LightWave to render out the particle pass, using Realflow particles and Instancing. Tried it in 3dsMax and it slowed to a crawl and render times were insane... but LightWave chewed through it all perfectly and rendered extremely quickly! The result worked, and no one knew any better!

samurai_x
02-28-2017, 06:54 AM
Maybe at some studios yes, everyone where I work uses 3dsMax... but actually,



But you're not a fresh grad entry level are you? The topic is about students and academic institutions getting free lightwave.
Few studios will hire a fresh grad if you only know smaller appz. Unless they're willing to train you and you have a really good reel.
You're competing with freshgrads that know maya already and you know modo for example. Good luck with that.

Autodesk had the foresight to offer free licenses to schools that would benefit them in the future.

Surrealist.
02-28-2017, 07:41 AM
Blender is already being taught in schools. Students are already learning Blender on the side even before hitting the uni. More and more shops are using Blender. There is a huge market for software that Maya and AD never even reaches.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te9an_-fWTU&list=PLa1F2ddGya__l2Tk4zzq8c6CNGPCjQaS4&index=6

7:00 in. Talk about how Blender has gone viral in manufacturing.

Not related to LightWave directly. The point? You can not make assumptions about how software will be used where and how. The market is extremely diverse.

MichaelT
02-28-2017, 09:12 AM
Not really. They'll be retrained to use whatever is the pipeline in that studio. Right now its mostly maya.
If you use it everyday its really not that bad to learn new software and you get paid to do it.

And the first job I had abroad (UK) they did the same thing, but in 3ds max. Doesn't change what I said. The reason they are as widely spread as they are.. is because they put it in as many hands as they can. You want as many doors open as possible, and not close doors and give up. Simply because you believe in a status quo.

prometheus
02-28-2017, 09:19 AM
Not related to LightWave directly. The point? You can not make assumptions about how software will be used where and how. The market is extremely diverse.

That doesnīt sound right, I would say it sounds wrong, and it depends on the person who makes the assumptions..and I assume there are people knowing a lot more about the market than others.
Because the market is extremely diverse...doesnīt mean there are folks not able to generate good assumptions, itīs a completely different matter regarding those able to do so..may be little in numbers.

And apart from depending on who makes the assumption, it is also highly dependent on areas ..such as foremost which country, which area etc...I am utterly convinced that I can say the market isnīt extremely diverse in sweden, I couldnīt say anything about England with similar certainty..thou I can suspect it is way more diverse there.

lardbros
02-28-2017, 09:20 AM
But you're not a fresh grad entry level are you? The topic is about students and academic institutions getting free lightwave.
Few studios will hire a fresh grad if you only know smaller appz. Unless they're willing to train you and you have a really good reel.
You're competing with freshgrads that know maya already and you know modo for example. Good luck with that.

Autodesk had the foresight to offer free licenses to schools that would benefit them in the future.

I was when I got the job...

Even these days, it's much more about the artwork than what software you use.
You might be awesome at Maya but a complete prick... or you have an amazing showreel, all created in Blender.

I know which person I'd hire!

prometheus
02-28-2017, 09:25 AM
I got a 3d course with 3d max in 1999, the school had that on the agenda and a teacher that made commercials with max at that time..I do not know really what the incitament was to put that on the course, maybe because that was well known, or simply because they had the contact with that teacher 3d artist at that time.

prometheus
02-28-2017, 09:29 AM
I was when I got the job...

Even these days, it's much more about the artwork than what software you use.
You might be awesome at Maya but a complete prick... or you have an amazing showreel, all created in Blender.

I know which person I'd hire!

I would probably think as you...go for the prick :)
seriously, from ads I can see over here, they do not write that down exclusively..that it is your reel that is most important, it may influence a certain company to hire you if you show such great stuff..but it isnīt exclusively what they look for, not here anyway...it is very software specific, but I think that may be due to the 3d graphics industry in sweden which most likely differ a lot from england or the united states for example.

samurai_x
02-28-2017, 09:41 AM
I was when I got the job...

Even these days, it's much more about the artwork than what software you use.
You might be awesome at Maya but a complete prick... or you have an amazing showreel, all created in Blender.

I know which person I'd hire!


How old are you? Was that within 5-10 years ago?

