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rustythe1
10-14-2016, 03:20 AM
I know there are a million of these threads but, come on, show us something, a blog, a screenshot, a Word?
and a quote loosely linked to the early origins (lets see how many wavers make the connection)
"my patience is infinite, but Since space and time are curved the infinite sooner or later bends back upon itself and ends up where it began"

(I am just having a bit of fun, but maybe I can out some sort of response? I will now start to bang my knife and fork on the table continuously whilst singing "why are we waiting...." until such a response comes)

jwiede
10-14-2016, 03:33 AM
:twak: NO. Bad!

kyuzo
10-14-2016, 03:38 AM
" come on, show us something, ... a Word?"

Ha ha ha... yeah, 'cos a game of 'word association' about LW Next is just what we need right now...

:)

js33
10-14-2016, 03:55 AM
There is a gag order in place which infers there is likely buyout talks going on.

OnlineRender
10-14-2016, 04:12 AM
http://giphy.com/gifs/lightwave3d-26tPsCKenvnFFUGyI

if you can't laugh ....

RebelHill
10-14-2016, 04:27 AM
On behalf of LW3DG...

134777

rustythe1
10-14-2016, 04:35 AM
There is a gag order in place which infers there is likely buyout talks going on.

I don't think so as a month ago I know of some new content that went into the new content folders ;);)

js33
10-14-2016, 04:52 AM
I hope to be proven wrong.

Spinland
10-14-2016, 05:10 AM
On behalf of LW3DG...

134777

*snickersnort*

rustythe1
10-14-2016, 05:16 AM
well maybe the response could just be that they do still exist and not even about LW

Wickedpup
10-14-2016, 05:21 AM
How it feels to be a LW user nowadays.....https://youtu.be/0Q1u2Qb2qr4

bazsa73
10-14-2016, 05:23 AM
Let's debate over CORE. Who thinks Core was a good idea or rather an almost not too bad idea without competence or motivation or both or lack of anything else?

rustythe1
10-14-2016, 05:49 AM
actually, looking back it has only been exactly a month since Robs last quote,
"Do not be discouraged in this moment. There will be information coming as soon as possible but right now I will say that things are looking very exciting for LightWave and you have a team here working very hard to ensure the best for the LightWave community and we are excited about sharing many more details when the time is right.. "
if you compare that, to say being shown a new version of zbrush at "summit" then to when you finally find out when it will be released, its not so different to any other side of the fence.

erikals
10-14-2016, 06:38 AM
if you compute how often the LWG responds on the forums in times of silence, you should come to an average of, i don't know, maybe 2 months.

so, in some sort or form, you will get a reply 1 month from now.


( some might read this above as sarcasm or a joke, but i'm completely serious. do your math, and you should arrive at the somewhat same conclusion )

once you understand that this specific communication method is a reality, you will stop thinking about the next update.

erikals
10-14-2016, 06:51 AM
a sudden stop of blog posts with no further explanation, is, of course, not that great.


Upcoming Performance Optimizations
24 March 2016 19:22

3D and 2D, hand-in-hand
22 January 2016 00:50

Render Buffers
22 January 2016 00:48

The Modifier Stack
18 December 2015 01:42

Unified Mesh System (Part II)
01 December 2015 17:55

Iterative Design and Modeling Workflow Improvements
21 November 2015 19:39

FiberFX!
02 November 2015 18:59

Render Sneak Peek
21 October 2015 19:10

Editing Volumetrics
21 October 2015 19:05

Let’s talk about volumetrics!
12 October 2015 20:59


let's see if we get an explanation.

---------------

Blog post = Great marketing
Pulling the Blog post plug mid-term with no further explanation = not so Great marketing

---------------

aaaanyway, let's move on... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

bazsa73
10-14-2016, 07:13 AM
Lw2017 will be out this Christmas about on the 20th maybe.

djwaterman
10-14-2016, 07:32 AM
There is a gag order in place which infers there is likely buyout talks going on.

When did this happen, I wasn't aware of a gag order being in place.

Wade
10-14-2016, 07:57 AM
How it feels to be a LW user nowadays.....https://youtu.be/0Q1u2Qb2qr4


Had to watch a cool Boeing fighter refueling add before the clip - which was kind of cool and somewhat like a LW user waiting for a refuel.

hrgiger
10-14-2016, 08:17 AM
When did this happen, I wasn't aware of a gag order being in place.

Well either a gag order is in place or they're trapped under something heavy and can't get to a keyboard.

MichaelT
10-14-2016, 08:41 AM
There is a gag order in place which infers there is likely buyout talks going on.

Saying it like that means you know something (doesn't matter if you made it up) and that is shaky grounds. Please tread carefully. I personally think they don't say anything at all in the forums, because of the vitriol. They are communicating elsewhere, just not about Lightwave (next).

ianr
10-14-2016, 09:14 AM
Saying it like that means you know something (doesn't matter if you made it up) and that is shaky grounds. Please tread carefully. I personally think they don't say anything at all in the forums, because of the vitriol. They are communicating elsewhere, just not about Lightwave (next).



I entirely agree, they all gone down that very infectious Social Disease V .F. or VITRIOL FATIGUE !!!


(You see BRAD would bash past all that Stuff,
he was a good hole- in- the- dam repairer, as much
as I didn't enjoy his company, you gotta give him credit).

rcallicotte
10-14-2016, 11:37 AM
Thanks Rusty. I had not heard about or read this. This is good.



actually, looking back it has only been exactly a month since Robs last quote,
"Do not be discouraged in this moment. There will be information coming as soon as possible but right now I will say that things are looking very exciting for LightWave and you have a team here working very hard to ensure the best for the LightWave community and we are excited about sharing many more details when the time is right.. "
if you compare that, to say being shown a new version of zbrush at "summit" then to when you finally find out when it will be released, its not so different to any other side of the fence.

Nicolas Jordan
10-14-2016, 11:42 AM
It actually wouldn't surprise me if there were buyout talks going on. The fact that the Lightwave 3D Group is physically separate from Newtek and probably financially separate would indicate that those moves could have been in preparation for the possibility of selling Lightwave off. I'm not really sure who would want it though and even if they are in talks they might not sell unless the price is right.

Dan Ritchie
10-14-2016, 12:08 PM
It's like this every version. This is the last one. I say that myself. This is the last version I'm ever doing, then I spend the next decade making new versions.

djwaterman
10-14-2016, 12:56 PM
Oh, so there is no gag order, just more made up stuff to get reactions.

pinkmouse
10-14-2016, 01:00 PM
The gag order might prevent them talking about the gag order? :D

cagey5
10-14-2016, 01:01 PM
There is a gag order in place which infers there is likely buyout talks going on.

Pedants Corner... You meant 'Implies'

Spaceland
10-14-2016, 01:07 PM
You should not complain or made stuff, Maxon can stay dark with there new version almost a year and start showing some new stuff when the new software is starting to be advertised with the new tools or upgrades.

js33
10-14-2016, 01:20 PM
Pedants Corner... You meant 'Implies'

No I meant "infers". It is an educated guess that if there is a gag order then they are likely in buyout talks. This is my opinion of course but why would a supposedly ongoing company go completely silent.

cagey5
10-14-2016, 01:29 PM
No I meant "infers". It is an educated guess that if there is a gag order then they are likely in buyout talks. This is my opinion of course but why would a supposedly ongoing company go completely silent.

I respectfully disagree. Infers has no meaning in that sentence. I stand by my original statement.. :)

rustythe1
10-14-2016, 01:31 PM
but as pointed out, its only been a month, rob was in hospital just before that so he could be off ill still, other important people for the final steps could be ill, anything, people who work for LWG3D and newtek have been posting on the forums, just not in the ones asking for more info, so they are not silent, just not answering the questions you want answers to, or posting in threads you read, for example rcallicotte above thanked for pointing out the quote rob made a month ago in an obscure thread about cows and octopuses, so he had not read that until now,

hrgiger
10-14-2016, 02:20 PM
A gag order, even if there was one, doesn't infer a buyout anymore than it infers that they have prioritized the finding of pokemon to communitcating.

kadri
10-14-2016, 02:57 PM
Monologue.

calilifestyle
10-14-2016, 03:06 PM
I would really like to know what's going on as well. This is one of the problems when adding years to the version of a given product.

Dan Ritchie
10-14-2016, 03:45 PM
A speaker implies, a hearer infers.

cagey5
10-14-2016, 03:54 PM
Yay

vonpietro
10-14-2016, 07:03 PM
300 quatloos says it comes out in december

DrStrik9
10-14-2016, 09:16 PM
Implies, infers, ... let's make up lots more wild stuff ... gloriously salacious stuff that will make everyone salivate and imagine the worst things possible.

I prefer to get control of myself instead. This is normal. I am choosing to tone down the wild conjecture and wait like an adult.

samurai_x
10-14-2016, 09:46 PM
They are communicating elsewhere, just not about Lightwave (next).

That already implies there's a gag order.

Lightwave next 2017-2018 release is my bet.

jwiede
10-14-2016, 09:47 PM
300 quatloos says it comes out in december

nvm, guesstimate removed, pointless.

Kind of hoped they'd at least (re-)learned the value of open beta testing, alas.

wingzeta
10-14-2016, 10:22 PM
While searching for some unrelated info on the forums, this came up as one of the results. Time warp time.

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?19863-NEWTEK-needs-to-communicate!!&highlight=bones+relax

sami
10-14-2016, 11:57 PM
I mean no ill will by this post - but want to understand the business model of one of my favorite software tools and also ask just a realistic question which no one seems to have mentioned yet.

A dev group of only 1 squad costs $x and has a high burn rate with little to no new license income (a reasonable guess given that current sales are probably not fantastic given the current reputation/buzz/industry talk about LW). How long would such a company survive???



Assuming everyone most are fulltime (probably not here - and probably not co-located in one office either):

Back of the napkin calculations based on reasonable estimated from here http://www.leadingagile.com/2012/11/calculate-budgets-agile-team/

assuming 12 people with 4 half-time people = ~10 fulltime equivalent employees

using a blended rate of $125/hr, 8 hr days, and 20 working days a month, 240 days per year. (Btw, don't balk at these rates - developers (especially 3d ones aren't cheap).

so would have $10,000 fixed burn rate (i.e. cost) per day

It's been 687 days or so since last release. 240 working days per 365 days in a year = ~65.8% of a year is working days

687 days x 65.8% = ~452 working days since last LW release.

452 days x $10,000/day = $4,520,000 cost to employee team since last release. Anything less is not serious development on active software.

How many licenses of LW need to be sold to make the company profitable since then?

$4,520,000 / $695 (current price) = 6503 copies of LW - is this realistic? You tell me. And these estimates don't include other overhead or staff. So what do the numbers say of LW's future? Let your accountant minds ponder that - not your fan minds...

I could be WAY off - but something doesn't seem doable business-wise with how often we get a new version and how popular LW seems (regardless of how cool it is/was). This has something to do with the silence. I find it hard to believe it's being worked on fulltime by a decent sized team...

js33
10-15-2016, 12:20 AM
Maybe some or all of the team spend most of their time working on Tricaster software which would be beneficial to Newtek but not so much for Lightwave.

Prince Charming
10-15-2016, 12:45 AM
I mean no ill will by this post - but want to understand the business model of one of my favorite software tools and also ask just a realistic question which no one seems to have mentioned yet.

A dev group of only 1 squad costs $x and has a high burn rate with little to no new license income (a reasonable guess given that current sales are probably not fantastic given the current reputation/buzz/industry talk about LW). How long would such a company survive???



Assuming everyone most are fulltime (probably not here - and probably not co-located in one office either):

Back of the napkin calculations based on reasonable estimated from here http://www.leadingagile.com/2012/11/calculate-budgets-agile-team/

assuming 12 people with 4 half-time people = ~10 fulltime equivalent employees

using a blended rate of $125/hr, 8 hr days, and 20 working days a month, 240 days per year. (Btw, don't balk at these rates - developers (especially 3d ones aren't cheap).

so would have $10,000 fixed burn rate (i.e. cost) per day

It's been 687 days or so since last release. 240 working days per 365 days in a year = ~65.8% of a year is working days

687 days x 65.8% = ~452 working days since last LW release.

452 days x $10,000/day = $4,520,000 cost to employee team since last release. Anything less is not serious development on active software.

How many licenses of LW need to be sold to make the company profitable since then?

$4,520,000 / $695 (current price) = 6503 copies of LW - is this realistic? You tell me. And these estimates don't include other overhead or staff. So what do the numbers say of LW's future? Let your accountant minds ponder that - not your fan minds...

I could be WAY off - but something doesn't seem doable business-wise with how often we get a new version and how popular LW seems (regardless of how cool it is/was). This has something to do with the silence. I find it hard to believe it's being worked on fulltime by a decent sized team...

Yep... my thoughts exactly.

sami
10-15-2016, 01:11 AM
Maybe some or all of the team spend most of their time working on Tricaster software which would be beneficial to Newtek but not so much for Lightwave.

possibly. But wasn't the whole spin off LWDG into a separate division meant to draw financial lines between the LW software and the rest of Newtek? So your posit seems counter to that...

js33
10-15-2016, 01:18 AM
Yeah you would think so but who knows. They are locked up tighter than the Coca-Cola formula.

50one
10-15-2016, 01:57 AM
I do get they're really busy but how about that presentation from Lightwave event from UK that next was shown? It's already recorded so why not just upload small chunk of it? Or is it again too time-consuming?

I think this whole thing reached a ridiculous level unseen anywhere in the past when it comes to software development.
People begging for any update for the past 6months?, anything and no one is giving monkey's *** about it.
This is both incredible and scary at the same time.

hrgiger
10-15-2016, 02:07 AM
I could be WAY off - but something doesn't seem doable business-wise with how often we get a new version and how popular LW seems (regardless of how cool it is/was). This has something to do with the silence. I find it hard to believe it's being worked on fulltime by a decent sized team...

Might as well speculate on something we have more knowledge of. Like on how it is to spend a week on Mars.

m.d.
10-15-2016, 02:24 AM
I do get they're really busy but how about that presentation from Lightwave event from UK that next was shown? It's already recorded so why not just upload small chunk of it? Or is it again too time-consuming?



+10

rustythe1
10-15-2016, 03:15 AM
I do get they're really busy but how about that presentation from Lightwave event from UK that next was shown? It's already recorded so why not just upload small chunk of it? Or is it again too time-consuming?

I think this whole thing reached a ridiculous level unseen anywhere in the past when it comes to software development.
People begging for any update for the past 6months?, anything and no one is giving monkey's *** about it.
This is both incredible and scary at the same time.

they have, it has its own blogs and web pages out on the net, mostly on FB etc, another point of what I mean by LWG3D being active, just not where you want, so all is fine, we are just not patient

kadri
10-15-2016, 03:27 AM
... so all is fine, we are just not patient

Not sure about "all is fine". But we are not being patient? LOL! That is not what you could say about the rest who is still around here.

jwiede
10-15-2016, 04:59 AM
they have, it has its own blogs and web pages out on the net, mostly on FB etc, another point of what I mean by LWG3D being active, just not where you want, so all is fine, we are just not patient

If you look at the Lightwave FB presence, there really isn't much being "said" by LW3DG there either (just reposting others' announcements isn't them "saying" anything), so where is it you believe they're actively communicating?

pinkmouse
10-15-2016, 07:24 AM
The stuff shown in Chesterfield was about new materials and a little on the new renderer. Good stuff, but not nearly enough to make a buying decision on. A few hints on interesting progress were dropped in the pub afterwards, but again, nothing definitive. We really don't know that much more than you do, and the only reason I can think for LW3DG not posting Andrew's presentation is that that workflow has changed since then. ;)

rustythe1
10-15-2016, 08:12 AM
If you look at the Lightwave FB presence, there really isn't much being "said" by LW3DG there either (just reposting others' announcements isn't them "saying" anything), so where is it you believe they're actively communicating?

no I was looking at links posted on the pages of the speakers, although I don't think lino posted any and he was there that is maybe a little odd?

