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djwaterman
09-14-2016, 04:47 AM
http://www.blenderguru.com/tutorials/introduction-microdisplacements/

This is the feature that I've wanted in LW for as long as I knew about it, and now it's in Blender. So LW3DG, I ask you to consider working towards this after this next coming release. I understand it won't be in the next release, but I think it really needs to happen as soon as possible. It opens up too many possibilities to be ignored.

samurai_x
09-14-2016, 04:50 AM
They just lost a major developer that worked on blender since 2002.
Now there's only 3 full time developer afaik and the others are fly by night devs. Who developed this disp feature?

MichaelT
09-14-2016, 06:59 AM
What LW doesn't have is Adaptive Subdivision. As for the rest, it is possible to do with what is already in LW.

Ztreem
09-14-2016, 07:09 AM
What LW doesn't have is Adaptive Subdivision. As for the rest, it is possible to do with what is already in LW.

Actually we have, we the APS system. But it's hard to tweak as you have to render everytime you alter a setting to see your changes...

MichaelT
09-14-2016, 08:16 AM
Actually we have, we the APS system. But it's hard to tweak as you have to render everytime you alter a setting to see your changes...

I see, you learn something new every day :)

creacon
09-14-2016, 08:28 AM
Here you go, they went back in time and fixed it for you in 2007.

http://www.axisorigin.com/lwtutorials/aps/


but I think it really needs to happen as soon as possible. It opens up too many possibilities to be ignored.

jeric_synergy
09-14-2016, 08:40 AM
Here you go, they went back in time and fixed it for you in 2007.
::snap!::

(Still, if you have to render to see tweeking, that's sub-optimal. Esp nine years later.)

bazsa73
09-14-2016, 10:39 AM
Sorcery!

OnlineRender
09-14-2016, 10:46 AM
Sorcery!

Octane does MicroD does it not?

prometheus
09-14-2016, 10:46 AM
Yes,...the aps system in lightwave without opengl display to show it before render makes it not efficient to work with..so sadly, I donīt employ it.

thereīs also dp microdisplace..
http://dpont.pagesperso-orange.fr/plugins/DP_MicroDisp.html


Then lino said some time ago upon my request on microdisplacement, that he understood it and that it was important for "us" so they are probably implementing it soon.

so Blender now got..

1. open subdiv
2. micropoly displacement
3. sculpting
4. skin modifier.

And it doesnīt cost you anything :)
those are some nifty modeling tools I sure would like to see in lightwave

prometheus
09-14-2016, 12:48 PM
Hereīs a comment made earlier by Lino...
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?145404-We-don-t-need-micro-poly-displacement-in-LW&p=1419595&highlight=#post1419595

"Micro-poly Displacement has been mentioned several times, and we consider it something very important. "

erikals
09-14-2016, 01:02 PM
Micro-poly Displacement might be on the LW2018 agenda.

if there is a LightWave 2017, that is... who knows these days.  http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/confused_002.gif

prometheus
09-14-2016, 01:05 PM
Hereīs a comment made earlier by Lino...
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?145404-We-don-t-need-micro-poly-displacement-in-LW&p=1419595&highlight=#post1419595

"Micro-poly Displacement has been mentioned several times, and we consider it something very important. "


and more tracking of Lino posts about micropoly displacement, in the rosetta tribute thread..where he did some nice displacement looking like the rosetta comet...
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?144476-LightWave-tribute-to-Rosetta!!

"Well, no, that's the same displacement you can use now.
But, of course micro-poly displacement is absolutely in the plans."

- - - Updated - - -



Micro-poly Displacement might be on the LW2018 agenda.

if there is a LightWave 2017, that is... who knows these days.  http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/confused_002.gif

some real confusion, I actually thought that Lino himself mentioned in a thread here that the release was close, but then I read on the update thread that he on facebook said it wasnīt near a release..hubba hubba..who to trust?
I was looking to see if I could find that post, but couldnīt find it.

jwiede
09-15-2016, 07:12 AM
some real confusion, I actually thought that Lino himself mentioned in a thread here that the release was close, but then I read on the update thread that he on facebook said it wasnīt near a release..hubba hubba..who to trust?
I was looking to see if I could find that post, but couldnīt find it.

