View Full Version : Tough questions for NT...

02-09-2003, 06:03 PM
This post was originally a reply regarding the concern of so much user speculation over the luxology debacle. In reponse to that, my reply drifted into the more generalized concern over the perception of LW that I have had since the last siggraph. what do you guys think?

Sorry Elmar, but that was one weak post. I think by posting hear alerts Nt to our concern, alerts new people of the participation and passion of the users, and is perhaps the only place that Nt has posted a response to this situation.

I find it deplorable that NT has allowed Luxology to attract such uncertainy to the public/industry perception of Nt and LW by NOT publicly clarifying the facts. This is perhaps why the 3D WORLD Published what they did... they have no other facts.

A few months ago, NT did a wonderful "state of the Union" article regarding the toaster that appeared both in print and on line. It clearly stated the direction the toaster is headed and what plans NT has.

I wrote an email to Phillip pointing out that such an article on LW would do wonders considering the uncertainly that was presented to the industry with the inital press releases from Luxology. Why is it that Luxology was profiled in CG channel and not NT? And note when i say industry, I'm talking about people who AREN"t using LW.. thats where Nt should be focusing.

Regardless of what the facts may be, I think we can all agree that losing the San Francisco team is a loss on some level, even if its just of loss of sheer manpower. My fear is that we are entering a toaster centric era for NT. I'm not saying that LW development has actually stopped. What I'm saying is that there is a PERCEPTION that development of LW has been affected. I hear Larry speak of Lw programmers rubbing elbows with FX artist working on the next version of Lw. i believe him. How about even a CGChannel article to revigorate the industry's perception that LW is still on the shelf.

Speaking of shelf, I was just in the new apple pasadena store. Any reference to 3D is given to maya. Its like LW for the mac doesn't exist. Even less excusable is the apple web page. Under the creative section, there's no mention of LW. This is absolutely deplorable...it smells of Amiga mishandling during the last days of commodore. I know, apple = small market share. But its a high profile market share. You should have apple install the Lw demo on all the macs in the store as they do with Photoshop and other aps. have LW BE the photoshop of 3D for the mac community. Hello, inspire 2.0?

I don't understand why the sudden absense of Brad seemed synchronous with the absense of Lw's promotion. there seems to be a shift from promoting Lw to the industry, to promotion LW to the Lw centric crowds. Ads in Newtekpro and keyframe? What is this, software narcissism? How about in macworld at least, or in Rez. All see is alot of Video toaster promoting, and only William's extensive effort to the current Lw community (tutorials, contests, etc). Promotional sales are great, but I'm talking about perception.

Why is it that Luxology does high profile articles on Zoic, Digital Domain and others while at Nt site all I see is how you are giving away everything but the kitchen sink if you buy LW. I click onto the LW page and I get a rather amateurish looking images submitted by contest winners. Looks like its 1995 al over again. I mean this is fine, but it belongs in the community or tutorials section. The splash page of LW appears as a hub for fans of LW, which is great in one respect, but it should really show LW's best foot forward. And that best foot is commercial work.

Really, its like Luxology and NT should switch web pages. If I went to Luxology, the site that "provides educational and support materials" for Lw users, and found the tutorials from the NT site, that would make sense, Conversly, if I go to the LW splash page at NT and saw spreads on Zoic and DD, that makes me want to buy LW and that I'm buying a polished, professional app. See what I mean?

I understand william is the evangelist, and I respect his current efforts. However, i gotta ask, william, who are you evagelising LW to? Current Lw users? I mean really, who? What markets have you outlined and stradegized? What plans do you have for Lw having a larger presence at apple sotes. what is your Solution to the Maya/shake sale that Apple is promoting? Why isn't Lw included if LW's native float render compliments shake float compositing engine so perfectly. Why is it that I never received the LW demo disk that I ordered from siggraph for a high profile friend of mine. She was willijng to give Lw a try, but since I could never get the demo disk, she went with maya. She is convinced that LW can't do character animation since she's stuck with the impression from Lw 5.6. What are your plans to aleviate an oversight like this? How about making just the LW demo app downloadable for your web page?

I saw you at the last LW user group. While your efforts evident in the tutorials and so forth are great, my fear is that your expertise isn't well rounded enough to cover the visual effects field. I also saw Duece who seems well rounded in the toaster/LW/aura arena, but thats in service of Lw products. My concern is that, again, the current staff at NT is toaster centric. I'm seeing alot more of LW being promoted within the confines of the Toaster universe. There appears to have been a shift towards promoting the benefits of Lw and the toaster as a package, as opposed to LW on its own as a universal solution.

I think you guys need to suppliment that with at least one more person who works in the visual effects field who can relate LW to both the profiles and circles that Discreet and Shake operate in. This would prove invaluable to LW's current disappearing presence to new customers. Who cares if CURRENT LW users know about Lw and can enter contest. Most of us are too busy to enter contests.

There I go pissing upwind again....

Elmar Moelzer
02-09-2003, 09:42 PM
So Arthur you think that this was a weak post?
Maybe you are right, but at I did not get lost in stupid speculation, without knowing any facts. You know I am a bit angry about all those speculations and rumors. I help out the local dealer by doing customer- support for LW and I get calls from concerned users lately, that read that **** and take it for real. And no, I dont get hour- based salary for setting those things straight again.

>This is perhaps why the 3D WORLD Published what they did... they have no other facts.>
If one doesnt know anything for sure and has no facts at hand, one better shuts up and keeps searching for more info before writing ****. Sorry but this is not professional journalizm, but boulevard- niveau at best.

>I don't understand why the sudden absense of Brad seemed synchronous with the absense of Lw's promotion>
Sorry, but I see more LW- promotion now, than I have ever seen before(and I have been around for quite some time)...
And I think, that your attack on William is very, very unfair.
I know him a bit and man I have never seen anyone working that hard, trying to be everywhere at the same time day and night and doing so much great stuff with so little budget.
But obviously there are always people, that find something to moan about in everything. I can still remember people moaning about missing tutorials i.e. Now that there are plenty (thanks to William), they say, that they would rather like something else... I cant understand that sorry. You will also find many great pics in the LW- gallery- section of NTs page, BTW.
Videos are much harder to get though, because of copyrights etc...

>Why is it that Luxology does high profile articles on Zoic, Digital Domain and others while at Nt site all I see is how you are giving away everything but the kitchen sink if you buy LW>
Sorry, but there are more userprofiles around than ever, not only on NTs site, but on CGfocus, on NT- Europes site etc(again thanks to William). The people featured there are all great artists. Making an interview takes its time, I am sure we will see even more in the future. It also would make little sense redoing an interview for NTs site, that Luxology has done...

>I think we can all agree that losing the San Francisco team is a loss on some level>
It was never officially stated, that NT lost the SF- team!
In fact Chuck wrote the contrary clearly enough, right?

>You should have apple install the Lw demo on all the macs in the store as they do with Photoshop and other aps. have LW BE the photoshop of 3D for the mac community>
You know that one has to pay for having a product displayed like that, right?

>what is your Solution to the Maya/shake sale that Apple is promoting?>
There has been a wonderfull bundle of LW/Toaster etc with Digital Fusion and it has been there for quite some time now.
For your info: DF4.0 is floating- point as well, in fact it is completely bit- depth independend, and also flow- based and widely used in the FX- industry, especially since Shake is Mac- only. Many compositing- artists I know, say it is up to par with Shake. This may also be the cause for LW not being bundled with Shake. A bundle with DF and a bundle with Shake at the same time would have been impossible for obvious reasons(they still are competitors in some way).

>She is convinced that LW can't do character animation since she's stuck with the impression from Lw 5.6>
One could do great CA with LW5.6 as well. Just check out what Foundation Imaging did for "Troopers" or all the other animated series they have done (the last were done with LW 6+ though). I think Larry "Splinegod" Shultz will be happy to tell you more about that. And then there was Messiah at the time too.

Finally I want to say, that I am a bit confused with your moaning about LWs- promotion, as the original topic of the thread was "Luxology", you remember?
I would also like to admit that crossposting to here and taking everything out of context is not that much a great idea.

02-10-2003, 02:27 AM
People shouldn't take Arthur's post as offensive, although I'm sure some will, including some at Newtek. Arthur has long been a passionate user of Lightwave, and has long offered suggestions on how Newtek could improve promotion. A lot of what Arthur says about promotion has merit, as he is well versed in the broadcast and film scene. I'm sure the comments were made in the interests of Lightwave. It's a bit ironic that one of Luxology's stated whinges was that Lightwave wasn't being promoted enough in high places.

Of course people are wondering about Luxology, and how this issue will get resolved. Newtek has no obligation to openly discuss it's thoughts on Luxology. However there is a fire burning, and it is now in Newtek's interests to put this fire out. Sure, Newtek's stated position is that it has no relationship whatsoever with Luxology. However, everyone knows that there is a major conflict with Luxology. We can't pretend that it is not there. I wonder how long this messy saga is going to drag on for. Another year?

I note that when people at the LA user group meeting (that Arthur mentions) asked Brad Peebler what is going on between Newtek and Luxology, Brad said that "he is not at liberty to discuss the matter."

So both parties have gone silent. Both Newtek and Lux believe that Lightwave is fantastic software and the best 3D application in existence. Surely it's in both party's interests right now to ensure that Lightwave doesn't get harmed by incorrect rumors or innuendo. Can't both party's meet and work out a way to minimize this damage? I guess, thinking realistically, this will never happen. I just can't stand the thought of the issue dragging on for a lot longer.

02-10-2003, 05:42 PM
here's a funny idea...

The issue will be done when it is done. That's how law works in this country. It's called a legal resolution. :p

: now some meandering thoughts and ramblings :

LightWave is continuing to be developed as a cross platform solution for Digital Content Creators.

The big Studios are still using it and will continue to use it.

Modeler will continue to be a great modeling environment for technically complex models and a great tool for people who are concerned with quality and speed.

Layout will continue to be a bad *** animation and rendering environment for people who care deeply about the quality of their final rendered images and animations.

Everything that is currently happening in the LightWave community and culture is a good thing and it is great that NewTek is willing to step up to the plate to make it happen. Remember how things were being handled when a certain someone was around managing the ship? It was like pulling teeth. Did he even use LightWave or did he just rise through the ranks by proving he could do the job?

But I digress.

More changes for the positive will continue to happen. William and Chuck and the whole crew over at NewTek are doing a great job of getting over this hump which transpired because of greed and a struggle for power. But you know what...in the end, the right people will have prevailed and we the user will be the better for it.

It's both a curse and benefit that we care so much about the product we use daily...it shows what a great piece of software it is...and will continue to be.

These times are tough for us all but I feel and know that the current people involved with the evolution of LightWave are doing everything right to get the mission back on track so we can all go into the Future with our Pride and Joy close to our hearts.

And you know what...that's enough for me.

Thanks for hearing me out. :D

Keep on Waving and amazing the world with your singular talent!

02-11-2003, 01:20 AM
Thanks for the kind words, beam....

elmar, so that you don't take my reply too personally, my opinion that your reply was weak is in regards as to how it relates to NT situation. 3D world's crediability aside, you have to keep in mind that what is concerning is that that information is out there. So to an outsider, one that doesn't frequent these forums (i.e new customers), there perception of LW comes from such publications, including online publications like CGchannel. Perhaps its Luxology's professionalism that is to be question for creating such doubts in the first place. My concern is NT lack of clarity in areas outside this forum.

As to the particulars of the cause of this debacle, i'm less interested. I'm more interested that there is to be no doubt outside NT/LW circles regarding Lw future. And a LW article like the VT toaster article is something I proposed to Phillip as a means to smooth out any wrinkles.

Understand that I heard about this Luxology/NT stuff not from CG channel or 3D world, but from industry people around LA. people who knew programmers and artist. I was expecting NT web address to be up for sale after I heard what these people had to say. Most were and are LW fans. While I'm used to hearing stories of doom all the time regarding NT and LW, never had I heard it from the actual users and fans.

As far as my harshness on Nt, it dates back to last siggraph when I noticed a "paradigm shift" in Nt's approach to promotion. The retro promoting that was so unnapproapriate at someplace like Siggraph was like a blow to the face. I can't help if my reponse to it was equally blunt.

