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GThomas
08-02-2016, 02:24 PM
Has anyone tried using 1 Tricaster to act as the sort of headend that sends all camera signals back to a centralized control room for a sports broadcast? We currently use a Mini to produce different sports broadcasts of games, but are looking to build a control room. Would it be practical to buy a second Tricaster to convert the cameras to IP to send to the main building on campus where our other Tricaster produces the actual show?

kanep
08-02-2016, 03:22 PM
I've been speaking with colleges and some sport conferences about this, part of the answer depends on what are overall needs are.

You can use multiple TriCaster like you mention and this is a good solution if overall needs call for multiple TriCaster available for times you might have multiple events going on.

If all you need is just inputs, then you might want to look at getting NewTek Connect Pro and building a system with a supported capture card (like a BMD, Matrox or Magewell card) that you can setup at the head end and send all the NDI feeds back to your control room.

GThomas
08-02-2016, 08:20 PM
i've considered that, as we really only need it for inputs/outputs. I'm basically looking for a way to take the Tricaster out of the pressbox and set it up in a classroom so it can just pull cameras over the existing network between the pressbox and the building. My concern with building our own box with Connect Pro is reliability. What kind of specs would you need on a computer to effectively push 3 cameras to the Tricaster and receive 1 stream back at the pressbox for our PXP people? I just feel like the Tricaster is better designed for that, but maybe I'm wrong.

Radio_TVPat1982
08-03-2016, 06:12 AM
Hi Gabe and Kane. I am also interested in this! I did some testing recently at our local high school. We were able to connect cameras from the field and have them sent back to the control room in the press box through NDI. My next test will be to hook the cameras up at the basketball gym, run them on to the network and then back to the football press box. Then finally, across town at a another county school on the same network.

All this sounds great in theory but I am really waiting on someone to come up with a communication solution that works off NDI. For me, without communications in place having those clean camera signals mean nothing. I have also not tested a remote location program monitor but I am confident that work great just by the post some others have left. I still believe NDI is the future and school setting are the perfect place for it to benefit the most.

PIZAZZ
08-03-2016, 09:12 AM
It all depends really on your network structure. If you are on a large campus with multiple network sections then you might run into challenges. If your campus IT folks can put you on a dedicated subnet and/or VLAN then it will definitely make things easier.

As far as comms over IP, that is super easy and actually rather affordable now. VCOM or Unity Intercom are the two versions we use and sell. VCOM gives you a true Matrix style setup that is amazingly powerful. Unity gives you a more traditional PL (PartyLine) but with 6 separate channels.

My favorite by far though is a hardware based approach via Dante beltpacks from Studio Technologies. The beltpacks are available in 2 channel or 4 channel versions. A little more expensive than a ClearCom or RTS beltpack but WAY more flexible. Sounds better in my opinion too. We just installed a system with these beltpacks and a Dante equipped Soundcraft Expression. The ability to put anything anywhere into anyone's ears is just amazing. Used the StudioTechnologies 214 announcer stations over Dante too. Awesome setup.

Sorry I got off track on this thread...


GThomas, a TriCaster mini would hands down be the best bet for you to do what you are wanting to do. Compact, Robust, and completely capable. We have been doing exactly the same thing on several of our production events.

GThomas
08-03-2016, 09:12 AM
Glad it seems to be working well for you. I'd love to hear from you when you are able to test it in the basketball gym, as going over our school's network would be our only choice. Thankfully, they've run fiber to a switch in the pressbox.

We've never had communications capabilities, so I guess it's not crucial for us, but we would like to see some NDI comms as well. My thought would be to turn to Dante audio for comms. Not sure if anyone here has tried that, but maybe some of the belt packs from Studio Technologies would work.

EDIT: PIZAZZ beat me to the Studio Technologies stuff :-)

PIZAZZ
08-03-2016, 09:15 AM
We've never had communications capabilities, so I guess it's not crucial for us, but we would like to see some NDI comms as well. My thought would be to turn to Dante audio for comms. Not sure if anyone here has tried that, but maybe some of the belt packs from Studio Technologies would work.

