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rednova
02-11-2017, 10:59 AM
Dear Friends:

One of my goals is to make beautiful spaceships like Ron Thornton made for babylon 5.
For a time, I thought, if i can learn to make spaceships with miniatures, it will increase
my chances of succeeding in cgi modeling.
But I just had a change of heart. The miniatures will cost a lot of time and work.
If I just concentrate on making the spaceships in lightwave modeler, it will be easier
and I still will eventually succeed. Then I will have extra time to model.
So I decided, I am just gonna use cgi/modeler to make my spaceships.
Any comments about this ?

pinkmouse
02-11-2017, 01:58 PM
Personally, I'd learn both. :)

BigHache
02-11-2017, 02:36 PM
Learning both is a good point. Building a physical model should help you understand structures and engineering them, which in turn should help you become a better 3D modeler. Only doing digital modeling, one might be more prone to making things that seem like they look nice, but engineering might not make sense.

Maybe try your hand at getting a cheap model kit, some styrene scraps and build something, then turn around and model it?

prometheus
02-11-2017, 03:27 PM
Well..my thoughts and just take it from One that doesnīt do spaceships at all, but just reflecting on it, there may be others that might be better suited to tell you..maybe shrox or steve burg, anyway for what itīs worth, I do not think it may be necessary, if you just got an eye for it and study reference, actuall building of it makes no sense, even if it may be fun as hell..
I donīt think a guy like steven messing for instance has made real miniature ones, but I could be wrong.

The only reason to do miniature or full part set designs would be for reference or for actual part in a scene...doing them for actual use in a film nowadays seem abondoned, all though it had superior lighting and true surfaces, no aa needed etc:)
to do them just to get a grip on how a model should be etc...it actually seems overdoing it.

So what was the story with Ron Thornton, did he Ever use real miniature as reference especially for babylon ships? did his practice of his physical miniature skills translate to 3d directly if he ever did that, or was it a completly 3d based process
based on Garlic or something like that :)

erikals
02-11-2017, 04:17 PM
Personally, I'd learn both. :)

way back, i bought the Millennium Falcon,
the nice thing about it was that i got to physically see/feel how it was made.

not a 'must' by far, but glad i did it.

my advice, do what you feel like doing.


The only reason to do miniature or full part set designs would be for reference or for actual part in a scene.
yep.

prometheus
02-11-2017, 04:27 PM
way back, i bought the Millennium Falcon,
the nice thing about it was that i got to physically see/feel how it was made.

not a 'must' by far, but glad i did it.

my advice, do what you feel like doing.


yep.

Did you build it ..or was it already made?
I mean, I can see a point of having it as reference study, but the necessary building it is what I question would bring anything useful to the table when it comes to a later 3d construction?
There ar loads of image reference anyway..and you could ofcourse get premade models as well I guess.

Then again..I might be contradicting myself since I am loving to model sculpt in plasteline and plaster...for more figure and organic stuff anyway, just to get a feel.

There is always sketchfab...

https://sketchfab.com/comrade1280/collections/space

https://sketchfab.com/models/65e3e38f9647445c86742e5af13379d8
https://forum.sketchfab.com/t/close-encounters-of-the-third-kind-devils-tower-mother-ship/10757

https://sketchfab.com/models/b4610c38059046f192c0d1c1a43de71f

erikals
02-11-2017, 04:35 PM
built it, took some time though, can't recall, a day perhaps?


I mean, I can see a point of having it as reference study, but the necessary building it is what I question would bring anything useful to the table when it comes to a later 3d construction?
a physical model will always give you an alternate feeling/dimension. your brain picks that up, and will use it to it's benefit. kinda like riding a bicycle, you can't explain the feeling, but you know it's good for something.

think of it like learning this to a kid, building it physically gives the kid gross-motoric capabilities, that will be beneficial later on.
https://www.google.no/search?q=fine+and+gross+motor+skills&client=firefox-b&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwikn_DemonSAhXKiiwKHRwpDUQQ_AUICCgB&biw=1637&bih=1287

necessary? no.
a benefit? slightly, though not much.

playing a Star Wars game could also give benefits. slightly.
or alien isolation. http://www.keengamer.com/Image/Image/12425

is using clay beneficial before going into Zbrush? slightly.   :)

------------

as for rendering, practical models are still a quite beneficial reference, if you get the lighting right.
Hollywood movies still use this technique. ILM is by far best at it though.

shrox
02-11-2017, 04:48 PM
Kit bashing, where you build a basic form, then cover it with pieces from a wide variety of plastic models. That's how it used to done. Like this design from the original Battlestar Galactica began as an F-15 fighter jet.

http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/EADestroyer-FrontAngle.jpg

prometheus
02-11-2017, 04:55 PM
kinda like riding a bicycle, you can't explain the feeling, but you know it's good for something.
.

Dunno..Hardly ever had a go at a bicycling since I was 13 years old, the wheels locked and off ..off I went..went, hit the floor, and had a concusion...been afraid of bicycling since then. ;)
Bicycles are good when sweet ladies are riding them, at least for watching..but i donīt have a good use for them :) the bicycles that is.