And my comment of NT go to NT, not to magazines or other online forums. I post at NT's forum with the intent of stirring up some rethinking. It can't hurt. its not meant to hurt. Its just tough questions, as this topic is defined.

I believe William has doing a great job in supporting the Nt community. And after having gained a peak at what he's working on, I believe he is really trying to address many of the support issues that have plagued users. While I think this creates a strenthened infastructure that will allow new users to pick up on LW, I see little in promoting key LW features. Its just an observation, and an opinion. something for NT to digest or discard.

Its just seems odd that nobody here can't really debate that there is at least some confusion regarding this matter of Luxology. What I don't understand is why NT doesn't try to even sidestep it with even just a fluffy coverage of LW's current state.. Something that just puts it out in print or online that says "hey we have a pulse". And I can't state this any more: high profile, high profile, high profile. period. With the recent price wars, or parity I shoul say, high profile can't be more important. Christ, maya gives me a training DVD with a demo of maya for $20 and I can't even get a demo of Lw for free. I can get mental ray for Free. What good do tutorials on the web do if no one can try your software? These are major cracks in Nt's ability to push Lw in what is now a crowded market. Instead we get efforts to appease current users like contest. This is all very kind, but just not smart.

02-11-2003, 03:35 AM

couldn't we just agree on the following:

1.Everything that is not written bei NT-employees is pure speculation and leads nowhere.

2.The best thing we users can do is suggest features and improvements or write them in C or as Lscript, and support third party creators.

3.If You live in fear and uncertainity using LightWave as it is, consider changing the app.

Everything else is purely theoretical, might be completely false and just a waste of time and brainpower, as far as I am concerned.
No one here is in a position to have NT tell everything to everyone, its their business, and I vote with my money if I dont like whats happening, easy as that.
I for one have already subscribed to a MAYA-Basics-course.

Elmar Moelzer
02-11-2003, 08:29 AM
Hmm being situated in LA and knowing any programmers does not necessarily make one a credible source of information.
Trust me! I will say it another time and loud and clearly again: LW IS FINE! EVERYTHING IS GOING TO BE ALL RIGHT!
Chuck said this more than once in the past too...
Concerning the articles at CGchannel and 3d- world. NT did not know about these articles before they appeared. Chuck clarified this with CGchannel and he posted clarifications in forums etc. I am not sure on what was done in the 3dworld issue, but I guess that you will be able to find a tiny correction hidden between some advertizing in the next issue of 3dworld (so as little peole as possible read, that the journalist there was wrong).
Yet people seem to ignore what Chuck says. I dont know why.

Even if your comments are aimed at NT(if so, it would be better to PM them), people reading this here do not know that and many obviously love to understand things wrong. This is how rumors start. This is why I got so angry about the speculation going on in the forums. Too many people take speculation for serious, which it is not. Speculation is speculation and it is most likely, that it is very wrong. Trust me, I know(!) that more than 99% of what was said in this discussion(please read the rest of it in the old forums) was far, far away from the truth, ok?
Another thing I want to give you all on the way is: Be patient! Things will sort out and you will all be happy. Until then relax, wait and have a good cup of tea. ;)

02-11-2003, 08:42 AM
what i find most presumptious about all of this is how we, yes all of us, go about speculating on what the future is, will be and should be.

it will be good when it is all settled.

I have to get back to making art.:D

02-11-2003, 02:18 PM
Hi, Arthur!

Thankfully, the notion that all we're doing is holding a monthly contest while some huge amount of activity goes on elsewhere really does not accurately reflect matters.

There is a lot of activity in marketing and it has been very effective at reaching new users, and any bases that we don't seem to have covered at the moment, please rest assured that we are working on them. We have added a lot of direct email marketing activity and that is producing a nice rate of sales of new units. Our free texture collections have drawn huge numbers of hits from folks not previously familiar with our products and that effort is also generating new sales. The Bonus Pack is also very successful.

We've added a number of new profiles on our site from a range of users, and have also placed a number of profiles and interviews with other sites, where they can be seen by lots of folks who may not already be LW users. After a reasonable exclusive time for the hosting site, we'll add those to our site as well. Several high profile interviews and profiles are in the works, as well.

The bulk of the marketing content created during the past eight months or more has been LW content. We've done a new LW brochure, written and recruited well over a hundred tutorials (many of these we also place with other sites first, before adding them here), done loads of LW profiles vs just two VT profiles so far, one of which is not yet online, placed dozens of review units, doubled the size of our press contact list, seen great and growing response to our press releases, been able to encourage lots of other coverage of houses using LW, and more. After a time that was pretty restrictive on ad budget, we've been able to do more print ads lately, as well as banner ads on a number of sites, with more in the works.

One thing that has been problematical is that while studios are quite happy to provide image content to journalists for print and web publication, they very often are difficult for a vendor to get permission for use of content from, and it is the studio client, not the FX house, that can provide permission for a vendor to display images on the web or in print, or in a distributable demo reel. FX houses can allow use of material on a reel shown only from the stage at a trade show, but for more you need to negotiate the rights and permissions procedures of the studios and then religiously observe the restrictions they set forth on usage. We're working on developing those relationships, so that we can indeed use more of the highest profile content currently being created with LW than we have so far been able to.

It is also the case that is is very important to market to current owners of your products. Contrary to being a mistake or an oversight, it is critical to the health of a company. Upgrades are in themselves a very significant source of revenue, and satisfied customers also help bring in new customers. And some things that you may consider an effort to market to existing customers are actually very applicable to new customers. The existence of plenty of good learning material is important to people looking at purchasing LightWave 3D, not just to those who have already purchased.

As to the LW Discovery edition, we've tried a number of approaches to distributing it, and between what we've issued, what our reseller partners have issued, and coverdisk appearances, we're now well over a million copies in distribution. We do have plans to make it more widely and easily available in future, however.

The template for the flavor of our future marketing efforts for LightWave 3D would be the course we set with our new brochure. Anyone who would like a look at a copy can contact our CS department to request a copy, and we have an online version at:

Virtual LightWave 3D Brochure (http://www.lightwave3d.com/brochure/index.html)

At any rate, you've certainly provided some food for thought, and we are taking your comments and those of others under review as we consider our plans for the future. Thanks for taking the time to let us know your thoughts.

02-11-2003, 03:03 PM
Hey Chuck...it's always a pleasure to see you take your time to present your thoughts clearly and perfectly.

One thought I had, as have a few other LightWavers, is to make the Discovery Edition available for download.

It's time to get LightWave into even more hands than it already is in. :D

Keep up the great work!

02-11-2003, 05:45 PM
I'm taking notes, Chuck,
As one can truly learn from you as to how to deal with... issues.

You guys give us such input on your tools that many of us think we own and run the company. ;) Ha, I just play one on my VT. Company presidents, that is.

As an owner of all the tools you sale at the moment, I would simply like to say, "Keep up the great work... and give us spoiled asses MORE!" :cool:

Back to my aurawavetoastin',
Robert Wilson
UnCommon Grafx

02-12-2003, 01:15 AM

Thank you for the reply. Thank you for also sharing whats going on under the hood in your marketing engine.

As if by fate, we were talking about aps at my job. My colleages, both shake and Maya artist, were discussing the recent trend of less specialization and more task sharing at Studios, i.e. 2D compositing and 3D lighting. How much of its is handled by custom lighting and Maya. We mentioned houdini as an FX engine and discussed its learning curve. Then someone asked what about Lightwave...

"is anybody even using that anymore?"

"yeah, I think DD for rendering, maya for animation."

I chimed in on its rendering engine and its integrated features. Nobody seemed to pick up on what I mentioned.

This may sound trivial to you and others here, however it proves my point exactly. Granted, the FX industry is still relying on the open architecture of maya, and thats not going to change unless the bid wars get REALLY bad. However, the manner in which LW is overlooked is disconcerting. People, like my friend who never received the LW disk, have little reason NOT to move to maya.

Perhaps NT's market is the personal animation market. It seems Brad's intro of 6.0 was a big step towards pushing LW to a more high end level, same with 7.0. I reiterate my fear: with the current FX climate, the price point of software is converging as such that they no longer distinquish a particular product.

Again, this issue of the LW demo, as compared to A/W. What needs to be "planned"? Are you afraid of piracy? I lost count of how many cracked copies of ALL software most PC users have. I, for one, have 0 bytes of cracked software, but its not because I can't find any. That discovery edition should be on your site tomorrow. Nothing draws me to a software package more than a dl-able demo. period. For up and coming 3D animators, a/w offers an elegant demo and training package for $20. NT not even having a dl-able demo, I believe, would seriously deter many from persuing a copy. I'm not debating your numbers, but its simply a matter of leveling the playing field. When a friend asked using Lw for animation, I sent him some info. Then he asked why he can't just dl a demo like he did with maya. What do I say? So he's messing with maya now. See? its that easy.. pretty soon, he see's Maya's current special, like $500 more than LW, and gets that. Heck, he'd be paid more to do FX in Maya than LW.

So chuck, while I greatly appreciate your frankness and thorough outline regarding what you guys have planned, I can't help but to report what i hear in the trenches. My main question is how do you see yourselves pitching LW to Fx houses, large or small, considering maya's accesablility (from a stand point of price and exposure) and acceptance in not just the film FX area, but TV and commercial.

02-12-2003, 02:05 AM

just read this message in the cgchatlist, an electric image related forum. This guy replies to someones question wether to update his LW 5.6 or Electric Image.
Now, thats bad advertising.


>Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 08:43:40 -0800
>From: Northern Lights <[email protected]>
>To: CG Chat List <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: Universe 5 and/or Lightwave 7.5 questions...
>Message-ID: <BA6E683C.3AA4%[email protected]>

>The only piece of advice I'd offer is that (as I understand it) there won't
>be any more upgrades or bug fixes to Lightwave. The reason being that the
>two lead programmers left NewTek back in April and they own 80% of the code.
>I'm also hearing that production houses are beginning to migrate away from

>Blair M. Burtan
>Northern Lights Productions

Elmar Moelzer
02-12-2003, 03:33 AM
hey Christian
Again this is very wrong, not one part of this is true...
Now you can believe me or the fellow from E.I.
Its up to you!

02-12-2003, 04:21 AM
Hi Elmar,

I know, or at least i´m believing that I know something, or lets say I trust what Chuck & Co are saying. I know at least nothing.

But the point is, the people on this cgchatlist don´t know it better. This guy who considers updating LW or EI believes this crap ´cause its coming from a software developer who claims he has insight in 3d Business. So this hurts Newteks Business at last.


Elmar Moelzer
02-12-2003, 04:31 AM
Hello Christian
As I said in my first post to this thread (the "weak" one). The competitors of Newtek use these rumors for their own business. You know nothing is better for marketing than bad news about the competition...
Again, this is why I meant that these threads have done enough harm...
Again, I was right, because I AM ALWAYS RIGHT!
And I hate it when I am right....
But my post was oh so weak, oh well...
A note to moderators: I would delete all those threads...
There is no information in them anyway and use up valuable bandwith, just copy Chucks post and paste it into a new thread, it is the only post worth reading...

02-12-2003, 06:07 AM
I do believe, that LW is one of the best. Because it`s affordable, and it offers great tools...It has the best modeller plugin (modeler.exe), and one of the best renderers as well. It`s a shame, that it`s not aknowledged widely.

I do hope, that NT will make more agressive marketing. I do hope, that LW will spread around the world.

Maybe, LW is not as open as Maya, but what I know, that lot of things can be done faster, cleaner in LW (and of course there are tasks that`s harder to do)

So keep on NT, do the next LW to us.

02-12-2003, 01:49 PM
Chuck, why HASN'T Newtek provided a downloadable demo? I did a little digging, and I definitely found some sources for downloading LightWave, just not from Newtek's site, if you get my drift. It would seem better for Newtek to provide a downloadable demo than "Frankie's House O' Warez"

02-12-2003, 03:07 PM
Maybe it's time to start writing your beef with Newtek to them personally and stop posting to the forum about it. Why do we have to be subjected to your dissastisfaction?

02-12-2003, 03:31 PM
Hi, Matt!

I'm sure there is really no answer I can give you that you will find satisfactory - and the past is the past. I can't say more at the moment than that we do agree that a downloadable demo would be a good thing.

02-12-2003, 11:02 PM
After all this time reading your posts on the forums and news groups, it's cool to connect a face to the cybervoice.