You're thinking of his "imminent" post (which everyone else seems to deny ever happened, but which I remember all too clearly). It's gone after the forum thread loss event. :rolleyes:

prometheus
09-15-2016, 09:27 AM
You're thinking of his "imminent" post (which everyone else seems to deny ever happened, but which I remember all too clearly). It's gone after the forum thread loss event. :rolleyes:

I am pretty certain it was mentioned ..soon, what you put in that can be very relative, I think I recall when it was said soon, Upon I made the statement ..maybe it will show up within some weeks, that was my interpretation of soon..obviously I might have been very wrong then if the release isnīt "soon" anymore, and as you said..the thread is gone since the forum crash..so nothing we can point to as statement, nor is it really necessary to clang on to..if they now say it will take some time..all we can do is to adapt and overcome whatever issues we may have with that.
Arguing about who said who and when will not be constructive in my book for the moment, and I leave that for the lw team to dwell on regarding their communication and what effect that has.

Letīs hope they manage to get microsdisplacement in there then, if the new geo engine and new displacements shows up with tremendeous performance, that will be awesome, provided there isnīt too much of bugs and mismatch with other things.

I havenīt checked the latest blender builds either with this microdisplacement, so that is on my schedule maybe next week, as well as testing the new curve strokes on surface geometry and the realtime boolean tools and itīs architecture addon.
So right now it is modeling a bit with lightwave to keep it in memory and also boosting with learning blender more and more.

The sculpting tools and skin modifier is mainly what keeps me interested as tools lightwave doesnīt have..while I sometimes prefer the more direct point, edit, poly and subsurface modeling in lightwave...since I am more faster on that and also finds the tools easier and also focus on the model object in viewport is easier for me in lightwave...since I had it soo much longer in my hands than blender.

MichaelT
09-15-2016, 09:50 AM
Regardless though, that functionality is available today. This is more a make-it-a-button type of thing.

prometheus
09-15-2016, 12:11 PM
Regardless though, that functionality is available today. This is more a make-it-a-button type of thing.

Do you mean the dp microdisplace or aps system natively?

dp microdisplace I recall had a lot of crashing..or slow to use when I tested it..thus I really didnīt go deeper on checking the workflow with it.
and aps..well, It is poorly implemented in terms that it is hard to visualize the geometry level in openg (as there is none) or for vpr ..neither of them displays the triangulation and level of detail in wireframe display.
If we could have instant wire display while tweaking the gradients in layout..or better yet, when we get a weight paint brush in layout that instantly sprays the level of detail where we want it in layout with realtime feedback on the subdiv resolution applied.

A cool thing in blender when sculpting, turning off strength, but using a sculpt draw brush with dynamic topo active, will let you either paint reduce mesh resolution or paint increase resolution depending on what pixel resolution is set, this is really cool since you can paint over areas and reduce or increase divisions without actually sculpt deform anything until you activate strength, it is similar to sculptris..but even better in my opinion., this is controlled by detail size and the lower detail px size the higher the resolution will be and the higher the px size is the lower the resolution will be, if we could have true Adaptive subsurface display in wire in opengl while painting it..that would be cool, blender sculpting with dyntopo is a bit different though.

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=134484&d=1473963791


Michael

MichaelT
09-15-2016, 01:38 PM
Do you mean the dp microdisplace or aps system natively?

dp microdisplace I recall had a lot of crashing..or slow to use when I tested it..thus I really didnīt go deeper on checking the workflow with it.
and aps..well, It is poorly implemented in terms that it is hard to visualize the geometry level in openg (as there is none) or for vpr ..neither of them displays the triangulation and level of detail in wireframe display.
If we could have instant wire display while tweaking the gradients in layout..or better yet, when we get a weight paint brush in layout that instantly sprays the level of detail where we want it in layout with realtime feedback on the subdiv resolution applied.

A cool thing in blender when sculpting, turning off strength, but using a sculpt draw brush with dynamic topo active, will let you either paint reduce mesh resolution or paint increase resolution depending on what pixel resolution is set, this is really cool since you can paint over areas and reduce or increase divisions without actually sculpt deform anything until you activate strength, it is similar to sculptris..but even better in my opinion., this is controlled by detail size and the lower detail px size the higher the resolution will be and the higher the px size is the lower the resolution will be, if we could have true Adaptive subsurface display in wire in opengl while painting it..that would be cool, blender sculpting with dyntopo is a bit different though.

