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vonpietro
01-12-2017, 04:06 PM
One thing i really would like to see addressed is a reworked real time rail extrude.

Its a big part of my work flow, and it breaks all the time.
put the extured part in the wrong place...
mess up the spline somehow -

and you get this flat extrude thats useless. You try a bunch of different settings, and align to start is usually the culprit, but
seriously
this tool needs a major revamp so that it works 90% of the time instead of 40% of the time.

Norka
01-12-2017, 04:21 PM
+1 Though I have not seen anything that indicates Modeler is getting anything new, so I will not hold my breath... or did I miss something somewhere?

erikals
01-12-2017, 04:31 PM
new modeling tools made in Modeler will be made such so that they can easily be ported to Layout.
i read that somewhere, too lazy to find the link atm.

this might mean that Modeler improvements from now on will be, limited.

regarding Rail Extrude, this is a perfect example of a RealTime tool very much needed, both in Modeler and Layout.

hrgiger
01-12-2017, 06:56 PM
For rail extrusions I just use LWCAD (or other software I wont' mention). Hoping for it in modeler is a fools errand at this point. LW3DG either has other plans for modeling or they're just blatantly ignoring it. Either way, there are other tools out there to use and people are best serving themselves by taking advantage of them now.

erikals
01-12-2017, 07:04 PM
yes, LWCAD is way ahead on those areas.


LW3DG either has other plans for modeling or they're just blatantly ignoring it.
i'm pretty sure they put it on hold because of the Layout Mesh Engine.
if not... well...

Marander
01-12-2017, 11:35 PM
yes, LWCAD is way ahead on those areas.

Yes it's ahead and 5.2 has some good improvements, but it's still far behind others because of its non-procedural nature. Lets hope LW2017 will open the path for procedural modeling. Rail Extrude, Lofts, Sweeps, Booleans, Cloners, Text etc. are good examples where non-destructive workflow has huge advantages.

Lewis
01-13-2017, 12:08 AM
Yes it's ahead and 5.2 has some good improvements, but it's still far behind others because of its non-procedural nature. Lets hope LW2017 will open the path for procedural modeling. Rail Extrude, Lofts, Sweeps, Booleans, Cloners, Text etc. are good examples where non-destructive workflow has huge advantages.

Hi!

May i get info/link where did you get idea that next LW release is going to be about procedural modeling, or even modeling updates in general ? I've not seen any indication on LW Blog they posted so far.

thanks.

erikals
01-13-2017, 12:40 AM
there are no Modeling improvements in LW2017, as far as we know.


non-destructive workflow has huge advantages.
it's important to remember though that they are only non-destructive up to a certain point.
goes for all apps, though Houdini can take it further than most, it lacks many modeling functions so...

...non-destructive is very nice, but it's also hyped. it's still quite limited.

...or anyone else, prove me wrong.

Lewis
01-13-2017, 01:09 AM
...non-destructive is very nice, but it's also hyped. it's still quite limited.

...or anyone else, prove me wrong.

Not at all, it's very very powerfull (esp when clients change theri minds constantly so edits for destructiv emodleign is very hard/time consuming)

check just these two videos (there is tons more)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6xvkJTRXbI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4Rq_ojTzQg

Now imagine just simple everyday "problem" client changing his mind about Car Rim design, spokes number or drilled holes depth/width, shape, position.. all this can be changed interactively with few clicks instead remodeling all (like in LWM) again.

Also it's important to note that procedural capable modeling apps also can do Destructive modeling so there is no downside 'coz they can do both and if oyu for some reason don't need procedural/non-destructive you can always go brute force destructive mode ;).

Marander
01-13-2017, 04:36 AM
Hi!

May i get info/link where did you get idea that next LW release is going to be about procedural modeling, or even modeling updates in general ? I've not seen any indication on LW Blog they posted so far.

thanks.

Hi Lewis

No they didn't mention procedural modeling, they showed a new Torus2 tool (!) and an improved cloner (which works already better in LWCAD). I asked Lino why they are still developing tools for modeler instead of Layout since it should be geometry aware now and the answer was that the new tools should be easily portable to Layout (not exactly his words but in that sense).

What I meant before is that since LW2017 has a new architecture (and in the words of Rob Powers the most modern one), I would expect a procedural workflow.

If you worked in a procedural and unified application for a while and open LWM again you feel being ported back to stone age. And the worst of is destructible workflow combined with non-working undo.

erikals
01-13-2017, 05:02 AM
Lewis, i agree. i'm saying it more like a warning as some people seem to think that non-destructive tools have no limitations.

but yes, to keep current, LightWave definitely needs a non-destructive workflow / modifier stack / history / multiple graph undo.

Wickedpup
01-20-2017, 02:36 AM
Not at all, it's very very powerfull (esp when clients change theri minds constantly so edits for destructiv emodleign is very hard/time consuming)

check just these two videos (there is tons more)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6xvkJTRXbI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4Rq_ojTzQg

Now imagine just simple everyday "problem" client changing his mind about Car Rim design, spokes number or drilled holes depth/width, shape, position.. all this can be changed interactively with few clicks instead remodeling all (like in LWM) again.