- - - Updated - - -


The stuff shown in Chesterfield was about new materials and a little on the new renderer. Good stuff, but not nearly enough to make a buying decision on. A few hints on interesting progress were dropped in the pub afterwards, but again, nothing definitive. We really don't know that much more than you do, and the only reason I can think for LW3DG not posting Andrew's presentation is that that workflow has changed since then. ;)

his talk was posted as I watched it a week or so ago

pinkmouse
10-15-2016, 08:18 AM
Ooh, I missed that. :D

rustythe1
10-15-2016, 08:32 AM
see, that goes back to my point again, there are little snippets all over the web, just not in the places we usually look, I stumbled on an interesting interview of Mr Powers from a little while ago that detailed a 3 year road map to where we are now, and there were a lot of points an comments about how core was the wrong way to go and interestingly is how they are behaving now, so he did actually say this is how they would be if there is nothing to show (reading between the lines)

50one
10-15-2016, 08:34 AM
Ooh, I missed that. :D

I sill don't see this? Any link? YT latest activity is 2 days ago but nothing about that particular talk.

rustythe1
10-15-2016, 09:26 AM
cant remember where I saw the links but they were not to youtube I just stumbled on them when looking through other stuff

rustythe1
10-15-2016, 09:32 AM
starting to wonder if someone actually linked last years event to this years so it may be a mistake, but as we have not had a new version for 2 years probably hard to tell the difference LOL

hrgiger
10-15-2016, 09:32 AM
I don't think Andrews talk was posted anywhere. You might be thinking of his talk from last year.

jwiede
10-15-2016, 05:34 PM
see, that goes back to my point again, there are little snippets all over the web, just not in the places we usually look, I stumbled on an interesting interview of Mr Powers from a little while ago that detailed a 3 year road map to where we are now, and there were a lot of points an comments about how core was the wrong way to go and interestingly is how they are behaving now, so he did actually say this is how they would be if there is nothing to show (reading between the lines)

That's the point, though: LW3DG needs to be responsible for aggregating and ensuring such info is kept in a single, expected location generally accessible to customers, not scattered randomly all over the web. Their failure to do so is a communication (and marketing) problem they need to address. Customers shouldn't have to play hide-and-seek to obtain LW3DG-released information.

Also, it's fine if they put pointers to the info on their social media feeds, but they still need to host it at their own location. Forcing customers to join/access a social media service to access that info is problematic -- Business customers may not even be allowed to access such social media sites from the workplace, by itself adequate reason not to host info for customers at social media sites.

tyrot
10-15-2016, 05:55 PM
That's the point, though: LW3DG needs to be responsible for aggregating and ensuring such info is kept in a single, expected location generally accessible to customers, not scattered randomly all over the web. Their failure to do so is a communication (and marketing) problem they need to address. Customers shouldn't have to play hide-and-seek to obtain LW3DG-released information.

Also, it's fine if they put pointers to the info on their social media feeds, but they still need to host it at their own location. Forcing customers to join/access a social media service to access that info is problematic -- Business customers may not even be allowed to access such social media sites from the workplace, by itself adequate reason not to host info for customers at social media sites.

totally 100 percent agree.. I cannot believe ... they either messed up everything .. or majority of things .. i have no other explanation..

jeric_synergy
10-15-2016, 06:51 PM
Pedants Corner... You meant 'Implies'

:ohmy: High five!

jeric_synergy
10-15-2016, 06:54 PM
Maybe some or all of the team spend most of their time working on Tricaster software which would be beneficial to Newtek but not so much for Lightwave.
That seems unlikely: totally different skillsets, except for the UI. Also, why have a different division.

Right now I suspect Tricaster (et al) is pretty much the only life support system for the LWG.

Nobody in my industry groups have any awareness of LW except as something that USED to exist. This cannot be good.

js33
10-15-2016, 07:38 PM
High five!

I bet you won't be High fiven if it turns out I was right.:ohmy:




Nobody in my industry groups have any awareness of LW except as something that USED to exist. This cannot be good.

See, even you have some awareness of what is going on.:D

jeric_synergy
10-15-2016, 10:00 PM
I bet you won't be High fiven if it turns out I was right.:ohmy:
Well, no, but then there wouldn't be any point.

js33
10-15-2016, 10:22 PM
Well let's hope the LW3DG shows some signs of life soon.

jay3d
10-15-2016, 10:31 PM
IMO, I think the only way now for LW to survive as a serious software is to make it open source under somehow a protective OSS license such as GPL.
Look at Blender's example, I think it's too late for a catch up run for a small sized closed team, open source development proved to be more efficient as time told.
And I'm 100% sure it will be in favor of LW and the community, LW still have great things, but those can be further extended at a very fast pace when many devs all around the globe,
contribute to its development. Just look of what Blender has become since early 2000's roughly the same time of the major LW devs split.

vncnt
10-16-2016, 12:18 AM
Nobody in my industry groups have any awareness of LW except as something that USED to exist. This cannot be good.
If we care so much about the future of Lightwave, then why donīt we all try to improve LW awareness among a larger group of potential customers?

I would like to see more content driven discussions.
And a website that is able to facilitate this.

This forum shows way too much text.
Imagine that YouTube or Vimeo was a very text centric website!

The result is that weīre talking a lot about technical stuff - but that will not attract any new artist to buy this tool.

No money = no upgrades.

jeric_synergy
10-16-2016, 12:31 AM
I disagree: the text is pretty much WHY I value this forum over, say, FB. Here we get actual technical discussions, versus the very short FB responses.

I really don't think it's that much hard to upload images here than anywhere else. It is slanted towards clickable thumbnails, I'll give you that, but the big images are one click away.

YouTube links are also NBD.

Really, users have cited this forum as a big part in their enjoyment of LW, such as it is.

vncnt
10-16-2016, 01:48 AM
Discussions about technical details ARE very interesting. Itīs great for solving problems etc. We need that too.

But the inspiration and attention - speaking for myself - will (many times) come from images.

And with "more images" I don't mean to introduce a platform with FB style reactions. I donīt think we should want that level of shallowness in this forum.

Even better: no reactions at all. Just a "how I did it" description about some technical choices related to Lightwave.

A simple banner with a few images would be effective without becoming annoying. Click on the image you like to read more about it. A predictable method.

There should be new content every day - not four times a year.
Create an artistic reason to come back to this forum.

If we want to sell Lightwave to the world: show them what you can do with it.
Not how difficult the technical details sometimes are or discuss the negative business aspects to death.

Wickedpup
10-16-2016, 02:45 AM
If we want to sell Lightwave to the world: show them what you can do with it.
Not how difficult the technical details sometimes are or discuss the negative business aspects to death.
Bought one or two softwares years ago, just because I saw what people could do with it, and regretted it. Have since then learned to take my time and do proper research into not only features and capabilities of any software I consider to buy, but also the company and how they run things. And in that regard, considering Next is a major change and I donīt know jack **** about where it is heading, and seeing how LWG runs things Iīd be hard pressed to find a way to "sell it to the world". Just one of the problems of running silent and deep.....

darkChief
10-16-2016, 05:53 PM
IMO, I think the only way now for LW to survive as a serious software is to make it open source under somehow a protective OSS license such as GPL.
Look at Blender's example, I think it's too late for a catch up run for a small sized closed team, open source development proved to be more efficient as time told.
And I'm 100% sure it will be in favor of LW and the community, LW still have great things, but those can be further extended at a very fast pace when many devs all around the globe,
contribute to its development. Just look of what Blender has become since early 2000's roughly the same time of the major LW devs split.

I don't think blender is successful because of opensource. I think it's successful because of Ton Roosendaal. I remember when it was still under Nan. There were other programs like it (Anim8or. Wingz, etc). Non have reached that success. Also if you have a look at opensource projects (on github for example ) that have been opensourced by big companies, you will notice that most commits come from similar companies, or from the same person. Many successful opensource projects are also funded by companies that rely on them. Blender didn't become successful overnight, it took time and initiatives. Like the open movies, Google summer code projects etc. All of which ton roosendaal or the blender foundation made happen. Lighwave has always had a mysterious compelling image, from its logo, unique renderer, associations with certain TV shows and studios that puts it in its niche. The first time I saw Lightwave was in an old magazine in school. Its got a way of sticking on you, I didn't actually use it until six years later, but it was always in the back of my mind. Opensourcing would kill some of that magic. And there's no guarantee anything good will come from it. This is only my personal opinion though.

erikals
10-16-2016, 06:14 PM
there's no guarantee anything good will come from it.

i'll quote that.

LightWave Open Source is a cool idea, but beyond that it is quite tricky to see where it would go.

jeric_synergy
10-16-2016, 06:26 PM
Hah! We can't even get LWG to open-source their DOCUMENTATION!!!! Fat-chance they'd open-source the application itself.

MichaelT
10-16-2016, 06:50 PM
Open source is probably not even possible. I'd expect there to be a lot of licensed tools in LW. Source code for licensees, is another thing though. That is probably possible. But I would only use that as a safety, should any bad things happen to my company (generically speaking) Sorry.. a bit of a history buff. I like things to be around for posterity.

In any case.. why so gloomy?

erikals
10-16-2016, 06:59 PM
much code was written by Allen Hastings (Layout) and Stuart Ferguson (Modeler) so i think Open Source is out of reach.

tyrot
10-16-2016, 07:08 PM
they are not giving you an open communication ... and you are after open source :)

erikals
10-16-2016, 07:24 PM
hey, things might change...   .. ....   .... ..   .... ..   .. ....   ......   ......   ... or... ?

samurai_x
10-16-2016, 08:57 PM
I mean no ill will by this post - but want to understand the business model of one of my favorite software tools and also ask just a realistic question which no one seems to have mentioned yet.

A dev group of only 1 squad costs $x and has a high burn rate with little to no new license income (a reasonable guess given that current sales are probably not fantastic given the current reputation/buzz/industry talk about LW). How long would such a company survive???



Assuming everyone most are fulltime (probably not here - and probably not co-located in one office either):

Back of the napkin calculations based on reasonable estimated from here http://www.leadingagile.com/2012/11/calculate-budgets-agile-team/

assuming 12 people with 4 half-time people = ~10 fulltime equivalent employees

using a blended rate of $125/hr, 8 hr days, and 20 working days a month, 240 days per year. (Btw, don't balk at these rates - developers (especially 3d ones aren't cheap).

so would have $10,000 fixed burn rate (i.e. cost) per day

It's been 687 days or so since last release. 240 working days per 365 days in a year = ~65.8% of a year is working days

687 days x 65.8% = ~452 working days since last LW release.

452 days x $10,000/day = $4,520,000 cost to employee team since last release. Anything less is not serious development on active software.

How many licenses of LW need to be sold to make the company profitable since then?

$4,520,000 / $695 (current price) = 6503 copies of LW - is this realistic? You tell me. And these estimates don't include other overhead or staff. So what do the numbers say of LW's future? Let your accountant minds ponder that - not your fan minds...

I could be WAY off - but something doesn't seem doable business-wise with how often we get a new version and how popular LW seems (regardless of how cool it is/was). This has something to do with the silence. I find it hard to believe it's being worked on fulltime by a decent sized team...

There's probably less full time devs working on lightwave. Maybe only 4 of them are full time.
But no doubt they are absorbing the cost of not selling enough licenses for the past 687 days.

They probably should roll out lw 2015.6 this year with some cool enhancements to let people know that lightwave is still alive. Lol!

vncnt
10-16-2016, 10:44 PM
Bought one or two softwares years ago, just because I saw what people could do with it, and regretted it. Have since then learned to take my time and do proper research into not only features and capabilities of any software I consider to buy, but also the company and how they run things. And in that regard, considering Next is a major change and I donīt know jack **** about where it is heading, and seeing how LWG runs things Iīd be hard pressed to find a way to "sell it to the world". Just one of the problems of running silent and deep.....
I think you just confirmed my opinion: seeing is buying.

Unfortunately it did not work out for you.

However, Iīm unable to see the connection between "how LWG runs things" and you finding it hard to "sell it to the world".
If the software is doing its job right, then you should be able to use it and create interesting images.

Can you give us a hint about missing features or problems with the software that made it too difficult for your projects?
Did you have some experience with 3D modelling/animation or are you completely new?

sami
10-16-2016, 10:45 PM
There's probably less full time devs working on lightwave. Maybe only 4 of them are full time.
But no doubt they are absorbing the cost of not selling enough licenses for the past 687 days.

They probably should roll out lw 2015.6 this year with some cool enhancements to let people know that lightwave is still alive. Lol!

Even halving that is a big number of licenses to sell to keep afloat. Noone here seems to think about the bottom line of the business - we've got enthusiasts here unwilling or unable to spend $50 on plugins and then they speculate/fantasize LW will be bought by some VC angel company who would fund it. It's sadly starting to look like abandonware....

samurai_x
10-16-2016, 11:17 PM
Even halving that is a big number of licenses to sell to keep afloat. Noone here seems to think about the bottom line of the business - we've got enthusiasts here unwilling or unable to spend $50 on plugins and then they speculate/fantasize LW will be bought by some VC angel company who would fund it. It's sadly starting to look like abandonware....

Someone did say lw users are cheapskates on another thread. :D

Anyway, its all on LWG.
They're not going to sell licenses if they don't communicate with the userbase.

I don't know how the devs are not getting that through their thick heads.

Whoever is preventing them from communicating about lightwave next is incompetent.

No communication, no business.

They could just say here that they expect a release date as early as Q2 2017, no guarantee. Then people would stop speculating, hating on LWG. But atleast they manage expectations.

js33
10-16-2016, 11:28 PM
Maybe Tim Jenison just keeps LWG around for the tax write-off.

FEB 28, 2014
"The big problem with Tim’s Vermeer, Vegas show duo Penn and Teller’s new art documentary, is that neither the filmmakers nor its subject seem to know a lick about art. The new film tells the story of Tim Jenison, a billionaire inventor who made his fortune developing video software and who becomes obsessed with figuring out how the Dutch master Johannes Vermeer painted such intricate and life-like images."

http://www.dmagazine.com/arts-entertainment/2014/02/why-tims-vermeer-fails-to-illuminate-the-work-of-the-dutch-master/

Prince Charming
10-16-2016, 11:44 PM
Maybe Tim Jenison just keeps LWG around for the tax write-off.

