PDA

View Full Version : 3D Coat or ZBrush



tcoursey
02-15-2017, 08:42 AM
I don't want a mines better than yours. Maybe the major differences or what one does better than another constructively please :)

I don't know either but feel I should :) I'm thinking of using them to help UV Unwrapping, painting of textures on models and baking normal maps and such. Probably will not do much sculpting.

Is one of them better than the other for those specific things, what else does one do the other doesn't. Thanks.

hypersuperduper
02-15-2017, 09:08 AM
For uv's and painting 3dcoat is very good. It is also much cheaper that zbrush.

TheLexx
02-15-2017, 09:09 AM
(Disclaimer, I use neither). I've browsed the forums and read a good chunk of the "debate". People say 3D Coat is excellent at retopology, UV tools and texturing, is cheaper, and has a licence which doesn't require an online connection to their server if you want to change machines. ZBrush is extremely powerful, but has a reputation for a very unique interface, which artists eventually conquer because it has become the "industry standard" for sculpting, but you're not going to be doing much sculpting, and being the "industry standard" isn't everything (precisely why this is a Lightwave forum and not a Maya forum), so I suggest 3D Coat which is a powerful sculptor anyway. Maybe check out some of the free intro chapters on Digital Tutors for the courses of either programme and see how they feel. Then again, if you are not of good moral character (http://3dcoat.com/company/our-voice/), it might have to be ZBrush after all. My 2p worth, hope that's a start.

Norka
02-15-2017, 09:28 AM
3DCoat should be adequate, and it is waaaaay more user/artist-friendly than ZB. And really, it's sort of similar to when rich folk say "if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it.." -- in that if you needed the level of sculpting ZB has, you would never even be asking the question, and we wouldn't be having this conversation. I am loving my combo of 3RD Powers LW plugs, 3DCoat and Substance Painter. I feel pretty confident that I can make pretty much anything I need, and I have not had to open ZB for months. Whew!.. Because when my ZB work has been sporadic, I find that I have to reorient and even re-learn ZB to some extent, which is a major pain-in-the-***. In all likelihood, I will not be upgrading ZB when 5 comes out, regardless of new features, unless they end up being things that would leave me at a major disadvantage to not have them.

tcoursey
02-15-2017, 10:12 AM
Thanks for the quick feedback everyone. I was leaning towards 3D Coat for reasons mentioned...but wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. Thanks.

hrgiger
02-15-2017, 11:52 AM
I prefer zbrush for sheer performance, free updates for as long as I've owned it, auto retopo is better, larger range of tools... uvs, manual retopo, and texture painting is better in 3DC. I use both.

toeknee
02-15-2017, 12:14 PM
You know I would have to agree with hrgiger, I also have both its hard to decied. They both have their srtrenghs. I also agree that Zbrush has been amazing at handeling a rediculou amount of polys, especially with Nanomesh. I have owned Zbrush sense virsion 1.2b and I have never paid for an upgrade. That is like fourteen years without having to pay for an upgrade. That beeing said all the upgrades from 3DCoat have been very inexpensive and you get an extreme amount of value for the price. I also agree that 3DCoat has a very powerful painting system. That being said they are both so increadably powerful. I find it funny when I hear pepple on the fourms fighting for new modeling tools in Lightwave, I mean the way I feel about it is any second i spend modeling in LIghtwave is time wasted that I could spend mastering a better modeler. This is why I am waiting for the new Renderer for LW2017 as well as the new animation tools and most importantly he new Hypervoxels. I wish you luck which ever way you go you will have a super powerful modeling solution.

bobakabob
02-15-2017, 12:57 PM
They're both great. I use ZBrush for its incredible modelling toolset and intuitive texturing, but one drawback which might influence your decision is that ZB doesn't have Photoshop style layers. Perhaps this feature will come further down the line but surely this gives 3D Coat an edge?

rustythe1
02-15-2017, 02:03 PM
don't forget 3d coat now has PBR smart materials, which will most likely be directly compatible with lw next without any workarounds.

Spinland
02-15-2017, 02:13 PM
I'd have to vote both, too; that being said, I do consider 3DC's UV tools to be superior. YMMV. :jam:

eon5
02-15-2017, 05:24 PM
For UV Unwrapping, painting of textures on models and baking normal maps i would suggest to use 3D-Coat since it has a better tools.

samurai_x
02-15-2017, 06:49 PM
I don't want a mines better than yours. Maybe the major differences or what one does better than another constructively please :)

I don't know either but feel I should :) I'm thinking of using them to help UV Unwrapping, painting of textures on models and baking normal maps and such. Probably will not do much sculpting.

