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View Full Version : affordable matchmover !!!



robinson
12-17-2003, 07:33 AM
Just saw this link on cgtalk.
http://www.ssontech.com/index.html
only $349.:D


you can download a demo version !!!

siproductions
12-17-2003, 12:34 PM
Thanks for the link. :) Have you gotten to use the software yet?

pixelranger
12-17-2003, 01:49 PM
I tried it out and it looks freakin' awesome!

And it's not affordable. It's cheap! :)

Too bad you can't save projects or export motions in the demo, but I seriously consider paying up for it.

siproductions
12-17-2003, 03:18 PM
Yep Just tried it out myself and looks pretty NEAT!!!. I will have to get it on the next project that needs matchmoving. :) Thanks again for the link.

cresshead
12-17-2003, 04:10 PM
very interesting!

i'll try the demo out over the xmas period if lw 8 doesn't jump into the world!

KillMe
12-17-2003, 06:21 PM
ci downlaoded the sample scene can you tell it to only import tha camera movement andnot all those nulls? they wouldn't half get in the way of your scene

Dr. Dardis
12-17-2003, 07:12 PM
I was a beta tester for Synth Eyes. It has been a really great application, and I cannot recommend it enough. My business partner was in contact directly with Russ Anderson, the Chap who wrote it, and we got almost daily bug fixes when we needed them. When I say bugs, I mean silly tiny thing, sometimes just optimisations. We had some very tricky helicopter footage that we needed a track for at one stage, and we got it done with synth eyes (even WETA have struggled with that in the past, see the extended FOTR disk to see what I mean). Not even bojou seemed to be able to do a good enough job. We even wrote to him to ask if there was a mistake when he told us what the pricing was going to be :). Seriously, can't recomend it enough guys. Does exports to all the apps, in a sensible fashion, we used it in Max and LW. Very, Very Fast!!

The Doc.

Dr. Dardis
12-17-2003, 07:15 PM
Oh, and KillMe

The Nulls just represent your tracking points by the way, so that you have a ready frame of reference. Just Hide them or delete them if you don't like them, should take 1/5th of a second :)

The Doc

jin choung
12-17-2003, 10:23 PM
YES IT IS AFFORDABLE!!!

compared to other apps that START at $5k !!!

sure, i don't throw around hundred dollar bills either but if you can afford lw and if you ever develop a need for match moving, it is entirely possible for a hobbyist to scrounge out $300....

hell, just bleed your relatives on birthdays and such.

$5k. not so much. $10k cough boujou cough. less so.

but $300... definitely affordable.

you may be able to tell that i like and believe in (not to mention - am constrained to) affordable software because i'm a lightwave user but i really really do love the people out there who have such a refreshingly 'consumerist', 'popular' philosophy in pricing their wares.

and to top it all off, it turns out that it WORKS WELL and even does scenes that boujou has a tough time with?

hell, somebody give that man a medal.

jin

petermark
12-18-2003, 01:28 AM
Wow! This is what I've been waiting for for a very long time! I kep thinking - why in the world does Maya cost less than a tracking program??? Looks good, looks good. Unfortunately my machine is being shipped somewhere. Does anyone know of/have a sample video of a finished track?

Whelkn
12-18-2003, 02:00 AM
Well I just finished a project(so I had some extra cash) and I had been playing with the demo for a little bit and I decided to buy it. Im waiting for my license key but when i get it I will let you know how cool it really is. I cant wait!!! :-)

Jeremy

Mylenium
12-18-2003, 03:47 AM
Well, just tried the demo and have to say that prog rocks!. Real nice and incredibly fast. It doesn't seem to care too much for contrast critical material though, so I expect some not so minor problems there but anyway - for that price it's a thing that one should have if you are into that kind of stuff.

Mylenium

pixelranger
12-18-2003, 07:03 AM
Well, I bought SynthEyes today and it ROCKS!!!!

I got very quick replies directly from Russ Andersson when registring and the app has a fantastic pipeline with LW.

