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Lewis
10-29-2016, 10:21 AM
Seems 3rdPowers is on the roll with new update/more tools :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4N5sgBbvUw

hrgiger
10-29-2016, 10:42 AM
Best one yet.

Wireframex
10-29-2016, 10:52 AM
3rdPowers Rocks !!!!

Ryan Roye
10-29-2016, 10:57 AM
Now this is real Lightwave news!

Lewis
10-29-2016, 11:03 AM
Yeah, Put that on BLOG :D

Spinland
10-29-2016, 11:04 AM
Holy Chrome! Shaddup and take my money!

erikals
10-29-2016, 11:08 AM
http://erikalstad.com/emoti/i_love_3rdpowers.gif

Chris S. (Fez)
10-29-2016, 11:11 AM
Excellent

tyrot
10-29-2016, 11:17 AM
I F...KING DO NOT CARE ANY NEWS from LW3DG for a year!

djwaterman
10-29-2016, 11:42 AM
These aren't on the site yet, do they bundle these tools at all?

Spinland
10-29-2016, 11:53 AM
These aren't on the site yet, do they bundle these tools at all?

When I bought the existing suite I emailed them and asked about bundling and they gave me a link that I hadn't seen on the main site. If you don't see any bundling offers I'd ask.

bazsa73
10-29-2016, 11:57 AM
I love that music! And the dancing telephone boothes.

DesertRat
10-29-2016, 12:03 PM
Wow! Paint Weights!!

ConjureBunny
10-29-2016, 12:07 PM
Most Impressive.

fishhead
10-29-2016, 12:10 PM
Yay!!! I wants it!!

djwaterman
10-29-2016, 12:13 PM
Does the current Lattice tool work on characters that are also animated with bones, the website doesn't say this specifically and the videos only show them being used on inanimate objects.

Spinland
10-29-2016, 12:19 PM
Does the current Lattice tool work on characters that are also animated with bones, the website doesn't say this specifically and the videos only show them being used on inanimate objects.

Not sure if this fully answers your question but RR has some tutes on them.

https://youtu.be/RKaO9YvZ17M

I haven't used the lattice deformer much but the cage deformer works a treat with rigged characters and has essentially eliminated any need for corrective morphs in my CA work.

erikals
10-29-2016, 12:21 PM
lattice deformer won't work, you will need cage deformer.

Spinland
10-29-2016, 12:27 PM
lattice deformer won't work, you will need cage deformer.

Ah, good to know, thanks for that. Like I said, haven't had much call to use lattice yet. This is an example of cage deformer on a character I did earlier this year for a commercial spot (yes, that's a Rhiggit 2.0 rig). Being able to tweak deformations on the fly during primary animation is a wonderful thing.

134934

erikals
10-29-2016, 12:31 PM
LightWaver's are also lucky to have endomorphs at their disposal.
it wasn't until 2015 Maya got something similar. :)

Spinland
10-29-2016, 12:36 PM
LightWaver's are also lucky to have endomorphs at their disposal.
it wasn't until 2015 Maya got something similar. :)

Wow, I did not know that! Heh. I had some formal training using Maya 2011 but didn't realize it lacked that feature. Interesting. All I know is I did not like it at all and couldn't wait to finish the coursework so I could get the credits and then go back to using LW.

erikals
10-29-2016, 12:42 PM
there are definitely Pros/Cons to both apps. i'm glad to see Maya is on the right path again.
don't criticize Maya too much though, Maya fanboys are the worst.

Spinland
10-29-2016, 12:50 PM
Heh. Last thing that concerns me is the butthurt of folks who can't take darts. I won't bash; that being said, I just never cared for the workflow or the "feel" of working with it. I get it has features LW doesn't, and versa-vicey, but the religious wars over which is "better" are, IMNSDHO, just silly. Let them flame. ;D

Ryan Roye
10-29-2016, 01:13 PM
Does the current Lattice tool work on characters that are also animated with bones, the website doesn't say this specifically and the videos only show them being used on inanimate objects.

Yes lattice will work, how it works will depend on what you have the lattice object parented to and it depends on the level of control you desire.

Example: Say you want to sculpt-edit the sleeves on a character's coat, you could parent the lattice object to the lower-arm bone of the character and the lattice will operate relative to its parent. Also be aware that cages/lattice are stackable.

The general rule of thumb is that lattices are for more broad edits to a mesh, and cages enable you to combine native lightwave tools and functions with its effects.

erikals
10-29-2016, 01:25 PM
but will Lattice be good for a CA rig?

Ryan Roye
10-29-2016, 01:52 PM
but will Lattice be good for a CA rig?

Yes. If you need any kind of squash and stretch for example it works well. You can also use weight maps to isolate the lattice's influence to part of a mesh. The main limitation with lattices in general is that they can't be made to move with deformations like cages can. Say you have a character with stretchable arms... a lattice wouldn't work so well because its influence can't bend with multiple joints involved, whereas a cage can. A lattice can't bend relative to the state of a model like a cage can if that makes any sense.

For character animations I most often use lattices on completed animation either to exaggerate certain motions or correct clipping.

Spinland
10-29-2016, 02:13 PM
Thanks for the tips, Ryan. As ever, you know your shite. :)

To anyone else: he sells excellent tutes on these tools and I cannot recommend buying them strongly enough.

erikals
10-29-2016, 02:47 PM
yep, it is pretty much what Ryan just said, so beware of the limitations on CA if using Lattice.

very true, Ryan really made some great tutorials over at Liberty3D.com  :)

Spinland
10-29-2016, 02:54 PM
Yep! +1000

Here's the direct link to buy the specific tutes for the topical plugins:

http://www.liberty3d.com/2014/10/cage-and-lattice-workflows-by-ryan-roye/

Tell my verbal sparring partner (we have lots of fun discussions about our disparate views on various topics elsewhere) Kat that Spinny sent you. You won't get a discount, but an eye roll or two is in order. ;)

erikals
10-29-2016, 03:16 PM
hehe, thank you! :) :)

Spinland
10-29-2016, 03:22 PM
hehe, thank you! :) :)

Heh. I am to please. You aim, too, please. (sign seen on a urinal that cracked me up)

erikals
10-29-2016, 03:39 PM
it's ridiculous peeing and laughing, creating sinus waves. :)

JCG
10-29-2016, 03:45 PM
:'''') You had me at screen lattice :heart:

jasonwestmas
10-29-2016, 04:18 PM
Jeezes, Lightwave has needed a decent vertex weighting toolbox for decades now. That camera lattice is super awesome too!

Marander
10-29-2016, 05:54 PM
Maybe the weight paint is LW Next only because it will be geometry aware? Also the colors of points etc. seems strange to me for the current LightWave. Looks interesting, specially for the use with RHiggit in Layout.

I actually decided not to get LW plugins anymore but those new ones really are interesting and I have most other 3rd Powers plugs already. Tempting...

rustythe1
10-29-2016, 06:12 PM
was my thought too, they have carefully hidden all the UI in the videos, maybe they are forcing LWG3ds hand as most of these developers must be holding off with updates to 2017, so any delay at LWG could be holding them back.

jwiede
10-29-2016, 06:29 PM
was my thought too, they have carefully hidden all the UI in the videos, maybe they are forcing LWG3ds hand as most of these developers must be holding off with updates to 2017, so any delay at LWG could be holding them back.

Seems like you may be reading too much into it, the prior 3rdPowers product annouce videos were similar: They focused mostly on the tools and their UX onscreen, and didn't show much LW UX other than when needed. That's actually good shot composition on their part. Having a bunch of unrelated LW UX visible opens up potential localization issues, and ultimately distracts from where the viewers should be focusing (the 3rdPowers tool action and UX).

They didn't say "Available now!" or anything in the video, and have a habit of pre-showing plugins they're about to release (as happened with LWBrush and a few others of their current products), so the plugins not immediately being for sale doesn't strike me as particularly unusual in this case.

jwiede
10-29-2016, 06:34 PM
:'''') You had me at screen lattice :heart:

Funny they called it that, as I believe the effect is commonly known as "Camera-/Screen-space Deformation" or equiv. in most other 3D pkgs that offer deformers that use it (f.e. C4D's Camera Deformer implementing Camera-space deformation). :devil:

Nice to have in LW, though, no question! Wonder if they have a LW.Next deformer-stack-compatible version ready as well?

@Marander, I understand how you feel and had made a similar decision. Still, might be reason to make an exception too.

I will say this makes me even more resentful that LW3DG still haven't provided ANY Layout map painting infrastructure. Map painting functionality belongs as part of the infrastructure (thus available/usable by all plugins), and clearly could have been, but despite many, many customers begging LW3DG for over a decade, they still couldn't find time to do so (or more accurately, nobody at LW3DG chose to make time to do so).

To be clear, I suspect 3rdPowers' Layout weight painting will be nicer/deeper UX than any LW3DG might have provided, and I do NOT at all resent paying 3rdPowers for their hard efforts. I just think map painting should be fundamental shared Modeler & Layout infrastructure by now (which third-parties like 3rdPowers could then build upon and extend), and find it a shame that instead it has become one more feature third-party devs have had to implement from scratch trapped out in unavoidably fragile, inaccessible third-party plugins.

I'm really thankful for what 3rdPowers have done, but can also see how much the limitations of LW's infrastructure and SDK are holding them back, esp. w.r.t. GUI and UX. It just makes me wonder how much longer they'll stick with LW, versus moving to developing for a 3D pkg with a more-capable infrastructure and larger market.

tyrot
10-29-2016, 06:34 PM
i hope they make some discount for all plugins ... bundle price ..

jeric_synergy
10-29-2016, 06:37 PM
I love the crazy music they use in their videos.

samurai_x
10-29-2016, 08:55 PM
Map painting functionality belongs as part of the infrastructure (thus available/usable by all plugins), and clearly could have been, but despite many, many customers begging LW3DG for over a decade, they still couldn't find time to do so (or more accurately, nobody at LW3DG chose to make time to do so).

I suspect its because the developers love the "strength" of the split app in lightwave.
Why else would they have developed genoma into modeler? Its a big effort that will be totally useless if they finally unify.

Dillon
10-29-2016, 11:42 PM
i hope they make some discount for all plugins ... bundle price ..

Me, too. I haven't purchased any of 3rdPowers plugins yet, but have been chomping at the bit to.

How much for a full bundle of all 3rdPowers plugins?

Ernest
10-29-2016, 11:46 PM
Noo! Freaking 3rdPowers. There go my Christmas savings! Sorry nephews!



