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3dslider
10-30-2016, 08:19 AM
Hi

This idea (first thinking to cycles for modo as well) is quite old, and why not ?, that I wanna to build for Cycles for Lightwave on plugin but it will not for now, it can make some long process, before to make it I need to collect some information for development, are there any tip to do it to know and any example as from scratch for small raytracing to interact lightwave (of course some code here) ?


Welcome to idea, feature, comment, tip and other, I still am new to Lightwave so thank you to understand.

Can it develop in C++ to create a plugin for Lightwave ? What function to integrate a render engine in Layout? Is there possible to make or convert to node shaders for Cycles in Lightwave ? How to create in own ui in lightwave for option on Cycles ? If in the futur I want to sell Cycles for Lightwave, what price to quote it?


Hope to make it in concrete and it brights to contribute. :)

samurai_x
10-30-2016, 08:43 AM
I would ask Juanjo for tips. He developed octane renderer for lightwave and its integrated very well.
Begging him to do Redshift renderer for lw if he has passion for lw.
Cycles for lw I would say a price between 300 to 500 usd is fair depending on the supported features and active development. Does cycles renderer limit the license to one license per render node? Fyi lightwave renderer has 999 free nodes. This is why I use it still.

3dslider
10-30-2016, 03:09 PM
Ok for Juanjo I am open for his tips.
I will study the price to make interesting it and accesible to everyone. For license I have not yet decision but it will supported by multi core, at beginning I will make beta as free and then when it will be stable it will be marketed.
If other can give me some info before to creating a plugin as logic and system, which programming, etc...

jwiede
10-31-2016, 04:53 PM
Ok for Juanjo I am open for his tips.
I will study the price to make interesting it and accesible to everyone. For license I have not yet decision but it will supported by multi core, at beginning I will make beta as free and then when it will be stable it will be marketed.
If other can give me some info before to creating a plugin as logic and system, which programming, etc...

Bit of advice: As a "first plugin project for LW" choosing to integrate an external render engine is probably too over-reaching a goal to be practical -- there's too much reverse-engineering and API spelunking involved for someone who's never worked with LWSDK to have much hope of success.

I'd strongly recommend starting with a plugin which only requires supporting a few LWSDK APIs, and is generally less complex a project, to get yourself comfortable with the process of making LW plugins in the first place. Perhaps something like a file format import/export plugin, or a custom shading node, or so forth.

3dslider
10-31-2016, 05:50 PM
@jwiede : Thank you for your advice and I take this consideration, yeah it is somewhat a bit more complex to begin this project. I am not afraid of much work, as I said this take more time to make the process, I need that give me a good "direction" and bright some interesting information for those who know. At looking to LWSDK, apparently it is coded in C, I don't know if I can mix with C++ but I can develop in C without problem too.

Surrealist.
10-31-2016, 10:22 PM
But for something like this, LightWave is getting a new render engine. I would strongly recommend waiting to see how that stacks up and what Cycles actually can offer it does not. Cycles and cycles shaders are still very limiting even compared to LightWave now. Then you have a new mesh system coming around the corner. Not sure how that would affect any work you do on development now. In general for a project like this, I'd say wait. Obviously I have no way to know. But my gut feeling is that the new LW render engine is going to be a game changer. I don't mean like it is going to be vastly improved over other render engines. But I think it will be a huge step forward for LightWave and that it will be a very attractive solution for people looking to add LightWave to a pipeline as a render solution. Much the way it was once doing very well at. And now has lagged a little behind. My 2C.

3dslider
11-01-2016, 01:52 AM
Yes, you are right but I think Cycles for Lightwave will be complementary with the new render engine of the upcoming Lightwave :) (more choice so more possibility)
Cycles has several feature to make as possible beautiful rendering, see it : Cycles feature (https://www.blender.org/manual/render/cycles/features.html) Even limiting you will have idea enough how the possibility is quite endless
But don't worry it will for not now, I will take my time to do it and all I need is for sharing information before a plugin is applied.
The most hard to think is how to integrate node shader and OSL in Lightwave (layout) ? If all must be to rewrite in C or I can ported in C++ for LWSDK?
If there a good doc for tutorial on this I am taker.

creacon
11-02-2016, 07:13 AM
Do you have programming experience?
A good place to start is the Lightwave SDK that comes in your install directory.
It's in C but you can write your plugins in C++, doing some casting here and there.

creacon


Yes, you are right but I think Cycles for Lightwave will be complementary with the new render engine of the upcoming Lightwave :) (more choice so more possibility)
Cycles has several feature to make as possible beautiful rendering, see it : Cycles feature (https://www.blender.org/manual/render/cycles/features.html) Even limiting you will have idea enough how the possibility is quite endless
But don't worry it will for not now, I will take my time to do it and all I need is for sharing information before a plugin is applied.
The most hard to think is how to integrate node shader and OSL in Lightwave (layout) ? If all must be to rewrite in C or I can ported in C++ for LWSDK?
If there a good doc for tutorial on this I am taker.

3dslider
11-02-2016, 09:29 AM
Yes I have some programming experience in C++, I am self-educated I learned it and used often. C I use less but good programming. Ok today I successfully create the server.lib with visual studio based on documentation to see how it works and testing the samples with plugin for box it works in modeller without problem too and that is cool. However it doesn't explain how to create in C++ to tutorial. How to do it ?