I spent whole yesterday in Boujou tracking a difficult bluescreen shot. Then I dl'd the demo, loaded up the shot, chose PAL and frame range, pressed ok, chose gentle motion, pressed Full Automatic, and BAM!! One minute, and I could export a LightWave scene in which the main character was glued to the cg floor.
I just had to turn the coordinate system first (I just parented the camera to a Null and rotated the Null -90 degrees in the Pitch channel)

I can't recomend it enough either.
And $ 349.5???? It's not affordable, its not cheap, its a freakin' STEAL!!

Hervé
12-18-2003, 11:50 PM
very nice... so you'r saying a 10,000 dollars app cannot accomplish what a 350 dollars app does with brise..... hard to believe..... can you post some results... included in LW 8.... ?

jin choung
12-19-2003, 12:19 AM
hiya herve,

actually, you should check out the website too. there's a guy who worked on 'master and commander' with syntheyes and boujou and he says the same thing.

sometimes, there's some guy who comes out of left field with spectacular technology and decides to price it on the cheap.

rare. but it happens.

jin

p.s. oh and you can download the demo and try it yourself.

Hervé
12-19-2003, 12:50 AM
Jin I get your point, but if it's killer stuff, then and only then, .... I really think this was a much much better deal for NT to include it in LW 8.... MGIATT (Might Give It A Try Though)

cheers Jin

Hervé
12-19-2003, 01:42 AM
well I tried a bit and it looks fantastic... is it for real ? Maybe they forgot a "0" to the price...

I am surprised not too many people respond to this...

Question : are realviz and the makers of boujou in real bad hummm...... s...t ?

there is a real HUGE price difference... I mean imagine if XSI dropped its price to $350.... LW, Maya and all others would be dead fish on the sidewalk... no...? I wonder...

jin choung
12-19-2003, 02:17 AM
hey herve,

yep... i did a double take on the price too. but it's real. no zeros missing.

and yep, boujou (especially boujou... $10k.... i hate them so much... shaking my fist....) and mmover IS in trouble.

it's like how lw helped bring down the price of 3d apps (well with truespace and hash, etc.).

sometimes, there just is a paradigm shift and all those of the old guard have to adapt... or rely on their name recognition in the incestuous 'pro' market.

i actually wrote the author to ask him a question about use with video and he talked to me about usage instructions all the way down to stuff shot on VHS!!! turns out that with video, there is an issue with using it with HELICOPTER SHOTS!

ha! this is a guy who wrote an app that was used on master and commander and is familiar with helicopter issues and he can talk you all the way down to VHS!

i love it.

anyhoo, happy holidays herve.

jin

Hervé
12-19-2003, 02:41 AM
you're right Jin, incredible..... so there is problems in fact with helicopters shots..... hummmm, and yeah, I noticed those people at realviz for instance are very "volage" with their pricing politics..... their apps flow up and down very high.... like image modeler, first time I've seen it, years ago, it was crap and the price was around $5,000, now it's quiet good app, and they dropped the price to $750.... but in one upgrade the price for match mover went from $4,500 to $7,500...... very volage....

happy Xmas Jin

Mylenium
12-19-2003, 02:51 AM
I think with Boujou (and Matchmover, and...) it is like with all of those so called high-end apps: They simply have gotten too much in the habbit of seeing themselves as high-end because people permanently tell them. They have lost touch with the realities of the mass market but instead prefer to serve a small but financially potent market. Due to this they only get the limited views of their few customers and development of new technology lags behind. Instead of unbiased fresh views of things the only get input from people that are as rigid as the companies themselves. Well, it's their loss.

Mylenium

jin choung
12-19-2003, 03:11 AM
oh and just to clarify,

it has issues with helicopter shots on video... not film cameras... film is cool.

so if ya happen to be someone who has a helicopter and a VHS camcorder, you may be out of luck... :)

jin

pixelranger
12-19-2003, 01:19 PM
I am using it in production right now and it definately works like a dream!

And yes, Russ Anderson is very good at supporting his customers and he even wrote me to say that the authorization code he gave me had an error causing a couple of extra brackets to appear on the splash screen (thats all) so he gave me a new one. Talk about service!