You're making examples that are not realistic.
Who would you hire?
With both applicants who are equally skilled fresh from school. One knows blender, the other knows maya.
You have an autodesk pipeline which is so common today. You know nothing of their personality and work ethic until you hire them and work with them a few weeks.
You're going to hire the blender guy? Lol.
Of course the sane choice is to hire the maya guy.

Surrealist.
02-28-2017, 10:21 AM
That doesnīt sound right, I would say it sounds wrong,

it is also highly dependent on areas ..such as foremost which country, which area etc...I am utterly convinced that I can say the market isnīt extremely diverse in sweden, I couldnīt say anything about England with similar certainty..thou I can suspect it is way more diverse there.

That is an interesting response. Did you even look at that video 7 mins in? Here is a report of a guy working in an industry you and I have no experience in. Before seeing that video do you really think that either of us would have a clue of what role Blender has in the field he is in?

So then, how can anyone make broad stroke assumptions? I don't think anyone can.

Of course it is easy to assume that AD products pretty much rule across the boards in production and in Education. But that is only because we have seen it reported as such. I have no reason to disbelieve it.

But that does not make me a sudden genius on the use of all software in all areas of work or hobby. It is extremely diverse. And you mentioned marketing. Well there you go. To get marketing data you have to do research and study use cases. The very nature of marketing is not to go assuming things. If that was useful there would be no need for the profession.

So, no. You can't make assumptions. No one can. Even in your own country where you think you know what is what. Fact is, unless you survey and study even your own market you are making assumptions.

Assumptions are not useful.

The only thing you can assume - with a reasonable amount of accuracy - is that you can not assume.

prometheus
02-28-2017, 11:06 AM
That is an interesting response. Did you even look at that video 7 mins in? Here is a report of a guy working in an industry you and I have no experience in. Before seeing that video do you really think that either of us would have a clue of what role Blender has in the field he is in?

So then, how can anyone make broad stroke assumptions? I don't think anyone can.

Of course it is easy to assume that AD products pretty much rule across the boards in production and in Education. But that is only because we have seen it reported as such. I have no reason to disbelieve it.

But that does not make me a sudden genius on the use of all software in all areas of work or hobby. It is extremely diverse. And you mentioned marketing. Well there you go. To get marketing data you have to do research and study use cases. The very nature of marketing is not to go assuming things. If that was useful there would be no need for the profession.

So, no. You can't make assumptions. No one can. Even in your own country where you think you know what is what. Fact is, unless you survey and study even your own market you are making assumptions.

Assumptions are not useful.

The only thing you can assume - with a reasonable amount of accuracy - is that you can not assume.

vid is quite irrelevant, it doesn reflect the job market over here.

You do not know what I have experience in...I assume :)
Of course..everything is assumptions to a certain level..If I say to you that I have been watching a lot of reqruitment ads...and I say to you that these ads are extremlly biased towards certain software...of course you could "assume" there would be 50 jobs or companies using lightwave out there in sweden...I would give you my best guess that isnīt the case from what I have seen, you can either trust me or not, go and search swedish ads and see if you may find an "alternative fact" to what is shown there over time.
e
Maybe i am wrong and lightwave tools or blender tools are hiding somewhere else..and doesn not show up in reqruitment ads.

To answer your question about broad stroke assumptions, I made assumptions based on what I see by searching those ads..I am not telling you itīs an absolute fact, I am telling folks that is what I see based on that statistics.
I do no agree with you about ..itīs just because we only have seen it reported as such...that I didnīt even consider, I was going for purely the reqruitment ads I see.

There are perhaps hidden job ads, but I am sure there is also a reason for why Lightwave isnīt showing up as desired knowledge, and itīs not because itīs sort of special or donīt tell anyone...it isnīt hard to make a conclusion that there are industry standards.

The video is quite irrelevant...it is a matter of what role he is working with and what as you yourself put it, it doesnīt relate to the larger general fields, what importance it has for him or other specific target groups is a different matter.