Surrealist.
11-02-2016, 10:00 PM
I still think you ought to consider waiting for the next LW release and see what the rendering solution brings. I think it is going to be a game changer for LightWave rendering. So you have to consider your market for your product. Even if it is free. Or whatever your plans are. I mean people have to be interested to use it and test it. What is going to be the incentive if LightWave has a PBR based rendering solution integrated? I don't think there are going to be a lot of people interested in embracing 3P renders outside of the people already using things like Octane. Those guys will stick with Octane or whatever they are using and maybe causally explore LightWave again. Then there will be a wave of people coming back to LightWave for the rendering and also new people looking to add LightWave for rendering.

In short, LightWave's new render engine is very likely going to be a huge selling point for LightWave again. There is going to be a lot of buzz around that and not a lot of interest in 3P rendering. That is my take.

And also knowing Cycles as well as I do. It is not all that yet. Pretty cool. But I imagine the new render engine in LightWave will be heads above. Blender does not even really have a good Metalness PBR workflow yet. A lot of that stuff is still experimental. And then there is Renderman For Blender which is really more of a modern approach. Cycles is still a tad behind in that regard. Whereas LightWave will come out of the gate already on top of that technology.

That is my opinion. Take it for what it is worth.

3dslider
11-03-2016, 02:46 AM
Ok Surrealist, I will wait for new Lightwave and in the meantime I will study 3P rendering in my free time. I think it must not under estimate the power Cycles, see why? Poser integrate Cycles, I hear Rhino has Cycles bridge too or better Cycles for Cinema 4D now in development. Sure I love Lightwave for everything in workflow and rendering, the problem is too long to wait it, maybe in 2017 it will be out who know...

If not, yeah I found Lightwrap++ (https://github.com/dbw/lwpp) a C++ wrapper for the LightWave 3D SDK on Github, very cool but I don't know if it supports for Lightwave 2015 and up. I'll throw a glance how it works.

Danner
11-03-2016, 02:55 AM
To be honest I'm not that impressed with Cycles in terms of speed. Sure it's fast on exterior shots, but for interiors it takes forever to clean up the noise.

Surrealist.
11-03-2016, 03:30 AM
Ok Surrealist, I will wait for new Lightwave and in the meantime I will study 3P rendering in my free time. I think it must not under estimate the power Cycles, see why? Poser integrate Cycles, I hear Rhino has Cycles bridge too or better Cycles for Cinema 4D now in development. Sure I love Lightwave for everything in workflow and rendering, the problem is too long to wait it, maybe in 2017 it will be out who know...

If not, yeah I found Lightwrap++ (https://github.com/dbw/lwpp) a C++ wrapper for the LightWave 3D SDK on Github, very cool but I don't know if it supports for Lightwave 2015 and up. I'll throw a glance how it works.

Yeah I think you have to realize that those solutions that are using or developing for Cycles are apps where Cycles can fill a void.

And I think development for a render bridge is going to be a long drawn out process. A lot of time and effort even for someone with experience doing it. Probably years not months. And by then LightWave will be in a different place.

Surrealist.
11-03-2016, 03:34 AM
To be honest I'm not that impressed with Cycles in terms of speed. Sure it's fast on exterior shots, but for interiors it takes forever to clean up the noise.

I think it could use a denoiser. I think there is an experimental build someone is working on for that. But beyond that. What you are describing could be true for any brute force solution even LightWave. Unless there is one you have experience with to prove me wrong. But I have tired a few in the past and they are all painfully slow for interiors. So I am not totally sure Cycles really stands out. However you can call on AA in LightWave which does help. And Cycles has no AA yet to my knowledge so maybe you have a point.

creacon
11-03-2016, 05:00 AM
If you want to know how I started in c++ with the Lightwave SDK:

- rename the source file from .c to .cpp (Visual Studio will compile as c++)
- Try to compile
- Solve all the compiler errors

This is the most crude approach there is, but it works and if you know C and C++ this should be the fastest way too.

creacon




Ok Surrealist, I will wait for new Lightwave and in the meantime I will study 3P rendering in my free time. I think it must not under estimate the power Cycles, see why? Poser integrate Cycles, I hear Rhino has Cycles bridge too or better Cycles for Cinema 4D now in development. Sure I love Lightwave for everything in workflow and rendering, the problem is too long to wait it, maybe in 2017 it will be out who know...

If not, yeah I found Lightwrap++ (https://github.com/dbw/lwpp) a C++ wrapper for the LightWave 3D SDK on Github, very cool but I don't know if it supports for Lightwave 2015 and up. I'll throw a glance how it works.

creacon
11-03-2016, 05:03 AM
One more thing, if you really want to integrate an external renderer, try Embree.
It's on my todo list, but if you do it, I don't have to ;-)

creacon

ianr
11-03-2016, 06:15 AM
One more thing, if you really want to integrate an external renderer, try Embree.
It's on my todo list, but if you do it, I don't have to ;-)

creacon

Hi Creacon,

Any news on your 'Fluids 4 LW' , any thoughts?

creacon
11-03-2016, 08:02 AM
Came back from vacation, loads of work to do, now catching up so I'll get to it pretty soon.
Just have to figure out where I left of first :-)

creacon




Hi Creacon,

Any news on your 'Fluids 4 LW' , any thoughts?

