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Amerelium
08-04-2016, 01:06 AM
Can you tell me what version of LW after 11.0 renders the fastest, with identical settings?

I am doing a render that will take about 3 months to finish, using 11.0, and might upgrade IF there are worth while performance gains to be had.

(non-interpol. radiosity, 1-8 antialiasing)



..also, I doing it on a 4x4,5 GHz Devil's Canyon CPU - how much gain would I aprox. get by going for a mid-range Xeon? Getting a 10x2,2 GHz does not seem like a significant upgrade, at least not hertz for hertz.

magiclight
08-04-2016, 01:53 AM
I don't think you will see any extreme differences between versions, the renderer is pretty much the same, I am sure there are improvements but nothing huge.

Don't look at just GHz too much, it's not that important, many cores are always good, lots of ram and a big chunky set of L1/L2/L3 caches are more important, LW spend most of it's time reading/writing ram with some FP instructions here and there, when it comes to cores, if you can find one with one FP for each core that would be good but I think most modern CPU's share FP units between at least 2 cores, but I am not sure it's that important either because so much time is spent reading memory (faster RAM is always a good thing also but still a bit expensive).

The LW renderer is pretty much linear when it comes to threads, so you can multiply the number of cores with the frequency to get a good indication of performance of the renderer**

** = I am not so sure about the GI pass though if that use multiple threads.

js33
08-04-2016, 01:56 AM
If your render is going to take 3 months you might consider using a render farm service.

Amerelium
08-04-2016, 02:07 AM
Hobby project - ain't gonna spend that kind of cash.

MarcusM
08-04-2016, 02:54 AM
Use GI Cache ;]

BeeVee
08-04-2016, 04:12 AM
11.6.3 has significant advantages over 11.0 including material nodes, Genoma, loads of bugs corrected, software licensing rather than using the dongle, light clamping (speeds up rendering by cutting off lights when they reach an insignificant contribution but still add to render time). There's raycasting, flocking and many other new things, but it's true they probably don't help with render speed. That said, you will almost certainly get a benefit over previous versions and fewer crashes slowing down your workflow. Best of all, upgrading to 11.6.3 - the latest in the 11 series - will cost you nothing.

B

gamedesign1
08-04-2016, 05:00 AM
If your render is going to take 3 months you might consider using a render farm service.

I agree, i use RebusFarm and they are great. You get a plugin so you can render straight from Lightwave.

Amerelium
08-04-2016, 05:07 AM
Hmm, I recon if I update I should restart the sequence - previous experience have shown me the end result do not look identical between versions.

If I kill lights that are no longer affecting the scene during the render sequence, do still think render times will be faster in 11.6.3?


11.6.3 has significant advantages over 11.0 including material nodes, Genoma, loads of bugs corrected, software licensing rather than using the dongle, light clamping (speeds up rendering by cutting off lights when they reach an insignificant contribution but still add to render time). There's raycasting, flocking and many other new things, but it's true they probably don't help with render speed. That said, you will almost certainly get a benefit over previous versions and fewer crashes slowing down your workflow. Best of all, upgrading to 11.6.3 - the latest in the 11 series - will cost you nothing.

B

inkpen3d
08-04-2016, 05:16 AM
How many frames are you rendering and at what resolution?

Before you do anything else, I would seriously consider optimising the hell out of your models/textures/scenes to reduce render times! There are plenty of threads on this forum that deal with that topic (best use Google to search the forums using the format "site:forums.newtek.com <your search string>" as the forum search engine sucks).

Also, do as Ben suggests and upgrade.

Regards,
Peter

Amerelium
08-04-2016, 05:32 AM
1080 resolution, main sequence is 1968 frames. About 350 frames in as of now.

I've done plenty of fine-tuning past 6 months to get the result I want, all that is left is removing objects and lights as they become irrelevant.

All I am after here is a comparison of render times between versions after 11.0

BeeVee
08-04-2016, 05:37 AM
I don't have 11.0 installed any more - it did come out 20 Feb 2012 - but if you pick a scene from the LightWave content I don't mind reinstalling 11 and 11.6.3 to compare render times? I'll have to dig out one of my dongles for 11.0 since it only supports a dongled licence.

B

Amerelium
08-04-2016, 06:09 AM
...yeah, recon I can do a test once the current sequence is done I a couple of days.



I don't have 11.0 installed any more - it did come out 20 Feb 2012 - but if you pick a scene from the LightWave content I don't mind reinstalling 11 and 11.6.3 to compare render times? I'll have to dig out one of my dongles for 11.0 since it only supports a dongled licence.