Funny they called it that, as I believe the effect is commonly known as "Camera-/Screen-space Deformation" or equiv. in most other 3D pkgs that offer deformers that use it (f.e. C4D's Camera Deformer implementing Camera-space deformation). :devil:

The one Haux made for Softimage was called Deformation Grid and Toolchef's plugin for Maya is called Camera Lattice. So it seems there's no common name. Maybe they chose it because it was the last unused terminology combination left 8~.

jeric_synergy
10-30-2016, 12:38 AM
Thanks for the tips, Ryan. As ever, you know your shite. :)

To anyone else: he sells excellent tutes on these tools and I cannot recommend buying them strongly enough.

Seconded. No hemming nor hawing, tight scripts, good graphics: really, the gold standard of video tutorials. PLUS, info you will find NOWHERE else.

++++++++

Jeezes, Lightwave has needed a decent vertex weighting toolbox for decades now. That camera lattice is super awesome too!
Hmmmm.... what happens if you have multiple cameras in the scene? IOW, what do other cameras see???

My guess: it's global, so really this allows you to place the distortion frame at any angle by moving the distorting camera.

Now, how can that be used to our advantage?

erikals
10-30-2016, 12:40 AM
remember wishing for this tool years ago... :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjbckqGBtWQ

Prince Charming
10-30-2016, 01:36 AM
The weight paint tool will work in current lightwave. It already does... It is just an updated plugin. The point color and selections work just like that in 9.6. I am sure this all will be released before lightwave "next".

Seems like a lot of work is being done with current mesh engine. Its sure going to be a lot of work to rewrite it for new mesh engine! Cant wait to see this "new" mesh engine in action! :)

Normally I would be pissed off that this is not native, but we are better off that its not.

Thank you 3rd powers...

Farhad_azer
10-30-2016, 02:52 AM
Dumb question ladies and gentlemen but what does that camera painting (or whatever) do? how and where is it useful? i am not getting it sorry.

bazsa73
10-30-2016, 04:33 AM
Dumb question ladies and gentlemen but what does that camera painting (or whatever) do? how and where is it useful? i am not getting it sorry.

it works like liquify in AE, you distort a virtual grid and what is seen through the grid is distorted in 3D, but instead of distorting pixels you distort 3D data so in the final
render the deformation looks better. Why you would ask? Because if you distort an image, at one point you run out of pixels if you push it to the extremes while
in 3D your freedom is wider. And you can easily create funny cartoony effects this way as is shown in the video.

bobakabob
10-30-2016, 04:47 AM
The 3rd Powers toolkit opens up so many creative possibilities. These guys redefine innovative. Just the humble Translate tool alone with the addition of clone allows you to create stuff at blinding speed. LWBrush is like having a mini ZBrush inside Modeler, especially good for organic characters, but also for hard surface. The new supplementary tool looks great for hi tech creations.

Great to see weight painting in Layout at long last. This is a huge step forward for CA in LW as of course it's very close to the Maya style of fine tuning rigs following the skinning process.

Spinland
10-30-2016, 05:51 AM
And you can easily create funny cartoony effects this way as is shown in the video.

Yeah, this. Most of my CA gigs are doing comical commercial spots and I'm seeing some fun nonsense I can inflict using it. :chicken:

@jeric (because I'm too lazy to do double quotes in a post): my expectation is the effect is filtered through the projection plane of whichever camera is currently selected. If the effect is persistent, and not just an optical distortion (I just woke up and haven't gone back to re-visit their video to figure out if it's an actual deformation, but I believe it is) then a second camera's projection plane distortion would just be applied over the last version of the mesh.

Or so I think. Need coffee. ;D

ianr
10-30-2016, 08:19 AM
I have 3 days off in Doc. Strange Land & this happens!

LUUUVVEE it! KEEPING IT REAL Powers San.


MEGA -CREATIVE :rock:


(Funny even Lino found time to post on YouTube Supplement vid)


LAUNCH-DATE PLEASE

raw-m
10-30-2016, 09:10 AM
I'm definitely in. That heat map way of rigging with Paint Weight looks amazing! Also looking forward to painting on instances directly in Layout.

djwaterman
10-30-2016, 09:13 AM
remember wishing for this tool years ago... :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjbckqGBtWQ

This was exactly what came to mind for me as well, which is why I asked the question, but I don't think it will work like that as RR pointed out it would have to be tied to a bone or section of geometry. Perhaps an MDD animation with no bones would work, which is what I was hoping Chronosculpt would go on and develop, a camera perspective distortion tool-set. I hope to be proven wrong.

Spinland
10-30-2016, 09:18 AM
Would running cage deformer over the bulk of the model instead of over smaller portions of it come close to what you'd like to do? Maybe would only approximate the capability but tossing that out there as an idea.

jeric_synergy
10-30-2016, 09:53 AM
Dumb question ladies and gentlemen but what does that camera painting (or whatever) do? how and where is it useful? i am not getting it sorry.

I think Farhad meant the Weight Painting tool: it allows you to assign weights interactively in Layout, versus bouncing back and forth between LW/LWM.

The camera distortion tool lets you do what #48 says.
++++++++

:eek: Spinland, I wasn't even considering a 2nd camera distortion: the distortion looks geometric, as it tradition w/3rdP tools, and I'm guessing it's viewable from any angle. Which would be cool.

This assumes you can apply the distortion from a non-rendering camera.

prometheus
10-30-2016, 12:21 PM
3d stickers look very interesting for me, and the weight painting is improved it seems..
However..the weightpainting display showcased, seems to only be displayed per point colored, and not as nice as the modeler weight paint..or painting weights in blender for instance, I didnīt like that with the old free weight paint tool for lightwave, and I donīt think itīs good enough for layout if it is only possible to display it this way and just point colored weight display and not full polygons with the new tools.

Sure better than nothing, you get a rough visualization of the painted area with point colored representation of the weight.but common, proper weight paint display please as it is in modeler.
I will not buy in to any of his plugins until lightwave 2017 is released and after testing lightwave 2017 stability and features, meantime I will be busy anyway the two upcoming months with some temporary work not related to 3d.

prometheus
10-30-2016, 12:44 PM
I do hope they open up the sdk so much that it will be a breeze to connect the weight paint with instances, particles..and TurbulenceFD emission, I just tested fluid fire and smoke emission after painting in weights in blender, and itīs really easy to setup with vertex group and then continue to add in weight paint and update it to have fire and smoke rise from any weight painted area in blender, I doubt it will be in there for the next lw release, would be sweet if they could surprise us with some santa magic.

I spent some hours some day ago trying to get more customed with the nodes for fire and smoke materials in blender, and I am getting a hang of it now, but itīs not as smooth and easy as turbulenceFD, since that is already set up in principle, TurbulenceFD is also more focused in the sense you find yourself with a toolset that is easier to set up, adding container, emitter etc, while in blender it has a different naming convention (domain) and you have to individually set it to be either domain or flow object, and make sure you set both the emitter as the right fluid object and the other container object as the right domain object type, so blender is a bit more messy that way..but hey, itīs free.
Sorry for spinning off topic.

Farhad_azer
10-30-2016, 12:59 PM
Thanks guys, now i get it that the grid prepare you with enough pixels to use as deformer.

Long time no see Jeric, i thought you are still angry with me,

Actually i am aware of the role of painting and bazsa73 understood me well.

I have no plugin from 3rd power and might get one or two soon.

Chris S. (Fez)
10-30-2016, 02:36 PM
LW Group, will these work with LW Next?

50one
10-30-2016, 03:36 PM
LW Group, will these work with LW Next?

If anyone from LWG going to respond to your question I might eat my own shoe and film it.

Wickedpup
10-30-2016, 03:53 PM
LW Group, will these work with LW Next?

Think I'll await any purchase until Next has been released. :oye:

MichaelT
10-30-2016, 04:42 PM
I won't wait for a new release to pick that up :) Those are seriously productive tools.

prometheus
10-30-2016, 06:49 PM
I won't wait for a new release to pick that up :) Those are seriously productive tools.

Yep...I think they are, for those working with 3d that is, currently I will be working in a field not related to 3d for some months, so to me it really doesnīt matter, and I do not have any freelance projects planned either, so even if I would want them for the share fun of it, it isnīt wise to invest for me, I rather see how the 2017 lightwave behaves and also weigh that in later with a purchase of 3rd power tools, meanwhile when sparetime allows, just fiddling around with lightwave for what it does today, and continue to learn blender more and more.

jwiede
10-30-2016, 07:09 PM
IMO, the question to ask yourself is whether you'll receive adequate RoI* from LW plugin purchases to offset the depreciation of plugin value when/if LW eventually integrates the same functionality (or your reduced usage of LW makes LW plugin RoI irrelevant). Even if a third-party plugin's functionality winds up 100% integrated into LW a few months from now, if having that functionality now saves you enough time/effort to offset that cost quickly, then rationally you still benefit from the purchase of the plugin even though LW later integrates the plugin's functionality.

Supporting innovative third-party plugin devs also generally encourages and supports their further LW plugin development (as well as the LW third-party "ecology" overall). For many LW plugin developers, keeping them interested and developing for the LW market is worth a certain amount of lost RoI down the road when/if LW3DG integrates the same functionality into LW.

*: Even for non-pro/hobbyist customers, time/effort (efficiency) savings still represents "value" (RoI).

jasonwestmas
10-30-2016, 07:23 PM
yeah it doesn't really matter what LW Next will bring. If you need the functionality now then it makes a lot of sense to just get the plugins asap.

jwiede
10-30-2016, 07:28 PM
LightWaver's are also lucky to have endomorphs at their disposal.
it wasn't until 2015 Maya got something similar. :)

In what sense? Maya's Blend Shapes have been around for a LONG time, and serve equivalent purpose (effectively, PLA-as-deformer).

samurai_x
10-30-2016, 07:59 PM
erikals still posting malware smileys. sheesh.

Yeah it doesn't really matter what lw next will bring. Its not being released anytime soon anyway if we're to believe what Lino said on facebook.
And they won't have time to create a weight painting tool in layout for maybe like 5 years. Since they removed the old render engine and working on a new one that they plan to work with all functions of layout goodluck waiting! Lw 7 to lw 2015 is how many years and no weightpainting?
I'm not going to wait for newtek. That's the only plugin I'm 1000% sure I'm getting with this new batch of 3rdpowers plugins.

tyrot
10-30-2016, 08:30 PM
i totally agree with you on this .. samurai.. I just do not want LW3DG mess up things after i purchase this plugin :) JUST DO NOT MESS UP! ( keep writing CPU renderer till 2020 ... i do not care )

jasonwestmas
10-30-2016, 09:41 PM
In what sense? Maya's Blend Shapes have been around for a LONG time, and serve equivalent purpose (effectively, PLA-as-deformer).

mhmm, I don't know why a few people keep bringing this up. . . that endomorphs are so superior to other morphing systems. Objects used to create the Blend shapes can be removed from the scene afterward without breaking anything. . .the shape still resides inside the base-object's node stack.

samurai_x
10-30-2016, 10:19 PM
mhmm, I don't know why a few people keep bringing this up. . . that endomorphs are so superior to other morphing systems. Objects used to create the Blend shapes can be removed from the scene afterward without breaking anything. . .the shape still resides inside the base-object's node stack.

