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mikkelen
08-04-2016, 10:09 AM
No update
No news
Rumours of crunch mode since the begining of the year...

DrStrik9
08-04-2016, 11:56 AM
It is what it is (whatever that is), and it will happen when it happens (whenever that is).

MAUROCOR
08-04-2016, 12:16 PM
It is what it is (whatever that is), and it will happen when it happens (whenever that is).
:i_agree:

Snosrap
08-04-2016, 01:14 PM
You are not the only one asking that. :) It looks like they really want to button things up before the release. Some of the leaks from the beta testers is very promising.

cagey5
08-04-2016, 01:36 PM
what's crunch mode? Have I missed something?

OlaHaldor
08-04-2016, 01:40 PM
You are not the only one asking that. :) It looks like they really want to button things up before the release. Some of the leaks from the beta testers is very promising.

What leaks?!

jeric_synergy
08-04-2016, 01:43 PM
What leaks?!
HAH! Beat me to it.

mikkelen
08-04-2016, 02:36 PM
Ok, but this is no entertainment app. It is what it is, don't cut it. If you are a professional user, you'd like to know something... at least that the application is actively worked on.

squarewulf
08-04-2016, 02:45 PM
You are not the only one asking that. :) It looks like they really want to button things up before the release. Some of the leaks from the beta testers is very promising.

Leaks??!

kopperdrake
08-04-2016, 03:20 PM
It is actively being worked on, some of us saw a preview of bits of it a few weeks ago and were happy with what we saw. Other than that I guess we have to wait for the developers to say 'stop' and 'unleash the hounds' :D

50one
08-04-2016, 03:28 PM
It is actively being worked on, some of us saw a preview of bits of it a few weeks ago and were happy with what we saw. Other than that I guess we have to wait for the developers to say 'stop' and 'unleash the hounds' :D

Word say it will ship with Kray 3.0 and Half-Life 3 ;)

jeric_synergy
08-04-2016, 03:33 PM
Other than that I guess we have to wait for the developers to say 'stop' and 'unleash the hounds' :D
Too bad in the meantime all the foxes died or moved to other counties.

If only they'd left out a few crumbs now and then to keep the foxes around. :grumpy:


Word say it will ship with Kray 3.0 and Half-Life 3 ;)
LOL!

Prince Charming
08-04-2016, 03:43 PM
"leaks" Great marketing idea... Lets show a very small amount of people very little, and have them tell everyone that EVERYTHING is good. :chicken:
Can these leaks be shared with everyone? Is there a vid of these leaks?
That being said... There is a positive thing that should come from all this. I remember Jarno had said that if we wanted modeling functions in layout we would have to wait till 2017... So that is good news, right? ;D

jeric_synergy
08-04-2016, 04:47 PM
...we would have to wait till 2017... So that is good news, right? ;D
Oh snap! Sick burn, dood. :ohmy:

MichaelT
08-04-2016, 05:33 PM
I heard Half Life 3, and had to check this channel out :D

DrStrik9
08-04-2016, 07:30 PM
what's crunch mode? Have I missed something?

Do you feel crunchy? :+)

js33
08-04-2016, 09:04 PM
Compare LW3DG's approach to it's remaining customers versus the approach of The Foundry (Modo), Autodesk, SideFX and Maxon. These other companies have regular releases, usually annually, and they are mostly open and communicate with users whether its good news or bad. They keep their customers engaged in the product. The LW3DG on the other hand seems to do everything they can to drive away customers. If it weren't for LWs pricing compared to the other products they would have no customers left at this point. Hopefully this situation will turn around at some point.

hrgiger
08-04-2016, 09:57 PM
Compare LW3DG's approach to it's remaining customers versus the approach of The Foundry (Modo), Autodesk, SideFX and Maxon. These other companies have regular releases, usually annually, and they are mostly open and communicate with users whether its good news or bad. They keep their customers engaged in the product. The LW3DG on the other hand seems to do everything they can to drive away customers. If it weren't for LWs pricing compared to the other products they would have no customers left at this point. Hopefully this situation will turn around at some point.

Other companies put out regular releases to generate a regular stream of revenue to please their shareholders. And when you consider the Modo 9 series, that doesn't always work out well for the customer.

js33
08-04-2016, 10:51 PM
Yeah Modo 9 was like The Foundry's CORE but not as bad. They had stability issues due to their switching the interface programming to QT but look at 10 which is very robust after the transition.

I would prefer a yearly release and regular communication to this no communication and basically leaving users with very little idea of what's happening or when they can expect a release. Wouldn't you?

jeric_synergy
08-04-2016, 11:14 PM
There's plenty of things that LWG might want to play close to the vest, but that's a good example of one that doesn't matter: they could say, without giving anything away, that they were switching (OR NOT) to Qt as a way to blah blah effing blah.

Throw us a g.d. bone out here.

(BTW, js33, as a violinist, I gotta say that chinrest is all wrong. If I turn my head I can see 3 examples and none of them look like that. :) )

Prince Charming
08-04-2016, 11:24 PM
(BTW, js33, as a violinist, I gotta say that chinrest is all wrong. If I turn my head I can see 3 examples and none of them look like that. :) )
You obviously do not have a Core violin in your collection.

The thing is... no one wants them to release a Sh!t product that is not ready, but you dont do a marketing campaign like they did, and then go silent for 6+ months. It just looks bad. It does not instill confidence in the people you are trying to sell your product to. Thats just MO...

js33
08-04-2016, 11:36 PM
There's plenty of things that LWG might want to play close to the vest, but that's a good example of one that doesn't matter: they could say, without giving anything away, that they were switching (OR NOT) to Qt as a way to blah blah effing blah.

Throw us a g.d. bone out here.

(BTW, js33, as a violinist, I gotta say that chinrest is all wrong. If I turn my head I can see 3 examples and none of them look like that. :) )

Yeah you're right. I must have gotten a bad reference photo. I don't play violin like you so I didn't give much thought after modeling it. I think I lost the model in a hard drive crash years ago. It is after all a CORE violin. :D

The QT comment was in regards to Modo switching to it not LW. They had some growing pains but have a solid release in Modo 10.1 now.

We all are like drooling dogs waiting for a bone that may not come in time. :deal:

js33
08-04-2016, 11:39 PM
You obviously do not have a Core violin in your collection.

The thing is... no one wants them to release a Sh!t product that is not ready, but you dont do a marketing campaign like they did, and then go silent for 6+ months. It just looks bad. It does not instill confidence in the people you are trying to sell your product to. Thats just MO...

Yeah LW3DG either does not understand marketing, does not care about marketing or doesn't give a ****. None of those are desirable.

gjjackson
08-04-2016, 11:59 PM
Wasn't the last release just last August. So why all the complaints.

hrgiger
08-05-2016, 12:02 AM
Yeah Modo 9 was like The Foundry's CORE but not as bad. They had stability issues due to their switching the interface programming to QT but look at 10 which is very robust after the transition.

I would prefer a yearly release and regular communication to this no communication and basically leaving users with very little idea of what's happening or when they can expect a release. Wouldn't you?

Well yes who wouldn't but ultimately it doesn't matter. Once software is released, I look at it objectively and decide if I need it or even want it. But my decision to buy something or not doesn't depend on how long the release took, how great the marketing was leading up to the release, or if I've even heard from the developer in the time before the release. The only thing that ultimately matters is the release itself.

Prince Charming
08-05-2016, 12:23 AM
Well yes who wouldn't but ultimately it doesn't matter. Once software is released, I look at it objectively and decide if I need it or even want it. But my decision to buy something or not doesn't depend on how long the release took, how great the marketing was leading up to the release, or if I've even heard from the developer in the time before the release. The only thing that ultimately matters is the release itself.

So all these other compnaies should stop spending 100s of 1000s of $ on marketing cause it really does not do anything to sell the product?

Exclaim
08-05-2016, 12:28 AM
Well one could argue that kinda money is needed because their product is hard to sell.

erikals
08-05-2016, 12:32 AM
Wasn't the last release just last August. So why all the complaints.
?
LightWave 2015 was released November 24, 2014

last blog was 4+ months ago.

gjjackson
08-05-2016, 12:40 AM
2015.3 was released on August 2015

erikals
08-05-2016, 12:49 AM
2015.3 is what 2015 should have been, actually a bit less.

should i care if for example a 2015.4 was released on December 2015.
Nope.

anyway, this is derailing,
the question is why the LWG goes dark, skipping blog updates for 4+ months while skipping to comment on Siggraph.

i might be annoyed by it, but at least we're presumably getting a great 2017 release.

jeric_synergy
08-05-2016, 01:13 AM
Ahhhh yes, the old "Marketing doesn't affect MOI" stance. Always good for a laugh on Madison Avenue.

VermilionCat
08-05-2016, 01:16 AM
Beware LW3DG. Expectation is quite high now!

jeric_synergy
08-05-2016, 01:23 AM
The QT comment was in regards to Modo switching to it not LW. They had some growing pains but have a solid release in Modo 10.1 now.
Somewhere along the line (CORE?) there was talk about LW switching to Qt, that's what I was referring to, but not really the point: the point being that there's plenty of bones they could toss over the fence that would have zero impact on any 'big secrets', which I doubt exist anyway.

I used to ask "Why is this patently obvious and Good Thing not done to the UI?" and it was often "Our home-rolled UI kit does not allow that simple thing, so shut up." Switching to a widely used, stable, and successful bit of kit seem like a good move, and I think in general people would be happy to know about it. OR, if they aren't doing so and are rolling their own (again), that would help explain the pause we are experiencing. Either way, no cats are let out of the bag.

50one
08-05-2016, 01:25 AM
The problem is not the "Release the new version now, I want it now" thing

The problem is broken promise of "regular blog updates" and communication.

js33
08-05-2016, 01:34 AM
Somewhere along the line (CORE?) there was talk about LW switching to Qt, that's what I was referring to, but not really the point: the point being that there's plenty of bones they could toss over the fence that would have zero impact on any 'big secrets', which I doubt exist anyway.

I used to ask "Why is this patently obvious and Good Thing not done to the UI?" and it was often "Our home-rolled UI kit does not allow that simple thing, so shut up." Switching to a widely used, stable, and successful bit of kit seem like a good move, and I think in general people would be happy to know about it. OR, if they aren't doing so and are rolling their own (again), that would help explain the pause we are experiencing. Either way, no cats are let out of the bag.

Yeah I don't know if switching to QT for LW would make any difference other than they could say we are using the industry standard now.
I agree there are plenty of bones they could throw over the fence without revealing the entire meal.

- - - Updated - - -


The problem is not the "Release the new version now, I want it now" thing

The problem is broken promise of "regular blog updates" and communication.

Yeah it is sad that this happens every time they show signs of turning things around then they seize up on us like grandpa having another heart attack.

S0nny
08-05-2016, 02:33 AM
Guys seriously, besides the marketing 'strategy' and communication, nobody here is worried that they may have encountered some very big problems which delay or hold on the developement?
Because all of this it's not making the thing exciting nor interesting, but just very alarming.
Is this the usual situation for every announcement? I missed some previews releases, maybe it's the norm they do like this.

Niko3D
08-05-2016, 02:43 AM
the problem is not the "release the new version now, i want it now" thing

the problem is broken promise of "regular blog updates" and communication.

I agreee!!!!!!!!!!!!!

js33
08-05-2016, 02:53 AM
Guys seriously, besides the marketing 'strategy' and communication, nobody here is worried that they may have encountered some very big problems which delay or hold on the developement?
Because all of this it's not making the thing exciting nor interesting, but just very alarming.
Is this the usual situation for every announcement? I missed some previews releases, maybe it's the norm they do like this.

It is becoming the norm, wasn't always like this.

kolby
08-05-2016, 02:56 AM
Guys seriously, besides the marketing 'strategy' and communication, nobody here is worried that they may have encountered some very big problems which delay or hold on the developement?
Because all of this it's not making the thing exciting nor interesting, but just very alarming.
Is this the usual situation for every announcement? I missed some previews releases, maybe it's the norm they do like this.

No problem, they can jump here and tell to us: Sorry guys, we have some troubles, we need more time. But they not. Why ? We are not children, we do understand this.

kolby
08-05-2016, 03:02 AM
Funny thing is, that they offers same "Limited time offer" but without any limit, repeatedly for over half year or even more, which itself looks very unprofessional and after this long time it looks even ridiculously. And if someone make decision to buy LW, based on this promo, and go here, first thing he will see is thread like this, or worse "Is lightwave dead ?" which is just and only the result of their bad communication with us. That must realy convince potential new user to buy LW. They do not care ?

THIBAULT
08-05-2016, 03:11 AM
Funny thing is, that they offers same "Limited time offer" but without any limit, repeatedly for over half year or even more, which itself looks very unprofessional and after this long time it looks even ridiculously. And if someone make decision to buy LW, based on this promo, and go here, first thing he will see is thread like this, or worse "Is lightwave dead ?" which is just and only the result of their bad communication with us. That must realy convince potential new user to buy LW. They do not care ?

Totaly agree

50one
08-05-2016, 03:25 AM
No problem, they can jump here and tell to us: Sorry guys, we have some troubles, we need more time. But they not. Why ? We are not children, we do understand this.


Bingo! Why not just spend 2 minutes, 2 minutes Rob and log into the forums and say something like "Sorry guys, we can't really update the blog, it was bad decision. All is well we're on schedule" No one is pushing for early release, we just would like to know what the hell happened with the blog and why is there no comms since it was promised.

magiclight
08-05-2016, 03:33 AM
It was pretty clear in the last blog post that we could not expect blogs popping up left and right:

"Forgive the delay in new blog posts but as we move closer to release it requires some increased focus on development, marketing, sales, and related details but finally we have a new blog post for you."

"Switching to a widely used, stable, and successful bit of kit seem like a good move", you don't "switch" UI, it requires a full rewrite of the large parts of the code,development and testing requires huge amount of work, and if they can't get that to work with the old plugins all hell will break loose because of that, you can't get a new UI, a new renderer, fast geometry engine, modeler/layout merge all at one time, I am pretty sure the developer resources are a bit limited these days and they are all working as fast as they can.

"No problem, they can jump here and tell to us: Sorry guys, we have some troubles, we need more time. But they not. Why ? We are not children, we do understand this.", yes you are children (not aimed at any specific person), you spend hours complaining about no blogs and no news, when it's finished they will release it, I am pretty sure of that, and they don't need "more" time, how could they, they have never given a deadline for it!

Leave them alone and let them do their work.

kadri
08-05-2016, 03:47 AM
...

Leave them alone and let them do their work.

On another forum they had a contest and an open Beta and they even got to Sighraph but they were always on the forums too.
So no it is actually very easy to write here. They just don't want it.

But seriously do we need to talk this in threads after threads? It is like deja vue (or jamais vu ?)...

I try to show Lightwave in a good light so much i can, but i begun to complain on another forum about this lack of communication too.
Not good.

js33
08-05-2016, 04:58 AM
OK I guess someone needs to start a thread addressing Rob Powers directly and ask him to address us gnarly group of rambunctious Wavers before we start messing up this hotel.

djwaterman
08-05-2016, 05:34 AM
Oh please no, not yet another pointless unproductive thread asking all the same questions from the same people. We really don't need another thread.