Seriously ..Generally modeling and get a feel for somethings underlying structure is a good thing, and may translate well to 3d sculpting in for instance zbrush, but I am not so sure when it concerns shapes of hard surface modeling, itīs not exactly like you "feel" with your fingers all over the spaceship body to get a feel of the structure, neither do you actually model the parts fully, but use the parts to glue and mount as opposed to sculpting where you often feel the whole body or face of the sculpted figure.
But it is of course very hard to say wether or not it actually helps, may be a cause of personal adaptation to the task as well.

djwaterman
02-11-2017, 05:38 PM
Yeah I do have a comment to make, stop talking about it and just go make it.

erikals
02-11-2017, 05:46 PM
get a kick-scooter :)

---------------

yes, again, the advantage is minimal.

it's good for photo reference though, and if one wants a Kodak look to the render one should use "Virtual Darkroom" or such in LightWave.

---------------

Rouge One is a good ref, but not out on DVD/BD just yet...

however, you can see the Imperial Destroyer reference in this trailer


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frdj1zb9sMY

if building a kit, be sure to spray paint it properly though, to remove the plasticy subsurface scattering effect.
the larger the kit, the less subsurface scattering effect.

erikals
02-11-2017, 06:10 PM
regarding GI, here from Rouge One, i always find it smart to pump up the GI radiosity (increase hue) to see what color info the render has.

...4 second .gif anim

erikals
02-11-2017, 07:36 PM
not a final, but gives a hint or two on filmatic looks in LightWave >


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvkaSvkzjH4

jeric_synergy
02-11-2017, 10:46 PM
"Kitbashing" -- procuring actual plastic model kits shouldn't, MUSTN'T (? ....huh... "MUSS-ant") stop you: there's a WORLD, or at least A DUMPSTER full of raw materials near you:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/345236885637120/

:D

Note the huge difference the painting makes.

shrox
02-11-2017, 10:51 PM
"Kitbashing" -- procuring actual plastic model kits shouldn't, MUSTN'T (? ....huh... "MUSS-ant") stop you: there's a WORLD, or at least A DUMPSTER full of raw materials near you:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/345236885637120/

:D

Note the huge difference the painting makes.

Well sure, that too. The point is making something new from parts.

jeric_synergy
02-11-2017, 11:20 PM
Well sure, that too. The point is making something new from parts.

Accumulating the parts might stop people. Trying to remove the activation threshold here.

There's a juice-bag type of drink that has these little, overly-complex, caps that make perfect "ventilator hoods" or "laser emitter" or whatev greebles. Since most of use throw out a boatload of plastic every week, I'm just saying to take a hard look at any bits that might make interesting shapes.

Also, shampoo bottles are cool. ;)

shrox
02-11-2017, 11:34 PM
Accumulating the parts might stop people. Trying to remove the activation threshold here.

There's a juice-bag type of drink that has these little, overly-complex, caps that make perfect "ventilator hoods" or "laser emitter" or whatev greebles. Since most of use throw out a boatload of plastic every week, I'm just saying to take a hard look at any bits that might make interesting shapes.

Also, shampoo bottles are cool. ;)

I use whatever shape works, like for my spacesuit. Lots of plastic car parts on it.

erikals
02-12-2017, 02:10 AM
not sure what this was made of, but some form of container. pretty nice.

135967


i was close to buying a 3D printer. it's inspiring also how bash & 3Dprints of small parts can be mixed.

Kevbarnes
02-12-2017, 05:29 AM
135968

HI Shrox - love this pic - what did you say to make them laugh so much?

Kev

prometheus
02-12-2017, 06:50 AM
I have started a few threads in the past about spaceships (who hasnīt :) )

Hereīs a thread where shrox mentions a few remarks on cg vs real as well...

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?116418-Miniature-ship-Nostromo-Reference-concept-art-etc&highlight=spaceship

Interview with Chief Engineer of The Spaceship Company...

http://blog.grabcad.com/blog/2013/11/11/interview-spaceship-company/?utm_campaign=weekly-update&utm_medium=email&utm_source=top-stories-read-more

This site seems to have a lot of interesting material, discussion forum etc about plastic models..

http://resinilluminati.com

Check some images from the site with this...
https://www.google.se/search?hl=sv&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1739&bih=956&q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fresinilluminati.com&oq=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fresinilluminati.com&gs_l=img.3...1066.2163.0.2302.6.6.0.0.0.0.212.652. 4j1j1.6.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.5.552...0j0i10k1. V_bFvL9bNOI


And this one...
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?134863-Spacecraft-Builders-How-would-you-build-The-Engineer-vessel&highlight=engineer

shrox
02-12-2017, 10:52 AM
HI Shrox - love this pic - what did you say to make them laugh so much?

Kev

They asked how do I pee in the suit. I paused, then said, "Like that". It was an Iron Man moment...

Kevbarnes
02-12-2017, 11:10 AM
They asked how do I pee in the suit. I paused, then said, "Like that". It was an Iron Man moment...

Ha - great, response. did you win?

shrox
02-12-2017, 11:39 AM
Ha - great, response. did you win?