3dslider
11-03-2016, 08:21 AM
If you want to know how I started in c++ with the Lightwave SDK:

- rename the source file from .c to .cpp (Visual Studio will compile as c++)
- Try to compile
- Solve all the compiler errors

This is the most crude approach there is, but it works and if you know C and C++ this should be the fastest way too.

creacon

Cool I will try this tonight. What do you think for Lightwrap++ ? Good idea to make it too?

- - - Updated - - -


One more thing, if you really want to integrate an external renderer, try Embree.
It's on my todo list, but if you do it, I don't have to ;-)

creacon

Sorry Embree is not in my todo list, hope you can do it :P

3dslider
11-03-2016, 08:29 AM
Yeah I think you have to realize that those solutions that are using or developing for Cycles are apps where Cycles can fill a void.

And I think development for a render bridge is going to be a long drawn out process. A lot of time and effort even for someone with experience doing it. Probably years not months. And by then LightWave will be in a different place.

Yeah, don't worry it will not take several years to make it but several months will suffice to bright a plugin and depend in my free time too. So we let to wait and see for new Lightwave.

3dslider
11-03-2016, 08:33 AM
To be honest I'm not that impressed with Cycles in terms of speed. Sure it's fast on exterior shots, but for interiors it takes forever to clean up the noise.

Well maybe you must use for interior as portal (https://www.blenderguru.com/tutorials/using-portals-accelerate-render-times/) to speed up and you will be impressed !

creacon
11-03-2016, 08:54 AM
Lightwrap is nice, but it's not complete and not really maintained as far as I know.
Michael Wolf is on the forum, he can tell you what's working and what not.

I would go the crude way ;-) It's closer to the metal and you'll learn more about the inner workings of LW.


Cool I will try this tonight. What do you think for Lightwrap++ ? Good idea to make it too?

- - - Updated - - -



Sorry Embree is not in my todo list, hope you can do it :P

HarverdGrad
11-03-2016, 10:07 AM
To be honest I'm not that impressed with Cycles in terms of speed. Sure it's fast on exterior shots, but for interiors it takes forever to clean up the noise.

This tutorial shows how you can speed up interior renders dramatically, using Portal Lights.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oveSskhIEAc&feature=youtu.be

Danner
11-04-2016, 03:47 AM
Thanx for the tutorial, I have used portal lights in lightwave, I never thought of trying them in cycles for some reason.

Surrealist.
11-04-2016, 05:13 AM
That is because it is a brand new feature. ;) Or well relatively new. I am not sure exactly but it was fairly recent.

3dslider
11-08-2016, 12:12 PM
Lightwrap is nice, but it's not complete and not really maintained as far as I know.
Michael Wolf is on the forum, he can tell you what's working and what not.

I would go the crude way ;-) It's closer to the metal and you'll learn more about the inner workings of LW.

Cool yeah, I was busy last time. Ok for lightwrap++ cause it is nice too but as you say I will avoid :o).
I sent to juanjo his pv, no news from him :/. But there is Michael hope can help me for dev of plugin ?
You know creacon, I successfully to build in C++ for lib and some examples and it works !
I want to learn more for LW as inner work, can you help me ? =)

- - - Updated - - -


This tutorial shows how you can speed up interior renders dramatically, using Portal Lights.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oveSskhIEAc&feature=youtu.be

Hey! You have picked my word about from portal light xD.

samurai_x
11-09-2016, 06:32 PM
If ever you'll have free time, Redshift developer are always looking for developers to create plugins.
Redshift for LW would be really useful as its a gpu biased render engine. Juanjo might be too busy with houdini plugin.

http://community.thefoundry.co.uk/discussion/topic.aspx?f=4&t=118437&page=1

"Hello,

In all honestly, Redshift had been flying under the radar for long enough where no user group can really be “blamed” for not asking for a plugin.

To give you a better idea of “why Houdini and C4D”: The main reason for Houdini support was the tons of XSI users that went to it. And that some very high-profile companies have been asking for it. And the reason for C4D is that since Redshift’s day 1 there have been tons of C4D users asking for it. Some through the forums, others through email. That is a clear indication that there’s a market for it.

And, now we have this lovely MODO thread! smile In the next several weeks, we’ll do a bit of planning for the year and will probably start asking around for MODO developers. If you know of any good ones, please ask them to contact us directly.

Thanks

-Panos"

creacon
11-10-2016, 06:24 AM
The best thing that you can do is post in the developer section of the Forum if you get stuck.
Other people that know LW / SDK can help too.

creacon



I want to learn more for LW as inner work, can you help me ? =)

- - - Updated - - -



Hey! You have picked my word about from portal light xD.

3dslider
11-11-2016, 02:56 AM
@samurai_x : sorry, I don't have time for redshift, I dedicate myself to Lightwave first (and then maybe to port with Appleseed too) and then later in modo if all go well, I have my projects so i do in priority.

@creacon : Ok as always, it is necessary as usual to manage myself, it will be long I will tell you if it works.

samurai_x
11-18-2016, 06:40 AM
They just released cycles 4d. The licensing seems affordable. :D

jwiede
11-18-2016, 10:01 PM
They just released cycles 4d. The licensing seems affordable. :D

Yeah, picked it up, the deep integration with X-Particles will be useful (X-Particles can drive Cycles4D in manners not supported by other engines). BTW, there's currently a 15% discount for existing X-Particles 3 owners (not sure if time-limited).