02-12-2003, 11:42 PM

thank you for the point. elmar, you seem to think that we are debating NT? I'm not. I'm saying that there exist an alarming number of impressions out there that LW is becoming extinct, regardless of the truth, regardless of the list of studios using it in LW's database, regardless of how many tutorials or contest are up on at the Nt site.

If I were basing my decision on the data outside the NT site, I'd feel the same way.

heck, for the apple community, they think all there is EI and Maya!

it is too sad, elmar, that you are trying to reduce this thread to a personal matter. too bad that you seek to ostracise comments made by myself and others like christian because they don't in the highest regard for the "home team" this has long been a criticism of these forums that as soon as one enter's a serious topic, people get emotional.

The facts are that there is a growing suspicion in certain industry circles that LW's days are numbered. While one can say this has has often been remarked about Nt and its products, its never been accompanied by so much dirty laundry, i.e. Luxology and associated articles. Not even during the Play days. I'm not here to aggravate the situation by design. I've been with NT since the digipaint days. I'm here to just report what I see. And what i see is disturbing, regardless of what opinion you have of me or my observations, Elmar. If you REALLY cared about NT, you would welcome the hard questions along with the cheerleading.

hrgiger, we are entitled to post, as I understand, as you are entitled to not read them.

Chuck, william, and the gang. Thanks for taking the blows like gentlemen. Also kudos on the Pics. It really feels like a community. I'd post mine, but judging from the crowd, I'd better include crosshairs on the pics!!!javascript:smilie(':D')

02-13-2003, 12:51 AM
This forum is for sharing thoughts about specific subjects. I used to read other forums as well, and if I find the current topic content disturbing, I do not care with it anymore.

Sweeping away the existing problems, is not a proper reaction. LW`s future is as bright as it`s userbase faith of it. If the userbase is migrating, or doubtful LW`s future is dimmer. That`s a clear way. Lot of users can stick with LW, but looking at the current tendency Maya or XSI is the choosen one by the most studios. Max is leading in game industry (i really don`t know why, it`s so disturbing application).

If you think professionally, and not as a fanatic fan of your favourite application, you may realize, that if one want to stay on the market, he has to migrate to the most used application. I think, that I became 3d artist for doing characters, and not for using Lightwave anyway. If I am pressed to use another application, I will. But I am a LW fan, and I try to use it as much as it is possible by the pipeline.

Maybe LW gets even better (sure it will), but the users must be kept. And the key for keeping the users is INFORMATION. The most frequently asked question, is that WHEN will the new Lightwave released.


02-13-2003, 02:37 AM
Hi Chuck.
One thing Newtek could do is talking with Apple and ask them to update this page.. This looks really old..


I have told Proton this before but I know he has alot to do and I'm sure he forgot about it.. ;)

And if you are going to put your demo on your webpage in the future, also ask Apple if you could have it on this page..

02-13-2003, 04:49 AM
Meshbuilder's suggestion of closer relationships between Newtek and Apple is a good idea. There are still a lot of graphic artists using Apple hardware who may one day get into 3D software.

I still think a non-watermarked demo version of Lightwave would be worthwhile. Give people a few basic features to play with. Give it away free with new Macintoshs.

Look at what Avid is doing with their Protools audio division. They give away a free version of Protools for anyone to download. It doesn't give you the option of using as many audio channels, but it doesn't try to distort the output. People can really use the stuff they create with Protools (what I mean is that there's no equivalent to a water mark). Those wanting to dabble in some simple audio editing can use the free Protools every day. Professionals soon find that they need more features and upgrade to the paid version.

Using this marketing model, Protools has gone to the top of their field (and is very profitable for Avid), and is the most popular professional audio app. Protools keeps the rest of the Avid company alive, as SoftImage XSI and Avid's video products run at a loss.

Newtek should seriously consider the Protools model in regards to Lightwave.

As for Luxology... I don't know what's going on there, but if one of the above statements is correct, that Luxology owns 80% of the Lightwave code, then Luxology will develop that code. If Newtek owns the code, then Newtek will develop it. Whichever way it goes, someone will be developing a next generation 3D app, based on today's Lightwave. No scenario sees development stop.

02-13-2003, 05:23 AM
Originally posted by Chuck

I can't say more at the moment than that we do agree that a downloadable demo would be a good thing.

Chuck I don't understand? I'm holding in my hand a CD from 3DWorld, Issue 18 that has a dual format demo for LightWave 7!

Surely doing a 7.5 demo would be cake, putting it online would be even easier! I really don't understand what the problem is!

I'm not sure what the relationship is with NewTek and Luxology or why Allan, Stuart and Brad left (I just hope the programming talent at NT hasn't been compromised by that) but I agree with archiea's comments on the fact that their website seems to sell the case for LW better than the official LW website!

I suppose having two sites is better than one though!

I think us LW'ers just need caressing from time to time with activity or we get worried!


Elmar Moelzer
02-13-2003, 08:11 AM
Hello Arthur
I did PM you, didnt you get it?
No I do not want to make this personal and a war or anything.
But you have to try to understand my point. I dont think that these discussions did any good. In fact the concerns of the users and those rumors were spread by those threads. This is why I am against discussions like these. This is also why I dont think it is a good idea to talk about this in public. You see, someone mentiones that "A said this", people read this and post this elsewhere, other people take this for serious and the whole things gets worse and worse and all of a sudden everyone seems to beleve this. But to say it again: nothing of this is true.
Why cant people just accept that?
And I dont really care for what some people from LA say, despite that I feel it is bad marketing for LW.
I also dont have the impression of LW being less used lately. In fact I read about a lot of cool things done with LW, like "Star Trek: Nemesis".
Please dont take my posts to personal, it is just that I want to defend my point of view, especially since many people, that post here seem not to share my opinion.
So and this is my last post to this thread concerning this matter. I have expressed my views more than once and I dont think that there is much more I can do. There is certainly nothing anyone can say, that will change my thoughts about this matter.

02-13-2003, 08:47 AM
Hi, Folks!

I've got some major projects to complete, and will not be much on the forums or email today, and possibly tomorrow, unless from home. Please bear with me and I'll get back to the discussion when I wrap those up.

Some quick comments before I pop down the rabbithole:

I do keep in touch with my liaison at Apple, and have requested they replace the 6.5 PR with the 7.5 PR a number of times. I'll keep working on that.

I hear ya! I wondered about putting that crosshair thingy on *my* pic... ;)

Matt: Again, we're in perfect agreement with you on the value of a downloadable demo, and it would be incorrect to think that we think there is any problem in being able to get it done. We can share reasoning that would certainly end up being debatable in the light of 20-20 hindsight on why it wasn't done and posted at any given previous point in the past, but that's not really productive, is it?

02-13-2003, 09:14 AM
Elmar is absolutely right. These dicussions do not do any good. In fact to me, these kinds of things are the only thing casting any doubt on Lightwave's future.
Yes Archiea, you are entitled to post, as I am entitled not to read them, as you are entitled to buy another software package if you don't like the way Newtek runs their company.
You guys think you're doing any kind of good asking these "hard hitting" questions on the public forums? I think, you're just doing damage to the Newtek community. A lot of people read these forums, some of them even people maybe considering buying Lightwave. Do you think they're going to feel good about investing in Lightwave after reading your posts? I just feel if you have questions about Newtek's business you should take that up with them personally and not cast gloom here in our community. Either way, they're probably not going to reveal to you anything they haven't already done so until they're ready to come out with it publicly. Why do you keep up with this. Please ask yourself what purpose you are serving by perpetuating rumors about a possible end to Lightwave. Newtek isn't doing any damage to itself, you are.
A better question is, as a user of Lightwave, why are you here on the forums questioning business practices of Newtek when you could being doing something with Lightwave to carry the community forward. Let me ask you, how did you choose Lightwave? Personally, when I looked at different packages, I went to their websites and surfed through their galleries. I wanted to see what kind of work could be done with that software. This is what sells it. If everyone here wants Lightwave to be competetive with the other big apps of 3D, then they need to start doing work on par with them. You need to push the boundaries of what's possible with Lightwave. You need to get poeple to want to ask, how was that done? What software did they use to make that? Tim Jenison, founder of Newtek even said in a recent interview that if people want Lightwave to suceed then they need to go out and be sucessful, start companies, create tv shows, get jobs.....
This is how you help Lighwave. Not by questioning publicly how Newtek runs it's business.
Personally, I've said my peace, I have to get back to something I'm working on in Lightwave....

02-13-2003, 10:49 AM
Peace guys...

Elmar, HRGiger...you also have to understand, that many folks have to go with the flow. I don`t know how you are employed (I mean are you a freelancer, or are you working in a studio). If a way is uncleared (like LW`s future for the common users), they have the right to worry about their package. Those discussion is for clarifying the future of LW, although it`s not clear anyway. The only one, who can clarify everything is Newtek. So this discussion might be cut short, if Newtek would post sg like "Guys, next LW is launched within six month or so..." or "Dear users, we are sorry to tell you, that next LW won`t be launched within the next 6 month"

I think, it`d be clear way.

The community is one thing. It`s not a scout camp, but a business community. I don`t think that anybody want to use LW as a hobby application. If you look at the community posts, most of them are sparetime projects...So the community is strong enough. But the professional userbase is weak, I think...

That`s my 2 cents...

02-13-2003, 11:11 AM
Ahhhh....Freedom of Speech....gotta love it :D

02-13-2003, 11:30 AM
maybe it's because authur knows more about the current trends in the industry he is in. any company would be thankful for a focus group discussion outlining the stream of thoughts of the outside world. there are prophets of doom; there are many of them and they've said a lot, probably too much that people get knee-jerk reactions to silencing them when they start clamoring once more.

but arthur's argumentative thrust is not rumor-mongering. far from it. he's saying there's a mindset amongst the people / industry he is in and it 'hints' to something potentially problematic with lightwave's marketing. that's not a rumor. that's a fact; he is the witness. you can pitch on your side and offer your own observation, possibly one that contradicts his, but you cannot, or at least ought not, discredit his witness just because your personal opinion dictates that it is not beneficial to this community.

and arthur is not 'questioning' business practices; that word 'questioning' has 'moral' connotations and i think completely throws the meaning out of context. so arthur pushes for a downloadeable demo that doesnt currently exist. in no way is that 'questioning' anyone's business practice. at most, it is a suggestion. is it simply because arthur's 'writing tone' objectionable to some people? if so, let it be just stated as that - superficially as that.

lastly, the benefits, or harm that such a discussion has is up for grabs. i take the zealousness of the average lightwave user and i can count on him/her to either extract a flammable speculation from something that is nothing of the sort. otherwise, we have users asking the other to shut up, in more words than one. ;) i sympathize, of course, with those who are sick with this luxology hoopla (i myself being one of them, truly), and the thread in old forums started by arthur himself evolved (or regressed) into a tiring harangue of the s.o.s. but the luxology issue is only a another tissue (hey it rhymes! did i ever tell that i wanted to be a poet?) of this array of perceived problems.

look, if i'm writing peculiarly, it's because it's three in the morning. good night.. or good morning.. :|

02-13-2003, 11:30 AM
Ohh my god!!! Proton is chained to a Desk at NewTek!... That's horrible!!!
Chuck you need to let him out sometimes and get some fresh air..

02-13-2003, 12:28 PM
You were the first to catch that :)

02-13-2003, 04:37 PM


02-13-2003, 05:01 PM

02-13-2003, 06:24 PM
Yes Master....

02-13-2003, 09:21 PM
faulknermano, thank you for correctly interpreting my intentions.

My fear is that some like to think that this forum is some kind of bubble from the outside realities. the reality is that the market is in a high rate of volatile flux: Look at how quickly SGI was replaced with PC infested with Linex. Look at how quickly Maya averted being out priced by its competition. Look at how quickly companies, from software, hardware to services (FX houses) are closing or being bought. Fx work is quickly becoming more Global, not LA or even US based. Talent is SO on the rise, with studios quickly inflating their staff and laying them off almost as quickly. Any sense of structure or security is giving way to under bidding, project hiring instead of staff, etc.

In short, the very infastructure of FX houses, and even the FX business is setting itself for rapid fluctuation. No more contracts, its all at will. I worked at a place where one of the artist was told that if his shot is completed that morning, he was to be dismissed thereafter. So forget about two weeks notice, its barely two hours. This was a major FX house. Even small post houses used to keep you till the end of the day.

what does this have to do with NT? Well it concerns the state of the business that can be considered a good portion of LW customers. So its safe to say that when FX houses are doing well, so does potentialy software companies.