FEB 28, 2014
"The big problem with Tim’s Vermeer, Vegas show duo Penn and Teller’s new art documentary, is that neither the filmmakers nor its subject seem to know a lick about art. The new film tells the story of Tim Jenison, a billionaire inventor who made his fortune developing video software and who becomes obsessed with figuring out how the Dutch master Johannes Vermeer painted such intricate and life-like images."

http://www.dmagazine.com/arts-entertainment/2014/02/why-tims-vermeer-fails-to-illuminate-the-work-of-the-dutch-master/

LOL, Yep... and he still needs to be a snake oil salesmen. What does that tell you? What is being done to lightwave customers as this point is hugely disrespectful... And I lay the blame right on your billionaire.
The whole trying to get people to upgrade based on the promise of a blog and "soon release" its total bottom feeding tactics... and again... there is a "billionaire" running the show. LMFAO!

https://www.lightwave3d.com/about_lightwave_group/

jeric_synergy
10-17-2016, 12:16 AM
Is Tim J. really a billionaire? I can see a multi-millionaire, but a billion is a lot.

This didn't tell me anything: http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/people.asp?privcapId=824029

Prince Charming
10-17-2016, 12:52 AM
No he is not, but he certainly doesn't seem to mind being advertised as such.

js33
10-17-2016, 01:09 AM
How do you know he's not? I've seen the same thing on a lot of sites talking about the movie. He could easily have made investments aside from running Newtek that made him a lot of money. Maybe he invested in Apple before the iPhone hit.

Exclaim
10-17-2016, 01:21 AM
IMO, I think the only way now for LW to survive as a serious software is to make it open source under somehow a protective OSS license such as GPL.
Look at Blender's example, I think it's too late for a catch up run for a small sized closed team, open source development proved to be more efficient as time told.
And I'm 100% sure it will be in favor of LW and the community, LW still have great things, but those can be further extended at a very fast pace when many devs all around the globe,
contribute to its development. Just look of what Blender has become since early 2000's roughly the same time of the major LW devs split.
Yep and for all that progress Maya is still the industry standard. Blender hasn't done much but give hobbyist a reason to not spend money.

Prince Charming
10-17-2016, 01:43 AM
How do you know he's not? I've seen the same thing on a lot of sites talking about the movie. He could easily have made investments aside from running Newtek that made him a lot of money. Maybe he invested in Apple before the iPhone hit.

He could be, either way it doesnt really matter. He has got too much money to be hocking vaporware to people with much less money than himself, and yet he still did.

If you are really interested you can look here... I dont care enough to search a list that long.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/chasewithorn/2016/03/01/the-full-list-of-every-american-billionaire-2016/#92867d658802

js33
10-17-2016, 01:53 AM
It's none of our business really but I agree if he is a billionaire then that makes the delay and vaporware that much more of a slap in the face to current and future LW users.

Skonk
10-17-2016, 04:32 AM
If there was anything to show or tell us then they would have. How many blog posts did they do in the end after all the talk? They weren't even able to write a paragraph or two every few weeks to keep us informed; that's how little there is behind the scenes.

Seems pretty clear that there is nothing of value to put out there and us all hanging about waiting for it is a total waste of our time.

Time to move on and forget this place imo.

Jaqen
10-17-2016, 04:51 AM
++1

JohnMarchant
10-17-2016, 04:57 AM
Someone did say lw users are cheapskates on another thread. :D

So what are Blender users then :):)

- - - Updated - - -

[QUOTE=Prince Charming;1486649]No he is not, but he certainly doesn't seem to mind being advertised as such.

Most would not, money breeds money or at least the illusion of it.

lardbros
10-17-2016, 05:12 AM
Maybe Tim Jenison just keeps LWG around for the tax write-off.

FEB 28, 2014
"The big problem with Tim’s Vermeer, Vegas show duo Penn and Teller’s new art documentary, is that neither the filmmakers nor its subject seem to know a lick about art. The new film tells the story of Tim Jenison, a billionaire inventor who made his fortune developing video software and who becomes obsessed with figuring out how the Dutch master Johannes Vermeer painted such intricate and life-like images."

http://www.dmagazine.com/arts-entertainment/2014/02/why-tims-vermeer-fails-to-illuminate-the-work-of-the-dutch-master/

What a terrible quote about the film.

You don't need to be an art critic to be able to deconstruct how an artist made a painting. He's an engineer/innovator. I have watched the documentary numerous times and every time I watch it just shows me that art critics have no idea and their opinion is equal to, if not worth less, the average person's opinion. They have a living to protect, so of course they'll poo-poo ideas that don't support their own.

Anyway... if you watch Tim's Vermeer, it's quite clear Tim has made a lot of money... in order to charter your own jet around, you can't just have millions... so I'd say potentially a billionaire. Why not, he's made some cool hardware and software! Just a shame the marketing department can't sort out maintaining a simple blog.

Wickedpup
10-17-2016, 05:31 AM
I think you just confirmed my opinion: seeing is buying.

Unfortunately it did not work out for you.

However, Iīm unable to see the connection between "how LWG runs things" and you finding it hard to "sell it to the world".
If the software is doing its job right, then you should be able to use it and create interesting images.

Can you give us a hint about missing features or problems with the software that made it too difficult for your projects?
Did you have some experience with 3D modelling/animation or are you completely new?
One thing that would be hard to sell is their way of treating customers. Not an experience I would recommend to people......

Funny thing, one of those purchases was EIAS. Back when I bought it the thing that was a showstopper for me was the limited geometry import and an antiquated workflow/GUI. (Some of my problems were of course fixed in v9, but by then I was long gone.) EIAS is probably the only software company that is more silent than LWG. They released v9 in nov. 2012, and a .1 release in june 2013, accompanied by some bold statements about putting it back on the map. Instead they went dark, and the forum has been pretty much cobwebs and crickets apart from the occational post from diehard users. Think it was in January this year the company made one of their rare posts, still speaking of how they were implementing features......after 3 YEARS!!? With the state of things, they can add features up the wazooo, and I will most likely not buy it, cause I have no faith in the company.

And LWG seems to place themselves in the same category. Being a CORE member I have something invested and Iīll be along for the discount (I can afford it) but once that is gone, thereīs a good chance Iīll flip them the bird, if they donīt change their ways.
Someone said that only software will sell software. Iīd say thereīs also an experience attached to buying and using it.......

MichaelT
10-17-2016, 05:38 AM
Whoa whoa.. calm down there cowboys. Don't begin slinging mud because you're upset. You've got enough of that in your current elections.

erikals
10-17-2016, 06:28 AM
Maybe Tim Jenison just keeps LWG around for the tax write-off.

FEB 28, 2014
"The big problem with Tim’s Vermeer, Vegas show duo Penn and Teller’s new art documentary, is that neither the filmmakers nor its subject seem to know a lick about art. The new film tells the story of Tim Jenison, a billionaire inventor who made his fortune developing video software and who becomes obsessed with figuring out how the Dutch master Johannes Vermeer painted such intricate and life-like images."

http://www.dmagazine.com/arts-entertainment/2014/02/why-tims-vermeer-fails-to-illuminate-the-work-of-the-dutch-master/

it's obvious Peter Simek has no clue.

--------

well, Tim being a billionaire can't hurt.

tyrot
10-17-2016, 06:42 AM
who f----king cares about an art critic anyway..

erikals
10-17-2016, 06:52 AM
i think that's just a hobby of his. if you look at his other published stories.

not really sure what category that puts him in.

Kaptive
10-17-2016, 07:09 AM
Here's the thing with marketing...

Unless you have someone who is absolutely dedicated to the process, it becomes very difficult to maintain when you are too busy doing your actual job. But a dedicated marketing person needs to understand what it is they are marketing and translate what the coders etc have to say into a tangable sellable bit of copy/video. But someone who can trully do that is probably not interested in marketing because they'd rather be coding or creating. These people are incredibly difficult to find (and hold on to).

So you end up in a situation, especially in smaller companies where the troops on the ground have to wear all the hats. Marketing is least important to those actually doing the work. So information comes out in dribs and drabs in places that they are familiar with.

You can say this is bad, awful, terrible, but it is a reality. Without a serious infrastructure to support marketing, it becomes very difficult to maintain. Days fly by, then weeks, and everyone is so busy doing the important stuff that they forget that there are a few folks who hang on every scrap of info. This is made worse in a forum like this where members visit daily... hourly... It becomes the only issue.

Rob was in touch, (maybe not how some would like it) about a month ago. Things are going on. But the lack of marketing is taken personally by some users (at a guess) because they feel it reflects badly on them (?) and the software they use. But here is the bottom line...

Marketing is very expensive, I mean REAL marketing. Those costs related to public awareness will be added on to the cost of the software. If you are happy about that, fine... if prestige is important to you, then something from Autodesk will probably make you feel better about what you do. But with Lightwave, you have to accept the company size, and what that means. The price for LW is incredibly competative for what we get. It fits a certain large niche, and the amount of people in this forum probably represents maybe 1%... maybe even .1% of all users. It would be very sad if everyone here just went to another package, but LW would very likely carry on fine doing what it does.

Think about the past... marketing has always been very thin on the ground, yet here we are in 2016... LW is still here, still serving many people, marketing or no marketing.

But hey... I'm not saying any of you are wrong... of course marketing and public face are important, but without the right person/people to do it, without extra money being found and added on to the cost, you wont see more than what they can afford (fiscally or time wise). It is just a reality. Trying to force them to say something isn't really helpful, and long term will make very little difference to the bulk sales of the software... which is why it is a bit of a waste of time talking about it all.

Well, that's my opinion on it all anyway. I'm sure others will disagree. I'm just speaking of my own experience of smaller companies and how they work. I'm not downplaying anyones views, just a little food for thought.

:)

gamedesign1
10-17-2016, 08:05 AM
Time to move on and forget this place imo.

I know how you feel, but I will always come back here to discuss solutions with my current 2015.3, which makes the majority of my money.

DesertRat
10-17-2016, 10:12 AM
Hah! We can't even get LWG to open-source their DOCUMENTATION!!!! Fat-chance they'd open-source the application itself.

I couldn't quote your "Snowball's chance in Tucson"... it has snowed twice at city level in the last 14 years I have been here. :D
I was shocked how cold the desert can be in the winter when I moved here. And we're total wimps about the cold in these parts...

Snosrap
10-17-2016, 12:27 PM
Here is my2cents. I suspect they have planned regular blogs and were really close to shipping back in April, but then something came up so they kept it back. And then they were planning on June or so and again something else came up. This just became a cycle that they couldn't keep up with so they didn't. Granted a posting or two is long overdue in regards to what's going on, but I think now they could post that LW Next will be out in Q2 of 2017 and it could possibly show up tomorrow. They don't know - hence we don't know.

rustythe1
10-17-2016, 01:21 PM
nope, and nope, they just have I different meaning of the word soon, it has always been the intention to be 2017, its always been the intention to show stuff as it comes, even if there are weeks and months between, and its not likely going to be this side of xmas, they do know, we don't know.

hrgiger
10-17-2016, 02:33 PM
Here's what I think has happened.

They're a group of great guys who are passionate about developing LightWave and just happen to suck at marketing.

Jaqen
10-17-2016, 04:08 PM
a short informative sticky isn't marketing.

Prince Charming
10-17-2016, 04:14 PM
Here's what I think has happened.

They're a group of great guys who are passionate about developing LightWave and just happen to suck at marketing.

The guys developing should have nothing to do with marketing. They are already spread too thin to actively develop a modern 3d app. The big problem I have is that someone at the very top has decided that this is an acceptable way to proceed... and treat customers. Has nothing to do with the people coding. It is a management decision that allows this continue.

I mean, you do see the posts in this thread, right? Who in their right mind would proceed in this direction after seeing that.

With an app that is in the situation LW is in the customers should be kept fully informed.

hrgiger
10-17-2016, 06:51 PM
With an app that is in the situation LW is in the customers should be kept fully informed.

And that's all I'm referring to. I'm not talking about a billboard on Times Square.

How hard is it after 7 months to say a word or two on what to expect? Dont' worry we're working on it isn't cutting it.

erikals
10-17-2016, 06:53 PM
ok, so about 2 months left...

...now, will it be called LW2018 if it goes beyond Christmas... ??.

:santa:

jwiede
10-17-2016, 07:19 PM
Here's what I think has happened.

They're a group of great guys who are passionate about developing LightWave and just happen to suck at marketing.

(IMO) They're a group of great guys who are passionate about developing LightWave, but are too comfortable with an obselete, highly-inefficient engineering methodology, and lack adequate engineering mgmt. to force them to update same (though critically needed). Nobody in engineering should be doing marketing -- wrong skills and mind sets.

jeric_synergy
10-17-2016, 09:38 PM
I don't think RP is in "engineering" per se, he's more a design guy. But in such a small team, is that line super blurry?

I'm still betting on legal constraints as NewTek sells LWG. I can't imagine who might buy it, damaged goods that it has become. Maybe a Japanese firm.

samurai_x
10-17-2016, 11:09 PM
I'm still betting on legal constraints as NewTek sells LWG. I can't imagine who might buy it, damaged goods that it has become. Maybe a Japanese firm.

Maybe another billionaire like Donald Trump :D

jeric_synergy
10-17-2016, 11:14 PM
In that case: C4D, here I come.

sami
10-17-2016, 11:43 PM
With LWCAD you can build a wall.... 8~ :bangwall:

sami
10-17-2016, 11:48 PM
Hasn't anyone heard of continuous delivery?? This is 2016!

How often do they commit code to their repo? This has to be a part-time project now... I hope not, but how on earth are they keeping the light$ on? And what great devs would want to go 2+ years without a release - i.e. the fruit of their hard labor?

vncnt
10-17-2016, 11:58 PM
I think you just confirmed my opinion: seeing is buying.

Unfortunately it did not work out for you.

However, Iīm unable to see the connection between "how LWG runs things" and you finding it hard to "sell it to the world".
If the software is doing its job right, then you should be able to use it and create interesting images.

Can you give us a hint about missing features or problems with the software that made it too difficult for your projects?
Did you have some experience with 3D modelling/animation or are you completely new?

Fine example of lots of text, but no in-page images supporting his/her enthusiasm:
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?151814-Shots-for-my-short&p=1486763#post1486763

Posts like these deserve to be formatted in something that makes it easier to sell and it deserves a place in some kind of trophy page so it can be found easily. Even if it's work-in-progress.

The future of Lightwave might depend on it.

rustythe1
10-18-2016, 12:47 AM
Hasn't anyone heard of continuous delivery?? This is 2016!

How often do they commit code to their repo? This has to be a part-time project now... I hope not, but how on earth are they keeping the light$ on? And what great devs would want to go 2+ years without a release - i.e. the fruit of their hard labor?

over 5 years of coding, it started after core, it will never be part time as this is just the start of opening up a lot of changes, and as for keeping the lights on in 2015 lightwave had around 7% of the cgi market where as maya had 19%, it may seem like a small market but when you consider how big autodesk and maya is its clear they are fine. lightwave is still used a lot on new films, its used a lot for 3d printing for props, its used more for VAD and asset creation nowadays, but the point is its still used,

jeric_synergy
10-18-2016, 01:11 AM
Think about the past... marketing has always been very thin on the ground, yet here we are in 2016... LW is still here, still serving many people, marketing or no marketing.
Nicely stated , but: some folk seem to think that market share is an important metric, no matter what the gross numbers of users might be. There's no doubt (is there?) that LW has lost market share in the animation market, to the point where many professionals have never even heard of it.

