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Ma3rk
08-16-2016, 04:58 PM
I'm taking on a project involving comping butterflies into live action. Fortunately none of the shots are CU and even though there'll be a ton of motion blur, I'd like to get the wing flaps correct and have speed control.

Searching in the forum, pretty much everything I found is 10+ years old & refers to Relativity &/or IK boost. I tried some of the older Relativity tutorials scenes and it seems there are some aspects broken with LW 2015.3 For example, clicking on the SELF or PARENT buttons after bringing up a Professor isn't entering that in the syntax line of the formula. You can manually enter it and the expression works, but what else might not be working now when I least expect it?

Basically what I'd like to do is define a keyframed wing flap cycle of say 25 frames and then somehow have a “Throttle” null in order to speed, slow, and even stop or reverse the movement. Is there a Motion Modifier or some expression or even a plug-in that would do this? Perhaps this is a Motion Mixer type task? I've never worked with it before to know.

Thanks in advance.

ernpchan
08-16-2016, 05:53 PM
There's this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZYD-AntO3E

Not sure it'll help you with what you want tho as it's more geared towards rotations and not cycles.

Ma3rk
08-16-2016, 07:31 PM
It's a compiled script so can't even see if there were any comments on using it in order to adapt.

Found a number of videos on Motion Mixer so will study those. I think that's the direction I need to go.

Prince Charming
08-16-2016, 08:16 PM
It's a compiled script so can't even see if there were any comments on using it in order to adapt.

Found a number of videos on Motion Mixer so will study those. I think that's the direction I need to go.

This can be done with node motion and dponts "speed time" node. I have used it in the past for this type of thing and it works well.

RebelHill
08-16-2016, 09:37 PM
Why not just save the wings animation as an MDD file, and then envelope the playback speed?

Ma3rk
08-16-2016, 11:12 PM
Why not just save the wings animation as an MDD file, and then envelope the playback speed?

Excellent idea RH. I'll give that a try tomorrow

Ma3rk
08-16-2016, 11:15 PM
This can be done with node motion and dponts "speed time" node. I have used it in the past for this type of thing and it works well.

Haven't played much with DPonts node motion tools so will have to check into that as well. Probably have to pick your brain a bit once I get the basics down.

Prince Charming
08-16-2016, 11:18 PM
Why not just save the wings animation as an MDD file, and then envelope the playback speed?

That will work as well (with native player). Speed time node can work on channels... If you wanted to keep deformations out of it for some reason.

RebelHill
08-16-2016, 11:19 PM
Excellent idea RH. I'll give that a try tomorrow

Its the simplest, most straight forward way.

Prince Charming
08-16-2016, 11:41 PM
It is the simplest... but its not the most flexible.
I personally would take the extra 3 min to set it up with speed time just so I didint have to bake out MDD deformations. Its not realistic to bake out an mdd every time you want to have this type of control (and its not necessary).
Animating the speed of an mdd will certainly work... quickly, but I dont agree that it is the best way to do this.

prometheus
08-17-2016, 05:56 AM
Perhaps just use a ripple procedural for the wings bones, and in the envelope graph editor for the ripple procedurals opacity ..make a gradient distance to object, and set it to a null ..and you make a dedicated null where it is supposed to land perhaps..or something?

Spinland
08-17-2016, 05:57 AM
Why not just save the wings animation as an MDD file, and then envelope the playback speed?

I think this should work quite well. Attached is a (admittedly rather simplistic version, compared to what it sounds like your project needs) clip where I used that technique plus swarm to add a few Adirondack butterflies to this commercial tourism spot.


https://youtu.be/0QFx_1jJI_A

Like I said, that is probably a much simpler effect than what you need but I think it came off well and ought to give you some fun in your project.

prometheus
08-17-2016, 06:08 AM
Mdd could work with envelope, perhaps add the proximity modifier so you can choose object to react nearby.

