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erikals
09-20-2016, 01:10 PM
Hi,

anyone knows if it's possible to load FiberFX guides into Strand Modeler?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsqLZwM_-yk

prometheus
09-20-2016, 03:15 PM
Hi,

anyone knows if it's possible to load FiberFX guides into Strand Modeler?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsqLZwM_-yk

I donīt think so, it doesnīt load in ffs saved fiberfx from layout..and that wouldnīt be editing guides anyway.
you could right click on your object in fiberfx layout, and polygonize, then you have to save that layer and reload in to modeler layer, and from there you could edit the strands by strand tool or other tools.

erikals
09-20-2016, 03:46 PM
thanks, yeah, seems that is missing.

certainly can understand many complains about FiberFX. one has to know what to do / what not to.

i can wrestle FiberFX, but it's certainly a lot back and forth.
Modeler<>StrandTool<>Layout back and forth, back and forth.

LWG has port all FiberFX tools into Layout imo.
until then... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

prometheus
09-20-2016, 04:09 PM
thanks, yeah, seems that is missing.

certainly can understand many complains about FiberFX. one has to know what to do / what not to.

i can wrestle FiberFX, but it's certainly a lot back and forth.
Modeler<>StrandTool<>Layout back and forth, back and forth.

LWG has port all FiberFX tools into Layout imo.
until then... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

Yes..neither strandmodeler or edit guides in layout is really that nice to work with...extremly crashy as well if you switch back and forth with modeler.
regarding creating strands in layout first with fiberfx, if you polygonize them and send to modeler, if you happen to have to low segments, just select all strands and use aw divide edge on all at once in edge mode, and set number of divisions.

for deforming, move tool with radial falloff is probably the best working (not point radial) the downside to that is you can only deform push the guides within that fallof that is static till you right click move it somewhere else..and point radial requires exact picking of a strands point while you can move the falloff freely, but that is no good to constantly picking a point on a strand...so they direct modeling tools is quite bad for this, and you are left with fiberfx strand modeler..which you canīt loat any strands and guides created in layout etc..itīs all mostly a loose loose situation with these tools, when deforming/pushing guides, you would also like a way to deflect avoid with collsions, like with blender you have that option so when you push the strands it wonīt go in to the model.

sensei had some hair modeling tools that looked nice..it just vanished though, and I donīt think he has them for sale even.
It would be nice if the sculpting tools from 3rd powers could work on any guide, including cutting them properly..we do not have a cut tool for modeler (senseis might have had) and in layout it really sucks...blenders are excellent in that area.

Though I would prefer the acess and module of fiberfx to start with, rather than blenders which has no hair..it is sort of hidden in the particle fx system where you need to change to hair..and blender does not have as good opengl presentation of hair I think nor the same styling options as fiberfx styling panel has(though I still have to evaluate all the styling effects you can get by all the forces selfinteracting on blender hair particles., what does better is combing though.

erikals
09-20-2016, 04:30 PM
edit: correction, looks like i can load fibers from a layer, and then convert it to guides in Strand Modeler.
nice to be wrong about that one. http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif


...extremly crashy as well if you switch back and forth with modeler.
yes, LW ain't a fan of that...


itīs all mostly a loose loose situation...
hehe. http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/047.gif yeah, sorta, i was surprised to see that i could get decent renders though.
so if one can get past the tweaking...


sensei had some hair modeling tools that looked nice.
sort of, i had a look at them today actually, (the video previews he made way-way back, i have a small LightWave library here)
but those too are nowhere close to the ease of creating guides in for example Blender.

once i "crack" the LightWave FiberFX-Creating-Guides code, things will be better.  http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/smilies/arteest.gif

Greenlaw
09-20-2016, 05:15 PM
edit: correction, looks like i can load fibers from a layer, and then convert it to guides in Strand Modeler.
nice to be wrong about that one. http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif



I was just about to answer that but looks like you got it figured out. :)

I haven't used FiberFX Modeler in ages--at this stage, it might be considered 'legacy' but it still has it's uses. I think the last time I used it was for an old man's eyebrows--I cut out the eyebrow polys as a base to Grow from and then combed the guides in FiberFX Modeler. Then, after I clicked OK, I used Strand Tool to edit a few crazy wiry strands to give them some 'character'.

I really haven't had much trouble using Edit Guides in the current release. I can still crash it sometimes but it's actually way more stable than it used to be.

Sigh! I need to get back to this stuff at home. I did use FiberFX for some characters and props at work early this year...it was pretty minor use but we were in a hurry and it did the trick.

Greenlaw
09-20-2016, 05:17 PM
Oh, feel free to ask any questions btw. I haven't been very active in the forums lately but I still skim the threads regularly.

erikals
09-20-2016, 07:23 PM
looks like you got it figured out.
yes, did a test run over here and made it import. http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

i like FiberFX for some stuff, but it's limited. kinda tricky / time consuming finding the 'gotchas'   :°
"kind of" getting the hang of it now.


feel free to ask any questions btw.
thank you! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif
my next "hack" is to create feathers (outch!) that one will be challenging for sure...
there is the Khalid Feather trick, but i'm trying more accurate and faster ways about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOJG9L5S27I

all help is welcome. thanks again.

erikals
09-20-2016, 07:29 PM
did try "Strand Modeler" for short fur, here were my findings... (loong video)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWnZVVwyqZc

erikals
09-22-2016, 08:57 AM
it's strange, but i'm actually finding FiberFX Layout Edit Guides worse... as it's no way to tweak in SubD mode... :/

any ideas on that one?
https://img.youtube.com/vi/PcKipBV7Iu4/maxresdefault.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcKipBV7Iu4

prometheus
09-22-2016, 10:16 AM
weird..havenīt thought of that before actually, mostly used it on non subpatched I think, itīs the same in 11.6.
seems you canīt use a dummy freezed and then replace with subpatched version either, it will screw up the guides, I reckon you need a model that by default is metaformed/divided good enough, and instead lower subpatch level in layout.
I was looking at Khalids feather on his bird, and I thought that was subpatched, but it could just as well have been metaformed/divided a lot.

Greenlaw
09-22-2016, 10:59 AM
It's not a bug. AFAIK, Edit Guides has never recognized sub-patch levels. I think this is because the Edit Guides guides need to be based on actual geometry. In other words, the base needs to be constant because styling is based on Vmaps, which don't change when you change Sub-D levels.

For example, if you grew guides from a sub-patch surface and put a lot of work into styling it, all your hard work may get screwed up when you reduce the sub-patch level (guides will disappear) or when you increase it (un-styled guides will appear between the styled ones) because LightWave isn't going to interpolate changes to your vmaps. Normally, you really don't want either of those things happening.

Technically speaking, working from the base geometry shouldn't matter because the guides are just that, guides. They don't represent the actual FiberFX fibers or the number of fibers that will be rendered, they just define where the fibers will appear and how they will lay over the surface. And if they're growing from the base, they'll always be valid no matter how high you increase the sub-D level.