Prince Charming
08-05-2016, 05:38 AM
Oh please no, not yet another pointless unproductive thread asking all the same questions from the same people. We really don't need another thread.
I am sure this thread was started by a person with legitimate concerns. These type of threads could easily be prevented, but not with posts from people like you... or I.:hey:

kolby
08-05-2016, 05:42 AM
yes you are children (not aimed at any specific person), you spend hours complaining about no blogs and no news, when it's finished they will release it, I am pretty sure of that, and they don't need "more" time, how could they, they have never given a deadline for it!

Believe me, I am not child. I'm 42 years old and I only want to plan my work and make money for my family. I got some job and I am sure I can not render it with current renderer for reasonable price because it is very slow in this case. Huge industrial interior scene, many dynamic lights, deforming objects, 6000 frames in FullHD. So I forward this job to some guy with Max and Corona and he will render it for me on same renderfarm but for a price acceptable for my client. And due to all that deformation and different shading system I will pay him $3000 for his work because he must doing it from scratch. That is ok, that is also business because my client will get what he want for good price and in future give me another job. But if they release unexpectedly e.g. next week and new renderer will be much faster and usable than current one, then I loose that money, because I will be able to do it myself eventually.

That is reason why I want to be informed. If I know that they want release next week or two, I can wait, check new renderer, upgrade, do the work and get $3000.
If I know there will be nothing in month or two, ok, then I know it is better to pass this job immediately.

mikkelen
08-05-2016, 05:50 AM
The problem is not the "Release the new version now, I want it now" thing

The problem is broken promise of "regular blog updates" and communication.

Correct! And this is EXTREMELY unprofessional.

bazsa73
08-05-2016, 07:13 AM
A blog update could be one snapshot when Matt pushes the cursor to a hardly visible menu on a screen and that would give folks something to gnaw for a week.

raymondtrace
08-05-2016, 07:14 AM
...If I know that they want release next week or two, I can wait, check new renderer, upgrade, do the work and get $3000...

Do I need to be the one to point out the complete lunacy in speculating or trusting newly released software on a critical project?


...Correct! And this is EXTREMELY unprofessional...

NewTek works on a very basic business model. They produce a product. The customer decides if they want to buy that product. Except for one hiccup that shook some people to their core, this has not changed in the past 25+ years.

You have not paid NewTek for a blog or any news communication. You bought their most recent version of their software.

It is 2016. If you're just now starting to rant about a lack of news in LW development, you're not really professional.

Chris S. (Fez)
08-05-2016, 07:30 AM
I expect the LW Group to be more engaged after the release of 2017. It helps to have something to market besides the same endless "Limited Time" promotion...

kolby
08-05-2016, 07:44 AM
Do I need to be the one to point out the complete lunacy in speculating or trusting newly released software on a critical project?

It is not any critical project. You can do it in current lightwave easily, except rendering because it is too slow and expensive on render farm. And why not to use newly released software, If you check it before and it is stable and usable ? The point is, if you have information in right time, you can make extra money.

raymondtrace
08-05-2016, 08:14 AM
...except rendering because it is too slow...

I'm just noticing you show LW10.1 in your signature. Why are we even discussing the next version of LW if you cannot be bothered to support development by purchasing the current version? Why don't you update from LW10 and see if the rendering time improves?

Do you really need an explanation of why the LW development team works on limited resources and does not have the time to post blogs? It is because of you! Give them some money more than once every 5 years and you might get what you want.

50one
08-05-2016, 08:18 AM
^ LOL. I'm sure that $300 will really help them.

Besides, paying for a promise? C'mon, Given how many bugs are there that affect me I'm still angry that I have upgraded to 2015.3...

art
08-05-2016, 08:28 AM
I don't think it's only lack of time or resources. After all they have some activity on FB and send out occasional emails. I think they honestly wanted to keep the blog alive but something must have changed along the way. I recall several forum posts mentioning "this and that will be covered in future blogs" but I don't see those post (from Lino?) anymore. Lino's 2016 posts seem to be gone (forum server problems?). I don't think it's just lack of time. If time was an issue there is always lunch time and after hours. I'd sacrifice 5 minutes of my free time every day for a week if it were up to me. At this time all we can do it wait, I guess.

raymondtrace
08-05-2016, 08:39 AM
^ LOL. I'm sure that $300 will really help them...

It would indeed help from Kolby and everyone else. How many complainers in this discussion are also part time customers expecting full time developers?

Unlike Adobe or Autodesk, NewTek does not require its customers to pay for a promise. But the complainers here have very little moral ground to stand on if they have been lazy customers for 5 years. That's why they are not considered for beta testing and feel left in the dark.

raymondtrace
08-05-2016, 08:51 AM
I don't think it's only lack of time or resources. After all they have some activity on FB and send out occasional emails.

Facebook marketing does not involve development previews like the blog. It is very rare for developers to discuss what they are working on. When you do see such discussion, it is because development and marketing is in a late stage.

kolby
08-05-2016, 11:23 AM
I'm just noticing you show LW10.1 in your signature. Why are we even discussing the next version of LW if you cannot be bothered to support development by purchasing the current version? Why don't you update from LW10 and see if the rendering time improves?

You remind me to update my signature. Currently I have even different machine. Thank you ! I will update my signature very soon !


Do you really need an explanation of why the LW development team works on limited resources and does not have the time to post blogs? It is because of you! Give them some money more than once every 5 years and you might get what you want.

In 2003 NT offered LW bundled with Vue. I wanted to give them money so I ordered it. After 4 months I got a message from local reseller that it is unavailable and they never got a single copy. I cancelled my order. I gave them money for Core and I did not get what I wanted. Are you sure that it is because of me ?

Prince Charming
08-05-2016, 11:51 AM
Or like with version 9 when I prepurchased a poduct that didn't get released until almost a year later than the date advertised when it was presold.
The thing is... there are people who are willing to look past unprofessional dealings with this company for some crazy reason and there are people who won't. I would imagine that the unprofessional way they have handeled themselves many times over the years is one of the reasons their market share is steadily decreasing.

raymondtrace
08-05-2016, 12:10 PM
...Are you sure that it is because of me ?

It is because of all of us. I started on LW on Amiga and upgraded frequently. I just upgraded to 2015 from 7.5 after a long break from 3D. NewTek cannot be expected to devote resources into new releases if its "regular" customers are failing to upgrade. This is what drove Adobe to subscriptions.

I'm not suggesting we need to blindly pay for a product before it is offered. We just don't have grounds for complaint about secretive development if we haven't been part of the process.

- - - Updated - - -


Or like with version 9 when I prepurchased a poduct that didn't get released until almost a year later than the date advertised when it was presold.

So NewTek learned to stop premature announcements of release dates. Why are people asking for them now?

Nutty.

Prince Charming
08-05-2016, 12:33 PM
I not asking for that... I can't speak for others. I want them to take their time and produce a quality product. All I am saying is that marketing is supposed to gain customers not lose them.

hrgiger
08-05-2016, 12:37 PM
So all these other compnaies should stop spending 100s of 1000s of $ on marketing cause it really does not do anything to sell the product?

Well one, I was speaking of myself as I don't need any advertisements or marketing directed towards me as I am a consumer in the 3D industry and as such I seek out products which serve my needs, all a company has to do for me is show me the final product. I'm not a guppy attraced by the pretty colors of a advert.

And no, you're misreading what I'm saying about advertising. Companies need to advertise to primarily expand their consumer market, and not as much advertise to people who already use their product and will base most of their decision on how much the product has improved from a version they already know to the new product.

Prince Charming
08-05-2016, 12:37 PM
Also... they did not learn about premature announcements. They learned about pre mature selling of product.

Prince Charming
08-05-2016, 12:44 PM
There is a very small part of the population that you and I are in that do not care about marketing... but about 95% of the population can't make a decision without it. I do get your point... but imo nt need not worry about the people who are currently using lw. The need to worry about getting back the thousands of customers they lost... and new ones.

erikals
08-05-2016, 01:07 PM
anyway, meanwhile, try to check out some other apps.

either 3d apps or other.

i might jump to another forum, if LWG won't communicate, why should i.

cove
08-05-2016, 01:10 PM
A lot of us are pretty peeved at the moment and the main reason is because of this and i quote-----
"the problem is broken promise of "regular blog updates" and communication".
Not even the Siggraph event/period produced any response from Rob.
There has to be good reasons for this situation.
Maybe they tried to squeeze into "Next' a few more new features so it would have more features than
we already know about but had unforeseen issues and have had to delay the release date.
Dealing with advertising and marketing can also have its sudden and inforeseen issues.
Could be that all Rob has done is simple closed the door on the forum
[With no ill intent] so he does not have to deal with the clammer going on here and can concentrate on
getting LW "NEXT" to us as soon as possible. Hopefully sooner than later.

I like to think that Rob will suddenly make a post and say
"Sorry for the lack of info lads here is some more free software
[Remember free Chronasculpt etc] to keep you occupied while
we get on with things. Just wishfull thinking.

erikals
08-05-2016, 01:55 PM
Maybe they tried to squeeze into "Next' a few more new features so it would have more features than
we already know about but had unforeseen issues and have had to delay the release date.
when/if that happens, all they have to do is to go back a few builds, so no, i don't buy that one.


Could be that all Rob has done is simple closed the door on the forum
and still skipped blog updates + Siggraph? not likely.

but maybe it's a good thing, we will learn not to trust anything that has to do with marketing dates / communication, and thereby care less.

this will in return make us forum posters less annoying.

Surrealist.
08-05-2016, 02:27 PM
Newtek is doing marketing. They don't have a new product to market yet. So they are marketing, constantly, the LightWave that is here now.

Keeping users informed about updates to future products, can be confused as marketing. Or it can tie into marketing efforts. But the two are not directly related. In fact mixing the two would be deadly.

What we are talking about here is public relations which can feed marketing. But what is missing here is a communication with the current and potential user base as to what is coming next for LightWave.

But honestly most companies are very guarded about specifics until there is a product to actually market. I can not think of any company who lays out what they are working on in more detail than the Blender foundation. Probably Epic comes in second. But I can not think of another company that does as much as what is being asked for here.

The blog was a great idea. But not even Autodesk has that. You have to be on a Beta to get those kind of updates.

A little more communication with the forums would be helpful. Complete silence is not a good idea. But it has nothing to do with marketing until there is a product to market.

Prince Charming
08-05-2016, 02:36 PM
Newtek is doing marketing. They don't have a new product to market yet. So they are marketing, constantly, the LightWave that is here now.

Keeping users informed about updates to future products, can be confused as marketing. Or it can tie into marketing efforts. But the two are not directly related. In fact mixing the two would be deadly.

What we are talking about here is public relations which can feed marketing. But what is missing here is a communication with the current and potential user base as to what is coming next for LightWave.

But honestly most companies are very guarded about specifics until there is a product to actually market. I can not think of any company who lays out what they are working on in more detail than the Blender foundation. Probably Epic comes in second. But I can not think of another company that does as much as what is being asked for here.

The blog was a great idea. But not even Autodesk has that. You have to be on a Beta to get those kind of updates.

A little more communication with the forums would be helpful. Complete silence is not a good idea. But it has nothing to do with marketing until there is a product to market.

I can agree with that for the most part... but then the blog was just yet another premature blunder. Very similar to past premature blunders.

OnlineRender
08-05-2016, 03:06 PM
everybody chill and have a render ...
smashing
http://i.imgur.com/Ejq7pIB.png

Dan Ritchie
08-05-2016, 03:23 PM
It is actively being worked on, some of us saw a preview of bits of it a few weeks ago and were happy with what we saw. Other than that I guess we have to wait for the developers to say 'stop' and 'unleash the hounds' :D

Can we use Krakens? It always works better with Krakens.

Chris S. (Fez)
08-05-2016, 03:27 PM
Can't wait to take Next for a spin.

I think the only issue with the Blog is it that it pseudo-established expectations for consistent communication. If you are traveling and call your wife or whatever every night before bed and then suddenly stop calling for a week without a word of explanation...I guarantee there is going to be drama. That's what we got here: drama.

prometheus
08-05-2016, 03:36 PM
anyway, meanwhile, try to check out some other apps.

either 3d apps or other.

i might jump to another forum, if LWG won't communicate, why should i.

Same here, since these forums ..(it may be subjectivly) seem to have become more about discussions on things not really related to lightwave, or just a continuous flow about what is happening or what is next, or is lw dead etc..all that starts to feel quite depressive, and canīt be good for creativity.
I still have to enter the blender forums, but I reckon I will soon, I would have liked to excel more with the 2015 new features, but I am not comfortably with all the crashes I have with it, so I touch it rarely now..at least not 2015 ..which is a bit sad since the new bullet features and some other stuff was interesting, I rather fire up 11.6.3 to avoid those crashes.

So I reckon I currently go for discovering blender even some more, I am quite in love with the skin modifier and how One can work with that, thatīs whatīs going on here anyway:hey:
I need to free some hard drive space and sort somethings, would like to fire up the latest houdini apprentice version as well.

Michael

Surrealist.
08-05-2016, 03:50 PM
I can agree with that for the most part... but then the blog was just yet another premature blunder. Very similar to past premature blunders.

Nah. I would never put something that was actually a good thing in to such a negative context. In fact most of the negativity leveled at the developers have been in the context of something good and positive somehow turned into negatives.

What they did was positive and fairly above and beyond.

But it was not well received, by a small vocal few (which is always the case), even when it was informative, positive and lifted the spirits around here for a while.

That they stopped doing it is more to do with the lack of interest in dealing with the vocal few who troll with no other interest than to cause turbulence.

If it was a blunder, the users are equally to blame. And I point the finger at moderation for not being simply willing to warn and/or ban people.

It gets so out of hand around here that when there was a recent posting for a legit job for LWvers at CBS it was quickly turned into "this is a scam".

The same people seem to show up on all the threads with this kind of negatively and it is no wonder that blog posts turn nasty even when they are positive.

No nope. Sorry to disagree. Not a blunder. Not premature. Was good while it lasted.

Prince Charming
08-05-2016, 04:06 PM
Nah. I would never put something that was actually a good thing in to such a negative context. In fact most of the negativity leveled at the developers have been in the context of something good and positive somehow turned into negatives.

What they did was positive and fairly above and beyond.

But it was not well received, by a small vocal few (which is always the case), even when it was informative, positive and lifted the spirits around here for a while.

That they stopped doing it is more to do with the lack of interest in dealing with the vocal few who troll with no other interest than to cause turbulence.

If it was a blunder, the users are equally to blame. And I point the finger at moderation for not being simply willing to warn and/or ban people.

It gets so out of hand around here that when there was a recent posting for a legit job for LWvers at CBS it was quickly turned into "this is a scam".

The same people seem to show up on all the threads with this kind of negatively and it is no wonder that blog posts turn nasty even when they are positive.

No nope. Sorry to disagree. Not a blunder. Not premature. Was good while it lasted.

LMFAO... Maybe I dont agree with you at all. I am of the belief that when a company loses 85% of their customers over a period of 10 years its something that the company is doing wrong. But you can live in fantasy land if you please.

They can ban people if the want, but I dont see how that is going to be good for them at this point. Sounds like you will be happy when its just you and 8 other people in here patting each other and NT on the back. hahah...

Chris S. (Fez)
08-05-2016, 04:08 PM
I personally find it difficult to defend going so suddenly and absolutely silent...maybe if their offices were based on Alderaan.

js33
08-05-2016, 04:11 PM
Maybe the new programmers they grabbed off the street have to pour over old Siggraph research papers and it takes awhile to translate them into their native Indian language.

jeric_synergy
08-05-2016, 05:11 PM
I'm blaming Amurrell for not starting up the new Speed Modeling Challenge, which he won, and is denying us all something ELSE to obsess over. ANYTHING, please!!!

