PDA

View Full Version : absolutely baffled by FiberFX



sadkkf
09-04-2016, 01:50 PM
Hi--

Trying to replicate a dog's tail:

134301

Seems easy enough, but I'm getting nowhere close:

134302

My settings:

134303

First off, the colors I'm choosing aren't rendering and what's with the striping? Ugh.

Any pointers will be much appreciated.

Kryslin
09-04-2016, 02:14 PM
Things I have learned about FiberFX:

For max coverage, stay at 100% density, and start increasing cluster and cluster radius. Try 100% Density, Cluster = 5 and cluster radius = 5mm.

I've never used volume only; Try Thick (Camera Aligned). I'm sure Volume Only has it's uses, but I've not found any yet.

Under rendering, try Point Sample with reduced Self Shadow and cast shadow (20%). Interpolated shadows tend to give mach banding, which your showing in your test.

Finally, you'll need to style your fur so that follows the geometry; edit guides in layout works well, but it's all or nothing. You can also use FIberFX in Modeler to generate a bias map, and use that as well.

prometheus
09-04-2016, 04:08 PM
Things I have learned about FiberFX:

For max coverage, stay at 100% density, and start increasing cluster and cluster radius. Try 100% Density, Cluster = 5 and cluster radius = 5mm.

I've never used volume only; Try Thick (Camera Aligned). I'm sure Volume Only has it's uses, but I've not found any yet.

Under rendering, try Point Sample with reduced Self Shadow and cast shadow (20%). Interpolated shadows tend to give mach banding, which your showing in your test.

Finally, you'll need to style your fur so that follows the geometry; edit guides in layout works well, but it's all or nothing. You can also use FIberFX in Modeler to generate a bias map, and use that as well.


Well..if your dog is waving the tail in front of a mirror, I suspect you need fiberfx in volume mode for it to be visible in the mirror.

jwiede
09-04-2016, 04:22 PM
Any pointers will be much appreciated.

Sasquatch? :devil:

And if you need to see it in a mirror...

Sasquatch + refgen (http://www.kolumbus.fi/erkki.halkka/plugpak/)? :devil:

Sorry, I know there are folks here who've had success with FibreFx, but at least as many who've had nothing but problems. If you're dead set on using FFX, good luck, but as you're already having problems you might also want to consider other options (esp. if using Mac LW).

gamedesign1
09-04-2016, 05:02 PM
Sasquatch? :devil:

And if you need to see it in a mirror...

Sasquatch + refgen (http://www.kolumbus.fi/erkki.halkka/plugpak/)? :devil:

Sorry, I know there are folks here who've had success with FibreFx, but at least as many who've had nothing but problems. If you're dead set on using FFX, good luck, but as you're already having problems you might also want to consider other options (esp. if using Mac LW).

I didn't realize Sasquatch was still around. I just looked at their site and you can't seem to add it to a cart. Does it even work with 2015.3?

jwiede
09-04-2016, 05:28 PM
I didn't realize Sasquatch was still around. I just looked at their site and you can't seem to add it to a cart. Does it even work with 2015.3?

Ah, yeah, you can't purchase it anymore. You might be able to find another local LW user who has it, though, or try emailing Worley about it.

I'm not sure whether it works with 2015.3 on Windows (IIRC, might need to drop back to LW11 on Win, definitely need to drop back to pre-9.6.1 for it to work on Mac).

Dodgy
09-04-2016, 07:31 PM
Have a look at this. Hope it helps.

Kryslin
09-05-2016, 01:13 AM
Ah, yeah, you can't purchase it anymore. You might be able to find another local LW user who has it, though, or try emailing Worley about it.

I'm not sure whether it works with 2015.3 on Windows (IIRC, might need to drop back to LW11 on Win, definitely need to drop back to pre-9.6.1 for it to work on Mac).

It works just fine with Windows in 2015.3... for as long as that lasts. I find myself trying to get used to FFX, because when Lightwave++ comes out, Sasquatch, in all likelyhood, will not work at all. Of course, we may all be learning something new, if the FFX++ is completely different than the current one.

erikals
09-05-2016, 02:43 AM
Of course, we may all be learning something new, if the FFX++ is completely different than the current one.
the new FiberFX in 2017 should fix the render problems, as it's behaving like actual geometry (or something like that)

now, the render engine in 2017 is brand new though, so do expect a bug or two.  :)


more about FiberFX 2017 >
https://blog.lightwave3d.com/2015/11/fiberfx

------------

personally i'd make strands for the tail in Modeler, but i'm no FiberFX Pro, so unsure if this is the best way.
but i thought i would be?

sadkkf
09-05-2016, 07:10 AM
Thank you everyone!

Man, I spent *hours* on this yesterday and just shut off my PC in total frustration. The labels for settings just don't make sense to me. I'm going to use your suggestions to day and see what happens.

For the mirror comments...does that mean FFX doesn't cast reflections? Not a big deal for me this time...just really looking forward to Next. :)

Thank you all again!

sadkkf
09-05-2016, 07:17 AM
Have a look at this. Hope it helps.

This is fantastic! Thank you!

Dodgy
09-05-2016, 07:40 AM
FFX does cast reflections. Just turn on the Reflections toggle in the FFX Rendering>Shading tab.

MAUROCOR
09-05-2016, 08:12 AM
Could you share your scene, please? That would make it easier to help you.

jeric_synergy
09-05-2016, 11:18 AM
The labels for settings just don't make sense to me.
It's a problem-- I'm not even sure the coder is a native English speaker, that's how LITTLE sense the labels make.

And if he is a native speaker, he is terrible at it.

Kryslin
09-05-2016, 12:13 PM
I would say it's the use of ambiguous terminology that's confusing.