Because their maya "experience" is obsolete. Difference between actually used maya for work and just tried it for a few hours.

erikals
10-31-2016, 01:47 AM
erikals still posting malware smileys. sheesh.
sorry, did you try the ignore function?

erikals
10-31-2016, 01:51 AM
mhmm, I don't know why a few people keep bringing this up. . . that endomorphs are so superior to other morphing systems. Objects used to create the Blend shapes can be removed from the scene afterward without breaking anything. . .the shape still resides inside the base-object's node stack.

Yes!! thank you for replying, i always end up having to defend awkward Maya workflows, for reasons that don't make sense.

12sunflowers
10-31-2016, 02:07 AM
Is there way to do that manual, without plugin?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctESAMUQYv8

VermilionCat
10-31-2016, 02:42 AM
Of course you can but people buy plugin because it's very tedious to do...

Surrealist.
10-31-2016, 04:34 AM
mhmm, I don't know why a few people keep bringing this up. . . that endomorphs are so superior to other morphing systems. Objects used to create the Blend shapes can be removed from the scene afterward without breaking anything. . .the shape still resides inside the base-object's node stack.

All the way up to the point that you start going back and forth between Maya and MotionBuilder. Then even if you have deleted the objects it will create them again when you send it back from MotionBuilder. Strange.

But other than that, there is little to be gained from LightWave system over that which has been in Maya forever. At least on a functional level. LightWave Endomorphs I guess are a lighter memory footprint. But the system as it is in Maya is equally functional as you can change morphs by editing the object just as you can with Editing a morph map. It also has a few advantages.

But back to the topic. Man those plugins are amazing. Really changes LightWave rigging 180 degrees. Actually replacing most of what is missing in LW rigging as far as weight paint and weight transfer/mirroring.

I'd say they are a must have.

Shouldn't LW 3D Group simply buy these guys out and hire them? Much like Maya did with the NEX team. Those tools are still one of the reasons I come back to Maya modeling. In fact these days, the only reason.

Spinland
10-31-2016, 04:47 AM
Man those plugins are amazing. Really changes LightWave rigging 180 degrees. Actually replacing most of what is missing in LW rigging as far as weight paint and weight transfer/mirroring.

I'd say they are a must have.

Shouldn't LW 3D Group simply buy these guys out and hire them?

Without knowing enough about the LW3DG's circumstances to make a solid case, I'm 100% in agreement with this sentiment. It seems the 3rd Powers group is exactly what LW could use on the team.

Surrealist.
10-31-2016, 05:19 AM
Just seems like these guys have been able to do exactly the things the current team have been unable or unwilling to do. Granted. The unified mesh system is a must. So when I say "unwilling" I mean perhaps seeing other priorities. As far as unable. Let's face it. No two people are alike. That is what makes a team a team and each software unique. And these guys have done what for years and years and eons we have been told is near to impossible. And yet here they do it with flying colors and give rigging the tools people need. Amazing. Hard to say what the dynamics of the situation are exactly from the outside looking in. But on the surface it sure seems like a fit.

12sunflowers
10-31-2016, 06:58 AM
Of course you can but people buy plugin because it's very tedious to do...
How to do that? What technics is used in Metamesh plugin, Metaball, SUBD, boolean?

samurai_x
10-31-2016, 07:26 AM
sorry, did you try the ignore function?

Well i did. Then unignored you back. Its kind of useless since just visiting the newtek forums, without logging in, your smileys show up again anyway and sets off an alarm. Or if I'm in some other workstations where I don't have a login account there again the malware smileys show up.
Why use them anyway? They don't give you extra personality. :D
Already some usable smileys in the forums tools.

jasonwestmas
10-31-2016, 07:58 AM
All the way up to the point that you start going back and forth between Maya and MotionBuilder. Then even if you have deleted the objects it will create them again when you send it back from MotionBuilder. Strange.

But other than that, there is little to be gained from LightWave system over that which has been in Maya forever. At least on a functional level. LightWave Endomorphs I guess are a lighter memory footprint. But the system as it is in Maya is equally functional as you can change morphs by editing the object just as you can with Editing a morph map. It also has a few advantages.

But back to the topic. Man those plugins are amazing. Really changes LightWave rigging 180 degrees. Actually replacing most of what is missing in LW rigging as far as weight paint and weight transfer/mirroring.

I'd say they are a must have.

Shouldn't LW 3D Group simply buy these guys out and hire them? Much like Maya did with the NEX team. Those tools are still one of the reasons I come back to Maya modeling. In fact these days, the only reason.

Mhmm, that's the nature of FBX format. It stores the morph targets as actual objects.

Theoretically, buying out a 3rd party is a good idea if you have the right amount of support to continue the development. But I don't think LW3DG has a large enough team based on what I have seen with FiberFX. On the other hand I think newtek just hired third parties outright to develop LW for them in the past. The dynamics system I think was developed by a third party team in the LW 8 days. Not sure why I think that but I was always under that impression.

Marander
10-31-2016, 08:15 AM
How to do that? What technics is used in Metamesh plugin, Metaball, SUBD, boolean?

Metamesh creates SubD topology for interactive "boolean" operations (join, subtract etc.). Normal boolean would not work with SubD. Of course you can create the SubD topology yourself, but Metamesh makes it very easy and interactive. However sometimes the resulting mesh is not so clean so it's good to know how to create proper SubD topology in the various situations yourself (or fix SubD mesh issues manually).

jeric_synergy
10-31-2016, 09:05 AM
Why use them anyway? They don't give you extra personality. :D
Already some usable smileys in the forums tools.
I don't experience the problem, and I still agree w/samurai_x. Why use some weird hosted smiley?

12sunflowers
10-31-2016, 09:46 AM
@Marander Thank You! And what programming language used for 3d powers addons?

Surrealist.
10-31-2016, 10:21 AM
Mhmm, that's the nature of FBX format. It stores the morph targets as actual objects.

Theoretically, buying out a 3rd party is a good idea if you have the right amount of support to continue the development. But I don't think LW3DG has a large enough team based on what I have seen with FiberFX. On the other hand I think newtek just hired third parties outright to develop LW for them in the past. The dynamics system I think was developed by a third party team in the LW 8 days. Not sure why I think that but I was always under that impression.

Interesting. Did not know that about fbx.

Here is the rub about LW and 3rd P dev for native LW tools. I think it was Jay Roth who lamented on this forum many years back about the IKB system. I remember at the time a few people were carrying the torch for it. Colin and Larry for example. And there was a renewed interest in it. And of course the heated debates about it. And the call for "Why did they stop developing it, or why no complete docs" etc. And Jay Roth stepped up and basically called it a mistake he had no intention of repeating. Because obviously the guy left it where it was. So he was saying he would never do anything like that again. Indicating using someone from the outside to develop something was unreliable. And of course he has a point. That can be an issue. No support, no further development.

But then, what is he alternative? No IKB?

IKB still addresses many of the issues you run into with native LW animation. I mean interface things that are nice to have that LW native does not have.

But the main point I think is that there are features there that have never come to LW native.

And in the case of these new rigging tools. Here we are, a developer does something in what looks like a few months work that the LW team has never been able to do even though you'd have to admit it is at the top of the list of complaints and requests.

Of course we have the new mesh system. That should be finished first. No doubt about it.

But what about LW Next and beyond?

Did Jay Roth lay down a new law they are still following? No 3P involvement in LW native tools. I sure hope not because now more than ever they are going to need all of the help they can get. There is a long uphill road to bring all of the tools up to speed in the new system.

Even AD development has the ability to recognize talent when they see it and try to incorporate.

But I also imagine that for every one of those successes there are many many deals that can just never get done. Wrong dynamics, personalities, unable to reach financial agreements etc.

Probably easy for us to sit here and say it is a no brainer. But the ability to pull off those deals has got to be hard. Not just about money either.

I would just hope that they have not given up entertaining the idea.

Kryslin
10-31-2016, 10:22 AM
Lightwave plugins, such as these, are programmed in C.

I hope they got the glitchiness worked out of the weight painting plugin. While a neat idea (and I especially am interested in the heat mapping functions), it tended to play hell with LW 9.6.1

Norka
10-31-2016, 10:34 AM
3RD Powers couldn't art direct their way out of wet paper bag, and have horrible taste in music... but holy crap do they make kickass plugs! I LOVE my MetaMesh, LWBrush, and HeatShrink Plus! Can't wait to get my mitts on the new stuff!

bazsa73
10-31-2016, 11:38 AM
3RD Powers couldn't art direct their way out of wet paper bag, and have horrible taste in music... but holy crap do they make kickass plugs! I LOVE my MetaMesh, LWBrush, and HeatShrink Plus! Can't wait to get my mitts on the new stuff!

What's wrong with that music? I love it.

Ryan Roye
10-31-2016, 12:12 PM
What's wrong with that music? I love it.

who even cares? The quality of their tools is so ridiculously high it doesn't matter what they do to promote them now.

Prince Charming
10-31-2016, 12:13 PM
Lightwave plugins, such as these, are programmed in C.

I hope they got the glitchiness worked out of the weight painting plugin. While a neat idea (and I especially am interested in the heat mapping functions), it tended to play hell with LW 9.6.1

I used it extensively with 9.6 without ever having an issue... not saying you are wrong, but I never had a problem using it on my system.
My main problem with the new version of the tool is that it is a missed opportunity. Why is it only weights? IMO, a well thought out tool would have include painting, transfer, and nodal creation of all vertex maps (morphs, uv, color, weight). That would be a proper tool... This is just a small patch on a big gaping wound of missing functionality (compared to other apps). I do intent on getting it, but its not really what I have been hoping for.

bobakabob
10-31-2016, 01:10 PM
Music, what music?

Paul Goodrich
10-31-2016, 01:12 PM
Hi just tried to email them for release dates and if there's a bundle price and it failed. Any idea how to contact them?
This is what I got:

Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:

[email protected]

Technical details of permanent failure:
Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the server for the recipient domain 3dpowers.com by 3dpowers.com. [199.79.63.144].

The error that the other server returned was:
550 No Such User Here"

calilifestyle
10-31-2016, 01:20 PM
Have to say 3D sticker is kind of cool. Can't wait to check it out.