(removed image)


Michael

I mean both. Although you would want to use object<->camera distance instead in 2015. Anyway, I think it works rather well.
And I would also like to emphasize that I use most tools out there, including Blender.

134489

If I want to paint a model to lower the details, I can use Zbrush, 3Dcoat, SculptGL or Sculptris.. if not Blender. That is really not a thing for this discussion however :)

prometheus
09-17-2016, 04:04 PM
Might be of interest, blender guru explaining well both aps and micropoly in blender..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRzzaRvVDng&feature=em-subs_digest

Rayek
09-20-2016, 01:25 PM
They just lost a major developer that worked on blender since 2002.
Now there's only 3 full time developer afaik and the others are fly by night devs. Who developed this disp feature?

You mean Brecht van Lommel, who was the main Cycles developer. He started work for Arnold in 2014, but is still involved in an advisory role related to Cycles. He reviews patches for Cycles, but is not allowed to write code himself (due to his work for the Arnold renderer).

But he still part of Blender's development, btw - just not allowed to write code for Cycles because of his job.

And "only" three full time developers (and hundreds of volunteer developers) does not seem stem the quick influx of new features and add-ons for Blender at all, hmm? Blender is developed and improved at a rapid pace. I also appreciate how the small stuff is being improved as well from release to release. Compare that to Modo, and the state it is currently in, for example.

During his trip to Siggraph this summer, Ton Roosendaal secured financial support from AMD to hire a full-time Cycles developer for one year, and Tangent Animation (animation studio in Toronto) will sponsor two developers to work in Blender Institute on 2.8 targets (defined by BF), and will sponsor one Cycles developer (either to work in Blender Institute or in Toronto) for at least 1 year.

And for 2.78 the list of new features is already quite impressive - have you seen that new 2d animation system? Insane! And it is only the first version: https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:Ref/Release_Notes/2.78/GPencil

Here is a list of Cycles improvements:
https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:Ref/Release_Notes/2.78/Cycles
Cycles now supports rendering spherical stereo images for VR as well.

Check out all the new 2.78 features: https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:Ref/Release_Notes/2.78

By the way, custom manipulators are on their way too (custom on-screen widgets):
https://wiki.blender.org/index.php?title=User:Julianeisel/Custom_Manipulators

The future looks very bright indeed for Blender's development.

Wickedpup
09-20-2016, 03:36 PM
Compare that to Modo, and the state it is currently in, for example.
What state is that exactly?

Rayek
09-20-2016, 03:54 PM
What state is that?

See this thread: http://community.thefoundry.co.uk/discussion/topic.aspx?f=4&t=125563&page=0

In a nutshell, while Modo in its first versions had a very clean UI, and easy to understand tools, in its latest incarnations new tools and features have been added that are quite convoluted and difficult to work with, and older tools are hardly updated anymore. Developers focus on big headline features, and do not take any cues from long-time users, several of whom have now decided to look elsewhere (either Maya or Blender, or both).

I am no Modo user, however - never particularly liked the workflow for some reason, although I have had to work with it a bunch of times for work.

It is an interesting discussion, touching and comparing various 3d applications, and in overall most of the Modo users' comments seem to agree on two things: (1) Brad leaving Modo is "A Bad Thing" (because he always directed Modo's development), and (2) Modo is losing/has lost its way, and the developers are plainly ignoring long-time users, which is demonstrated by stability issues, the lack of updates in regards to the existing tool set, the problematic animation workflow, unacceptable playback performance, GUI usability issues, as well as fighting noise in the MODO rendering engine.

At least, those are the feelings I get from reading through the (very long) thread.

It's also interesting to see how the grass always seems to be greener on the other side of the fence, eh? ;-)

jeric_synergy
09-20-2016, 03:56 PM
It's also interesting to see how the grass always seems to be greener on the other side of the fence, eh? ;-)
Sure is.

The process of devolution seems familiar though.