Considering the effect an even minute amount of positive communication from LWG would have in getting chatter going from its famously enthusiastic user base, I feel they've taken a strategic misstep.

Possibly the uproars of the past have left LWG gunshy, but..... smh.......

MichaelT
10-18-2016, 01:20 AM
Time to stop visiting these forums..

rustythe1
10-18-2016, 01:39 AM
but how many business people visit these forums daily and expect information? there will be thousands of customers that have no idea that next is coming because they don't visit the forums or subscribe to newsletters, so how can those customers be unhappy? all I see is about 20 or so main posters in the forums, so are they really upsetting their entire user base by ignoring those 20 or so (me included but I'm not that unhappy now as ive read between the lines, found some tiny snippets of inside info and reset my expectations)? now I just come here to stir the cauldron, mwwwaa ha ha ha ha

Spinland
10-18-2016, 04:06 AM
I couldn't quote your "Snowball's chance in Tucson"... it has snowed twice at city level in the last 14 years I have been here. :D
I was shocked how cold the desert can be in the winter when I moved here. And we're total wimps about the cold in these parts...

Indeed. I was stationed at D-M twice, once from 82-85 and again from 86-87. I have pictures of snow on the Saguaro from one of those events. ;D

jeric_synergy
10-18-2016, 09:34 AM
Hey, I didn't say it never snows in Tucson, just implied that the odds are bad. ;)

(it was in the nineties when I posted that.)(Or so a friend was posting on FB.)

DesertRat
10-18-2016, 10:59 AM
Indeed. I was stationed at D-M twice, once from 82-85 and again from 86-87. I have pictures of snow on the Saguaro from one of those events. ;D

Cool!


Hey, I didn't say it never snows in Tucson, just implied that the odds are bad. ;)

(it was in the nineties when I posted that.)(Or so a friend was posting on FB.)

Yeah, I know, it was just a feeble attempt to lighten the mood around here... :)

OlaHaldor
10-19-2016, 11:12 AM
So.. they do have time for newsletters.. but their own blog is left to be dead? I don't get it.

rustythe1
10-19-2016, 11:32 AM
guess what........ new news letter out........ no lightwave... but........ there is a new add a seat of lightwave special, yippee!!

- - - Updated - - -

ahh, you beat me

Spinland
10-19-2016, 12:00 PM
...it was just a feeble attempt to lighten the mood around here...

:jester:

nmh
10-19-2016, 12:49 PM
all that silence and now newsletter without any information about new LW
why are they killing Lightwave?? :(

ernesttx
10-19-2016, 01:40 PM
I've been doing some sleuthin' and it is my feeling that Rob and team are engaged with the production staff on a current sci-fi production that is keeping them quite busy with support for said production; in order to put the new LW through its paces to ensure that it is production ready. :)

rustythe1
10-19-2016, 01:53 PM
funny enough, in mid September startrek discovery was pushed back to may 2017 due to needing more time to do the special effects..... so its a may release for next then

hrgiger
10-19-2016, 01:54 PM
Lightwave newsletters have never been used to provide forward looking information on the software, this shouldn't come as a shock.

I'm annoyed as the next person about LW3DG's vow of silence but seriously all the usual LightWave is dying crap talk gets old. It was old 10 years ago and its old now.

ernesttx
10-19-2016, 02:02 PM
rustythe1 - possible. My time line for LW Next release would be at the earliest Jan 2017. That would give prod team 6 months working with the new LW (their work period is Aug 2016 to April 2017 according to google searches). Next release time would be Feb/March and then April 2017.

Plus, that gives time for promo material for LW to say "hey, LW Next used in new sci fi series, look at images!!"

rustythe1
10-19-2016, 02:18 PM
and exactly why they have to be silent, they cant tell us anything new as no one is there to do it, and they cant tell us why they are not there because of NDA, (we are busy working on stuff that is all good, is more or less the last response we got)

rustythe1
10-19-2016, 02:21 PM
the good thing is from this is that there could be a lot of new tools turning up as they may also be continuing a bit of development on site, that means it could be getting a lot of artist input, that could be good all round.

ernesttx
10-19-2016, 02:27 PM
Yah, that's what I'm hoping is that tools get refined and some new tools get developed. :) One can hope.

wingzeta
10-19-2016, 02:32 PM
Well it seems a little crazy to use a brand new, beta version, on a tight tv schedule. That could be why they had to drop everything else, and can't talk about it, because there were some hiccups in the production and LW3DG had to step in and fix it, or take a hit to their reputation when the VFX have to be done with another package. I'd rather that were true than some of the other possibilities. Either way, a message every couple weeks just saying, "We're still breathing, and working on getting the new version out as soon as we can" would be better than radio silence.

Prince Charming
10-19-2016, 02:36 PM
Lightwave newsletters have never been used to provide forward looking information on the software, this shouldn't come as a shock.

I'm annoyed as the next person about LW3DG's vow of silence but seriously all the usual LightWave is dying crap talk gets old. It was old 10 years ago and its old now.

You can have that opinion, but I would like to know how you think development is being payed for, and how much development you are going to get for the income that LW has? So no, it might not be dead, but it certainly isnt being actively developed at a rate that is on pace with the industry. They can leave the LW site up and sell it for the next ten years, but without updates it sure aint alive!

I am not saying its dead, but i think its naive to not consider that a serious possibility. I dont see how development can be paid for... Like someone else has already mentioned. Unless
Jenison is going to take profits from NT to keep LW afloat... LW is going to need to sell A LOT of licences.

Does the situation seem better or worse to you than it was ten years ago???

I want lightwave to last forever... but not at the expense of having to be delusional.

rustythe1
10-19-2016, 04:16 PM
well if they are working on the show directly, then the show will be paying for the effects, and thus funding lightwave (obviously that's just a theory as we don't know anything apart from rumors) and I have seen new users joining the forums, so the sales must be adding new seats, ndi has taken off for newtek as well so it could be funding LWG, from my digging i can say things look quite promising (cant say what, but it looks good),

gerry_g
10-19-2016, 04:23 PM
think the only thing driving any development is pbr and the need to integrate it into the renderer to keep it viable and current as a cheep render farm option with unlimited nodes, new renderers are proliferating, particularly gpu based ones and are very fashionable for reasons of speed, if they don't compete they can say goodbye to their last meal ticket, I think in every other respect the program is dead, at least as far as most professionals are concerned

jeric_synergy
10-19-2016, 05:19 PM
So.. they do have time for newsletters.. but their own blog is left to be dead? I don't get it.
Where are they announcing newsletter releases (I see it's there): TMK I din't receive a notification.

+++

Oh, it popped up in my FB feed.

fablefox
10-19-2016, 07:43 PM
Lightwave newsletters have never been used to provide forward looking information on the software, this shouldn't come as a shock.

I'm annoyed as the next person about LW3DG's vow of silence but seriously all the usual LightWave is dying crap talk gets old. It was old 10 years ago and its old now.

To a lot of people, lightwave *is* dead/old.

I still remember the interview / special article about LW in 3D World (forget which year, but 2006-7 ish or something?) where everybody was talking how it was too late for LW.

Back in 2010, when I fall for CORE, I noticed that on the film and movie list (old LW website) the number of movies done with LW were dwindling year after year, with the final year having only one film. I have a conversation with someone regarding this, but it seems instead of improving the page, it was dropped alongside pages about CORE.

Oh well.

samurai_x
10-19-2016, 07:58 PM
I noticed that on the film and movie list (old LW website) the number of movies done with LW were dwindling year after year.

That's not a clear indication. Modo is hardly used in film as the go to app. If it was in a movie its always a companion to the max, maya, xsi. Its a sidekick. You don't really see it in movie credits. The Foundry reel is full of nuke stuff not modo. Does that mean its dead? No. Same for lw. Its used in the same capacity as modo.

But they are killing their image as a company with all this silence. Has nothing to do with lightwave. The software is good. The company is something else.

rustythe1
10-20-2016, 02:07 AM
yes lightwave is used a lot for asset creation and props and VAD departments, ive done props myself, any stuff that is outsourced is usually only listed in the credits as a thanks too or named modeller / artist so the technical side never gets listed, lightwave is used more as a quick turn around tool

sami
10-20-2016, 02:16 AM
You can have that opinion, but I would like to know how you think development is being payed for, and how much development you are going to get for the income that LW has? So no, it might not be dead, but it certainly isnt being actively developed at a rate that is on pace with the industry. They can leave the LW site up and sell it for the next ten years, but without updates it sure aint alive!

I am not saying its dead, but i think its naive to not consider that a serious possibility. I dont see how development can be paid for... Like someone else has already mentioned. Unless
Jenison is going to take profits from NT to keep LW afloat... LW is going to need to sell A LOT of licences.

Does the situation seem better or worse to you than it was ten years ago???

I want lightwave to last forever... but not at the expense of having to be delusional.

thank you - finaly somene who's not stuck in the matrix...

bobakabob
10-20-2016, 05:46 AM
The "LW is dead" saga has been going on in these forums since the mid 90s. A recent poster astutely described it as a "doom loop". Yet recently a Star Trek project was recruiting Lightwavers and plenty of people use LW freelance quite cheerfully. The team are working on LW next and we've had a few glimpses. There's no real news on the ZBrush front either - software takes a long time to code. Meanwhile why not use the software to create stuff? Or use other tools?

Spinland
10-20-2016, 05:58 AM
The "LW is dead" saga has been going on in these forums since the mid 90s. A recent poster astutely described it as a "doom loop". Yet recently a Star Trek project was recruiting Lightwavers and plenty of people use LW freelance quite cheerfully. The team are working on LW next and we've had a few glimpses. There's no real news on the ZBrush front either - software takes a long time to code. Meanwhile why not use the software to create stuff? Or use other tools?

Thank you. Finally someone who gets it. :D

jwiede
10-20-2016, 06:19 AM
There's no real news on the ZBrush front either - software takes a long time to code.

Pixologic just announced Zbrush 4R8's features at the start of this month (Oct). Also, Zbrush Core just released less than a week ago (announced early last month). There's actually quite a bit of activity and news occurring on the Zbrush front.

Online-sold products don't "die" like conventional products, because they don't have to "compete for shelf space" and can continue being sold long, long after they've ceased to have any market relevance or significant customer base. Messiah and Silo are both still "being sold" technically, long after the point where any further significant development was underway/expected.

Kinetic Shapes
10-20-2016, 06:54 AM
I think they are saving their marketing energy for when LW Next is out of the door. I believe they will put a lot of energy into promoting it. After all, LW2015 is now old tech compared to the next version being a leap in rendering technology with major rewrites in the code etc. It's just a shame they can't get modeling tools implemented in Layout for this new release, or so they said in a forum post. I suppose designing a interface and workflow is a major undertaking in itself even though Layout will have a modelling foundation under the hood. Most 3D companies remain silent until actual release or maybe a couple of months beforehand. We have seen whats coming with examples in the blog way in advance of release, so it's definitely on it's way. Just sadly, us mo-graph people are not going to get much benefits based on what's been shown so far. Looking to be pleasantly surprised. Though the improved render buffers will be useful and I could make use of the new volumetrics. Better communication meanwhile would be a plus and stop a lot of negativity in the forums.

50one
10-20-2016, 06:55 AM
Zbrush is no good example...

Plenty of comms, plenty of tutorials, plenty of users old/new ones, proper looking online forum, devs listening to user needs and working with the power users closely, industry events attendance.

rustythe1
10-20-2016, 07:24 AM
I think they are saving their marketing energy for when LW Next is out of the door. I believe they will put a lot of energy into promoting it. After all, LW2015 is now old tech compared to the next version being a leap in rendering technology with major rewrites in the code etc. It's just a shame they can't get modeling tools implemented in Layout for this new release, or so they said in a forum post. I suppose designing a interface and workflow is a major undertaking in itself even though Layout will have a modelling foundation under the hood. Most 3D companies remain silent until actual release or maybe a couple of months beforehand. We have seen whats coming with examples in the blog way in advance of release, so it's definitely on it's way. Just sadly, us mo-graph people are not going to get much benefits based on what's been shown so far. Looking to be pleasantly surprised. Though the improved render buffers will be useful and I could make use of the new volumetrics. Better communication meanwhile would be a plus and stop a lot of negativity in the forums.

I would expect that to change rather quickly as layout being geometry aware and being able to affect points edges and polys through displacement would open up a whole mo-graph way of working, I expect you will have to learn nodes but one would guess they would implement some sort of node even in an early release that can affect these areas easily.

erikals
10-20-2016, 08:06 AM
The "LW is dead" saga has been going on in these forums since the mid 90s. A recent poster astutely described it as a "doom loop"

http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif  a fun read indeed >

2004  is Lightwave Dead?
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=174473
2007  Lightwave Dying?
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=536523
2009  is Lightwave Dead?
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?94921-Is-LightWave-dead
2016  is Lightwave Dead?
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=2&t=1388174

Spinland
10-20-2016, 08:32 AM
http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif  a fun read indeed >

http://spinlandhosting.com/smileys/snicker.gif

kadri
10-20-2016, 08:35 AM
Ahem "5. Wasn’t Softimage called dead a few years ago" :D

avjendrike
10-20-2016, 08:56 AM
Ok, here are some nuggets. LWG3D is hard working on the release and it will blow off your minds and max, maya and C4D will sink on their knees and cry for mercy.

- You will get the new renderer with an incredible quality and times faster than anything else on the market. And not to forget extremly easy to setup.
- The modeler will be fully integrated in Layout with new organized tools
- A new Preset-Browser with tons of photorealistic stuff(materials, models, enviroments, setups ect..), ready for use.
- Windows with RT-Preview in a fantastic quality
- new volumetrics and fluids for photorealistic effects(with realtime-preview)
- a complete new manual with tons of video-tutorials

and and and.....

so wait until the first of april. This will the release date.

Thank you for your patience

rustythe1
10-20-2016, 09:06 AM
http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif  a fun read indeed >

2004  is Lightwave Dead?
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=174473
2007  Lightwave Dying?
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=536523
2009  is Lightwave Dead?
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?94921-Is-LightWave-dead
2016  is Lightwave Dead?
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=2&t=1388174

made even more fun by the comments that LW is not on par with XSI,

mav3rick
10-20-2016, 09:23 AM
am i dead :)

bobakabob
10-20-2016, 10:02 AM
Pixologic just announced Zbrush 4R8's features at the start of this month (Oct). Also, Zbrush Core just released less than a week ago (announced early last month). There's actually quite a bit of activity and news occurring on the Zbrush front.

Online-sold products don't "die" like conventional products, because they don't have to "compete for shelf space" and can continue being sold long, long after they've ceased to have any market relevance or significant customer base. Messiah and Silo are both still "being sold" technically, long after the point where any further significant development was underway/expected.

There was some recent ZB media announcing a lite version and a delay to R8. ZB is an awesome product but is taking longer to develop than expected.

If LW is "dead", why do some people feel the need to keep repeating it's dead? This strange obsessive compulsion to flog a dead Lightwave cow has gone on for 20 Years and yet here we are...

Spinland
10-20-2016, 10:13 AM
There was some recent ZB media announcing a lite version and a delay to R8. ZB is an awesome product but is taking longer to develop than expected.