Spinland
10-31-2016, 01:30 PM
Hi just tried to email them for release dates and if there's a bundle price and it failed. Any idea how to contact them?
This is what I got:

Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:

[email protected]

Technical details of permanent failure:
Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the server for the recipient domain 3dpowers.com by 3dpowers.com. [199.79.63.144].

The error that the other server returned was:
550 No Such User Here"

[email protected]

hrgiger
10-31-2016, 01:36 PM
Also, drop these guys an email while you're at it and see when their new software will be out. https://www.lightwave3d.com/contact/

Paul Goodrich
10-31-2016, 02:28 PM
sure, you think that'll work?

Mastoy
10-31-2016, 02:54 PM
Also, drop these guys an email while you're at it and see when their new software will be out. https://www.lightwave3d.com/contact/

Ok I laughed :D

Spinland
10-31-2016, 03:11 PM
Edited because I'm a doofus and responded to a question not directed at me. ;D

sadkkf
10-31-2016, 03:47 PM
Shouldn't LW 3D Group simply buy these guys out and hire them? Much like Maya did with the NEX team. Those tools are still one of the reasons I come back to Maya modeling. In fact these days, the only reason.

I'm against this idea. Independent developers such as myself should be able to build the tools we want. We look for gaps in an application's features then work to fill them. I don't want to be bought out then hired. Working as a freelancer then becoming an employee leaves a bad taste in my mouth. No offense to NewTek, but I prefer to remain independent and I'd wager 3rd Powers does too.

hrgiger
10-31-2016, 03:59 PM
Yes, I'd like to have a 3rd party community with focus on development on their tools, not navigating architecture and possible other development priorities under LW3DG.

Prince Charming
10-31-2016, 04:00 PM
I'm against this idea. Independent developers such as myself should be able to build the tools we want. We look for gaps in an application's features then work to fill them. I don't want to be bought out then hired. Working as a freelancer then becoming an employee leaves a bad taste in my mouth. No offense to NewTek, but I prefer to remain independent and I'd wager 3rd Powers does too.

Yeah, I agree, but the problem arises when the host app lacks too much functionality, and the cost of buying all necessary third party plugins puts the cost above what other apps offer natively, and totally integrated into the app in all areas... Not 100s off separate tools from separate developers all mashed together and dont function with each other elegantly... Do we really need another time line????????????????

I do agree that it is not good to go from self employed to employee, but there is nothing wrong with selling the tools to NT outright. Granted, with NTs past record of dead abandoned tools its probably not the best outcome, but neither is having many tools from different developers that dont function well together.

sadkkf
10-31-2016, 04:10 PM
Yeah, I agree, but the problem arises when the host app lacks too much functionality, and the cost of buying all necessary third party plugins puts the cost above what other apps offer natively, and totally integrated into the app in all areas... Not 100s off separate tools from separate developers all mashed together and dont function with each other elegantly... Do we really need another time line????????????????

I do agree that it is not good to go from self employed to employee, but there is nothing wrong with selling the tools to NT outright. Granted, with NTs past record of dead abandoned tools its probably not the best outcome, but neither is having many tools from different developers that dont function well together.

LightWave has a long way to go, but at least NewTek is addressing the issues. It may not happen as quickly as we want, but progress is progress.

And if you sell the code to LW3G, that's it. It's no longer a revenue stream.

Prince Charming
10-31-2016, 04:18 PM
And if you sell the code to LW3G, that's it. It's no longer a revenue stream.

For the right price it can still be worth it... and you can always move on to making new tools.
Like I said though... in our case NT taking over anything is probably the worst case scenario, but for normal companies buying plugs, and continuing to develop/ integrate them can benefit the users, the third parties, and the over all quality off the app.

prometheus
10-31-2016, 04:43 PM
Just give me turbulenceFD natively in lighwave without additional cost, and I may consider skipping using the free fire and smoke tools in blender :) those tools are capable, but not as comfortable to work with the fire and smoke shader as it is with turbulence, one advantage is the weight paint to allow for direct painting of areas for fire and smoke, and in jaschasīs hands it doesnīt matter how much he develops turbulence, unless the lw team isnīt doing anything about weight paint and implement fluid emission per vertex/weigth paint group.....itīs really fun working with weigth paint and fire and smoke emission in blender.

So things like implementation with other lw toolsets, weight paint lacking, lack of particle advecation, lack of a proper fluid previewer etc, I would like to see a native solution when it comes to such complex plugin as turbulenceFD that may need to "talk" to other parts of lightwave more than for instance certain modeling tools.

vpr rendering of volumetrics and simulation of turbulenceFD fluids is faster though, so for effeciency I would probably prefer that as a "production tool"

erikals
10-31-2016, 06:10 PM
My main problem with the new version of the tool is that it is a missed opportunity. Why is it only weights? IMO, a well thought out tool would have include painting, transfer, and nodal creation of all vertex maps (morphs, uv, color, weight). That would be a proper tool... This is just a small patch on a big gaping wound of missing functionality (compared to other apps). I do intent on getting it, but its not really what I have been hoping for.
definitely hope to see some of that in not too long. LightWave 2017 does have some Cronosculpt / Hydra tech (afair), so not impossible we could see it in 2018. http://smileysmile.net/board/Smileys/default/old-vi.gif

Surrealist.
10-31-2016, 10:38 PM
I'm against this idea. Independent developers such as myself should be able to build the tools we want. We look for gaps in an application's features then work to fill them. I don't want to be bought out then hired. Working as a freelancer then becoming an employee leaves a bad taste in my mouth. No offense to NewTek, but I prefer to remain independent and I'd wager 3rd Powers does too.

Yeah this is exactly what I was talking about when I said the dynamics of any deal. I imagine you are not alone. But for every one of you there are those who it would be a good fit for. I think the largest hurdle would be the current development cycle with the new engine. I'd say once they get through that, they will be above water so to speak.

My only hope is that they have not written it off as an idea completely. LightWave is becoming more and more expensive to own if you need tools with a more modern workflow. So if there are any of these relationships that are possible. I sure hope they are entertaining the idea.

samurai_x
11-01-2016, 12:42 AM
Just give me turbulenceFD natively in lighwave without additional cost, and I may consider skipping using the free fire and smoke tools in blender :)

For free? jasonwestmas was right. :D

I use blender fluids myself but if it came out for lw I would gladly pay for it.
Lightwave is currently $695. Not even half the cost of the next rival Modo. We can't really compare a commercial product to a donation software like blender. You do know blender users get paid the pitiful wages or nothing when working on indie stuff, right? :D

Spinland
11-01-2016, 05:02 AM
Working as a freelancer then becoming an employee leaves a bad taste in my mouth. No offense to NewTek, but I prefer to remain independent and I'd wager 3rd Powers does too.

Very solid point, and I retract my earlier musing. I would be massively reluctant to crawl back into a corporate cubicle after tasting my current freedom. :jam:

JohnMarchant
11-01-2016, 06:25 AM
I would not be happy to see any of our major third party plugin suppliers become part of LightWave. Its better they are independent, we get more updates, more addressing of bugs and more communication from most of these than i think we wold get from LWG3D.

3DPowers, LWCad, Advanced Placement and a host of other should stay independent. Also it forces LWG3D to come up with their own solutions to tools we need. So we end up with more choice.

prometheus
11-01-2016, 08:55 AM
For free? jasonwestmas was right. :D


I use blender fluids myself but if it came out for lw I would gladly pay for it.
Lightwave is currently $695. Not even half the cost of the next rival Modo. We can't really compare a commercial product to a donation software like blender. You do know blender users get paid the pitiful wages or nothing when working on indie stuff, right? :D


for free? what was jasonwestmas stating that pertains to me?
I donīt get paid either for anything 3d related currently:D so it makes no sense to invest in turbulenceFD, (pitty cause I think I could spit out very good stuff with it and have a good sense of fire and smoke fluids), but Unless I am very rich and doesnīt care, or unless I will get a project for it that may also bring income, and I will be working the upcoming month with non 3d related stuff, after that I have to see what is up.
I was very interested some time ago, but things as particle advection never arrived(lw sdk didnīt allow for it, incitament for a proper native solution maybe?) and some crashes made me decide not to invest.

Otherwise I would simply stick to blender that is growing on me, though as I said, if I would have a project for fire and smoke to work on, I would Probaby turn to an investment in turbulenceFD, since I think the quality of the fire and smoke in blender isnīt unpar with turbulence, neither is the render speed of volumetrics, neither is the simulation speed, with turbulence all values is focused in itīs modules, where in blender you always have to be aware of all the places you connect everything in order to make it work, not sure if they have updated that stuff with a already good to go setup for the fire and smoke shader, it is said to be in the plans.

This one is quite good to get started with rendering fire and smoke with node material, and in the end you can compile the nodes to a node modul for easier overview and acess the the material values, itīs good to get started with and follow and play around and to understand the nodes, such as using two volume nodes and combine with add shader, making sure you retrieve density and flame data through the attribute node and plug it correspondly to volume and absorbtion scatter and flame attributes to emission node values, then you can combine that with color ramps or a blackbody node, the blackbody probably needs a math or contrast/brightness node to be of any good use.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSiV5gg_lCs

It is by my opinion far more easier and faster to setup and render fire and smoke in turbulenceFD though.

Getting it for free purchasing it is
foremost always a question of...do I need this plugin, what can it do for me other than just fun, and do I have the money for it, secondly it becomes a question of actually supporting the plugin developers by an actual purchase.

Ligthwave fluids for free natively, no I can not be so naive and think that is feasable, I could imagine them raising the price a bit for that...but perhaps with a consideration on not making it as expensive as the third party plugin in order for actually making lightwave itself more attractive and affordable, of course they need to pay a developer anyway or two so I can really not argue that much on what pricing it should go with.


So in a sense I can imagine to pay for it, and such things as it will be under the hands of the developing team and also constantly developed together with lw in a way that the communication time and developing time may be shortened and cover things like in this case, missing sdk options for particle advection, and a proper fluid previewer, then I would consider paying for it for an increased lightwave price.
Again..I beg you pardon for the temporary..(I hope) off topic to the thread.

Michael

tyrot
11-01-2016, 08:57 AM
earlier i was thinking they should be integrated .. after what i see .. we must do everything in our power to make them STAY OUT of LW office..

prometheus
11-01-2016, 09:09 AM
earlier i was thinking they should be integrated .. after what i see .. we must do everything in our power to make them STAY OUT of LW office..