Finally..I disagre completly..No I can make assumptions, and those more versitale in the 3d field than me..Even more so.
And No assumptions can be useful..I beg to differ here as well, and itīs entirely up to you and your knowledge of things and what it is you assume that holds a value if it is good or not...we can not Assume anything else..or can we? :)

prometheus
02-28-2017, 11:22 AM
He...did a search just now for blender, actually found one ad for working with education, and one ad for bakery (blender) :)

Lightwave...nada, zippo..and that is usally the case for years without anything...(that doesnīt mean there isnīt anything out there..just that it may not be much of it)

Maya..well 19 ads out currently..give or take one that may be something else.
Starbreeze, avalanche studios etc...much is focused on the gaming business.

This is a common excerpt based on what often..generally can be seen in sweden, as I said before, market in other countries and areas is probably different.

19 ads...not all shown here based on a free string search(maya) of ads in the swedish states official reqruitment pages ( and letīs not go in to there may be ads elsewhere..cause there isnīt) work elsewhere that isnīt published may be a different thing., and it may occour..but statisticly over time..this is how it often looks, and that tells something doesnīt it?

Edited..further searches on autodesk will yield even more results, where the software in speech may be different, and a lot may be with architecture, so revit and others are often standard saught for knowledge.

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=136155&d=1488306020

Surrealist.
02-28-2017, 12:05 PM
vid is quite irrelevant, it doesn reflect the job market over here.


Yeah I agree. CG Talk is a good global indicator which will show about the same thing. I am just saying you have to look past the usual job ads.

There are jobs on the fringes. By the way I totally see your point. Just that I have experienced and seen or heard of a lot of things we don't normally hear about. I would think there are a lot of places using Blender in your country you will never hear about. Wouldn't you agree?

prometheus
02-28-2017, 12:24 PM
Yeah I agree. CG Talk is a good global indicator which will show about the same thing. I am just saying you have to look past the usual job ads.

There are jobs on the fringes. By the way I totally see your point. Just that I have experienced and seen or heard of a lot of things we don't normally hear about. I would think there are a lot of places using Blender in your country you will never hear about. Wouldn't you agree?

That I agree on completly, but the question for me would be..is it really so that there is a balance towards more of the blender jobs or lightwave jobs, that for some reason is hidden..and they do not want to tell anyone, and less actually put out an reqruitment ad about it, I do not think that is the usual case..there may be exceptions, but I can not just look at 30 ads of auodesk, maya max...and next month the same thing..next month the same thing ...for years, and lightwave none?
So what is more likely if you consider plausability, the case of ..we do not want folks to know we use lightwave for some hidden reason, or the case that it simply is most commonly used and practiced and thatīs what they want as knowledge Mainly.

I do understand there are hidden jobs definitly, heck..not my former workplace where I did render the gym machines was announced, I created that need of using lightwave since I gave that advice, but as I see it...it looks like a very small fraction of similar cases, I find it very peculiar in terms of why Lightwave isnīt out there ...and especially if the case was that reqruiters and companies needed that kind of skills..and I can only see a few explanations for it.

I really would like the case to be different though, since I am a fan of lightwave..for most cases.

as for cases of blender places, I donīt know..thus I can not agree..I can only assume :)
Seriously...I suspect blender Is in fact rising rapidly...Even over here, at least I got two hits, one for bakery and one for a school actually...But still no hitīs for lightwave for ages, and even I have gotten more custom to blender nowadays.
I got to move someday.
Japan next, my finger printing style I have to adjust too I guess :)

I think Rob Powers said..follow your bliss..but if your bliss is to take photos of monkeys in the trees, your literally out on a thin limb in Any tree in sweden trying to get that to work :)
You would either have to move...or start a monkey business import.

Surrealist.
02-28-2017, 01:11 PM
I don't think jobs are hidden intentionally. I think it just works out that way. And yeah, Blender is on the rise, it seems, much more than LightWave.

But I think really to the subject at hand. We have to ask, what is the percentage of students who don't fall into the category of people who even want a corporate or studio job?

How many students have a dream to just make films independently? How many want to start their own business? And would that business necessarily include interfacing with other studios? If they go into advertising and just produce video content it does not matter what they use internally. And as a matter of fact there are a lot of such cases. And these are widely diverse. From medical visualization to court depositions and so on. All completely out of the game and film or VFX market.