I'm pretty busy atm, but when I get a chance I want to do some testing how its performance compares to Octane, Thea, and VrayForC4D.

samurai_x
11-18-2016, 11:49 PM
Yeah, picked it up, the deep integration with X-Particles will be useful (X-Particles can drive Cycles4D in manners not supported by other engines). BTW, there's currently a 15% discount for existing X-Particles 3 owners (not sure if time-limited).

I'm pretty busy atm, but when I get a chance I want to do some testing how its performance compares to Octane, Thea, and VrayForC4D.

Someone did a comparison https://www.blenderguru.com/articles/render-engine-comparison-cycles-vs-giants/
Vray still wins geneally imo.
But the price for cycles4d is really affordable. I would be very interested to have this in lw.

bazsa73
11-19-2016, 02:41 AM
I use cycles from time to time in Blender but imo it is a bit too noisy, unless one raises values to the sky the noise remain considerable.
The other issue is shader setup. Similar to assembly coding.

samurai_x
11-19-2016, 06:00 AM
I use cycles from time to time in Blender but imo it is a bit too noisy, unless one raises values to the sky the noise remain considerable.
The other issue is shader setup. Similar to assembly coding.

Its unbiased, its not a smart renderer :D
But with that kind of pricing its really cheap to build 10 render nodes with multiple gpu each.
It will cost around $825.
I hope 3dslider is serious about this port.

jwiede
11-20-2016, 07:40 AM
Someone did a comparison https://www.blenderguru.com/articles/render-engine-comparison-cycles-vs-giants/
Vray still wins geneally imo.
But the price for cycles4d is really affordable. I would be very interested to have this in lw.

Insydium's dev already knew C4D inside and out, particularly w.r.t. render interfacing, etc. because of their prior X-Particles work. Drawing any conclusions w.r.t. pricing or effort required to port Cycles to LW based on Insydium's port of Cycles to C4D probably isn't wise.

3dslider
12-14-2016, 07:30 AM
Yeah ! Come back !, Ok I will return here from time to time some advancement to news in my dev.


...I hope 3dslider is serious about this port.

Don't worry samurai_x, I work hard on this, the study is about 40% for LWSDK and more testing to my work in C++. It advances little by little but surely :)
I need to study in C more depth too and working with C++. By this way, state of development is I think it will be out in 2017 (unknow date) once I will code more seriously.


For Cycles4D it is awesome ! :)

3dslider
01-11-2017, 04:36 PM
Some report to progress in 85% of study for LWSDK in my free time, pettry nice and some fun :)

I am starting to study to port in modo too, but first to cycles for lightwave in priority and then modo. I am thinking for nodes how to integrate as OSL and for interacting on 3D model to render with cycles.

Hope that will be more interesting to come.

jwiede
01-11-2017, 06:46 PM
Some suggestions w.r.t. design:


Figure out the translation table between "LW entities" and "Cycles entities", and then look at the relevant LWSDK APIs to see what data structure translations will be needed to get the LW entities' data into a entity and format acceptable to Cycles. This kind of entity relationship diagram (ERD) is a key requirement for all external renderer integrations for any 3D package. Understanding requirements, configuration and use of LWSDK external-renderer-integration APIs also should occur here, in order to understand what LW requires from your plugin and/or Cycles as well.


Determine which Cycles entities are "render-required" versus "render-optional", meaning which are basic entities and configuration you must satisfy for Cycles to function at even a basic level, versus entities and configuration which represent additional features and functionality but which are not essential to basic function.


As part of figuring out #1 & #2, you'll discover entities tend to fall into 3 categories:
"directly usable" -- entities' formats are similar enough that transfer is more copying than translation.
"directly translatable" -- where both entities' formats are understood and are highly-interchangeable.
"complex/unknown translation" -- where either entities' formats are not well known (but needed), or formats are not well-suited for interchange. This info should guide you where to spend time researching, with resolving all render-required "complex/unknown translation" entities as top priority, followed by making algorithmic choices w.r.t. render-required "directly translatable" entities next. Finally resolve any render-optional entities' translation you consider important to V1.


At this point, you should be more or less set to tackle basic/render-required GUI/UX -- come up with a basic enumeration of all the parameters you'll need to express to the user in order to give Cycles everything it needs for basic operation. Then take a look at LWSDK GUI capabilities in Panels/Xpanels and figure out a rough idea for a LW-feasible GUI config which yields the needed parameters. NOTE: This is not implementation, this is simply figuring out a _prototype_ GUI w.r.t. what types of parameters are needed and how to gather them using LWSDK Panels/Xpanels GUI elements.

Do not worry about "pretty/usable" too much yet, focus on just enough to get things up and running. As you move beyond a functioning "basic implementation" you'll almost certainly want redo the GUI design and implementation anyway, so try to stick with minimal needs (and facilitating basic testability) for this prototype GUI.


Once you've figured out translation handling, understand the relevant LWSDK and Cycles APIs, and have a prototype GUI notion in mind, you should have enough info to put together a basic viable design for initial implementation of your external render integration code, how it needs to be structured (functional/module-level breakdown), what unit tests will be needed for each module/functional-aspect, and so forth. Do so, this will become your implementation blueprint going forward.

Hope this helps, just intended as a suggestion of where to start w.r.t. your project (you may already be past all this, but if not, I thought perhaps this might help). There's an implicit dependency analysis step in the numbered items above, and you should continually maintain your own dependency analysis as you go -- otherwise there's a chance you'll be forced into serious back-tracking/re-implementation to address missing but required dependencies by LW and/or Cycles.