I miss developed third party plugins like ogo taiki, dynamite, naturefx, sasquatch, particle storm..and more, all gone to do something else and not properly supported anymore, neither replaced quite good either with other similar plugins or native solutions,(fiberfx..maybe? :) )
I recall according to jay roth, they did try to contact the dynamite guy, but he never responded...so if that had been under lw wings, we could have had both fluids fire and smoke and enhanced voxels long time ago, I donīt think we eve will get some of the nifty dynamite voxel features with the new volumetrics.

Canīt blame anyone though, either they get hold of a developer to work for them or with them, or they donīt..things need to match what third party devs like to do as well, and you just donīt start to work on something you do not have the skills to work on.

I was a bit sad some of the things like protoskelegons that David Ikeda is developing now, isnīt part of upcoming lightwave, since I enjoy the skin modifier in blender, that is a feature I would like to have in lw.

JohnMarchant
11-01-2016, 09:20 AM
I really wish OGO Taiki was 64 bit and still in devolpment, really loved that plugin.

Blender continually impresses me, just need to get my head into that UI, but wow for free its powerful.

prometheus
11-01-2016, 09:23 AM
I really wish OGO Taiki was 64 bit and still in devolpment, really loved that plugin

yep me too, though I think for it to compete with the various landscape software sky engines, it would have needed a boost in speed, and some UI polishing and some quality settings consolidated to just a few settings, for easier control.

I canīt be sure..but I donīt think we will see anything like it with the next release of lightwave, not with the new volumetrics anyway, so people would still have to go with the ozone plugin if you would want to work solely in lightwave, and I really disliked the ozone plugin.

jwiede
11-01-2016, 07:46 PM
LightWave has a long way to go, but at least NewTek is addressing the issues. It may not happen as quickly as we want, but progress is progress.

Let's wait till there's an actual release containing said progress. Most of the last ten years prior to now have been stapling plugins onto LW, or futzing about tweaking inside the render engine, and frankly, neither of those are the kind of "progress" that can meaningfully benefit LW at this point. Unless/until LW3DG provides concrete evidence of meaningful infrastructure improvement that customers can all test and use for ourselves, it basically doesn't exist.

jwiede
11-01-2016, 07:55 PM
I would not be happy to see any of our major third party plugin suppliers become part of LightWave. Its better they are independent, we get more updates, more addressing of bugs and more communication from most of these than i think we wold get from LWG3D.

In fairness, that's a _serious deficiency_ on LW3DG's part that needs addressing ASAP. Their failure to release fixes and updates in timely manners over such long periods (unlike nigh-ALL of their competitors) is inexcusable, and another example of LW3DG's mistreatment of LW customers.

Surrealist.
11-01-2016, 08:11 PM
It has been pretty clear to me what is happening from the information and the lack of it. Simple. Big milestone. Talking time. Working out the kinks, adding features. Making sure all is working. Just because it is taking longer is no reason to make any other assumptions.

The new engine and the rest of it is going to take time to add more features. Let's just hope after this milestone is out of the way new releases are more frequent and development speeds up.

But then, there has been enough talk about this in at least a dozen other threads has there not?

If you need these plugs get them. Fantastic as they are.

Native LW still has a way to go no matter how you figure it.

hrgiger
11-01-2016, 08:43 PM
Let's wait till there's an actual release containing said progress. Most of the last ten years prior to now have been stapling plugins onto LW, or futzing about tweaking inside the render engine, and frankly, neither of those are the kind of "progress" that can meaningfully benefit LW at this point. Unless/until LW3DG provides concrete evidence of meaningful infrastructure improvement that customers can all test and use for ourselves, it basically doesn't exist.

Well I don't think that's quite a fair assessment at all. Instancing, Flocking, Python, VPR, Bullet, Genoma, Spline Control, match perspective, dynamic parenting, numerous improvements for rendering as well as interchange options... these aren't simply stapling of plugins onto Lightwave and we don't know how much work went into making these features work given what we know about past limitations of the LightWave architecture. Lets give some credit where credit is due.

As far as fixes go, fixes go out fairly quickly after releases (3 for the 2015 release, although 4 if you count a small patch that went out) and we know full well that other software vendors in this market don't fix everything with each release either so LW3DG is not alone in this. We also know that LW3DG is a fairly small group of developers and are also tasked with removing past limitations which seems to be the goal of LightWave Next. And yes, we won't know until the software is released but if it even lives up to what was shown in the blog posts, I'd be pretty happy with that for a single release, even more so when you consider what price they're asking.

DogBoy
11-02-2016, 03:57 AM
Why else would they have developed genoma into modeler? Its a big effort that will be totally useless if they finally unify.
Maybe because they didn't have a unified app, and there was a need for newer rigging tools? We're still quite a way from a unified app, so at least we can use Genoma _now_ instead of waiting 10 years for unified rigging tools.

DogBoy
11-02-2016, 04:02 AM
LW Group, will these work with LW Next?

LW3DG are very unlikely to talk about whether 3rd party plug-ins will work with unreleased apps. Let's face it they aren't saying much about the unreleased app either ;)

Paul Goodrich
11-04-2016, 07:09 AM
Well I email'ed 3rd Powers and got no response. I don't know if that's good or bad.

tyrot
11-04-2016, 07:12 AM
they reply a bit late ... no worries

JohnMarchant
11-04-2016, 07:19 AM
In fairness, that's a _serious deficiency_ on LW3DG's part that needs addressing ASAP. Their failure to release fixes and updates in timely manners over such long periods (unlike nigh-ALL of their competitors) is inexcusable, and another example of LW3DG's mistreatment of LW customers.

Could not agree more, its a failing on their part. Im spending more and more time with Blender i find. Wow that has come on in leaps and bounds since the last time i tried to use it. Just wish BF would leap a little bit further and sort out the UI, its a nightmare for users from other 3D Packages, but i digress :):)

Julez4001
11-04-2016, 09:03 AM
IMO, the question to ask yourself is whether you'll receive adequate RoI* from LW plugin purchases to offset the depreciation of plugin value when/if LW eventually integrates the same functionality (or your reduced usage of LW makes LW plugin RoI irrelevant). Even if a third-party plugin's functionality winds up 100% integrated into LW a few months from now, if having that functionality now saves you enough time/effort to offset that cost quickly, then rationally you still benefit from the purchase of the plugin even though LW later integrates the plugin's functionality.

Supporting innovative third-party plugin devs also generally encourages and supports their further LW plugin development (as well as the LW third-party "ecology" overall). For many LW plugin developers, keeping them interested and developing for the LW market is worth a certain amount of lost RoI down the road when/if LW3DG integrates the same functionality into LW.

*: Even for non-pro/hobbyist customers, time/effort (efficiency) savings still represents "value" (RoI).

co-sign!

Surrealist.
11-04-2016, 01:06 PM
Could not agree more, its a failing on their part. Im spending more and more time with Blender i find. Wow that has come on in leaps and bounds since the last time i tried to use it. Just wish BF would leap a little bit further and sort out the UI, its a nightmare for users from other 3D Packages, but i digress :):)

Here I go confusing all of those who like to peg me in one category or another. But in all fairness to LW 3D Group and also in harsh criticism of Blender, an app I have used for a better part of 8 years and in production, and also an app I use daily in my studio. Here goes. Blender has a long long laundry list of issues. Simple small little things. Idiotic things even, that need fixing, addressing. And the general gist I get from that development team is that they only develop things so far. Just up to a point. But never quite full on professional level of features or usability. It is an app full of a bunch of nice but half baked tools. They just don't have the resources. GSOC gives you an enthusiastic student for a short span of time. He/she can only do so much. The mocap re-targeting tools for example. Nice start. Foundation is there. But after the program there it sits. Lacking the proper further development. Cycles even, great render solution. But after many years it still lacks some basic professional and modern tools.

Blender also shot off like a rocket development-wise after they hunkered down and spent a few years rewriting the code.

That is something you should expect from LightWave in the next 3 years.

And I think the potential architecture has a strong modern promise, that even Blender will not be able to touch.

And overall by comparison LightWave even with its old tech still has a more professional tool set aimed at a production pipeline then Blender has, or will have any time soon.


Just my general feelings/opinion about it after so many years.

hrgiger
11-04-2016, 03:23 PM
That is something you should expect from LightWave in the next 3 years.

And I think the potential architecture has a strong modern promise, that even Blender will not be able to touch.

And overall by comparison LightWave even with its old tech still has a more professional tool set aimed at a production pipeline then Blender has, or will have any time soon.


Just my general feelings/opinion about it after so many years.

I tend to agree but for a few reasons. One, because it has to. I don't think LightWave at this point can afford to point to new architecture again (LW 6, LW 9, CORE..) and not be able to point to some tangible benefits delivered by the new architecture. I mean, I don't think you will see a ton more then what we've seen in the blog posts for LW next, but the next version after this will have to show some benefits that deliver new functionality that was seemingly impossible to deliver before (like modeling capability in Layout, a global node network or further performance improvements). Otherwise, LW3DG will lose credibility for pushing all of this focus on new architecture if it doesn't deliver new benefits and I don't think they can afford that.

The other reason is just because I'm hopeful that it is in fact what they have done. Its been my position since well before CORE that LightWave's weakness is not lack of features, but lack of proper architecture. It wouldn't surprise me to see that other then what has been shown in the blog posts, that LightWave otherwise doesn't feel much different. But it definitely needs to start feeling different after this and showing more growth potential.

jwiede
11-04-2016, 03:24 PM
Blender also shot off like a rocket development-wise after they hunkered down and spent a few years rewriting the code.

Which has everything to do with the parts of Blender which received massive improvement (specifically, its GUI/UX infrastructure, and associated command dispatch code, and related bindings), because that code is (quite literally) the deepest foundation under nigh-all other Blender code. In order for LW3DG to achieve similar acceleration of developer output in LW, LW3DG would need to enact similarly fundamental infrastructure changes (as in, replacing the GUI/UX engine, associated command dispatch code, and related bindings).

Are you saying you expect LW3DG to deliver such changes within three years?

prometheus
11-04-2016, 04:02 PM
Which has everything to do with the parts of Blender which received massive improvement (specifically, its GUI/UX infrastructure, and associated command dispatch code, and related bindings), because that code is (quite literally) the deepest foundation under nigh-all other Blender code. In order for LW3DG to achieve similar acceleration of developer output in LW, LW3DG would need to enact similarly fundamental infrastructure changes (as in, replacing the GUI/UX engine, associated command dispatch code, and related bindings).

Are you saying you expect LW3DG to deliver such changes within three years?

I think it is way to early to discuss a comparison between blender and lightwave...letīs see what the new lightwave brings first, we know that despite the new geometry aware engine that will be introduced, we will not get any new modeling tools in layout..at least that isnīt promised, maybe they manage to squeeze something in anyway.
tools like sculpting, skin modifier, drawing of curves and geometry on object surfaces, and much much more in feature set ...looks like it will take a few more iterations before lw catch up, if they decide to implement such tools that is.