Prince Charming
08-17-2016, 09:49 AM
Here is the speed time set up... Keep in mind that you may get errors until you have motion on your control null.

https://youtu.be/XiFLAVn8e18

prometheus
08-17-2016, 09:58 AM
Here is the speed time set up... Keep in mind that you may get errors until you have motion on your control null.

https://youtu.be/XiFLAVn8e18

Thanks for sharing again..
Michael

Ma3rk
08-17-2016, 11:20 AM
Here is the speed time set up... Keep in mind that you may get errors until you have motion on your control null.


Much thanks. I wasn't sure where to even start with the nodal approach. I suspect this method would be best for the Hero butterfly and baked mdd for the flock.

Prince Charming
08-17-2016, 11:56 AM
Much thanks. I wasn't sure where to even start with the nodal approach. I suspect this method would be best for the Hero butterfly and baked mdd for the flock.

I would use this method for the heros (you can take samples down to 1 for better performance). I had ten clones controlled like this with one sample each and it was still responsive enough to work. Make sure you have "studio live" off or it will draaaaag.

I would use dp instancer for the rest. That will let you instance a hierarchy with an animation attached to it (2 wings and body), and then randomly effect that animation per instance. IMO that would be the best way with the tools available.

Prince Charming
08-17-2016, 12:52 PM
Here is dp instance version. You would of have to place them differently of course, but you get the idea.

https://youtu.be/JDHAb_F3HmE

Spinland
08-17-2016, 05:12 PM
Here is dp instance version. You would of have to place them differently of course, but you get the idea.

Those examples are simply effing amazing. So, yes: I grant your skills in nodal work approach godlike stature and I salute you. :bowdown:

(Yes, I told you guys people don't stay on my ignore list long. I just give it a day or two for tempers to cool—especially mine. Ignoring people long term on a forum like this is silly, everyone has great things to contribute.)

Prince Charming
08-17-2016, 05:35 PM
Those examples are simply effing amazing. So, yes: I grant your skills in nodal work approach godlike stature and I salute you. :bowdown:

(Yes, I told you guys people don't stay on my ignore list long. I just give it a day or two for tempers to cool—especially mine. Ignoring people long term on a forum like this is silly, everyone has great things to contribute.)

Glad you got something out of them...

Spinland
08-17-2016, 05:39 PM
Glad you got something out of them...

Thank you for sharing.

Ma3rk
08-17-2016, 06:30 PM
Here is dp instance version. You would of have to place them differently of course, but you get the idea.


Thanks again for this example P.C.

Is there a way to positionally "scatter" them &/or can you use the DP instanced items with flocking?

Prince Charming
08-17-2016, 08:20 PM
Thanks again for this example P.C.

Is there a way to positionally "scatter" them &/or can you use the DP instanced items with flocking?

You can put them on particles(flocking), or place them on points. You notice I have it set to pivot, so its places 100 instances on the pivot of the object I added the instancer to. You can still put them on points or particles like this but you would have to do it nodaly with "dp particle info", or "point info".

An easier way would be to add dp instancer to a particle emitter and set it to particles... And control the motion form the motion tab. This same set up could be done without nodes...

DAMAKERS
08-17-2016, 09:01 PM
Hello,

I did in a different way time ago with particles, intances offsetting the time with a texture, and wind turbulence. No nodes except for the wings color, to randomize them, a very simple workflow


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pnyq4olkLDc&feature=youtu.be

and here is the test scene

Particle Butterflies.zip (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3916518/Particle%20Butterflies.zip)

Ma3rk
08-18-2016, 12:13 AM
Hello,

I did in a different way time ago with particles, intances offsetting the time with a texture, and wind turbulence. No nodes except for the wings color, to randomize them, a very simple workflow

I'll take a closer look at this. Might work fine for deep background.

Danner
08-18-2016, 01:57 AM
I did something like this once but for bird wings, what I did was to have channel follower so when I rotated one null another null would rotate in the inverse direction. These nulls had children that in turn were the IK end of a chain of bones on the wings. So all I had to do to make the wings flap was to rotate one null.