So when we are talking about free software to students. It is just a broad statement. It is not trying to say studios or schools are going to replace Maya. That is nonsense. It just means students get the choice on the same level. And students are fairly diverse in interests etc. So their needs will be diverse.

lardbros
02-28-2017, 03:37 PM
How old are you? Was that within 5-10 years ago?

You're making examples that are not realistic.
Who would you hire?
With both applicants who are equally skilled fresh from school. One knows blender, the other knows maya.
You have an autodesk pipeline which is so common today. You know nothing of their personality and work ethic until you hire them and work with them a few weeks.
You're going to hire the blender guy? Lol.
Of course the sane choice is to hire the maya guy.

Not sure my age makes any difference, but it was in the last ten years.

My examples are realistic, as that's exactly what we do.
I've interviewed a few times at my work, and seriously!... We've had AWFUL applicants, with zero social skills but amazing work, they knew all the tools we used but they were strange... and then we've had lovely people, whose work wasn't quite up to scratch. We hire somewhere in between.
Also, if you go to Siggraph these days, many of the studios (of course) want great portfolios, but most of the tools are bespoke anyway... they'll need training up whatever! Best to take someone on who has awesome work and is a nice person, but doesn't necessarily know Maya, than to get a guru of Maya who is a pig-headed *** and disrupts the whole team.

I always remember at university, they used to do placements at places like Psygnosis (a big game studio here in the UK) but one of the best artists from the Uni went for a placement and ended up punching his manager. Zero skills socially, but I bet he did great work.

Apologies for semi derailing the thread guys.

samurai_x
02-28-2017, 07:35 PM
Not sure my age makes any difference, but it was in the last ten years.


Your age is relevant. 15 years ago when guys like stooch, jin choung, etc were still in the forums 3d was still special and getting guys who know 3d was less common.
Its different today. Thousands of students graduate each year. You have hundreds of applicants for a job post. If you're part of HR you quickly filter those who are qualified and those who aren't. Someone who uses blender or any of the smaller appz against several dozen who know maya sends their resume to a company. Guess who's name is filtered out?
I think anyone who's worked for studios for several years have been asked to go through new applicants resumes and I've definitely filtered out applicants who won't fit with what we're using. That time lightwave, max, maya guys were needed. People who weren't proficient with them were filtered out quickly. Time is money and you don't want to get blamed for bringing people in that don't fit. :D
And there's no way you can tell from a few interviews if a guy is a wacko just because he uses maya and a guy is nice because he uses lightwave. Lol.

lardbros
03-01-2017, 01:04 AM
I'm not sure you're taking the points I've made. Or just choosing not to listen.
I can definitely tell when we interview if someone is not going to fit with our team. Or if they have problems socially.

Like I said before... Recruiters at Siggraph are much more likely to choose someone with a great portfolio (yes, even if it's LightWave) over just experience in certain software. Do you think Chris Jones will struggle to get a job because he uses LightWave?
Framestore uses mostly proprietary tools, so there's no point hiring someone purely based on their software proficiency, as they will need to learn the ropes anyway.

erikals
03-01-2017, 01:35 AM
I think Rob Powers said... follow your bliss...
to me, follow your bliss = do your own thing, use the software that suits you.

so if you like archviz, indie films, modeling, or being a Super Star Generalist, LightWave + Houdini Indie is a great combination.


Seriously...I suspect blender Is in fact rising rapidly...Even over here, at least I got two hits, one for bakery and one for a school actually...But still no hitīs for lightwave for ages, and even I have gotten more custom to blender nowadays.
there's no stopping Blender, it's on the rise, and i'm happy that is so.
however, the Ui quirks and lack of decent fluids etc is halting it.
everyone will be using Blender in the future as a main app or an addition.
until then...

bazsa73
03-01-2017, 02:17 AM
there's no stopping Blender, it's on the rise, and i'm happy that is so.
however, the Ui quirks and lack of decent fluids etc is halting it.
everyone will be using Blender in the future as a main app or an addition.
until then...
I use Blender more frequently, Hard Ops is nice, molecular addon is nice, fire and smoke very cool considering that it's free, fluids are lame but good for coffee drops and simple liquid sims.
Blender is great but LW is the main app still, the one where I fuse things together.

samurai_x
03-01-2017, 04:52 AM
I'm not sure you're taking the points I've made. Or just choosing not to listen.
I can definitely tell when we interview if someone is not going to fit with our team. Or if they have problems socially.