As much as I like all those fancy tools in blender, the base UI design is still problematic for me, One could say that the UI customization is almost a five start when it comes to color changes in blender, while in lightwave I would give the UI customization for such thing a almost 0,5..very bad that is.
On the other hand, the philosophy of making lightwave feel like a movie stage and its default main structure/organisation design is almost a 5 star, while it is complete opposite for blender where I maybe would give it a horrible 0,5 in value.

I have said it many times before, the design of lightwave as a movie stage, is probably the best out there, where you got a clean large workspace and the items is fixed and not jumping around in outliners or scrolling in various windows, so moving around lights, cameras, item, bones and rotate etc, is alway at the same place and quite logicly placed in a good place, while using blender and modo, max, houdini..I do not have that sense of good movie stage workflow.

And it doesnīt matter how they seem to handle it with their often cs based windows, in blender you will find yourself scrolling and scrolling..and constantly looking for stuff.

But we are not going to see sculpt tools in lighwave, nor weight paint in there either for some unknown time.

allabulle
11-04-2016, 04:16 PM
Which has everything to do with the parts of Blender which received massive improvement (specifically, its GUI/UX infrastructure, and associated command dispatch code, and related bindings), because that code is (quite literally) the deepest foundation under nigh-all other Blender code. In order for LW3DG to achieve similar acceleration of developer output in LW, LW3DG would need to enact similarly fundamental infrastructure changes (as in, replacing the GUI/UX engine, associated command dispatch code, and related bindings).

Are you saying you expect LW3DG to deliver such changes within three years?

Well, they supposedly have been at it for a number of years already. Who knows, maybe we're not that far. We'll see, we'll see.

erikals
11-04-2016, 04:30 PM
But we are not going to see sculpt tools in lighwave, nor weight paint in there either for some unknown time.
well, we "somewhat" had it in Chrono, and parts of Chrono (Hydra v2) was ported into the LightWave 2017 mesh engine (afaik)

so not impossible it could be added in a few years...

jwiede
11-04-2016, 04:53 PM
well, we "somewhat" had it in Chrono, and parts of Chrono (Hydra v2) was ported into the LightWave 2017 mesh engine (afaik)

so not impossible it could be added in a few years...

We "somewhat" had it in CORE, as well.

On the list of priorities, though, sculpt is hardly critical IMO compared to stuff like ubiq. undo/history and modern customizable GUI/UX, both of which are continually receiving complaints from both existing and potential customers. There's no shortage of third-party options that'll solve users' need for sculpting. Only LW3DG can address the undo or GUI/UX issues, and doing so effectively improves usability across all LW (incl. for third-party plugins).

I actually believe LW should also have sculpting, eventually. I just believe that fixing deep infrastructure issues needs higher priority because such fixes offer app-wide benefits both for users and in dev output. The discussions from 3rdPowers around LWBrush made it quite clear the existing LW GUI/UX infrastructure actively impeded certain aspects of LWBrush development, and there's no reason to think they're unique in that regard.

Customers want (really, demand) modern, highly-interactive UX with new tools (both from LW3DG and third-party devs), and to do so efficiently requires updated, modern GUI/UX infrastructure that supports such features.

prometheus
11-04-2016, 05:24 PM
We "somewhat" had it in CORE, as well.

On the list of priorities, though, sculpt is hardly critical IMO compared to stuff like ubiq. undo/history and modern customizable GUI/UX, both of which are continually receiving complaints from both existing and potential customers. There's no shortage of third-party options that'll solve users' need for sculpting. Only LW3DG can address the undo or GUI/UX issues, and doing so effectively improves usability across all LW (incl. for third-party plugins).

I actually believe LW should also have sculpting, eventually. I just believe that fixing deep infrastructure issues needs higher priority because such fixes offer app-wide benefits both for users and in dev output. The discussions from 3rdPowers around LWBrush made it quite clear the existing LW GUI/UX infrastructure actively impeded certain aspects of LWBrush development, and there's no reason to think they're unique in that regard.

Customers want (really, demand) modern, highly-interactive UX with new tools (both from LW3DG and third-party devs), and to do so efficiently requires updated, modern GUI/UX infrastructure that supports such features.

Sort of agree, itīs just a shame that sculpting hasnīt arrived and weight paint in layout.

jeric_synergy
11-04-2016, 05:27 PM
Gotta disagree on the sculpting: there's a minimum of two other EXTREMELY capable tools for that that. I'd suggest rather that they work on the pipeline between LW and those programs.

jwiede
11-04-2016, 05:42 PM
Sort of agree, itīs just a shame that sculpting hasnīt arrived and weight paint in layout.

Some of that has to do with limitations imposed by the GUI/UX infrastructure, that was why I brought up the 3rdPowers/LWBrush discussion. For tools that require high-interactivity UI (sculpting and painting both qualify), the LW GUI/UX infrastructure presents serious impediments, and "rolling your own" introduces significant efficiency and forward-fragility issues.

Just wait, the topic will come up again in response to users asking why 3rdPowers implemented weight painting the way they did, as with LWBrush previously.

jwiede
11-04-2016, 06:14 PM
Speaking of, has anyone heard back from 3rdPowers? I emailed a question about pricing and availability when the new stuff was announced, have yet to hear anything back. Has anyone else heard back?

Kryslin
11-04-2016, 07:10 PM
The last comment, by 3rd powers (5 days previous), said "Super Soon." I suspect after the weekeend ("For now, don't care, and enjoy your weekend." is what they said in the comments)

prometheus
11-04-2016, 07:10 PM
Gotta disagree on the sculpting: there's a minimum of two other EXTREMELY capable tools for that that. I'd suggest rather that they work on the pipeline between LW and those programs.

It doesnīt have to be as extreme as zbrush, blender is quite capable of introducing workflows that Anyone probably wouldnīt say no to in lightwave, and also weight paint..If other attributes can be connected, a simple crater form with sculp is done in no time and painting in the cavity with a weightmap density for fluids, then turn it in to fire and smoke for instant vulcano, by connecting the vertex map to the fluid emission group, that is done quite fast in blender, in lightwave not Anything of that is Even possible ..unless getting third party as turbulenceFd, lw brush...(which doesnīt work in layout anyway) and the recent weight paint with 3rd powers only display per vertices color ..not on polys.

two other extremly capable tools ..zbrush and mudbox or whatever third party sculpting tool isnīt working in scene context, you can not deform per scene basis, per camera view, or adjusting mud area around roots on a tree etc..that would really be to complex and have too many issues going back and forth with for instance zbrush.

But sure we can all disagre on anything based on our own likings, but for me..No I rather see them implement a brush sculpt than improving pipeline between a secondary app, they might be fairly good for what they do currently, but getting zbrush to ever workin scene context almost inside of layout with the same cam view..that You can look in the stars for.

I would probably like to see the weight paint introduced first though, working in smooth combination with modifier stacks and displacements so a path road simply is easy to draw with a weight map between some areas, while having it mapped to some gradients and thus you get it inverse inflated, with a sculpt tool later, that wouldnīt even be necessary.

vonpietro
11-05-2016, 12:26 AM
i think i missed it - anyone know when 3rd powers is releasing the sticker plugin?

CaptainMarlowe
11-05-2016, 01:16 AM
I don't know, but sticker and weight paint are really interesting.

OFF
11-05-2016, 01:20 AM
Many people have been waiting and waiting for the weight paint in Layout for many many years - and this day have come! ))

bobakabob
11-05-2016, 03:16 AM
Many people have been waiting for waiting for the weight paint in Layout for many many years - and this day have come! ))

Yes, this looks like a major efficiency gain to character animation in Lightwave. No going back and forth between Layout and Modeler for weight painting. Interactive corrective fine tuning... A Maya style approach.

Their other tools are indispensable for modelling and animation. It will be fascinating to see what they've come up with.

prometheus
11-05-2016, 07:49 AM
Yes, this looks like a major efficiency gain to character animation in Lightwave. No going back and forth between Layout and Modeler for weight painting. Interactive corrective fine tuning... A Maya style approach.

Their other tools are indispensable for modelling and animation. It will be fascinating to see what they've come up with.


Native weigth paint please, nice addition though...the weightpaint display is quite poor though, only presenting changed point color values, not full polycoloring so not as nice as in modeler or as you can see in blender while painting, you just get a rough presentation of it.

jasonwestmas
11-05-2016, 08:06 AM
Native weigth paint please, nice addition though...the weightpaint display is quite poor though, only presenting changed point color values, not full polycoloring so not as nice as in modeler or as you can see in blender while painting, you just get a rough presentation of it.

That's why I appreciate it when multiple people/ companies create similar toolsets. We then get to choose which ones are the best for our workflow.

Actually, the way I see it I don't necessarily need a perfect view of the weighting colors if I am able to see the deformation influence in between weighting tweaks. But accurate gradient colors do help. I've done a ton of skinning in max and maya so anything to speed things up accurately and to design.

prometheus
11-05-2016, 08:17 AM
That's why I appreciate it when multiple people/ companies create similar toolsets. We then get to choose which ones are the best for our workflow.

Yeah....itīs of course good that it is available, though Itīs a feature I wouldnīt buy for the sake of it, the other stuff from him I would and you would get this for free so to speak...so itīs not really a question on buying the weight paint tool either perhaps.

I am confident that it will soon arrive natively as well and probably with at least the same display quality as in modeler, I think..not sure, Lino said it was probably not coming with this release anyway.
Another aspect is how well the acess to the weightmaps is implemented, even if we get weight paint in layout..you do not simply emitt particles from them( except using nodes)

In blender any weightmap is autocreated with vertex group menu, so once you paint it in, then go to fire and smoke and select that vertex grop as flow group, it starts to emitt smoke and fire from that(provided the domain and flow object is setup within a fluid context.

Itīs a really fast workflow to get fast results.
Further down the road I could imagine just spraying a weightpaint stroke or areas and use it with a fracture tool, directly in layout, just some early new years wishes.
I wonder how this new update will help out in the workflow for adding instances on painted area, it will fall short if you have ground objects without divisions though, so eventually a full paint set capable of painting textures..not only weightmap would be ideal.

Surrealist.
11-05-2016, 02:58 PM
Are you saying you expect LW3DG to deliver such changes within three years?


Not really. Because LightWave has different issues than Blender had. And LightWave is facing different challenges. I assumed that understanding as a given.