Obviously, if you prefer to work with the lowest possible mesh resolution there is a downside to this, as you won't have very many guides available to do really detailed fiber styling. I'm not sure there's anything you can do about that except to be sure to model the mesh to optimize guides placement. In general, however, you typically only need to increase detail in a few areas for that kind of control.

If you just need detailed guides in certain areas, I sometimes prefer to do is prepare a separate pieces of mesh specifically isolated and up-rezzed for these Edit guides, and then I might use any of the tricks available in Layout to make the mesh 'stick to' and follow the character--like using one of the Meta plugins or maybe just weighting it properly and using the rig's bones.

Alternatively, you can have guides that don't grow from the vertices, by using Modeler or a third-party program like ZBrush FiberMesh. These tools can place the guides arbitrarily over the surface. However, there are several trade-offs with this approach, mostly involving vmaps.

If you don't use Edit Guides, here's some of the things you might be dealing with:

1. Externally modeled guides (including those created using regular Modeler tools) won't normally won't be able to pull color textures from the surface's UV map like Edit Guides guides to. This is because Edit Guides is directly bound to the surface's UV map. There are workarounds for making FiberMesh Guides pull from the same UV and the easiest way is to use the DrainBGVmap plugin (x32 only) or the Weighter 2 plugin (x64) from Liberty. (Note: Weighter does not work properly with 2015.3, so you'll need to use an older version of LightWave.)

2. You may need to generate a proper weight map for the guides to get them to deform properly with the mesh. You can use the above plug-ins to transfer weights to the guides.

3. If you have morphs in your mesh, these won't normally be available to the guides. You'll either have to manually create the morphs for the guides or use the vmap transfer plugins. (Man, these plugins really are handy aren't they? In my humble opinion, LW3DG REALLY needs to get something that does this in Modeler natively. I've only been asking that for about five years though.) :p

4. You may still have problems if you're using Sub-patch geometry because the guides will obviously not match when you change levels. If your weights work properly, you might possibly not notice but I wouldn't count on it. Depending on the design, you'll probably find the main problems areas will be under the shoulders and inside the pelvis.

These issues are avoided using Edit Guides because the guides are bound directly to the mesh. Even when you use a higher sub-d level, the guides are still going to follow the mesh even if they're not themselves 'dividing'.

Something like that anyway. This is just stuff I noticed and figured out a few years ago when I was doing a lot more work in FiberFX. It's not official info so there may be some inaccuracies in the above but it works for me. I might come back and revise some of what I wrote later if I think I of something else or if I made a mistake. (It happens. A lot actually.)

Hope this info helps.

FWIW, I'm still working with FiberFX occasionally at work, and I have a personal project where I'm starting to use it again. If I learn something new about FiberFX, good or bad, I'll let you know.

-----

BTW, I hope this thread doesn't degenerate into another FiberFX 'hate fest'. I'm not interested in arguing about the tool, just discussing its use and sharing tips and tricks. (Let's see how long that lasts.) :rolleyes:

Greenlaw
09-22-2016, 11:10 AM
One more thing: Remember, there's nothing preventing you from using a combination of techniques. I've had assignments where I used Edit Guides, FFX Modeler guides, and 'hair' curves imported from Modo all on the same character, so don't get too hung up on trying to use just one tool for everything. It would be nice but I find that that's almost never possible. (And I'm not just talking about FiberFX...that's pretty much with every program I use.) :)

erikals
09-22-2016, 11:25 AM
That's a lot of Good info.   http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/king.gif

thinking, it might be that using Bias maps is a solution to some of these animation/morphs related problems?

Greenlaw
09-22-2016, 12:31 PM
Maybe. I've played a little bit with creating bias maps using the Strand Modeler in Modeler but had mixed results. That was a very long time ago though. More recently, I think Kryslin was doing some interesting stuff with Bias maps so you might ask him about it (I think he was making his own tool for editing it). I think Bias maps are really mean for defining direction though, not displacement so I'm not sure if they apply for Morph/Anim problems. (Sorry, I might be wrong about that...I'm not really that technically knowledgeable about these things.)

BTW, (you probably know this already) that's basically what Edit Guides is doing when you create a Style with it--it's generating a bias map. This is why you need to save the object after using Edit Guides. Many new users seem to miss that bit in the manual and wonder why they keep losing their settings. When you edit with Edit Guides, it needs to be treated the same as when you make a surface change.

I'm not sure there's any way to access that map for editing though (not that I would know what to do with it.) :p

erikals
09-22-2016, 03:51 PM
yes, i do think it could work, at least when testing Bias with morphs it seemed to morph fine (see video)

as for editing Bias maps, i'm finding that a bit difficult, it's almost like painting a normal map, and that's just plain impossible (it seems)
curious how Kryselin went about it, i really should ask him...

indeed, i save just before launching Strand Modeler, and just after.

the bias map "Default_normalmap_0" can be tweaked in Vertex Paint, but alas, impossible to tweak correctly.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSYu6_TkH3I

Greenlaw
09-22-2016, 04:31 PM
I think he was working on getting bias to simulate the 'Auto-comb' feature in Sasquatch. Let me check on that...he mentioned it in a PM discussion we had awhile back.

Anyway, in Sasquatch, Auto-comb (I think that's what it was called) let you pick a point on your mesh and somehow it made the fibers flow away from that point intelligently. The trick wasn't necessarily accurate but it was quick to set up and, in a pinch, the result looked convincing enough for many types of creatures.

If he figured out how to do that with FiberFX, that would be a super nice thing to have.

erikals
09-22-2016, 05:25 PM
Auto-comb
ah, yeah, well i think that is slightly different, it might very well be quite similar to creating a directional bias in Strand Modeler, and then use the Bias only.

i was surprised to see it looked quite alright, however, the eye areas are the tricky part.

FiberFX actually works quite good (though very slow to comb) in many cases. the real challenge from what i've encountered is when combing short hair.

like > http://www.cgfeedback.com/cgfeedback/attachment.php?attachmentid=27029&d=1426246948

erikals
09-22-2016, 07:21 PM
testing, for short hair, so far, i found the bias method to be the best technique. needs production-testing though...

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=134543&d=1474593653

134543

Kryslin
09-23-2016, 12:16 AM
I'm trying to duplicate the functionality of Sasquatch's Bias Combing. For those who don't have a copy of the venerable plugin, it's where you choose a surface or a part, and the plugin pushes the generated fur away from that surface; how much it's pushed depends on the strength setting. You could likewise do the same for the world -Y axis, to simulate gravity, Creatively mixing the two, and you've got a quick and dirty combing solution, that 90% of the time, worked.

It takes a bit of vector math to get the result.