Like I said before... Recruiters at Siggraph are much more likely to choose someone with a great portfolio (yes, even if it's LightWave) over just experience in certain software. Do you think Chris Jones will struggle to get a job because he uses LightWave?
Framestore uses mostly proprietary tools, so there's no point hiring someone purely based on their software proficiency, as they will need to learn the ropes anyway.


Your examples are exaggerated.
I've been to a couple of Siggraphs and when they are hiring students or fresh grads they already know these guys will have the typical modelling reels. Which one do you think they will hire from hundreds of applicants with similar reels? The blender guy?
Thereels are mostly generic as to be expected from someone who just finished school.

Chris is not your typical artist. Again you're making exaggerations with your examples. Is Chris still using lightwave he asn't posted anything lightwave related.
Some artists from australia have said that they could not get jobs with using only lightwave or any of the smaller appz.
Leigh, who I believe made the alien emmisary once commented lightwave was a dead end if you need work in AU. Moved to xsi which unfortunately for him is dead.

samurai_x
03-01-2017, 04:55 AM
to me, follow your bliss = do your own thing, use the software that suits you.

so if you like archviz, indie films, modeling, or being a Super Star Generalist, LightWave + Houdini Indie is a great combination.


there's no stopping Blender, it's on the rise, and i'm happy that is so.
however, the Ui quirks and lack of decent fluids etc is halting it.
everyone will be using Blender in the future as a main app or an addition.
until then...

I'll completely move to blender when I'm piss-poor and can't upgrade software and when I'm going to retire from work. :D

Houdini indie is nice if only it weren't rental software that would stop working after a year. Is it still subs annually not maintenance annually?

lardbros
03-01-2017, 06:45 AM
Your examples are exaggerated.
I've been to a couple of Siggraphs and when they are hiring students or fresh grads they already know these guys will have the typical modelling reels. Which one do you think they will hire from hundreds of applicants with similar reels? The blender guy?
Thereels are mostly generic as to be expected from someone who just finished school.

Chris is not your typical artist. Again you're making exaggerations with your examples. Is Chris still using lightwave he asn't posted anything lightwave related.
Some artists from australia have said that they could not get jobs with using only lightwave or any of the smaller appz.
Leigh, who I believe made the alien emmisary once commented lightwave was a dead end if you need work in AU. Moved to xsi which unfortunately for him is dead.

No point continuing this, we're going around in circles. Those points are exaggerated but the rest are my experiences.
My only point is... it doesn't matter what tool you're proficient in, 3d skills are transferable... personality is not.

Again, you miss my point... I'm not saying Chris is your typical artist, but this example is trying to drive home what I mean, but you're still missing the point.
Whether he STILL uses LightWave is totally irrelevant. If I was hiring, and was a Maya only house... I wouldn't give a flying f**k if his portfolio work was done in LightWave, Blender, or Houdini... he CLEARLY has talent! Those skills are transferable to any tool.... and it wouldn't take him long to get up and running within a pipeline of Maya... I'd still give him a job.

samurai_x
03-01-2017, 10:47 PM
Yeah there's no point when talking to a fanboy who makes exagerrated examples.
It might not matter to you what software an applicant is using, but to companies it does matter. Otherwise why list what software qualifications are needed on the job postings.

Why do you think the Daveschool and other schools switched their curriculum if software does not matter? Smh

djwaterman
03-02-2017, 01:06 AM
Going back to the original question, yes, make it free is probably a good idea (it can't hurt), but for his situation he's better off teaching his students Maya since they already have free licences. It's a simple decision.

lardbros
03-02-2017, 01:12 AM
Haha... I'm not a fanboy, I use 3dsmax for work, 3d Coat, Deltagen, UDK, Substance... I just use lightwave as PART of my workflow, and when I want to get certain things done.

Also... I'm not talking from just my personal view. I work for a large company (not the stuff in my signature, that's my freelance site), and what I mentioned before is how WE hire new staff. Yes, software proficiency matters a little bit... But we've hired most of our guys because of their portfolio, not the software they use. We've been right every time with our choices too, hired people who don't necessarily know every tool you use, but they have the skills to learn and develop and a good grounding in 3d.
I was only making a point, people get waaay too hung up on the software, when actually the skills are completely transferable from one app to the next.