If memory serves, FiberFX is based off of Binary Art's Fiber Factory, and the one name that pops up is a Mr. Jon Tindall.

prometheus
09-05-2016, 12:17 PM
since we are talking about dogs and fibers here..
If you got acess to zbrush that is, and this one is using guides.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM305ysCy4s

prometheus
09-05-2016, 12:21 PM
William Vaughan has a lot of fiberfx covered as well..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqO5WDbNfDg

jeric_synergy
09-05-2016, 11:29 PM
If memory serves, FiberFX is based off of Binary Art's Fiber Factory, and the one name that pops up is a Mr. Jon Tindall.
Then I guess I'll go with "terrible"-- that name sounds very English-speaking to me.

The onus is still on management to make sure that names are clear and unambiguous.

sadkkf
09-06-2016, 09:38 AM
I would say it's the use of ambiguous terminology that's confusing.

If memory serves, FiberFX is based off of Binary Art's Fiber Factory, and the one name that pops up is a Mr. Jon Tindall.

I think you're right.

I've always expected LW to be more intuitive than this. Again, really looking forward to Next.

- - - Updated - - -


since we are talking about dogs and fibers here..
If you got acess to zbrush that is, and this one is using guides.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM305ysCy4s

Ha. I *JUST* bought ZBrush and am still learning the basics. I know of FiberMesh, but that's all. Is this something that could replace FFX in my workflow? Really need to check into this.


Edit: Okay. After watching that video, I see ZBrush makes guides, not fibers. This is very cool. Thanks!

jeric_synergy
09-06-2016, 10:41 AM
I've always expected LW to be more intuitive than this. Again, really looking forward to Next.
IMO, the subsystems are a MESS. I think they are 'designed' further away from management, and they are not as well done as the main app. Even the template UI for the subsystems is rubbish, and it's downhill from there.

That said, IMO the main app is quite intuitive and easy to grasp.

JoePoe
09-06-2016, 10:57 AM
Fiber-FX-Cheat-Sheets (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?88985-Fiber-FX-Cheat-Sheets)

WilliamV is calling them old back in '08. Still relevant now. Ahhhh progress.

jwiede
09-06-2016, 11:05 AM
Fiber-FX-Cheat-Sheets (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?88985-Fiber-FX-Cheat-Sheets)

William is calling them old back then. Still relevant now. Ahhhh progress.

Now, quickly, what's the difference between "clump" and "tuft"? :devil:

Honestly, too often feels like adding provision for tooltips into the UI engine (and populating them for the existing systems) should be the highest-priority development task of all. There are even many ways LW3DG could address the issue within the constraints of the existing UI engine.

JoePoe
09-06-2016, 11:12 AM
Now, quickly, what's the difference between "clump" and "tuft"? :devil:

Clearly Tuft is "tuftier" :D.

But seriously, (imho) one is brought inwards keeping square edges (i.e. pyramidal) and the other is round............. and tuftier :dance:.

jwiede
09-06-2016, 11:34 AM
But seriously, (imho) one is brought inwards keeping square edges (i.e. pyramidal) and the other is round............. and tuftier :dance:.

The sharp corners in the test sheets reflect the shape of the originating polygon. Of course, that raises the question whether retaining that shape is actually useful?

Jeric is correct, IMO, the naming is kinda... terrible.

prometheus
09-06-2016, 01:40 PM
I think you're right.

I've always expected LW to be more intuitive than this. Again, really looking forward to Next.

- - - Updated - - -



Ha. I *JUST* bought ZBrush and am still learning the basics. I know of FiberMesh, but that's all. Is this something that could replace FFX in my workflow? Really need to check into this.


Edit: Okay. After watching that video, I see ZBrush makes guides, not fibers. This is very cool. Thanks!

from what I have seen, cinema4d has way better combing and cutting, styling etc of hairguides compared to lightwave fiberfx styling guides(maybe the best Ivé seen), but lightwaves styling in fiberfx? I honestly think is horrible, I hope they plan to implement better brush editing tools for it in lightwave soon.
problem with zbrush fibers to lighwave, you can only edit a fixed amount and then you are pretty much stuck with that, until you find out that you need more guides or need to edit if further, then you would have to redo it ..go back to zbrush, then import to lightwave etc..while it is cool and nice to have that option, I donīt think it is a good workflow and we shouldnīt even have to go that route.

sadkkf
09-06-2016, 01:59 PM
from what I have seen, cinema4d has way better combing and cutting, styling etc of hairguides compared to lightwave fiberfx styling guides(maybe the best Ivé seen), but lightwaves styling in fiberfx? I honestly think is horrible, I hope they plan to implement better brush editing tools for it in lightwave soon.
problem with zbrush fibers to lighwave, you can only edit a fixed amount and then you are pretty much stuck with that, until you find out that you need more guides or need to edit if further, then you would have to redo it ..go back to zbrush, then import to lightwave etc..while it is cool and nice to have that option, I donīt think it is a good workflow and we shouldnīt even have to go that route.

C4D has a lot better of just about everything it seems. Sigh.

I get what you're saying about the extra steps for ZBrush. I need to play with it when time allows. Will GOZ help with that at all?

erikals
09-06-2016, 02:23 PM
C4D has a lot better of just about everything it seems. Sigh.

afaik, not really.

Ztreem
09-06-2016, 02:25 PM
C4D has a lot better of just about everything it seems. Sigh.



No! Not everything. It is like with all other 3d packages, somethings is faster and easier other is not or missing completely. Rendering in C4D is not better or faster than LW. C4D has a quite bad viewport render , nothing compared to VPR. HDR lightstudio is working so freaking good in LW compared both to C4D and Keyshot. It all comes down to what you do and what you need and what you like.
I don't like C4D interface that much, others don't like LW's interface that much etc...

PS. I also like the price tag of LW and I don't like the price of C4D. :D

prometheus
09-06-2016, 02:31 PM
C4D has a lot better of just about everything it seems. Sigh.