Essentially, it works like this:
Once you have a vertex to comb away from, you take each vertex in your selection, and generate a vector to your vertex. From there, you find the perpendicular vector to the vertex normal. From here, you can do this two ways : You can add the vertex normal and the perpendicular vector (multiplied by strength) together, or you can blend between the vertex normal and the perpendicular vector. Normalize your result. Once there, you can use each component of the vector in a vertex RGB color map, because this is what a bias map is. I typically generate 2 bias maps - one where the domain of the components is from -1...1, and the remapped version, which is from 0...1.

I used to go through a whole bunch of conditional tests, to make sure that things pointed in the right direction, but I got very consistent results when I simply tossed the whole mess out. I might re-introduce one test, because it's relatively simple to do.

The results work, though I do need to figure out a way to blend in gravity ( and blend out the bias combing, for those fibers at the vertical...).

erikals
09-23-2016, 03:43 AM
Kryselin, it would be very cool to see it in action, in a video or such   http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

i'm testing more the Bias route for short fur, and i'm getting good results so far...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaLpj3dJ_Os

Kryslin
09-23-2016, 04:21 PM
I've been using it for short, dense coats of fur, like one would find on a lynx, cougar, hyena, or cheetah. And there's not much to see in operation - select surface, press "OK", watch progress bar. :)

Getting things looking good is what takes time.

The next confusing thing is length of fur - I've used the fur bar (a flat plane, with a weight map going from 0 -> 100%, and compare the length of the fur against a grid. I've never been able to get more than 100mm off of the 'length' nodal input using a weight map, with the scale set at 100%

erikals
09-23-2016, 05:29 PM
hope you get it going and that you sell it...http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

crossing fingers. http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/king.gif


by the way, for those of you using Strand Modeler, here are the Main Gotchas'  (there are more, but these are the main ones)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6WxjWi0gv8

Kryslin
09-23-2016, 10:01 PM
I think I've posted some of my test resuilts, but I'll post them here as well...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/Kryslin/Renders/th_ffxquickcomb1_zpsi767xnsb.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Kryslin/media/Renders/ffxquickcomb1_zpsi767xnsb.jpg.html)
A quick test of the bias combing generated by my lscript.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/Kryslin/Renders/th_ffx-110715_zpsrzd65wwx.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Kryslin/media/Renders/ffx-110715_zpsrzd65wwx.jpg.html)
5 layers of FiberFX. The base fur layer is bias combed. This image rendered like a slug - around 10 minutes. It also closely matches the version of this character done with Sasquatch.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/Kryslin/Renders/th_mel_15apr15_2_zpsw7wymwyd.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Kryslin/media/Renders/mel_15apr15_2_zpsw7wymwyd.jpg.html)http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/Kryslin/Renders/th_ffx_milestone_zpsizyqjgo7.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Kryslin/media/Renders/ffx_milestone_zpsizyqjgo7.jpg.html)
Daz Studio's Melody, with bias combing, generated by my first generation bias combing tool.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/Kryslin/Kryslin%20Mk%20II/Onyx%20and%20Snowflake/th_wip_onyx_01Jul16_zpsjxj2pq1l.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Kryslin/media/Kryslin%20Mk%20II/Onyx%20and%20Snowflake/wip_onyx_01Jul16_zpsjxj2pq1l.jpg.html)
Another, more complicated model, again, with bias combing generated by my second generation tool.

My biggest problem with FiberFX is speed, or lack thereof. some of those images took <4 minutes, but a couple took >10 minutes.

prometheus
09-23-2016, 11:54 PM
I think I've posted some of my test resuilts, but I'll post them here as well...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/Kryslin/Renders/th_ffxquickcomb1_zpsi767xnsb.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Kryslin/media/Renders/ffxquickcomb1_zpsi767xnsb.jpg.html)
A quick test of the bias combing generated by my lscript.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/Kryslin/Renders/th_ffx-110715_zpsrzd65wwx.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Kryslin/media/Renders/ffx-110715_zpsrzd65wwx.jpg.html)
5 layers of FiberFX. The base fur layer is bias combed. This image rendered like a slug - around 10 minutes. It also closely matches the version of this character done with Sasquatch.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/Kryslin/Renders/th_mel_15apr15_2_zpsw7wymwyd.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Kryslin/media/Renders/mel_15apr15_2_zpsw7wymwyd.jpg.html)http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/Kryslin/Renders/th_ffx_milestone_zpsizyqjgo7.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Kryslin/media/Renders/ffx_milestone_zpsizyqjgo7.jpg.html)
Daz Studio's Melody, with bias combing, generated by my first generation bias combing tool.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/Kryslin/Kryslin%20Mk%20II/Onyx%20and%20Snowflake/th_wip_onyx_01Jul16_zpsjxj2pq1l.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Kryslin/media/Kryslin%20Mk%20II/Onyx%20and%20Snowflake/wip_onyx_01Jul16_zpsjxj2pq1l.jpg.html)
Another, more complicated model, again, with bias combing generated by my second generation tool.

My biggest problem with FiberFX is speed, or lack thereof. some of those images took <4 minutes, but a couple took >10 minutes.


Is it just me? Boy how slow photobucket is, not just for those or this day, it always seems slow.

erikals
09-24-2016, 02:49 AM
i really liked the Daz Melody, the bias combing is very nice for being an auto-generation.


My biggest problem with FiberFX is speed
i'm finding it to be quite fast, but of course GI is a No Go. also haven't been using 'Volume' mode that much.

LW2017 has a new render engine, so i'd expect changes in that regard.

erikals
09-24-2016, 09:00 AM
just inspiration...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvR8eMiNpv8

prometheus
09-25-2016, 11:48 PM
I was fiddling a bit more with curves and fiberfx.
As we should know, curves with fiberfx applied renders without conversion to polychains (11.6 and up), so if you just need static images and no need for dynamics or collision that can be good when deforming the spline curves instead of chains.
But I also managed to make curves dynamic and working in layout with the help of ik booster, so you can modify them in layout similar to the strand tool..but with ik booster, and also apply bone dynamics on them, there is some things to be aware of.

What I did...
1. particle clone a spline curve on one half of a cap to get a lot of curves..then deform them a little.
2. convert to skelegons...but copy the curves from those to another layer, the skelegons should not be in the same layer as the curves, why you may ask? well...if you convert skelegons in the same layer as the curve..the fiberfx system can not see the curves properly..so they wonīt show up in that mix, but if you have your skelegons in a separate layer, you could just then select the curve layer and enter bones for it..and choose use bones from the skelegon layer, that should work, you may have to update the visibility of fiberfx for it to follow the bones though.

Also...make sure to add the custom object (show curve) for curves to show in opengl.