Third place out of 12.

Ma3rk
02-12-2017, 07:12 PM
Third place out of 12.

Well, if you'd also had your Kitty in HIS suit ...

shrox
02-12-2017, 07:30 PM
Well, if you'd also had your Kitty in HIS suit ...

Kitbash Suit Kitty.

tischbein3
02-13-2017, 11:46 AM
One of my goals is to make beautiful spaceships like Ron Thornton made for babylon 5.
For a time, I thought, if i can learn to make spaceships with miniatures, it will increase
my chances of succeeding in cgi modeling.

My two cents on this....

Try to rebuild some of those models in cg. IMHO there is no point doing the real stuff
for learning anything cg related. Sure, it is a time intensive job, especially at the beginning of
such a project, but its worth to go through this. (You'll become quite effective during the process,
because most of the time its a pretty repetitive job).

There two reasons why I would recommend to _rebuild_ a heavy greebled model in 3d instead of
going with your own design first.
1) As a beginner its hard to come up with own greebles / kit parts to the amount needed: So you allways
switch between the model and design process. (= Thinking what the next element should look
like vs building it) wich will cost a lot of time and energy. So by rebuilding some existing model
you actually gain a visual library of some greebles. Sure this would be easier doing the real life
version, but in the end you would still have to model the stuff in cg / renember the shapes.
2) Model kits are not cheap, and never where, so model makers did use them very efficent
instead of randomly placing them everywhere. For example, for breaking or supporting the general shape etc...
You WILL learn some techniques used, by rebuilding those models.

What I find interesting to observe is that we are going in full cycle: Model makers using cg for printing out diffcult
shapes or hard to find greebles.

But nevertheless yes, keep an eye on their modeling practices etc, because you will learn some techniques wich can be
transfered to cg. (Setting up base shapes, what greebles are used)..but again, this stuff doesn't require
to go into real life modeling (imho).

shrox
02-13-2017, 12:18 PM
My two cents on this....

Try to rebuild some of those models in cg. IMHO there is no point doing the real stuff
for learning anything cg related. Sure, it is a time intensive job, especially at the beginning of
such a project, but its worth to go through this. (You'll become quite effective during the process,
because most of the time its a pretty repetitive job).

There two reasons why I would recommend to _rebuild_ a heavy greebled model in 3d instead of
going with your own design first.
1) As a beginner its hard to come up with own greebles / kit parts to the amount needed: So you allways
switch between the model and design process. (= Thinking what the next element should look
like vs building it) wich will cost a lot of time and energy. So by rebuilding some existing model
you actually gain a visual library of some greebles. Sure this would be easier doing the real life
version, but in the end you would still have to model the stuff in cg / renember the shapes.
2) Model kits are not cheap, and never where, so model makers did use them very efficent
instead of randomly placing them everywhere. For example, for breaking or supporting the general shape etc...
You WILL learn some techniques used, by rebuilding those models.

What I find interesting to observe is that we are going in full cycle: Model makers using cg for printing out diffcult
shapes or hard to find greebles.

But nevertheless yes, keep an eye on their modeling practices etc, because you will learn some techniques wich can be
transfered to cg. (Setting up base shapes, what greebles are used)..but again, this stuff doesn't require
to go into real life modeling (imho).

There is plenty to learn from "hard world" modeling. Just ask Rick Sternback or Doug Drexler. They're on Facebook.

tischbein3
02-13-2017, 12:41 PM
Yes, thats why I recommend to start by copy some of the real world models in cg.
But imho you do not need to go full on real modeling, a lot of the information is shared online
...and you more or less stumble on this information once you do search for references of certain models

Learning how to turn and mill metal didn't made me a better modeler: maybe I can do more
"realistical" models following some rules, but those can also be learned without ever touching one
of those machines. In fact applying some of these methods can also be a restricting factor for cg models
on a visual level, especially for scifi stuff.

But yes... there is a reason I subscribed to the shampoo bottle ship facebook group

shrox
02-13-2017, 01:15 PM
Yes, thats why I recommend to start by copy some of the real world models in cg.
But imho you do not need to go full on real modeling, a lot of the information is shared online
...and you more or less stumble on this information once you do search for references of certain models

Learning how to turn and mill metal didn't made me a better modeler: maybe I can do more
"realistical" models following some rules, but those can also be learned without ever touching one
of those machines. In fact applying some of these methods can also be a restricting factor for cg models
on a visual level, especially for scifi stuff.

But yes... there is a reason I subscribed to the shampoo bottle ship facebook group

Part of real world modeling is learning about structures and how much weight, stress etc. they can take, with makes for more realistic designs. This also includes real flying models as well. I notice many interesting "realistic" designs that would absolutely fail in the real world.

shrox
02-13-2017, 02:02 PM
Look at it this way...

tischbein3
02-14-2017, 12:01 PM
Mhmm I'm still a bit not convinced but again this is just my opinion, and I might be wrong,
can we agree to disagree on this ?

cherishjoo
04-17-2017, 02:59 AM
The plastic prototype looks awesome!