I get what you're saying about the extra steps for ZBrush. I need to play with it when time allows. Will GOZ help with that at all?

as said..no not everything, there are most certainly areas where lightwave shines over cinema4d, styling of hair is however not one of them, nor beveling or mograph ease of use or sculpting since we do not have that..there are many other aspects where lightwave excels, also to consider that cinema4d is quite expensive.

goz may help with grooming, but fiberfx is applied in lightwave so in scenecontext you may find that you would need to groom differently in the end, and then you are stuck with a two app situation that isnīt working together in scene context, modifiying of hair is in my opinion vital to be able to perform within the software that should render it all...for ultimate and best control, that is not saying it isnīt helpful, cause it may be..but itīs not ideal, this one shows how easy it is...combing and cutting hair and also make scalp a collision object...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB9nbmfqUh8

erikals
09-06-2016, 02:43 PM
regarding C4D, in general, the Grass is Greener on the other side ?
not so sure...
http://www.c4dcafe.com/ipb/forums/topic/88386-so-what-happens-to-the-cafe-when-nigel-dumps-c4d/#comment-597832

though grooming certainly could be way better in LW
i think Greenlaw for example often creates the splines manually in Modeler

prometheus
09-06-2016, 02:43 PM
from khalid who does great birds and feathers...some styling tips with lightwave tools only..



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4AwtN1EK9E

prometheus
09-06-2016, 03:05 PM
regarding C4D, in general, the Grass is Greener on the other side ?
not so sure...
http://www.c4dcafe.com/ipb/forums/topic/88386-so-what-happens-to-the-cafe-when-nigel-dumps-c4d/#comment-597832

though grooming certainly could be way better in LW
i think Greenlaw for example often creates the splines manually in Modeler

Yeah..that may be related to overall impressions, but not specifically for hair.

regarding modeling in lightwave, sure, if you know how to use edges and curves and clone, extend and modfiy, that sure helps, I would push for the update artsphere did on his divide ege, if you simply draw two straight lines, with a sharp angle with polyline or extracted somwhere or made by strandmaker etc, two straight lines, then running artspheres divide edge will let you re-dividide with more points, then run realtime smooth..and the hard angle will be smoothed out as a round curve thanks to the re-divided edge, adding new divisions also let you " cut" away length.
path editor and path divider to redivide curves is also nice, a free plugin
https://www.lightwave3d.com/assets/plugins/entry/patheditorpathdivider/

you could also draw tubes like px_bezier with some lenght segments, then select the perpendicular ring edges and dissolve edges, wich will yield only guides running in itīs lenght direction, however..I tried that as experimental modeling.. and fiberfx crashed, so I need to revisit that.

I recall sensei seem to have had a good set of editing hair guides in modeler, not sure if he discarded it, he also was developing a volume render mode in layout, but I think he discarded that once fiberfx was out, but the modeling toolset for styling and cutting in modeler looked nice..I wonder where it went though?

prometheus
09-06-2016, 03:34 PM
I just tried blenders hair for the first time, took me some minutes to get hang of it, you need to be in object mode it seems for the hair strands to show up, and you have to add a particle system and change to hair to get acess to it, and it will also present a new particle edit sculpt brush, where you can choose comb and cut.
In general..the basic appliance and acess of hair in fiberfx ..isnīt initiuve and easy to acess, unless they have a certain addon that makes all this easier to acess..that said, it seems to be easy to comb and cut hair with..at least better than with lightwave modeling tools or guides in layout in my opinion, but I have to work some more with it to give a proper judgement on it.

erikals
09-06-2016, 03:47 PM
I recall sensei seem to have had a good set of editing hair guides in modeler, not sure if he discarded it, he also was developing a volume render mode in layout, but I think he discarded that once fiberfx was out, but the modeling toolset for styling and cutting in modeler looked nice..I wonder where it went though?
yes, it had potential, but got caught by the wind.

it might be that MagicBevel could be used to some extent, as it can draw a 2 point poly chain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IpRwDghvPk
though it requires some cleanup

-----------------

short conclusion as for making hair, i think LightWave has the worst hair guide tools of them all. (LoL) http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif
oh well.


path editor, it says 32/64 bit, but only the 32bit is available, it seems.
https://www.lightwave3d.com/assets/plugins/entry/patheditorpathdivider

hrgiger
09-06-2016, 04:41 PM
Things I have learned about FiberFX. Wait til the next version to see if its any better.

prometheus
09-06-2016, 05:09 PM
yes, it had potential, but got caught by the wind.

it might be that MagicBevel could be used to some extent, as it can draw a 2 point poly chain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IpRwDghvPk
though it requires some cleanup

-----------------

short conclusion as for making hair, i think LightWave has the worst hair guide tools of them all. (LoL) http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif
oh well.


path editor, it says 32/64 bit, but only the 32bit is available, it seems.
https://www.lightwave3d.com/assets/plugins/entry/patheditorpathdivider

Correct, someone needs to notify the database to showcase only 32 bit, or contact d-storm and make them change description or add 64 bit link if there is one.
I mostly use modeler in 32 bit though because the lack of all 64 bit stuff.

Yes..I knew you would jump in with that magic bevel trick...I had that in mind too.
then again, you could simply extend points roughly, then run artspheres divide and then real smooth to smooth the chain.

the path editor and divider only letīs you re-divide spline curves, for copied edges or strand maker pollychains you need artspheres divide edge, though I am not sure his update on his site is correct, he made a special version for dividing edges that are just edges and polychains, not sure if that is the same on the site.
http://www.artssphere.com/plugins/divideedge.php

otherwise that update should be somewhere here in one thread I canīt find now.