Is one of them better than the other for those specific things, what else does one do the other doesn't. Thanks.

Zbrush is the best for sculpting. You only really need to use around 5 brushes and a few functions to do great work with it.
Using zbrush you need the kiss concept so you won't get turned off with its workflow and ui.
But you already said you won't do much sculpting.
3dcoat does uvmapping, painting a lot better than zbrush. Too many reasons why. Very low learning curve, too.

djwaterman
02-16-2017, 12:46 AM
In your case, 3Dcoat obviously.

Signal to Noise
02-16-2017, 07:52 AM
A timely thread! I do plan to get ZBrush once the exchange rate is a tad better. In the interim I do plan on buying a 3d texturing solution. How does Substance Painter compare to 3D-Coat?

I've done some reading on both. SP has me more intrigued than 3DC ever since I read their "Our Voice (http://3dcoat.com/company/our-voice/)" section which apparently is (or was) a part of the EULA?

bazsa73
02-16-2017, 08:59 AM
A timely thread! I do plan to get ZBrush once the exchange rate is a tad better. In the interim I do plan on buying a 3d texturing solution. How does Substance Painter compare to 3D-Coat?

I've done some reading on both. SP has me more intrigued than 3DC ever since I read their "Our Voice (http://3dcoat.com/company/our-voice/)" section which apparently is (or was) a part of the EULA?
I can only talk for Zbrush and Painter. Painter is incredibly user friendly and it really does the work for you. I have it since Black Friday and I can manage it fairly well. It's not an app which makes you scratch your head for hours.
My heavy gun example.
https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/military/gun/heavy-space-gun

Surrealist.
02-16-2017, 09:29 AM
I don't want a mines better than yours. Maybe the major differences or what one does better than another constructively please :)

I don't know either but feel I should :) I'm thinking of using them to help UV Unwrapping, painting of textures on models and baking normal maps and such. Probably will not do much sculpting.

Is one of them better than the other for those specific things, what else does one do the other doesn't. Thanks.

Another app not to completely ignore for this is Modo. Granted it does not specialize in Painting. And I don't use it. So... lol. Just tossing it out there. But looking at features it seems something to consider.

Aside from that, yes, I would also consider Substance Painter. Another app I don't use but have strongly considered.

I am also in pretty much the same situation. I'd like to come up with another painting solution. Looked real hard at all of these choices.

And yes. I use Zbrush. Not for UV or texturing. So that answers that half of it. But I also use Mudbox. I like it quite a bit for painting textures. But does not have a lot of the modern workflows that 3D Coat, SP and Modo have. And of course no UVs. But I don't use it for that anyway.

hrgiger
02-16-2017, 09:41 AM
i use substance painter as well and would rather use it for texturung than 3dc. its more streamlined for baking and exporting maps. it also has particle painting which is great.

TheLexx
02-16-2017, 09:47 AM
I usually see many more references to the Substance range than Quixel. Does anyone use or rate Quixel ?

samurai_x
02-16-2017, 10:04 AM
Substance suite is becoming an industry standard like zbrush. Quixel megascan is ok but substance is just more versatile.
But there's one thing that annoyed me with subpainter. You can't paint across multiple meshes/parts with multiple uvmaps with multuple materials with a continuous stroke. You need to pick the correct mesh/part/uvmap to start painting like Modo. 3dcoat lets you do anything.
Maybe they updated it now but it was annoying back then.

Greenlaw
02-16-2017, 10:20 AM
I use both, but mostly 3D Coat in general. It's easier to learn and plays well with LightWave. The UV tools are powerful but very easy to use and, for me, the retopology tools have been really handy for quickly prepping meshes for 3D printing.

I like to use ZBrush for very refined sculpting, and for FiberMesh, which works well with FiberFX in LightWave (with a few rigging caveats, documented elsewhere.) FiberMesh is a little tricky to get used to but once you understand how to edit with it, you can create very complex hairstyles with it. As mentioned by others, ZBrush has a higher learning curve because of it's non-standard UI, but once you 'get it', it's very fast to work in.

Short answers:

3DC is a great all-purpose sculpting, texturing, UV-ing, re-meshing tool that's arguably less expensive and works great with LightWave. Cost is reasonable as have been the rare upgrade fees.

ZBrush is harder to learn but very powerful once you get the hang of it. I bought ZB way back with version 2 and have not paid an upgrade fee for upgrades since.