Surrealist.
11-05-2016, 03:21 PM
I tend to agree but for a few reasons. One, because it has to. I don't think LightWave at this point can afford to point to new architecture again (LW 6, LW 9, CORE..) and not be able to point to some tangible benefits delivered by the new architecture. I mean, I don't think you will see a ton more then what we've seen in the blog posts for LW next, but the next version after this will have to show some benefits that deliver new functionality that was seemingly impossible to deliver before (like modeling capability in Layout, a global node network or further performance improvements). Otherwise, LW3DG will lose credibility for pushing all of this focus on new architecture if it doesn't deliver new benefits and I don't think they can afford that.

The other reason is just because I'm hopeful that it is in fact what they have done. Its been my position since well before CORE that LightWave's weakness is not lack of features, but lack of proper architecture. It wouldn't surprise me to see that other then what has been shown in the blog posts, that LightWave otherwise doesn't feel much different. But it definitely needs to start feeling different after this and showing more growth potential.

Yeah I think it is a bitter pill. And seems to be getting more and more bitter by the weeks and months.. lol

Funny thing is people are complaining about the wait. Complaining about no communication and PR and all kinds of things.

But have a look at it this way. How much money is this costing them? I don't mean the intangible ways, like potentially lost people waiting and then leaving. I mean week to week, month to month. This is costing a bundle to continue development this long without a release.

To be a fly on the wall of the finance department and management meetings...lol How many people are taking pay cuts just to make it through this? Think about it.

So I think a realistic assessment is this. I absolutely think it is taking longer than expected. But I think these people are not stupid. They would not be doing this if there would not be a big pay off. And I think it is reasonable to expect that they absolutely depend on there being a pay off. Not just on the next release, which should be huge, but also further down the road with more frequent releases. There is no way they would risk this kind of shut down, differed pay and so on, if that were not a realistic assessment of the situation. Small companies like this, do it for the love of it as much as anything else. When you have a small dedicated team, people will go to bat for management and make sacrifices. And I am almost certain that that is happening right now. A lot is riding in this release. And they have to be real confident in it to continue with this kind of risk.

So I think future faster development is not only a logical outcome but also very much a part of the overall financial plan. It has to be.

To me, that is just basic financial logic. I imagine these guys are really sweating now. Literally and figuratively.

So I think your hopes are realistic.

They will make it through this, and the future will be bright.

Spinland
11-05-2016, 04:37 PM
So I think a realistic assessment is this. I absolutely think it is taking longer than expected. But I think these people are not stupid. They would not be doing this if there would not be a big pay off. And I think it is reasonable to expect that they absolutely depend on there being a pay off. Not just on the next release, which should be huge, but also further down the road with more frequent releases. There is no way they would risk this kind of shut down, differed pay and so on, if that were not a realistic assessment of the situation. Small companies like this, do it for the love of it as much as anything else. When you have a small dedicated team, people will go to bat for management and make sacrifices. And I am almost certain that that is happening right now. A lot is riding in this release. And they have to be real confident in it to continue with this kind of risk.

I get this is speculation, but I would characterize it as informed (by experience in the field) and reasonable speculation. :thumbsup:

jasonwestmas
11-05-2016, 06:06 PM
I don't think Newtek as a whole is worried about lightwave. It's always been a supporting piece of software to them, not their flagship product. I think it's really lucky that they are allowing Lightwave to get its guts re-examined and worked on at all.

Surrealist.
11-06-2016, 12:38 AM
I get this is speculation, but I would characterize it as informed (by experience in the field) and reasonable speculation. :thumbsup:

Thanks. Yeah. Pretty much sums it up. Pure speculation informed by fiscal reality as well as personal experience on both sides of the management desk with small independent teams. Not software mind you but creative business which is driven by similar paradigm.

Surrealist.
11-06-2016, 01:05 AM
I don't think Newtek as a whole is worried about lightwave. It's always been a supporting piece of software to them, not their flagship product. I think it's really lucky that they are allowing Lightwave to get its guts re-examined and worked on at all.

True. But is Newtek even bankrolling it anymore? I got the impression they were both figuratively and literally casting them away on their own vessel to fend for themselves as LW 3D Group. Maybe it was some kind of Amicable compromise. Like, "Fine you want autonomy then you carry your own weight financially. And as long as you can pay the bills you can do as you please."

Kind of makes sense when you think about it. I mean all of these changes have come since then. Core debacle happened under NewTek and I get that if this was not their flagship product - which it wasn't - then damned if they were going to bankroll that and assume all of that risk it was bringing them. Pure speculation.

But I can say this much. If I were heading up a team that was charged with making LightWave viable on its own over the last 3-4 years - like Rob has - I can't see how I would have done things too much different and would have said similar things at various times about releases and money. Would have made perfect sense to follow a certain development strategy. Making small money-making apps like Nevron and CS. Both that seemed to have a quick turn around for generating money. And I would have been starting with as much low hanging fruit as I could. Bullet, flocking, render improvements. A few modeling tools. Using the existing tools to enhance rigging. And now the focus of the next release is again attacking things that can once again make LightWave attractive to not only new users but bring back interest from studios as a front end solution for rendering and mesh handling.

To me this is a clear effort to solve the main issue by replacing LightWave's core while keeping it intact yet at the same time keeping it viable. Whether my speculation is correct or not, they have acted clearly in a way that could easily be interpreted as such.

What are your thoughts on that? Think I am even close? :)

Greenlaw
11-06-2016, 01:32 AM
OMG! Is it just me or does anybody else giggle with excitement when a new 3rd Powers tool demo video is appears? It pains me to imagine the number of hours (days? weeks?) I could have saved on past jobs and projects if I only had Sticker and Weight Paint.

I think I know what I want for Christmas this year. :santa:

jwiede
11-06-2016, 02:53 AM
Not really. Because LightWave has different issues than Blender had. And LightWave is facing different challenges. I assumed that understanding as a given.

Actually, in the sense of desperately needing a major GUI/UX rework, LW seems to be in a situation very similar to what Blender was facing.

jwiede
11-06-2016, 02:56 AM
I get this is speculation, but I would characterize it as informed (by experience in the field) and reasonable speculation. :thumbsup:

Who knows, perhaps their motivation in taking on assistance of Star Trek Discovery (if so) is to fund further development, and continued survival. (shrug)

Releasing won't make the upset customers' grievances go away, though, any more than than it has in the past.

Spinland
11-06-2016, 03:39 AM
OMG! Is it just me or does anybody else giggle with excitement when a new 3rd Powers tool demo video is appears?

Nope, not just you. My version of giggling with glee is more like shaking my head and smiling while uttering wondering phrases this forum would censor, but the intent is the same. ;D

Spinland
11-06-2016, 03:41 AM
Or perhaps their motivation in taking on assistance of Star Trek Discovery (if so) is to fund further development, and continued survival. (shrug)

Also reasonable and possible. As I see it, our take on what's really going in is largely irrelevant so, since all of these threads are just naval-gazing and speculation, my participation in that process may as well mirror a positive outlook on life. Not a Pollyanna attitude, not by any means, because when I can affect change my action can be swift and brutal, but when I'm just in my headspace (such as here) I can choose the tone and I choose positive.

I don't always choose that path, you've seen me when I've lost my cool, but that day is not today. :D

Spinland
11-06-2016, 03:47 AM
Thanks. Yeah. Pretty much sums it up. Pure speculation informed by fiscal reality as well as personal experience on both sides of the management desk with small independent teams. Not software mind you but creative business which is driven by similar paradigm.

Indeed. My characterization was flavored by years of seeing your posts. On my end I do number software engineering among my past hats, and for some rather large agencies—though admittedly more research oriented than production. As you say, the business side of the equation holds fairly constant. Even performance artists need to balance the books somehow, even if that involves relying on handouts.

Spinland
11-06-2016, 03:51 AM
Releasing won't make the upset customers' grievances go away, though, any more than than it has in the past.

Can the past ever be truly undone? Is some form of atonement ever sufficient? I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that added comment in terms of what you want them to do going forward.

Surrealist.
11-06-2016, 04:08 AM
Well I am going to go out on a limb. As a person who is extremely critical and objective about LightWave, as far as I can tell, I am seeing a bright future for LightWave. That is just how I see it playing out. Hands down. They could screw it up mind you. They could. They could fail to deliver. No one here can predict that, one way or another. But what I have seen that they intend to do, it is going to be a new era for LightWave. A I just think it is what it is. I think they are on the right track. And I think most people can see that.

And also... sorry. I just can't follow or buy into this negative stuff. Can't. Won't.

Not on any software. Blender, Autodesk, anything, even LightWave.

Realistic objectively about tools, OK. But painting people, companies in a bad light. Sorry. Won't do it. Not even PMG. They screwed some people for sure. No doubt. Easy target. But I can't buy into the storm-the-gates-with-pitchforks barbaric attitudes. And that is an extreme case. As to the rest of it. Really useless waste of energy.

LW 3D Group has to move forward and they will. And they will do it in thier own way. Some will be happy some will be elated. Some will remain angry or disgruntled. Some won't give a rats nasty ***. The world turns.

Spinland
11-06-2016, 04:19 AM
I'm on board with that, Surrealist. I harbor no perception that the LW3DG folks have malicious intent. Are they struggling mightily against a large task and dropping the ball on many aspects of the business that would make the teeming masses happier with their progress? Quite possibly. My admittedly-limited experiences interacting with them bespeaks, to me, real desire to do a good job, to make LW the best they can make it. I also get they are understaffed and the task of fixing LW's numerous woes is, as I perceive it, a damned daunting one. I've also, more often than I care to recall, been similarly overmatched when my desire to do great things runs headlong into the reality of things like sleep. ;D

I would almost certainly do some things differently were I managing some aspects of their operation. I have different priorities, as does everyone. I don't work for them, and they don't work for me, so my druthers on this process devolves to venting, musing, or ignoring.

I've often declared that despite my experiences with numerous 3D apps out there (I lack only Modo and C4D in hands on, though I am familiar with both secondhand via colleagues) I keep coming back to LW for no better reason than I enjoy using it more than I do the others. That's really the only metric that matters. I have a living to make, but in the end I am an artist (and I've paid five decades of life dues to finally be in a position to declare that) and when I make art I have to be comfortable and relaxed with the tools so they don't intrude on the creative process. That attitude pays off in practical terms because when my art is better more people want to hire me to make some for them. So, yeah, this naval-gazing on my part does have a practical side.