May have to record all this as well.

prometheus
09-25-2016, 11:51 PM
Hey..another thing..
I noticed that I could edit the curves in layout as guides with fiberfx edit guides, that I didnīt know of

erikals
09-25-2016, 11:55 PM
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?151606-using-clothfx-editfx-to-deform-strands-small-clip-tute

that's pretty cool, didn't know either, just saw your video   :)

it's yet another "hacking LightWave" trick.. LoL... :hey:

might use it... :)

prometheus
09-26-2016, 12:15 AM
that's pretty cool, didn't know either, just saw your video   :)

it's yet another "hacking LightWave" trick.. LoL... :hey:

might use it... :)


yes..but that vid wasnīt what I mentioned here, that vid was just editing by clothfx, a completly different thing what I mentioned about using curves and skelegons and ik booster, as well as editing spline curves directly with Layout fibefx edit guides.

prometheus
09-26-2016, 12:30 AM
some images, though it was a quick mockup and not really styled properly, no face either, and the fill in looks awful:D..but better than my reality :)

No polychains..just spline curves, it may also be better to simply grow strands in fiberfx modeler strand modeler, then convert those to curves by toggle curves on off.

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=134587&d=1474871158

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=134588&d=1474871176

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=134589&d=1474871224

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=134590&d=1474871239

erikals
09-26-2016, 12:38 AM
oh yes, i know, forgot to reply to the IKB dynamics method.

that might very well be an idea as also, good tip. the IKB chains are often quite friendly to tweak.
good idea. :)

erikals
09-26-2016, 07:37 AM
a few notes from Jason regarding my FiberFX 'Bugs'


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6WxjWi0gv8




Jason B

Thanks for the video. I'd just like to clarify some things, Although some of the bugs you found are bugs a lot of them are not actually bugs. For example here is a modified list of all your bugs below. Hope this helps

Bug2 - Edge Qty 1 > Guides is a No Go. - In 2015.3 this give out an error saying the following (grow some fibers first this will convert them to guides)

Bug3 - Opposite Rotation from Modeler - Actually it's not the opposite rotation at all. The problem is FiberFX (Strand Modeler) will not rotate on the Z-axis. Other than that it roates exactly like modeler.

Bug4 - Guides go inside Body - In your tools2 tab you can turn on collision to object which stops the guides from going into the body.

Bug5 - ShiftDrag will not always Select: - It's not really a bug, once you have a node or nodes selected you have to click on another node to deselect it. Once you do that then the shift drag selection works as it should.

Bug6 - Delete Node not Working - This is not a bug. You need a minimum of 3 nodes for a guide. So you can't delete the 3rd node. If you add more than 3 nodes then you can use the delete node to delete them no problem until you get back to the minimum of 3 nodes.

Bug8 - ShiftDrag will not always Select Correct Area - This must of been fixed in version 2015.3 because it works as it should here

Bug9 - Mirroring Guides in Modeler doesn't work (StrandM Import) - The reason your mirroring is not working is because you have your fibers set to by Area, or by area selected, in this mode mirroring will not work because think about it. Just look what happens when you grow your fibers they are not mirrored right from the start (then don't even grow from in the same spots it's random) (and when you go to mirror them the option is greyed out) so how could they possibly get mirrored. Also you are setting the number of fibers so lets say you set them to 25001 fibres, how is it going to mirror 25001 fibers when half would be 12500.5 you can't have .5 of a fiber so symmetry would not work.

What you need to do is make sure the model you are working with is symmetrical, then go into your fiber tab and set it 1 per polygon or 1 per polygon scaled. Now when you create your fibers and make your guides on one side of your object when you choose to mirror them on the x-axis it mirrors perfectly and you have symmetry.

(StrandM Import) As for mirroring your guides in modeler not working when you import them back into strand modeler. Here is a workaround. If you notice there is 1point polygon on each of your guides, You need to delete this polygon and then select that same point and press p to create it again. You would have to do this for all your guides. (Try it with one or two and you will see what I mean) Now when you import it back into Strand Modeler it works, the guides are not being grown inside the model anymore.

Bug10 - BiasMap will (often) not be created unless Modeler is Closed/Open - I ran into this a few times and couldn't understand why sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. The issue is not to re-open modeler, The problem is if you go to make a bias map with a subD model it will sometimes create the color map in the Advanced Surface, and sometimes it will create it in the color button bottom of the screen but it still won't show or work. The issue is with Sub D's models. As soon as you go to create a bias map with your geometry in subD mode then it will break the bias map completely and the only way to get it to work again is like you said to close modeler and re-open it again. Solution create your bias map with subD turned off. Then you won''t have any issues works like a charm. Once your bias map is created you can go back into SubD mode.

Thanks,
Jason



erikalst

Hi, Great Reply! Thank You :D
this is a lot of good info   :)

some thoughts following...

Bug4 - Guides go inside Body
collision to object < doesn't always work for me, but maybe i should give it a few more tries.
it is also very slow on my PC, unfortunately.

Bug5 - ShiftDrag will not always Select
click on another node to deselect it < ahh... cool... :)

Bug6 - Delete Node not Working
minimum of 3 nodes for a guide < hm, i need to look more into this

Bug8 - ShiftDrag will not always Select Correct Area
fixed in version 2015.3 < Nice! :)

Bug9 - Mirroring Guides in Modeler doesn't work (StrandM Import)
need to look more into this one, a fix would be Awesome!
will definitely follow your tip and get back to it.

Bug10 - BiasMap will (often) not be created unless Modeler is Closed/Open
thanks for info, will definitely check it out. :)

Again, thank you Very much!!  FiberFX has been such a wrestle for me.
[bowdown] [king] :) 
 

Kryslin
09-29-2016, 01:20 AM
Been working on refining my bias combing algorithm; I'll have to haul out Melody again, and re-map, but I think I have a faster, more accurate bias combing tool than my previous version. Definitely follows the geometry better than the last. I'll make a few test renders in the AM, but things look good.

Greenlaw
09-29-2016, 09:24 AM
One of the best techniques for spline modeling hair in modeler using native tools is the one by Stuart Aitken. He developed it many years ago for Sasquatch but it works well for FiberFX too. In fact, it was the primary method I used for the FiberFX hair in that Devil May Cry theatrical trailer the Box made a few years back. (I also used Strand Modeler and Modo for some elements; ZBrush Fiber Mesh had come out during production but I didn't have the time to learn it. Ugh...I learned Fiber Mesh a few months later and I really wish I had it for DMC.) :oye:

Anyway, I swore by Aitken's method for many productions when we were still using Sasquatch. The workflow may seem a bit tedious compared to tools we have today but it demonstrates how much control you actually have in Modeler even with just the native tools available.

Here's the original tutorial by Aitken: http://www.worley.com/Tutorials/StuTut/index.htm

Coincidentally, I used a simpler variation of the technique last year at work. I really only had Modeler to work with at the time, and the design I was given lent itself to the technique nicely, so the technique is still useful.

Kryslin
09-29-2016, 10:54 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/Kryslin/Renders/FFX_bias_comb_test2_zpsuqfasouy.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Kryslin/media/Renders/FFX_bias_comb_test2_zpsuqfasouy.jpg.html)

Latest test of a newer algorithm - still uses perpendicular vectors, it's in how the vector from the surface to brush away from is made that makes it work.
All I need is to add Strength controls, and a map operations options (overwrite, add, add w/weight map) and things should be ready for field testing.