See above... They definitely work.

GThomas
08-03-2016, 09:16 AM
Two questions for you, Jef.

1. What acts as the sort of "hub" of your Dante intercom? Is there a base station, per say, or do you just route everything through your mixer? (IE: How does one create different "channels" of Dante intercom?).

2. Any reason you would suggest a TC mini over a custom built computer with Connect Pro?

PIZAZZ
08-03-2016, 09:35 AM
Two questions for you, Jef.

1. What acts as the sort of "hub" of your Dante intercom? Is there a base station, per say, or do you just route everything through your mixer? (IE: How does one create different "channels" of Dante intercom?).

I will give you the basics how we have it setup for our production arm doing live sporting events.
All the beltpacks and annc boxes attach to the deployed fiber and cat5 based network.

You use the Dante Controller to do all the crosspoint patches from device to device. To create the "Partyline" where everyone can listen and talk on Channel 1 we use one of the 14 aux mixes from the SoundCraft Expression via Dante. We can then add in the Annc Talkback, nat microphones, PGM audio, anything we want into CH 1. We also have just PGM audio piped into CH2 so if the beltpack user wants to control how much PGM audio he hears he just turns up or down CH2's volume knob. CH2 is patchable so if the EIC engineer needs to talk directly to a camera op he can ISO directly to that person and talk privately. With the patching capability of Dante you can have separate audio into the beltpacks Left ear and Right ear. One model 374 is used in Master Control in order to allow the director to iso directly to individual users and/or announcer talent.

I will attach a pic of the Dante Controller layout to hopefully illustrate it a little better for you.
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2. Any reason you would suggest a TC mini over a custom built computer with Connect Pro?

I have tried and failed to find the necessary hardware to build anything as small and compact as the TriCaster mini to do 4 SDI inputs and 2 outputs over NDI. We have a 2U rackmount we have been using to do 4 SDI to NDI input conversions. While cheaper to do than a Mini, it is no where as easy to deploy. If you have a mini or the budget to buy one to use in this situation, go mini.

Radio_TVPat1982
08-03-2016, 11:08 AM
Gabe I will let you know as soon as I test. It actually could be sooner than later. I plan to setup a high endzone shot for football. The closest connection is the field house which is connected to the gym. This is a great example for why I could use comm through NDI. The camera itself will be like 400 to 500 ft away in a straight line but more like 1000ft away if I were to run cable around the press box and out of the way. I just am not going to run that much XLR. I may just have him on a cell connection or something.

I like the Dante option but it is pretty expensive. One benefit to me personally is that NDI makes things easier and cheaper. If it is harder or more expensive I normally look for another option. I am currently using a mobile box by Eartec. Works great for small crew events but not great for larger events or noisy environments. I like the idea of VCOMM but would it require two separate Ethernet lines? I have some catching up to do on the networking audio side.

PIZAZZ
08-03-2016, 11:32 AM
I like the Dante option but it is pretty expensive. One benefit to me personally is that NDI makes things easier and cheaper. If it is harder or more expensive I normally look for another option. I am currently using a mobile box by Eartec. Works great for small crew events but not great for larger events or noisy environments. I like the idea of VCOMM but would it require two separate Ethernet lines? I have some catching up to do on the networking audio side.


No, network is not point to point... Just drop a network switch nearby and add in the devices you need. The StudioTech 370 beltpacks do need PoE (power over ethernet) so that is something to consider. A simple 8 port TPLink gigabit switch with PoE is rather inexpensive. Under $100
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BP0SSAS/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

You run one Cat5 from your network tie in to this switch and then spool off of it the necessary connections to Comms or an NDI machine or whatever.

Keep in mind that with the Dante comms solution there is not a Master Station brain to buy. So while the beltpacks might be a little more than a ClearCom, you will not have the expense of a master station or frame.