The new zB Core licensing idea does look damned interesting in terms of getting smaller players to buy in. Even with a reduced feature set (I haven't read up on the differences) that is a fine price.


If LW is "dead", why do some people feel the need to keep repeating it's dead? This strange obsessive compulsion to flog a dead Lightwave cow has gone on for 20 Years and yet here we are...

This is the part that puzzles me, as well. For one thing, what in Dante's Nine Hells will any post on these forums (fora?), good or bad, do to influence what is to come? Spoiler alert: none. It's all speculation, naval gazing, and sometimes downright whining. Maybe it's cathartic for the posters, I'll grant that.

Does your copy of LW still work? If not, talk to tech support. If so, what are you doing here instead of using it do make stuff? Can it meet your needs? If not, frikken find some tool that will and then move on to that making stuff thang.

I love LW to pieces. It came into my life at the perfect time and price point to launch my current career and forever will it hold a special place in my heart, and in my workflow. If the LW3DG disbands tomorrow and 2015.3 becomes orphanware it will still serve many useful purposes in my studio.

But it's still a tool. Repeat after me: it. is. only. a. tool. Use it while it works for what it works to accomplish, and don't in cases where it isn't the right one for the job. I'm still seriously contemplating adding Houdini to my kit and if LW Next disappoints I will probably start the process of climbing other learning curves as appropriate. LW is never going away in my world, but it may someday not hold primacy.

That's really the whole story, isn't it?

jboudreau
10-20-2016, 10:24 AM
they either messed up everything .. or majority of things .. i have no other explanation..

Let's just say I don't think you are far off from this statement.

Wickedpup
10-20-2016, 11:01 AM
Does your copy of LW still work? If not, talk to tech support. If so, what are you doing here instead of using it do make stuff? Can it meet your needs? If not, frikken find some tool that will and then move on to that making stuff thang.

What is they say again? Practice what you preach? :hey:

Chris S. (Fez)
10-20-2016, 11:17 AM
How about an update on the update on updating the Blog, Lw Group?

Prince Charming
10-20-2016, 11:33 AM
Is there anyone here who thinks that LW is in a better place than it was ten years ago? Sometimes deaths are long and slow and full of drama... I think its funny how people get upset when others want to look at the writing on the wall, and try to be prepared for whatever may come their way. I love lightwave as much as the next guy (probably more), but at the same time... NT has not given me any reason over the last ten years to believe that they are capable of turning this around.

I will leave this thread be now... I see it as a gathering of the religious and the logical. That never ends well.

ARE THINGS BETTER OR WORSE THAN THEY WERE TEN YEARS AGO? Maybe all those is lightwave dead threads had some validity to them... maybe they should have instead been titled is lightwave dying. From my perspective (started in 2000 using LW) It certainly seems to me like LW is dying, may not be dead yet, but its certainly dying fast. I have a feeling it will end its days in an old age home with messiah.

And spinland... I create when I want to create... not because you are a big baby who cant stand hearing opposing opinions. Why are you allowed to post here, but everyone else has to go create something. Why dont you just block everyone who doesnt agree with you, and save yourself some heart ache... since it seems like you have a hard time with other peoples opinions.

vncnt
10-20-2016, 11:55 AM
Iīm convinced that NT will understand our concerns.
Iīm not convinced that they will change their point of view - and I will understand if they wonīt.


Shall we stop repeating the same message over and over again and continue our work?

50one
10-20-2016, 11:56 AM
is there anyone here who thinks that lw is in a better place than it was ten years ago? Sometimes deaths are long and slow and full of drama... I think its funny how people get upset when others want to look at the writing on the wall, and try to be prepared for whatever may come their way. I love lightwave as much as the next guy (probably more), but at the same time... Nt has not given me any reason over the last ten years to believe that they are capable of turning this around.

qfa

erikals
10-20-2016, 12:14 PM
http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=134872&d=1476987244

https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/5172bq/is_3ds_max_dying

MAUROCOR
10-20-2016, 12:17 PM
I am sure 3DS Max is dying!!! And they donīt uptade their blog since loooooong time ago! ;)

hrgiger
10-20-2016, 12:17 PM
Is there anyone here who thinks that LW is in a better place than it was ten years ago? Sometimes deaths are long and slow and full of drama... I think its funny how people get upset when others want to look at the writing on the wall, and try to be prepared for whatever may come their way. I love lightwave as much as the next guy (probably more), but at the same time... NT has not given me any reason over the last ten years to believe that they are capable of turning this around.



No I don't believe it is in a better place then it was 10 years ago but that's not really relevant is it? I would argue that LW was in a better place 10 years because its now outdated architecture wasn't as big of an issue as it is today. While its userbase has gone down, I would say that also offers new opportunities for growth now if they are truly modernizing the codebase. If you're really looking at LightWave saying look how far its fallen behind the pace of a Max or Maya...that's like saying you know my fairly new car isn't keeping pace with the newer space shuttle models coming out. And I'm not making that comparison to point out one being more advanced than the other, just saying its a different market. Yes, they're both 3D packages just like a car and space shuttle are both forms of transportation but the same people aren't buying them. Do you really think there are people weighing the pros and cons and choosing between LW or Maya? LW is a niche product tailored to individual artists, small studios and people just entering the industry either for hobby or as a stepping stone to a career. Maya on the other hand is tailored to higher end productions not just because its got 'better features' but because its customizable and built almost entirely to that end. And both niches have a place in the market without crowding each other out.

People keep talking about how many licenses LW3dg would have to sell to stay afloat and its all just bunk because you have no idea how many licenses are out there, how many they have sold or will sell now or in the future. In the end, it doesn't matter what you think or speculate about their business model, they will continue to develop LightWave or they will not. Not much you can do about it.

For myself, I see using LW for the forseeable future because its the app I have the most experience in and I can get in and out of it quickly to accomplish whatever I'm working on. But I'm also not blind to the decline of users I've seen over the years and I have attempted to future proof my pipeline by adding other software packages that add redundancy to the toolset I employ.

I see the same people keep griping about LW's viability all the time and yet they keep coming back here, apparently to remind the rest of us. Trust us Nostradamuses, we get it. I know quite a few people now, people I talk to on Skype or on Facebook that don't come back to the forums because of negative sh|t like this. I get that too.

jwiede
10-20-2016, 01:00 PM
If LW is "dead", why do some people feel the need to keep repeating it's dead?

By all means, please bring us all back to that tired strawman you've spent so long assembling without any opposition. And you're going to burn it now? Zzzzz. :rolleyes:

rustythe1
10-20-2016, 01:12 PM
http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=134872&d=1476987244

https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/5172bq/is_3ds_max_dying

I linked to an article a while back (probably before the forum broke) that rumoured autodesk was working on moving all max tools into maya and then killing max off (xsmiyamax?) as why have to develop several apps when you could streamline into one,

Spinland
10-20-2016, 01:31 PM
What is they say again? Practice what you preach? :hey:

Heh. Fair statement. As I wrote that (and this) I've been sitting at the bar at my favorite brew pub making crazy solid connections with a businessman who just came back to the area from Shanghai. I wasn't literally animating but I expect this time is going to produce some great gigs. I'll soften my somewhat blunt statement, as one cannot always be animating. At least I wasn't at the keyboard whining. Sometimes it's time to tell the kids to get off my G-D lawn. ;D

Spinland
10-20-2016, 01:34 PM
And spinland... I create when I want to create... not because you are a big baby who cant stand hearing opposing opinions. Why are you allowed to post here, but everyone else has to go create something. Why dont you just block everyone who doesnt agree with you, and save yourself some heart ache... since it seems like you have a hard time with other peoples opinions.

Heh. So many problems with that mess of a statement I won't even start trying to correct your misapprehensions. If you present a problem and don't also propose a solution that is called whining. Simple as that. Get it? :)

jwiede
10-20-2016, 01:44 PM
I see the same people keep griping about LW's viability all the time and yet they keep coming back here, apparently to remind the rest of us.

Or, much more probably (given this is a company customer forum), they're just dissatisfied product customers trying to get the company responsible to address their pain points with said product.

Spinland
10-20-2016, 02:13 PM
Or, much more probably (given this is a company customer forum), they're just dissatisfied product customers trying to get the company responsible to address their pain points with said product.

And how many times will they continue to post the same tired refrain? Regardless of whether their unhappiness is justified, sometimes some of us raise the BS flag and declare enough. One whine, or a thousand, it's still whining. If it's not obvious by now p***ing and moaning on these boards will accomplish nothing useful then I am at a loss.

That's fine. I am often at a loss. Life confounds me at times. Today I let irritation at the endless whining overcome my good sense and I griped back. Apologies, I'll go back to just shaking my head in bemusement at all this nonsense. Feel free to backbite me at all of your respective leisure, for your insults to matter I'd have to value your opinions. That probably won't happen. :yoda:

bobakabob
10-20-2016, 03:20 PM
No I don't believe it is in a better place then it was 10 years ago but that's not really relevant is it? I would argue that LW was in a better place 10 years because its now outdated architecture wasn't as big of an issue as it is today. While its userbase has gone down, I would say that also offers new opportunities for growth now if they are truly modernizing the codebase. If you're really looking at LightWave saying look how far its fallen behind the pace of a Max or Maya...that's like saying you know my fairly new car isn't keeping pace with the newer space shuttle models coming out. And I'm not making that comparison to point out one being more advanced than the other, just saying its a different market. Yes, they're both 3D packages just like a car and space shuttle are both forms of transportation but the same people aren't buying them. Do you really think there are people weighing the pros and cons and choosing between LW or Maya? LW is a niche product tailored to individual artists, small studios and people just entering the industry either for hobby or as a stepping stone to a career. Maya on the other hand is tailored to higher end productions not just because its got 'better features' but because its customizable and built almost entirely to that end. And both niches have a place in the market without crowding each other out.

People keep talking about how many licenses LW3dg would have to sell to stay afloat and its all just bunk because you have no idea how many licenses are out there, how many they have sold or will sell now or in the future. In the end, it doesn't matter what you think or speculate about their business model, they will continue to develop LightWave or they will not. Not much you can do about it.

For myself, I see using LW for the forseeable future because its the app I have the most experience in and I can get in and out of it quickly to accomplish whatever I'm working on. But I'm also not blind to the decline of users I've seen over the years and I have attempted to future proof my pipeline by adding other software packages that add redundancy to the toolset I employ.

I see the same people keep griping about LW's viability all the time and yet they keep coming back here, apparently to remind the rest of us. Trust us Nostradamuses, we get it. I know quite a few people now, people I talk to on Skype or on Facebook that don't come back to the forums because of negative sh|t like this. I get that too.

Well said, says it all.

Prince Charming
10-20-2016, 04:15 PM
No I don't believe it is in a better place then it was 10 years ago but that's not really relevant is it? I would argue that LW was in a better place 10 years because its now outdated architecture wasn't as big of an issue as it is today. While its userbase has gone down, I would say that also offers new opportunities for growth now if they are truly modernizing the codebase. If you're really looking at LightWave saying look how far its fallen behind the pace of a Max or Maya...that's like saying you know my fairly new car isn't keeping pace with the newer space shuttle models coming out. And I'm not making that comparison to point out one being more advanced than the other, just saying its a different market. Yes, they're both 3D packages just like a car and space shuttle are both forms of transportation but the same people aren't buying them. Do you really think there are people weighing the pros and cons and choosing between LW or Maya? LW is a niche product tailored to individual artists, small studios and people just entering the industry either for hobby or as a stepping stone to a career. Maya on the other hand is tailored to higher end productions not just because its got 'better features' but because its customizable and built almost entirely to that end. And both niches have a place in the market without crowding each other out.

People keep talking about how many licenses LW3dg would have to sell to stay afloat and its all just bunk because you have no idea how many licenses are out there, how many they have sold or will sell now or in the future. In the end, it doesn't matter what you think or speculate about their business model, they will continue to develop LightWave or they will not. Not much you can do about it.

For myself, I see using LW for the forseeable future because its the app I have the most experience in and I can get in and out of it quickly to accomplish whatever I'm working on. But I'm also not blind to the decline of users I've seen over the years and I have attempted to future proof my pipeline by adding other software packages that add redundancy to the toolset I employ.

I see the same people keep griping about LW's viability all the time and yet they keep coming back here, apparently to remind the rest of us. Trust us Nostradamuses, we get it. I know quite a few people now, people I talk to on Skype or on Facebook that don't come back to the forums because of negative sh|t like this. I get that too.

Sure its relevant, when something is getting progressively worse over a period of time it is a good indication of the direction the curve is heading ;)

You can say that we dont know how many seats are out there, BUT what we do know is the image that LW has gotten over the last ten years in the industry. Who are all these people that you think are going to come flocking in droves to buy Lightwave? It is clear to see that the CURRENT income from the CURRENT user base is not enough. That is plain to see for everyone... or it should be! Are you happy with the pace of dev over the last ten years that was paid for by the current user base?

I dont want them to compete with max, maya, or anyone. I want things like undo, and the ability to clone rigs without the controls getting messed up, and tools that are well thought out, and work properly.

Look at the curve node... great concept, except without the pre and post behaviors it really defeats half the purpose of having that type of node. How does this type of thing make it in a final release (and stay like that for years)? That tells me that the person coding has very little clue about the things that need to be done in 3d... I mean all they have to do is look how its done in every other app!

Also, the fracture tool is totally useless. If I payed someone to produce that I would be really pist off! I tried to use it last night and no matter how you use it it produces errors and holes in the mesh. You can minimize the effect, but every mesh that comes out of fracture has defects in it. How does this stuff get put into a final release? Do they not see how this stuff functions in other apps... including free blender? (why are people going to buy lightwave again?)

Its actually pitiful, I would be so embarrassed if I was to leave a job that I did and it was as poorly done as many of the tools in LW are! In fact, it wouldn't happen, because I would be called back to fix it.

Its not that I want lightwave to die, or that like fighting with fanboys all day. Its just my opinion that NT has not done anything in the last ten years that makes me think they can produce a quality 3d product. Simple as that. I wish someone would buy lightwave... IMO that is the best case scenario... cant get any worse than dead or NT.

Prince Charming
10-20-2016, 04:17 PM
Heh. So many problems with that mess of a statement I won't even start trying to correct your misapprehensions. If you present a problem and don't also propose a solution that is called whining. Simple as that. Get it? :)

The question is... Why are you allowed to complain here, and post your opinion, but others have to go create something? Its pretty simple question...

erikals
10-20-2016, 04:32 PM
i think this release will reveal a lot. as to how far LightWave is and can go.

i'm in no rush though, currently cleaning up about 1000 LightWave references/files...


LW2017 > Christmas maybe...

:santa:

Spinland
10-20-2016, 06:45 PM
The question is... Why are you allowed to complain here, and post your opinion, but others have to go create something? Its pretty simple question...