I haven't used ZB with LightWave for some time now but I read elsewhere in these forums that GoZ in Modeler is not working 100% in LW 2015.3. Is this correct?

Surrealist.
02-16-2017, 10:44 AM
I usually see many more references to the Substance range than Quixel. Does anyone use or rate Quixel ?

I have been using Quixel myself and in the studio for a number of years now. It also has 3D painting. For ease of use I rate it higher than Substance Designer which I tried for a while. I have not used Substance Painter though. There are quite a few pluses to Quixel suite. One of them is having files that open in Photoshop with or without the plugin. Usually to get specific results we are looking for we are using some presets and also painting on the model. And you are painting with material so it is updating all of the maps for you which is nice. And that seems to be the new standard which of course Mudbox is missing.

I do find myself looking for something else though. And I am leaning toward 3D Coat or Substance Designer/Painter combo.

And oh... don't forget Mari. :)

Lots of arguments for and against that one as well. Probably harder to learn? From what I hear. I don't know.

jasonwestmas
02-16-2017, 11:08 AM
For hard core texture editing and painting use the Substance Programs. I'd call substance my go-to for little details and patterns. As a bonus they have indie licenses to save money too. There are lots of options out there for Unwrapping UVs. I recommend UV layout or 3Dcoat.

jasonwestmas
02-16-2017, 12:13 PM
I've also found Quixel for photoshop to be quite handy when I need to concept hard body shapes using normal maps. Doors, Panels tiles, small tiled bumps in general. It's so much faster than sculpting that kind of stuff.

Surrealist.
02-16-2017, 12:22 PM
Yeah it does seem - as usual - that a good suite of tools is handy. I still find uses for Mudbox. But agree that the Substance tools are probably the most powerful all around.

hrgiger
02-16-2017, 01:28 PM
The only reason I don't use Quixel is the link to Photoshop. Dealbreaker for me as I've moved away from Adobe as much as possible.

jasonwestmas
02-16-2017, 02:40 PM
I usually see many more references to the Substance range than Quixel. Does anyone use or rate Quixel ?

I think quixel is great for people who do a lot of pre-production prototyping in 3D. Whereas Substance is used for adding finishing touches. Anyway that's how I use em. However I think of Substance designer as a really nice replacement for image editors in the traditional sense. SD is a lot like a nodal-procedural "texture generator" with image editing capabilities. Of course SD's cut and paste capabilities are quite limited still I think. Which would bring me back to quixel editing in PS if I needed such tools. I tend to do more cut and paste compositional editing using photoshop you see.

samurai_x
02-16-2017, 10:53 PM
No mention of blender yet. It can sculpt, paint, uvmap, retopo.
Modo indie is another option better than full modo. It does everything full modo can do except scripting, network rendering.
But I still don't like how you can't paint across meshes with multiple uvmaps. Only good for laying down base colors imo.
Only 3dcoat afaik can paint across anything which makes it the fastest for hand painting. And the brush engine is superior and doesn't feel sluggish.

Surrealist.
02-16-2017, 11:01 PM
I don't think there is any significant difference between use/quality between Substance and Quixel. At least not in my use. In the hands of a good texture artist (not me lol) Quixel is great. Looks great. Is capable of as much detail as any of the other packages. I have seen my guys use it and make good use of the painting and masking to do nice work. The workflow does allow of course a very quick prototyping workflow as you say though Jason. From my limited use of Substance Designer, it felt more like a technical direction tool than an artist tool by comparison. And also there is a reason it is called Substance Designer. It is because you are actually not texturing - only. You are designing a tool to be exported to other packages as a procedural texture solution. It is just so happens you can also design these tools around objects and export the maps in all of the traditional ways. But the hard thing to get your head around in my opinion is the workflow that is still based around designing substances for export. I think that Substance Painter was offered up as a more artist-friendly solution. But because of its TD aspect and nodes, it makes Designer a much more powerful solution than Quixel. That is an over simplification of course. There are a lot of practical differences to consider and advantages etc. But I think an artist will have to get in there and start using it to see. So it is nice they have flexible licensing to allow you to do that indefinitely.

bazsa73
02-17-2017, 01:29 AM
No mention of blender yet. It can sculpt, paint, uvmap, retopo.
Modo indie is another option better than full modo. It does everything full modo can do except scripting, network rendering.
But I still don't like how you can't paint across meshes with multiple uvmaps. Only good for laying down base colors imo.
Only 3dcoat afaik can paint across anything which makes it the fastest for hand painting. And the brush engine is superior and doesn't feel sluggish.