Greenlaw: I tried using that tutorial to generate some of my first wigs for characters... I never quite got the hang of it, and the results were... Laughable. :) However, I do agree that you have quite a bit of control with the native tools, especially magnet, for styling guides.

prometheus
09-29-2016, 11:31 AM
One of the best techniques for spline modeling hair in modeler using native tools is the one by Stuart Aitken. He developed it many years ago for Sasquatch but it works well for FiberFX too. In fact, it was the primary method I used for the FiberFX hair in that Devil May Cry theatrical trailer the Box made a few years back. (I also used Strand Modeler and Modo for some elements; ZBrush Fiber Mesh had come out during production but I didn't have the time to learn it. Ugh...I learned Fiber Mesh a few months later and I really wish I had it for DMC.) :oye:

Anyway, I swore by Aitken's method for many productions when we were still using Sasquatch. The workflow may seem a bit tedious compared to tools we have today but it demonstrates how much control you actually have in Modeler even with just the native tools available.

Here's the original tutorial by Aitken: http://www.worley.com/Tutorials/StuTut/index.htm

Coincidentally, I used a simpler variation of the technique last year at work. I really only had Modeler to work with at the time, and the design I was given lent itself to the technique nicely, so the technique is still useful.

yes..that is a good way.
I know splinegod had/has a small tute but he rail extrudes one point polys..with the help of a few guide curves, I think that was foremost for sasquatch, I tried it but the ending results is fibers not following the guides properly, not even when using strandmaker on it, so One would really have to dig in to the polychains and se how the point order is and manage it..not sure if it is possible since if you use chains with point orders from multiextrusions..I think the result will be messed up.

I have tried som particle creation too, using an emitter and let the particles flow over the head, with a child emitter as a trail reference only, then exporting the main emitter to pfx, and then use tibe3 pfx to polychain in modeler and loading that pfx file to modeler, the strand result is perfectly in order, but you need to copy the polychain in edge mode and merge points with keep 1 point polychain checked..otherwise it will crash..but going that workflow allowed for the strands and fiberfx to work nicely in render without crashing..the tricky part is to set up the particle fx with collision etc..so it requires a bit too much work perhaps..when you could simply use straight polychains and let bullet or clothfx to drape the strands to the head, then tweak it with edit fx in clothfx tab..

I need to showcase this a bit on youtube..but It will take a bit more time to get a bit better results.
I also need to showcase blender guides to lightwave..in principle the same that you need to copy the strandmesh in edge mode and paste back..and delete the original polychains..then it will work flawlessly too..the combing tools in blender is better with cutting and combing and individual placement, and with collision detecting while combing..what it seem to lack though..that is fiberfx styling of twist, kink..and some other settings, and you would have to go with blenders forces and self effects for that.

The grease pencil tool in blender allows for drawing directly projected curves on any surface, then convert to curves....so that can also be exported to hairguides in lightwave, if you want exact flow tight to the head or something.

Greenlaw
09-29-2016, 12:19 PM
@Kryslin, hey that's looking really good! It seems similar to the version in Sasquatch but it sounds you're giving it a lot more control.

Yeah, Aitken's technique can be difficult to grasp at first. I think it took me several tries before I really understood how to make it work for me, but once I got the hang of it, I stuck with this method for many years.

BTW, you can't do this trick in Modo (at least not in 6, the last version I upgraded to) because it doesn't do Rail Cloning the same way Modeler does. That was a surprise to me at the time. I asked about this back then but I think the feeling was that I should be using their combing tools. So I tried Modo's combing tool (sorry, I don't think it's called that but it's been a while.) It's actually kinda like Edit Guides in that the guides only grow from the cage vertices--I thought it worked okay but at the time it didn't support symmetry, so I didn't use it very much.

I don' t think I used Edit Guides till quite a bit later--probably version 11.5.x. That was the first version that I felt worked reliably enough to use, and I used it for the first FiberFX version of the cats in our music video, and I probably wouldn't have used it if it didn't support symmetry. The results looked pretty good at the time and it only took me about about a half-hour to style, which seemed remarkable to me at the time.

Eventually, I wound up combing the fur in Fiber Mesh. This took me way longer to do but, in the end, it did look better. The big issue with Fiber Mesh was the lack of weight, morph and UV maps for image texturing, and I had to jump through many hoops to get that working with FiberMesh. (It's always something, isn't it?) :)

I really should try 'furring' the cats with Edit Guides in 2015.3. In 11.5.x. The reason I abandoned the Edit Guides version back then for Fiber Mesh was because of a network render issue which I believe has since been fixed.

Oldcode
09-29-2016, 01:23 PM
thanks, yeah, seems that is missing.

certainly can understand many complains about FiberFX. one has to know what to do / what not to.

i can wrestle FiberFX, but it's certainly a lot back and forth.
Modeler<>StrandTool<>Layout back and forth, back and forth.

LWG has port all FiberFX tools into Layout imo.
until then... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

Hey Guys,

This has been a very interesting thread to read. This idea of creating guilds and then pulling them into Modeler/Strand Builder is very interesting. Yes, it does sound tedious, but the tools for shaping the guilds in Layout are so bad, I've given up..

Would it be possible for somebody to do a tutorial about the basic workflow of going back and forth between Modeler and Layout to make and adjust hair guides? It does not have to be a video. A text document with screen shots would be a big help.


If I can figure out how to do this, it would solve a big problem I have with my characters and getting decent looking hair on them.

Thanks in advance,

prometheus
09-29-2016, 01:35 PM
Hey Guys,

This has been a very interesting thread to read. This idea of creating guilds and then pulling them into Modeler/Strand Builder is very interesting. Yes, it does sound tedious, but the tools for shaping the guilds in Layout or so bad, I've given up..

Would it be possible for somebody to do a tutorial about the basic workflow of going back and forth between Modeler and Layout to make and adjust hair guides? It does not have to be a video. A text document with screen shots would be a big help.


If I can figure out how to do this, it would solve a big problem I have with my characters and getting decent looking hair on them.

Thanks in advance,

Just draw splines in modeler, spline draw when needed..a few guides, move with move, or drag tool or magnet tool, copy and paste or spin them around the y axis..then start model with pole tool or magnet tool, have them in a separate layer, save object and send to layout, layout from 11.6 can render curves directly, so you swap back and forth and see how it looks, just add custom object show curve in layout on the curve layer, so you get a proper opengl presentation of the curves, apply fiberfx on the curves..uncheck and set gravity to zero and most other styling tools except length..tes render in layout.
then switch back to modeler and retweak..thatīs all, once you are happy with the curves..and if you want them to be dynamic, then toggle lines on off, or convert to polychains.
It is always risky tweaking too much..and going back and forth to layout, that can cause crashes..and do not use VPR active in layout while doing that, just use it for previews..then turn it off, and do not edit the curves by cutting..or inserting points, at least not when switching to layout, if you need to cut..I suggest clear scene and reload with the new hair editing.