The simple answer is, that's not the case so your premise is flawed and therefore your question has no meaning or answer. Shall we go reductio ad absurdum? Why can't I complain about your complaining? We can go infinitely recursive on this if you'd like, but I don't see the end game. I have better things to do anyway. I regret having complained, for all I find the endless carping and whining to be just as endlessly annoying. I shall strive to do a better job of tolerating the nonsense without speaking up. :)

Spinland
10-20-2016, 06:48 PM
Although some folks have said they will let this thread be, and yet here they still are, I shall so declare and I, at least, mean it. Nothing of merit to be found here, so peace out.

js33
10-20-2016, 08:29 PM
Sure its relevant, when something is getting progressively worse over a period of time it is a good indication of the direction the curve is heading ;)

You can say that we dont know how many seats are out there, BUT what we do know is the image that LW has gotten over the last ten years in the industry. Who are all these people that you think are going to come flocking in droves to buy Lightwave? It is clear to see that the CURRENT income from the CURRENT user base is not enough. That is plain to see for everyone... or it should be! Are you happy with the pace of dev over the last ten years that was paid for by the current user base?

I dont want them to compete with max, maya, or anyone. I want things like undo, and the ability to clone rigs without the controls getting messed up, and tools that are well thought out, and work properly.

Look at the curve node... great concept, except without the pre and post behaviors it really defeats half the purpose of having that type of node. How does this type of thing make it in a final release (and stay like that for years)? That tells me that the person coding has very little clue about the things that need to be done in 3d... I mean all they have to do is look how its done in every other app!

Also, the fracture tool is totally useless. If I payed someone to produce that I would be really pist off! I tried to use it last night and no matter how you use it it produces errors and holes in the mesh. You can minimize the effect, but every mesh that comes out of fracture has defects in it. How does this stuff get put into a final release? Do they not see how this stuff functions in other apps... including free blender? (why are people going to buy lightwave again?)

Its actually pitiful, I would be so embarrassed if I was to leave a job that I did and it was as poorly done as many of the tools in LW are! In fact, it wouldn't happen, because I would be called back to fix it.

Its not that I want lightwave to die, or that like fighting with fanboys all day. Its just my opinion that NT has not done anything in the last ten years that makes me think they can produce a quality 3d product. Simple as that. I wish someone would buy lightwave... IMO that is the best case scenario... cant get any worse than dead or NT.

Look on the bright side we can always go use Maya, Max, C4D, Modo, Houdini or Blender. That's not such a bad trade off except for the prices. If price is an issue Blender is getting better at a fast clip and is almost usable now.

hrgiger
10-20-2016, 08:44 PM
Sure its relevant, when something is getting progressively worse over a period of time it is a good indication of the direction the curve is heading ;)

You can say that we dont know how many seats are out there, BUT what we do know is the image that LW has gotten over the last ten years in the industry. Who are all these people that you think are going to come flocking in droves to buy Lightwave? It is clear to see that the CURRENT income from the CURRENT user base is not enough. That is plain to see for everyone... or it should be! Are you happy with the pace of dev over the last ten years that was paid for by the current user base?


People act like there are a set number of software users in the world. It is a constantly changing number and there are new users all the time. People are still having babies you know and some of them grow up to do 3D. I'm merely saying that LightWave has a niche as a lower cost alternative to a lot of the alternatives and its certainly suitable as a application for a person to get their start with but it is also capable of being used in production. I also know there are many people who have formerly used LW that still own older licenses that could also upgrade if LW3DG made the changes that caused the people to drift away from LW to begin with.

Again, no one here can make any definitive statement about how well or not well LW3DG is doing in terms of selling licenses. You've seen people leave LW but you have no number for that. You also don't know how many new users they've gained at the same time. You don't know what their operating costs are. You don't know how much their employees are all paid. Even if LW3DG were losing money, Tim Jenison could very well be using any loss to write off against profits he makes from the video side of the business. But that's the point, we don't know and so speculating about it is useless. Just because you perceive things to be worse than 10 years ago, doesn't make it so. I mean, I'm not saying its not, just saying you can't put it in any quantifiable terms that mean anything from a user perspective. I mean what are you basing it on? Jobs available? Forum participation? Phone surveys you've personally conducted?

Am I happy with the pace of development? I don't think pace of development has much to do with it as much as quality of development. I'd be perfectly happy with the pace of development as it is if they were going about it the right way. Whether or not you agreed with CORE, something drastic had to happen at some point. All the things you are complaining about, undos, weight painting in Layout, having multiple tools that don't communicate with each other.... all of these things are because of the way LW was originally designed and now we have been paying the price for. LW doesn't need feature growth, it needs feature rebuilding from the bottom up. Without rewriting or restructuring LW, we're going to keep getting implementations of tools that fall short of user expectations. Silly users asking for ridiculous things like fluid simulation... give me a break...

In the next version they've implemented a deformer stack, faster deformations with a new geometry engine that is point, edge and polygon aware, a new PBR renderer, new render buffer system, new volumetric system, actual render time geometry for hair... If people are really going to say all of that falls short of their expectation for pace of development for a single release then I don't know what to tell you. I'm more concerned with how well these features work and how well they work together more than I am how many there are. I get it, you want weight painting in Layout, join the club of most other people that use LW. That wouldn't be possible without them implementing a geometry core that even know what geometry elements like points, polys or edges were. Unless you want some sh|tty implementation like vertex paint which is a hack. Arent you tired of hacks by now in LW? I know I am. People will complain there isn't modeling in Layout in the next version yet but again, they tried that in version 9, didn't work because the architecture wasn't made for it and it failed. Just me but I see laying groundwork for real change as vastly more important than trying to shoehorn in crap features just to make a head turning feature list.

Exclaim
10-20-2016, 09:53 PM
People just need to focus on the reasons for purchasing the software. Some people foolishly subscribe to Maya to model things because they heard it is the industry standard software. Lightwave's strength is: it can reasonably do it all with a decent UI and low price. It's weakness are: it doesn't incorporate plug-ins to the base software, is not supported as well as it's competitors, and has a few bugs.

I believe LW3DG is taking the right steps by updating the VFX, and rendering side of the software. Upgrades to modeler aren't relevant to the target market. If LW can take the Houdini market, and recover some of the Autodesk market, then they can very well make a comeback. The current path is a good.

spherical
10-20-2016, 10:22 PM
I see the same people keep griping about LW's viability all the time and yet they keep coming back here, apparently to remind the rest of us. Trust us Nostradamuses, we get it. I know quite a few people now, people I talk to on Skype or on Facebook that don't come back to the forums because of negative sh|t like this.

This reminded me of a time during which I had my first two Corvettes. Belonged to a local Corvette Club. Was great for a while, meeting up with people having a common interest, lively discussions, learning new things, what owners were doing to customize their ride, sharing where to get parts, etc., but eventually the meetings began to turn more and more to membership discussions. Eventually, the meetings became not fun anymore, because the topic of discussion was: "Why aren't people coming to meetings?" Ummmm... because if this is all you are going to talk about each month, I'll stay home and beat myself in the head with a ball peen hammer because it is more fun.

fablefox
10-20-2016, 10:27 PM
I linked to an article a while back (probably before the forum broke) that rumoured autodesk was working on moving all max tools into maya and then killing max off (xsmiyamax?) as why have to develop several apps when you could streamline into one,

xsi did _dead_.

==edit==

also, i like to add the reason one of them (maya or max) still alive is the same reason CORE was dead. Nobody want to learn new GUI.

While i'm not autodesk developer, I think they are developing shareable libraries now. so the same tech can be used by both software, and fixing bugs in that lib fix bugs on both software. For example, FBX is its own library. What might stay the same is GUI and how work is done on both app. Because maya users doesn't want to learn max and vice versa.

spherical
10-20-2016, 10:32 PM
Look at the curve node... great concept, except without the pre and post behaviors it really defeats half the purpose of having that type of node. How does this type of thing make it in a final release (and stay like that for years)? That tells me that the person coding has very little clue about the things that need to be done in 3d... I mean all they have to do is look how its done in every other app!

Also, the fracture tool is totally useless. If I payed someone to produce that I would be really pist off! I tried to use it last night and no matter how you use it it produces errors and holes in the mesh. You can minimize the effect, but every mesh that comes out of fracture has defects in it. How does this stuff get put into a final release? Do they not see how this stuff functions in other apps... including free blender? (why are people going to buy lightwave again?)

Its actually pitiful, I would be so embarrassed if I was to leave a job that I did and it was as poorly done as many of the tools in LW are! In fact, it wouldn't happen, because I would be called back to fix it.

Got some Bug Report Numbers on these for us, so that we can all pile on and get the bugs voted up the food chain so that they're fixed?

fablefox
10-20-2016, 10:35 PM
made even more fun by the comments that LW is not on par with XSI,

that is true. there is a reason why AD bought XSI and not LW. A lot of XSI tech is in Maya now.

fablefox
10-20-2016, 10:38 PM
Look on the bright side we can always go use Maya, Max, C4D, Modo, Houdini or Blender. That's not such a bad trade off except for the prices. If price is an issue Blender is getting better at a fast clip and is almost usable now.

Ton missed the boat when 2.5 was released and he was staying with the left/right click thingy. Lack of funding for his open film (and up short film) and he finally realized go to mass, gotta support the mass.

Ironic is few days ago he-retweet Joel on Software article about GUI. Making sure things are the same across app/OS was stressed in the article. oh well.

spherical
10-20-2016, 10:40 PM
Just me but I see laying groundwork for real change as vastly more important than trying to shoehorn in crap features just to make a head turning feature list.

Not just you. +1

That said, doing that which they are attempting (making major changes in a LOT of areas in order to make significant leaps) entails at least SOME level of backward compatibility; else a whole potful of current users will be very inconvenienced, to say the very least. This requires MORE care and MORE work than just starting from zip.

samurai_x
10-20-2016, 11:21 PM
2004  is Lightwave Dead?
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=174473
2007  Lightwave Dying?
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=536523
2009  is Lightwave Dead?
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?94921-Is-LightWave-dead
2016  is Lightwave Dead?
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=2&t=1388174

Too bad there's a lot of hate at cgtalk. Most of those guys have real talent and working for AAA studios. For them to look down on lightwave doesn't help to get new users to buy into lightwave. Newbies asking about lightwave over there will eventually conclude lightwave is not going anywhere.

fablefox
10-21-2016, 12:06 AM
Too bad there's a lot of hate at cgtalk. Most of those guys have real talent and working for AAA studios. For them to look down on lightwave doesn't help to get new users to buy into lightwave. Newbies asking about lightwave over there will eventually conclude lightwave is not going anywhere.

but they still have a point. for newbies, choosing LW means lack of book, lack of tutorial, lack of plug-ins.

if they really want to get their feet wet, Blender is better bet currently.

==edit==

and if they are student, autodesk product is basically free ( non commercial).

samurai_x
10-21-2016, 12:15 AM
but they still have a point. for newbies, choosing LW means lack of book, lack of tutorial, lack of plug-ins.

if they really want to get their feet wet, Blender is better bet currently.

Lack of books? Millennials don't read books. They watch tutorials. Haha.
Lots of them on youtube and liberty3d.

Blender is a terrible start. It doesn't follow conventions that are easily transferable to other appz. Its just like zbrush. Where else will you have to delete hidden your unselected selection to delete a selection?

Transition from simpler appz like modo, lw into more complex apps like maya, houdini is more practical.

Exclaim
10-21-2016, 12:32 AM
but they still have a point. for newbies, choosing LW means lack of book, lack of tutorial, lack of plug-ins.

if they really want to get their feet wet, Blender is better bet currently.

==edit==

and if they are student, autodesk product is basically free ( non commercial).
There are plenty of books and some tutorials for Lightwave. Blender books are over priced, written/published by amateurs, and some are outdated. Autodesk is doing the best with support IMHO. The guys working for studios really have to work with what the studio decides to use. It depends on how the pipeline is going to work. Some of the software is not off the shelf, and some of it has tools that the average user doesn't, which may not be compatible with other software.

Prince Charming
10-21-2016, 02:26 AM
Got some Bug Report Numbers on these for us, so that we can all pile on and get the bugs voted up the food chain so that they're fixed?

They can pay someone for that... I do enough to make this software look better than it is.
I dont even do this for a living, let someone who uses lightwave for money beta test and do quality control for free.

The point is, the things I mentioned should have never made it out the door! In the case of the curve node, all they have to do is look how it is implemented in every other app, and understand why the pre and post behaviors are a large part of what this node normally is used for. It really does show that the person who coded it has very little idea why the tool he was making is important in a 3d workflow.

And the fracture tool is totally useless... all you have to do is try it once. They know its useless, and still released it that way. So no amount of bug reports is going to help... they knew before it was released that it was sub par. (and that goes for many more tools than just fracture)

It will work to break up the mesh into pieces, but in EVERY case it leaves mesh errors and holes. Sure, you can still get away with using it in some cases, but why bother when there are free options that do it perfect, and why even waste the money to produce a sub par tool when there are free options that do it perfect. That is why I have very little respect or confidence in NT.

And just so everyone understand where I am coming from... I spent 16 years of my life learning this app (others have spent even more). So it should not be a surprise to people that there are some of us who are a little irritated at the way that NT has handled LWs development. I chose this tool, and put a ton of effort into learning it... just to have other peoples incompetence effect its quality and future.

That being said, nothing lasts forever, and its always good to learn new things... So its not the end of the world, but I dont have to pretend to have warm and fuzzy feelings for NT. The dont deserve praise from anyone at this point, and those fan boys that continually give it arent doing anyone any good. The proof is in the product, so lets see what they can produce... and if its of good quality I will be the first person to say it. They have added a few good tools in the past years, but they are outweighed by the junk, and the years of neglected tools and abandoned workflows.

Let us see what lw next brings... that is the only thing that will give us a clue as to how LWs future will be. I do think this is a do or die release for them... so lets hope that they finally step up.

js33
10-21-2016, 02:55 AM
Since you don't use LW for a living I don't understand why you don't just use Houdini apprentice (free) or Houdini Indie ($200 yr) for the tutorials and mograph you do? Those tools seem a lot more useful for what you want to do. I know you do use Houdini some but why even bother with LW when Houdini is levels above tool wise?

Prince Charming
10-21-2016, 04:12 AM
Since you don't use LW for a living I don't understand why you don't just use Houdini apprentice (free) or Houdini Indie ($200 yr) for the tutorials and mograph you do? Those tools seem a lot more useful for what you want to do. I know you do use Houdini some but why even bother with LW when Houdini is levels above tool wise?

I use zbrush, Houdini, and lightwave. I will use Houdini more as I learn it better and better. Its actually nice being able to learn it like I have been... at my own pace.
Houdini is not levels above many of dponts tools from a usability stand point. Also, rendering and surfacing in LW is a better experience IMO. Also, Houdini needs a modeler.

There are things that can be done with dponts nodes that would be much more difficult to replicate in Houdini... both in surfacing and deformations.

The sad part is that LW could have competed with the others if NT would have exploited certain workflows. With a few key changes, and emphasis put on certain workflows... LW could have updated the old render, and the old deformation system, and still been able to compete. The problem is that no one at NT is thinking innovatively.

One problem that should really be fixed is the fact that rigs cant be cloned without messing up referencing. To me this issue alone is enough for LW to not ever be taken seriously by a major studio. (Surprised it lasted as long as it did with this shortcoming). This should be the first thing on their list to be fixed... Lets see if its fixed in next?

erikals
10-21-2016, 05:28 AM
One problem that should really be fixed is the fact that rigs cant be cloned without messing up referencing.
+10

js33
10-21-2016, 05:29 AM
Yes I do agree LW is solid for modeling and rendering. Animating is ok but as you said could be so much more powerful if the workflows were more organized and accessible for higher end stuff like mograph. I've dabbled with Houdini some and it takes time to get into it. I've also been using C4D and it has powerful and accessible workflows that Lightwave lacks to a large degree especially regarding Mograph.

