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gamedesign1
09-07-2016, 07:48 AM
I think I hate Lightwave bone rigging haha.
It just doesn't seem like a very good workflow at all.
I don't want to use Genoma at this point, because I want to understand all the specifics about how a rig works and Genoma seems to kind of take that away from you and does everything for you.
I started off years ago making my rigs in Modeler using Skelegons. This is fine but once you have setup all of your rotation limits and IK etc in Layout if you need to change the rig a bit you can't really go back and start changing the Skelegons in Modeler because I would then have to reconvert it and lose all of my setup in Layout. But creating rigs purely in Layout is very clunky. I hate how you can't just drag bone points around in Layout you have to adjust Rest Length and then you have to move the child bone to match the rest length of its parent. I noticed there was a Maya Style Bones option, so I started to use that (which does allow you drag the joints, but I sometimes get weird unpredictable things happening when setting up.
You need to have the ease of setup like Skelegons but in Layout, not Modeler. Obviously this will be addressed in future releases of LightWave if they combine the two.

But does anyone have some good pointers for me to follow when rigging in LightWave (that doesn't involve me spending more money on plugins)?

I use 2105.3

Thanks guys


EDIT: I'm actually getting a bit more of a hang of it now just using Layouts bone creation and setup using Maya style bones.
But please still let me know your thoughts and tips on your best ways of bone rigging :)

RebelHill
09-07-2016, 07:51 AM
You can drag bone positions around in layout (tip/joint move tools), and setup from scratch is really quite simple once you're aware of all the lil bits to keep track of (mainly parent space and getting your LRAs inline).

Everything you could want or need to know is here... http://rebelhill.net/html/rhr.html

gamedesign1
09-07-2016, 08:17 AM
You can drag bone positions around in layout (tip/joint move tools), and setup from scratch is really quite simple once you're aware of all the lil bits to keep track of (mainly parent space and getting your LRAs inline).

Everything you could want or need to know is here... http://rebelhill.net/html/rhr.html

Thankyou I will take a look through :)

gamedesign1
09-07-2016, 09:30 AM
You can drag bone positions around in layout (tip/joint move tools).....

The ability to undo actions from the BT_TipMover and BT_Joint_mover would be nice :) I'm guessing it's a limitation of LightWave at the moment

kyuzo
09-07-2016, 09:57 AM
If you want to understand and learn rigging in Lightwave, Rebel Hill's stuff is brilliant.

Seriously, just give him your money now.

:)

gamedesign1
09-07-2016, 10:05 AM
If you want to understand and learn rigging in Lightwave, Rebel Hill's stuff is brilliant.

Seriously, just give him your money now.

:)

I'm watching his free tutorials at the moment :)

Kryslin
09-07-2016, 10:21 AM
I'll second Kyuzo's recommendation, just give him your money now.

It's worth it. I'd also give him your money for RHiggit2, I'd recommend the Pro version.

gamedesign1
09-07-2016, 10:24 AM
I'll second Kyuzo's recommendation, just give him your money now.

It's worth it. I'd also give him your money for RHiggit2, I'd recommend the Pro version.

Yeah I can see his plugins look great. But I am not spending money on plugins at the moment. So I am just looking to make the most of the core tools at the moment.
Thanks for the recommendation though :)

Ryan Roye
09-07-2016, 01:26 PM
Depending on your needs in character rigging you'll want to consider IKBooster as a possible option. Setup time is a fraction of that in conventional rigging; making/altering your character rigs is made effortless, there's no scene overhead problems to deal with, and best of all it is included as a part of native Lightwave. There are also certain types of rigs you simply cannot coherently create without it...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6B-bjJ2mHA

IKBooster is a part-time IK system, which is why it works the way it does and why it is so flexible. This also means that your inbetween-frame results require baking in order to finalize an animation... this works much better for animators who want to spend less time rigging and have a strong understanding of the skill of animation itself, in contrast to the "attempt to automate everything" approach.

IKBooster can also be combined with normal IK, and it isn't uncommon for people to use full time IK leg setups that use IKBooster for every other part of the character.

Although I do offer commercial learning content in the subject of IKBooster, I did make a full and proper manual for the toolset which you can access here: http://delura.tanadrine.com/IKBooster/IKB_UserManual.html ... it is a very powerful lightwave tool that should not be overlooked.

gamedesign1
09-07-2016, 04:36 PM
Depending on your needs in character rigging you'll want to consider IKBooster as a possible option. Setup time is a fraction of that in conventional rigging; making/altering your character rigs is made effortless, there's no scene overhead problems to deal with, and best of all it is included as a part of native Lightwave. There are also certain types of rigs you simply cannot coherently create without it...