Blender's UV tools are nice. I can move UV islands with ease while in LW I have to select them carefully. Blender's unwrapper works well too. I like Blender more and more.

hrgiger
02-17-2017, 02:54 AM
Concerning UV mapping, I was using 3D-Coat as its UV tools are very good. But once I got into UV mapping in Modo, its become my primary UV mapping app. Modo indie is a fine option if you're a game artist but its export options are limited to fbx and obj,100k polys, you can't use 3rd party plugins or scripts, and bake and render resolution are capped at 4K.

rustythe1
02-17-2017, 02:58 AM
A timely thread! I do plan to get ZBrush once the exchange rate is a tad better. In the interim I do plan on buying a 3d texturing solution. How does Substance Painter compare to 3D-Coat?

I've done some reading on both. SP has me more intrigued than 3DC ever since I read their "Our Voice (http://3dcoat.com/company/our-voice/)" section which apparently is (or was) a part of the EULA?

i think 3d coat is far more powerful, although substance has some clever little tricks like the particle paint it is very slow compared to 3d coat (mine runs at around 200FPS usually), 3d coat also does not really have an image size limitation as you can manually set image size where as substance is just a drop down picker that seems a little limited to me,

Danner
02-17-2017, 08:26 AM
UV tools in Blender are pretty good, but sculpting and painting tools are quite rudimentary. I would recommend sculptris, it being free, responsive and really good at sculpting and painting, but it doesn't play well with other apps, it exports fine but existing UVs get destroyed if you go into sculpt mode and you can't retouch an image that is already mapped.

sadkkf
02-19-2017, 12:08 PM
I usually see many more references to the Substance range than Quixel. Does anyone use or rate Quixel ?

I've used it a little while and though I can get good results from it, having it work as a Photoshop plugin, more or less, is unsavory. Changes are slow and it's a little crash prone.

tcoursey
02-20-2017, 03:20 PM
lot's of great discussion here. Thanks to all for their input. I've played with the demo of 3DC a bit now. Retopo is very handy and pretty powerful, we do some 3D printing and didn't even think about using this for helping make a water tight mesh! Thanks for that idea... UVing seems very nice in 3DC so far. As flexible or intricate as you'd want for most things it seems. Sculpting is fun but again don't plan on doing much of it...but who knows...it is FUN!

I want to love MODO for so many ways but every time I've tried I just come back to LW lol. Blender is the same...very powerful and growing but OMG I can't deal with the interface or workflow. Just can't get my head around some of it.

Bought Quixel a while back I think it was black Friday deal. It's nice..but not quite what I'd want in a texture painter, but that's probably just me and my workflow. Like the idea of staying in the one app and being able to go back and forth like in 3DC. But that may not be realistic workflow either... *shrug*

Thanks again for all the feedback and ideas. Happy to read it all and get caught up!

Surrealist.
02-20-2017, 11:51 PM
I think 3D Coat makes a pretty good case for a one app workflow to an extent. Though I could not comment on the practicality of that as I don't use it. I think if you try it long enough you will know. I think if you find 3DC useful so far, go for it. You know what I mean? Because it can't hurt. You might find 3/4 of it to be totally spot on and work for you. Even if you find 1/2 of it as the most important things you need I think it is worth it.

To me it comes down to the tools. The little story I told about Modo/Maya in this or another thread (can't remember ) was just to point out that in that case, we just need the best retop solution we could get on a budget. (Maya full was out of the question).

I had seen the retopo tools in 3D Coat and while I thought they were nice, I just needed to find something as close to Maya as possible with other modeling tools available at the same time. Usually we are doing a combo or retopo and then modeling spheres and cylinders and so on as well.

Anyways. The point is. Sometimes you can only get so much out of an app. If the retopo tools in Modo would have worked better for us, that would have been great. And we could have explored other things. But since we really already had a modeling app to lean on we were OK in that department for the time being. Modo will have to come later.

But if you are getting a lot out of an app - is what I am trying to say here. Go with it! Add it to your pipeline. You won't regret being able to turn to this tool even if it is only for a few things.

That is how I view both 3DC and Modo at this point. Just for me practically speaking it will have to wait til I can get time in - or put a guy on - learning them fully.