The points that I bring up are just observations. One of them being that I've never seen such a bleak outlook on LW before from within the industry, or worse, its users. its alraming and i believe that NT should know this, and they should know this beyond the cry of zealous Lw users that hear or see no evil.. previously, Maya and studio users admired LW , even grudgenly. Now they speak of it like its out of the race. Thats not good.

02-13-2003, 09:39 PM
And you're helping with this....how?

02-14-2003, 12:40 AM
..... but what can we do...?

02-14-2003, 12:42 AM
hr, come on. Your responses to archiea's view are starting to border on the defensive. Your views differ. That's apparent. Being dogmatic in a discussion is counterproductive.

From my experience, I see a lot of validity in what archaiea writes. The market IS in a state of upheaval, jobs ARE globalizing, and anyone who works professionally in this field IS pooping pellets of concern. That all does have bearing on the state of the tools that an artist employs.

If you disagree because of personal insight, you just have to clearly state your reasons to support it. You may convince archiea.

02-14-2003, 01:03 AM
That`s the most logical, and sane comment on this thread...

02-14-2003, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by Hervé
..... but what can we do...?

well, herve, you can take steve's advice and do kick *** artwork with lw. but those who can contribute to being the frontline 'feelers', by informing us of how people think in other parts of this industry, let them do so.

02-14-2003, 03:17 AM
This whole thread is getting pretty ridiculous by now.
Its just a software, not a religion.
People get hired, people get fired, what has this to do with LightWave ?
Every hired artist gets fired sometime, for whatever reason.
I have seen MAX people fired, I have seen LW-people hired, so what ?
Do You guys really want to depend on LW for the rest of Your life ?
If I want to work at ILMs, I make sure that my reel is great and that I also can handle the important apsects of photoshop, Maya, freehand etc.
If You want to stay a pure LW-artist, You are limiting Yourself quite heavily, so quit complaining already.
If LW gets closed down tomorrow, I use Maya or Max, if not, great !
What is the problem anyway ?
Either You are an artist or You are not, the software plays only a supporting role but is not vital.

Get a life.

02-14-2003, 06:16 AM
Emanuel is right. There is absolutely no reason for this thread and it serves no purpose. I don't care about rumors. Until I hear that Newtek is closing it's doors from them personally, and not a doomsayer like archiea, I'm a lightwave user. I've seen nothing from Newtek themselves that casts any doubts on that. I've seen nothing but positive from them.
Again, what purpose are you serving? We've heard your views again. And again. And again. And again. And again. Thanks, we've got it. I've also heard that terrorists are going to attack us chemically or by nuclear means. I guess that means I should stop living my life and board and plastic myself up in my house. Get over it people. Keep your rumor mongering where it belongs, down at the beauty shop ladies.

02-14-2003, 06:43 AM
Just a few more things.
Yes digilusionist, I am being defensive, but I'm just sharing my view like they are. I'm not calling anyone names or trying to be offensive. Unless you want to call the ladies remark offensive but I just meant I think the rumoring is silly. I think that archiea and christian are doing a great disservice to the Lightwave community by continually informing us of supposed 'insider' info. I think that people considering buying Lightwave who read these forums shouldn't be tainted by these rumors.
And yes Herve, if you look at my above post, I think doing artwork is what you can do to help the Lightwave community. Not by crying over milk that might spill or telling people that the milk is going to spill. Especially when so many love that milk.

02-14-2003, 07:02 AM
Emanuel is right. There is absolutely no reason for this thread and it serves no purpose.

well,if you failed to recognize any purpose in this thread I bloody well hope at least Newtek got the message

there are "prophets of LW doom" out there,yes but archi is not one of them

and he is helping - he's at least trying to give you guys some reality check here

it's all too easy to shut your eyes with your ears and see it all rosy if you confine yourself to lightwave community only

but the truth is,othere software makers suits are doing their rounds and trying to push lw out of the studios (read business)

newtek need to amplify whatever they're doing to address that issue at least tenfold

there can never be enough marketing and keeping quiet is no marketing at all

ultimately,saying nothing about LW future hurts us more than giving us a basic outline of it

and also making hints about LW future within lw community will not do ,the media (magazines,sites etc) have no official statements from newtek,who's to stop them from spreading gossip

archi perhaps cannot help newtek but he's at least trying to help them help themselves

being not worried about anything at all would be plain silly

main message is

put a big mouth ***** and a guy who keeps his mouth shut in the same room - guess who's gonna win the argument?

02-14-2003, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by LNT
put a big mouth ***** and a guy who keeps his mouth shut in the same room - guess who's gonna win the argument? [/B]

The one with the gun. ;)

02-14-2003, 08:23 AM
what exactly do you guys want to hear?

don't you think that NT is trying to do what they can based on what they can do legally?

i agree that something needs to be said formally at some point...and i'm sure something will be said.

what do you think it means when someone in LA asked BP what was going on and his reply was, "At the moment I can't talk about it..." mean to you?

to me it means...i just have to wait until their dealings are done to find out the truth.

i guess you can keep us abreast of the doom and gloom of the market for your own satisfaction as a devoted user...but try and realize this simple truth...lw is here to stay and will continue to be around...and if it isn't...well then...this is still a free market in which one can persue their passions.

keep on waving!

02-14-2003, 08:30 AM
don't you think that NT is trying to do what they can based on what they can do legally?

no,I dont.
legally they can do a lot more. http://www.aoikenso.net/ap/cg/biggrin.gif

u dont think so?

02-14-2003, 08:47 AM
well i could speculate till the buffalo come home...but what's the point?

i think i have a handle on what is going on based on the threads and the whispers i hear from friends in SF.

my only gripe is that I wish NT would have nipped it in the bud instead of letting it go on as long as it did...but i presume they were just trying to be adult about it instead of being sneaky and manipulative...hey...that's how the whole fiasco started.....greed is a killer...

but hey...that's what my moles in SF are telling me...

02-14-2003, 08:47 AM
doh...sorry for the double post....i tried to delete this post but it won't let me...guess this feature is disabled.:rolleyes:

02-14-2003, 08:53 AM
do they whisper that newtek have a NonDisclosureAgreement with themselves? ;)

02-14-2003, 08:58 AM
There are certainly valid points on both sides of the discussion insofar as whether it should or shouldn't happen.

Some things to note:
We have a lot of contacts in the effects industry and we talk with them daily. It is not the case that we have no clue what is going on unless someone posts info to us on our forum. We are very well informed of the full range of what is going on, and we have a lot of insight into whys and wherefores.

It is not the case that the only way to share the anecdotal information that you, as one person, have gathered is to post it in the public forum. We can be directly emailed such information and whichever one of us you pick is going to share it with the others here, especially with management. Posting in public gets no more weight than the private messages do, but it does have a lot of collateral consequences. That's the choice the communicator has made. Communicators get to do that, and other communicators then get to respond, and we just have to deal with the collateral consequences as best we can, and respond in a way that honors the honest concerns that the communicators involved have expressed.

In determining collateral consequences in this case, we do have some data. It is certainly the case that we've heard from folks considering purchasing who have been given doubts by such threads as this in both the new and the old forums. Rule of thumb would say that for every person willing to contact us to tell us this, there are a pretty huge number who had the same reaction and just went silently away. We have not received any messages from anyone saying they were influenced positively by such threads.

It is not even remotely the case that we have been silent. We have communicated over and over again that our commitment to our product and our future development of our product is unwavering. Our communications have been honest, forthright, and precisely appropriate given the absolute necessities inherent in the situation. We will continue to do things just that way.

It is not the case that we are keeping silent as regards to marketing, either. Please see my earlier post on that topic for a summary of current marketing activities. Given the available budget we're getting incredible mileage out of our efforts. The most gratifying change, IMO, is that coverage of our press releases is showing up in more than double the number of former outlets, and the overwhelming number of new carriers are internet sites.

02-14-2003, 09:15 AM
Rock On Chuck!

I guess we all chatter like silly monkeys in a tree because we have nothing better to do.

I'm getting back to work and focusing on the goal from here on out!

The fulfillment and creation of beauty to move the world toward inspiration!

02-14-2003, 09:17 AM
The sad part is.. this thread won't die till Newtek announces something. What SOME people fail to realize is Newtek won't provide any more information until they are ready and won't be forced into a pre-mature relased based on this thread. When they're ready to announce a next version of LW or their newly developed product, they will. This thread and people losing sleep over the whole LuxVNew debate won't force Newtek to do anything any quicker. I'm not speaking for Newtek, but this IS their forum. They read OTHER forums too. They're aware of people's concerns. Based on the fact that this thread is 8 months+ old and Newtek hasn't changed their stance nor have given out any new information should be an indicator that they won't be forced pre-maturely to release something (anything). Let them do their thing. NAB is coming around the corner...:eek: <--- a yawn face.

02-14-2003, 10:48 AM
valid points Chuck!
there's no doubt that you're an inetlligent,reasonable and well balanced man (you have no idea how similar we are :))

and you're probably right that what started as incessantly half-moronic luxology threads may have put a few potential customers off

in that case you can say that lightwave users have hurt newtek ... and be totally correct!

but what we are saying in this thread is that the whole thing has gone full circle :
started here - went to press pages of some 3d mags - and now is coming back as an issue other lightwave users such as myself think needs to be dealt with :D

life aint easy,is it? :)

02-14-2003, 11:11 AM
The irony in this thread is that archiea is invited to post his opinion, and then is denigrated for doing so by those who claim he is an agent provocateur inciting mob rule.

The dissenting voices against him sound more like members of a mob based on the tone and word usage incorporated into their replies. At the moment the level of hostility they continue to impart makes me no longer want to post on these forums.

I guess that's one way to silence those you don't agree with...

02-14-2003, 11:29 AM
Don't let it chase you away DigiLusionist. There are some topics that are always hot-button and will regress everyone to inarticulate name-calling. Those are;politics, religion, and Luxology.

02-14-2003, 02:18 PM
LNT, not sure life is supposed to be easy! :)

To clarify one thing that might be misunderstood from my previous post: identifying what the consequences have actually been (when there was speculation about that) is not to say that a discussion should not have been allowed. Free discussion is worthwhile, even given that sometimes there are negative effects to it. And every worthwhile endeavor will have some element of controversies and challenges that must be navigated.

02-14-2003, 02:25 PM
At least no one can acuse Newtek of hiding it's "dirty laundry" or taking a dictatorial stance on the issue of posting. Y'all have been extremely tolerant, Chuck, and it is appreciated.

02-14-2003, 10:12 PM
Sure, post whatever you want. Turn off potential new customers from investing in Lightwave. Whatever. I mean, hey, it irks me because I feel it's causing harm to the software I'm devoted to, but this is America so say whatever you want.
I just don't understand the motivation. I don't understand what end is trying to be achieved by continuing to start new threads over and over about he said, she said in the 3D community about Lightwave's future. Does anyone really think that Newtek doesn't have a clue about what is going on? Does anyone here really think that you are clueing them in on something or what? And why post it publicly (again and again, I mean I can understand wanting to get feedback from other users but hasn't that been accomplished like months ago?) where now even Chuck has said that it does do harm. Are you trying to turn current users off? I just don't see the reasoning. Somebody explain it to me why this thread makes sense?

02-14-2003, 11:13 PM
Newtek dosen't think its so horrible, because Lux isn't developing the next version of LW. Newtek is.

02-15-2003, 01:50 AM
I think( but who cares, no really who cares...) that this thread is a good test for the new forum.... almost 2,000 posts, and it's very simple to jump to the last posts, unlike the old one (forum)..... where you had to wait so long sometimes for everything to load... cool !

keep posting.

02-16-2003, 03:36 AM
HA! Leave it to herve to point out a possible good out of all of this!!

I post on this thread to invite comments and to stir up ideas and thinking. I raised my issues open up other possible posters to share their experiences, not to deface NT. I think its clear that I'm not purposely harming NT or LW. I think that damage has been done entirely on its own and publicaly. Here we can toss back and forth and offer NT some feedback on issues relating to the topic.

instead, people are harping on this Luxology debacle. it is what it is. There's far worse thing that can happen. Look at what happened to Paul montgomery at Play. Not to be all gloom here, but there can be worse. My points were for NT to beat their drums where it was previously not with earshot, or had lost its reach, i.e. the article on LW similar to the VT article. I was trying to focus on what can be done and what benefits it could possibly bring. I don't believe there can be any possible 'collateral damage" that can be added.