IKBooster is a part-time IK system, which is why it works the way it does and why it is so flexible. This also means that your inbetween-frame results require baking in order to finalize an animation... this works much better for animators who want to spend less time rigging and have a strong understanding of the skill of animation itself, in contrast to the "attempt to automate everything" approach.

IKBooster can also be combined with normal IK, and it isn't uncommon for people to use full time IK leg setups that use IKBooster for every other part of the character.

Although I do offer commercial learning content in the subject of IKBooster, I did make a full and proper manual for the toolset which you can access here: http://delura.tanadrine.com/IKBooster/IKB_UserManual.html ... it is a very powerful lightwave tool that should not be overlooked.

I had heard of it before, but never tried it. Thanks for reminding me Ryan, I will try it now :)

gamedesign1
09-07-2016, 09:36 PM
I am having trouble choosing between ZAxi boness, Joints and Maya Style Joints.

When using ZAxis bones I have to use the tip and joint movers for tweaking the bones, but they don't support UNDO and you can't align the bones as there is no wsy of inputting position values or snapping. Any ideas on how to solve those issues?

The Joints are a bit annoying when creating child bones as you have to keep changing the new child bone to "Joint" as it doesn't try to match the type of its parent.

The Maya style bones seem have very differnt deformations from LightWave ZAxis bones and I can't seem to get the hang of them.

prometheus
09-08-2016, 12:21 AM
yeah..ik booster is fun once you use it often, I still havenīt used it enough, and I may consider picking up on Ryans tute, but I will probably wait til the next lw release.
I am curious though how IK booster will be maintained in the next lighwave..if at all, and if there is anything more done to improve it.
I think that how they implemented IK booster was a bit of a riddle, in terms of that it is not easy to find, or apply in to the scene, I may even argue that perhaps it would have been better off consolidated in to itīs onw module window, cause putting it on the modify buttons without any description on how to apply it, and then showing up discretly on the right side of the animation bar with no grasping of what you could acess from there, that was a mistake I think...I reckon it could have been used a lot more otherwise

cool thing is that you could just draw, or even coply edges to create a simple rig in modeler..convert to skelegons in modeler, then send to layout and apply ik booster, at least for simple stuff.
Ik boosters dynamics may be useful since it can be used for cables, or interact with both particle collision, collisions and wind etc, might be easier to set up than the bullet bone dynamics..though I need to evaluate that more.

gamedesign1
09-08-2016, 05:02 AM
yeah..ik booster is fun once you use it often, I still havenīt used it enough, and I may consider picking up on Ryans tute, but I will probably wait til the next lw release.
I am curious though how IK booster will be maintained in the next lighwave..if at all, and if there is anything more done to improve it.
I think that how they implemented IK booster was a bit of a riddle, in terms of that it is not easy to find, or apply in to the scene, I may even argue that perhaps it would have been better off consolidated in to itīs onw module window, cause putting it on the modify buttons without any description on how to apply it, and then showing up discretly on the right side of the animation bar with no grasping of what you could acess from there, that was a mistake I think...I reckon it could have been used a lot more otherwise

cool thing is that you could just draw, or even coply edges to create a simple rig in modeler..convert to skelegons in modeler, then send to layout and apply ik booster, at least for simple stuff.
Ik boosters dynamics may be useful since it can be used for cables, or interact with both particle collision, collisions and wind etc, might be easier to set up than the bullet bone dynamics..though I need to evaluate that more.

Yeah I totally agree the IKBooster needs a better UI.

I wanted to avoid using skelegons and just create what I need in Layout.

RebelHill
09-08-2016, 05:38 AM
Zaxis and joints do different things and deform in different ways... maya style joints are just zaxis bones but with a different draw style, most commonly used for imported scenes.

Also... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iJ3QHQmkYA

Ryan Roye
09-08-2016, 06:02 AM
I don't like joints because it is impossible to visualize their true orientation properly, and it can make selections more tedious at times (being unable to change weight maps by selecting the base joint itself, forcing you to always rely on mouse clicking to do this). Joints are also subject to rotation snapping issues when position is involved, a problem z axis bones don't have. However, there are times where you do need joints... it is easier to achieve clean stretching with them, they are handy for piston constraints, and in certain cases it is expected that you use them (IE: when importing a daz character into the scene via FBX). The upside is that you can switch between the two without messing up your rig.