TheLexx
10-21-2016, 05:40 AM
One problem that should really be fixed is the fact that rigs cant be cloned without messing up referencing. To me this issue alone is enough for LW to not ever be taken seriously by a major studio. (Surprised it lasted as long as it did with this shortcoming). This should be the first thing on their list to be fixed... Lets see if its fixed in next?Am I right that RebelHill's Rhiggit allows one to do this ?

rustythe1
10-21-2016, 05:42 AM
well again I think people are underestimating the market of lightwave, some recent surveys into the 3d printing market have shown lightwave ranks quite high in 3d printing (I work heavily in this industry) it ranks 19 which may sound low but its currently a $30 billion industry, this is the list that ranked bellow lightwave

Sculptris, Grasshopper, FreeCAD, MoI3D, 3Dtin, Wings3D, BRL-CAD, 3D Canvas, 3D Creationist, 3D-Coat, 3DPlus, 3DSlash, 3DVIA Shape, AC3D, Alias, Alibre Design Xpress,*Anarkik3D Ltd,*Anim8or, Animation:Master, Art of Illusion, Autodesk Revit, Autodesk Softimage, AutoQ3D, Bishop3D, Blink 3D, Bryce, Carrara, CASCADE, Catia, Cheetah3D, City Engine, Clara.io, DAZ Studio, DesignWorkshop, eDrawings, EIAS, Flux, Form-Z, fragMOTION, GDesign, Hexagon, Houdini, K3DSurf, LeoCAD, MASSIVE, Metasequioa, MilkShape3D, Minos, MorphiApp, OnShape, Poser, Pro/E, RaySupreme, Remo 3D, SculptGL, Seamless3D, Shade 3D, Silo, SOCET SET, SolidEdge, SolidThinking, SpaceClaim, Strata 3D, Sweet Home 3D, TopMod 3D, TrueSpace, Unigraphics, Vectorworks, XSI, and Zmodeler

I am supprised to see solid products, revit, catia, Carrera, daz, free cad, wings and sculptris all bellow lightwave as many of these are free or designed for cad.
it was also listed as having a score of over 50 out 100 for websites talking about lightwave an 3d printing (forum posts etc) so if you only had 1% of that market that's still a potential $300,000,000 market you are serving

Prince Charming
10-21-2016, 05:52 AM
Am I right that RebelHill's Rhiggit allows one to do this ? I dont know if it does... I tend to think if it does, it is not actually cloning the rig, but recreating it with the updated references. I would imagine that after the rig is created the controls are referenced just like all the other references in LW. You will have to ask him...

Wickedpup
10-21-2016, 07:56 AM
well again I think people are underestimating the market of lightwave, some recent surveys into the 3d printing market have shown lightwave ranks quite high in 3d printing (I work heavily in this industry) it ranks 19 which may sound low but its currently a $30 billion industry, this is the list that ranked bellow lightwave

Sculptris, Grasshopper, FreeCAD, MoI3D, 3Dtin, Wings3D, BRL-CAD, 3D Canvas, 3D Creationist, 3D-Coat, 3DPlus, 3DSlash, 3DVIA Shape, AC3D, Alias, Alibre Design Xpress,*Anarkik3D Ltd,*Anim8or, Animation:Master, Art of Illusion, Autodesk Revit, Autodesk Softimage, AutoQ3D, Bishop3D, Blink 3D, Bryce, Carrara, CASCADE, Catia, Cheetah3D, City Engine, Clara.io, DAZ Studio, DesignWorkshop, eDrawings, EIAS, Flux, Form-Z, fragMOTION, GDesign, Hexagon, Houdini, K3DSurf, LeoCAD, MASSIVE, Metasequioa, MilkShape3D, Minos, MorphiApp, OnShape, Poser, Pro/E, RaySupreme, Remo 3D, SculptGL, Seamless3D, Shade 3D, Silo, SOCET SET, SolidEdge, SolidThinking, SpaceClaim, Strata 3D, Sweet Home 3D, TopMod 3D, TrueSpace, Unigraphics, Vectorworks, XSI, and Zmodeler

I am supprised to see solid products, revit, catia, Carrera, daz, free cad, wings and sculptris all bellow lightwave as many of these are free or designed for cad.
it was also listed as having a score of over 50 out 100 for websites talking about lightwave an 3d printing (forum posts etc) so if you only had 1% of that market that's still a potential $300,000,000 market you are serving

I find that comparison list a bit weird. Specialised modelling/content applications (Silo, Wings, Moi, Topmod, DAZ, Bryce, Poser, etc....), dead (as in NO active development) applications (Carrara, Hexagon, Sculptris, etc), even deader applications (Truespace, XSI, etc) lots of CAD applications, even a Rhino plugin (Grasshopper)?

rustythe1
10-21-2016, 08:45 AM
its a list of what people use, just because an app is not developed does not mean people don't use it, people still use messiah, moi is about the only app that can import parametric files well so its used a lot to go between solid works, why do people keep saying dead? truespace is still used a lot now and the last version was probably around 2008, so it looks like everything lives on to me even if there is no development, and as we have seen there is LW development, so how can it die? things like Daz now use Iray, so haw are they dead?

Wickedpup
10-21-2016, 10:35 AM
Never said DAZ or was dead, only that it is a specialized content app. Same goes for Moi, a specialised modelling app. My point was that it sounded like you were referring to this list of apps as something impressive, while I have trouble seeing anything on it that leaves me flabbergasted.

prometheus
10-21-2016, 10:38 AM
well again I think people are underestimating the market of lightwave, some recent surveys into the 3d printing market have shown lightwave ranks quite high in 3d printing (I work heavily in this industry) it ranks 19 which may sound low but its currently a $30 billion industry, this is the list that ranked bellow lightwave

Sculptris, Grasshopper, FreeCAD, MoI3D, 3Dtin, Wings3D, BRL-CAD, 3D Canvas, 3D Creationist, 3D-Coat, 3DPlus, 3DSlash, 3DVIA Shape, AC3D, Alias, Alibre Design Xpress,*Anarkik3D Ltd,*Anim8or, Animation:Master, Art of Illusion, Autodesk Revit, Autodesk Softimage, AutoQ3D, Bishop3D, Blink 3D, Bryce, Carrara, CASCADE, Catia, Cheetah3D, City Engine, Clara.io, DAZ Studio, DesignWorkshop, eDrawings, EIAS, Flux, Form-Z, fragMOTION, GDesign, Hexagon, Houdini, K3DSurf, LeoCAD, MASSIVE, Metasequioa, MilkShape3D, Minos, MorphiApp, OnShape, Poser, Pro/E, RaySupreme, Remo 3D, SculptGL, Seamless3D, Shade 3D, Silo, SOCET SET, SolidEdge, SolidThinking, SpaceClaim, Strata 3D, Sweet Home 3D, TopMod 3D, TrueSpace, Unigraphics, Vectorworks, XSI, and Zmodeler

I am supprised to see solid products, revit, catia, Carrera, daz, free cad, wings and sculptris all bellow lightwave as many of these are free or designed for cad.
it was also listed as having a score of over 50 out 100 for websites talking about lightwave an 3d printing (forum posts etc) so if you only had 1% of that market that's still a potential $300,000,000 market you are serving

Where is this list? and does it indicate somehow why lightwave is ranked that high up considering?

hypersuperduper
10-21-2016, 11:06 AM
It would be interesting to see how many licenses LW3D group sells. I imagine it is more than people think. For the asking price you are basically limited to lightwave and blender when it comes to full featured 3D applications. And in my experience lightwave has FAR better interchange with the big boys than blender. Anecdotal evidence here: I brought in lightwave to my most recent job at a small Maya based studio, simply because I could work faster in lightwave than Maya. I will soon be moving on now, and will be leaving behind a whole bunch of lightwave assets. Most of them are in Maya too of course, but I wouldn't be surprised if they invested in a lightwave license just to be able to open all the work files and to gain access to a handful of nifty lightwave tools. It is so cheap that the cost is negligible for all but the very smallest companies. I think that is the best thing about lightwave currently. It can do most anything you need it to and is very well suited to multiple app pipelines. Blender really seems to work better if you go all in which isn't always practical.

jeric_synergy
10-21-2016, 12:30 PM
That interchange I think was RP's focus: with his film background he saw that the one life-ring that could be implemented quickly was "be a nice bit of the pipeline".

Sadly, everything else has taken a long time.

hrgiger
10-21-2016, 01:10 PM
The sad part is that LW could have competed with the others if NT would have exploited certain workflows. With a few key changes, and emphasis put on certain workflows... LW could have updated the old render, and the old deformation system, and still been able to compete. The problem is that no one at NT is thinking innovatively.



You obviously have much more faith in getting older systems to work like modern ones than I do. I see a need to throw out and replace systems that actually work in unison. I for one am glad to see PBR rendering coming to LightWave that actually work with the hair and volumetrics. Same with the deformation system- Layout has had a bottleneck for years and I don't see how they would fix that without replacing the way Layout reads geometry. Clearly they're setting the stage for allowing modeling to work in Layout and as I mentioned previously, past attempts in version 9 to do that with the old architecture didn't work. They even announced it ahead of time and had to scrap it and go back on what they said. Which I'm sure is part of the reason we get the silent treatment now. Undo is another reason things simply can't be updated, they have to replaced to allow for that functionality.

As you said, no way to know how things have changed until Next comes out. But my beef with LightWave development, especially over the last few versions is that I see a lot of it as low hanging fruit. Its about time some actual deep changes are made.

tyrot
10-21-2016, 02:28 PM
I remember dark days of Lightwave .. It was never darker than this ...

I fail to understand the logic behind this silence ... Just say it .. go on.. did you mess up ? no release till end of 2017? you just rewrite everything ? go on .. what the heck did happen ?

Prince Charming
10-21-2016, 03:33 PM
You obviously have much more faith in getting older systems to work like modern ones than I do. I see a need to throw out and replace systems that actually work in unison. I for one am glad to see PBR rendering coming to LightWave that actually work with the hair and volumetrics. Same with the deformation system- Layout has had a bottleneck for years and I don't see how they would fix that without replacing the way Layout reads geometry. Clearly they're setting the stage for allowing modeling to work in Layout and as I mentioned previously, past attempts in version 9 to do that with the old architecture didn't work. They even announced it ahead of time and had to scrap it and go back on what they said. Which I'm sure is part of the reason we get the silent treatment now. Undo is another reason things simply can't be updated, they have to replaced to allow for that functionality.

As you said, no way to know how things have changed until Next comes out. But my beef with LightWave development, especially over the last few versions is that I see a lot of it as low hanging fruit. Its about time some actual deep changes are made.
Its not that I have much faith in the old system... its that I don't have much faith in nt to complete the task they have set out to complete in a high quality manner. You have 0 clue about these "new" systems. It has already been stated by jarno that modeling tools in layout is not a guaranteed outcome of these updates. You have no clue what will eventually be passed off as a "new mesh system" or a "new rederer". I can almost guarantee that the new mesh system is actaully more like I said... an updated old mesh system.

Also, how do these new systems effect the undo problem, the lack of abilty to clone rigs, the issue of having plugins in 20 different places, or the over all poor tool and workflow quality? While a new mesh system and rederer SOUND nice. How many more years are we going to have to wait to get these other issues addressed?

It was definitely possible to use the old mesh system to produce much more usefull and elegant workflows than what they actually produced... what makes you think that the tools and workflows created with the "new" system will be any better.

I still stand by my statement. .. there are things that could have been exploited with the current system that would have made lightwave much more poweful under the current architecture. I will have to actually use the new systems before I can decide what was the better road to take. I have no idea what these new systems offer or how well the tools are implemented.

bobakabob
10-21-2016, 04:17 PM
By all means, please bring us all back to that tired strawman you've spent so long assembling without any opposition. And you're going to burn it now? Zzzzz. :rolleyes:

Sorry for blowing the whistle on your recent C4D campaign. You might be surprised that quite a few people here use and respect multiple apps (finances permitting) so don't really need the hard sell. I use Maya for work - but why waste valuable time barging into the C4D forums proclaiming how inferior Maxon's app is? Is it not a bit 90s?

hrgiger
10-21-2016, 04:31 PM
Also, how do these new systems effect the undo problem, the lack of abilty to clone rigs, the issue of having plugins in 20 different places, or the over all poor tool and workflow quality? While a new mesh system and rederer SOUND nice. How many more years are we going to have to wait to get these other issues addressed?

It was definitely possible to use the old mesh system to produce much more usefull and elegant workflows than what they actually produced... what makes you think that the tools and workflows created with the "new" system will be any better.



Well the point of restructuring (if that's what they're indeed doing and I'm not trying to argue if they have done it or havent' or will or won't) is so that all tools or systems inside of LW operate off of a common base instead of building functionality into each tool or system. I'm sure you could modify a tool to have a history or undo, but that would be an awful implementation. Think of the modeling tools that went into LightWave 11.5 that use a gizmo like the transform tool. Instead of simply being able to add a gizmo function in the SDK, they've put a gizmo into a single tool so that leaves every other modeling tool without a gizmo. Some modeling tools use modelers SDK while others are hard coded into modeler and that's part of the problem and why different tools are inconsistent throughout LW. Every tool would have to be rewritten or at the very least altered to be able to use a common gizmo. So when it comes to Undo, you're looking at the same problem. It would/will be a major undertaking to implement a universal Undo system in LW. I'm hoping they're planning on that but there's no way to know at this point.

I can't really comment or dispute a mesh system that we haven't seen or used yet so its pointless to discuss. But I do agree with Rob's statement from the first blog post where he stated if they want to truly modernize LightWave, then the geo engine and renderer need addressed. Now having used rendering in Unreal and Substance, I can't advocate for merely improving on LightWave's renderer. LightWave's renderer might have been the bomb 10 years ago but there are better ways to do things these days and having a renderer actually integrated with LightWave's other systems like volumetrics or fibers and having preview and final rendering one in the same is pretty good reason to replace the renderer IMO.

People have accused NT of piling features onto an aging architecture and I've pretty much felt the same way. Frankly, I'm glad to see new systems put in.

Prince Charming
10-21-2016, 06:02 PM
Well the point of restructuring (if that's what they're indeed doing and I'm not trying to argue if they have done it or havent' or will or won't) is so that all tools or systems inside of LW operate off of a common base instead of building functionality into each tool or system. I'm sure you could modify a tool to have a history or undo, but that would be an awful implementation. Think of the modeling tools that went into LightWave 11.5 that use a gizmo like the transform tool. Instead of simply being able to add a gizmo function in the SDK, they've put a gizmo into a single tool so that leaves every other modeling tool without a gizmo. Some modeling tools use modelers SDK while others are hard coded into modeler and that's part of the problem and why different tools are inconsistent throughout LW. Every tool would have to be rewritten or at the very least altered to be able to use a common gizmo. So when it comes to Undo, you're looking at the same problem. It would/will be a major undertaking to implement a universal Undo system in LW. I'm hoping they're planning on that but there's no way to know at this point.