I also tried blender shortly, and itīs combing and cutting is pretty nice, and you can smooth comb nice flowing hair actually, then convert to mesh, then export to lightwave it came in to modeler quite nicely, then I converted it with strandmaker and merged points, but trying to activate it crashes layout all the time, I think it may confuse several materials, or it may be the normal map that is causing the crash, or something else that needs cleaning up in the vertex panel..Iīm working on it, if I can avoid the crashes, then blender might be quite nice..perhaps even better than zbrush for creating hairguides.
Though we really need better lw brush tools directly in layout for combing and cutting.

prometheus
09-06-2016, 05:11 PM
Things I have learned about FiberFX. Wait til the next version to see if its any better.

well ..yes, sort of good to keep in mind, but meanwhile I am learning the hair tools in blender, the combing seems nice anyway.

bobakabob
09-06-2016, 05:13 PM
134362

For character hair I had to move on from FiberFX as it just felt like a black art. I recommend using Zbrush fibermesh exporting to LW. You can work quickly and intuitively, though it's an extra investment. Here's an example attached. The examples on the LW next blog look much improved so hopefully LW will finally have a quality hair system.

prometheus
09-06-2016, 05:32 PM
I managed to sort out the crash from blender guides, it was one point polys, so once imported to lightwave.. you have to open the vertex panel and select those and delete them, it may change the length a bit though, I have to investigate further though.. but it fixed the crashing issue, so now it works to simply paint a weightmap on your figure in blender, add particle system/hair type and choose weightmap as hair density, then go to particle edit and comb away or cut the hair as you want, when finnished combing, make sure to switch to object mode because otherwise the convert button wanīt show up, then just export out to object format, run strandmaker, merge points and delete one point polys, send to layout and apply fiberfx.

Initial impression is that blender may be a better tool to use than zbrush actually, but I have to work a bit more with both of them to evaluate it properly.

In blender you can place individual strands as well with the particle edit tool, and also respecting gap, and with deflect emitter on, it is supposed to avoid strands going in to the mesh while combing.

Note..even if you created your guides in blender with styling, you can open lightwave layouts edit guide and continue to edit if that is needed.

erikals
09-06-2016, 06:02 PM
wonder is 3rdPowers tools could style 2 point poly chains... could be.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMhSFBCuQok


yep, certainly Blender is an option.

prometheus
09-06-2016, 06:20 PM
wonder is 3rdPowers tools could style 2 point poly chains... could be.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMhSFBCuQok


yep, certainly Blender is an option.

perhaps, unfortunatly he didnīt showcase any styling of guides, just cages for poly deformation, but shouldnīt be impossible..his tool looks awesome anyway, I do wish they could somehow implement the new geometric engine boost to also crossover to the model part, or inside layout..at least someway for the lw brush to take advantage of the performance boost ala chronosculpt as well, when that is done, they only need to dress the toolset up with fancy icon brushes...and some more new tech.

(none fiberfx related)the fact that you can sculpt in geo resolution with blender if you set your brush strength to zero..but with dynatopo active, allows you to paint in more resolution or shift it to lower resolution and paint that in..in fact in a better way than sculptris, and with hook snake tool and dynatopo on, you can get really nice sculpt peaks that continuously adds new geo while sculpting.
So lw brush is nice..while it doesnīt have the capacity for sculpting in high res I think as blender does, neither add dynatopic resolutions while sculpting, though for editing lower subpatched organic figures it may be great.

Back to blender guides, the combing and cutting is really nice, when I look at it..blender says cut, and that is what it do..you need to set draw step to be above 1 in the particle edit brush draw settings for cut to work though..but then it cuts nicely exactly based on the brush radius.

In Lightwave ..you got to edit guides and use scale and right click and drag the brush to scale down, and it doesnīt seem to cut exactly, more shrinking with not as accurate result, and another thing that makes the edit brush in lightwave a bit awkward, when you hover your mouse..your brush will not follow the cursor, it is fixed in the scene until you click and drag it..wich makes it hard to over over exact areas without going a route around the areas to comb, and you can not place the brush over the guides first in the middle of some desired area..I donīt like that at all, in blender the brush radius is free to move and follows the mouse cursor without affecting the guides on till you left mouse click and start to comb affect it..itīs almost completly the other way around with edit guides..and that is no good in my opinion.

I need to record this blender to ligthwave flow later.

prometheus
09-06-2016, 06:58 PM
I was shouting Yay before I was over the river, I am currently having nightmare crashes still, donīt know why I got it working for a while when cleaning up the guides, it could be a case of how the cutting in my other tests, or something very unstable with fiberfx in 2015 as it often has been before.

tried with 11.6.3 and it didnīt crash, on the other hand I donīt get the fibers to show up..which means it doesnīt recognize it, sigh...well, I am stubborn and wonīt give up..so while my fiddlings with crashing fiberx will cause my already bald spot become more bald, eventually I hope to figure out the secrets of hair:D maybe green tea or pig urine on my head will do the trick? I read something that some hormones extracted from pig urine could be used as fertilizer to even grow limbs..so why not:D

erikals
09-06-2016, 07:56 PM
there are ways to get hair in the real world these days, but just like with FiberFX, it is time consuming. :)

but not impossible, and luckily it's not often one has to put fur or such on a character, unless you work at Zootopia.

http://e.rpp-noticias.io/medium/2016/04/06/275127_113844.jpg

erikals
09-06-2016, 08:05 PM
LightWave FiberFX example, by David Agüero


https://vimeo.com/59547582

prometheus
09-06-2016, 09:20 PM
there are ways to get hair in the real world these days, but just like with FiberFX, it is time consuming. :)


http://e.rpp-noticias.io/medium/2016/04/06/275127_113844.jpg

chuckle:jester:

real world hair..as you say, it takes time and money and may not be worth it, I could just start shaving it off completly soon, otherwise I am looking to much like crusty the clown:D