Greenlaw
09-29-2016, 01:37 PM
Since I'm revisiting Edit Guides for the cats, I'll record a video session and post it. Will let you know when it's up.

I've been planning a bunch of tutorials for the website--I'll add some of the described styling techniques to the list. (Might be a while though, it's a long list. Maybe I can prioritize some topics via a poll?)

prometheus
09-29-2016, 01:45 PM
drawing a nice simple spline curve from the middle of the head and straight down is pretty straight forward, then use multiply/duplicate/more/ spin it..and choose y axis..set 45 or lower for more spline guides to duplicate..it will spin around the guide to give hairguides all around, use magnet and pole tools to shape it, pole tool is good for style opening the front hair that covers the face.
Do not have the spline curve selected when running spin it..that wonīt work, just use it on the layer directly.
You could limit the effect so you wont be deforming the back of the head when using pole tool with itīs own influence..or use volume mode and drag an area to only be affected, once the front area of the guides is styled, work on the back in the side views..and then check from top views as well, if you use the magnet tool, use radial falloff, not point radial.

prometheus
09-29-2016, 02:06 PM
another thing...You can even run clothfx directly on curves, and calculate (use only 1 or 2 frames for faster sim..thatīs all that is needed) then go to editfx tab and use the edittool start by changing the size in the edit size value..if you have a head around 21 cm in length..maybe a value around 0,03 is suitable to see when the brush radius control is showing..I think by default it is quite huge so you hardly see it. then you can sculpt draw the guides, you may however want to turn off the visibility of the fiberfx while doing the editing, since it wonīt update live while tweaking until checking itīs active or visibility...so there is a way to edit curves directly in layout..without fiberfx deforming tools.

prometheus
09-29-2016, 03:00 PM
And one more thing with editing curves directly in layout (not polychains) saving out the editing to mdd with various style name..then you can clear the motion and the curves revert back to as they were styled in modeler, then loading back the mdd allows for loading of various styles, you can also continue to pick up the edit tool and retweak any style within the mdd, itīs a bit of chronosculpt styling, I actually found it nicer to work with curves directly and not hard edged polychains, and not with fiberfx edit guides in layout..since that pushes the guides without any good control, the difference is that you can comb stroke...which you canīt with editfx..only click and drag, but at the same time when using clothfx editfx..it is easier to move the guides the way I want, so I hope they may have taken that further and allowing for airbrushing directly without the editfx style module popup, that is also why I feel it more comfortable to use clothfx than fiberfx edit guides.

I am surprised all this worked with both rendering spline curves, and now also using clothfx and editfx on the curves just drawn with spline draw.. without them even being converted to polychains.
when loading mdd settings..you need to adjust the time slider or update clothfx with check nod match and uncheck..or update playback mode, otherwise it looks like the mdd file isnīt updating.
Working in 11.6.2 right now.

erikals
09-29-2016, 04:04 PM
very cool prometheus..! didn't know.  noted!

:)

prometheus
09-29-2016, 04:47 PM
very cool prometheus..! didn't know.  noted!

:)

yeah..curves only without even messing with converting them is cool, at least for rendering and editing with clothfx, I need to evaluate if they react to collsion as well
I will test drive all this and hope to get back with a vid this weekend, I think that is easier to record than the workflow between blender guides to lightwave..that is also in the plans.

Cool..it also works to add wind forces and let them affect the curves..just being spline curves, so wonky styling can be made here:)
..probably also collision forces, not sure how it work deep inside, probably layout just treats it all as polychains when clothfx is applied.

I really should get me a mic though, will have to look at one soon.

Oldcode
09-29-2016, 05:16 PM
Just draw splines in modeler, spline draw when needed..a few guides, move with move, or drag tool or magnet tool, copy and paste or spin them around the y axis..then start model with pole tool or magnet tool, have them in a separate layer, save object and send to layout, layout from 11.6 can render curves directly, so you swap back and forth and see how it looks, just add custom object show curve in layout on the curve layer, so you get a proper opengl presentation of the curves, apply fiberfx on the curves..uncheck and set gravity to zero and most other styling tools except length..tes render in layout.
then switch back to modeler and retweak..thatīs all, once you are happy with the curves..and if you want them to be dynamic, then toggle lines on off, or convert to polychains.
It is always risky tweaking too much..and going back and forth to layout, that can cause crashes..and do not use VPR active in layout while doing that, just use it for previews..then turn it off, and do not edit the curves by cutting..or inserting points, at least not when switching to layout, if you need to cut..I suggest clear scene and reload with the new hair editing.

Thanks Prometheus,

Those are come cool suggestions, but I think I'm pretty much good with actually creating hair guides that I like. What I need to know is how to bring those guides into FiberFx in Layout and back again. You guys have mentioned about taking a hair style in FiberFx Layout, converting to polychains, bringing them into Modeler, making adjustment, then then putting them back into Layout.

How do you do that?

prometheus
09-29-2016, 07:15 PM
Thanks Prometheus,

Those are come cool suggestions, but I think I'm pretty much good with actually creating hair guides that I like. What I need to know is how to bring those guides into FiberFx in Layout and back again. You guys have mentioned about taking a hair style in FiberFx Layout, converting to polychains, bringing them into Modeler, making adjustment, then then putting them back into Layout.

How do you do that?

Lets keep this apart, the guides, can be either pure fiberfx strands created in layout fiberfx, then you got edit guides..also in layout fiberfx, you could jump in to edit guides and start brushing on guides even if you have 0 fiber density, but as soon as you quit the edit guides, they are gone, but they have affected the fibers..so if you raise back the fiber density...you will see the fibers changed...so, no..You can probably not just use edit guides as they are and send to modeler.
But you can use layout fiberfx with density, and then in fiberfx panel and itīs surface that is active for the fibers, right click on it and you will get a menu to polygonize them, and click ok with those default settings..the fibers are now polychains created as a new mesh layer, you need to save that object before you can switch to modeler and work on it, in modeler you could then continue to deform with all kinds of modifiers, magnet etc.

You can however use the layouts edit guides to make initial combing before you polygonize the fibers.

The other way around, if you use strand modeler in modeler, and hit ok, you got polychains, those are able to work by clicking on edit guides in layout..after you have sent it to layout that is.

If you go with the first route and polygonize in layout, and switch to modeler for tweaks, then switch back to layout..the mesh should update, but here you got to separate that this mesh isnīt active in layout, since in layout it created the polygonize mesh separately, so you would have to deactivate the original hair mesh, and instead activate the polygonized mesh you just tweaked in modeler.

Kryslin
10-02-2016, 11:02 PM
Pulled out my Melody mesh, and ran a few tests...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/Kryslin/Renders/ffx01Oct16_zpsyt74eyma.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Kryslin/media/Renders/ffx01Oct16_zpsyt74eyma.jpg.html)
Basic functions are all there - surface to apply to, surface to brush away from, strength of combing, strength of gravity.