;)

jasonwestmas
08-05-2016, 05:41 PM
"leaks" Great marketing idea... Lets show a very small amount of people very little, and have them tell everyone that EVERYTHING is good. :chicken:
Can these leaks be shared with everyone? Is there a vid of these leaks?
That being said... There is a positive thing that should come from all this. I remember Jarno had said that if we wanted modeling functions in layout we would have to wait till 2017... So that is good news, right? ;D

your comments appeal to my truthful impatient side. :P

- - - Updated - - -


LMFAO... Maybe I dont agree with you at all. I am of the belief that when a company loses 85% of their customers over a period of 10 years its something that the company is doing wrong. But you can live in fantasy land if you please.

They can ban people if the want, but I dont see how that is going to be good for them at this point. Sounds like you will be happy when its just you and 8 other people in here patting each other and NT on the back. hahah...

No, that's setup tab. It's gone now. . . for the most part. I think you would have been banned a few years ago, but today. . .who knows.

wesleycorgi
08-05-2016, 06:01 PM
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?150949-2-ads-with-Lightwave-Cows-and-Octopus&p=1477664&viewfull=1#post1477664


I wanted to respond to let everyone know that things are going very well but we are all heads down working hard and focusing on making the new features and workflows as solid as possible and squashing bugs for the next release. We are not horribly far away but we want to take the time needed to make the release as strong as possible considering the significant architectural foundational work that will be part of the release .

Also, I'm sure that many of you have seen that the new Star Trek show is using LightWave and much of that is due to their confidence in the future release and I'm confident that many more shows will follow their lead.

We are working on an update blog post in the near future so keep an eye out for that.

Prince Charming
08-05-2016, 06:04 PM
your comments appeal to my truthful impatient side. :P

- - - Updated - - -


No, that's setup tab. It's gone now. . . for the most part. I think you would have been banned a few years ago, but today. . .who knows.
Funny thing is, I could care less when they release it. I would rather wait till 2018 and get an even more feature rich app. 2015.3 + dp works wonders for me. If they break too much without having replacements the new version very well could be useless to me, and I may be making tutorial in old version that are not possible in new version ;). I dont think they want that?

I was banned a few years ago... And intend to be banned shortly again... Cause frankly, this is a waste of life, but since I had to join to reply to comments made about me I will just have some fun till SbobaBowie pulls the plug.

But the fact that people can say that the very quickly dwindling lw user base is of no fault of NT, and that the only problem LW has is a few bad apples on a forum... LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! I find pretty fing delusional. I think my 85% in 10 years is probably pretty accurate. All you have to do is look at all aspects of the community compared to 10 years ago to get a good idea.
Gallery, training, jobs, forum activity, ect.

Surrealist.
08-05-2016, 06:20 PM
I was banned a few years ago... And intend to be banned shortly again... Cause frankly, this is a waste of life, but since I had to join to reply to comments made about me I will just have some fun till SbobaBowie pulls the plug.



Just as I suspected. Troll. Moving on.

Prince Charming
08-05-2016, 06:26 PM
Just as I suspected. Troll. Moving on.

But it doesn't change the fact that your last comment is delusional. Yeah, its a few bad apples in a forum that caused NT to lose most of its customers.
If you click your heels together and say "there is no place like home" all the lost customers will come running back ;)

NeonZ
08-05-2016, 06:30 PM
Sorry, got to this thread a bit late. I think they're almost finished with the iPhone port of LightWave. Apple keeps releasing updates to iOS and it throws some of the internals off within the iLightWave render engine. Only time will tell!

OnlineRender
08-05-2016, 06:42 PM
Sorry, got to this thread a bit late. I think they're almost finished with the iPhone port of LightWave. Apple keeps releasing updates to iOS and it throws some of the internals off within the iLightWave render engine. Only time will tell!

Happy 6th post!

jasonwestmas
08-05-2016, 06:49 PM
Funny thing is, I could care less when they release it. I would rather wait till 2018 and get an even more feature rich app. 2015.3 + dp works wonders for me. If they break too much without having replacements the new version very well could be useless to me, and I may be making tutorial in old version that are not possible in new version ;). I dont think they want that?

I was banned a few years ago... And intend to be banned shortly again... Cause frankly, this is a waste of life, but since I had to join to reply to comments made about me I will just have some fun till SbobaBowie pulls the plug.

But the fact that people can say that the very quickly dwindling lw user base is of no fault of NT, and that the only problem LW has is a few bad apples on a forum... LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! I find pretty fing delusional. I think my 85% in 10 years is probably pretty accurate. All you have to do is look at all aspects of the community compared to 10 years ago to get a good idea.
Gallery, training, jobs, forum activity, ect.

Sounds familiar. This company clearly is not for everybody. And in your opinion it is 85% of people. ;) It certainly feels that way. I never did the math.

You re-joined to protect your reputation? I wouldn't worry too much about a forum. ;)

Prince Charming
08-05-2016, 07:23 PM
Sounds familiar. This company clearly is not for everybody. And in your opinion it is 85% of people. ;) It certainly feels that way. I never did the math.

You re-joined to protect your reputation? I wouldn't worry too much about a forum. ;)


I dont know the real numbers, but it is declining very quickly... cause of all those bad forum members.
I rejoined cause my name was brought up in a way that I did not like, in a place that I did not post, by a person that I already explained the situation to.
Do I seem like I am worried about my "reputation" ;). I think its should be clear by now that I could care less what people think. I will be me... and continue to produce stuff in LW that no one has ever done before :2guns:
One of the biggest reasons I joined is cause I like getting over on the bobabowie.

jasonwestmas
08-05-2016, 07:28 PM
I miss the Bowie. Never see him anymore. :(

gamedesign1
08-05-2016, 07:46 PM
The problem is not the "Release the new version now, I want it now" thing

The problem is broken promise of "regular blog updates" and communication.

I agree. Just because people get frustrated about the lack of communication, does not mean they want an unfinished product released.

BokadCastle
08-05-2016, 08:03 PM
I miss the Bowie. Never see him anymore. :(

He just wasn't suited to the job.
So I went 'round his place and shot him.

NeonZ
08-05-2016, 08:26 PM
Happy 6th post!

Yep, gotta love the forums not being backed up for three months! Lost all my recent activity, but still have a link to my main thread that's no longer there. I'll cherish that link for a long time!

Surrealist.
08-05-2016, 08:45 PM
But it doesn't change the fact that your last comment is delusional. Yeah, its a few bad apples in a forum that caused NT to lose most of its customers.
If you click your heels together and say "there is no place like home" all the lost customers will come running back ;)

Well like I said you are a troll. Now in the next post you are expecting me to take the bait?

What I do find interesting and telling, is that you actually are basically saying that I have granted people like you much much more power than you actually have. It could not have been further from my intent. In fact I could never have dreamed up such a scenario that bad apples such as yourself would have enough pull to drag down a company. Wow. What a stretch. Yet to you it just seemed so easy to make a connection. Like it came naturally to you.

lol... dude, that is delusional. Delusions of grandeur is what it is clinically called.

and lol here is the funny part. You keep trumpeting it. And you made it up.... that is sick.

kadri
08-05-2016, 08:59 PM
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?150949-2-ads-with-Lightwave-Cows-and-Octopus&p=1477664&viewfull=1#post1477664

Eee...guys have you seen this actually?

jasonwestmas
08-05-2016, 09:23 PM
Eee...guys have you seen this actually?

Sounds a lot like his last post.

Prince Charming
08-05-2016, 09:26 PM
Well like I said you are a troll. Now in the next post you are expecting me to take the bait?

What I do find interesting and telling, is that you actually are basically saying that I have granted people like you much much more power than you actually have. It could not have been further from my intent. In fact I could never have dreamed up such a scenario that bad apples such as yourself would have enough pull to drag down a company. Wow. What a stretch. Yet to you it just seemed so easy to make a connection. Like it came naturally to you.

lol... dude, that is delusional. Delusions of grandeur is what it is clinically called.

and lol here is the funny part. You keep trumpeting it. And you made it up.... that is sick.


I dont mind if you call me a troll, but at least explain your weird logic so we can all understand where you are coming from. Your stance is there is only a few people on the forum who complain about development and marketing, yet thousands of people have already left???????????????????????? Please explain???????????????????????????????????? Did it ever occur to you that those people who are complaining are just those who havent left yet, but are getting ready to? All I am saying is that your opinion of LWs development in that post you made does not match the reality of current dwindling user base. A LOT of people must have felt much differently than you.

SBowie
08-05-2016, 09:45 PM
Fwiw, I can count the number of members I've banned in the last 5 years on the fingers of one hand, which should be pretty obvious by the complete drivel a few regularly post here more or less unfettered. I generally only involve myself when people are being ignorant to other members (though I reserve the right to occasionally shift myself to deal with a completely tiresome, immature, and ill mannered individual just because...)

I return you now to your previous channel. :)

jasonwestmas
08-05-2016, 09:53 PM
But I think 6 years ago you were in your prime, ahh the good old days. ;) It's been so calm since then. Sorry, couldn't resist the nostolgia Steve.

BokadCastle
08-05-2016, 10:00 PM
Fwiw, I can count the number of members I've banned in the last 5 years on the fingers of one hand, which should be pretty obvious by the complete drivel a few regularly post here more or less unfettered. I generally only involve myself when people are being ignorant to other members (though I reserve the right to occasionally shift myself to deal with a completely tiresome, immature, and ill mannered individual just because...)

I return you now to your previous channel. :)

the walking dead.

prometheus
08-05-2016, 10:35 PM
A bit sad that these forums gets fueled with speculations here and there, but considering current communication level sent out by the Lightwave group, results like this seem to be unavoidable.
I got a sense of it to be very much like a virus, it spreads..or cancer, and the cure in my opinion should be some progress statements from the lightwave group, itīs like..I believe this, I think this...no this will happen etc, speculation upon speculation growing on eachother, and it will only carry on getting worse...yes I say worse, because there is no rule to set this on direction to a good output...If I should suggest something, the only thing to stop the speculation after speculation hitting one eachother in a seemingly particle hardon collider with spin here and there etc, you would need information from the proper source of mass, namely the lightwave group.

I wonder if the lightwave groups way of communicating and itīs interference as such in these forums .. is similar to the higgs boson particle? we try to find it..it must be there but we donīt know,(we didnīt)...at least the case scenario may be similar..once the lw group makes an interference communication....it will gain mass and the rest of us will gather around that I suspect, and we will have something of gravity and mass to really discuss about.

So lightwave group..be the center of gravity and make some impact, communicate..and above all, do it well and unleash the power...



https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/eNr-EIj79ad612ofE-qAWgl6OzjGBtNEyrj49LCx2tVoALZEOqt1Uya-lGEE961Hb9VZiI0JIQ=w1920-h1080-no


PROMETHEUS JUMPGATE TO LIGHTWAVE...
http://michaeli65.wix.com/prometheus

Surrealist.
08-05-2016, 10:51 PM
I dont mind if you call me a troll, but at least explain your weird logic so we can all understand where you are coming from. Your stance is there is only a few people on the forum who complain about development and marketing, yet thousands of people have already left???????????????????????? Please explain???????????????????????????????????? Did it ever occur to you that those people who are complaining are just those who havent left yet, but are getting ready to? All I am saying is that your opinion of LWs development in that post you made does not match the reality of current dwindling user base. A LOT of people must have felt much differently than you.

You having fun? Apparently you don't need my contribution. You are doing fine playing both sides quite well. You make up something that I said, argue against it then ask me what I think about it. And when I say I never said it, you come up with something else I never said and ask me to explain that. I think you'd be better off explaining it yourself since it was your idea in the first place.

At any rate continue to enjoy your sick form of self-entertainment or gratification or whatever you call it while you still have a membership under this current profile.

js33
08-05-2016, 11:10 PM
A bit sad that these forums gets fueled with speculations here and there, but considering current communication level sent out by the Lightwave group, results like this seem to be unavoidable.
I got a sense of it to be very much like a virus, it spreads..or cancer, and the cure in my opinion should be some progress statements from the lightwave group, itīs like..I believe this, I think this...no this will happen etc, speculation upon speculation growing on eachother, and it will only carry on getting worse...yes I say worse, because there is no rule to set this on direction to a good output...If I should suggest something, the only thing to stop the speculation after speculation hitting one eachother in a seemingly particle hardon collider with spin here and there etc, you would need information from the proper source of mass, namely the lightwave group.

I wonder if the lightwave groups way of communicating and itīs interference as such in these forums .. is similar to the higgs boson particle? we try to find it..it must be there but we donīt know,(we didnīt)...at least the case scenario may be similar..once the lw group makes an interference communication....it will gain mass and the rest of us will gather around that I suspect, and we will have something of gravity and mass to really discuss about.

So lightwave group..be the center of gravity and make some impact, communicate..and above all, do it well and unleash the power...



https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/eNr-EIj79ad612ofE-qAWgl6OzjGBtNEyrj49LCx2tVoALZEOqt1Uya-lGEE961Hb9VZiI0JIQ=w1920-h1080-no



I like that pic. Is it done in LW?

The forums are like groundhog day and the only solution is more cowbell.

Even the new post Rob made sounds like the last post he made a couple months ago.

This is what being in prison must feel like.

Good thing I am also into Modo and Maya to keep things interesting.

prometheus
08-05-2016, 11:17 PM
I like that pic. Is it done in LW?

The forums are like groundhog day and the only solution is more cowbell.

Even the new post Rob made sounds like the last post he made a couple months ago.

This is what being in prison must feel like.

Good thing I am also into Modo and Maya to keep things interesting.

yes I did it with the lightwave 11 cycle, but also a bit of turbulence distortion in after effects, I think some minor color and glow effect to in there, but otherwise..
hypervoxels sprites on 3 millions of particles..tiny tiny sprites
a particle field driven by fractal textures in the velocity channel, so it is animated to the point of liking.

Surrealist.
08-05-2016, 11:22 PM
I like that pic. Is it done in LW?

The forums are like groundhog day and the only solution is more cowbell.

Even the new post Rob made sounds like the last post he made a couple months ago.

This is what being in prison must feel like.

Good thing I am also into Modo and Maya to keep things interesting.

lol... yeah. I left LightWave behind while some people around here were still in their diapers. Just saying. It is still in my arsenal, but just saying....

But if there is anything that seems odd to me. Why would you wait for the actions of the developers make a decision for you? Isn't that kind of a cop out?

For certain things that you need to do, the tools, or lack of them, I should say, are enough to make that decision. Aren't they? If you are not using at least 3 or three other apps along side of LightWave I think you are probably in the minority. Even some people who seemed to hold out as long as they could are now finally using Blender. Ouch! he he he .

But as to Rob's comment. That makes sense. At least he came to chime in. Same as before because they are doing same as before. Good news is they at least have the funds to keep going.

js33
08-05-2016, 11:22 PM
Nice. Do you have an animated version posted?

prometheus
08-05-2016, 11:35 PM
Nice. Do you have an animated version posted?