GThomas
08-05-2016, 12:39 PM
We don't have a 3 play right now, but if we get one, can it also receive the cameras as an NDI input?

kanep
08-05-2016, 01:18 PM
3PLAY must use the physical inputs for recording replays. The NDI input on Mini, 440 and 4800 models is used for the DSK and is not recorded.

You could build a NewTek Connet Pro system with a quad output SDI card in it, which could function as a NDI to SDI converter to then go into 3PLAY.

GThomas
08-05-2016, 01:48 PM
Kane-

Thanks for the clarification. Can I ask why the 3PLAY doesn't get the same NDI functionality as the Tricaster? It seems to me that it wouldn't be much different than adding them as inputs on the Tricaster, but perhaps I'm wrong.

joseburgos
08-10-2016, 06:35 AM
Has anyone tried using 1 Tricaster to act as the sort of headend that sends all camera signals back to a centralized control room for a sports broadcast? We currently use a Mini to produce different sports broadcasts of games, but are looking to build a control room. Would it be practical to buy a second Tricaster to convert the cameras to IP to send to the main building on campus where our other Tricaster produces the actual show?

A little late but a few weeks ago I did a 12 camera switch with 8 cameras connected to TC860 and four to TC460. I used NDI on TC860 to give me cameras 9-12. It was an RC car race for VW;
VW Rival Road (https://www.facebook.com/BurgosFX/posts/1131664906894901)
Although I did not make any technical test for delay, I, nor no one else, noticed any perceivable delay and if there was, it would have shown as the velocity of the cars associated with the small curving formula style track, would have shown if there was. I mean I was hot punching buttons as fast as I could keep up with the race and it worked great.
Client was super impressed!!!

GThomas
08-10-2016, 07:20 PM
Glad to hear it worked so well for you, Jose. It's really exciting to think we may be able to take our entire campus and build one control room and all we need is an ethernet jack at each venue to pipe everything back to the control room.

John Freedom
08-15-2016, 02:52 PM
Susquehanna University is planning to stream football with NDI.

The plan: one TC-Mini at the stadium and another TC-460 at the studio. NDI between them. TC-460 streams to internet.
Challenge: The two areas are on different subnets. My IT folks are helping but we have not found a solution that works for them "security-wise" and me "video-wise".

- Considered VPN, they don't like that.
- They talked about running fiber but I'm not sure that budget will allow.
- I found this on a Vmix forum. The user wrote a small pgm and installed it on the two Tricaster's (or Vmixes). He was able to get it to work.
Here's the link: http://forums.vmix.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6382

Has anyone tried this with Tricasters??? Does it work?

ffhillcrest
10-20-2016, 01:29 PM
I really love the potential NDI presents for getting video around our campus. I have been looking for years for ways to reduce the need for physical transport of equipment and constant ripping apart of my central video rack. I built a 2 input NDI remote box utilizing the free version of NDI connect and we did our first Football game last night in which we utilized an NDI camera feed. Considering the rather weak network we have between our Activities center and the football pressbox, everything went pretty well. I have a solid HD-SDI capable coax connection out to the pressbox, so I used that for our main camera and used the NDI connect box for a mobile field camera running at 720p and a SD shot of our scoreboard. The scoreboard shot is never used in the program mix, it is just a confidence shot for our CG scoreboard operator. I initially tried both the main and field camera sends over NDI, but I had video and audio hiccups. The network connection to the football pressbox only sustains about 150-170 Mbit throughput which doesn't provide enough bandwidth overhead for 2 HD streams. There were no problems with 1 HD and 1 SD. Hopefully we can run fiber in the near future to remedy this issue. I was also running a SIP softphone application to connect intercom between the 2 locations. Unfortunately there are still a lot of kinks to work out in getting a usable COM and Tally link over this distance.