I find it hard to accept that someone may come to the forums all cheery about getting LW, only to be turned off by our comments here. Like I said, there is plenty outside these forum that contribute far more to this. More to my point: there is plenty outside these forums that is not mentioned that also hurts LW, i.e lack of apple coverage, etc. Understand also that I spent much of the early nineties fighting the "low end" stigma that was often associated with Lw and the toaster because of the specticale that was the toaster/LW demos at the trade shows. So when I saw a return to this at the recent Siggraph, I really felt "oh no, not again!"

And I dare say that because of some of my comments, NT, I believe, later changed their Siggraph presentation in the days that followed. I'm not saying this out of arrogance, but more of relief. They do listen and they care. Not that i should have had any doubts. perhaps their perception was a bit off. i don;t know. but it was all for the better good...

02-16-2003, 06:32 AM
Years ago I used to complain (on the Newtek forum) that Lightwave never got a mention on Mac-centric websites. Things have since improved, and Lightwave is now given more coverage. I don't know... maybe my rantings encouraged the change.

I think it's OK to suggest ways in which promotion could be improved. I can't imagine anyone who is about to buy Lightwave would change their mind because they read that Lightwave promotions need improvement.

Luxology: It could be about Newtek in negotiations for Luxology to develop Lightwave, or Newtek could be negotiating with various individuals in Luxology, rather than Luxology as a whole. Their is a difference there. This doesn't mean that anyone is lying. Whatever is going on, it's taking too much time!

02-16-2003, 08:53 AM
Whether or not you mean to harm NT or LW Archiea, you are. Whether or not you believe people get turned off from LW by comments like this, they do. Chuck has just told you that people have contacted Newtek about the future of Lightwave after reading posts such as these. And as he said, who knows how many never contacted NT and just turned away.....
Maybe you're not familiar with the stock market or the Savings and loan industry. Make people question whether a bank or a stock is financially viable and even though it may be just fine, people will slowly stop to invest in that stock.
Stirring up ideas and thinking...Well we may as well be talking about the existance of God because in the end, is all up to a person's faith and talking about it just leads to a fight. Nobody knows the answer, and in the case of NT/Lux the ones who do know the answer aren't talking.
As long as we're speculating, here's mine:
Programmer A leaves company B (we'll call it newtek in this example) under bad terms. He's mad at the company and tells a industry insider friend of his that without him, the company is in trouble or at least is going to be worse without him/her. That insider friend talks to other insider friends and tells them that Newtek is in trouble and the company might go out of business. I mean you all know how going through several ears, the story can change considerably. Start a rumor that someobody has a cold and eventually, it's told enough times and the guy is going to be on his deathbed. Then one of those insider talks to Archiea or somebody else he knows that talks to Archiea. He posts to the public forums and now you have a whole community that has a reason to suspect that Newtek is somehow an unstable company.
Have you considered the idea that Newtek knows something that you don't that might cause them to refrain from making a statement? I think it's clear that enough people think they should disclose some kind of info about the NT/Lux debate that they have considered that and for whatever reason have declined to comment. It doesn't look like that's going to change.
Archiea, I'm not trying to attack you. I just believe it's to the point where I think these discussions are harming the LW community and I can't apologize for trying to defend that. I'm not trying to say either that you don't have a right to post either. I'm just saying that your posts have repercussions and in this case, these discussions do have an impact on Lightwave to an extent. Again, Chuck has said that people have contacted him after reading these posts or posts like them on whether or not it was safe to buy Lightwave. Nobody should have a reason to think that. You can make a company fail by making people think it will. I'm not saying you personally, but long-term.....I just think you should be taking your discussion to the people who actually know something. Because all of us here in the LW community are totally ignorant to the facts about NT/Lux and have nothing to add.

02-16-2003, 03:39 PM
I'm sorry, but I don't believe that negative posts are to blame for any collateral consequences from the Luxology issue. Newtek is fully responsible for its business and any negative backlash the issue caused, not any posts people may have read. If posts are the reason for any collateral consequences, it's because Newtek did not effectively smother the fire.

In my opinion, Newtek simply has not satisfactorily quelled or silenced this debate and speculation of LW's future. That is why it continues. They have not answered how someone could possibly say they are developing the next Lightwave if it simply isn't true. Nor have they answered the questions about the other LW programmers that have seemingly left Newtek and joined Luxology and what that means to the future of LW. I mean, what's going to happen to Hypervoxels and MotionMixer if the programmers have left? No answer there.

Sure, they say LW development is ongoing, but how is it going? As customers, we want to know this and should. What can we anticipate for the next version? It's simply not enough to say LW development is ongoing after what happened with Luxology. Somehow Newtek needs to give their side of the story as to what happened and what's going right to set the record straight. Not just literal truths, but their story. Someone needs to interview a rep at Newtek to get the low down or something like that. That's the only way the speculation will end. It's called good PR.

The only explanation as to why this hasn't happened is because no one is at liberty to say what happened. People must have to shut up for some reason. Well, you can't shut up about the details of the story and expect customers to do the same. It's not the customers fault for wanting to know the truth. It's not their fault for having feelings of uncertainty, it's Newtek's and whoever else is involved. It's the uncertainty that is fueling this thing. And until someone comes clean with the story and ends the uncertainty, the speculation and collatoral consequences will continue. My opinion: the damage really caught fire when Newtek said that they have absolutely nothing to do with Luxology. That was in stark contrast to what was publically stated by Luxology, saying they were developing Mecca and how it's going to be a big architectural change and everything. To say that Luxology has no connection with Newtek at all and not have any other comforting details for your customers was, for me, what got me nervous.

But...it's good to see Newtek doing the marketing that they are now doing. It's also comforting to hear good speculation, that the future of LW is bright and ongoing. So I hope there will be some buzz about the next LW as there was with LW6. I hope the next version will come soon.

02-16-2003, 04:00 PM
...The sooner , the better and it MUST be very good at least...

I think it's a Very difficult challenge for Newtek...

02-16-2003, 06:27 PM
I agree totally with Zithen....
So much endless speculation will only hurt future sales.

If NT wanted to stop Luxology from claiming ownership
of LW, it could all be done with a cease & assist order.
Of course, Ego's are hard to stop.... ;)

Unless you are trying to create a Media / Hype frenzy.
where everybody is talking about Lux & NT.
In which case it will only increase sales.

Unless people realise they are being taking for a ride,
in which case they will be burnt very badly.... :)

Sure you can't control, what Luxology says....
But i believe you can with a whole bunch of corporate lawyers. :)
Or maybe you just don't want too..... ;)

It was almost not noticed that the last training tour was sponsored by Luxology and Ford.

Does that not sound strange, for competing companies?
or mortal enemies? Unless they were trying to achieve something?

Also if integration was to be attempted, It would not be done in-house at NT, as it would take too much resources, and time.

It's like it would almost take another company of former employees, to take it to the next level. Hmmmmmm......

You may be better of putting a skeleton crew on your current plans, and put a big team on the future product. Hmmmmmm...

Of course this is just one way of looking at the facts...

And i could of course put a differen't spin on them all to suit
my POV.... It's that easy to do...

02-17-2003, 08:28 AM

Newtek doesn't have to disclose anything to us about their development. It would be counter productive for them to do so since that just lets every other company in the free world know what is going on with yours and gives them a competitive edge.
Besides, what right do any of you think you have to know anything? We are not shareholders, we really don't have any rights or say in how Newtek runs its business. Buying a lightbulb doesn't make you a shareholder of GE just like buying LW doesn't make you a shareholder of Newtek.
Who cares who is developing the next version of Lightwave? It's being developed so what's the differnce? If you don't like the next version of LW then I guess for you, it's time to switch 3D apps. What else do you really need to know? No other app lets their users know what is going on in development so why should we be different? Letting us know anything is the same as letting your competitors know.
If Newtek thinks that it will need to set the record straight then I'm sure it will. Maybe there is a reason they don't want to. What does it matter?
I'm not a rep of NT and I'm not even really trying to defend their business practices. I just use their product as my 3D app of choice and I just don't see why you would want to speculate about something you know nothing about and make potential new customers of NT turn away, that's all.
You say it's Netek's job to smother this fire. That's it. That' s the american way. Blame it on someone else. It's never your fault. Sue McDonald's because you were the dumbass who tried to drive and drink coffee at the same time and you burned yourself. Maybe Newtek could have handled things differently, but it's not their fault that people have decided, I'm assuming of their own free will, to post to the forum again and again about this subject causing doubt and confusion when they could have taken the argument to NT themselves. Which again, is the only thing that makes sense since they are the ones who know anything. Not us.

02-17-2003, 09:48 AM
y'know hrgiger...I just dont like your personality http://www.aoikenso.net/ap/cg/biggrin.gif

but I kinda fancy your haircut :p

02-17-2003, 10:13 AM
That's ok Tom. I'm not out to win a popularity contest.:D

02-17-2003, 10:49 AM
LNT not Tom,LNT Alex http://www.aoikenso.net/ap/cg/diss.gif :)

02-17-2003, 11:09 AM
I'm not suggesting Newtek disclose all the details about its development. That wouldn't be wise. Newtek is a private company, so they don't have to give any details whatsoever about their business. They don't have to do anything. That's not the point.
It's unfortunate that Newtek wasn't given a courtesy call with regards to the Luxology public statement so that all of this could have been avoided. It "appears" that that was out of Newtek's control.
But I think it's inaccurate and a mistake to say that it's the customer's fault for any consequences resulting from a particular issue. You don't blame the customer for any drop in sales or business. Period. It's a company's responsibility to handle any and ALL of their business, not the customer. It's just taking responsibility.

And if someone drinks coffe in the car, spills it and burns themselves, guess what? It's McDonald's responsibility to put warning lables on their products so they won't get sued again. And that's exactly what they and all business do, so they cover themselves. Responsibility.

Sure, Chuck said certain posts did not help LW sales. Who's the cause? Well, it wasn't Newtek that made the Lux statement or wrote any negative or speculative posts. But who's ultimately responsible for any collatoral consequences resulting from them? Newtek. Who's responsible for this whole thing? Newtek. If they can say they are the sole developers, creaters, marketers, etc. then they ultimately should hold the burdon of making LW a successful business. The buck stops there. No one, in my opinion, should point at the customers for any problems with LW's business. No one should say that what the customers said was what lowered sales. That's just not the right attitude. Even if word of mouth is indeed "causing" problems, the company should not address THAT. Rather, it should address the reasons why there was negative word of mouth in the first place. It's uncertainty about LW's future that is fueling the negative (or positive) speculation. The uncertainty was caused by Brad's and Chuck's conflicting statements, which was caused by who knows what. But as long as there is uncertainty, there will be speculation. And if giving a few details about LW's development would put an end to the speculation and get people excited about LW's future verses having people be uncertain about it and thus turn away and buy something else, well...then maybe that option should be considered...especially if it will improve LW's business. There's nothing wrong with shrewd and effective PR. Newtek can do that and still keep certain confidential info to themselves.

Newtek statements don't appear to be effectively solving the problem. Negative speculation continues and how will that help LW business? The only way it will end is when the uncertainty is eliminated.

Saying LW's development is ongoing and that Allen and Stuart contracts are in place and all those other literal truths are fine, appropriate and proper. But people don't want literal truths. They want a story. A story doesn't have to be true, but as long as it captivates your emotions and imagination, you will believe it and be moved by it. Right or wrong, true or not, Brad told a story and got people's attention. It was exciting. Imagine if Newtek told their true story? It's the human factor. Personalize the thing and win people over and back it up with great product. People want to feel safe and excited about LW's future. It's really just that simple. And it's Newtek's job to get to the bottom of what their customers really want and address those wants and needs to stay in good business. When Newtek gives their story, you'll see a whole different tone within the words of mouths.