I can't really comment or dispute a mesh system that we haven't seen or used yet so its pointless to discuss. But I do agree with Rob's statement from the first blog post where he stated if they want to truly modernize LightWave, then the geo engine and renderer need addressed. Now having used rendering in Unreal and Substance, I can't advocate for merely improving on LightWave's renderer. LightWave's renderer might have been the bomb 10 years ago but there are better ways to do things these days and having a renderer actually integrated with LightWave's other systems like volumetrics or fibers and having preview and final rendering one in the same is pretty good reason to replace the renderer IMO.

People have accused NT of piling features onto an aging architecture and I've pretty much felt the same way. Frankly, I'm glad to see new systems put in.


I did write a long response to this, but it failed when I submitted it.
Not going to rewrite the whole thing, but...

I am fine with new render as long as it does not lose any functionality. I can do some pretty complex stuff with surfacing and nodes... as long as I can still do these things i am all for a new render.

I would be interested to know how you think a mesh system and a renderer will have any effect on undos, or the crap referencing system? I never read that was to be a benefit of the new mesh system. Where did you read that at?

One thing is for sure... I cant wait to see what they produce... in a similar way that it is hard to look away from a train wreck ;)

" Frankly, I'm glad to see new systems put in"
Where did you see them at? The blog??? LOL :)

erikals
10-21-2016, 06:18 PM
rewriting the mesh engine was a must. there's no doubt about that.

i'm not concerned regarding what LW2017, LW2018 will bring. nothing we users can do about it anyway if it fails.


and now.... a movie.

hrgiger
10-21-2016, 06:49 PM
I would be interested to know how you think a mesh system and a renderer will have any effect on undos, or the crap referencing system? I never read that was to be a benefit of the new mesh system. Where did you read that at?



That's not what I said. I said that an undo system would be a major undertaking and not an example of something you would write into a tool, it has to be system wide and that means not just improving tools and workflow like you suggested is all LW needs, it means pretty much rewriting foundational aspects of LightWave code.

So you're suggesting that the renderer, the volumetrics, the geometry engine are not new systems then, that they're just calling them new? Yes, I'm sure that they haven't been able to improve deformation speed over the last 10 years at all but now we're seeing 2 to 4 times faster deformations in the example given in the blog post on deformations but I'm sure that's just an improved workflow right and nothing completely new?

MAUROCOR
10-21-2016, 09:14 PM
I would like to repeat something that a friend told me not so long ago: " letīs keep our faith!"
I know this silence is terrible but we still have the LW forum, LW facebook and LW newsletter. It is a sign things didnīt stop! We have some hints about deep changes and what LW next will have. LWG3D told us they are working very hard.
Everybody is free to add new apps to their pipeline or to leave.
I know we would deserve more but as we tell here in my country, that is what we have for today, so letīs wait and see what happen.

samurai_x
10-21-2016, 09:15 PM
I remember dark days of Lightwave .. It was never darker than this ...

I fail to understand the logic behind this silence ... Just say it .. go on.. did you mess up ? no release till end of 2017? you just rewrite everything ? go on .. what the heck did happen ?

And we are losing really talented people as the years go by.
Pooby, stooch, etc. Guys with real talent who push lightwave limits have moved on.
Devs like worley gone. Third party software support is dwindling.
Thank gawd rebelhill is still with lw and his character toolset and Lwcad still makes lightwave usable in viz work.

hrgiger
10-22-2016, 03:09 AM
And we are losing really talented people as the years go by.
Pooby, stooch, etc. Guys with real talent who push lightwave limits have moved on.


And like I said earlier, a lot of people still hold older LW licenses like Paul (Pooby) does. He still lurks here from time to time. There's still opportunity for LW3DG to gain back users if they make proper changes to LW over time. I talk to him occasionally about what is going on (or not going on) with LW development.

You could say I moved on from Silo a long time ago but if anyone chose to update it at some time in the future, I'd definitely take another look at it as I still have my license.

jwiede
10-22-2016, 04:00 AM
You could say I moved on from Silo a long time ago but if anyone chose to update it at some time in the future, I'd definitely take another look at it as I still have my license.

You'd consider supporting Nevercenter again? Even after the whole thing around their "renewed interest" just long enough to release onto app stores and Steam as if Silo were an actively-developed product (as well as what they did w.r.t. customer support forums), only to disappear yet again?

erikals
10-22-2016, 04:34 AM
And we are losing really talented people as the years go by.
Pooby, stooch, etc. Guys with real talent who push lightwave limits have moved on.
Devs like worley gone. Third party software support is dwindling.
Thank gawd rebelhill is still with lw and his character toolset and Lwcad still makes lightwave usable in viz work.

seriously? i think your looking at this with a too dark shadow.
i could comment further on this quote, but i'll refrain.
lighten up, it sounds like LightWave has a date with Doomsday.  http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

samurai_x
10-22-2016, 04:46 AM
I would never go back to a company like nevercenter, pmg, etc or any company that is like it.
If newtek didn't make me tons of money I would have dropped lightwave after core. Many people did drop lightwave after core. You would think they learned something from it..


erikals, stop posting your smileys. They're being flagged as malware.

erikals
10-22-2016, 05:23 AM
lovely.  http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

prometheus
10-22-2016, 05:54 AM
lovely.  http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

Weird erikals, when I open a forum thread with your avatar image, I get a virus warning from my avast..:) may just be a case of false warning from avast...but weird, donīt think I have come across that issue before.



I would never go back to a company like nevercenter, pmg, etc or any company that is like it.
If newtek didn't make me tons of money I would have dropped lightwave after core. Many people did drop lightwave after core. You would think they learned something from it..


erikals, stop posting your smileys. They're being flagged as malware.
Ahh..I didnīt notice you too having that issue..

erikals
10-22-2016, 05:57 AM
when I open a forum thread with your avatar image, I get a virus warning
that would be correct, i'm indeed a virus typing on a keyboard.

(hence the short sentences, it takes forever to type... .. .)

prometheus
10-22-2016, 06:02 AM
that would be correct, i'm indeed a virus typing on a keyboard.

I figured..thatīs why you produce so many vids too :)

I agree..I see no immediate doomsday sign on lightwave, things need to be put in perspective. we got 3rd powers tools as well, and it is major changes going on..so one needs to take that in account.

hrgiger
10-22-2016, 06:58 AM
You'd consider supporting Nevercenter again? Even after the whole thing around their "renewed interest" just long enough to release onto app stores and Steam as if Silo were an actively-developed product (as well as what they did w.r.t. customer support forums), only to disappear yet again?

Sure if they released some nice new updates. You never buy software for what it might do in the future, but if it offers something you can use today. And the software is so cheap, just like pmg, its not exactly a huge outlay of cash that I have to worry about what they may or may not do in the future.

prometheus
10-22-2016, 08:15 AM
that would be correct, i'm indeed a virus typing on a keyboard.

(hence the short sentences, it takes forever to type... .. .)

would be nice with a good voice controlled keyboard/computer when writing..itīs fun to use voice recognition on the cellular phones, and search and get wiki answers back in voice too :) I canīt stand typing on mobiles, the display letters are too small for my fingers really with a samsung 3.

On my workstation..I am glad I actually learned at the age of 9-10 years old to use proper fingering on keyboard techniques, my father was very skilled and fast since he worked as a criminal inspector, and he taught me with a gun pointed to my head (if you believe that) and a cover over the keyboards, so I had to kineticly memories the keys, so I can be pretty fast writing..and sometimes just too fast so the letters doesnīt keep up with my writing speed, thereīs a downside to this..I tend to write more words than I really need.

prometheus
10-22-2016, 08:26 AM
would be nice with a good voice controlled keyboard/computer when writing..itīs fun to use voice recognition on the cellular phones, and search and get wiki answers back in voice too :) I canīt stand typing on mobiles, the display letters are too small for my fingers really with a samsung 3.

On my workstation..I am glad I actually learned at the age of 9-10 years old to use proper fingering on keyboard techniques, my father was very skilled and fast since he worked as a criminal inspector, and he taught me with a gun pointed to my head (if you believe that) and a cover over the keyboards, so I had to kineticly memories the keys, so I can be pretty fast writing..and sometimes just too fast so the letters doesnīt keep up with my writing speed, thereīs a downside to this..I tend to write more words than I really need.

Just have to...sorry for the off topics, but isnīt so much here off topic anyway, so a little drop in the ocean of offtopics doesnīt matter hey :D



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hShY6xZWVGE

erikals
10-22-2016, 10:11 AM
MicroSoft just had a breakthrough though, and DeepLearning is going to make Ai much better.

Microsoft’s Voice Recognition Technology Almost as Accurate as Humans
https://news.developer.nvidia.com/microsofts-voice-recognition-technology-almost-as-accurate-as-humans

edit: still doubt those "Hello?" errors will vanish... :beerchug:



On my workstation..I am glad I actually learned at the age of 9-10 years old to use proper fingering on keyboard techniques, my father was very skilled and fast since he worked as a criminal inspector, and he taught me with a gun pointed to my head (if you believe that) and a cover over the keyboards, so I had to kineticly memories the keys, so I can be pretty fast writing..and sometimes just too fast so the letters doesnīt keep up with my writing speed, thereīs a downside to this..I tend to write more words than I really need.

ah, didn't know, the long sentences makes sense now. if you look at my posts i'm pretty much the opposite. every year i vote for the "KeyWords Only" party.

prometheus
10-22-2016, 12:12 PM
MicroSoft just had a breakthrough though, and DeepLearning is going to make Ai much better.

Microsoft’s Voice Recognition Technology Almost as Accurate as Humans
https://news.developer.nvidia.com/microsofts-voice-recognition-technology-almost-as-accurate-as-humans

edit: still doubt those "Hello?" errors will vanish... :beerchug:




ah, didn't know, the long sentences makes sense now. if you look at my posts i'm pretty much the opposite. every year i vote for the "KeyWords Only" party.
Good you noticed too, I am aware of my issues of long writing, canīt help it ..so fun to write when you donīt have to think or look at the keys..canīt say and write more about it,
The lightwave team is the masters of keeping it short :) but thatīs all I have to say about that.

erikals
10-22-2016, 12:15 PM
canīt say and write more about it, thatīs all I have to say about that.
LoL.... haha... it took me 30 seconds just to write this sentence. (and i typed as fast as i could)
(FACT)

prometheus
10-22-2016, 01:21 PM
LoL.... haha... it took me 30 seconds just to write this sentence. (and i typed as fast as i could)
(FACT)

depends on what you have to formulate in your saying as well, some words a bit more complex, and I would definitely write faster in swedish, I got a faulty keyboard as well so it screws up some letters from time to time, I got a spare keyboard I may need to plugin, though it has a bit of too plastic feel so it feels weird when typing.

You could test your ranking...
http://10fastfingers.com/typing-test/english

I was better than 82% of the last 24 hours users, with my faulty keyboard that didnīt respond and I had to go back and rewrite, itīs better to check words per minute, I got 58 words per minute with my crappy keyboard and in english, so I lost pace with some faulty keys.

Actually..swedish can be harder sometimes, since the å,ä,ö letters is there to make it harder, I should be faster if I had a job that requires constant writing, as it is now..even though I learned at an early age, I do not practice it enough, not more than actually here on the forums perhaps.
so if the forum isnīt good for retreiving information, it certainly may help keep you up to date with your typing skills, I have to give the forums credit for that.

prometheus
10-22-2016, 01:42 PM
Must add, many people may reach 90-100 which is fast..and probably above normal, I saw somewhere that the world record may be 290 words per minute.
this was my first test really, with the crappy keyboard, so with warming up, and replacing keyboard, I should be able to reach at least 90 I suspect.

erikals
10-22-2016, 01:49 PM
48%...

:)

jwiede
10-22-2016, 02:03 PM
Sure if they released some nice new updates. You never buy software for what it might do in the future, but if it offers something you can use today.

The issue I'm pointing out has nothing to do with future development, it has to do with what the companies already have done to customers.

kadri
10-22-2016, 02:54 PM
that would be correct, i'm indeed a virus typing on a keyboard.

(hence the short sentences, it takes forever to type... .. .)

Erikals just curious i get a warning too with Avast (not that i trust it too much) ?

erikals
10-22-2016, 05:53 PM
hm, i have no idea..

from the Avatar itself > http://forums.newtek.com/image.php?u=8814&dateline=1443881636

or from images from > http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

there has been a hacker attack against many big US servers yesterday/today, not sure if that has something to do with it.

jwiede
10-22-2016, 05:55 PM
hm, i have no idea..

from the Avatar itself > http://forums.newtek.com/image.php?u=8814&dateline=1443881636

or from images from > http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

The only one I've seen is from the GIF at your site, not the avatar. That said, I haven't seen any for some time (after I whitelisted your site w.r.t. the specific warning).

Also, have you checked recently that your domain isn't on any official "domain blacklists" (spamhaus, DNSRBL)?

kadri
10-22-2016, 06:01 PM
Yes Avast even doesn't allow me to open your webpage.
Looks like the GIF to me too.

hrgiger
10-22-2016, 08:48 PM
The issue I'm pointing out has nothing to do with future development, it has to do with what the companies already have done to customers.

Even though I sense this could be a circular argument, I'll just say I understand what you're referring to but I don't see how that affects someone making a decision to buy something they might be currently offering. If a software maker puts out an update with tools I think I could have use for, I base my decision on that, no matter what they might do moving forward even if they never put out another update again. I mean, I certainly was not happy with the way NT handled CORE but I have judged each update since then on its own merits and not what they've done in the past.

samurai_x
10-22-2016, 09:10 PM
Lets do a pmg dare to share part 3.

djwaterman
10-23-2016, 04:01 AM
Actually for what it was, that was a pretty good deal at the time.

spherical
10-23-2016, 02:01 PM
or from images from > http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

there has been a hacker attack against many big US servers yesterday/today, not sure if that has something to do with it.

This looks like the long-standing GIF exploit, where PHP code is contained in the image file. Question is, why are you loading a smiley from your site, when there are plenty of them available from the forum itself; loaded by a shortcode.

erikals
10-23-2016, 04:10 PM
hm, thanks for the heads up, could be...

i'm using ahk so just an old habit mostly. but at the moment it seems it's best to shut down the whole site.

Prince Charming
10-23-2016, 05:47 PM
Since we are off the topic of Lightwave nuggets I would like to share this picture I took today on my Galaxy s4. I think it is the coolest picture I have ever taken. Wish I had a better camera when I took it. I really like the lens flare a lot... I can see why they are so over used in movies now a days.

rustythe1
10-24-2016, 02:00 AM
so now you know where the ark is,

MarcusM
10-24-2016, 03:10 AM
Lens flares? This is my cat original photo ;]

134901

prometheus
10-24-2016, 07:26 AM
Lens flares? This is my cat original photo ;]

134901

that one is really cool.

gar26lw
10-24-2016, 05:20 PM
man this place is dead, its like walking into a bar in some middle of nowhere ghost town

js33
10-24-2016, 06:01 PM
man this place is dead, its like walking into a bar in some middle of nowhere ghost town


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFW6yUlgGdI

hrgiger
10-24-2016, 06:50 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFW6yUlgGdI

Well ironically, tumbleweeds exist to bring new life.