Overall, I am very pleased with NDI and can think of many more situations in our environment where it will be very useful to have remote inputs. I can't wait to try it for streaming Chapel services.

imryh
10-20-2016, 01:49 PM
Produced our football TV broadcast last week with a mix of SDI and NDI sources. Worked very well!

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Radio_TVPat1982
10-25-2016, 06:37 AM
Imry, that looks awesome! Glad it worked out. I have been reading your post here and on Twitter and I see you have been working very hard to get the most out of NDI at this point.

Can you tell me how you were able to get the individual NDI signals back from each camera to the control room? Did you bring them together on one single unit like a TC Mini or NDI connect or covert them separate?

Also did you run Comm thorough NDI?

imryh
10-25-2016, 10:13 AM
Thanks for the feedback.
We didn't actually use any of our game cameras with NDI. They're not located near any Ethernet drops. They are transmitted on fiber.

Here are all our sources for that game:

Main Switcher (TC8000 AE2) - TV

Camera 1 - SDI over fiber
Camera 2 - SDI over fiber
Camera 3 - SDI over fiber
Camera 4 - SDI over fiber
Camera 5 - SDI over fiber
Telestrator - NDI Telestrator software from NewTek
Camera 7 - NDI (camera output connected to Blackmagic Design Mini Recorder, then Thunderbolt into a Mac running Sienna-TV's NDI Source software)
Camera 8 - SDI over fiber
Replay A - NDI from 3Play 4800
Replay B - NDI from 3Play 4800
Score Bug - NDI from LiveText
Graphics - NDI from LiveText

Secondary Switcher (TC460 AE2) - Video Board

Camera 1 - NDI from Main Switcher Input
Camera 2 - NDI from Main Switcher Input
Camera 3 - NDI from Main Switcher Input
Camera 4 - NDI from Main Switcher Input
Clean PGM - NDI from Main Switcher Output
Graphics - NDI from LiveText
Social Media Panels - NDI from Macbook running Sienna-TV' NDI Scan Converter Lite

Comm was run over Ethernet and XRL, using Clear-Com's LQ system.

I hope this helps.
Happy to answer any additional questions.

Imry

Radio_TVPat1982
10-25-2016, 10:49 AM
That is a really cool and complex setup! Even though you are not using NDI for main game cams you are still doing so much with it.

I'm guessing an immediate advantage is not having to use a DA on things moving from the Newtek product to Newtek product. Like replay or graphics.

When you said comm was run over Ethernet and XLR can you explain how you converted the Ethernet part?

I am thinking for high school basketball season for using NDI to feed my talent cam, clock cam and a wide for graphics. Then using my 4 regular inputs for a game cams.

imryh
10-25-2016, 01:19 PM
We have two Clear-Com partly-line systems set up. A MS-704 in our control room, and a PS-704 in our Stadium.

The control room has XLR cables connecting all positions to its local Clear-Com main station.
The stadium has XLR cables connection all camera, talent and audio locations to its local Clear-Com power station.
The problem is that the Control Room and Stadium are far apart.

So we have a Clear-Com LQ unit in each location. It takes XLR from the main stations and runs it over public IP.
We then configure the two LQ units to link the channels together.

Sounds complicated, but it really does wonders. The control room crew talks with our cameras and talent (over IP) with no delay or issues at all. You wouldn't know that they're not tied in to the same main station using XLR.

(We used to have an older Clear-Com over fiber solution, but it just caused a lot of issues. We replaced it with the LQ units last year and never looked back.)

Radio_TVPat1982
10-25-2016, 02:03 PM
Thanks for that info! I love hearing how other people have come up with solutions like that.

You mentioned Comm over fiber. I once worked for a truck that had comm over fiber and it also had the signal coming back from the cameras. It did not have tally or return to the cameras though. I know it is probably asking a lot for a new technology but I imagine in short time there will be something out there that can do video output (and conversion), comm, tally and return all over NDI. For me, that would signal the real death of both SDI and maybe even Triax.