Wickedpup
09-20-2016, 04:06 PM
It's also interesting to see how the grass always seems to be greener on the other side of the fence, eh? ;-)
Not only do you have a lot of opinions about a software you do not use......but the fact that you use the word Blender in practically any post makes that last statement pretty hilarious.

Rayek
09-20-2016, 04:09 PM
Sure is.

The process of devolution seems familiar though.

Compared to most other software, 3d apps are incredibly complex, and stuffed to the brim with functionality (as we are all aware of, I assume). Keeping it all together and providing a sensible and controllable GUI becomes a very, very tough job. Especially when marketing is breathing down the devs' necks to come up with snazzy new features.

I am beginning to understand the advantages of subscriptions - less pressure. Similar to Blender's open source model, it allows for a more relaxed development process. I wonder whether that is the main reason why Maya improved that much in the last couple of versions.

Rayek
09-20-2016, 04:24 PM
Not only do you have a lot of opinions about a software you do not use......but the fact that you use the word Blender in practically any post makes that last statement pretty hilarious.

Those opinions I merely mirrored from that thread - not mine, Modo's users' opinions. Nowhere did I write or state those opinions are mine. If my writing implied otherwise, I apologize.

And I still use Lightwave for its rendering (and sometimes LWCad). We use what works best for us. Blender is admittedly my core 3d app nowadays together with 3dCoat, seasoned with a touch of Lightwave and an older version of Cinema4d.

Having said that, I am awaiting Lightwave's Modeler and Layout consolidation with anticipation. It might take a while, and I am hoping to see it happen in the upcoming couple of years.

Wickedpup
09-20-2016, 05:00 PM
I did see your name on a few posts in that thread so while youīre no user you clearly have opinions on the matter. I donīt get why youīre so evasive about it. And given that the theme songs for your posts are usually 1)Blender Heaven and 2)Open Source Delights (in that order) I have a hard time seeing what a Layout/Modeller consolidation has to offer you. Itīs not like LW can compete with Blender on price, right? Maybe GPU rendering? Nope. (Could probably go on and on.....)

jeric_synergy
09-20-2016, 05:25 PM
Someone's probably writing a dissertation on the life-cycle of 3d apps right now.

It seems they usually start well, with a good central idea, and then get mired in their own complexity. At that point sometimes the original devs jump ship and start over using the lessons they learned to avoid those particular potholes, and then repeat the process. If not, the app can choke to death.

If they survive the version "5" (-ish) slump and get very disciplined and clean up their act they can then have a long slow life, like a small star.

Rayek
09-20-2016, 05:26 PM
I did see your name on a few posts in that thread so while youīre no user you clearly have opinions on the matter. I donīt get why youīre so evasive about it. And given that the theme songs for your posts are usually 1)Blender Heaven and 2)Open Source Delights (in that order) I have a hard time seeing what a Layout/Modeller consolidation has to offer you. Itīs not like LW can compete on price, right? Maybe GPU rendering? Nope. (Could probably go on and on.....)

Ah, wait, yes indeed I did express my opinion two times in that Modo thread in two short sentences about Modo's preview and the shader tree - the thing is, with each new release of Modo I download the trial and test it - and I did use Modo in the past for short jobs. I dislike Modo's shader tree - always have - with a vengeance (my personal opinion). And the preview is okay, but does not compare to Blender's GPU accelerated preview panels (again my opinion).

As for Lightwave, I have been using it since Amiga days, and just call me nostalgic. Price is not that important to me.

PS I have an intrinsic interest in 3d apps since I first rendered wireframe models on an Amstrad 664. I worked in most 3d software throughout the years, starting with Sculpt-Animate 3d and VideoScape on the Amiga.

Wickedpup
09-20-2016, 05:40 PM
Price is not that important to me.

http://community.thefoundry.co.uk/discussion/post.aspx?f=4&t=125563&p=1046130

Come again? :hey:

Rayek
09-21-2016, 12:47 AM
http://community.thefoundry.co.uk/discussion/post.aspx?f=4&t=125563&p=1046130

Come again? :hey:

Nah, talking about two different things: perceived value versus having the financial means to purchase software. I have the financial means to purchase the software I need/want, but I do not think Modo is worth the current asking price. Again, my personal opinion.

Trouble is, human language, especially taken out of context and without body language can be interpreted in various ways.