Also it's important to note that procedural capable modeling apps also can do Destructive modeling so there is no downside 'coz they can do both and if oyu for some reason don't need procedural/non-destructive you can always go brute force destructive mode ;).

I agree. Here is another example from Andy Brown in Modo...... https://www.thefoundry.co.uk/events/online-events/how-to-with-modo-procedural-modeling/?elqTrackId=8ae89d5bdc594d2dbec2077d94b87084&elq=d33f761648f046c39be9ca305f6caa3b&elqaid=2366&elqat=1&elqCampaignId=1879

jwiede
01-20-2017, 03:43 PM
I agree. Here is another example from Andy Brown in Modo...... https://www.thefoundry.co.uk/events/online-events/how-to-with-modo-procedural-modeling/?elqTrackId=8ae89d5bdc594d2dbec2077d94b87084&elq=d33f761648f046c39be9ca305f6caa3b&elqaid=2366&elqat=1&elqCampaignId=1879

Yep, that's a great example highlighting the benefits.

One benefit folks not used to working procedurally typically don't recognize is the ability, while working, to capture canned sections of your workflow into macros/aliases easily _after the fact_. So if I realize I need to reuse something I just did a bit earlier, I can find that set of operations in my history, capture it as a alias (in MODO terms), and then essentially turn it into a reusable command (on top of which I can apply arrays and other further modifiers).

For example, there's another forum thread where Proton posted techniques for making holes in sub-d geometry. With procedural modeling, I actually can capture the post-selection procedural operations done to make the hole into an alias in such a way that given similar (but arbitrary) selected geometry, I can simply issue the alias as a cmd (turning a multi-step process the first time into a reusable single-step process thereafter). That approach rewards experimentation: When I discover a neat trick, I don't have to remember the steps and repeat them again with capture turned on or such, I can instead pull it directly from the captured history (which avoids potential errors in remembering what was done as well).

Once you really get comfortable with procedural modeling workflows like that, moving back to Modeler (even with LWCAD) feels incredibly limited in comparison, both due to the lack of procedural modeling, and the (related) absent ability to easily capture sections of history as persistent recipes.

LW3DG could probably figure out a way to implement that latter ability in Modeler -- using sets of direct editing operations instead of procedural operations isn't quite as flexible w.r.t. selections/operands, but still potentially useful. Modeler's undo is comprehensive, there's just no exposed history list from which sections can easily be selected, but that could be addressed easily enough. Unfortunately, LW3DG seems uninterested in further significant investment in Modeler tools, and this is a case where they would not be easily portable to Layout (because unlike Modeler, Layout does NOT have comprehensive undo).

Aside, modeling without comprehensive undo simply isn't an acceptable way of working for most modeling customers -- Newtek lost that battle a LONG time ago (thus Modeler HAS comprehensive undo). There's no evidence suggesting customers now are any more receptive to the notion of modeling without comprehensive undo than were past LW customers. Unless and until LW3DG adds such undo/history functionality to Layout (which we've been told won't be in LW.Next, nor (IIRC*) likely the following release), adding modeling tools in Layout will offer negligible practical value for modeling.

*: IIRC, Lino mentioned/implied during discussion in thread for first or second blog post. I have no clue if his post still exists, so disbelieve at will. Kinda moot since LW.Next release cycle hasn't even BEGUN yet -- given LW3DG release history, the release after LW.Next is likely years from now.

Verlon
01-22-2017, 10:39 PM
new modeling tools made in Modeler will be made such so that they can easily be ported to Layout.
i read that somewhere, too lazy to find the link atm.

this might mean that Modeler improvements from now from LW7 on will be, limited.

regarding Rail Extrude, this is a perfect example of a RealTime tool very much needed, both in Modeler and Layout.


Small correction made for you.

In other news, why isn't the s and /s working for strikethrough?

jeric_synergy
01-22-2017, 10:44 PM
Yes it's ahead and 5.2 has some good improvements, but it's still far behind others because of its non-procedural nature.
I've been working with C4d, and practically everything interesting in modeling starts with "make this item Editable (ie, polygonal)." So the parametric modeling thing has been less fundamental than I hoped.

jeric_synergy
01-22-2017, 10:50 PM
With procedural modeling, I actually can capture the post-selection procedural operations done to make the hole into an alias in such a way that given similar (but arbitrary) selected geometry, I can simply issue the alias as a cmd (turning a multi-step process the first time into a reusable single-step process thereafter). That approach rewards experimentation: When I discover a neat trick, I don't have to remember the steps and repeat them again with capture turned on or such, I can instead pull it directly from the captured history (which avoids potential errors in remembering what was done as well).

If Modeler had been implemented as Layout was, with a command history, aka LScript Commander, we'd have got there a couple decades ago.

Sadly, Layout did not follow-thru with that at all completely, and whole sections of the program result in no entries in the LS Commander stack. Which sucks, as it compromises its utility quite deeply. Another missed opportunity.

Marander
01-23-2017, 01:15 AM
I've been working with C4d, and practically everything interesting in modeling starts with "make this item Editable (ie, polygonal)." So the parametric modeling thing has been less fundamental than I hoped.