I'll be adding map operations during the week.

One thing I've noted - my script is slow, especially on a model like Daz' Melody; 67K polygons, and a vertex normal calculation that loops through 3-4 polygons... 280K items.

Greenlaw
10-03-2016, 12:14 AM
Working in 11.6.2 right now.

One of the reasons I avoided 11.6.x for FiberFX was that motion vectors support got broken (it worked fine in 11.5 sp3). Since this is where I got my biggest render time savings, it was a show-stopper for me (one of many reasons the Brudders music video project got shelved for a long time). LW3DG fixed this for 2015.x though.

Greenlaw
10-03-2016, 12:23 AM
You guys have mentioned about taking a hair style in FiberFx Layout, converting to polychains, bringing them into Modeler, making adjustment, then then putting them back into Layout.

How do you do that?

If you style hair using Edit Guides in Layout, you can convert the guides using the right-click command Polygonize Mixed. Save the geometry after this and you can send it to Modeler for editing. Magnet is probably the more useful tool for editing something like that but be careful not to edit the roots. And be especially careful not to delete the root points in Modeler unless you also delete the rest of the strand it's related to--if you're neglectful about this, it will definitely crash FiberFX during rendering.

This feature is also how you can apply Bullet Dynamics to Edit Guides. Just be sure to save your work at different stages if you're still editing the style because it's basically a one way trip.

The last time I used this feature was for a b-movie I helped out on last year. A friend was supervising the vfx on the film and he needed a character with long floaty hair, that moved like it was underwater. I made a quick proof-of-concept for this effect using Edit Guides and Bullet so he could show his fx team. The proof came together very quickly and he seemed really happy with it.

prometheus
10-03-2016, 12:58 AM
If you style hair using Edit Guides in Layout, you can convert the guides using the right-click command Polygonize Mixed. Save the geometry after this and you can send it to Modeler for editing. Magnet is probably the more useful tool for editing something like that but be careful not to edit the roots. And be especially careful not to delete the root points in Modeler unless you also delete the rest of the strand it's related to--if you're neglectful about this, it will definitely crash FiberFX during rendering.

This feature is also how you can apply Bullet Dynamics to Edit Guides. Just be sure to save your work at different stages if you're still editing the style because it's basically a one way trip.

The last time I used this feature was for a b-movie I helped out on last year. A friend was supervising the vfx on the film and he needed a character with long floaty hair, that moved like it was underwater. I made a quick proof-of-concept for this effect using Edit Guides and Bullet so he could show his fx team. The proof came together very quickly and he seemed really happy with it.

Yes..I mentioned polygonize as well..though I didnīt suggest mixed.
And yes..do not delete root points, it will crash-
Magnet tool...agree with that as well.

underwater hair floating, well..yes, bullet works and polychains, but I recently discovered you can just draw spline draw in modeler, and not even converting them, then also use clothfx on them, or just ripple displacement for that kind effect, though I am not sure it would allow for collision, when only being curves, but I was surprised that clothfx works directly on curves, curves also renders directly in fiberfx as well ..at least for 11.6 and up.
Thanks for the heads up on motion vectors, have to check that..unfortunatly. 11.5 was to crashy for me...11.6 the most stable, and 2015 the most unstable version for me up til this date.
To bad there isnīt anyway of having fiberfx styling and gravity procedural fake motion working with collisions, since they only affect the fibers and styling, not actual polychain strands, so for any motion that also needs to interact with collisions, you can not use the styling tools or animated gravity..like seen here for realistic collsions with something, only a few areas you may get away with it, grass can be one of them if nothing collides with it...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5USThM-wvfk

Greenlaw
10-03-2016, 01:10 AM
11.5 was to crashy for me...11.6 the most stable, and 2015 the most unstable version for me up til this date.

Surprised to hear that. 2015.3 has been very stable for me, at least on the two shows I've used FiberFX on this year. I can't go into detail since the shows have not aired but I used Edit Guides for both of them.

I did run into a new bug with one of the settings..ugh, can't remember what that was now. Will see if I can find it in my notes tomorrow.

prometheus
10-03-2016, 03:48 AM
The pole tool is also useful to open up the front part that may cover the face, you could work in volume mode and select the front part mostly, then use the pole tool in the front and open up..that is if you for instanc draw a spline that goes from top of the head and down and spint it around a few times, quite simple for a basic hair.

I wonder ..doesnīt 3d powers brush tools work on spline curves, or polychains?

Michael

erikals
10-03-2016, 04:10 AM
doesn't 3d powers brush tools work on spline curves, or polychains?

yup.
(not on splines/curves but you can fix that by using > ef toggle lines (https://people.dsv.su.se/~dadu9329/evenflow3d/))


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6W_CxIYIeQ

prometheus
10-03-2016, 04:27 AM
yup.
(not on splines/curves but you can fix that by using > ef toggle lines (https://people.dsv.su.se/~dadu9329/evenflow3d/))


Yes..I figured toggle line and lw brush should do it, You used the grab tool..have you tested the push/pull tool? I thought that would be better for combing strokes, maybe not?

erikals
10-03-2016, 05:33 AM
from what i recall, Grab tool was the way to go, i remember trying the Push/Pull as it seemed logic, but Grab was the way.  :)

erikals
10-03-2016, 07:42 AM
discovered you can just draw spline draw in modeler, and not even converting them, then also use clothfx on them

did try it in 11.6, but it has no hold structure, so vertices fall straight to the "ground"
so, almost there, but no, didn't work. good catch though.  :)

prometheus
10-03-2016, 08:08 AM
did try it in 11.6, but it has no hold structure, so vertices fall straight to the "ground"
so, almost there, but no, didn't work. good catch though.  :)

Donīt tell me you used gravity?
In real life that is no good, just look at me if you could, the hair is almost gone now :)
without clothfx gravity ..itīs all good, but if you insist on gravity, make your root points a fixed point set, and do not forget to set it to that in clothfx(basic tab, fix/fixed pointset...almost there, you may need to change weight and set a hold structure..it should work.

prometheus
10-03-2016, 08:14 AM
curves also works with old collsion objects ..but remember to set collision detect to all, or the surface of your collision object, and calculate

erikals
10-03-2016, 08:47 AM
that's why i sleep upside down.

hah, no seriously, losing a little bit to much over here as well [agh!] http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

did some more tests, it's not behaving quite correctly. it doesn't matter too much though.

i need to get a good long hair collision solution. no fan of Bullet for long hair, so trying to get ClothFX to work nicely [misson impossible] when working with strong wind.

next > Syflex.

prometheus
10-03-2016, 09:22 AM
that's why i sleep upside down.

hah, no seriously, losing a little bit to much over here as well [agh!] http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

did some more tests, it's not behaving quite correctly. it doesn't matter too much though.

i need to get a good long hair collision solution. no fan of Bullet for long hair, so trying to get ClothFX to work nicely [misson impossible] when working with strong wind.

next > Syflex.