No...not posted, I did some minor tests rendered to my harddive, but I didnīt like the motion that much so ..that is still something I may look in to later, but I would really like the particle handling to be a bit more efficient than it is now, they at least removed the 1 million particle render limit..and with the 64 bit version I could get to 3 millions without it being too slow to simulate or render, but going up to 6 or 8 millions it starts to become very slow and not enjoyable, and that is only with particles driven by fractal textures in the particle emitters velocity tab..which is much much faster than trying to push the particles with a directional force and use fractal textures in the wind force velocity channels instead..that would be uberslow or freezing the system, there is differences in the way how particles move in the velocity vectors when using them directly in the particle emitter..wich gives a more non dynamic motion compared to wind force with fractal textures wich yields a more dynamic motion..but it is way slower as said.

I could post some preview open gl shots on how the particles moves..but not today.

There was a change in the display of particles for lightwave 2015 compared to 11.6, in 2015 we now have a much smaller openGL display of the particles, some people seem to not like it ..because they are harder to spot, I would suggest to add some size to them in the emitter panel, or add hypervoxels and use show size there to help with that, but it should really be an option to use either small particle tics or larger.

I however prefer the smaller more accurate to pixel size particles, why? ....well it gives me a better feedback on how particle fields like this will look like when I finally add hv sprites, but I get that in the opengl view, previously it was just a big mess of particle points which couldnīt give me a proper feedback on the whole particle density to match my fine tuned sprites.

Bedtime now in stockholm...but it is actually early morning, my day/night schedule is whacked up and the sun is coming up, so I have to get to the tomb before my skin burns.

Prince Charming
08-05-2016, 11:46 PM
I would never put something that was actually a good thing in to such a negative context. In fact most of the negativity leveled at the developers have been in the context of something good and positive somehow turned into negatives.

What they did was positive and fairly above and beyond.

But it was not well received, by a small vocal few (which is always the case), even when it was informative, positive and lifted the spirits around here for a while.

That they stopped doing it is more to do with the lack of interest in dealing with the vocal few who troll with no other interest than to cause turbulence.


What I am suggesting is that YOU are part of the small vocal few, and want to condemn everyone else for having an opposing view of the situation. I personally think the blog was a joke, and seeing how things ended up now... I think it hurt them much more than it helped them. The way I see it... they drew a lot of attention to themselves so that everyone could watch them flop on their face AGAIN. Did you see how the foundries release was handled, or c4d, or Houdini. Do you not notice a big difference in the professional non gimmicky way that those companies handle things compared to NT. I sure do... WHY NO SIGRAPH? They had that very successful blog to present and wow people with... LMFAO!!!!!!!!!

What makes you right, and those who disagree with you trolls? Cause I think you are wrong... WAY wrong if you think that blog was successful in anyway (is that what you are saying?), and the reason I am pointing out the mass exodus of people is just to show you that their are A LOT more people who dont see the situation as you do.

Also for you to say its a small vocal few is pretty funny... Have you seen the forum lately? Are we seeing the same thing. From what I can see it seems like I suggested... YOU ARE THE SMALL VOCAL FEW telling others how they should perceive the situation or they are some how bad or a "troll" if they dont agree with you. In fact... you may be one of the only people I have talked to that actually think the blog was a success.

Also, in one post you say they cant market something if they dont have anything to market, and then you claim that the blog was a success. How the hell does that work? If they had something to market 6 months ago shouldn't they still have that product to market now? They showed NOTHING in that blog, and it WAS a premature blunder to get as many people as they could to upgrade to 2015... and the fact that 6 months has past and still no release should be enough to tell you it was a premature blunder... very similar to many premature blunders of the past.

js33
08-05-2016, 11:48 PM
No...not posted, I did some minor tests rendered to my harddive, but I didnīt like the motion that much so ..that is still something I may look in to later, but I would really like the particle handling to be a bit more efficient than it is now, they at least removed the 1 million particle render limit..and with the 64 bit version I could get to 3 millions without it being too slow to simulate or render, but going up to 6 or 8 millions it starts to become very slow and not enjoyable, and that is only with particles driven by fractal textures in the particle emitters velocity tab..which is much much faster than trying to push the particles with a directional force and use fractal textures in the wind force velocity channels instead..that would be uberslow or freezing the system, there is differences in the way how particles move in the velocity vectors when using them directly in the particle emitter..wich gives a more non dynamic motion compared to wind force with fractal textures wich yields a more dynamic motion..but it is way slower as said.

I could post some preview open gl shots on how the particles moves..but not today.

There was a change in the display of particles for lightwave 2015 compared to 11.6, in 2015 we now have a much smaller openGL display of the particles, some people seem to not like it ..because they are harder to spot, I would suggest to add some size to them in the emitter panel, or add hypervoxels and use show size there to help with that, but it should really be an option to use either small particle tics or larger.

I however prefer the smaller more accurate to pixel size particles, why? ....well it gives me a better feedback on how particle fields like this will look like when I finally add hv sprites, but I get that in the opengl view, previously it was just a big mess of particle points which couldnīt give me a proper feedback on the whole particle density to match my fine tuned sprites.

Bedtime now in stockholm...but it is actually early morning, my day/night schedule is whacked up and the sun is coming up, so I have to get to the tomb before my skin burns.

You sound like me. I just finished a project in LW/AE I have been working on for 5 months and I became a vampire, staying up until sunup then going to bed.
Good night we can talk tomorrow.

prometheus
08-06-2016, 12:02 AM
You sound like me. I just finished a project in LW/AE I have been working on for 5 months and I became a vampire, staying up until sunup then going to bed.
Good night we can talk tomorrow.

yes..probably a bit alike there, you got to catch inspirational waves and surf on it when they are there..that sometimes mean stayin up long, I guess that I have found my dayrythm to be way longer than it should be in order to follow "normal 8 sleep, 8 work, 8 daily chores schedules, itīs more like staing up for 20 hours or a bit above that, then sleep, but when I always try to sleep as long as I can, so it can often be 9-10 hours, occasionally when I canīt ..5-6 hours, but I try to take care of sleeping long enough..otherwise it simply turn stupid :)

And strangely, I prefer night time and not strong sunlight...every now and then you can also se me dancing naked in front of the moon in stockholm that is ...and howling, but donīt worry about creatures like me, your in austin texas so you are safe, unless you yourself go out for a streak.

This is prometheus...signing of for today.

js33
08-06-2016, 12:17 AM
yes..probably a bit alike there, you got to catch inspirational waves and surf on it when they are there..that sometimes mean stayin up long, I guess that I have found my dayrythm to be way longer than it should be in order to follow "normal 8 sleep, 8 work, 8 daily chores schedules, itīs more like staing up for 20 hours or a bit above that, then sleep, but when I always try to sleep as long as I can, so it can often be 9-10 hours, occasionally when I canīt ..5-6 hours, but I try to take care of sleeping long enough..otherwise it simply turn stupid :)

And strangely, I prefer night time and not strong sunlight...every now and then you can also se me dancing naked in front of the moon in stockholm that is ...and howling, but donīt worry about creatures like me, your in austin texas so you are safe, unless you yourself go out for a streak.

This is prometheus...signing of for today.

I like the sun but with my work schedule I have missed a lot of sunshine this summer. I do like to work at night as there are no distractions but it can mess up your sleep schedule.

Surrealist.
08-06-2016, 12:33 AM
What I am suggesting is that YOU are part of the small vocal few, and want to condemn everyone else for having an opposing view of the situation..

You are suggesting that and a lot of other things can not possibly suggest from what I have said. Further you are fabricating connections to things that I never made connections to. This is not a conversation. This is just you talking with yourself and making up a lot of things to make a point. Filling in connections and fabricating inconsistencies and contradictions from thin air.

I get it. You think the bog was a joke. I don't agree. My reasons have nothing to do with anything you have said. And since it is clear you are not interested in a conversation other than to be right, I don't have a lot of incentive to explain further.

Troll along now....

Prince Charming
08-06-2016, 12:44 AM
Nah. I would never put something that was actually a good thing in to such a negative context. In fact most of the negativity leveled at the developers have been in the context of something good and positive somehow turned into negatives.

What they did was positive and fairly above and beyond.

But it was not well received, by a small vocal few (which is always the case), even when it was informative, positive and lifted the spirits around here for a while.

That they stopped doing it is more to do with the lack of interest in dealing with the vocal few who troll with no other interest than to cause turbulence.

If it was a blunder, the users are equally to blame. And I point the finger at moderation for not being simply willing to warn and/or ban people.

It gets so out of hand around here that when there was a recent posting for a legit job for LWvers at CBS it was quickly turned into "this is a scam".

The same people seem to show up on all the threads with this kind of negatively and it is no wonder that blog posts turn nasty even when they are positive.

No nope. Sorry to disagree. Not a blunder. Not premature. Was good while it lasted.

My last response was simply a direct reply to this post and the one before it about not having something to market (where I agreed with you cause they didnt), and instead of answering any of what i said, you called me troll... Seems like when the going gets tough... you shut down like a little baby troll yourself. You took the easy way out of having to answer for your comments. I didnt put any words into your mouth... simply replying to this post. Thats all good though...


this part is very telling as to your true charactor...
"And I point the finger at moderation for not being simply willing to warn and/or ban people"
If they dont agree with your viewpoint ban them... I knew you were that type of scum form the start though. Troll along yourself... You would make a great Nazi. Not a fan of differing opinions are you?

js33
08-06-2016, 01:05 AM
Instead of trying to pick fights with people do you have anything constructive to add? We all know you are bryphi and I respect all the tuts you have done to push LW but you don't come off as a nice person that people want to converse with.

50one
08-06-2016, 02:07 AM
I wanted to respond to let everyone know that things are going very well but we are all heads down working hard and focusing on making the new features and workflows as solid as possible and squashing bugs for the next release. We are not horribly far away but we want to take the time needed to make the release as strong as possible considering the significant architectural foundational work that will be part of the release .

Also, I'm sure that many of you have seen that the new Star Trek show is using LightWave and much of that is due to their confidence in the future release and I'm confident that many more shows will follow their lead.

We are working on an update blog post in the near future so keep an eye out for that.


It was mentioned in the previous posts but I guess some folks missed that;)

spherical
08-06-2016, 02:14 AM
NewTek cannot be expected to devote resources into new releases if its "regular" customers are failing to upgrade. This is what drove Adobe to subscriptions.

"Drove"!?!?!? This appears to imply that they had no choice, their backs were up against the wall, arm twisted and forced into it by the customer base. NOT! Stockholders' dividends "drove" that decision. IOW, greed and keeping that CEO Bonus going. Customers upgraded all along when the development showed significant reason to invest in an upgrade. Little improvement = No investment. They didn't like being effectively told they were slacking off, so came up with a way to force the customer to pay without necessarily having to produce anything.

Surrealist.
08-06-2016, 02:30 AM
My last response was

You are forgetting something. You are still banned. You snuck back in. You are already not welcome here as long as you conduct yourself like this and resort to name calling, and badgering people.

I will back off and leave it to the mods to simply ban you again if that is what they choose to do. Clearly you learned nothing the last time in my opinion.

HenrikSkoglund
08-06-2016, 03:05 AM
Just a regular "observer" asking, why would the blogs Newtek did not be good? I thought they were interesting and made the wait for the next version of Lightwave a little easier? Only problem is, they should assign something like that to someone, a web developer, externally, away from the rest of the team, so that updates to it is not such a problem in times of software release for example.

bazsa73
08-06-2016, 03:23 AM
Just a regular "observer" asking, why would the blogs Newtek did not be good? I thought they were interesting and made the wait for the next version of Lightwave a little easier? Only problem is, they should assign something like that to someone, a web developer, externally, away from the rest of the team, so that updates to it is not such a problem in times of software release for example.

-They don't think it's important enough
-They have no resources
-Are afraid of leaking out too much information and the competition steals it
-All the above

OnlineRender
08-06-2016, 03:56 AM
-They don't think it's important enough
-They have no resources
-Are afraid of leaking out too much information and the competition steals it
-All the above

pretty much, think of it this way regarding the blog, spend a couple of hours tarting a wordpress page up or use they hours to create a decent content download for LWNEXT or development , keep in mind it's a pretty small team when it comes to marketing...

afraid of a leak is an understatement, I got ben pretty drunk and he still didn't give any juicy details, in fact we actually didn't really talk about LW even after the demo, I don't know if it was actively avoided or beer and pool was more fun however it was like getting blood out of a stone and it seems to be the general default response from all members of staff " can't say anything in development " ... they really are in shutdown mode and it's pretty evident that request has came from upper management.

the vibe I was getting was LWNEXT is not out because it's simply not ready, end of!
the really have ripped it apart and rebuilt it, but in a good way, some of the things I seen looked really good, but it was the subtle tweaks that caught my attention, I mean it's still LW, it will still piss you off and it will still give you that satisfaction feeling when you hit f9, but it's moving in the right direction, perhaps even current one could say.

reading this back it sounds like a marketing post , but trust me I'm not exactly on good terms with NT atm and I can assure you I get where the anger is coming from 100% , but you really need to stop hitting on each other, it's getting personal between members that have known each other for over 10 years ...

don't hit the player , hit the game!

HenrikSkoglund
08-06-2016, 04:27 AM
pretty much, think of it this way regarding the blog, spend a couple of hours tarting a wordpress page up or use they hours to create a decent content download for LWNEXT or development , keep in mind it's a pretty small team when it comes to marketing...

afraid of a leak is an understatement, I got ben pretty drunk and he still didn't give any juicy details, in fact we actually didn't really talk about LW even after the demo, I don't know if it was actively avoided or beer and pool was more fun however it was like getting blood out of a stone and it seems to be the general default response from all members of staff " can't say anything in development " ... they really are in shutdown mode and it's pretty evident that request has came from upper management.

the vibe I was getting was LWNEXT is not out because it's simply not ready, end of!
the really have ripped it apart and rebuilt it, but in a good way, some of the things I seen looked really good, but it was the subtle tweaks that caught my attention, I mean it's still LW, it will still piss you off and it will still give you that satisfaction feeling when you hit f9, but it's moving in the right direction, perhaps even current one could say.

reading this back it sounds like a marketing post , but trust me I'm not exactly on good terms with NT atm and I can assure you I get where the anger is coming from 100% , but you really need to stop hitting on each other, it's getting personal between members that have known each other for over 10 years ...

don't hit the player , hit the game!


Seems to be valid points guys, I agree too that they should keep things secret, there are though things they can write about a new version that dont give too much away. Like they did on performance upgrades for example.

Oh well, your post made me quite worked up on the new version OnlineRender :D

jasonwestmas
08-06-2016, 08:03 AM
I personally think the blog was a joke, and seeing how things ended up now... I think it hurt them much more than it helped them. The way I see it... they drew a lot of attention to themselves so that everyone could watch them flop on their face AGAIN. Did you see how the foundries release was handled, or c4d, or Houdini. Do you not notice a big difference in the professional non gimmicky way that those companies handle things compared to NT. I sure do... WHY NO SIGRAPH? They had that very successful blog to present and wow people with... LMFAO!!!!!!!!!


I didn't interpret the blog as a means to compete with competing Siggraph presentations. Not saying you're wrong about the "Newtekian method" but the Blog was just a quick teaser that I was happy to read, as superficial as it was. I have no idea what kind of time or budget these guys actually have. I dunno, the lightwave name is already "lying down" to put it mildly, I don't see why we have to keep reminding people about that.