3dslider
01-12-2017, 07:45 AM
Great suggestions, thank you jwiede, it helps me so much.

It is hot topic for dev, but more i study more i get alot information, Cycles entities are ready it need to adapt in LW to translate so there are alot code to add and modify. For Gui I have some idea how to create thanks from tutorials, the problem are how to interact at 3D stuff and then convert in rendering as real time and update on window. I prefer to integrate in LW rather than external because the answer is up and fast to get for users, no need to tweak in/out. One more thing, I appreciate If we can talk too for more technic as scheme from LWSDK, data structure, exchange between LW and Cycles, pseudo algorithm, command, 3D, which function is for render engine ?

My todo list :
- finish to study and experiment for LWSDK
- create and prototype UI for dialog, window, button (Panel/Xpanel)
- retrieve on 3D models from LW to translate for Cycles
- prototype for nodes shaders and update in realtime
- experimental : support OSL
- support static and animation
- volumetric shaders
- all shading : diffuse, glossy, SSS, etc...
- hypervoxel support in Cycles ?
- hair/particles support ?
- Baking in Cycles ?
- ...

As soon as there is concrete in my dev, I would keep you informed.

jwiede
01-12-2017, 03:21 PM
More info/advice:

The key API sets you'll use about for enumerating the scene entities are LWItemInfo (lwrender.h), LWObjectInfo (lwrender.h), LWSceneObjects (lwmeshes.h) and LWMeshInfo (lwmeshes.h). These four API sets will give you a near-complete view of all scene entities, the lion's share of relationships present and effects applied, and so forth. As you dig into the objects themselves you'll need to use other API sets to extract properties and so forth, but these four allow you to capture the essential scene graph info and organization.

Surfacing is a tricky situation. There's a reason most third-party external renderers (with the exception of Kray) use their own surfacing systems -- it can be difficult and onerous to try to replicate LW surfacing definitions in other renderers in an accurate-enough manner to be valuable. The effort the Kray guys have put into ensuring surface compatibility for Kray is enormous, and there are _still_ cases (nodally) where Kray cannot properly replicate LW because certain key info isn't available.

Given Cycles already has surfacing capabilities well beyond those of LW (f.e. OSL), so even if you were able to 100%-accurately convert LW surface definitions into Cycles surfacing, you'd still have to provide Cycles-specific surfacing support for all the surfacing elements in Cycles which lack LW equivalents. Cycles also uses different procedurals than LW, so you'd either need to "bake" LW procedurals for use in Cycles, or allow users to somehow define surfaces using Cycles procedurals. At the end of the day, there's a reason Maxwell Render, Octane, etc. all chose to use their own custom surface definitions within LW (separate from and parallel to LW surfacing definitions).

I strongly recommend you approach surfacing similar to how Maxwell Render and Octane have approached it, rather than the Kray approach of trying to "reuse"/convert LW surfacing definitions directly. Not only is Cycles surfacing broader in capabilities than what LW surfacing can describe, the broad array of third-party nodes and shaders commonly used in LW surfacing make it very difficult to even reliably extract all details of LW surface definitions you'll commonly encounter.

Perhaps consider conversion of "basic" LW surface properties, but (at least initially) I strongly recommend you take a look (via demos) at how Maxwell Render and Octane use/configure their renderers' surfacing definitions within LW, and emulate that approach. It's worth noting that even the Kray guys ultimately realized that relying on converting LW surfacing was holding them back, and that they'd be better off using their own, parallel surfacing definitions tuned for their render engine (supposedly coming in Kray 3.x).

If this kind of info/advice isn't useful for you, please let me know and I'll stop posting it. Stay motivated! When you start to feel overwhelmed, write it all down, break it into sections, and simply iterate through them. Thorough planning helps you keep moving and on course, even when you can't see the destination from your current position. Having long-term goals ("Cycles integration in LW") is good, but you should also maintain a shorter-term daily or weekly goal ("parse entire LW scene graph using APIs") to better motivate forward progress.

MichaelT
01-13-2017, 04:32 AM
Cycles isn't that easy to use in another engine. It (obviously) is tightly integrated with Blender, and it is a mess to get a grip of its connection points. There is a project to make Cycles an independent renderer for Blender, so you might want to have a look at that one too. But it is also quite old, quite possibly dropped. Although I am guessing you already know, this is the place to begin looking: https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:Source/Render/Cycles :)

I think Embree would be an easier task to do than Cycles to be honest. As for potential market? Depending on what the next version of LW brings, it could affect it. But I think there is one regardless. If for no other reason than it is Cycles.

3dslider
01-13-2017, 12:16 PM
@jwiede : Useful for your advice, yes I was thinking to first paragrah for 3D Models but I need some more info on how to do it in programming, I must study it so if there is example on how to retrieve and translate in Cycles?
Other thing, surfacing is of course I cannot replicate as accurately, it will be base of Cycles to render all shading cause it has his own calculation of surfacing but for LW is an approximation in Cycles and do more it too.

@MichealT : Yes someone has says to me for making Embree, i dont know much for it, it is more likely raytracing API, a light that extend more in own your renderer. I am new and not yet for making my own renderer but I learn it. creacon I think he works on it. There are alot renderer, it may be Appleseed, Luxrender, Mitsuba, etc... I choose to Cycles because it is short, effective, powerful, simple, quite full feature, ready for implementation and C++.

jwiede
01-13-2017, 01:22 PM
@jwiede : Useful for your advice, yes I was thinking to first paragrah for 3D Models but I need some more info on how to do it in programming, I must study it so if there is example on how to retrieve and translate in Cycles?