Schwyhart
02-21-2017, 12:59 AM
Both Zbrush and 3DCoat take time to learn. So don't expect to use it on projects right away. Substance Painter is really easy to master, but doesn't include UV tools...it's only painting. You can see the workflow here: https://tutorials.allegorithmic.com/courses/6975bb461e10d23520d18c7114afb8c7/youtube-bwusznnkRxo

Personally, I couldn't grasp either Zbrush or 3DCoat. I did a few projects with both, but gave up. The learning curve is steep with both.
I purchased one of the last versions of 3DCoat v3 and got a free upgrade to v4. I haven't had to pay for an upgrade in at least 3 years.

Danner
02-21-2017, 10:03 AM
Zbrush is like a race car, it sure is fast and can do some amazing things under capable hands. But it's hard to master and you'll hit a few frustrating bumps.

samurai_x
02-21-2017, 07:42 PM
Don't know if it matters.
3dcoat is a floating license. Install on as many workstations as you can. Less hassle if you use multiple computers.
Zbrush only two installs.

Julez4001
02-23-2017, 12:19 AM
While it always takes time to learn new software, 3DCoat UV tools are so intuitive you will be up to speed with 2 hrs if not less and have fun doing it.

Zbrush not so much however it is my go to Sculpting software. For character creation especially.

CaptainMarlowe
02-23-2017, 03:17 AM
For what you described, I would also recommend 3D-Coat, and even better, the combo 3D-Coat (retopo, UV...) + substance painter for painting.
It's been at least for me a winning combo since the beta of substance painter.

quakebox
02-25-2017, 08:04 PM
I have both and each has pros and cons, Zbrush is a better sculpting tool and 3DCoat has better UV unwrap and retopology tools you can survive using either of them. Both are very capable but I noticed some slowdowns in 3Dcoat when sculpting.

Surrealist.
02-27-2017, 10:29 AM
Don't know if it matters.
3dcoat is a floating license. Install on as many workstations as you can. Less hassle if you use multiple computers.
Zbrush only two installs.

Zbrush has a floating license as well. You can install it on more than 2 machines and simply activate or deactivate as needed. I do this all the time. Maybe it is slightly more hassle but it is straight forward and it works.

samurai_x
02-28-2017, 09:27 AM
Zbrush has a floating license as well. You can install it on more than 2 machines and simply activate or deactivate as needed. I do this all the time. Maybe it is slightly more hassle but it is straight forward and it works.


Yep my mistake. I meant floating with unlimited activations.
Lightwave, 3dcoat, etc should be called Floating plus. Best license implementation imo. No hassle.

Surrealist.
02-28-2017, 10:34 AM
Right. Got it.

yusofadibmanesh
04-03-2018, 01:18 PM
yes, 3d coat is far more powerful, although substance has some clever little tricks like the particle paint it is very slow compared to 3d coat (mine runs at around 200FPS usually), 3d coat also does not really have an image size limitation as you can manually set image size where as substance is just a drop down picker that seems a little limited to me,

sadkkf
04-05-2018, 02:34 PM
yes, 3d coat is far more powerful, although substance has some clever little tricks like the particle paint it is very slow compared to 3d coat (mine runs at around 200FPS usually), 3d coat also does not really have an image size limitation as you can manually set image size where as substance is just a drop down picker that seems a little limited to me,

I've been using ZBrush for about a year now and love it. Getting to know the UI was the biggest hurdle, but discovering how it works has, for me, removed most of the frustration. There are tons of tutorials online to help you through it. Spend a couple of hours learning the basics on YouTube and then it's just discovering the power of each tool.

Substance Painter is a great tool as well. The drop downs for texture sizes is not a big deal. You can set this at any time and I can't imagine ever needing textures larger than 4K.

eon5
04-05-2018, 05:01 PM
3dc - New version 4.8.14 !

3.04.2018 4.8.14 (http://3dcoat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/21433-3dcoat-48-beta-testing-thread/&)

- Instant meshes integration. Press RMB over object, AUTOPO->.....
It supports symmetry. Don't expect too much. It is about robustness and
stability, but not about too great quality.

- Autopo density problems fixed.

- New curves are in very good state. Still need a lot of development,
but now it is closer to Corel in 3D. Still beta.
(Edit->Prefs->ShowNewCurvs)

- Posibility of 16-bit export for displacement in export constructor.

- Metall support in picture transform tool. If gloss enabled, imported
image will be with metallness. You may vary it with slider.

- FlipX, FlipY, FlipZ for Tweak room

- CTRL+UnifyUV to unify UV sets with same names.

- Import multiple objects for PPP.

madno
04-06-2018, 12:36 AM
What graphic tablets do you use / recommend for either of the software?

hrgiger
04-06-2018, 06:43 AM
I've used a Wacom Intuos 4 for the last 4 years or so.