Iīll post a scenefile with curves and collision later, it seems to not be very much different than polychains, whether or not you choose to use curves or toggle lines on off is up to you.

prometheus
10-03-2016, 09:35 AM
ehmm

might be better to stick with curves off, and toggle to that, there is some extreme difference when affected by forces.

Greenlaw
10-03-2016, 09:44 AM
I find that, in motion, you only need collision against the guides and head and shoulders, and maybe the arms if they're raised and touching the hair. Bullet is very fast if you limit it to that. Here's an old test I did in 11.5 for the music video to demonstrate at multiple densities:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-kQRSsaCpg

The playback is just using Layout's transport so it may look slower than normal speed but the Bullet calculations were really fast I think, especially for 11.5 days on a fairly modest computer.

The reason I think strand-to-stand collision isn't usually very important is because, in normal motion, you really can't see it happening, especially after motion blur is applied. I only use strand collision if the animation is going to be active but really slow, and it's absolutely critical to see the strands colliding with each other. (This situation is much rarer than you might think. Even bigger productions may not bother most of the time...it can be a waste of CPU time if you're never going to notice the result.)

For the music video, I think I wound up using the 5000 guides version, which in the above shows Bullet calculating 120 frames in about 40 seconds. (I don't have a lot of time for personal projects, so 'fastest but still reasonably good' is always preferred for me.) if you use a good cluster density and size radius to create 'locks' of hair, this is high enough for most normal human hair looks. (You can use additional layers of FiberFX for shorter 'base' hair and other details when you need them, and leave dynamics out of those layers.)

The 'Sister Motion Test' (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jASC8IOsIqY) shows a practical example (a little jerky but it was just a test), and of course the music video excerpt (http://littlegreendog.com/2016/02/21/teaser-the-brudders-music-video/) I released a couple of years ago shows more practical examples.

(Ugh...I really need to get some recent examples online. Except for comics, I haven't posted anything new for ages.) :p

erikals
10-03-2016, 11:26 AM
did some experiments with ClothFX, might back back with the findings.

thank you Greenlaw, good info :) will have a closer look in a bit.

prometheus
10-04-2016, 05:15 AM
Since I am a bit too slow with this, I will point to someone else already showcasing basic combing in blender that has voice instructions and knows blender better than me..
3:19 in the clip when the combing starts..check from start to see basic appliance.

I will get back on the export to lightwave part soon.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L3wq6d26yI

erikals
10-04-2016, 07:58 AM
reminds me a bit of 3rdPowers Grab... though Blender is more stream-lined...

here, me testing again...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5iU9UPVKxs


far away from Blender, but it still has a benefit, as it's an extremely accurate approach.
so for "Disney Cinderella Hair" or such, it's a quite good technique.

prometheus
10-04-2016, 08:26 AM
reminds me a bit of 3rdPowers Grab... though Blender is more stream-lined...

here, me testing again...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5iU9UPVKxs


far away from Blender, but it still has a benefit, as it's an extremely accurate approach.
so for "Disney Cinderella Hair" or such, it's a quite good technique.

I left a comment and a warning about rail extrude, I think that messes up the point order and consequently the fibers will sprout and not continously follow the strandguides, itīs the same if you try and extend several points at the same time.

erikals
10-04-2016, 08:29 AM
the point order is good, renders fine.

at least in LW11.6

prometheus
10-04-2016, 10:31 PM
the point order is good, renders fine.

at least in LW11.6

crossposting on the tube and here...
weird...I do get a point order of 1,5,10, for each point in a strandsegment when rail extruding. And by the way..additional info to your dragnet, but I think you are aware of it...you donīt have to use the point radial, that requires "lucky shot" picking..Insted using radial falloff and not point fallof.. doesnīt require picking a vertex..however, the falloff marque is static so you have to move that around the area needed, then click and move, so none of them are good in any case. Good to see it works with lw brush to some extent anyway.

prometheus
10-04-2016, 10:47 PM
I think I got that right now, weird..could have sworn it was messed up somewhere, sure the point order is going criss cross from the root point, so the point order isnīt going by the polystrand, which is different from when you clone a guide.

after I rail extrude, I simply fail to get it working with lw 2015 directly, it crashes, unless I first copy the strands in edge mode and paste back, this is the case with imported blender guides as well.
But great..I must have made something wrong before, cause at that time I got sprouting per each point, but itīs ok now.

erikals
10-06-2016, 05:24 AM
Greenlaw, i have a quick question regarding ClothFX. it is as follows >

how were your findings on ClothFX for hair?  http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif


(in my current tests accurate collision is a problem)

Greenlaw
10-06-2016, 09:02 AM
It's been a long time since I used ClothFX for hair. I think that may have been back when we were creating cinematics for Saboteur, so 2009?

Up to then, I used ClothFX routinely for hair dynamics. I thought it worked well but it could be really slow if you applied it directly to the guides. What I always did instead was to create several cages around 'locks' of guides, and I used FX_Metalink to move the 'locks' with ClothFX instead. This significantly improved collision accuracy and sped up calculations many times--sometimes down to from an hour or more to a few minutes or even a few seconds depending on the character's hairstyle and complexity of the dynamics required.

I had this down to a fairly reliable system and we used it for long hair, horse tails and manes, underwater hair, etc. The system could still be fiddly in certain situations but I was just thrilled that it worked. Back then, the only other option in LightWave was to fake it using Lazypoints, Intertia, or the Worley version--none which did real collision like ClothFX.

Anyway, the key for me was to use FX_Metalink and cages wherever I could. I rarely applied ClothFX directly to the guides--that would be too slow and chaotic for production work and tight deadlines.

Maybe I started using Bullet for guides during the Fable: The Journey E3 trailer? I think I used Bullet for the horse's mane in that production. That would have been in 2011 or so, so I'm not sure (need to check when Deforming was added.) I'm sure I was using Sasquatch still--I didn't start using FiberFX for characters till DMC, which was maybe a year later.

Anyway, in general, I find Bullet is significantly faster, especially if I'm going to apply it directly to the guide chains. After I started using Bullet for hair, I rarely bother with hair cages anymore, and I almost never think about ClothFX for it.

The only time I really use ClothFX these days is to do an MD Scan so I can use one of the old Meta tools. Not that there's anything wrong with ClothFX, I just find Bullet is much faster and pretty accurate when you know how to optimize it.

But that's just my personal experience. I'm sure there are many ways to do these things and some tools work better for different situations.

prometheus
10-12-2016, 03:47 AM
hereīs an oldie from carm3d might be helpful to add to our styling toolbox...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAzELhsxwR8

Kryslin
10-27-2016, 10:57 AM
Greenlaw : I've been trying to duplicate your work with Hair Dynamics on another character, namely using bullet on hair guides. While I've got most of settings dialed in, the one that I can't puzzle out is the textured channel on Shape Retention. How is that defined?