02-17-2003, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by LNT
LNT not Tom,LNT Alex http://www.aoikenso.net/ap/cg/diss.gif :)

Sorry LNT, I must have been looking at another post when I wrote that....:rolleyes:

02-17-2003, 12:12 PM

I don't disagree with a lot of what you've said. (well, other then the McDonald's comment. We've been drinking coffee now for hundreds of years. We've been using transportation of some kind for even longer. You're a moron if you don't know that the two don't always mix and you do risk burning yourself. Why does McDonald's have to put a label on their coffee when we should already know it's hot. We'd complain if it weren't. Je$us Christ. Personally, I think that old bag who spilled her coffee and got the big settlement from McDonalds should have been laughed out of court.)

I guess my question is, as a LW user, why would you spend your time having disucssions about this when you know it has negative repercussions on Lightwave sales no matter whose fault it is? Don't you want LW to be successful. It just seems like bitterness just because you don't get to know right now what's really going on. That is my whole issue. I don't care whose fault it is, users or NT.

02-17-2003, 01:15 PM
Make sure you have all the facts before passing judgement:


02-17-2003, 01:26 PM

Well, this may sound cold but I don't get any percentage of the profits, stock options, dividends or anything else from Newtek except a good product that fulfills my needs as a 3d artist/producer. If LW ceases to be a competetive product, then my loyalty will regretably go elsewhere. I loved the Amiga, but I had to move to Windows.

If I didn't want LW or Newtek to be successful then I wouldn't be saying anything at all. You must express your needs and concerns to Newtek for them to give you what you want. By giving customers what they want, they stay in business.

I think Newtek has, in their hearts and minds, said and done everything they think they can do under the circumstances regarding the Lux issue. But they must know that they aren't solving the problem effectively and it's not because it's the customers fault or because customers are slow or just won't except those literal truths because they just want to complain all the time.
They must eliminate the uncertainty at all costs, clear up the Lux issue and put an end to the negative speculation. At all costs. It's that important. And I believe they must do it through shrewd and effective PR that hits people on an emotional level. Because even when Newtek releases LW8, this Luxology issue will leave a bad taste in people's mouths for a long time if Newtek does not do something that shows they care and understand about their customers concerns and want to make them feel at ease.
I respect Chuck's posts, but frankly I don't feel they have been effective at all. He says he's not copying/pasting the post. I'm sure he isn't. But what I don't feel he understands is how people interpret them when they see the same sentences written the same way over and over again, even in different forums. It really appears that he is cutting and pasting. I don't think he realizes how he's really insulting people's intelligences. We can comprehend what he's saying. He's just not telling us what we want to hear so the speculation continues. Chuck knows what's going on behind the scenes and it's not easy to step out of your perspective and try to see through another, but that's what has to be done in order to effectively solve the issues and help ease people's "feelings" of uncertainty that still remains. Literal truths are not exciting, inspiring nor moving. People have been trying to convey this to Newtek in various ways but no one at Newtek is listening. Larry Shultz's posts have been the only thing that's somewhat eased my worries. He gave some indication that he is excited about LW's future and direction. But again, it's Newtek's job to do this...not users in the know.

It's my opinion that if Newtek does not change their PR on this issue very soon, it will have serious consequences in the future, even if LW8 comes out. People want to feel safe, secure and excited about their investment in the 3d app and the company that sells it. It takes time and money to master the program and pay for upgrades, so this is a long term investment. All this matters and we should let Newtek know it matters if we want them to be successful. Question is, are they listening?

02-17-2003, 02:30 PM
You're right Matt. I was unaware that she was actually holding it between her knees. She's even more stupid then I first thought. 2.7 million for being stupid. I'm in the wrong business.

02-17-2003, 02:42 PM
Hi, Zithen!

There are days I really do wish I was that big an idiot. Life would be a lot easier! :)

Aside from the debatable evaluation of my intellectual defects (well, I like to think it's debatable ;)), you seem to me to have lost sight of the fact that in company public relations the person posting the messages is not necessarily free to determine what to post. And that there are times when what can be said and how it must be said publicly have necessary contraints, and this situation is most certainly one of them. If, by doing what is right and appropriate and necessary, some feel we have given offense, well, that is certainly regrettable, but please try to bear in mind that no offense is even remotely intended, and it is very certainly not the case that we should have been doing anything otherwise than we've been doing, by necessity.

Please also rest assured that we are most certainly listening. And when appropriate, we will have plenty to say and I'm sure you will find that the future for NewTek's LightWave 3D is absolutely unlimited and totally awesome! You're going to need shades, my friend! :cool:

02-17-2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
You're right Matt. I was unaware that she was actually holding it between her knees. She's even more stupid then I first thought. 2.7 million for being stupid. I'm in the wrong business.

What was stupid was still serving coffee at 185° after having over 700 claims. I can't believe McDonald's legal department let that continue for so long. I think she deserved more than the $200,000 + $480,000 punitive damage.

Bionic Antboy
02-17-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by mattclary
Make sure you have all the facts before passing judgement:


Not that it has ANYTHING to do with Newtek/LW etc, but amen. Well, maybe it does, I'll see if I can tie it together... :)

Lot's of people like to cast judgements without being fully informed. As McDonalds kept their coffee about 50(!) degrees hotter than just about anyone else, Brad Peebler's enthusiasm for LW runs pretty darn hot. When that enthusiasm spilled out into the lap of Newtek (via the internet), this whole tempest in a tea(coffee?) pot was stirred up.

See, at least I tied it in, somewhat tenuously. :)

02-17-2003, 03:26 PM
At last, this discussion is finally turning towards actual important matters....

Now about Mcdonald's.

It doesn't matter whether the coffee was 185 degrees or 100 degrees, it was still going to suck for her if she spilled it in her lap. She should have known not to put it between her knees. She's dumb and I hope her kids enjoy that money for having to put up with such a moron.

02-17-2003, 03:32 PM
And good to hear Chuck. Long live LW.

02-17-2003, 04:31 PM
Thanks Chuck,

That's the kind of excitment and confidence I think we all want to hear from Newtek. Yeah, that's the way to do it. Get excited for goodness sakes. Are you excited? If so feel free to let us in on it so we can get excited too. Now I've got my shades ready. :cool:
I think Newtek needs to say more of that and less of the literal facts for they aren't what bolsters confidence in the consumer, in my opinion.

Like I said, I respect the fact the you know much more of the issue and thus are doing what you and Newtek feel is necessary. I just hope Newtek realizes that consumers don't really care about who owns what, who has the rights to develop what, what contracts are in place and so on as I'm sure Newtek must be concerned with. I can understand that it is necessary to exhort ownership and rights over a product, especially if someone challanges that ownership. But that's a corporate thing. We could care less, quite frankly. It really is the truth. As long as Newtek appeals to the consumer's sensibilities, you won't have negative speculation. It will be put to an end.
And what do we want? To know that LW's future is sound, exciting, has a focused vision and that in the end it will answer as many feature requests and bug fixes as possible. And maybe introduce something new and revolutionary. That's always nice. And to know Newtek will deliver. I think that's what we all want. Newtek may think it's necessary to state it's OWN needs, but for us users we don't care, so why insist on giving us what we don't want? I'm just trying to tell ya. Just a suggestion: Always strive to appeal and serve the customer's needs and do it as soon as possible. For as Newtek serves its customers, it serves itself. You don't want to give people a bad taste in their mouths that lasts far longer than you'd want them to.

02-17-2003, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by Chuck
I'm sure you will find that the future for NewTek's LightWave 3D is absolutely unlimited ...

you guys thinking what i'm thiniking? :D

02-17-2003, 11:27 PM
But how would we get the cheese through the holes?

02-17-2003, 11:42 PM
Now that is just darn funny. :D :D

And I don't even know what you're talking about. :cool:

Chris S. (Fez)
02-18-2003, 02:01 AM
"You're going to need shades"

Good one, Chuck! I think that (or some variation of it) might deserve a prominent place in Lightwave's promotional material.

"See, at least I tied it in, somewhat tenuously."

Nothing tenuous about it, Bionic. :) You have exposed the cosmic connections between Newtek, Luxology, a boiling beverage, and a clumsy lady's lap. It all seems so obvious now...

lol Digilusionist

02-18-2003, 02:52 AM
you guys thinking what i'm thiniking?


02-18-2003, 03:18 AM
McDonalds deserved to get sued. You or I or most careful people would be capable of lifting a hot cup of coffee through a car window without spilling it. However, it could be taken for granted that sooner or later someone would drop the hot coffee in their lap. The lawsuit has caused McDonalds to change their practices so that the incident doesn't happen again. I don't know who would want to drink McDonalds coffee anyway. Give me the real Italian stuff any day!

I notice that the tone on some of the Luxology related posts in this thread is becoming more panicky. I think there is more at stake for the companies involved, rather than the user. Both companies are capable of developing Lightwave. Both companies want to develop Lightwave. Nobody seriously believes that Newtek or Lux want to stop being involved with Lightwave. So there you go. Development will continue, whatever the scenario. We just have to wait for the legal wrangling to be done with.

02-18-2003, 04:34 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
McDonalds deserved to get sued. You or I or most careful people would be capable of lifting a hot cup of coffee through a car window without spilling it. However, it could be taken for granted that sooner or later someone would drop the hot coffee in their lap. The lawsuit has caused McDonalds to change their practices so that the incident doesn't happen again.

you mean the 'dropping' incident or the 180 degree kind of temperatures and the burns they produced?

certainly the burns that the plaintiff sustained were pretty serious. and i'd leave it at that. i dont think the accident was avoidable, for mcdonald's or the woman. and i dont think mcdonald's is to be blamed for the slippage. only the temperature, that was too high.

is it true that in some states spanking your child may be considered illegal? if so, what are those states?

02-18-2003, 05:37 AM
Steve I find your attitude rather callous. Even if she had not put it between her knees, she would have had to hold it OVER her lap to open the lid. Do you know what "debridement" means? It's where they scrub off all the dead tissue. :eek: She only sought $200k, the JURY decided to award the huge sum. For someone who believes in taxing the rich so heavily, you seem to feel an awful lot of sympathy for McDonald's loss of 2 days of coffee sales.

"Liebeck, who also underwent debridement treatments, sought to settle her claim for $20,000, but McDonald's refused."

The jury also found her partialy to blame:

"The jury awarded Liebeck $200,000 in compensatory damages. This amount was reduced to $160,000 because the jury found Liebeck 20 percent at fault in the spill. The jury also awarded Liebeck $2.7 million in punitive damages, which equals about two days of McDonald's coffee sales."

02-18-2003, 07:15 AM
Matt, my attitude is rather callous. Guilty as charged. I don't see that you should be offened by that. I hope you can seperate personal views from general life here in the forum. I mean, I don't really understand your republican views but I don't let that affect my life here on the forum with you. I really appreciate your advice in helping me with the pc buying decision in the PC forum. It doesn't matter that you're a repbulican, I can still appreciate good advice.
Now having said that, let me give a word of advice to anybody with half a brain cell functioning. NEVER put a hot cup of coffee between your knees while opening the lid. I don't care if you're Suzanne Sommers who's been doing the thigh master for years and could probably crush a cue ball between your knees. Chances are, you'll end up buring yourself, and I don't see how that's anybody's fault but your own. McDonalds shouldn't put a warning on their cups that says "Caution:Hot!" because we should already know that. They should put a warning that says "Coffee is supposed to be served hot so don't burn yourself a$$hole!"
Taxing the rich and how I feel about McDonald's in this case are completely two seperate things. It's not about any money that McD's lost. I just disagree with rewarding stupidity in this country like we do with frivilous lawsuits like these. Nobody wants to take any responsibility for their own actions. It's always somebody else's fault. Let me tell you something, if someone were to ever break in my house and slip and fall on a broken floor tile. You can be sure I'll kill him before he ever has a chance to sue me because he fell over a broken floor tile in my own house. And I think that pretty much sums up how I feel about that.
But actually I do want to defend McDonald's on a sidenote. They were one of the first fast food restaurants to get rid of styrofoam packaging, the first to stop buying beef from countries where rain forests were being destroyed to make pasture land for cattle, and most recently, the first to stop buying chickens from farms where they mistreated the animals.
And yes, I know what debridement means. Debridement is actually a surgical procedure where they remove dead or damaged tissue. Either way, whether they scrubbed it off or cut it off under the knife, I'm sure she had pain meds. We generally don't toture people in our hospitals.