Surrealist.
03-02-2017, 06:33 AM
Companies have to vet up front. They can be very nasty about this. And about use of software. But that is also a gross generalization. It also does not take into account supply and demand and other considerations. Yeah there are some companies you won't get past the vetting process. But there are also companies that use software no students have any access to. There is no cooky cutter answer.

If I am chiming in, having myself hired over a dozen artists in the last 3 years, I can tell you software choice is not at the top of the list. First is 3D skill -mostly. That gets them in the door. Second is personality. Third is choice of software. If a person has a bad personality they don't last long. If a person has limited skills even, but are willing to learn and have a good personality, they can be used in places where you don't need the best artists. But of all the needs, choice of software is the easiest of all to fix. People with good skills and personality are willing to learn. And the younger people are the easier it is to learn new things.

I do agree that a lot of large companies do hire with a sort of fear-based vetting process. Fear the they will be fired if they hire the wrong artists.

But that is the vetting process, That is the adds that you see.

The actual hiring itself is far more complex than that, And any number of factors can enter in. If you send a killer reel out. And I mean killer, you'll get the attention of a company regardless of the software. That is a fact. And listen to interviews of some of the largest companies. They will tell you exactly that.

Already a matter of factual record ever since I have been around. So that is not even debatable.

samurai_x
03-02-2017, 07:24 AM
Haha... I'm not a fanboy, I use 3dsmax for work, 3d Coat, Deltagen, UDK, Substance... I just use lightwave as PART of my workflow, and when I want to get certain things done.

Also... I'm not talking from just my personal view. I work for a large company (not the stuff in my signature, that's my freelance site), and what I mentioned before is how WE hire new staff. Yes, software proficiency matters a little bit...

When you put lightwave in a pedestal that to me is fanboyism. I get it you got your first job with lightwave. That affects your views on what's happening around.

Software proficiency matters a lot, not just a little bit. :D

I'll give you an exaggerated sample like what you did.

Why won't the Dave school teach Truespace or Bryce. Software doesn't matter, as you said. You can compete with all the other students that are using maya and vue. It doesn't matter what you use. You can model as good in truespace compared to the 20 other maya students. Create background images as well as vue users. You got the job. They don't care if they ask you to edit a model IN MAYA and you just stare at the screen. :D

Surrealist.
03-02-2017, 07:54 AM
I don't think he is doing that at all.

As to the point of this thread. His points are valid. Your points are valid.

Agree to disagree? Moving on?

samurai_x
03-02-2017, 08:31 AM
You might be awesome at Maya but a complete prick... or you have an amazing showreel, all created in Blender.

I know which person I'd hire!


Yeah he is.
Why does the maya guy have to be a prick, pig headed, or the one punching his manager?
And the lightwave guy is like Chris who does amazing work so can be hired on the spot anywhere.
Paints lightwave and lightwave users above everybody else.
We're discussing students, curriculum and the chances of students to be competitive in the real world. Saying such things does not help.

Moving on.

samurai_x
03-02-2017, 08:36 AM
Well this guy Juan Santizo want's to teach lightwave. Give him some free licenses.:boogiedow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiOX-D2B8LE

https://s24.postimg.org/fcf5h6n39/Capture.jpg

MichaelT
03-02-2017, 09:05 AM
Well this guy Juan Santizo want's to teach lightwave. Give him some free licenses.:boogiedow
...

...

What are you doing now? I don't mean this thread.. we can see that. But in general.. what are you doing? And what software are you using?

lardbros
03-03-2017, 07:41 AM
Yes, I want to know too. What tools do you use, and what are you working on?

I didn't get my first job with LightWave, I got it with 3ds Max... and now use both LightWave and 3ds Max in my work.
When I applied for the job, they wanted 3dsMax users, but all of my work was done in LightWave... did they care?? Nope! :) My case in point!

I'm also not saying that all Maya users are dicks, but just trying really hard to make a point!

I'm not a LightWave fanboy, and it's most certainly not on a pedestal for me... it has some bad points, many bad points... like ALL tools... BUT i was just trying to say, it doesn't matter what tool you're taught with, there will be someone willing to employ based purely on your portfolio (if your portfolio is good). Like we do... and like ILM and Framestore do.