Well, I highly doubt you'll find any examples for translating LW internal object data to Cycles, that would require someone else to have already done most of the work for what you're trying to do.

As for the info to do what I described in the first paragraph, the LWSDK documentation for the four API sets I described include descriptions of how to use them. Look at "(LWSDK dir)/html/index.html" in a browser and then under "Globals" for the docs on each of the API sets I described. There's an "Example" section in the description of LWItemInfo API set which demonstrates how to enumerate/traverse the entire object list and display some parameters for each object. From there, it's "just" using the other API sets to extract relationship and connected resource information about the scene entities. You won't need _all_ the data and entities/info those API sets can provide, but as a starting effort gathering all of it into your own data structures is a reasonable "learning exercise".

Knowing what you do and do not need for Cycles is an important design aspect, which is why I'm recommending you first figure out the ERDs and mappings before trying to write a bunch of code.

3dslider
01-14-2017, 06:03 AM
Yes there are some examples, I believe that I rethink more in algorithm on how to achieve it, I ask someone for help in my dev but he says cannot helps me due from copyright, ok I understand and I will have to find a solution otherwise.

LWSDK with doc, I read it, look like "as is" are fairly lean to explanation but good to starting in programming C/C++ and it can bright alot of possibility at result, it must be to choose very well too.

3dslider
01-28-2017, 05:45 AM
Probably I will be busy to post some news here due alot of amout work in my dev, I am working very hard in the scheme algorithm to try on implementing some code, very difficult but not impossible I think :)

Also starting to study all code from Cycles to integrate in plugin, there will be to have some modification to adapt for conversion 3d Models... By then I hope to get a result.

samurai_x
01-28-2017, 05:56 AM
Can cycles compile a scene and then open in another 3d app that uses cycles, too?
That's really useful in vray.

3dslider
01-28-2017, 08:13 PM
Not sure but Cycles can read xml API as input and then convert in rendering, by this way it can be use other 3D app.

jwiede
02-01-2017, 03:02 PM
Can cycles compile a scene and then open in another 3d app that uses cycles, too?
That's really useful in vray.

IIRC, Cycles doesn't yet have anything quite the equivalent of Vray's .vrmesh, .vrmat, and .vrscene external formats for cross-platform scene exchange -- at least in the sense of 3D-package-generic file representations for all entities that are needed to render a scene, as those functions provide for Vray.

It's important to remember that Vray IO infrastructure stemmed from a combination of ChaosGroup research making Vray instancing more efficient (.vrmesh's origin), as well as their dealing with Vray customer needs across many different packages (.vrmat & .vrscene origin). Cycles isn't quite at the same point in their customer or feature growth, nor have to deal with as many different client 3D packages, so it isn't that surprising that the Cycles devs aren't (yet) prioritizing such 3D-package-generic IO capabilities.

samurai_x
03-12-2017, 09:46 PM
Blender cycles 2.78
https://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?239480-2-7x-Cycles-benchmark-(Updated-BMW)

Time in minutes
i7 5820k - 06:54
Ryzen 1800x - 05.03
Nvidia GTX 1060 3GB - 01.28
Nvidia GTX 1080 Ti Founders - 47 seconds
Nvidia GTX 1080 Ti Founders + EVGA GTX 980 - 29 seconds

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=136274&d=1489376499


Cycles is improving a lot!

djwaterman
03-13-2017, 12:35 AM
It's impressive, I'm trying to convert that scene into a LightWave scene but have't had any luck, I'd have to go through object by object I think, can't be bothered. Headlight glows are great.

samurai_x
03-13-2017, 01:26 AM
It is impressive.
Its catching up to octane renderer imo.
My guesstimate its as fast as my renders in Octane v2. Can't compare octane cpu vs cycle cpu because octane hasn't released their cpu version yet. Of course it will be slow its a pathtracer on cpu.

But the licensing with cycles4D is definitely better.
185 euro for cycles render
60 euro for render nodes.

samurai_x
03-13-2017, 10:34 PM
3dslider
Any progress with integrating cycles to lightwave?

Ernest
03-14-2017, 02:23 AM
Blender cycles 2.78
https://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?239480-2-7x-Cycles-benchmark-(Updated-BMW)

Time in minutes
i7 5820k - 06:54
Ryzen 1800x - 05.03
Nvidia GTX 1060 3GB - 01.28
Nvidia GTX 1080 Ti Founders - 47 seconds
Nvidia GTX 1080 Ti Founders + EVGA GTX 980 - 29 seconds


2:54 with a GTX 660
1:48 with 2 E5-2670s

It seems strange that the author says that it look him 1:42 with a GTX 770. The difference between it and the 1060 is too small and the difference between it and the 660 is too big.

3dslider
03-14-2017, 03:22 AM
3dslider
Any progress with integrating cycles to lightwave?

Yeah, there is progress but very slowly(due from my free time) because to edit is a headache in Cycles, I need to find some good algorithm to adapt to Lightwave. I am working on retrieving for 3D model, UI interaction and 3D rendering from now, the result is not yet given.

Voilą, that i can say for the time being.