I have tried to use 1 point polys and extend but there is something there that isnīt playing nice once in layout with fiber fx, I tried to use px bezier with tubes and also magic bevel and extruded polys, then selecting only the lenght edges and deleting the rest and use for guides, but I think the way the edges are created in point order matters for fiberfx, so you get fiberfx with split straws going off in various directions based on point order it seems.

if I however convert spline guides or draw with line pen, that will all be fine, but copy and paste edges or extending from 1 point polys..seems trickier to get right...even if I convert it with strand maker, I tested a lot from deleting 1 vertices polys..merging points, converting to strandmaker but either I get straws built up in weird point order, or I do not get it to show at all, or I get crashes, or once trying to edit the guides in layout they only have editable points in the end and beginning which makes it useless.

during this ordeal, I find that curves can be rendered quite nicely, I am not sure which version it adapted splines to be directly renderable, anyway..if I draw with the line pen, I can create line renders that is straight, or if I increase the fiberfx fiber smooth, they can be rendered as smooth cuved angles, using various gradients in the fiber thickness allows for tapering of ends quite nicely and you can get extremly thin line curve renders, I also used displacement ripples on the curves and with motion blur with long blur length..you can get a trapcode style render, and itīs cool since you can mix tip and end colors for nice effects, I have to show this later.

prometheus
09-06-2016, 09:23 PM
And for going back to the initial topic..regarding direction of fibers on surface, you could use fiberfx strandmodeler guides and tweak a few of them with combing, that will yield a vertex map, you can use instead of the guides..to direct the fibers based on the vmap bias...
Hereīs our hero William Vaughan again showcasing that...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plkD1RM75k0&spfreload=5

tonyrizo2003
09-06-2016, 10:45 PM
besides greenlaw, get a hold of René Falk Thomasius on facebook, https://www.facebook.com/safarifx?fref=nf he has an incredible knowledge of FFX

prometheus
09-06-2016, 11:07 PM
besides greenlaw, get a hold of René Falk Thomasius on facebook, https://www.facebook.com/safarifx?fref=nf he has an incredible knowledge of FFX

Canīt reach it..not on facebook, and it says it isnīt available.

prometheus
09-06-2016, 11:11 PM
aHH...forgot it is Lightwave guru.
He should manage some things in a playlist if he can...
https://www.youtube.com/user/safarifx2010/search?query=fiberfx

Kryslin
09-07-2016, 12:52 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/Kryslin/Renders/th_ffx-110715_zpsrzd65wwx.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Kryslin/media/Renders/ffx-110715_zpsrzd65wwx.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/Kryslin/Renders/th_ffx_milestone_zpsizyqjgo7.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Kryslin/media/Renders/ffx_milestone_zpsizyqjgo7.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/Kryslin/Kryslin%20Mk%20II/Onyx%20and%20Snowflake/th_wip_onyx_01Jul16_zpsjxj2pq1l.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Kryslin/media/Kryslin%20Mk%20II/Onyx%20and%20Snowflake/wip_onyx_01Jul16_zpsjxj2pq1l.jpg.html)

Most of my character work involves fully furred characters, as pictured above. That was done in Fiber FX, sometime last year. I normally use Sasquatch, mainly because of the simple bias combing controls. To achieve the same in FiberFX I had to write my own Bias Combing tool in lScript - while generating the map is trivial, the math to get the correct combing effect is non-trivial (I learned A LOT about vectors writing that tool).

I'll second the call for some hair guide grooming tools; comb, cut, curl, wave, etc.; Also, some procedural bias combing tools would be very useful, and probably much faster than my poor excuse of a bias map generator in lScript. Tweaking said bias combing map, once generated, is a pain. I've got an idea (or two) I need to work on (but I need more time).

prometheus
09-07-2016, 02:53 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/Kryslin/Renders/th_ffx-110715_zpsrzd65wwx.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Kryslin/media/Renders/ffx-110715_zpsrzd65wwx.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/Kryslin/Renders/th_ffx_milestone_zpsizyqjgo7.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Kryslin/media/Renders/ffx_milestone_zpsizyqjgo7.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/Kryslin/Kryslin%20Mk%20II/Onyx%20and%20Snowflake/th_wip_onyx_01Jul16_zpsjxj2pq1l.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Kryslin/media/Kryslin%20Mk%20II/Onyx%20and%20Snowflake/wip_onyx_01Jul16_zpsjxj2pq1l.jpg.html)

Most of my character work involves fully furred characters, as pictured above. That was done in Fiber FX, sometime last year. I normally use Sasquatch, mainly because of the simple bias combing controls. To achieve the same in FiberFX I had to write my own Bias Combing tool in lScript - while generating the map is trivial, the math to get the correct combing effect is non-trivial (I learned A LOT about vectors writing that tool).

I'll second the call for some hair guide grooming tools; comb, cut, curl, wave, etc.; Also, some procedural bias combing tools would be very useful, and probably much faster than my poor excuse of a bias map generator in lScript. Tweaking said bias combing map, once generated, is a pain. I've got an idea (or two) I need to work on (but I need more time).