Edit: Nor was the blog a means to present the Lightwave release. I didn't see it as that because the newest Lightwave hasn't been released yet.

hrgiger
08-06-2016, 08:51 AM
Well the blog is a good idea and people were obviously interested in the information they did provide. But then dropping out of it months before the release is out was not a good move. They could have easily posted some renders or spent a few minutes time updating people on how things were progressing. Were it just a month before release and they were in a crunch to push out the release asap that would be one thing, but its been well over 4 months ago.

cresshead
08-06-2016, 09:28 AM
140 days until i can unwrap my pressies :)

bazsa73
08-06-2016, 09:49 AM
By the way Rob has said something in another thread that they are pretty close to a final-final-mega-final version but they don't want to release it in a hurry because
in this new release the archtitecture has been changed drastically and if it's full of bugs it will cause more woe than merriment. So to say.

hrgiger
08-06-2016, 09:53 AM
Well Rob said not horribly far off which could mean 2 weeks or could mean 4 months. After you wait 4 1/2 months for a blog post, they must not think 4 1/2 months is not a horribly long time.

Kaptive
08-06-2016, 10:04 AM
Am I the only one who doesn't give a pair of dingos' kidneys when it comes out, nor that the blog didn't carry on? It was pretty clear that it was an early presentation of the direction of Lightwave. They showed us, now they are getting on with it. There is no faux pas, just unfair expectations by a few in this forum really. But hey ho, threads like this will roll on and on until it comes out. Just sayin.

erikals
08-06-2016, 10:10 AM
Am I the only one who doesn't give a pair of dingos' kidneys when it comes out, nor that the blog didn't carry on?
you forgot to add skipped Siggraph info... anyway, the answer is...

yes.

pulling the plug with no further explanation is seldom popular, among most of us.

jeric_synergy
08-06-2016, 10:46 AM
Comedians have crowd warmers, rappers have hype men: even people who are inclined to be enthusiastic can use some encouragement.

I certainly can't recommend LW to anybody at my AE group, even if they are struggling with other, free, apps, because of the uncertainty. Multiply that by many many users, and it's not any kind of benefit to sales.

Makes me miss Brad Peebler --now, THERE'S a hype man, in the good sense.

DesertRat
08-06-2016, 11:27 AM
Time for a group hug + some distracting pictures of cats?

These cats adopted us over the last year. Scruffy, the white one, has lived on the property for many years, but he could see you coming a mile away and always hid, living a wild life of solitude. It wasn't until Little Kitty, the black one, came around...man is he a force unto himself, such a strong personality...anyway he brought Scruffy out of the shadows. I swear Little Kitty has Psionic powers, not only did he immediately enslave my mind to do his bidding, but at the start Scruffy tried to fight him, making all the usual cat screams and yowls, but Little Kitty would just stare him down. Now they are classic "frenemies"... :)

Both now enjoy being well fed and receive lots of love.

Ok, back to the regularly scheduled grumpy fest. :D

OnlineRender
08-06-2016, 11:37 AM
there's no point in going to siggraph , because they had nothing to show and it costs a small fortune not only that, it takes time away from vital staff members, personally I would rather that money was spent on development, the blogs a bummer though...

djwaterman
08-06-2016, 11:44 AM
Am I the only one who doesn't give a pair of dingos' kidneys when it comes out, nor that the blog didn't carry on? It was pretty clear that it was an early presentation of the direction of Lightwave. They showed us, now they are getting on with it. There is no faux pas, just unfair expectations by a few in this forum really. But hey ho, threads like this will roll on and on until it comes out. Just sayin.

No you're not alone.

prometheus
08-06-2016, 12:22 PM
Is it appropiate to post this? right now and in this thread..as a reminder? it is so easy to forget ..so before anyone gets a red card out of here :) ....

"
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50one
08-06-2016, 12:23 PM
No you're not alone.

Why not all you guys who are extremely happy and don't give a hoot about everything create your own thread where you can express your coolness even more? :D:D:D

Kaptive
08-06-2016, 12:24 PM
Thing is, I get the feeling that the next release of LW is going to be a bit of a new beginning. Not extreme/unfamiliar in the way of core, but essentially giving LW fresh/updated foundations (and everything that comes from that).
Of all the releases, this is the one that needs to be allowed to cook properly. Lightwave as it is, probably isn't the best to recommend... it's fine (in most cases) for current users, but for new users, maybe not. Not sure I fully feel that, but whatever. What I'm saying, is that if they have put all this effort into upgrading, then maybe they are wanting to turn it all around, to make a 3d package that has broader appeal and functionality... and maybe lends itself to far greater 3rd party support as well as other things. I like the look of what they have shown us... I'm looking forward to it.

Waiting for things is always hard, especially if you want/need it really badly... but as they say... all good things come to those who wait.
I send my best to the devs and lw3dg... fingers crossed all is going well!

- - - Updated - - -


Why not all you guys who are extremely happy and don't give a hoot about everything create your own thread where you can express your coolness even more? :D:D:D

Haha, positively icebox.
The world keeps turning.

prometheus
08-06-2016, 12:29 PM
Time for a group hug + some distracting pictures of cats?

These cats adopted us over the last year. Scruffy, the white one, has lived on the property for many years, but he could see you coming a mile away and always hid, living a wild life of solitude. It wasn't until Little Kitty, the black one, came around...man is he a force unto himself, such a strong personality...anyway he brought Scruffy out of the shadows. I swear Little Kitty has Psionic powers, not only did he immediately enslave my mind to do his bidding, but at the start Scruffy tried to fight him, making all the usual cat screams and yowls, but Little Kitty would just stare him down. Now they are classic "frenemies"... :)

Both now enjoy being well fed and receive lots of love.

Ok, back to the regularly scheduled grumpy fest. :D

The world would be a better place if we had to occopy ourself most of the time petting cats:) and to receive their wonderful calming purring sound, at the cost of t-shirts having some fine holes in them due to the pawn reactions from a cat being petted.
There is just too few cats being rendered here in these forums.

50one
08-06-2016, 12:36 PM
I'm happy with the update posted by Rob although in a strange place but hey, at least we've got some communication.
It's Saturday gonna finish my dinner and enjoy a glass of fine shy pig and look at the damn progress bar(60% 6h34m left)

Enjoy your weekend folks!

jasonwestmas
08-06-2016, 01:13 PM
you forgot to add skipped Siggraph info... anyway, the answer is...

yes.

pulling the plug with no further explanation is seldom popular, among most of us.

Agreed. Kinda lame to do that to people.

- - - Updated - - -




Enjoy your weekend folks!

you too!

bobakabob
08-06-2016, 01:16 PM
Am I the only one who doesn't give a pair of dingos' kidneys when it comes out, nor that the blog didn't carry on? It was pretty clear that it was an early presentation of the direction of Lightwave. They showed us, now they are getting on with it. There is no faux pas, just unfair expectations by a few in this forum really. But hey ho, threads like this will roll on and on until it comes out. Just sayin.

Yes, says it all :-) How's the weather? I'm walking in the Scottish Highlands and it's raining heavily.

raymondtrace
08-06-2016, 02:54 PM
"Drove"!?!?!? This appears to imply that they had no choice, their backs were up against the wall, arm twisted and forced into it by the customer base. NOT! Stockholders' dividends "drove" that decision. IOW, greed and keeping that CEO Bonus going. Customers upgraded all along when the development showed significant reason to invest in an upgrade. Little improvement = No investment. They didn't like being effectively told they were slacking off, so came up with a way to force the customer to pay without necessarily having to produce anything.

Right. I'm not sure what you're questioning/exclaiming with the word "drove" when you note the stockholders drove it. There was no other choice for the stockholders (the actual customers of a company).

EDIT: and it wasn't simply slacking off. Adobe's apps hit a feature plateau. Flash was fading even while they worked on the Macromedia acquisition. Their web design tools were being abandoned. There isn't a lot more that could be packed into Photoshop without making it look like a gimmick. That's why they've moved into services.

cove
08-06-2016, 03:04 PM
A bit sad that these forums gets fueled with speculations here and there, but considering current communication level sent out by the Lightwave group, results like this seem to be unavoidable.
I got a sense of it to be very much like a virus, it spreads..or cancer, and the cure in my opinion should be some progress statements from the lightwave group, itīs like..I believe this, I think this...no this will happen etc, speculation upon speculation growing on eachother, and it will only carry on getting worse...yes I say worse, because there is no rule to set this on direction to a good output...If I should suggest something, the only thing to stop the speculation after speculation hitting one eachother in a seemingly particle hardon collider with spin here and there etc, you would need information from the proper source of mass, namely the lightwave group.

I wonder if the lightwave groups way of communicating and itīs interference as such in these forums .. is similar to the higgs boson particle? we try to find it..it must be there but we donīt know,(we didnīt)...at least the case scenario may be similar..once the lw group makes an interference communication....it will gain mass and the rest of us will gather around that I suspect, and we will have something of gravity and mass to really discuss about.

So lightwave group..be the center of gravity and make some impact, communicate..and above all, do it well and unleash the power...



https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/eNr-EIj79ad612ofE-qAWgl6OzjGBtNEyrj49LCx2tVoALZEOqt1Uya-lGEE961Hb9VZiI0JIQ=w1920-h1080-no


PROMETHEUS JUMPGATE TO LIGHTWAVE...
http://michaeli65.wix.com/prometheus

I see we have a Physics theme with image.
[Nice image prometheus].
In response i came up with the image posted.
---------------------------------------------

While i think your higgs boson comparison is valid i think that
Stephen Hawking [Physicist] statement about black holes is equally valid as a comparison.
eg. "What ever falls into a black hole cannot come out again"
In other words Robs got himself into a hole [A black one].
All the varied comments on this forum go from here to Rob and just like Stephen Hawking says there are no answers returning to us.

Albert Einstein could also chip in here and say "All Rob wants is a bit more space and time to complete his work" :)

JoePoe
08-06-2016, 03:21 PM
... hardon collider with spin here and there...



:ohmy::ohmy:
Kinda makes this whole thread worth it :D!

prometheus
08-06-2016, 03:54 PM
Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
... hardon collider with spin here and there...

:ohmy::ohmy:
Kinda makes this whole thread worth it :D!


I thought no one would notice:D
just glad to cheer things up a bit, I actually wove that error in there to ensure that my statements is read up on properly, it is in fact originating from a book by Richard Dawkins, where the publishers made a spelling error of it all, he mentioned that on youtube somehwere, and that it came out a bit wrong.:D

cove
08-06-2016, 03:55 PM
:ohmy::ohmy:
Kinda makes this whole thread worth it :D!

That particular wording " hardon collider "caught my eye as well.
Makes me smile every time i see it.

While were into physics humour.
Did you here the one about the physicist who experimented on 2 ducks.
The 2 ducks don,t go quack quack quack any more they go
"quark quark quark" :D

prometheus
08-06-2016, 04:04 PM
I see we have a Physics theme with image.
[Nice image prometheus].
In response i came up with the image posted.
---------------------------------------------

While i think your higgs boson comparison is valid i think that
Stephen Hawking [Physicist] statement about black holes is equally valid as a comparison.
eg. "What ever falls into a black hole cannot come out again"
In other words Robs got himself into a hole [A black one].
All the varied comments on this forum go from here to Rob and just like Stephen Hawking says there are no answers returning to us.

Albert Einstein could also chip in here and say "All Rob wants is a bit more space and time to complete his work" :)


Well...the conditions isnīt exactly comparable, and more so a sort of philosofical approach to find similarities in events taking place in the fabric of time and causality events, there are more variables to it all than all that, and though we have found the higgs boson, we havenīt collapsed in to a black hole really, which I believe is a completly different thing as well than just comparing events that seemingly is giving something itīs mass.

And as time has proven, your statements about Rob got himself in a hole, is really taken out of nowhere..or coming from some kind frustration perhaps (there was actually a recent interference where rob made a statement) which means it did bounce back...so that thinking I can not chime in with :stumped: I donīt think an event of collapsing in to a black hole is anywhere near a philosofical point of view of processes in the universe to that of the higss boson field and creation of mass...nor should we take all that as anything more than philosofical thinking.

The communication interference can be found in the thread about lightwave ads and cows.

"Quote Originally Posted by robpowers3d View Post
I wanted to respond to let everyone know that things are going very well but we are all heads down working hard and focusing on making the new features and workflows as solid as possible and squashing bugs for the next release. We are not horribly far away but we want to take the time needed to make the release as strong as possible considering the significant architectural foundational work that will be part of the release .

Also, I'm sure that many of you have seen that the new Star Trek show is using LightWave and much of that is due to their confidence in the future release and I'm confident that many more shows will follow their lead.

We are working on an update blog post in the near future so keep an eye out for that."

And perhaps that very statement now serve as the particle of mass, or center of interest..where it may avoid forum "particles/posts" to go everywhere and anywhere in chaotic speculations, though it is in the end all a matter of time when things may behave differently again.

Just me thinking, without drugs...really :)

Oh the duck joke, seemed like a lame duck joke really :)
Michael

Surrealist.
08-06-2016, 10:05 PM
Please for the love of god release LightrWave Next. Save us all. :D

js33
08-06-2016, 10:13 PM
It's like being in "One flew over the cuckoo's nest" in here. :rolleyes::D

prometheus
08-06-2016, 11:10 PM
Please for the love of god release LightrWave Next. Save us all. :D

Only a few will be saved, some others are already screwed..or screwed up.


It's like being in "One flew over the cuckoo's nest" in here. :rolleyes::D

At least itīs not the overlook hotel, that would be scary.

js33
08-07-2016, 12:56 AM
At least itīs not the overlook hotel, that would be scary.

I don't know...someone could break completely and start seeing things and take a hatchet to the door. Let's hope not.

erikals
08-07-2016, 01:21 AM
you guys know that Mr.Rid has already been there with LightWave... right?!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7049WVfSanM

prometheus
08-07-2016, 01:28 AM
you guys know that Mr.Rid has already been there with LightWave... right?!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7049WVfSanM

Yeah letīs all shine, and see and project what we want, and yes..that must have been a huge wine stock broken..and yeah, great sim from David.

erikals
08-07-2016, 01:34 AM
quite old simulation, 7 years, would be cool to see a 2016 version   http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

(actually have a bottle of wine for reference right in front of me)

js33
08-07-2016, 02:44 AM
Yeah the simulation looked great except like he said his machine at the time could not push enough particles to get the scale of the liquid smaller.

Thanks for pointing out that German website on your Youtube page or I would never have known anyone was showcasing my Fuel Prep animation.

js33
08-07-2016, 03:13 AM
Hey guys, erikals and prometheus, I just noticed we all joined the forum in 2003 so I guess we are the old-timers.:D

BokadCastle
08-07-2016, 03:27 AM
OK I guess someone needs to start a thread addressing Rob Powers directly and ask him to address us gnarly group of rambunctious Wavers before we start messing up this hotel.
I didn't find anything in the Rob Powers posts to allay suspicions that LW is going under as did CORE.

js33
08-07-2016, 03:38 AM
Man this is a tough crowd.:D

50one
08-07-2016, 03:42 AM
I didn't find anything in the Rob Powers posts to allay suspicions that LW is going under as did CORE.

I always assume that only bad things could happen so when they happen I'm always like "HA!!, I knew it!"

BokadCastle
08-07-2016, 03:56 AM
Yeah, the 'atmosphere' is similar...very similar.