B

roboman
08-04-2016, 08:52 AM
Well if you are thinking about getting another computer, two would get it done in 45 days. If you have a few friends who have an extra computer... Probably not great computers that they wold loan you, but it might get it further down to 35 days. I've got a bunch of older computers. They may only be 10% as fast as the new one, but if I use 3 of them it turns a 10 day render job into one that takes just over 7.

inkpen3d
08-04-2016, 09:06 AM
Or if you use GarageFarm (http://garagefarm.net/en/pricing/calculator) then the cost would be, using their Low Priority option, ~$650 and take ~28 hours on 60 nodes! Possibly cheaper than getting another (new) computer and all the hassle of setting it up.

vonpietro
08-04-2016, 09:54 AM
if your going to render for 3 months - consider buying a render machine at the very least - you can get a cheap one for about $800 bucks with 12 cores. --
it will greatly speed up your rendering - but unlike render farm - you get to use it on your next project too =)

Amerelium
08-04-2016, 10:54 AM
...you need 32 gigs of RAM just to open the scene, no any old computer won't do ;)

How's the 2015 version stacking up? - I've seen comments that it actually renders slower then the 11 versions.


Well if you are thinking about getting another computer, two would get it done in 45 days. If you have a few friends who have an extra computer... Probably not great computers that they wold loan you, but it might get it further down to 35 days. I've got a bunch of older computers. They may only be 10% as fast as the new one, but if I use 3 of them it turns a 10 day render job into one that takes just over 7.

jwiede
08-04-2016, 11:13 AM
LW 2015's importance sampling can significantly reduce the number of rays needed to generate a clean render (compared to non-IS renders), but the scale of improvement depends on precisely how lighting and GI are set up in your scene, use of HDRIs for IBL, and similar details. Care to describe a bit about how scene lighting and GI are structured?

Amerelium
08-04-2016, 01:10 PM
It's a flyover / though over the Culture GSV Sleeper Service - 90 km long, about a hundred smaller ships inside its field enclosure, about two dozen light sources (One main), roughtly 20M polygons.

Sequence is running from outside fields to inside appartment in ship, so have to compromise setup for inside / outside enviroment, meaning no special tricks that help in special circumstances (fnarr fnarr (in-Culture joke)). No HDR lighting, but domes, spots, areas and spheres. No-interpolated radiosity, 2 bounces, 96 rays. 1-8 sample anti-aliasing, 0,01 theshold. Any more AA / radiocity and I'd be rendering for years; Culture warships have reflective surfaces, and radiosity REALLY takes a hit on AA times one I get close to the Sleeper itself.

I've probably shot myself in the foot a bit; there's about 9M individual windows, and I've placed them all in ledges, so there's a lot af AA close by. What surprised me is how much radiosity affects the AA times - if I turn it off in the most intense areas render time goes from 3 hours per frame to 5 minutes. But it's how I want it to look.

By the way, I was already 95% done with the whole thing, but I discovered something I wanted to change and started over again a couple of weeks ago - LOL

js33
08-04-2016, 09:25 PM
One approach you can take is break the scene up into layers of different elements with alpha channels and composite together in AE. That way you can isolate the elements that take longer to render and optimize them better without affecting other elements. Also if one piece comes out wrong you can just rerender that part without having to redo everything.

Amerelium
08-05-2016, 10:21 AM
...well, just did a test on my B computer: v11.0 = 720 sec, v11.6.3 = 722,5 sec

So there you go...

jeric_synergy
08-05-2016, 11:21 AM
One approach you can take is break the scene up into layers of different elements with alpha channels and composite together in AE. That way you can isolate the elements that take longer to render and optimize them better without affecting other elements. Also if one piece comes out wrong you can just rerender that part without having to redo everything.
I'm wondering exactly how to do that in 360 stereo (over/under). Perhaps I'm overthinking it. Maybe it's like any other comp.

js33
08-06-2016, 12:42 AM
I'm wondering exactly how to do that in 360 stereo (over/under). Perhaps I'm overthinking it. Maybe it's like any other comp.

I'm not sure as I've never done any 360 animation for VR. I think Nuke can edit 360 footage.

jeric_synergy
08-06-2016, 01:04 AM
For me 360 synthetic scenes will tend to have a rather static camera- it's an environment, the camera just sits there, the viewer can look where they like. This leads to long renders and the inevitable "DARN, this could really use X here...."

Hopefully comping in something will be not much different than doing it in 2d. The STEREO aspect may complicate matters a bit....

js33
08-06-2016, 01:40 AM
Yeah I should look into VR rendering as they say that will be the next big thing.

OFF
08-06-2016, 03:31 AM
Little render speedup trick:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNNDbJcwkOg

Amerelium
08-06-2016, 10:01 AM
Well, whilst updating to 11.6.3 did nothing in terms render times, I took a close look at the effects of caustics in the scene, and decided to kill it. At some points in the sequence that reduces the render timea with more than a third (!).