Spinland
08-18-2016, 05:05 AM
Loving all the creative approaches to tackling this challenge. This is part of why I sometimes get an adrenaline rush from my job. :lightwave

raw-m
08-18-2016, 06:26 AM
Here is dp instance version. You would of have to place them differently of course, but you get the idea.

https://youtu.be/JDHAb_F3HmE
Nice, I like the use of randomising speed. Anyway to offset start time instead, or would it be going into mdd baking territory?

Prince Charming
08-18-2016, 08:49 AM
Nice, I like the use of randomising speed. Anyway to offset start time instead, or would it be going into mdd baking territory?

Yes, you can offset the start, or control the time directly. I just used speed for this demo, offset would have been better, or both.

Ma3rk
08-18-2016, 10:57 AM
Prince, I've a question going back to your example of Speed-time.

Since the DPont nodal tools consider non connected geometry as separate items, how would you position something like wings other than right on an axis? Your example is using the wings together as if right on top of the body and pivoting on Z. My bug's "wing spar" would be out a bit from center and more on the upper side of the body, more like a high-wing airplane.

Thanks.

Prince Charming
08-18-2016, 02:20 PM
Prince, I've a question going back to your example of Speed-time.

Since the DPont nodal tools consider non connected geometry as separate items, how would you position something like wings other than right on an axis? Your example is using the wings together as if right on top of the body and pivoting on Z. My bug's "wing spar" would be out a bit from center and more on the upper side of the body, more like a high-wing airplane.

Thanks.

Just to clarify... None of those tools used detected parts. The only reason they were considered separate is because of the gradient on the x axis. That is what was used to split the parts. You can use "part move" to do the same thing though.

I probably should have shown it used in a regular motion context instead of using nodal displacement. It would have been closer to how you are use to working. It can still be done nodaly in the displacements but it takes a bit of nodal understanding. One way is to take advantage of the center input on the rotation node... and use the same type of gradient to split out both centers before you put it into the input. Same way I did for the rotation. Problem is if your body is in the same object it will be effected as well.

Another way... (this is how I would have done it) Is to use a weight map (or "part move") and use nulls to rotate and move each part individually in the displacement context. That way the body could be accounted for as well.

That being said... You can set it up like a regular hierarchy of objects. Then in a very similar way... use "node motion" and "speed time" on the wings to do the same thing I did in the displacement editor. Speed time could also be used on instances as well. It did not have to be done in the displacement editor. I did it like that because it was the quickest way I could think of to make the wings flap opposite. I'll post a short vid of a more controllable set up a bit later...

Ma3rk
08-19-2016, 05:16 AM
I'll post a short vid of a more controllable set up a bit later...

That would be great. I think I understand but video is always a plus.

I had hoped to start playing with this today but got waylaid by a pesky work call.

M.

Axis3d
08-19-2016, 12:18 PM
Here's a couple of shots I animated and comped of a butterfly. The live-action was shot slo-mo and the animation made to match. My setup was pretty simple. I animated the left wing and set up the right wing to use Follower, multiplying the the Bank value by -1.
https://youtu.be/eLrgJh8yifA

Prince Charming
08-19-2016, 12:42 PM
That would be great. I think I understand but video is always a plus.

I had hoped to start playing with this today but got waylaid by a pesky work call.

M.
I am on vacation from to today till labor day....:D
I hope to be doing much 3d.
Here is a set up that accounts for the pivots using part move index as a mask.
For something like this... the reason I try to keep things in one object is because it makes dealing with mdds a much better process. Now when you bake this out you only have to deal with one mdd. Bones would work for that as well (instead of having multiple objects).

https://youtu.be/J1QuTVlRLqc

Ma3rk
08-19-2016, 02:42 PM
I am on vacation from to today till labor day....:D
I hope to be doing much 3d.

Again, much thanks. Enjoy your down time.

Ma3rk
08-21-2016, 09:06 AM
Here's a couple of shots I animated and comped of a butterfly. The live-action was shot slo-mo and the animation made to match. My setup was pretty simple. I animated the left wing and set up the right wing to use Follower, multiplying the the Bank value by -1.
https://youtu.be/eLrgJh8yifA

That's quite nice Kevin. That's kind of what I initially thought of doing until I found out the client wants some flock shots. Figured there had to be a much better way than to animate individually.