I followed williams tutes on vmap bias and editing guides in modeler fiberfx, a bit tricky to use the guides, but it combs nicely after some work, I need to use it more though.
blenders combing and cutting is sweet, the cool thing is that it is easier to get starting with weight paint, you simply switch to weight paint...without the need to change display or create any map initially, just paint on and name the vertex group, then switch to add a particle emitter and set it to hair and set itīs vertex group to that weight map..the cool thing is when you go back to weight paint, the hair density updates in realtime with the fiberstrands.
Converting works to ..and importing to lightwave, the problem is when cleaning up or converting to strandmaker, I only got this seemingly working once..the first time I tried it, after that I either got crashes or problems with the guides not having proper point order, thus fiberfx treats it unconnected with a result of clumping fibers not following the strands continuously.
merging points often results in crash..as in always it seems, unless keeping 1 point polys...if I only could sort this out...cause blender is way better to style the hair with than lightwave..or maybe I should render it all in blender.

prometheus
09-07-2016, 03:05 AM
I think I am on to the problem with my crashes and errogenous guides, If I check point order in imported obj mesh, the order is correct, but after saving out to lwo and closing and reopen, the point order is screwed up.

erikals
09-07-2016, 03:10 AM
Kryslin, like before, you might wanna sell the plugin? through Liberty3D or such?


ok, round 1...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLzPWHTpLfs

erikals
09-07-2016, 03:13 AM
round 2...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Naf17BxxabY

prometheus
09-07-2016, 03:56 AM
round 2...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Naf17BxxabY

you need to check volume only in the fiberfx tab for it to show in VPR.

Strange..I got something screwed up either with strandmaker or my create 1 point poly, I guess you did run create/polygons and create 1 point polygons before magic bevel..right, after I run my strandmaker and in to fiberfx I got werd sprouting and itīs not the other settings, all styling is zerod out including gravity.

And what lightwave version did you use here?

erikals
09-07-2016, 04:12 AM
running LightWave 11.6 over here

-create 1 point polys
-use MagicBevel
-copy 2 point poly chain to new layer
-use ef toggle lines - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ED3HctngfQ
-use strand maker

that's it. should work.


you need to check volume only in the fiberfx tab for it to show in VPR
ah http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif knew it should work, thank you.

-------

p.s. if you share the scene i can give it a go.

prometheus
09-07-2016, 04:16 AM
running LightWave 11.6 over here

-create 1 point polys
-use MagicBevel
-copy 2 point poly chain to new layer
-use ef toggle lines - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ED3HctngfQ
-use strand maker

that's it. should work.

well the two first points are ok, but why copy the chain to a new layer?
and why use toggle lines.

I did as you did with the two first orders here, then used strandmaker, but that will create double polys it seems and thus the result is all screwed up, however..If I simply donīt use strandmaker..it will be all fine.

erikals
09-07-2016, 04:23 AM
why copy the chain to a new layer?
just to keep it clean, nothing else, not that important.

and why use toggle lines.
running 11.6 i'll have to as 11.6 can't render "FiberFX 2 point poly chains" directly.
one would need 2015.

there is also the thing that the FiberFX 2ppc is not a regular 2ppc,
the 2ppc strands have a 'special' 1pp at the root (or something like that)

so it could look like everything is fine, but isn't.

prometheus
09-07-2016, 04:24 AM
running LightWave 11.6 over here

-create 1 point polys
-use MagicBevel
-copy 2 point poly chain to new layer
-use ef toggle lines - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ED3HctngfQ
-use strand maker

that's it. should work.


ah http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif knew it should work, thank you.

-------

p.s. if you share the scene i can give it a go.


you mean from blender? from magic bevel is all sorted..except I can not use strandmaker since that screws it up, but it works as it is without strandmaker when created from magic bevel.
from blender is a different thing..I will record the blender process then post the export here tomorrow, I am dog tired ..been wrestling with the blender export for hours, and the sun is up..so I got to get to my coffin before it is too late.

erikals
09-07-2016, 04:31 AM
oh, you're at the blender side,

then i'd try to make the last 2 steps
-use ef toggle lines - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ED3HctngfQ
-use strand maker

and like i said above,



> and why use toggle lines <

running 11.6 i'll have to as 11.6 can't render "FiberFX 2 point poly chains" directly.
one would need 2015.

there is also the thing that the FiberFX 2ppc is not a regular 2ppc,
the 2ppc strands have a 'special' 1pp at the root (or something like that)

so it could look like everything is fine, but isn't.


afaik

prometheus
09-07-2016, 04:33 AM
running 11.6 i'll have to as 11.6 can't render "FiberFX 2 point poly chains" directly.
one would need 2015.

.

:confused::confused:

11.6 renders 2 point poly chains just fine, You must have ment curves? I can render my magic bevel lines without fiberfx and with fiberfx, since they are extruded with magic bevel from 1 point polys..so do I need to sleep on it :)?

erikals
09-07-2016, 04:42 AM
i didn't know 11.6 rendered a 2ppc as a FiberFX spline in Layout, are you sure?

i can render a FiberFX 2ppc (strand maker) and that works fine,
however, rendering a "pure" 2ppc, i don't think that works in 11.6

i'll give it a go.

-------------

edit: dang, it worked!  http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/eek.gif
not sure when that was added, i was so sure that it was a 2015 thing.

not sure when that function got added...

hah, well, thank you! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

-------------

but share the blender.obj, and i'll have a look

prometheus
09-07-2016, 05:42 AM
I will post blender export stuff tomorrow, and a sample of a simple magic bevel with strandmaker on, just to check whatīs going on.

regarding curves, You do know that you can draw a spline in modeler without converting it at all to a polychain or even use strandmaker ..just render it with fiberfx directly.. in 11.6.2 it works with fiberfx, though the open gl will present the actual spline curve badly unless adding custom object show curve.
when adding fiberfx directly on a spline, it will however only adapt sharp interpolation, unless you adjust fiber smooth ..then you should get an exact match with the spline, if gravity and styling kinks etc is turned off that is, if you set fiber smooth to zero..it will be straight angles.
so you can now render curves with the help of fiberfx, both from splines or draw with the line pen or magic bevel etc.

You could probably export out a motion path to modeler and make a chain or spline from that, then back to layout for applying fiber fx, and if you use fiber width and a texture gradient, you can have various thickness of the curve at the beginning and at the end so it tapers of if you want, could be useful for aeroplane paths etc, if you do not wish to do it with particles or inertia plugins and model the whole path.

prometheus
09-07-2016, 05:51 AM
curve samples...