Bionic Antboy
02-18-2003, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by hrgiger
Chances are, you'll end up buring yourself, and I don't see how that's anybody's fault but your own. McDonalds shouldn't put a warning on their cups that says "Caution:Hot!" because we should already know that. They should put a warning that says "Coffee is supposed to be served hot so don't burn yourself a$$hole!"
Taxing the rich and how I feel about McDonald's in this case are completely two seperate things. It's not about any money that McD's lost. I just disagree with rewarding stupidity in this country like we do with frivilous lawsuits like these.

At the same time, having coffee spilled on you shouldn't have the same effect as Alien acid eating through Hicks' armour. This woman wasn't alone either. 700 claims in 10 years adds up to more than a person per week! That's why the woman deserved money. Accidents happen, but spilt coffee shouldn't do that kind of damage. McDs knew the dangers of having such hot coffee. There's no NEED for coffee to be undrinkably hot, and the only stupidity the woman was guilty of is having poor taste in coffee.

I think that the woman's initial claim was reasonable. It was the jury that wanted to give her the big bucks (which is a problem with an overly litigious nation to be sure). She wanted $20,000 for her costs and pain and suffering. McD's should have given it to her, and not gone to court, because the WERE partially at fault. Unfortunately, it took a lawsuit after 10 years to get them to lower the temp of their brew.

Heck, I've had a lot more fresh brewed coffee than that spilled on my legs and feet, and it never did that kind of damage. Years ago when I worked as a waiter, a co-worker's coffee pot handle snapped at the metal band, dumping about half a pot on my right leg and into my shoes. It hurt, and was red for a day, but that's about it. I imagine that if that happened with McD's coffee, I would have suffered the same level of burns this woman suffered. If I had to go to the hospital, I wouldn't have expected to pay for it either. Then again, something like this is covered here in Canada, so....

In the end, I can understand the callousness regarding the lawsuit crazy mentality that has permeated the North American culture over the past 15 years, but I don't think that the McDonalds coffee lawsuit is a good poster child for it.

Just MHO.


02-18-2003, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by hrgiger
StartEdit: A lot of crap..blah, blah...../EndEdit

I've read the thread, and it's pretty apparent you're like Lightwave. Then you go and hassle people who have concern about the product, ie the development. Then you start yelling and screaming about why should they post this, private message this etc.

Originally posted by hrgiger
Personally, I've said my peace, I have to get back to something I'm working on in Lightwave....

Just remember you said this on page one, but you seem to keep showing up on page three.

It just goes on and on. It's better to have a discussion rather than preach to people, don't you think? The fact you feel hurt that others are concerned about Lightwave, not from "a run in the fields, smell the daisies and jump for glee" kind of way shouldn't be insulting to you to post crap like:

Originally posted by hrgiger
I hope you can seperate personal views from general life here in the forum. I mean, I don't really understand your republican views but I don't let that affect my life here on the forum with you.

But you find time to spout off all your personal views on the forum like:

Originally posted by hrgiger
It doesn't matter whether the coffee was 185 degrees or 100 degrees, it was still going to suck for her if she spilled it in her lap. She should have known not to put it between her knees. She's dumb and I hope her kids enjoy that money for having to put up with such a moron.

If you ever took a law course, you would find out a term called "contributory negligence" Basically, from the eyes of the law, they look at a situation and the consequences and the point of a "reasonable person" or what a "reasonable person" would do. The fact that the woman used her legs, while in a car to hold the cup of coffee in place for a short moment, isn't that unreasonable for most. If the coffee wasn't scalding hot, to the point where it was very dangerous (proven by her wounds) the dammage was serious. If the coffee was at a safe temperature (read reasonable temperature) it's a different story. The jury deemed that she was 20% at fault in the situation, from their point of view.

Surpressing opinions rarely is a good thing. The fact you don't like negative ones tends to seem a little too hypersensitive to this issue. If you want people to read, listen and evaluate your opinion, please do the same for others. Debating something is healthy, but I thought that ended with:

Originally posted by hrgiger
Personally, I've said my peace, I have to get back to something I'm working on in Lightwave....

Originally posted by hrgiger
I'm not out to win a popularity contest.

You're leading the nuisance contest voting though.

Which will come first, LW8 or some sense from your keyboard?

02-18-2003, 01:53 PM
hey ????!!!!!
wy people alway ask so much question about the next version of the softwar they use ???
when they should be working and doing great stuff with the curent version....????

i just loosed almost one hour reading th whol thread...

ok the story with macdonald is interesting...
but do uyou relly believe this area is to speack about mcdonald and judgemnt decision...

to stop every rumor...i tell you the thrut about lw8

it's would komme out the 35 november and would be availlable in 3 different flavor .. vanilla,chocolat, and lemon...

and you can only pay in tibetan currency !!!

for my part i would not order it and shift to maya 5.. cause a friend of mine telled me they would make it availlable with
strawsberry flavor ..
and cause i love strawsberry i have to move to maya ... :-(

but they would have some plugin... like .. sundae sauce.. ,peanut butter , and marschmallow creme

every year the same dicussion about the futur of your software..
are you not tiired ???

sorry .. me tired have to loose som pression...

i love evry one of you... cause we share the same passion :-)

02-18-2003, 02:17 PM
Love the post, Xtrm3D! I don't know if it's the broken English (no insult intended) :) but that just struck me funny as hell!

02-18-2003, 02:34 PM
merci beaucoup...
lol for the english ..
i am now lerning singlish.. :-)
sinnagpor dialect hahahahha ( mix of chines and english )
real funny ...:D

02-18-2003, 08:11 PM

I personally found the McDonald's discussion much more interesting then the Lux/NT one. I was glad to see it come to that.;)


Ok. Somebody has their grumpy hat on.

02-18-2003, 11:17 PM
Once upon a time, a lady was stupid enough to put her little kitty in a microwave to make it dry from the rain..... she sued the microwave Co. for not putting a note about why you should not put a cat in it....!!

02-18-2003, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by Hervé
Once upon a time, a lady was stupid enough to put her little kitty in a microwave to make it dry from the rain..... she sued the microwave Co. for not putting a note about why you should not put a cat in it....!!

what happened to the cat's body?

lady should be charged with first degree catslaughter, and be sentenced to at least four years secondary school.

(did you know that cockroaches are impervious to microwaves? try putting a cockroach in a microwave oven and witness why cockroaches, though disgusting, are one of the best survivors :D )

02-18-2003, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by xtrm3d

for my part i would not order it and shift to maya 5.. cause a friend of mine telled me they would make it availlable with
strawsberry flavor ..
and cause i love strawsberry i have to move to maya ... :-(

i like strawberry mysefl.

xsi 4 is going to be available in terikyaki. hmm-hmm.

02-19-2003, 12:20 AM
beside the fact that this nt/lux discussion boring and pointless ist...cause every one o us know.. it's would one day be a version 8 then later 10 and so on..
but as alway.. nt will keep it secret until they judge it's time to release...

I personally found the McDonald's discussion much more interesting then the Lux/NT one. I was glad to see it come to that.

if the macdonalds stuff is so interessting ... ??? why dont you go to a macdonald dedicated forum ??? lol

i come here and expect to read stuff about 3d and lightwave..
not about macdonald or the color of the underware some people are wearing.....

please let us use this forum for his initial purpose... let talk about 3d and lightwave .. but juste about fact.. not extrapolation of urban legend.....

xsi 4 is going to be available in terikyaki. hmm-hmm.

stop to lie !!!!
it's not true.... it's not truuuuuuueeeeee......

cause my insider friend telled me that..........
xsi4 would never be released ...cause avide want to leave the cg business.. and start a fast food imperium ... after they saw.. that many 3d people are more interested in macdonald story as using lightwave to make cool picture ... sure sure believe me... i swear

no offense intended by the way...
it's just my french provocative stat of mind... lol

i still love you :-)

02-19-2003, 02:14 AM
hey Chuck cOOl awatar:) heheh
finally i saw big dady!

keep on rockin bring us food i mean new lw:)

02-19-2003, 11:50 AM
I've been going around for about 6 months on what 3d app to buy for personal use and for curriculum development and perhaps utlimately for commercial production work. I get educational discount and will upgrade to professional if that is warrented (I swear!!), so I'm looking closely at each apps place in the market. I use 3DS MAX at work (and have been using 3DS the since DOS version R2) so that would be the logical one to purchase. But I'm really, REALLY leaning towards Lightwave, for reasons that are by now cliche. As a potential customer the rumors don't worry me too much...all of the major apps have had their share of rumors of doom.

One thing that struck me was a comment about lack of PR re: LW in big productions. I don't know how many times I've heard the same thing in the 3DS MAX forum..."Why can't we (max) get as good PR as lightwave...the lightwave gallery is so cool",,,,etc.

One factor in Lightwaves representation in the industry may be that (and this is just my own dumb theory) many of its users are not just "3D" people but are also involved in a wide range of media; LW is just one tool in their tool box. So they may not devote as much energy to promoting 3D. For me, its the ease of productivity I've seen from watching others use LW that is one of factors in my purchase decision.

02-19-2003, 03:52 PM
Lightwave's 32bpc renderer produces far superior image quality than Max's. There's no question there. If only we knew who was developing it!

02-19-2003, 07:37 PM
kevin...for whatever it is worth...i too came from a 3dsmax background and jumped on board with LightWave about 2 years ago and I can honestly say that I haven't regretted it for 1 day.

LightWave does everything I need it to do and more. I love modeling in it...i love rendering in it...and I love rendering to HI-RES in it.

I'm not much the animator, but damn man...my best friend has done some amazing animation in it...and he too was a Max devotee for so long. But no more. :D

Anyway...if you take the plunge you won't regret it for a second...and hell man...it currently costs as much as an upgrade to the latest version of max which is still lacking in so many departments which LightWave excels in.


02-19-2003, 11:48 PM
I can't keep quite after spending all that time reading through this thread. Hey those were some good positive posts. I can't believe it, after sitting on my bum for an hour reading this forum the last couple of posts sounded positive. It does my heart good to hear some positive comments on Lightwave. Sure we can all say whatever we want about the whole NT and Lux thing but at the end of the day we will support and stand by LW.

I do tend to lean towards Hrgiger's viewpoints. I don't think it helps Lightwave in any way, to release into the air all of this speculation about relations with Lux and production of LW. Then again I like to live an a world where everything will work out in the end. I find that a positive attitude in any situation (even if it is not positive at all) can make it positive. Ppl say that say having a cheerfull attitude doesn't help the situation, but IMHO they are quite frankly incorrect.

Oh and Chuck I got mine.:cool:

02-20-2003, 12:48 AM

Okay, my turn to post :) I too just finished reading this thread.

I keep hearing stuff about the LUX/NT debacle. Well, after reading this thread, I don't know of any rumors. The closest things were the reports/warnings about the public/professional opinions and misinformation that exist outside the community. There's a lot of talk about how bad this is for LW.

I thought the suggestions made about the marketing of LW were interesting and thought provoking. I thought the comments about the PR failings of NT were... Um, I really don't care. I haven't been paying that close attention to the whole situation. I didn't know there was a problem.

The McDonalds thing was enlightening but really OT... A break from the madness I guess.

I realize that this thread is referencing a lot of stuff from a previous thread on the old forum but I don't think it had to. It seemed to be started as suggestion to NT.

Anyway, it did get tiring to hear the same things over and over again. I'd feel bad about not adding anything new to the discussion, but there isn't a lot of original material anyway. You may be wondering why I'm even bothering to post. I'm thinking that I've invested so much time in reading this that I feel compelled to chime in.


02-20-2003, 03:46 AM
tasty and chewy.. vanilla.. flavor... sluuuurrrppp

02-20-2003, 03:46 AM
tasy and chewy.. vanilla.. flavor... sluuuurrrppp

02-20-2003, 09:36 AM
I had a realization this morning.

It doesn't matter if NT does announce a target release date. We all know it'll be released L8.

(ugh... groan.... bad joke... sorry, I was up late last night)


02-20-2003, 11:18 PM
Ohhhh. I get it. Hehe.

02-20-2003, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by Psyhke
Ohhhh. I get it. Hehe.

yeah.. i just got it too, right now. (weak brain).:confused:

02-23-2003, 06:02 PM
Newtek has advertised the following job vacancies:

*3D Rendering Engineer
*3D Modeling Engineer
*3d Animation Engineer
*3D Dynamics Engineer
*User Interface Engineer

The job advertisement also states:
"Because we are growing at the speed of light, we will be posting more listings as soon as they become available."