I'm mainly a 3dsMax user now, that's what I started with too, and then moved to LightWave pretty quickly... and now I use a whole host of tools.
Definitely not a LightWave fanboy, just trying to support a tool that I enjoy using, that's it!

samurai_x
03-03-2017, 09:41 PM
And my point is, in most situations, there are a few dozen students applying for a company.
With similar skill level and noobish experience in a real work environment. Some are future pricks, some are future saints.
There is no way a company will hire someone who will just stare at the screen because he doesn't know maya, max, modo, etc because he only knows blender.
What's he going to do for the company? He has nothing to offer. Maybe his pleasing personality? :D Because it matters more than software proficiency..... :D

Surrealist.
03-04-2017, 08:16 AM
It does matte more in many cases.

There is no one answer.

But back to the point of this thread - if we may.

None of this has a bearing on should LightWave be offered for free to students or schools. It is a pointless argument.

There is a diverse market out there. One that is changing and will continue to change on many levels.

LightWave should continue to be in the mix as an offering. What people do with that, and what schools chose to do is another argument.

LightWave should be free to any students and schools at any time they should choose to use it for any reason.

Real foolish to try and argue the fine points of when where or how that will happen in my opinion.

lardbros
03-11-2017, 01:47 AM
https://www.prolificnorth.co.uk/jobs/motion-graphics-designer-2d-3d/
I'll just leave this here. :)
This is how the industry is going, and has been for a long time.

If you can't be arsed to read the job opening or it disappears it says:

"Expertise inAdobe Creative Suite ( with specific emphasis on After Effects & Photoshop)
Highly proficient at modelling, surfacing and animating in either 3D Studio Max, Cinema 4D, Lightwave, Maya or similar."

Interesting to note they aren't bothered about what tool you use... Maybe they think the skills are transferable or something?? ;)

Asticles
03-11-2017, 02:26 AM
There are examples of everything. I've changed the pipeline at work to LW and blender and we're going fine. Also, one friend of mine was rejected by a job he applied because not enough proficient with maya, although he was proficient with xsi.

Asticles
03-11-2017, 02:39 AM
Here we have Fx Animation, which teachs LW for Fx. But they also teach Max, Houdini and Maya.

http://fxanimation.es/tipos-de-formacion/carreras/carrera-de-efectos-visuales-vfx/#info

I think you pay the licenses with the career prices. Which I think are too expensive.

Free LW licenses for students, but also for degree students, like design ones. If so, you will be able to choose between the infernal Max, Blender and Lightwave. For example.

-sorry for the biased Max opinion-

toeknee
03-11-2017, 03:31 AM
Ya, I think the only hope of getting some students and teachers to start teaching LW is for the educational to be free. They had a real chance to have a certified training course so the students would have a certification from Newtek as to their proficiency, but they insisted on make the program over complicated. This lead to revisions of something that never made it to the schools. The next thing that wiped them out with the educational market was the dongle. This was simply not practical in an educational environment. So, there was a time when many schools still had teachers who wanted to teach LW because it was what they knew and in many cases loved, but there I.T. department would not let them use LW. At the same time, AD, didn't need a dongle and they had certified program’s. I know this because I was a reseller at the time and I pleaded with them to fix these issues. I even created a character animation program that was aimed to get the ball rolling but they just blew me off and in the end, did nothing. Or at least never delivered anything. I am not saying that what I was offering was earth shattering but it was well planned and was designed to have quick one to five minutes’ tutorials for each class being taught to the students this was to help the teaches, as well as give the students a second source of instruction that was available on-line and make it easy to inform any substitute teachers that might be teaching a class. It really sucked because I spoke directly to Jim Plant at the time. I had also sold 250 copies of the educational version of LW in a six-month period. They just blew me off and did nothing. I was very discouraged.

Asticles
03-11-2017, 04:39 AM
On 2012 (if I remember well) Max educational had dongle. I know because I did a 3DMax master and until the end the dongles didn't arrive. Imagine our frustration.
Now LW does not have dongle, but it is too easy that anyone grabs the license file from the computer. For educational version I would make an online licensing as an option when installing the software. AS AN OPTION. :)