BokadCastle
08-07-2016, 04:54 AM
my humble suggestion for all, do no further work or exploration of LW, as that may be an investment in time unrewarded.

erikals
08-07-2016, 04:55 AM
Hey guys, erikals and prometheus, I just noticed we all joined the forum in 2003 so I guess we are the old-timers.:D


yes, just like ou Hero Donald Trumpet! :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYarJpwJ8Io

BokadCastle
08-07-2016, 05:08 AM
thanks for that, idiot from no.

erikals
08-07-2016, 06:06 AM
yes, FU2

:)

Dan Ritchie
08-07-2016, 11:29 AM
I didn't find anything in the Rob Powers posts to allay suspicions that LW is going under as did CORE.

It's not been a year since the last update, so it's not like they're running late or something.

Julez4001
08-07-2016, 12:51 PM
All this whining will go squash when they release new info, it can go on forever and ever. The gnashing of teeth would be loud.....post...and all is reset like that ticker in the incredible Hulk movie. Rob announce they are squashing bugs which may determine if they release certain features of not so let them do their job. I do not need another FiberFactory....

tyrot
08-07-2016, 01:39 PM
i read 11 pages .. ******* it .. instead of reading dozen of pages .. i would rather read couple of sentences and screenshots from NT..

And please... marketing shutdown is really doing no good to anyone...

Megalodon2.0
08-07-2016, 01:48 PM
yes, FU2

:)
Agreed.

cove
08-07-2016, 02:04 PM
Well...the conditions isnīt exactly comparable, and more so a sort of philosofical approach to find similarities in events taking place in the fabric of time and causality events, there are more variables to it all than all that, and though we have found the higgs boson, we havenīt collapsed in to a black hole really, which I believe is a completly different thing as well than just comparing events that seemingly is giving something itīs mass.

And as time has proven, your statements about Rob got himself in a hole, is really taken out of nowhere..or coming from some kind frustration perhaps (there was actually a recent interference where rob made a statement) which means it did bounce back...so that thinking I can not chime in with :stumped: I donīt think an event of collapsing in to a black hole is anywhere near a philosofical point of view of processes in the universe to that of the higss boson field and creation of mass...nor should we take all that as anything more than philosofical thinking.

The communication interference can be found in the thread about lightwave ads and cows.

"Quote Originally Posted by robpowers3d View Post
I wanted to respond to let everyone know that things are going very well but we are all heads down working hard and focusing on making the new features and workflows as solid as possible and squashing bugs for the next release. We are not horribly far away but we want to take the time needed to make the release as strong as possible considering the significant architectural foundational work that will be part of the release .

Also, I'm sure that many of you have seen that the new Star Trek show is using LightWave and much of that is due to their confidence in the future release and I'm confident that many more shows will follow their lead.


We are working on an update blog post in the near future so keep an eye out for that."

And perhaps that very statement now serve as the particle of mass, or center of interest..where it may avoid forum "particles/posts" to go everywhere and anywhere in chaotic speculations, though it is in the end all a matter of time when things may behave differently again.

Just me thinking, without drugs...really :)

Oh the duck joke, seemed like a lame duck joke really :)
Michael

Hi prometheus
I had already seen Robs post but thought it was no more than some re-quote from a much earlier Rob posting as it looked familier.
I did though look twice at the Reference to Star trek and do not remember Star trek being mentioned in the earlier post.
Never the less it was seeing Star trek mentioned that promted me to include a star trek aspect to my fun image.
So with my alternative, tounge in cheek/black hole, comparision and Robs statement i seemed to, in my image, to have covered all aspects of the present situation.
Obviously my image given the latest rob posting is now obselete and so is my text references to Stephen Hawking.

But my reference to Albert Einstein
"All Rob wants is a bit more space and time to complete his work"
has stood the test of time, as it were, and i think i was absolutely spot on.

Quote.
"Oh the duck joke, seemed like a lame duck joke really"

I forgot to mention one of the ducks was also seen to be walking with a limp :)


New image posted. Cove Rob and Einstein to. :)

js33
08-07-2016, 04:32 PM
Maybe Lightwave Next is being beta tested on the new Star Trek show and those guys can really put it to the test and find all the bugs and suggest improvements before they release it to us.

jeric_synergy
08-07-2016, 04:35 PM
Better them than us.

js33
08-07-2016, 04:58 PM
Well yes and no. They get to work through the bugs but we will not be given a chance to suggest any improvements until the product is already released.

jeric_synergy
08-07-2016, 05:09 PM
We never did anyway: only the Beta Corps got that.

Surrealist.
08-07-2016, 05:12 PM
Beta testing is the absolute most over-looked, under-funded, under-estimated, poorly managed aspect of 3D software programing bar none.

You can not have a select group of people hand picked and expect to find and squash all bugs. There is just no way. It would be one thing if the bugs that get released by all software companies were obscure hard to find little gems. But usually the bugs are incredibly obvious and every easy to find. And the only way to find them is to spread a wide enough net to catch the most number of diverse users. Not just a production team or twelve, but literally thousands of users.

And the only way to do that is to offer a 2 month or more free to all open beta for the software and let the users put it to work in their daily lives.

Then close the beta, the license expires and the software is released. There are lots of companies that do this. Nuke is one. I have been on that test group. Super easy to sign up. And Autodesk Stingray as well. Super easy to get signed on. And in fact these two have been ongoing for over a year!

The beta testing elitist model does not work.

erikals
08-07-2016, 05:15 PM
i posted a ton of Improve Your Renders tricks here >
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?139419-Lightwave-render-The-Hague-Apartment

might be something for "Digic Pictures Hungary" to look into...

js33
08-07-2016, 06:34 PM
Beta testing is the absolute most over-looked, under-funded, under-estimated, poorly managed aspect of 3D software programing bar none.

You can not have a select group of people hand picked and expect to find and squash all bugs. There is just no way. It would be one thing if the bugs that get released by all software companies were obscure hard to find little gems. But usually the bugs are incredibly obvious and every easy to find. And the only way to find them is to spread a wide enough net to catch the most number of diverse users. Not just a production team or twelve, but literally thousands of users.

And the only way to do that is to offer a 2 month or more free to all open beta for the software and let the users put it to work in their daily lives.

Then close the beta, the license expires and the software is released. There are lots of companies that do this. Nuke is one. I have been on that test group. Super easy to sign up. And Autodesk Stingray as well. Super easy to get signed on. And in fact these two have been ongoing for over a year!

The beta testing elitist model does not work.

Yes that is what Modo has started doing with version 10. If you own 10 they have open betas for the upcoming releases.

Dillon
08-07-2016, 07:07 PM
NewTek did this for LW6, if I recall correctly. Or was it LW9? It was so long ago.

I still have the NewTek Betaforce Tshirt that was sold along with the open beta. And have Tim Jennison's signature on it.

Open Beta's are awesome, but I imagine the bug reporting/confirmation is a deluge to work with when you have a small team.


Yes that is what Modo has started doing with version 10. If you own 10 they have open betas for the upcoming releases.

js33
08-07-2016, 07:10 PM
NewTek did this for LW6, if I recall correctly. Or was it LW9? It was so long ago.

I still have the NewTek Betaforce Tshirt that was sold along with the open beta. And have Tim Jennison's signature on it.

Open Beta's are awesome, but I imagine the bug reporting/confirmation is a deluge to work with when you have a small team.

Maybe they will start it up again after this initial release with the reworked core.

jwiede
08-07-2016, 08:15 PM
Well the blog is a good idea and people were obviously interested in the information they did provide. But then dropping out of it months before the release is out was not a good move. They could have easily posted some renders or spent a few minutes time updating people on how things were progressing. Were it just a month before release and they were in a crunch to push out the release asap that would be one thing, but its been well over 4 months ago.

A situation that is not helped by Rob making a post that doesn't even acknowledge an unexpected delay occurred at all.

erikals
08-07-2016, 08:19 PM
Rob kinda did i would say...
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?150949-2-ads-with-Lightwave-Cows-and-Octopus&p=1477849&viewfull=1#post1477849


Yes, speaking for myself I certainly acknowledge and share your frustration about this and will do my very best to improve the situation.

Dillon
08-07-2016, 08:26 PM
Rob kinda did i would say...
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?150949-2-ads-with-Lightwave-Cows-and-Octopus&p=1477849&viewfull=1#post1477849

My gut sunk when I saw the words "the situation"...

Dear God ... Please.... no.

robertoortiz
08-07-2016, 09:31 PM
My gut sunk when I saw the words "the situation"...

Dear God ... Please.... no.

Well the man is recovering from surgery....I honestly think he deserves a break.

Rayek
08-07-2016, 11:44 PM
Beta testing is the absolute most over-looked, under-funded, under-estimated, poorly managed aspect of 3D software programing bar none.

You can not have a select group of people hand picked and expect to find and squash all bugs. There is just no way. It would be one thing if the bugs that get released by all software companies were obscure hard to find little gems. But usually the bugs are incredibly obvious and every easy to find. And the only way to find them is to spread a wide enough net to catch the most number of diverse users. Not just a production team or twelve, but literally thousands of users.

And the only way to do that is to offer a 2 month or more free to all open beta for the software and let the users put it to work in their daily lives.

Then close the beta, the license expires and the software is released. There are lots of companies that do this. Nuke is one. I have been on that test group. Super easy to sign up. And Autodesk Stingray as well. Super easy to get signed on. And in fact these two have been ongoing for over a year!

The beta testing elitist model does not work.

This. This, is one of the reasons why I like Blender's development: anyone may chime in with testing, work with beta features that become available in special builds, and it results in a LOT of bug squashing. It also results in one of the most stable 3d applications I have worked with.

A second reason for liking Blender's development: the openness in communication. It is a breath of fresh air compared to most companies, and in particular closed off companies such as Maxon and Newtek. Just today Ton Roosendaal wrote up a small report of his "business and relations" trip to the states and Canada:

https://www.blender.org/media-exposure/siggraph-2016-report/

After reading this, one cannot help but feel optimistic and jazzed up about Blender, and the people surrounding Blender's development. A very positive and down-to-earth tone that explains how studios are working with Blender, and how companies like AMD are now sponsoring full-time developers.

And, of course, social media and the Blender Foundation/Institute website keep posting news all over the place. Anyone interested is invited to meet the developers and discuss Blender related topics on the IRC channel(s).

Third, a clear and open roadmap is presented.

Fourth, anyone can participate - python plugin development, writing parts of the manual, translate Blender in a new language, start developing new features for Blender, and so on, and so forth.

All of this creates a feel of community, and becoming a part of it. The Blender Foundation also makes good use of social media, and keeps the communication flowing along through new channels that become available.

A similar situation with OpenTOonz (the 2d animation software that was open sourced end of March: the first release was a bug fest. Users sent in bug reports and feature regressions within one or two days, and by now, in just four months, the latest release has fixed the majority of issues, AND a number of pretty good new features were added.

Photoline's beta is available to anyone who purchased a license. I and other users have reported many bugs, often quite obscure ones, which I doubt would have been discovered by a limited group of selected elite users. And again a sense of community is born from this. And a sense of having at least some influence on the software, which translates in loyalty, and just a good feeling about the software in general.

The Serif Affinity team works along similar lines, offering public betas of the Windows version for example, even before the software is actually on sale. It proves to be an effective method to 1) lure new users in (hey, it's free!), 2) feeds the social networks, and 3) squash bugs. And they provide a clear roadmap.

I agree with Surrealist: I am convinced that, if Newtek would open up Lightwave's beta to licensed users, it would only deliver positive results - in more ways than just squashing bugs.

BokadCastle
08-07-2016, 11:56 PM
Yep, my first port of call - should LW fall as did CORE and the signs are there.

Chris S. (Fez)
08-08-2016, 12:13 AM
I agree with Surrealist: I am convinced that, if Newtek would open up Lightwave's beta to licensed users, it would only deliver positive results - in more ways than just squashing bugs.

Yes. An Open Beta would excite and unite Lightwavers.

spherical
08-08-2016, 12:20 AM
Yes. An Open Beta would excite and unite Lightwavers.

Yes. And strike horror (once again) in the hearts of coders who have to deal with the cacophony of that which is incoming. Did that. Abandoned the concept long ago. I think that it is a necessary evil, but those in charge think otherwise.

BokadCastle
08-08-2016, 12:31 AM
Yes. And strike horror (once again) in the hearts of coders who have to deal with the cacophony of that which is incoming. Did that. Abandoned the concept long ago. I think that it is a necessary evil, but those in charge think otherwise.

So you've failed.
A newer generation will likely succeed.

cower
08-08-2016, 12:55 AM
I hope Lightwave dev team working hard and we will see some results soon... But according to "google trends" lightwave lost 98% of searches from 2004... maya lost around half of searches from that time. Only blender shows some growing... modo keeps stabel... So according to google trends cg market is dying.. as interest to technology overall... We will see how things go later.. But cg industry will change..

BokadCastle
08-08-2016, 01:06 AM
for me, I now need proof of intent given the CORE experience.
My advice to the LightWave community -
If you're thinking of upgrading - don't.
If you're thinking of buying tutorials - don't.
If you're a school, college or any institution thinking of buying anything from LW3DG - don't.
If you're a single user thinking of buying a 3rd party plug-in - don't.

Make them prove their products are worthy, which is not the current case.

BokadCastle
08-08-2016, 01:22 AM
To be perfectly clear, I don't think anyone should now be investing time, effort or money in these people called LW3DG who presumably live in a bubble.

Kinetic Shapes
08-08-2016, 01:45 AM
To be perfectly clear, I don't think anyone should now be investing time, effort or money in these people called LW3DG who presumably live in a bubble.

POV-Ray is the future of 3D, or so some people thought in 1991. Softimage will be forever the industrial standard for feature film work (1993 after Jurassic Park). Cinema 4D is just classed as hobbyist in 2006 and those mo-graph tools will never take off. Maya version 1 was buggy like hell and obviously had no future. Lightwave is dead announced by a number of users at version 8, 9 10, 11 and 2015. LOL. Let's hope LW Next will reverse the naysayers and doomsayers of LW with it's new fangled architecture taking it away from early 2000 tech. :)

BokadCastle
08-08-2016, 01:52 AM
:)

Thank you.

BokadCastle
08-08-2016, 01:59 AM
My intention was to impose a 'strike' on LW3DG ridiculous as that is, to force some sort of serious response.

wingzeta
08-08-2016, 02:18 AM
Glad Rob finally posted something. It was overdue, because LW3DG has not done a good job of managing expectations. Software can take a lot of time to create. Most of us understand that, and would rather have a solid version, than a rushed, crash and burn. There are two things (just my opinion) that set up the wrong expectations for this release, and they can easily be avoided in the future.

1. You decided to copy Autodesk, and slap a YEAR on the thing instead of the VERSION number! Once you call it 2015, you imply a yearly release. You also repel potential new customers, who won't buy your software in an "off year", like 2016, as they wait for you to "get current". But if it were 2015 or 2016, or 2038, LW v12.xxx is what it is, the "current" version of the program. If it takes 2 years to develop LW v13, then it does.

Suggestion: Drop the year, and go back to version, or some other designator. When you have a new interface and feel a need to re-brand, simply start calling it LightWave Studio v1, or something like that.

2. The blog went to radio silence without warning. With the blog, you created the "expectation" of semi-regular communication, which failed. It seems it was sort of a side effort by guys who are too busy to maintain it, which is understandable. It's not easy, that's why it is usually a full time job for a marketing person, or junior staff member to create that content.