I cannot see any difference on the output (and I've got a lot of transparent and reflective stuff) so I don't know why the render spends that amount of time on it. But all good for me in any event...

js33
08-06-2016, 03:27 PM
Caustics, reflections and transparency can really slow down the render. I would usually kill caustics unless you really need it like for an underwater shot or glass in the sun but otherwise I never use it.

tcoursey
08-08-2016, 07:27 AM
Best to download and test your system and then compare to others that have done the same. You will get a very good apples to apples comparrison and they have nearly all configurations of CPU's out there. Also check out GPU side of things. https://www.cpubenchmark.net/

Good luck to you.

inkpen3d
08-08-2016, 08:31 AM
It's a flyover / though over the Culture GSV Sleeper Service...

Yay - another Iain M Banks fan!

Looking forward to seeing the final version of your animation.

Bank's death was a tragic loss of one of the UK's greatest authors, and he might still have been with us today if his GP had been more on the ball and recognised the early symptoms of gallbladder cancer!

Amerelium
08-09-2016, 04:35 AM
Member of the FB group? (The Culture by Iain M Banks)



Yay - another Iain M Banks fan!

Looking forward to seeing the final version of your animation.

Bank's death was a tragic loss of one of the UK's greatest authors, and he might still have been with us today if his GP had been more on the ball and recognised the early symptoms of gallbladder cancer!

inkpen3d
08-09-2016, 04:49 AM
Member of the FB group? (The Culture by Iain M Banks)

FB Group - not sure what you are referring to there? Please enlighten me.

I have every single book that Iain Banks ever published (both SF and non-SF) and cycle through them every few years or whenever I get severe Banks withdrawal symptoms. ;)

Amerelium
08-11-2016, 12:11 AM
Biggest M. Banks group on Facebook - called 'The Culture by Iain M. Banks'

Quite active.



FB Group - not sure what you are referring to there? Please enlighten me.

I have every single book that Iain Banks ever published (both SF and non-SF) and cycle through them every few years or whenever I get severe Banks withdrawal symptoms. ;)

BeeVee
08-11-2016, 02:07 AM
When Iain died I spent about a year rereading his whole canon: https://beevee-notes.blogspot.fr/2014/11/iain-m-banks-reread.html. I have several signed first editions of his work both SF and contemporary, but I don't do Facebook (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36854292)...

B

zapper1998
08-11-2016, 03:09 AM
How about using Octane to render it??

inkpen3d
08-11-2016, 03:36 AM
Biggest M. Banks group on Facebook - called 'The Culture by Iain M. Banks'

Quite active.

Aha. Of course! [Slaps forehead] Brain wasn't in gear as usual.

inkpen3d
08-11-2016, 03:45 AM
When Iain died I spent about a year rereading his whole canon: https://beevee-notes.blogspot.fr/2014/11/iain-m-banks-reread.html. I have several signed first editions of his work both SF and contemporary, but I don't do Facebook (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36854292)...

B

That was quite a marathon read you did there Ben!

Yes, saw that BBC article when it first came out the other day - just reinforces my inclination to close down my own FB account. [Hey, look, I've used the FB abbreviation!]

Regards,
Peter

OFF
08-11-2016, 03:50 AM
Kray3 VPR demo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X67y_WoOaKA

BeeVee
08-11-2016, 05:42 AM
That was quite a marathon read you did there Ben!

Yes, saw that BBC article when it first came out the other day - just reinforces my inclination to close down my own FB account. [Hey, look, I've used the FB abbreviation!]


I didn't read anything else while I was going back through with two exceptions. I read "Robopocalypse" (which is great) and "Inventing the Future: Postcapitalism and a World Without Work" (a good read if a little dry)

As for FB I closed my account when I saw that anything I posted there would belong to Facebook about five years ago...

B

Amerelium
08-13-2016, 03:05 AM
...well, done some more heavy duty testing, and it turns out 11.6.3 is quite a bit slower than 11.0.

So going back to older version again.

And here's the kicker: Installed a m.2 SSD drive as system disk, and THAT slows down renders as well, not to mention that windows thinks I'm running out of memory in layout as well, when total system load is 19 out of 32 gigs.

Who was is again that said progress is a good thing..?

spherical
08-14-2016, 09:25 PM
And here's the kicker: Installed a m.2 SSD drive as system disk, and THAT slows down renders as well, not to mention that windows thinks I'm running out of memory in layout as well, when total system load is 19 out of 32 gigs.

That doesn't ring true. How/where are your swap and scratch disks set?

Amerelium
08-23-2016, 04:22 AM
I don't use scratch discs - I disable that feature. M.2s do take half of the GPU lanes, but didn't think that would affect the CPU, not when idle at least.

I did extensive testing in any event, and all was back to normal once I removed it from the system.

SSDs messing up the memory handling is something quite a few others have experienced as well, according to the net at least..

Amerelium
09-25-2016, 04:09 PM
https://vimeo.com/184041325