These new programing jobs will be located at the Newtek offices in San Antonio, Texas. As we know, in years gone by, the programing of Lightwave was mainly done in Newtek's San Francisco office, which was recently disbanded.

To me, the creation of a Lightwave programing team in San Antonio seems to be something new. It also suggests that Newtek is not cooperating with Luxology.

02-23-2003, 06:18 PM
Newtek's been saying that they aren't working with Luxology.

Strange thing is that Allen and Stuart are still supposed to be working on LW and evidently can't be involved in the creation of any other app that competes with LW, like a 3d app. And I distinctly remember Mark Brown (of MotionMixer) confirm on his mailing list that he was working on "Mecca" and that the next LW was going to be a killer app. Now it feels like he's not even going to be working on Motion Mixer anymore because of some communication issues with Newtek or because he's much too busy with the "other" work.

Maybe everyone at Lux are still working on LW and Newtek is just hiring more programmers to get the job done faster. :)

Whatever is going on, it looks like LW is in good hands and has a bright future. I'm just wondering how far the next upgrade will be since they're just now hiring new people. But that's the only disappointment for me. Looks good otherwise.

02-23-2003, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
Newtek has advertised the following job vacancies:

To me, the creation of a Lightwave programing team in San Antonio seems to be something new. It also suggests that Newtek is not cooperating with Luxology.

To YOU... Y O U, it seems to be something "new". To YOU.. yes Y O U, it SUGGESTS (in your mind) that Newtek isn't "cooperating" with Luxology. I feel differently, as others may. We're just letting things lay where they may instead of losing sleep over this or creating more out of it than it seems. No smoking guy.. no X-files, please move along... nothing to see here.


People of Iraq need to rise up against their dictator and chose their life.

02-24-2003, 06:46 AM
FWIW, 3ds max 3.1 was the last version which involved the original YOST development group. I think that as of version 5, noone from the YOST group is still on board.

I know that a TON of the old hands left Alias/Waefront when they closed down the Santa Barbra offices.

02-24-2003, 09:29 AM
Yup.. that just goes to show that it's not just studios that downsize or have a decent turn-over rate. Also, that doesn't mean doom and gloom just because people leave, offices shut down or new hires are posted on a website. Some people hate change while others see it as a positive thing. Newtek could be making a concerted effort to fix internal problems by initiating change. SOME on the outside would interpret that as the end of Newtek, of course they aren't in the know so it's almost useless to speculate.

02-24-2003, 11:02 AM
Exactly Pixelmonk.

02-25-2003, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by Zithen

If I didn't want LW or Newtek to be successful then I wouldn't be saying anything at all. You must express your needs and concerns to Newtek for them to give you what you want. By giving customers what they want, they stay in business.


It's my opinion that if Newtek does not change their PR on this issue very soon, it will have serious consequences in the future, even if LW8 comes out. People want to feel safe, secure and excited about their investment in the 3d app and the company that sells it. It takes time and money to master the program and pay for upgrades, so this is a long term investment. All this matters and we should let Newtek know it matters if we want them to be successful. Question is, are they listening?

That is too noble to fit in the real world. Believe it or not, many companies don't subscribe to that way of thinking. Many companies listen to their customer base to a point. After that, they ultimately make their own decisions, or their board of directors does it for them, regardless of what a large or small group of customers wants. That doesn't mean they still won't be profitable or their customer base will shrink. Priorities come in to play too. If there are 100 things that customers would like to see changed or implimented, those things need to be prioritized and ultimately some things fall off the list or get put on hold. That's the way business goes.

Newtek is listening. This is their server and these are their forums. They won't budge based on 1000+ threads about the future of Newtek or the Newtek versus Luxology so why continue with this? They've always been the type of company that when THEY are ready to put out information, they will. If people really cared or considered themselves loyal customers, they too would realize this senseless drivel does nothing to help Newtek or its employees. I'd hate it if I went on public forums and my customers were bad-mouthing me, yapping about the end of the company and calling us liars. I'm sure you wouldn't like it either. It's amazing how Chuck, William and the others just haven't gone off and flamed people for such comments. They certainly have more restraint that me... oooor... maybe they know something we don't know. Hmmmmmm?

Let this die.. it serves no purpose. When they're ready they'll let us know. If you feel you've mastered 7.5 100% and can't see how it can continutally help you in your job then maybe you should look at another program to add to your toolbelt. Lightwave works well with plugins like Maya. >:)

02-25-2003, 08:51 AM
This is such a silly post. I guess the silliest ones live on and on.

NewTek's been like this for years. And those companies (read: people) that decide not to wait for the next incarnation of lw will do that regardless. Announcing something just for the sake of keeping those companies (read: people) would be a very poor practice.
Those that move on will have great envy once it is out and those of us that waited will have great fun with the latest and greatest.
We're all investors in NewTek's future: why piss in our pot?
They listen to what makes sense, e.g., improvements on their product line, but they don't bother with our business 'consultations' because it wouldn't serve their purposes.

My addition to this silliness. :mad:
An Investor,
Robert Wilson
UnCommon Grafx

02-25-2003, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by UnCommonGrafx
They listen to what makes sense, e.g., improvements on their product line, but they don't bother with our business 'consultations' because it wouldn't serve their purposes.

Yeah.... my "free box of Krispie Kreme donuts with each purchase of a Newtek product" never got to the powers that be. :(

That's ok though.. I still have a Toaster2 (soon an additional one) and Lightwave which makes me forget about the whole donut thing.

02-25-2003, 09:08 AM
I heard that, as part of the L8 roll-out, Newtek will be offering a "diagonally-down-to-the-left grade" for users of Notepad :eek:

(got to get this thread de-railed somehow)

02-25-2003, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by kevin3d
I heard that, as part of the L8 roll-out, Newtek will be offering a "diagonally-down-to-the-left grade" for users of Notepad :eek:

(got to get this thread de-railed somehow)

Heck.. they offer so many cross/side/diagonal grades.. why not!!!

02-25-2003, 09:17 AM
Well I'm not going to add anymore to the already uncertin feuture of LW as most people share. Even though I do feel those question do count I would like to draw Chcuks attention to more of marketing LW, not that I'm a Marketing Specialist of any kind, but it's worth a try

I'm sure all some of you have heard about 3DBuzz.com yeah that amazing site with amazing tutorials and insight of all 3D application.
Now the thing that struck me is that when going to the VTM section (Which is the most popular section os the site) the way VTM work is that Buzz makes these vidoe about the PLE programs out there, and each major comany does support him to make these vidoes abilable, When you go there, You'll not find any coursewere for Lightwave. the reason the VTM are so popular is that it gives the new customer that want's to buy a 3D application to try the software and listen to it's advanteges ans weeknesses. and Buzz does make a good job in this area. Every VTM talks about a program and covers the advantegs and weeknessess of the program along with how the PLE addition works and it's also guids the user with a Training on how to use the program.

Now for the best case, we all heard about Houdini3D from Sidefx.com and we all know that Houdini was a only used by a special people and that it's one of the hardest 3D software out there. now the program gone through allot of updates and became extremely easy, NOW please understand that I'm not advertising Houdini. so after doing Houdini 5 and later Houdini 5.5 it was up to SideFX to advertise Houdini, so they made a PLE addition, and it's one of the best PLE out there, it does have a watermark and the only limitation is that you can't render more than 640*840 and the rest of the program have no any other limitation, unless the format of the scene counts. Also the Small watermark is good. Now this is the first thing that Houdini Did and people just loved it. for them this was no1, this was a plus for Sidefx because people were able to test the program to the most with all the feature and all the product range, from Houdini Select up to Houdini Master.

No.2 was when SideFX apprached 3DBuzz.com and asked him to make not only VTMs but a Free Course on Houdini. and sinse that day own I've becoming to hear houdini more than Lightwave. unless you visit Flay.com every day :D

No.3 when visiting the SideFX.com community site you'l be amazed by the shear number of High quality Video tutorial on their site the explains everything and gived advanced courses for FREE.

This all made Houdini sales go stronger and stronger and made more people know what houdini is all about.

The Lightwave Tutorial section is great and I'm not undermining Willimas effort on that, but don't you at least think that a FULL Video tutorial the shows a complete project from A-Z more interesting for both a Newbie user and an already lightwave user?

the feed back these people have to say about Houdini is amazing and the Houdini course forum is even more amazing. and these poeple that trying Houdini com from different background (Maya, XSI, Lightwave...etc) but they all had the chance to try and learn a program that available to every one.

So Chuck why not apprach 3DBuzz.com and have him make something similar for Lightwave, I mean the only place Lightwave is mention in the site is in the Tutorial section. and as for the VTMs it's disappointing, I mean my friends go to 3DBuzz and the first question they ask me why isn't Lightwave mentioned. Why do 3dsMax have 4 Issues of VTMs and nothing for Lightwave, why is ZBrush mentioned and not Lightwave, Motion Builder, XSI, Maya, Photoshop, PHP and SQL...etc??? it's dounting and it makes people not from a Lightwave community feel that lightwave is not up to the hall of fame, now imagine what does that make for a lightwace user.

The Tutorial section in NT site is great and it does show that LW is used else where and in the gaming industry, but when a bunch (or even hundereds, thousend) go to 3DBuzz.com and look at the VTMs releated to Quake3 and UT2003 section and see that the only listed programs for doing levels and models for UT2003 are 3DMAX and Maya, I think having a tutorial on a lightwave3d.com wont be interesting to anyone in the undustry. sorry but that's the truth.

I sorry if the above seemed dounting to anyone and it seemd that it makes more problem to the issue in hand than it needs, but please know that it's for the good of lightwave, and I think NT does appreciate the feed back and comments from it's users for the benfit of Lightwave. and I hope this message is understood the same.

Anyways, Chcuk and william and the rest of NT crew thank you for a Lightwave :D


long time isnowboard :D

02-25-2003, 09:31 AM
I definitely agree with updating the LW PLE to include more functionality but I think the reason why there aren't any sizeable amount of tutorials on 3DBuzz is LW'ers have other resources at their fingertips for tutorials....

http://members.shaw.ca/lightwavetutorials/ (The mac daddy of sites)

Also, 3DBuzz seemingly develops the VTMs themselves (at least that's what I'm made to believe by this):

"...as sponsorship provides the financial backbone necessary to allow 3D Buzz to keep producing VTMs in a timely manner."

Talking to the 3DBuzz peeps would be the best bet as they're the ones that seem to be developing these things and not the developers of Max, Maya or Zbrush.

02-25-2003, 09:38 AM
pixelmonk you are true, but I wasn't commenting on the former sites that All Lightwave users know and appreciate, I also believe that Lightwave community have one of the largest Tutorial databases of anyother program. but that's not the point, cause these are LW sites and not for all the industry to watch. I mean why would a Maya user bother login to Flay.com or Luxology.com or Lightwave3D.com...etc but he would bother him self logging to CgChannel and 3DBuzz.com and insideCg.com and Highend3D.com because all the industry hangs there and these are the first places and most popular places a newbie hnags for information.

As for the VTMs your right about Buzz community making these VTMs and not by the developers of Max, ZBrush and Maya. But they do encourge Buzz to do them.


02-25-2003, 09:59 AM
I agree with promoting LW on other 3D industry sites. Out of the ones you listed, I think CGChannel does the best job of being non-bias when posting. Highend3d is the worst.. stuck up bast*....

02-25-2003, 01:48 PM
yyyeeeeeshhhh... people lets not forget..that the industry isn't the best right now... I think everyone has a little pain right now..
My two cents are-------- LightWave is and always will be a great tool..and I will continue to use it, for the length of my career, even if it is only a hobby right now. :( I think it comes down to a battle of intelect and pure personal preferece. As for me 100% LightWave. Peace out...:o

02-25-2003, 11:22 PM
hahhahahah slllluuuurrrppppp !!!
can i please have some caramel sauce for my strawberry ice cream... ??

02-26-2003, 12:56 AM
He's reeeeeeeally jonesing for some, based on his last few posts... :p

02-26-2003, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by pixelmonk
Lightwave works well with plugins like Maya. >:)

heretic! die infidel!!


02-27-2003, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by faulknermano
heretic! die infidel!!