134369


134370

Kryslin
09-07-2016, 10:15 AM
Kryslin, like before, you might wanna sell the plugin? through Liberty3D or such?

If I ever get it feature complete, I'll probably FOSS it (Free, Open Source Software), probably choosing one of the more generous licenses.

I've got a boatload of tools that I think many people would find useful that deal with spline generation. I've got nothing that combs a spline yet (pulls it straight along a plane, though I do have several ideas...), and my tools are kinda slow (it's lScript, after all - my skills in C are sorely lacking). The main reason I haven't put anything out there is the fact that they duplicate functionality that exists as a publisher's paid plugins - namely, the portion of Trueart's Easyspline kit that was bundled with the TrueHair styling tools that I did buy. That, and that I kinda suck at writing documentation and commenting my code.

jboudreau
09-07-2016, 12:28 PM
Hi--

Trying to replicate a dog's tail:

134301

Seems easy enough, but I'm getting nowhere close:

134302

My settings:

134303

First off, the colors I'm choosing aren't rendering and what's with the striping? Ugh.

Any pointers will be much appreciated.

Hey man

Are you still having issues with creating your dog tail.

Here's what I did in just a few minutes. I could get it too look like your picture if I spent some more time at it.

134379

If you are insterested I can share my scene with you

I noticed some people were saying that FFX was crashing a lot. From my experience, it crashes almost every time if you have VPR and the edit guides dialogue open at the same time. TIP: After you do all your combing close the dialogue window before running VPR and you shouldn't crash. Been using it for quite a bit and haven't crashed once since I started doing it this way.

I'm also been updating progress and TIPS that I find here

https://www.facebook.com/groups/lightwiki/permalink/897777936994873/

Hope this helps

Thanks,
Jason

jeric_synergy
09-07-2016, 03:33 PM
Good tips there!

erikals
09-07-2016, 03:46 PM
kind of doubtful, but one could hope, that the new ZBrush Core ($200) includes Fibermesh
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?202273-Announcing-ZBrushCore

yes, Core.

prometheus
09-07-2016, 11:27 PM
Hey man

Are you still having issues with creating your dog tail.

Here's what I did in just a few minutes. I could get it too look like your picture if I spent some more time at it.

134379

If you are insterested I can share my scene with you

I noticed some people were saying that FFX was crashing a lot. From my experience, it crashes almost every time if you have VPR and the edit guides dialogue open at the same time. TIP: After you do all your combing close the dialogue window before running VPR and you shouldn't crash. Been using it for quite a bit and haven't crashed once since I started doing it this way.

I'm also been updating progress and TIPS that I find here

https://www.facebook.com/groups/lightwiki/permalink/897777936994873/

Hope this helps

Thanks,
Jason

Itīs more than vpr, in my cases I had constant crashes trying to get the blender mesh guides to fiberfx, unless I ran strandmaker and even then it could crash, also if you merge points it may crash...now all of this testing was without vpr active, it just crashed when activating fiberfx...so believe a lot of it has to do with a proper polychain for it not to crash, as well as the polysegment and points need to be in correct order, or you will have fiberfx sprout out in branches from the various points and not following the strand guides properly.

Now...I think I may have tracked it down to solve my issues with the blender hairguides to lightwave, I happened to work with the direct mesh from blender, meaning I was cleaning up points and also using strandmaker on it directly...then I suddenly got on the right track..of course, I shouldnīt copy any of the mesh in poly mode, once imported to lightwave you should go to edge mode and select all, then copy and paste the edges to a new layer..delete the rest, from here you donīt even need to clean up more or even use strandmaker, it worked directly and with fiberfx following the strandguides correctly.

nevermind the poor mughshot ala nolte guides here, I will do better hairstyling later :) just showing that the blender to lightwave hair works, I need to ensure the workflow is correct during this day and then make notes for those who may want it.







http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=134383&d=1473312313




http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=134382&d=1473312115

prometheus
09-08-2016, 03:09 AM
yep...it seems the workflow is ok now..no more crashings, though I just worked on 11.6.2 ..still have to evaluate with 2015 as well.
just as long as I just select the whole imported mesh guides from blender in edge mode and copy and paste that to a second layer, and delete the other original mesh, it is all fine and working with fiberfx, without cleaning up or using strandmaker, point order is ok, the chain is consisting of 2 point polys per edge.
Now I just have to take the barbershop course. :)

next would be to compare actual render quality between fiberfx and blender cycles hair, to determine if it may be better to stay in blender for some hair renders, or if it may be worth to still use fiberfx in lightwave..since I prefer lightwave render and stage settings overall, using blender as hair and combing styler addin may be helpful at least considering the brush editing in layout isnīt that nice.
Then again it may have changed for the next lightwave version I think.

erikals
09-08-2016, 04:04 AM
heeey! :bowdown:

:)

this gives the LightWave <> Blender workflow additional points!


next would be to compare actual render quality between fiberfx and blender cycles hair, to determine if it may be better to stay in blender for some hair renders,
that's no competition, Blender hair in cycles looks awesome.
https://cgcookie.com/app/uploads/2015/07/web_01-1024x439.jpg

but not sure if hair in Blender Cycles beats LW hair in Octane.
it's probably a close match.

prometheus
09-08-2016, 06:32 AM
heeey! :bowdown:

:)

this gives the LightWave <> Blender workflow additional points!



that's no competition, Blender hair in cycles looks awesome.
https://cgcookie.com/app/uploads/2015/07/web_01-1024x439.jpg

but not sure if hair in Blender Cycles beats LW hair in Octane.
it's probably a close match.

well..I wasnīt that impressed with those, surely we can get equal output from fiberfx? at least not the right middle one, the left one may be trickier to get that depth on brown hair and specs.