KillMe
12-19-2003, 04:13 PM
is the price likely to stay low as i have no real need of it right now btu tis somethign i would liek to try out and have avialble but when i need it and go tot get it and its suddenly gone up to £5000 then well i wont be able too

cresshead
12-19-2003, 04:46 PM
same here...i'd like to have it when i have the cash early next year...but wouldn't want to miss out if he has plan to move it's pricepoint place in the market and place it next to scene genie/match mover & icarus
in the $1500-$4000 barcket.

cheers

pixelranger
12-19-2003, 10:28 PM
I got a reply from Russ Andersson where he said that people who didn't have the money now but were planning on buying it after New Year sometimes this winter would be fine. But I wouldn't wait too long...

Hervé
12-20-2003, 02:29 AM
me either....

KillMe
12-20-2003, 09:37 AM
well i guess shall have to get it this winter then - thanks for the info

Netvudu
12-20-2003, 01:56 PM
ok. I, for one, am gonna play the devil´s adocate role here and say this price is absurdly low.
See, I don´t work for any rival company (I teach Lightwave at a Newtek authorized training center) so I swear I´m not making any bad-intentioned comment, and I´m certainly very happy for being able to afford such a good software at such a low price, but the truth is the real price range of this should be way higher. If we are sincere, we all should reckon this, as it´s precisely the reason we are commenting on how cheap and a bargain SE is.

Now, it´s easy as a user to say "this is expensive, this is expensive" and blame the gods of capitalism and such, but the truth is that it´s better an expensive product which allows for hiring people to research a product and make it even better, than a very cheap product, which ultimately forces a company to close and stop supporting and improving it. Truth is, a company that gets bigger because of success also needs more amount of money to operate accordingly.
All those users who ask for cheaper products will always be much more annoyed if they have to learn a whole new tool, because their fav app has dissappeared from the market.

And this also goes for Lightwave. I´m VERY worried about Lightwave current price range. As a user really makes me wonder what kind of future Newtek has planned for it. I certainly wouldn´t want to stop using Lightwave and move to another 3d app because LW has disappeared, and I would gladly bear a price twice as high if that meant a reassuring and strong future for it.

At least, that´s the way I see it. Not an expert opinion of course, just another one.

jin choung
12-20-2003, 02:49 PM
hey netvudu,

ah, but there are many examples where technology sometimes throws out a hyper-evolved product with a low price point to boot.

don't you remember the whole 'DESKTOP PUBLISHING' revolution? all of a sudden, everyone was amazed they could do newsletters at home! :)

then there was the 'DESKTOP VIDEO' revolution where suddenly, the convergence of technology and software made it affordable for every girl in ohio to make a movie - to paraphrase ff coppola.

when these revolutions occur, it suddenly makes a bunch of people in the prosumer sector wake up and say - HEY! WHY TF was this stuff so expensive in the first place?!

and as a consumer, whenever i look at the 'PRO' apps like power animator and softimage and houdini, that is ALWAYS THE QUESTION THAT CAME TO MIND.

WHY THE [email protected]#$ IS THIS SO EXPENSIVE?!

again, the reason is that it is designed specifically for an incestuous and closed (minded) market. this market is where the philosophy - hey, it doesn't cost enough to be pro... must not be very capable - flourishes.

to look at something more close to home, apps like hash, lw, truespace, c4d, blender, milkshape, etc. is the ONLY reason why maya now has a complete version and max and maya both have free versions for hobbyists.

and they can 'afford' to do that!

so when some of these products are priced high - sometimes, it's pretty ARBITRARILY HIGH.

and when a smart rebel upstart jumps into the fray and provides some much needed COMPETITION - sometimes they change the paradigm of how these things are conceived of.

also, SE seems to be the product of ONE BRILLIANT GUY! so less overhead and maybe he has an egalitarian philosophy - bully for him.

jin

Mylenium
12-20-2003, 03:07 PM
I totally disagree with you, Netvudu. SE is not too cheap and if affordable or even free software worries you, you may have chosen the wrong side. It's an industry fairytale that only expensive commercial software can be great. Automated motion tracking is nothing magic and considering that most of the theoretical/ mathematical stuff behind is is rather old (about 10 years, I think) one should wonder why there aren't more tools like this. Even if you consider some additional algorithms for filtering image sequences before tracking or any other fancy stuff you can think of, there's no need for it to cost 5000 $ and up. BTW, SE's price will quite likely go up a little since they will have to hire an extra guy for costumer care if so many people are buying it ;o). Even if so, this won't come near any pricing you have to pay for the so called high end apps. As for LW: It's price is ok. It should not go up nor go down. You could play with LW's pricing a little, if the marketing was better, but there NT totally fail (at least here in Europe/ Germany). You cannot sell LW at a higher price if you can't convince users. LW should stop to rely on us seasoned users to do marketing for them via word of mouth. LW is good, but only an experienced user can really appreciate it.