The undo system leaves a little to be desired in Lightwave Layout, but things like undoing your keyframes and viewport manipulations usually work well enough. I suggest enabling "autokey management" in your general preferences, as by default the undo function will not alter the keyframes in your timeline... why this is default remains a mystery to this day.

gamedesign1
09-08-2016, 06:43 AM
I don't like joints because it is impossible to visualize their true orientation properly, and it can make selections more tedious at times (being unable to change weight maps by selecting the base joint itself, forcing you to always rely on mouse clicking to do this). Joints are also subject to rotation snapping issues when position is involved, a problem z axis bones don't have. However, there are times where you do need joints... it is easier to achieve clean stretching with them, they are handy for piston constraints, and in certain cases it is expected that you use them (IE: when importing a daz character into the scene via FBX). The upside is that you can switch between the two without messing up your rig.

The undo system leaves a little to be desired in Lightwave Layout, but things like undoing your keyframes and viewport manipulations usually work well enough. I suggest enabling "autokey management" in your general preferences, as by default the undo function will not alter the keyframes in your timeline... why this is default remains a mystery to this day.

Thanks for the pointers Ryan :)

gamedesign1
09-08-2016, 06:51 AM
Take a look at this. I love how you can position the Maya Style Joints, but it obviously affects the deformations when you position the joints rather than rotating them when setting up.
If you look at the bottom example where I have switched the Maya Style off again, it clearly shows how the positioning has affected the bones. If the normal ZAxis bones could be positioned the same way you can drag the joints around that would be a really nice feature. Or even if there was a plugin that could rotate the bones and change rest length to match how they appear when they are Maya Joints. I hope that makes sense, its difficult to describe.

gamedesign1
09-08-2016, 07:00 AM
I'm gonna try and see if I can make a plugin that does it :) Wish me luck haha

RebelHill
09-08-2016, 07:09 AM
You obviously missed my previous post... the plugin is made. Also... you're still misunderstanding the use of maya style.

gamedesign1
09-08-2016, 07:26 AM
You obviously missed my previous post... the plugin is made. Also... you're still misunderstanding the use of maya style.

Sorry, which plugin did you mean? I took at look at your Rhiggit plugin and I couldn't see anything in there that allowed me to position bones in the same way as positioning Maya Joints. I do understand that Maya joints are different from ZAxis bones. All I am saying is I like the way you can click and drag the Joints around and being able to snap them to other joints to keep them inline etc. Does that makes sense?

RebelHill
09-08-2016, 07:31 AM
The video in my previous post (#14)... see how you can drag, align, set bones (or whatever else). And NO... maya joints are NOT different to Zaxis... they are only a different draw style on zaxis bones. All this stuff about the different bones joints, and the specifics of each and where/when you'd want to use one or the other is in the tutorial series. All the answers you want are there.

gamedesign1
09-08-2016, 07:43 AM
The video in my previous post (#14)... see how you can drag, align, set bones (or whatever else). And NO... maya joints are NOT different to Zaxis... they are only a different draw style on zaxis bones. All this stuff about the different bones joints, and the specifics of each and where/when you'd want to use one or the other is in the tutorial series. All the answers you want are there.

HI RH, thanks for your advice. I am not explaining myself properly, I know that Maya Joints work the same as ZAxis bones, when I said they are different I am talking about the visual interaction with them.

Thanks so much, you are right I did miss your post :) That is exactly what I wanted, the Orient Hierachy and Set Rest Length :) You have saved me a lot of work :)

RebelHill
09-08-2016, 08:17 AM
Sure, but you're missing the important point that they ARE zbones simply with a different icon. The interaction you speak of is an illusion, as the parent joints arent aligned to the child just by action of dragging it. You're imagining it's doing something which its not. There's next to no good reason at all to use maya style when creating in LW, they're mainly of use for importing from other apps.

gamedesign1
09-08-2016, 09:04 AM
Sure, but you're missing the important point that they ARE zbones simply with a different icon. The interaction you speak of is an illusion, as the parent joints arent aligned to the child just by action of dragging it. You're imagining it's doing something which its not. There's next to no good reason at all to use maya style when creating in LW, they're mainly of use for importing from other apps.

I do totally understand they are the same and just visually different. But to me moving bones around as ZAxis bones is not visually very good because as you move the bones around to where you want them, visually the bones come apart and they don't point at each other. So it just looks odd while rigging. So all I am saying is I like using the Maya Style while I am creating and positioning the bones because visually they stay together.

When I say "ZAXIS bones" and "Maya Style Joints" I am just referring to the different visual options, I am not saying they are different bones. I hope that clears that up haha :)

Maybe I should have said "Maya Style Joint ON" or "Maya Style Joint OFF"