Yes, if you're modeling on a point / edge / poly basis then the primitives need to be editable. The procedural power comes when modeling with Cloners, Effectors, Falloffs, Deformers (FFD, Bevel, Shrink Wrap etc) and Curves, as well as Booleans, Symmetry, Text, Fracture, Lofts, Sweeps, Lathes, Extrudes etc. Basically all the LWCAD modeling operations and much more are non-destructive.

There's a free plugin for more procedural modeling: https://vimeo.com/160025549

However for me it's a perfect compromise, I don't want a node for every modeling step but I use the procedural tools a lot.

Many plugins also profit from the underlying architecture, for example a tree object in Forester or arrows with the free Arrow Maker are procedural and their parameters can be modified at any time later. All parameters are animatable with a single click.

Advanced users / developers can create their own procedural objects and plugins.

135688 135689 135690

Edit: Here's a basic example of some procedural tools used for modeling:

135691

135693

135694

135692

135695

jwiede
01-23-2017, 01:12 PM
I've been working with C4d, and practically everything interesting in modeling starts with "make this item Editable (ie, polygonal)." So the parametric modeling thing has been less fundamental than I hoped.

A sign of excellent C4D modeling tutorials is that they'll arrange the workflow so as to remain procedural as long as possible. However, as Marander noted, there are certain types of operations which require going "editable" (essentially freezing the procedural primitives). One hint at the quality of tutorial is to see whether they're switching to "editable" and then immediately doing bevel/extrude-type operations, as in many, many cases those bevel/extrude operations now can and should be done procedurally (from R16 onwards).

Also, if you're looking at tutorials intended for significantly older versions of C4D, the kind of workflows you’re describing were definitely more common in the past. MAXON's added some key tools from R15 onwards specifically to facilitate keeping more workflows procedural, longer.

MichaelT
01-24-2017, 07:31 AM
This certainly raises the question: -Have LWG opened up for Houdini engine to work in the next version of LW3D?
( A small note also... I haven't made any thought if it is possible in the current version, as I don't know if there are any limitations that would prevent it for the current version. )

Marander
01-24-2017, 08:37 AM
This certainly raises the question: -Have LWG opened up for Houdini engine to work in the next version of LW3D?
( A small note also... I haven't made any thought if it is possible in the current version, as I don't know if there are any limitations that would prevent it for the current version. )

Yes indeed this would be almost a 'must have' criteria for LW 2017. At least OpenVDB support seams to be up-to-date in the new version. I'm really looking forward what the new architecture has to offer (it will be the most modern one according to Rob Powers).

"Users will also have a state of the art and one of the most modern Physically-based rendering (PBR) engines of any leading full-featured pro 3D application..."

"As we move forward our guiding principle is the desire to create a LightWave product that allows LightWave users hold their heads high with the knowledge that they have the best 3D software tool using industry standard formats and toolkits and with the most modern architecture in the industry."

These statements were from October 2015...

50one
01-24-2017, 11:09 AM
LW 2017 is already outdated.:D

jwiede
01-24-2017, 01:56 PM
This certainly raises the question: -Have LWG opened up for Houdini engine to work in the next version of LW3D?
( A small note also... I haven't made any thought if it is possible in the current version, as I don't know if there are any limitations that would prevent it for the current version. )

LWSDK definitely has limitations which currently block Houdini Engine integration in LW2015 and possibly LW.Next as well. A key issue is the inability to efficiently create or additively modify object geometry in Layout. If you look at the popular Houdini Engine components available, you'll notice almost all require ability to dynamically create/manifest geometry in host app.

LW.Next's new mesh engine will eventually address this when modeling in Layout is enabled, but unclear whether needed APIs will be LWSDK-exposed in LW.Next. Essentially, until LWSDK is enabled for full modeling in Layout, it's safe to say that LWSDK also blocks Houdini Engine integration. There are likely other LWSDK issues that could impede/block integration, it's just difficult to evaluate their severity w.r.t. Houdini Engine integration without ability to create/additively-modify geometry.

bobakabob
01-24-2017, 04:00 PM
LW 2017 is already outdated.:D

It's only January, give them a chance.

Marander
02-01-2017, 03:25 PM
I've been working with C4d, and practically everything interesting in modeling starts with "make this item Editable (ie, polygonal)." So the parametric modeling thing has been less fundamental than I hoped.

I just watched these tutorials where all the modeling (a complete guitar for example) is done procedurally. The CV Splines tools used are free (as many other CV tools and automatically installed with the CV Toolbox) for licensed users. The same can be done with C4D standard tools but with some more efforts.

https://www.cineversity.com/vidplaylist/cv-splines_to_objects/cvsplines_introduction

https://www.cineversity.com/vidplaylist/cv-splines_to_objects/cv-splines_to_objects_interactively_offset_and_chamfe r_objects

This is fun modeling!

jwiede
02-01-2017, 08:11 PM
It's only January, give them a chance.

The value of "PBR materials" as a buzzword is already waning (it's already everywhere, thus reaching saturation). If LW3DG waits too much longer, they'll miss the window.