Not sure when I can post a vid on blender lightwave...will see.

prometheus
09-08-2016, 07:04 AM
meanwhile while I learn to style hair in blender..hereīs some more fiberfx topic, if it somehow has passed by regular forums, a bit old perhaps..
https://www.lightwave3d.com/news/article/hair-glorious-hair/


and old sasquatch, styling brad pitt look a like..
http://worley.com/Tutorials/AkiraPitt/index.html

erikals
09-08-2016, 07:08 AM
I wasnīt that impressed with those

believe me, FiberFX is far away from that.

but there are tricks, such as post processing.

FiberFX 2017 is a new game (new render engine) so working on the FiberFX in 2015 might be a little redundant.
if it takes a lot of tweak-time that is.

prometheus
09-08-2016, 07:43 AM
believe me, FiberFX is far away from that.

but there are tricks, such as post processing.

FiberFX 2017 is a new game (new render engine) so working on the FiberFX in 2015 might be a little redundant.
if it takes a lot of tweak-time that is.


I will notice once I get up and running with cycles hair, then it needs to have darn good skin ss scattering as well.
Yes..we got new stuff coming up, so we have to wait and see on that, not sure if it is redundant to work in fiberfx..there is probably still a lot that can be learned and done, and especially since we do not know when the new lightwave comes.

erikals
09-08-2016, 08:29 AM
you should be able to get great results, strangely, Blender Cycles seems to have the best SSS / Hair Combo..

better than Octane   (unless no-one posted good hair renders in Octane, couldn't find any really good ones)


Blender Cycles, check it out >
https://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?379685-Skin-in-Cycles-Emily-2-1

https://blenderartists.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=396647&d=1440515552&thumb=1


but to be fair to Octane / LightWave (or try) rendering hair is about the last thing people do, and share.

prometheus
09-08-2016, 09:10 AM
you should be able to get great results, strangely, Blender Cycles seems to have the best SSS / Hair Combo..

better than Octane   (unless no-one posted good hair renders in Octane, couldn't find any really good ones)


Blender Cycles, check it out >
https://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?379685-Skin-in-Cycles-Emily-2-1

https://blenderartists.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=396647&d=1440515552&thumb=1


but to be fair to Octane / LightWave (or try) rendering hair is about the last thing people do, and share.



yes..that is looking darn good.
Just managed to get the hair to render in blender..and have a lot to read up on that and with materials, just learned how to use the particle hair system force field settings, by checking self effect ..then I can use vortex, turbulence or any other force effect to deform style the hair, so that is cool, probably even fluid algorithms.
Some really whacky cool hair effects can be made with this.

sadkkf
09-08-2016, 10:57 AM
Hey man

Are you still having issues with creating your dog tail.

Here's what I did in just a few minutes. I could get it too look like your picture if I spent some more time at it.

134379

If you are insterested I can share my scene with you

I noticed some people were saying that FFX was crashing a lot. From my experience, it crashes almost every time if you have VPR and the edit guides dialogue open at the same time. TIP: After you do all your combing close the dialogue window before running VPR and you shouldn't crash. Been using it for quite a bit and haven't crashed once since I started doing it this way.

I'm also been updating progress and TIPS that I find here

https://www.facebook.com/groups/lightwiki/permalink/897777936994873/

Hope this helps

Thanks,
Jason



Hey, that's nice! I'd love it you could share your scene. I especially love the white on the tip. That's kind of an important part of the tail for me. Thank you!

jboudreau
09-08-2016, 01:12 PM
Hey, that's nice! I'd love it you could share your scene. I especially love the white on the tip. That's kind of an important part of the tail for me. Thank you!

Hey man can I see how you made out so far?

Thanks,
Jason

sadkkf
09-10-2016, 07:09 AM
Hey man can I see how you made out so far?

Thanks,
Jason

I'll try to post something today. I work 6 days/week so my free time for fun projects like these is very limited.

sadkkf
09-10-2016, 04:08 PM
Here is the tail I'm pretty happy with.

134436

My next step is to attach this to another object. I don't suppose there's an easy way to apply FFX to only part of an object is there? Weight map?

Thanks again to everyone for all the help! I never would have made it this far without it.

Kryslin
09-10-2016, 04:50 PM
The easiest way is to make the tail a different surface than the rest of the character; FFX will apply itself to the surfaces you apply it to. If you need to apply different FFX settings to another part of the character, you will have to clone an instance of FFX, and apply it to the surfaces. And things will start to sllllllllloooooooooooooooooooooow down, a lot.

You could use a weight map to control density, too.

prometheus
09-10-2016, 05:35 PM
Here is the tail I'm pretty happy with.

134436

My next step is to attach this to another object. I don't suppose there's an easy way to apply FFX to only part of an object is there? Weight map?

Thanks again to everyone for all the help! I never would have made it this far without it.

You can paint weightmaps, or select points, polys and make weightmap for density, as well as use image maps or procedurals, so if you paint a map in some paint program and uv map it correctly is one way.

But for vmap bias, direction of fibers..you should use vertex maps, I posted that before with william vaughans vids, he has covered a lot of fiberfx and I urge you to look at them even if he uses older lightwave much is valid.


hereīs a search string on the lightwave videos with a lot of williams tutes on fiberfx gathered, also some great feather stuff from Khalid...
https://www.youtube.com/user/lightwavevideos/search?query=fiberfx

jboudreau
09-10-2016, 06:56 PM
Here is the tail I'm pretty happy with.

134436

My next step is to attach this to another object. I don't suppose there's an easy way to apply FFX to only part of an object is there? Weight map?

Thanks again to everyone for all the help! I never would have made it this far without it.

Hey man

It's looking really good,

Sorry for the delay I've been extremely busy. Here is that scene I promised you. I gave you two one where it's rendered as a volume and one where it's rendered as FiberFX pixel filter.

Hope this helps

Thanks,
Jason