More to come later in progress.

samurai_x
03-14-2017, 04:20 AM
Thanks 3dslider.

That E5-2670s is pretty good for rendering and the price is low.
Cycles for CPU has decent performance.

annatronci
03-14-2017, 05:25 AM
if it can help this is my personal test :
BMW27

asus strix 1080 1:05.96
2 k 4200 quadro 1:33.03
i7 6800 2:38.93
dual xeon E5 2620 2:52

MichaelT
03-14-2017, 08:11 AM
Sometimes I wonder why test scenes are set for unnecessarily high quality? You can get similar results at much lower levels, and render the scene in ~20 seconds on an GTX 1080.
But the unaltered scene takes ~1m 2 seconds.

This is the 20 seconds one.
136279

samurai_x
03-14-2017, 08:47 AM
Sometimes I wonder why test scenes are set for unnecessarily high quality? You can get similar results at much lower levels, and render the scene in ~20 seconds on an GTX 1080.
But the unaltered scene takes ~1m 2 seconds.

This is the 20 seconds one.
136279

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=136279&d=1489500657
Your render is extremely noisy. And the floor is missing the beautiful blurry reflection.


This is from that thread without touching the settings in the scene.
https://blenderartists.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=357078&d=1421824577

Thats the problem with pathtracers like cycles, octane. Cleaning up the noise takes so much time compared to biased rendere like redshift.

samurai_x
03-15-2017, 07:49 AM
Anyone have a 1050 Ti for benchmarking that scene?

samurai_x
05-02-2017, 12:57 AM
So is this abandonware?
I saw 3dslider asking at the modo forums if people are interested in a modo plugin.

lardbros
05-02-2017, 06:32 AM
Just because someone goes quiet for a month or two doesn't automatically make it abandonware.

Will keep my eyes on this thread, sounds interesting!

3dslider
05-02-2017, 01:25 PM
So is this abandonware?
I saw 3dslider asking at the modo forums if people are interested in a modo plugin.

No it is not abandonware, symply i need from help to create a good plugin, hope the MODO devs can help me how to create one (that would help me for my project to Lightwave how it is works too even if there are difference from SDK?). I always am working on Cycles for Lightwave :)

I subscribe lw-plugin dev discussion on yahoo and posting something from help and... For now it is empty, no answer :/

So now I am a bit too slow but I search for solultions to it, I think however Lightwave SDK is more easy than Modo SDK is pretty wip but well it has C++.

I develop both for Lightwave and Modo because I love them.

But let's wait and see

lardbros
05-02-2017, 02:26 PM
I imagine the Yahoo places are a bit quiet these days... Many devs live on Skype these days, as it's a bit more immediate.

Might be worth hunting for a LightWave developer Skype chat or something? Will ask around and see if there are any.

lardbros
05-02-2017, 02:33 PM
The best place is probably here... There aren't any Skype chats dedicated to dev stuff at the moment, just checked... But here would be a good start!

http://forums.newtek.com/forumdisplay.php?170-Plugin-Developers-Discussion

3dslider
05-02-2017, 03:22 PM
Ok thank you lardbros, posted in dev discussion here, hope they can help me.

samurai_x
05-02-2017, 06:56 PM
No it is not abandonware, symply i need from help to create a good plugin, hope the MODO devs can help me how to create one (that would help me for my project to Lightwave how it is works too even if there are difference from SDK?). I always am working on Cycles for Lightwave :)



Someone already mentioned this

"the SDK for modo is very different to that for LW, so the effort on one will have no real benefit for the other. In terms of C++ support for LW, most developers opted to make use of the SDK wrapper 'lwpp' (from db&w) to work with that language for LW."

jasonwestmas
05-02-2017, 07:57 PM
If you are looking for reactions to this subject. . .I would be far more likely to take up redshift, renderman or arnold plugins in a lightwave context.

3dslider
05-03-2017, 03:35 AM
"...In terms of C++ support for LW, most developers opted to make use of the SDK wrapper 'lwpp' (from db&w) to work with that language for LW."

Yes lwpp is not updated for long time, the developer from db&w need to make there more functional because I have some errors from compilation on VS 2015.

3dslider
05-03-2017, 03:40 AM
If you are looking for reactions to this subject. . .I would be far more likely to take up redshift, renderman or arnold plugins in a lightwave context.

I think open source is far more easy to adapt in 3D software as plugin, these subject is more closed source so a bit hard to make it, it is my thought except to show me real example to code it.

CaptainMarlowe
05-03-2017, 03:50 AM
What about Luxrender, or Appleseed HQ, then ?

3dslider
05-03-2017, 06:50 AM
No but hey I can't do eveything to it you know ? They are cool but I am more focus in Lightwave and Modo now.

nez
05-03-2017, 07:15 AM
From what I've seen, I would be pleased seeing Fstorm, Redshift or Corona plugins. In regards of open-source, cycles is attractive and with gpu support, but there's also an open source render engine that I saw while ago called Mitsuba, pretty interesting. https://www.mitsuba-renderer.org/

MichaelT
05-03-2017, 09:31 AM
Mitsuba is (if I remember correctly) a research engine, and not really meant for production. I haven't used it myself though, so it may be more complete since last I saw it. But it is interesting. GPL is a hindrance.. most commercial companies won't touch it with a ten foot pole.

Asticles
05-04-2017, 12:57 AM
What's​ wrong with cycles? You will have cpu and gpu render with cuda and opencl, suitable also for Mac users.