I feel some kinship with the little guy busting hump to make things happen, and who can't be everywhere and do everything so has to triage their time and just deal with the incoming fire from the critics. I get all of that, from both sides of that coin, so I choose to focus on what I can (and do) expect of them, not on what I already know I'm not going to get.

hrgiger
11-06-2016, 10:20 AM
Lightwave has a big potential market out there and the funny thing is, they probably already own a copy of LightWave. There are people still on version 7, 8, 9 and im guessing a lot of 10s who probably moved onto another application during or after CORE. If LW3DG made some fundamental changes to LW architecture that produced new workflows for LW, I have no doubt some of those people would upgrade again.

prometheus
11-06-2016, 10:40 AM
Anyone else thinking 3rd powers could dress up the vid links a bit better? and actually link them to vids per tool or link all his youtube vids with if not all links, at leas a youtube logo?

jasonwestmas
11-06-2016, 10:58 AM
True. But is Newtek even bankrolling it anymore? I got the impression they were both figuratively and literally casting them away on their own vessel to fend for themselves as LW 3D Group. Maybe it was some kind of Amicable compromise. Like, "Fine you want autonomy then you carry your own weight financially. And as long as you can pay the bills you can do as you please."

Kind of makes sense when you think about it. I mean all of these changes have come since then. Core debacle happened under NewTek and I get that if this was not their flagship product - which it wasn't - then damned if they were going to bankroll that and assume all of that risk it was bringing them. Pure speculation.

But I can say this much. If I were heading up a team that was charged with making LightWave viable on its own over the last 3-4 years - like Rob has - I can't see how I would have done things too much different and would have said similar things at various times about releases and money. Would have made perfect sense to follow a certain development strategy. Making small money-making apps like Nevron and CS. Both that seemed to have a quick turn around for generating money. And I would have been starting with as much low hanging fruit as I could. Bullet, flocking, render improvements. A few modeling tools. Using the existing tools to enhance rigging. And now the focus of the next release is again attacking things that can once again make LightWave attractive to not only new users but bring back interest from studios as a front end solution for rendering and mesh handling.

To me this is a clear effort to solve the main issue by replacing LightWave's core while keeping it intact yet at the same time keeping it viable. Whether my speculation is correct or not, they have acted clearly in a way that could easily be interpreted as such.

What are your thoughts on that? Think I am even close? :)

Good logical points. I wasn't thinking at the time I wrote that, that they were more independent than they were. I just thought creating a separate group/division was a way to alienate the Lightwave tension from the Tricaster "TV studio in a Box" market, lol. Also I was thinking that the Lightwave crew as it is now is more focused and consolidated than it was before; Thus allowing someone like Rob Powers to get his crew to answer to him an him alone without upper management meddling (and perhaps denial of the future) in the micro management sense. Because that's exactly the impression that I was getting before LW3DGroup. If you are correct Richard then I think that level of independence will only help a great deal. Speaking from experience, every strong team needs a single strong leader, not a group of leaders, because they will always get in each others' way and create a mess. That's why we don't elect two presidents in any case.

NOW, I get the sense that in the heat of digging deep into lightwave things are not going to plan, which is not surprising considering the complexities of rewriting and replacing ancient components that were hastily slapped together with bandages and poor adhesive; that unfortunately were so deeply embedded in the core of Lightwave. As a result of such deeply rooted problems to solve while maintaining a viable product that can still be sold, the team has now gone dark. Yes, it would appear they have "gone dark". In such a scenario I understand why they aren't speaking. Nobody wants to admit this, but it is in fact a necessary step toward reality if this is the case. I'm actually glad if this is the current situation, just wish it happened 12 years ago and not just 6 years ago. Now that I think of it, a lot of time has passed since 2010 and I think 6-7 years passing is an excellent time to show the first fruits of such a huge endeavor.

Even today I enjoy the clean and direct nature of a lot of tools in lightwave despite a lot of ugliness. . . and so I am eagerly awaiting giving the next release of lightwave a serious test drive. I do hope however they changed their minds about not having a few modeling tools in layout. It really does need that level of component control in there and to be able to key frame such levels.

Surrealist.
11-06-2016, 08:14 PM
Lightwave has a big potential market out there and the funny thing is, they probably already own a copy of LightWave. There are people still on version 7, 8, 9 and im guessing a lot of 10s who probably moved onto another application during or after CORE. If LW3DG made some fundamental changes to LW architecture that produced new workflows for LW, I have no doubt some of those people would upgrade again.

Great point. The only thing I would add to this or modify in any way would be a perhaps more optimistic word such as many or most... would upgrade lol

And my reasoning is based on looking at what is available to studios as well as indies and individual freelancers.

Lets say you moved over to Maya or were always using it in your pipeline and LightWave for rendering. Over time the demands for mesh handling increase. On the Maya side they have to resort to dumping this onto GPU. On the rendering side people were always using something other than Mental Ray. I mean mostly. This means Maya and another 3rd Party solution. And expensive proposition if over time it was found that other rendering solutions started to surpass what LightWave could do.

So you have a situation where you have larger and larger scene files. And you need better and better render solutions. Interchange has been solved with Alembic and FBX where it makes sense. So hard and soft dynamics and other deforming tools are no longer an issue in the host package. Those can all go out via Alembic. Some things can't of course.

But anyway, so LightWave comes back on the scene and solves two issues in one release. Killer mesh handling. Perhaps even going to be the best there is in any app. Probably. We don't know yet. But that is reasonable to expect.

And then a modern render solution with PBR, volumes and even decent rendering of Hair. (treating FFX as geometry).

That right there will make LightWave made sense again. To a lot of people. Self included. Right now for me and my tastes, the best option is Renderman. LightWave could very well trump that.

Surrealist.
11-06-2016, 08:28 PM
NOW, I get the sense that in the heat of digging deep into lightwave things are not going to plan, which is not surprising considering the complexities of rewriting and replacing ancient components that were hastily slapped together with bandages and poor adhesive; that unfortunately were so deeply embedded in the core of Lightwave. As a result of such deeply rooted problems to solve while maintaining a viable product that can still be sold, the team has now gone dark. Yes, it would appear they have "gone dark". In such a scenario I understand why they aren't speaking.

Interesting. I can say this much. If I am working and I am in the middle of a huge deadline. I mean crunch time. In theater, they call it "Hell Week, the last week before opening". Just had one of those weeks here at my studio, with me and many of my guys pulling all-nighters. We went about a week over deadline. It was not a deal breaker thankfully. We had the latitude. Anyway, when I am in that mode, the last thing I do is usually come here to chat. And the very very last thing I would want to do is spend hours reading comments from my client telling me what a looser I am for being over the deadline. And hounding me as to why I was not talking.

Those updates would go like this:

Well we found this and that we had to solve. A few things we overlooked. It is going to take a few extra days.

Next one:

Got a few of those things solved... moving on. Here is my next projected target.

Next one.

Still working.

And if any inquires were made after that there would be nothing more to add other than, "still working", followed by a new projected deadline if there is one. Otherwise, same deadline, still going for it.

Being over deadline over budget is no fun.

Can't imagine looking at the carping criticism that comes from a few quarters around here that any of the LW 3D Group team would want to come anywhere close.

And since they don't owe us an actual deadline, there is really nothing other to say than, still working.

And that is all they have said lately. Still working on it.

Sounds just like me in hell week when there is nothing else to say except promise a deliver date or modify it slightly.

I imagine there is nothing else they care to add at this point. I can see that. And agree with it.

spherical
11-06-2016, 10:37 PM
I just thought creating a separate group/division was a way to alienate the Lightwave tension from the Tricaster "TV studio in a Box" market, lol.

They should then take the next logical step and move all of the many LW forum sections over to forum.lightwave3d.com/ or lightwave3d.com/forum/. Why this hasn't been done by this time is puzzling. It isn't rocket surgery. Instead, these sections get progressively moved farther and farther down the index.

Chris S. (Fez)
11-06-2016, 11:15 PM
LW Group wanted to establish their own brand even though they are technically Newtek. I understand the reasoning but this was a mistake IMO. They should come back to the Newtek fold. Tricaster now commands respect all over the world. Great opportunity for cross-promotion.

rustythe1
11-07-2016, 12:44 AM
some of newtek employees are also listed as LWG employees on things like linked in and FB, linked in also lists both company's as 50 to 200 employees so I don't think they are quite as separate as the name suggests,

alexs3d
11-07-2016, 03:46 AM
yeeehhhhaaa, it is here :) - http://www.3rdpowers.com/index.html

Spinland
11-07-2016, 03:51 AM
Yoink!

Greenlaw
11-07-2016, 09:29 AM
Awesome!

Guess Christmas will have to come early...'2016 Supplement' sale ends November 30.

jeric_synergy
11-07-2016, 10:39 AM
Would love to add to my toolbox, but will wait 'til mid-November, when the bloodlust is cooled.....

Also, this is basically a hobby now for me, and Xparticles is six hundred bucks......

jwiede
11-07-2016, 01:26 PM
Would love to add to my toolbox, but will wait 'til mid-November, when the bloodlust is cooled.....

Also, this is basically a hobby now for me, and Xparticles is six hundred bucks......

Don't get me wrong, the 3rdPowers stuff looks great, but I suspect you'll get a LOT more mileage out of X-Particles given your specific interests. Does X-Particles work with C4DLite? Or do you now have a full C4D license of some level?

jeric_synergy
11-07-2016, 04:11 PM
Don't get me wrong, the 3rdPowers stuff looks great, but I suspect you'll get a LOT more mileage out of X-Particles given your specific interests. Does X-Particles work with C4DLite? Or do you now have a full C4D license of some level?
The latter.

It's tough: while I understand that the C4d UI is objectively better than LW/LWM, my familiarity is so extreme that many C4d conventions haven't "set" yet: not ONCE have I correctly predicted if a tool would be either in the MESH or the TOOLS menus, and the default menu layout is not that great (see guys, I can slag on other software too :tongue: ) --Too many submenus hiding functions (in contrast, the SNAP menu is perfectly flat, hence, useful).

I may wind up regarding LW as I do the Amiga: fondly, but of the past.

jwiede
11-07-2016, 05:22 PM
The latter.

Ah, yeah, then you'll definitely find X-Particles more valuable to your "specialties".

samurai_x
11-07-2016, 08:31 PM
Would love to add to my toolbox, but will wait 'til mid-November, when the bloodlust is cooled.....

Also, this is basically a hobby now for me, and Xparticles is six hundred bucks......

You got a job in cg now? I thought cg and documentation corrector was always a hobby of yours.

jeric_synergy
11-07-2016, 08:37 PM
I'm assuming that's an attempt at joshing.

Spinland
11-08-2016, 04:33 AM
I'll repeat this from my post on the other related thread. Here's the 3rd Powers contact info as per yesterday's registration email:

Feel free to contact us with questions or comments.
Email: [email protected]
Website: http://www.3rdpowers.com

In case anyone had pre-purchase questions and wasn't sure of the best avenue of approach.