I remember using a Camplex box back in the SD video days. That small box did a lot. I dont think it carried a return but did send video, power, tally, and comm over a coax cable. Hoping for something like that but in HD.

PGCC-TV
11-22-2017, 12:42 PM
We're a little late to the discussion as we are just starting to experiment with NDI. The Connect Spark looks like a fairly good solution for our most distant cameras at the far ends of the basketball and soccer courts as they are right at the max limit for sending SDI. We use a snake bundled with SDI coax, intercom and audio. The spark will eliminate most of that but not the intercom. SHAME! If intercom could be included in the NDI protocol it would be a real winner. For that reason alone we may forego the purchase of several Sparks as we will still need to run cabling anyway. We might as well insert an inline reclocking amp to allow a little more length of SDI. It's a lot cheaper than the Spark and we'll still have intercom. But...I'm hoping Newtek will consider a way to add intercom in NDI connected Spark. That makes a TOTAL solution. Oh, and battery packs for the Spark, too.

PIZAZZ
11-22-2017, 01:24 PM
We're a little late to the discussion as we are just starting to experiment with NDI. The Connect Spark looks like a fairly good solution for our most distant cameras at the far ends of the basketball and soccer courts as they are right at the max limit for sending SDI. We use a snake bundled with SDI coax, intercom and audio. The spark will eliminate most of that but not the intercom. SHAME! If intercom could be included in the NDI protocol it would be a real winner. For that reason alone we may forego the purchase of several Sparks as we will still need to run cabling anyway. We might as well insert an inline reclocking amp to allow a little more length of SDI. It's a lot cheaper than the Spark and we'll still have intercom. But...I'm hoping Newtek will consider a way to add intercom in NDI connected Spark. That makes a TOTAL solution. Oh, and battery packs for the Spark, too.

People really forget that NDI is just a protocol sitting on top of the IP network. It can carry additional data yes but it is not the one all be all solution. If you are using NDI then you are connected to your network. You could already be using one of several IP based comms solutions out there. Comms in the end are just audio channels anyway right?? The power of a true comms setup is the ability to route audio or "patches" from here to there. Using existing AOIP (audio over IP) solutions like Dante gives you all that and more. Drop a Studio Technologies 370 beltpack at the camera position with either a separate Cat5 cable back to your switch or drop a switch at the camera position and run a single copper or fiber line back to the master control area. Bing Bang Boom, done.

If you want a complete all in box that does NDI, Comms, Tally, and Video Return then they exist. I know because we use them. We also developed them :)
http://www.pizazz.com/ndi-solutions/

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rrubin
01-24-2018, 10:56 PM
Hi Gabe,

Mobile Studios just released the SparkMount which enables a NewTek Connect Spark to be mounted on any video camera. Checkout this case study video on YouTube about how PineCrest School is using a TC1 with SparkConnects on battery powered Connect Sparks to broadcast live high school sports over WiFi directly to their control room. https://youtu.be/rm4P66wLtNQ

For more info about the Mobile Studios SparkMount kits -- see www.MobileStudios.com/sparkmounts.php

Camera based wireless NDI-HX production to TC1s is a real game changer!

Regards,

Rich Rubin
Mobile Studios

livepad
01-25-2018, 11:27 AM
Has anyone tried using 1 Tricaster to act as the sort of headend that sends all camera signals back to a centralized control room for a sports broadcast? We currently use a Mini to produce different sports broadcasts of games, but are looking to build a control room. Would it be practical to buy a second Tricaster to convert the cameras to IP to send to the main building on campus where our other Tricaster produces the actual show?

Take a look at this blog post (http://www.sienna-tv.com/ndi/ndicloudblog.html)for USSSA sports running on Sienna Cloud for NDI (https://www.ndi.cloud/secure.html)

http://www.sienna-tv.com/ndi/images/e8b8a153-001d-4af9-84ed-3ecb99e347a0.png?crc=3879111923