My suggestion: If staff (i.e. money), can't be set aside to keep things up to date, kill the blog, and make these sorts of "sneak peeks" of future tools in development part of the newsletter. That way the info can still generate excitement for the future by reaching the users, but not create dashed expectations when 4 months go by without a blog post, because there is no expectation it has to be in every newsletter. It becomes more of a treat when it is in the newsletter, like "did you see how good the new render looks? I can't wait for the next version!"

I'm not worried about the next version. I think it will be good. Rob is leading in the right direction on that front. I'm just worried about the confused marketing, because if the user base shrinks rather than grows, those of us who want to stick around, may not have that option. There's a lot of competition. It's not a great time to manage expectations poorly. Looking forward to "Lucky, Lightwave 13":lwicon:

BokadCastle
08-08-2016, 02:29 AM
Glad Rob finally posted something. It was overdue, because LW3DG has not done a good job of managing expectations. Software can take a lot of time to create. Most of us understand that, and would rather have a solid version, than a rushed, crash and burn. There are two things (just my opinion) that set up the wrong expectations for this release, and they can easily be avoided in the future.

1. You decided to copy Autodesk, and slap a YEAR on the thing instead of the VERSION number! Once you call it 2015, you imply a yearly release. You also repel potential new customers, who won't buy your software in an "off year", like 2016, as they wait for you to "get current". But if it were 2015 or 2016, or 2038, LW v12.xxx is what it is, the "current" version of the program. If it takes 2 years to develop LW v13, then it does.

Suggestion: Drop the year, and go back to version, or some other designator. When you have a new interface and feel a need to re-brand, simply start calling it LightWave Studio v1, or something like that.

2. The blog went to radio silence without warning. With the blog, you created the "expectation" of semi-regular communication, which failed. It seems it was sort of a side effort by guys who are too busy to maintain it, which is understandable. It's not easy, that's why it is usually a full time job for a marketing person, or junior staff member to create that content.

My suggestion: If staff (i.e. money), can't be set aside to keep things up to date, kill the blog, and make these sorts of "sneak peeks" of future tools in development part of the newsletter. That way the info can still generate excitement for the future by reaching the users, but not create dashed expectations when 4 months go by without a blog post, because there is no expectation it has to be in every newsletter. It becomes more of a treat when it is in the newsletter, like "did you see how good the new render looks? I can't wait for the next version!"

I'm not worried about the next version. I think it will be good. Rob is leading in the right direction on that front. I'm just worried about the confused marketing, because if the user base shrinks rather than grows, those of us who want to stick around, may not have that option. There's a lot of competition. It's not a great time to manage expectations poorly. Looking forward to "Lucky, Lightwave 13":lwicon:

zzz

- - - Updated - - -

zzz

Kinetic Shapes
08-08-2016, 02:42 AM
Glad Rob finally posted something. It was overdue, because LW3DG has not done a good job of managing expectations.... <snip>

Couldn't agree with your post more. I've been using LW professionally on and off for fifteen years and it has lot of potential that I hope LW next will deliver on. Not just to keep current users but to attract new users. I added Cinema 4D to keep relevant in the job and freelance market doing motion graphics etc, but I still do loads in LW. Nothing is certain or guaranteed in this industry and I don't see why within the next 5 years, a modern LW with good marketing can't become an industry standard. It's new design along with consistent thought out marketing can change it's current perception drastically. I don't want to see LW, Modo etc fail and Autodesk left as the sole proprietor of all things 3D.

fishhead
08-08-2016, 03:40 AM
Glad Rob finally posted something. It was overdue, because LW3DG has not done a good job of managing expectations. Software can take a lot of time to create. Most of us understand that, and would rather have a solid version, than a rushed, crash and burn. There are two things (just my opinion) that set up the wrong expectations for this release, and they can easily be avoided in the future.
...

I'm not worried about the next version. I think it will be good. Rob is leading in the right direction on that front. I'm just worried about the confused marketing, because if the user base shrinks rather than grows, those of us who want to stick around, may not have that option. There's a lot of competition. It's not a great time to manage expectations poorly. Looking forward to "Lucky, Lightwave 13":lwicon:

Good post, agree with mostly everything. Itīs just that I am still not 100% sure if a new version can meet the seemingly very high expectations around here. I surely hope that it will raise some attention on the other side of the fence. And not only with us "oldtimers" that still hang around anyway...

p.s. regarding names: maybe they should call it Lazarus rather than anything ;-)

cove
08-08-2016, 04:36 AM
Encouraging words by Rob are fine
they have for now soothed our minds.
A picture paints a thousand words
to not show evidence would be absurd.
Just one image would go down well
smoothing the growing negative swell.
So come on Rob show us an image
Show your words are not a mirage.

Oedo 808
08-08-2016, 05:19 AM
snip

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/65028432.jpg



Oh and here's wishing Rob a speedy recovery.

Snosrap
08-08-2016, 06:48 AM
Make them prove their products are worthy, which is not the current case. I and many others have found LW2015.3 to be very worthy.

Spinland
08-08-2016, 07:04 AM
Heh. You guys (I use that as a gender neutral term) are funny. Killing a few minutes waiting for a render to finish and reading these posts with a mixture of morbid curiosity and twisted humor.

"Not my circus, not my monkeys" comes to mind but the LW community is very much my circus so I guess I'm stuck with you lot. :hat:

Thanks for the insights. ;D

robertoortiz
08-08-2016, 08:45 AM
I and many others have found LW2015.3 to be very worthy.
Same here...

gamedesign1
08-08-2016, 11:00 AM
I and many others have found LW2015.3 to be very worthy.

I agree. 2015.3 has been great for me. Yes it has a few things I would like to be improved, but It hasn't stopped me making money and enjoying using it :)

gamedesign1
08-08-2016, 11:16 AM
It must be tricky to know what to show. They might have features they don't want to show at this point and they have already shown rendering videos and buffer export videos. I wonder what they could show that will keep people happy but not give too much away. I am also wondering if the new release will be mainly focussed on catching up with other software or will there be new stuff that other companies will be looking at saying, 'thats a nice tool'. I don't mind either, I'm just interested to know :)

jwiede
08-08-2016, 11:25 AM
Rob kinda did i would say...
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?150949-2-ads-with-Lightwave-Cows-and-Octopus&p=1477849&viewfull=1#post1477849

Just more of the same vague language, unfortunately.

Been under the knife a fair number of times myself, esp. after the SCI (and related), and it's never "fun". I hope you have a swift and uneventful recovery, Rob.

Spinland
08-08-2016, 11:37 AM
Not really, "the situation" is just more of the same vague avoidance language.

"I certainly ackknowlege and share your frustration about this and will do my very best to improve the situation."

You forgot the rest of the statement. What more do you want?

spherical
08-08-2016, 12:22 PM
1. You decided to copy Autodesk, and slap a YEAR on the thing instead of the VERSION number! Once you call it 2015, you imply a yearly release. You also repel potential new customers, who won't buy your software in an "off year", like 2016, as they wait for you to "get current".

Not exactly. Citing a few examples: Visual Studio skips a lot of year numbers, as does SQL Server, Office and others not M$ related that will come to mind as soon as I hit "Send" :)

hrgiger
08-08-2016, 12:26 PM
A date doesnt imply yearly releases, it tells when the software was released give or take a few months. If people are repelled by nothing more then the name, well, theyre dumb.

jwiede
08-08-2016, 12:36 PM
"I certainly ackknowlege and share your frustration about this and will do my very best to improve the situation."

You forgot the rest of the statement. What more do you want?

It isn't any more of an acknowledgement than the prior one, contrary to what Erikals suggested. "The situation", as Rob puts it, didn't just happen, it was the foreseeable outcome of months of willfully-decided non-communication, after a LW3DG rep posted an (unchallenged) statement that a release was imminent. Yet it's being described using language that intentionally fails to take any responsibility for either "the situation" as it stands, or any of the decisions which led to it.

What do I want? At the least, I'd like to see an explicit acknowledgement from an LW3DG rep that the months of intentional non-communication following the (deliberate, premature) release announcement were a mistake, along with some indication of a commitment on how they intend behave differently in the future (in a measurable sense).

Spinland
08-08-2016, 01:05 PM
Heh. Okay, sure. Don't buy that interpretation for an instant but everyone has an opinion.

SBowie
08-08-2016, 02:28 PM
...following the (deliberate, premature) release announcement ...I don't watch LW goings-on as closely as some, so forgive me for asking: Did I miss an explicit (or overly-optimistic) release announcement somewhere?

hrgiger
08-08-2016, 02:29 PM
I don't watch LW goings-on as closely as some, so forgive me for asking: Did I miss an explicit (or overly-optimistic) release announcement somewhere?

No, you didn't.

BokadCastle
08-08-2016, 03:01 PM
What do I want? At the least, I'd like to see an explicit acknowledgement from an LW3DG rep that the months of intentional non-communication following the (deliberate, premature) release announcement were a mistake, along with some indication of a commitment on how they intend behave differently in the future (in a measurable sense).

Yes I agree...so +1 from me.
LW3DG have previous form with the CORE debacle.
I'm wary of all this silence, followed by a mealy-mouthed nothing statement.

Dillon
08-08-2016, 03:42 PM
Yeah. This.

I know Rob is recovering from surgery, and is probably under the influence of drugs as a part of recovery (speedy recovery, Rob!), but as someone who's been particupating in this forum, and lived through several fiascos where communicated had been dropped, and users irate because of lack of communication ... my heart is breaking all over again that this is happening yet again.

When the blog started up, they communicated that a new era of openness and communication was starting, and that we should see new information dribble out until the release of Next.

Then, after their announcement that the release was imminent ... months ago ... and then dropping to total silence. This does a lot to destroy trust that was built.

Rather than apologize for dropping the ball on this, how about an apology, fessing up to not following through on your own self stated obligation, and dropping the veil of silence to communicate to the users still standing by you?

The ongoing silence, and this one stray message from Rob, snuck into an obscure post, does little to raise confidence or bank of the little trust that remains.

Wish it wasn't this way, NewTek. :(


It isn't any more of an acknowledgement than the prior one, contrary to what Erikals suggested. "The situation", as Rob puts it, didn't just happen, it was the foreseeable outcome of months of willfully-decided non-communication, after a LW3DG rep posted an (unchallenged) statement that a release was imminent. Yet it's being described using language that intentionally fails to take any responsibility for either "the situation" as it stands, or any of the decisions which led to it.

What do I want? At the least, I'd like to see an explicit acknowledgement from an LW3DG rep that the months of intentional non-communication following the (deliberate, premature) release announcement were a mistake, along with some indication of a commitment on how they intend behave differently in the future (in a measurable sense).

Surrealist.
08-08-2016, 04:17 PM
Speaking of the new rendering and multitude of other enhancements coming, I have some projects coming up I'd love to have a look at at least the rendering on this new puppy and take that for a spin. After working with Renderman it is real hard to come back to LightWave. Nice as it is. It is overdue for a more modern approach.

jeric_synergy
08-08-2016, 06:03 PM
It must be tricky to know what to show. They might have features they don't want to show at this point and they have already shown rendering videos and buffer export videos. I wonder what they could show that will keep people happy but not give too much away. I am also wondering if the new release will be mainly focussed on catching up with other software or will there be new stuff that other companies will be looking at saying, 'thats a nice tool'. I don't mind either, I'm just interested to know :)
We actually already addressed the concept of "things we talk about that have zero impact on competitiveness".

Since I'm obsessed with UI over rendering, for example, LWG could talk about new UI practices and tools, if they exist. It's pretty unlikely that they managed to pull one over the entire CGI industry and revolutionize user interaction. Are they using Qt? What are their influences? etc, there are literally dozens of things they could talk about and not give away the store, while reminding us that they remember we're out here.

Heck, they could talk about "challenges"-- everybody's got 'em. Which ones are they concerned about? They need tell us nothing about their plans, just what concerns them. Etc.

OR, probably smarter, they could repudiate the blog as a bad idea, say "Sorry!", and get it off their back.

gamedesign1
08-08-2016, 06:26 PM
We actually already addressed the concept of "things we talk about that have zero impact on competitiveness".

Since I'm obsessed with UI over rendering, for example, LWG could talk about new UI practices and tools, if they exist. It's pretty unlikely that they managed to pull one over the entire CGI industry and revolutionize user interaction. Are they using Qt? What are their influences? etc, there are literally dozens of things they could talk about and not give away the store, while reminding us that they remember we're out here.

Heck, they could talk about "challenges"-- everybody's got 'em. Which ones are they concerned about? They need tell us nothing about their plans, just what concerns them. Etc.

OR, probably smarter, they could repudiate the blog as a bad idea, say "Sorry!", and get it off their back.

I agree it would be great to hear about development challenges. From a software dev background I would love to hear about how the LW team tackle coding problems.

I have always loved behind the scenes stuff, like when they show in the behind the scenes documentaries how they get round technical challenges with special effects. It's all really interesting :)

Norka
08-08-2016, 06:44 PM
I don't want to get beat up for this (really), but I personally would be just fine with LW3DG never touching the native engine again -- and making Octane the official render engine -- since we are on the cusp of virtually everything being supported in Octane. I have not used LW's native render in over 18 months, and that was just to bang out a couple HV animations. I would much rather see LW3DG focus on every other part of LW, stay competitive, and not waste scarce resources on an engine that, imho, could never compete with Octane's (or most any other unbiased GPU engine). Edit: and it does look like CPUs are going to be supported in the not-too-distant-future.

*runs for cover*

jeric_synergy
08-08-2016, 07:05 PM
I don't want to get beat up for this (really), but I personally would be just fine with LW3DG never touching the native engine again -- and making Octane the official render engine -- since we are on the cusp of virtually everything being supported in Octane. I have not used LW's native render in over 18 months, and that was just to bang out a couple HV animations. I would much rather see LW3DG focus on every other part of LW, stay competitive, and not waste scarce resources on an engine that, imho, could never compete with Octane's (or most any other unbiased GPU engine). Edit: and it does look like CPUs are going to be supported in the not-too-distant-future.

*runs for cover*

+1. Seems like a very difficult thing that other people are covering adequately, and we have a usable solution already in place.

Surrealist.
08-08-2016, 07:35 PM
I think it is a valid point that holds merit, completely. Up to a point.

Right now I am sitting here trying to sort out a render solution across more than one machine. And most 3P render software give you a limited number of nodes or you need to purchase more. Not sure how it works with Octane, but it is an issue with most render solutions. I am not talking about a large farm. I am just talking about having a small network set up in your house to give you extra render power. Right now I have 4-5 machines I can use to render with. Renderman is cheap but still if you are struggling, what do you do? Adding a 3rd Party render is great. But having a native one can have large pay-offs in simplicity of workflow and saving you cash.

If the LightWave native render comes out and supports all features off the bat - which it should - then upgrade for 295 or whatever your situation is and bobs your uncle you have a new LightWave and a new modern render solution ready for your small farm without laying out loads of cash.

It is something to consider.

As far as LightWave's render, well I think the point made makes itself. If you are going to an external solution something is wrong here. And additionally, not everyone can afford one. And this is the long standing hallmark of LightWave. One stop shop does it all. And probably the best thing it had going in the past is the render solution. But that is the past.