Mylenium

KillMe
12-20-2003, 06:45 PM
i dont its to cheap - as pointed out it seem to be one mans creation and at that price i'm sure he will get far far more sales than he would at $5000 as those that can afford $5000 trackign dsoftware already have it and would take a vastly superior software for them to render that purchase invalid

now while it seems in area this program is superior if you had boujou 2 would you splash out for it if it was $5000?

as for lightwave - i'm sure newtek knew what it was doing when i repriced and i'm sure the others wouldn't have follwed unless they felt it coudl be sustained too

as for newteks advertising well i think its ntoto bad in the uk at least plenty of as for it in 3d world and the like withs ome beutiful imagines

anyway after christmas i'll get out my wallet and see if i cant convince it to surrender enough cash to get this woudl ahte it to go up in price while i wasn't looking =)

Netvudu
12-20-2003, 10:32 PM
Assuming the maths behind this kind of software is old stuff is one thing (and absolutely true by the way). Now, assuming such a low price will allow this great guy who created this equally great app to research, improve, support and merchandise it they way it deserves is a totally different game.

I´m not saying other matchmoving apps aren´t overpriced. They probably are, but this one is equally underpriced. Something inbetween would look proper for me. Just read the comments on this very thread. One guy said it was a steal. I think in some way it is.

Once again, I insist, I´m very happy that it´s so cheap, but one side of my brain tells me it would be better on the long term if it wasn´t, that´s all.

As for LW it´s a great product, but assuming Newtek has a remote idea on how such a product has to be properly sold ....well, it has been largely shown they simply don´t know how to do it. They virtually have no company presence in Europe. I know it, I live here. I´m not saying nobody is using it, because I know a lot of people that do, but the null promotion and support here in the end means less presence in the market and certainly less job offers.
I don´t know how it is in the UK or in the US, but here LW users have a severe handicap just because it´s virtually unknown for potential customers. And unfortunately, name does matter. I would happily pay more in change for way more advertising if that means more work oportunities.

just my 2 euro cents...

jin choung
12-21-2003, 12:16 AM
excuse me but,

YEEEUUUUGH.

i personally simply cannot abide by ANY argument for HIGHER PRICES!

for me, the cheaper the better. always have been, always will be.

it's philosophy like this that allows photoshop to be $600 in this day and age.

sorry netvudu, i don't mean to sound like i'm nullifying you. not my intent.

you are of course entitled to your opinion and the above is just mine.

just reinforcing my emphatic disagreement. but that's cool, we will agree to emphatically disagree.

jin

p.s. actually, i think underlying this discussion is perhaps our views of the evolution of economics:

in the future, menial jobs will not go overseas - they will be performed by ROBOTS. i guarantee that in a hundred years, there will be no person flipping burgers.

then, there cannot possibly be a 'lower class'. the robots would have taken all the jobs occupied by the 'lower class'. thus homeless, these people will probably be killed off by the first cold snap. :)

actually, i predict that in the future, because of our technology, the only scarcity possible will be ARTIFICIAL.

and so, one way or another (whether by plenty or the death of all the poor), everyone will have plenty.

then, the only thing that people will do is what they choose to do. the answer to the childhood question of, 'if you didn't have to worry about money, if you can do anything that you want, what would you do?'

and at that point, i think the question is begged - what would you charge for what you passionately want to do? why would you need to charge if you have everything you want?

and from the hobbyists who perpetuate freeware and shareware and yes, cheap software, i think we are seeing the beginnings of this kind phenomena.