MichaelT
05-04-2017, 05:25 AM
I think Cycles is a great engine, and very capable. Right up there with pretty much anything else. More importantly, it have a permissible license, allowing (like LWG for instance) to just pick it up, and use it along their own engine. Why would they want it though? Because it allows objects, and scenes (With materials) to be more readily interchangeable with Blender. I would think that is of great interest, as it would widen the target audience.

lardbros
05-04-2017, 06:26 AM
I think Cycles is a great engine, and very capable. Right up there with pretty much anything else. More importantly, it have a permissible license, allowing (like LWG for instance) to just pick it up, and use it along their own engine. Why would they want it though? Because it allows objects, and scenes (With materials) to be more readily interchangeable with Blender. I would think that is of great interest, as it would widen the target audience.

I agree! I think it'd be a great asset for the LW and Blender community alike

samurai_x
05-17-2017, 08:43 PM
Cycles for 3dmax :boogiedow

https://cyclesformax.net/



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVlhWzo_3ps&feature=youtu.be

UnCommonGrafx
05-19-2017, 03:52 PM
Chuckle.
Poke the bear.

My bmw image took 1.23 minutes. Those are nice headlights.

Gonna look at this scene but, yeah, cycles to LW (with LW looking 'moribund' by many) would be quite the useful tool for many.

Octane is king, queen, jack and for the moment; were this to come to fruition, Blender could move up to queen. Arnold would be the ace.

Where is this?
[Houdini is a joker.]

3dslider
11-10-2017, 03:10 AM
As always I work very hard, I don't see the time come lol but I am too focus on Cycles for Modo and I work as solo due from bad contract i don't like them, too much time wasted now I am back Cycles for Lightwave it is more easy than Modo, it take more time when you are solo so it advance a litte by little, from now i can't show you something what i worked, i promised to get out 2017 but there is unexpected. Hope to keep it some news lately in last 2017 if it gets too much time it is probably in 2018.

What dev i am working again :

- material and shaders
- retrieve for 3D models
- rendering real time in viewport or window
- UI and button
- plugin in layout
- need more understanding in C and C++ algorithm
- OSL is wip but disabled
- ...

Cycles for Lightwave, I am more comfortable so I make my more time on this.

See ya guys later, stay tuned more news to come.

Thomas Helzle
11-11-2017, 05:56 AM
Sounds good - keep us posted!

Asticles
11-11-2017, 06:11 AM
Please test the hybrid render with the latest build.
It's amazing.

3dslider
09-10-2018, 01:59 PM
Sorry my very late answer, what do you talk for hybrid render ?

3dslider
09-10-2018, 02:18 PM
Ok long time not posting some news... sorry i was very busy :)

I still am working, yes it takes some times to finish, sometimes it works sometimes it broke, need to make more stable this plug in.

Cycles dev was visual studio 2015 and now i am working in to port visual studio 2017 as source code, as always i work for UI, rendering realtime viewport (GPU and CPU a bit faster), 3d models, support for shader node, OSL, volumetric shader, etc...

I have several project now but it will be in 2019/2020, i am a bit more concentration on Cycles for Lightwave to hope to finish it in december 2018 / first quater 2019...Encourage me to get this plugin out :P

I have sdk LW 2015 and 2018, you think it is worth to make two plugin for LW 2015 and LW2018, right ?

Hail
09-10-2018, 09:15 PM
Glad to hear you are still working on it.
Looking forward to it.

ianr
09-11-2018, 08:32 AM
Ok long time not posting some news... sorry i was very busy :)

I still am working, yes it takes some times to finish, sometimes it works sometimes it broke, need to make more stable this plug in.

Cycles dev was visual studio 2015 and now i am working in to port visual studio 2017 as source code, as always i work for UI, rendering realtime viewport (GPU and CPU a bit faster), 3d models, support for shader node, OSL, volumetric shader, etc...

I have several project now but it will be in 2019/2020, i am a bit more concentration on Cycles for Lightwave to hope to finish it in december 2018 / first quater 2019...Encourage me to get this plugin out :P

I have sdk LW 2015 and 2018, you think it is worth to make two plugin for LW 2015 and LW2018, right ?


Can you post any screnshots, keeps the forum interested you know?

Dec2018 would be nice, so show us a little w.i.p.

3dslider
09-12-2018, 05:57 AM
Nothing is used to precipitate, I prefer to keep the surprise for the end 2018 and early 2019, sorry it's not yet, it will wait again.

Qexit
09-12-2018, 06:47 AM
Nothing is used to precipitate, I prefer to keep the surprise for the end 2018 and early 2019, sorry it's not yet, it will wait again.Sensible approach. In any case, screen grabs of a few pages of visual studio 2017 code isn't going to be of much interest to most of the people looking in on this forum :-)

ianr
09-12-2018, 08:28 AM
Sensible approach. In any case, screen grabs of a few pages of visual studio 2017 code isn't going to be of much interest to most of the people looking in on this forum :-)


Toxic Negativity was soo Last Year, Yawn ...

Qexit
09-12-2018, 08:36 AM
Toxic Negativity was soo Last Year, Yawn ...Huh ? Since when is a lighthearted remark 'Toxic Negativity' ?

ianr
09-12-2018, 09:24 AM
Huh ? Since when is a lighthearted remark 'Toxic Negativity' ?


Splitting Hairs as per normal..boring stuff