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Farhad_azer
02-16-2017, 02:37 PM
Hi everybody,

How can i make sth like this without using heavy plugins like TFD?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-u0vBnn018s

I am aware that David Ridlen has amazing works but i am not such an expert.

I also now that projecting image sequence with alpha channel can be helpful, sadly my camera is moving and i have no access to such image sequences.

Any idea please?

toeknee
02-16-2017, 03:29 PM
Hey Farhad, I think what you are asking for is a little bit of a challenge. Here is a scene that might get you on the right track. 136024136024

jwiede
02-16-2017, 06:21 PM
There's tricks you can use with planes of transparent fire image sequences, etc. which depending on needs can work reasonably well. However, if realism is important, TFD really is the way to go (and the cost is fairly minimal given the set of capabilities it adds to LW). I strongly recommend considering TFD if you expect to do any further smoke/vapor/fire FX work in future, it'll pay for itself quickly.

bazsa73
02-16-2017, 11:33 PM
This is my best try with HVs, it took me ages to do this in LW plus compositing in AE. You better forget about it doing fire in LW. https://vimeo.com/35736996

Do it in Blender it is free, stabile though renders a bit slow. But LWnext will handle open voxel data.

shrox
02-17-2017, 12:58 AM
Burning car.

https://vimeo.com/13445180

bazsa73
02-17-2017, 01:27 AM
2 setups from 2012, use it at your own risk :)
136032

prometheus
02-17-2017, 11:12 AM
Burning car.


Really a good one, it just dissolve pop out a bit in the end, but otherwise really good.

an old sprite setup with a bit more soot.and procedural hypertextures..

https://vimeo.com/3438515





And hereīs one with just particles and no hypertextures..
https://vimeo.com/5822968

But ..I do not even bother to attempt producing fire with particles and lw anymore.
If you can not afford turbulenceFD, try work out something with free blender, either do the scene completly in blender or mix with lightwave...or perhaps just render out fire clips from blender and re-use in lightwave.

Farhad_azer
02-17-2017, 01:11 PM
Thanks a lot guys, some really nice scenes, but unfortunately it takes a lot of time to render.
It is a small project for self promotion and tests so i can not ATM spend extra money, it seems i have to cancel it and as John said should use projection on plane approach with alpha channel.

Does anyone please have any resource for these kind of image sequences?

shrox
02-17-2017, 01:26 PM
Really a good one, it just dissolve pop out a bit in the end, but otherwise really good.

an old sprite setup with a bit more soot.and procedural hypertextures..

https://vimeo.com/3438515...

That's V9.6, still got puffballs...

bazsa73
02-17-2017, 02:09 PM
That's V9.6, still got puffballs...
Yes but at least we know it is Lightwave and not something else.

prometheus
02-17-2017, 02:56 PM
That's V9.6, still got puffballs...

I donīt see the puffballs as the big issue really, not if you adjust hypertextures strenght and control density and the texture contrast properly, One thin though, you can not let one of those particles stray away too far (with an accent like you can not let one single one of those aliens in)

if you move around your particles in such manner that they are mostly contained withing the wind emitter force properly and adjust textures as I said, that isnīt really the issue in my opinion, What is the issue is the lack of true/ realistic motion and the correct texture to describe the flames properly, as we know of, hypertextures is just a fake motion, not a true particle dynamic nor a true fluid equation either, so trying to move around particles within some wind turbulence and with large particle scale, may yield that puff look..thus I say, do not try to work it that way, let the hypertexture do the "fake motion" and not the particles other than the main force and som slight undulation.

Or let the wind force and particles move around with vortex or turbulence..but then you should cut out all procedural textures, use A lot of particles and only tiny hvs...and you may get a low res version of something that may resemble krakatoa renders.


https://vimeo.com/5822968

prometheus
02-17-2017, 03:04 PM
I was just fueling up blender again, loading some old firescenes....though it is very easy to get going, the shading part is a bit trickier, but if you understand how to..itīs quite easy, though creating thick smoke with illumination and using cycles path tracer often yields hard to get rid of noise, even if you try to fix it, though you could do some post process fix of course.

But blender is also quite slow to render the volumes in my opinion, and you do not have a preview animation system as I am aware, so...getting turbulenceFD would be a card to avoid such issues, you get good quality and you can simply make a VPR preview and check animation, and to me it is also much quicker to render than blender think.

As for fire clip resources, not what I know of, you would have to search...maybe youtube if there is some free ones.
As for commercial clips...many people resort to artbeat, or at least used to do that.

shrox
02-17-2017, 03:07 PM
Yes but at least we know it is Lightwave and not something else.