Then there is the other argument. So may other software do all of the other things so well. Why compete with that? In the past the answer was simple. Why bother when you can offer them all a great render solution. I think it would be easier to compete with rendering than it would be to try and go head to head with Maya or Houdini.

But a solution that covers those other areas reasonably well and also gives you rendering, and much better handling or mesh data, puts LightWave back on the map. And brings all those other people who are already using other solutions back to LightWave as an addition to the pipeline. And that is where it has always done well.

In my opinion of course. :)

Exclaim
08-08-2016, 08:55 PM
If anything, octane should be an additional rendering solution, not a replacement. Same story with people wanting just any difference in the software no matter how small a change. I personally wish they weren't wasting so much time trying to join modeler and layout. Money would be better spent buffing layout in terms of SFX. Most of the complaints sound like people want LW3DG to become Autodesk.

Surrealist.
08-08-2016, 10:40 PM
Well they aren't wasting any time with that now. Not from recent reports anyway. The two will be separated for some time to come. They are mostly rebuilding the code in Layout so a modern workflow can be nested there as well as improving mesh performance. It just so happens that a) doing this also allows them to eventually build tools there for modeling and painting and all of the other things we need for a better modern workflow, and b) working to make that happen affects all of the areas equally from rendering to SFX.

jwiede
08-08-2016, 10:50 PM
No, you didn't.

Are you denying the "imminent" posting happened?

Prince Charming
08-08-2016, 11:44 PM
If anything, octane should be an additional rendering solution, not a replacement. Same story with people wanting just any difference in the software no matter how small a change. I personally wish they weren't wasting so much time trying to join modeler and layout. Money would be better spent buffing layout in terms of SFX. Most of the complaints sound like people want LW3DG to become Autodesk.

I would settle for undo's and vertex map painting. Is that too Autodesk for ya? Problem is... if you want better SFX the ability to create geometry on the fly and proceduraly is an important feature. That is one of the reasons why Houdini is so good at it. Your post kinda sounds like it comes from a lw3d group shill. Not saying you are, but I get the feeling your wish will be their next path of development once they fail at unification again. It will be made to sound like a good thing... just as you made it sound. Even though it wont be...

hrgiger
08-09-2016, 02:44 AM
Are you denying the "imminent" posting happened?

Well yes, when did anyone from LW3DG say the release was imminent? In the last blog post, Lino said they were moving closer to release but I don't recall anyone saying a release was imminent. Apologies if I completely missed it but other wise share a link.

Surrealist.
08-09-2016, 02:54 AM
No. To my recollection no one said a release was eminent. They never even hinted at a time frame other than the longer range plans in a general way. There was never any promise that the Blog was leading up to a release. So any ideas that it was supposed to be are just made up ideas. If anything the blog was a response to us asking for information and we got plenty of that. I agree that stopping it was not good. But I also think we all have a good deal of information telling us where LightWave is headed.

bobakabob
08-09-2016, 03:25 AM
I don't recall a LW3DG post using the word "imminent" either and read the forum daily.

It's been pretty clear from the blog posts on forthcoming features, this is a big step in LW's development and isn't going to happen overnight. There should be no rush to release as no-one wants an app full of bugs.

Surrealist.
08-09-2016, 04:36 AM
lol yeah it is not coming famously either.... sorry for the typo.

But well I am sure they are moving along famously.

Anyway, I can understand people's frustration with not hearing anything. But we all agree we'd like to hear something more.

It is kind of like this. The majority of the people want a major change to come to LightWave I think.

But that comes at a price. This is not just a normal development cycle. You can't compare it to other things. Maybe the Blender overhaul a few years ago. If memory servers it took a couple of years. And then they started reaping the benefit. And now they are getting ready to do it again to replace a large part of the code holding some of the animation tools back.

Stuff like this takes time. I think they LW 3D group will have something very proud to release and the LightWave community is going to be all over it. Some of us have waited a long long long time to see this come to pass.

But as Rob says, this is only the beginning. So that is what we should expect.

Spinland
08-09-2016, 04:46 AM
Anyway, I can understand people's frustration with not hearing anything.

Honestly? Not frustrated in the least. No, I'm neither a fanboi nor a shill; I'm just too busy with life and making a living to spend quality time fretting over something I don't have. LW as is serves just fine in the niche it occupies in my lifestyle. If it gets better at some point? Kewl, I'm all in. Until then, who cares? Okay: obviously a lot of people here, but I don't get it.

My hard earned money to NT earned me only one entitlement: the right to a license to use the software as per the EULA. Some tech support after the fact would also be nice but, other than that? Zip. Nada. Stuff that'd be nice to have, but to which I am certainly not entitled.

Wickedpup
08-09-2016, 07:03 AM
Posted in blog in March:

"Forgive the delay in new blog posts but as we move closer to release it requires some increased focus on development, marketing, sales, and related details but finally we have a new blog post for you."

Of course there could have been some other posts in the threads that are lost when the forum went down that I don't know of.
However, how one decides to interpret that statement probably depends on goodwill, which some individuals here seem to have abundance of (a neverending supply by the looks of it :D) . For me, 5 MONTHS later, I can only say that it reads as business as usual the Newtek way. So I agree with Jwiede

SBowie
08-09-2016, 07:25 AM
Fwiw, I can count the number of members I've banned in the last 5 years on the fingers of one hand, which should be pretty obvious by the complete drivel a few regularly post here more or less unfettered ...Well, I've reluctantly found it necessary another finger to the count (please do not engage in discussion about which one). As a point of interest, I don't think I've ever seen such a chorus of calls for a ban. I suppose that's the sort of achievement our late lamented friend can cling to.

pinkmouse
08-09-2016, 07:34 AM
Thanks Steve.

DogBoy
08-09-2016, 07:49 AM
Posted in blog in March:

"Forgive the delay in new blog posts but as we move closer to release it requires some increased focus on development, marketing, sales, and related details but finally we have a new blog post for you."

Of course there could have been some other posts in the threads that are lost when the forum went down that I don't know of.
However, how one decides to interpret that statement probably depends on goodwill, which some individuals here seem to have abundance of (a neverending supply by the looks of it :D) . For me, 5 MONTHS later, I can only say that it reads as business as usual the Newtek way. So I agree with Jwiede

How you interpret it is "At this point of time, as we move towards a release on our new version, we will require more focus on..." It means that when they wrote it they felt the were moving ahead well. But it was kept vague enough that they couldn't be pinned down to a timeframe.

What has happened in that intervening time, who knows? Possibly there was a hiccough in the road that set them back. If so, they aren't going to say that, are they?
Maybe they felt there was room to add a couple of things (they do seem to like adding features to stuff, judging by their point releases) and that has added more testing time, or possible instability in other areas. Again, who knows?

The main fact is that what you quoted, was written in good faith at the time.

Spinland
08-09-2016, 08:17 AM
...goodwill, which some individuals here seem to have abundance of (a neverending supply by the looks of it :D)

For my part I credit life, liberty and the pursuit of good craft beer. :beerchug:

bobakabob
08-09-2016, 10:23 AM
Posted in blog in March:

"Forgive the delay in new blog posts but as we move closer to release it requires some increased focus on development, marketing, sales, and related details but finally we have a new blog post for you."

Of course there could have been some other posts in the threads that are lost when the forum went down that I don't know of.
However, how one decides to interpret that statement probably depends on goodwill, which some individuals here seem to have abundance of (a neverending supply by the looks of it :D) . For me, 5 MONTHS later, I can only say that it reads as business as usual the Newtek way. So I agree with Jwiede

This is software. That doesn't read as "imminent" release...

Spinland
08-09-2016, 10:30 AM
Are you denying the "imminent" posting happened?

Not going to deny, only state I never saw such a thing so it's that magical time known as present evidence. If such a post was made then I'll have learned something.

nez
08-09-2016, 11:03 AM
My thought in any case is that they were building the blog and the expectation towards Siggraph events schedule, wich doesn't mean they would be "in situ" but use the timing in lightwave's profit, being it the "All things CGI" time. Ok. They didn't felt it wasn't the right time yet so they delayed, wich created a hole in the marketing move and everyone goes apeshit in the forums, calling names and things like that.

Now that I've made my unfounded and creative hipothesys I have to say that a launch delay for a software only means that they're putting love and effort into it, like the artist that doesn't want to deliver/finish a piece because it has many things to fix yet. I prefer that, because the great marketing is only made with a good software and the art people make of it.

Showing is always a choice, delivering is mandatory. So they try to deliver.

Prince Charming
08-09-2016, 01:27 PM
Posted in blog in March:

"Forgive the delay in new blog posts but as we move closer to release it requires some increased focus on development, marketing, sales, and related details but finally we have a new blog post for you."

Of course there could have been some other posts in the threads that are lost when the forum went down that I don't know of.
However, how one decides to interpret that statement probably depends on goodwill, which some individuals here seem to have abundance of (a neverending supply by the looks of it :D) . For me, 5 MONTHS later, I can only say that it reads as business as usual the Newtek way. So I agree with Jwiede

As do I... This is the same behaviour we have dealt with many times before. They announce a new product to sell something and then dont release said product for a year (if at all). It is bad business ethics, and a never ending supply of "good will" is exactly what these people have... If thats what you want to call it... I have another name for it.

jwiede
08-09-2016, 03:03 PM
Well yes, when did anyone from LW3DG say the release was imminent? In the last blog post, Lino said they were moving closer to release but I don't recall anyone saying a release was imminent. Apologies if I completely missed it but other wise share a link.

The actual post is lost from here along with a ton of related discussion, I even stated as much a day or two after they brought the forum back up. I have screenshots of second-hand references to it in June (by myself) but realize that won't satisfy y'all. I know what I saw, and the fact that I explicitly quoted it weeks later without any visible challenges (there wasn't) strikes me as a highly improbable set of events if the post hadn't actually occurred.

If you chose to believe I'm making it all up, so be it. I know what my record is here on honesty, as well as providing supporting evidence.

Anyway, I'm hopping on a plane for Redmond in a couple hours for a couple days of meetings, so won't be able to spend time on this until this weekend. Google's cache still has a LOT of the missing thread content around, just need to figure out the right cross-link URLs.

hrgiger
08-09-2016, 04:08 PM
Even if it was said (which I doubt as I read the forums regularly enough and trust me if such a statement had been made, it would have also been mentioned on Skype and discussed endlessly), how many years has NT made the statement that all statements they make are subject to change?

And I wasn't challenging your honesty John, just suggesting you may not be recalling it correctly.

Prince Charming
08-09-2016, 04:29 PM
how many years has NT made the statement that all statements they make are subject to change?

Yeah, they said that with core and lw 9 as well, but does it make the situation any more forgivable from a customers point of view? I suppose to some it does, and others it doesn't. I guess it comes down to how you expect to be treated from a company that you give your hard earned money to.

That being said... I want to say here publicly... If by some miracle of the 3d gods lw3dg puts vertex map painting in this release I will take back every bad thing I have ever said about them, and publicly post a youtube vid of me praying to a shrine of Rob Powers.:angel:

Chuck
08-09-2016, 04:38 PM
... I want to say here publicly... If by some miracle of the 3d gods lw3dg puts vertex map painting in this release I will take back every bad thing I have ever said about them, and publicly post a youtube vid of me praying to a shrine of Rob Powers.:angel:

I wonder if I still have any pull with the engineers. I really wanna see that youtube vid. :devil:

Prince Charming
08-09-2016, 04:53 PM
I wonder if I still have any pull with the engineers. I really wanna see that youtube vid. :devil:

I will do it gladly... I went to catholic school for 12 years. So I know how its done...
In nomine Powers, et lw3dg, et spiritus Newtek... AMEN ;)

js33
08-09-2016, 05:00 PM
Well, I've reluctantly found it necessary another finger to the count (please do not engage in discussion about which one). As a point of interest, I don't think I've ever seen such a chorus of calls for a ban. I suppose that's the sort of achievement our late lamented friend can cling to.

I suggested he should edit "that" post but he didn't want to so as I said he has to live with the bad karma.

hrgiger
08-10-2016, 02:45 AM
I wonder if I still have any pull with the engineers. I really wanna see that youtube vid. :devil:

lol. I would like to see that as well. But only because I enjoy talking to Bryphi and would like to see him stick around.

erikals
08-10-2016, 10:24 AM
I wonder if I still have any pull with the engineers. I really wanna see that youtube vid. :devil:

+15 for weightpaint in Layout

ernesttx
08-17-2016, 11:57 AM
I know why it's taking so long to LW Next to come out - it seems there is a time distortion around the LW group. Rob posted this on 08-05-2016:

We are working on an update blog post in the near future so keep an eye out for that.

"in the near future" is defined as: Very soon, within a short time. For example, We'll be needing a new car in the near future . This term employs near in the sense of “close at hand,” a usage dating from about 1300. - The American HeritageŪ Idioms Dictionary

So, 12 days out from the post is not within the "near future" in the LW time continuum. So that means LW Next won't be released "in the near future". You will need to multiply time expectiations by a factor of 12. /snarky :P I kid.

Wireframex
08-18-2016, 10:50 AM
Maybe there is something not wrong --> It will be available in the 21st century ;)

Dan Ritchie
08-18-2016, 02:13 PM
Didn't 2015 come out around end of September last year.

ncr100
08-18-2016, 06:55 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LightWave_3D#History
December 30, 2010, LightWave 10
February 20, 2012, LightWave 11
January 31, 2013, LightWave 11.5
June 14, 2013, LightWave 11.5.1
November 1, 2013, LightWave 11.6
November 24, 2014, Lightwave 2015
December 12, 2014, Lightwave 2015.1 (http://static.lightwave3d.com/downloads/installers/lightwave_2015/lightwave_2015-1_change-log_20141222.txt)
February 23, 2015, Lightwave 2015.2 (http://static.lightwave3d.com/downloads/installers/lightwave_2015/lightwave_2015-2_change-log_20150223.txt)
August 9, 2015, Lightwave 2015.3 (http://static.lightwave3d.com/downloads/installers/lightwave_2015/lightwave_2015-3_change-log_20150809.txt)

Not that dates, and software development progress, have very much to do with each other!

erikals
08-18-2016, 07:41 PM
Christmas it is!   http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/icon_biggrin.gif

ncr100
08-23-2016, 06:09 PM
http://i.imgur.com/9GU5FD8.gif

sami
08-24-2016, 12:31 AM
It's 2016. How anyone can not wonder about how a business can exist without shipping an upgrade in such a long long time. I find it hard to believe there is a full-time employed, on-site group of developers and testers that have been working on LW all this time.

Has anyone heard of agile? Continuous delivery?? Seriously. getting value in front of customers quickly is essential to the life of a company/division that soley relies on software sales for income. Has LW been selling seats enough since the last release spike in sales to support a team of devs to work all this time? Common sense is that devs are part-time or contractual, working from home and just brought in occasionally. This is a tough beast to crack without funding. We are far enough along in the decline of LW popularity that tricaster or other divisions are likely not still funding/subsidising it. The team's hands are surely tied with little budget and lack of co-location (which really is necessary for dev of this sort to shine). It is good IP though, so you wouldnt want to kill the product (or sell it if there are no takers with such an old codebase, low industry uptake, and no major revolutionary features) - So what to do when your baby is just limping along, but still has a dwindling but rabidly excitable fanbase??

Maybe take a lesson from BF Skinner in random reward operant conditioning? :-)

https://techcrunch.com/2012/03/25/want-to-hook-your-users-drive-them-crazy/

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