Hervé
12-21-2003, 04:32 AM
Right Jin..... I predict the end of software Co.'s in 20 years... al those people who are now working for Ignorants share holders will just split and make their own... and for the heavy stuff research... well it is going to be in the hands of robots companies... where research is going to point and follow... already exchanges between Japan Private robots Co is now working hand in hand with the French INRA (gov org.) "Institut National de recherche appliquée"

second ... dont think 3D is sooooo important.... sadly all movies made in 3D will bored people very fast... as the entire entertaiment is directed only by bankers & share holders...

question... is LW only in stock market... I dont even think so... what does tha

Hervé
12-21-2003, 04:34 AM
continuing.... what does it means.... well they could be gone (particulary in US) with a slight brise... no one (except users ) would even notice it....

That' terrible to talk like that about our loving NT and its LW, but that's the crude reality...

happy whatever you want..... he he

Hervé
12-21-2003, 04:44 AM
ha ha ha.... and what about this one.... even mucho cheaper...

http://www.terabit.nildram.co.uk/tattoo/index.htm

cresshead
12-21-2003, 07:45 AM
as for pricing...the return of the king video game on xbox,ps2 and cube is around £40 and is a stunning peice of software that they spent 20million making [just the game...]

so should they really charge £4,000 for they game then seeing as is't so good?

no it's driven by the market....

the matchmover or any software has to balance things out....

how many people would want to buy it....
how much would they pay for it....

there is a finite amount of people who'd buy it...those who need a match mover and thoses how would like one but may not NEED and on a regular basis...

so you could get more sales with a lower price rather than making it a niche product...also a lower price point could in time make it the "photoshop" of matchmovers as most 3d artist can spend $350 on a good plugin for their 3d app and would think that this falls ino the plugin price bracket...in the same way that we have digital fusion for free the preception and sales of fusion have risen up to challenge that of after effects and combustion that fusion could win out in sales numbers so making markting that product simpler...same with this match mover and lightwave as well.


../.well that's my take on it anyway.

jin choung
12-21-2003, 05:01 PM
actually,

research is one of those things that robots CANNOT do. stuff like research and art would probably remain the sole domain of humans.

but this is precisely the kind of stuff that some human (scientist, college prof or student) always WANTS to do.

this is the stuff of passion.

the menial tasks will be automated and it will leave the rest free to do as they please and that means pursue their passions.

it's like how CG eliminates the need for 'inbetweeners'. but it leaves the people free to do keyframes only - which is something they want to do.

jin

Gui Lo
12-21-2003, 06:11 PM
IMHO I think the price is about right.

I mean it is mid price of a commercial plug-in.

Also for people using other tracking software the price allows them to purchase and try SE as well, as peoples testimonials have said.

This has worked for NewTek as it has always been their marketing philisophy to release marketable and sustainable creative tools at the lowest price possible. Obviously the Toaster and LW bear this out. Here in Hong Kong all 3D is either 3DS Max or Maya, but LW is beginning to creep in. So it seems to be a growing user base.

As Jin says this could mark another breakthrough in the same way as DTP, DTV and allow students and hobbyists to reproduce the type of scenes they normally only see in the movies. The only way these breakthroughs accurred was because the work reserved for a few was priced so it was accessable by a much wider market.

It is great to see this price and it is just beneath LW8 on my list and it is also great to see such a realistic outlook by the author.

Gui Lo

Dr. Dardis
12-21-2003, 08:42 PM
you're talking symantics now ladies and gents :)

"feel the flow, it's circular" to quote Kevin 'whatshisname' Nielen.

Basically, cool app, gets the jobs done, it's up to russ to set the price, maybe it will change, maybe it won't.....

try it, if you like it just buy it and use the damn thing :)

Merry XMAS all! Happy 'waving, do good stuff!

The Doc.

mechis
12-23-2003, 12:45 AM
I was looking at the page and the program looks pretty interesting. I have a question though- one of the uses for the program is listed as "Matte paintings (ah, so that's what sunset on Mars looks like)". How is it useful for matte paintings?

It seems like the program is useful for taking live action video, determining how the camera moves and exporting that info to a 3d program. Where do matte paintings fit in and how would the program work with them?

Thanks!

Whelkn
12-23-2003, 12:51 AM
you can use it to matchmove your matte painiting into a scene that you have shot. Its not used in making that matte painting just intergrating it into the scene

Jeremy