Ha!

shrox
02-17-2017, 03:10 PM
I donīt see the puffballs as the big issue really, not if you adjust hypertextures strenght and control density and the texture contrast properly, One thin though, you can not let one of those particles stray away too far (with an accent like you can not let one single one of those aliens in)

if you move around your particles in such manner that they are mostly contained withing the wind emitter force properly and adjust textures as I said, that isnīt really the issue in my opinion, What is the issue is the lack of true/ realistic motion and the correct texture to describe the flames properly, as we know of, hypertextures is just a fake motion, not a true particle dynamic nor a true fluid equation either, so trying to move around particles within some wind turbulence and with large particle scale, may yield that puff look..thus I say, do not try to work it that way, let the hypertexture do the "fake motion" and not the particles other than the main force and som slight undulation.

Or let the wind force and particles move around with vortex or turbulence..but then you should cut out all procedural textures, use A lot of particles and only tiny hvs...and you may get a low res version of something that may resemble krakatoa renders.


https://vimeo.com/5822968

It looks ok for a game or non photo real. It's at the end of the plume where pufballs become noticeable.

jwiede
02-17-2017, 07:36 PM
It looks ok for a game or non photo real. It's at the end of the plume where pufballs become noticeable.

And at creation when moving -- the puffballs were fairly visible at the front of Christine in the side shot, as the particles came into existence. It's hard to get HV's to properly "blend" in or out, hence puffballs. If you're willing to use a ton of gradients driving particle scale, etc. you can somewhat minimize the effect, but then rendering cost gets even worse (in most cases).

If you have a decent CUDA GPU (NV570 or better), it's difficult to justify HV's over TFD for fire/smoke FX work anymore (IMO).

shrox
02-17-2017, 08:26 PM
And at creation when moving -- the puffballs were fairly visible at the front of Christine in the side shot, as the particles came into existence. It's hard to get HV's to properly "blend" in or out, hence puffballs. If you're willing to use a ton of gradients driving particle scale, etc. you can somewhat minimize the effect, but then rendering cost gets even worse (in most cases).

If you have a decent CUDA GPU (NV570 or better), it's difficult to justify HV's over TFD for fire/smoke FX work anymore (IMO).

Oh, I've got a way around that now, but is their end that is harder to "de-puff". TFD is good.

bazsa73
02-18-2017, 12:48 AM
And at creation when moving -- the puffballs were fairly visible at the front of Christine in the side shot, as the particles came into existence. It's hard to get HV's to properly "blend" in or out, hence puffballs. If you're willing to use a ton of gradients driving particle scale, etc. you can somewhat minimize the effect, but then rendering cost gets even worse (in most cases).

If you have a decent CUDA GPU (NV570 or better), it's difficult to justify HV's over TFD for fire/smoke FX work anymore (IMO).
The rendering cost increases with the amount of voxel spheres and they have to be dense if you want fluidlike effects and there will be always an issue somewhere where you can
easily spot that it was made with computer unlike fluidbased smoke and fire.

bazsa73
02-18-2017, 01:49 AM
Oh, I've got a way around that now, but is their end that is harder to "de-puff". TFD is good.

Particle age based gradient on the density can dissolve also one on thickness but it is still an endless tweaking. On the other hand with realistic fluid solvers making
good fire to smoke shaders takes lots of time.

prometheus
02-18-2017, 06:04 AM
It looks ok for a game or non photo real. It's at the end of the plume where pufballs become noticeable.

I could improve that, as for puffballs, when One use particles as I did in that sample, the puffballs are only as big as the particle size, if you turn to smaller amount of particles and fake sim it with textures..then you need larger hv sizes..hence often large puffballs when straying away, that effect..if you choose to call it puffballs, is considerably less when using just particles, in that sample I could have used dissolve based on local density, or speed which would have reduced it a lot, but at that time I donīt think I was aware of that.

the principles are the same as huge amounts of particles shown in big block buster movies(particles and krakatoa mostly..or houdini particles) But the difference is the amount of particles, and the way particles can dissolve through distance between particles which is lacking in lw as we are dead tired of repeating again.

Anyway...if you can afford it, which the OP may not desire or really need, I would recommend turbulenceFD, but if that is out of question, you need to resort to free alternatives as free clips, which may come with issues of not getting the proper clip and also clips that are clipping the fire prematurely, or you have to live with the cg hv look or invest months and months in to learning hvīs to reach David Ridleys skills if that is enough, or you have to resort to free blender and mix or render out clips from there, there are lotīs of youtube vids on that.

turbulenceFD is quite easy and fun, but I couldnīt justify to buy it just for fun for me, and it wonīt pay for itself unless I would be in that environment that needs it, and I am not, then I really wanted the particle advection feature which is present on the cinema4d version but not lightwave due to sdk, so I hope they have done something about that in the next lw before I start to look in to getting turbulenceFD again, meanwhile I am wrestling with free blender and free fluids within that from time to time.


https://vimeo.com/35832026