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samurai_x
07-25-2016, 11:07 PM
Arnold, not mental ray, now installed by as the default render engine :beerchug:

http://www.cgchannel.com/2016/07/autodesk-unveils-maya-2017/

RebelHill
07-25-2016, 11:29 PM
"While it’s still possible to use mental ray, that now means buying licences of the new plugin version directly from Nvidia: the update breaks compatibility with the old integrated versions of the render engine.

Instead, Arnold is now installed with Maya by default, although as a fairly limited version: it doesn’t support batch rendering, and single frames or interactive sequences of frames render with a watermark.

To remove the watermark, you’ll need to buy Arnold batch render nodes, prices for which start at $790."

Im sure everyone's gonna LOVE that.

js33
07-25-2016, 11:40 PM
So Maya 2017 ships with NO NATIVE RENDERER and only a demo of Arnold. Sounds VERY lame.

Chris S. (Fez)
07-26-2016, 12:52 AM
"....To remove the watermark, you’ll need to buy Arnold batch render nodes, prices for which start at $790."

Im sure everyone's gonna LOVE that.

Heh. Yup. Eager to see how the LW 2017 render engine compares. While it may not quite match the quality and performance of dedicated 3rd party renderers like Vray and Arnold, Lightwave's unlimited render nodes will hopefully more than make up the gap. The lack of subpixel displacement is a bit of an issue but hopefully that will be addressed down the line.

50one
07-26-2016, 02:00 AM
So Maya 2017 ships with NO NATIVE RENDERER and only a demo of Arnold. Sounds VERY lame.

Yeah and LW ships with no Undo lol.
It's not a demo.
i'm glad to see the MR being kicked out.

Niko3D
07-26-2016, 03:01 AM
...it's funny to see that in only two/three months they make also the plug for 3dsMax as well...but for LW it is always still...

https://www.solidangle.com/arnold/arnold-for-3dsmax/

bobakabob
07-26-2016, 03:26 AM
Maya without a proper renderer installed... Good opportunity for Lightwave to boost sales?

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Yeah and LW ships with no Undo lol.
It's not a demo.
i'm glad to see the MR being kicked out.

Why glad... ? It's a pretty good renderer...

pinkmouse
07-26-2016, 03:32 AM
Maya without a proper renderer installed... Good opportunity for Lightwave to boost sales?

Possibly, for small studios. Can't see it making much difference to the big boys. Of course, that rather relies on LW3DG actually doing some marketing, so I'm not holding my breath. ;)

bobakabob
07-26-2016, 03:37 AM
Yep, that's what I meant, small studios and agree totally... LW marketing should go into overdrive with the release of the new renderer :)

50one
07-26-2016, 03:41 AM
Maya without a proper renderer installed... Good opportunity for Lightwave to boost sales?

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Why glad... ? It's a pretty good renderer...

and Mini is a fantastic car, each to their own I guess;)

Si

Chris S. (Fez)
07-26-2016, 04:22 AM
Eh. Arnold doesn't work with Maya batch renderer unless you purchase an additional node. The Max version is not even included in the default Max install.

Bring on Lightwave 2017. Lando-mode: "Come on baby, don't let me down!"

js33
07-26-2016, 04:36 AM
Yeah and LW ships with no Undo lol.
It's not a demo.
i'm glad to see the MR being kicked out.

Read below. Sounds like a demo to me. Frames render with a watermark. To remove the watermark, you’ll need to buy Arnold batch render nodes, prices for which start at $790.

While it’s still possible to use mental ray, that now means buying licences of the new plugin version directly from Nvidia: the update breaks compatibility with the old integrated versions of the render engine.

Instead, Arnold is now installed with Maya by default, although as a fairly limited version: it doesn’t support batch rendering, and single frames or interactive sequences of frames render with a watermark.

To remove the watermark, you’ll need to buy Arnold batch render nodes, prices for which start at $790.

bobakabob
07-26-2016, 05:04 AM
Renderman has been positioning itself as an alternative for Maya with free non commercial and edu version but ofc comes at at a price for pro use.

50one
07-26-2016, 07:29 AM
Read below. Sounds like a demo to me. Frames render with a watermark. To remove the watermark, you’ll need to buy Arnold batch render nodes, prices for which start at $790.

While it’s still possible to use mental ray, that now means buying licences of the new plugin version directly from Nvidia: the update breaks compatibility with the old integrated versions of the render engine.

Instead, Arnold is now installed with Maya by default, although as a fairly limited version: it doesn’t support batch rendering, and single frames or interactive sequences of frames render with a watermark.

To remove the watermark, you’ll need to buy Arnold batch render nodes, prices for which start at $790.



This local version of Arnold for Maya only works interactively within Maya. You can render a single frame or a sequence of frames interactively; however, batch rendering and calling from mayabatch.exe are not available and your images will appear with a watermark. To render images without a watermark, purchase Arnold batch render nodes from Solid Angle."

Demo? Nope.
Full-featured? Kinda.

jasonwestmas
07-26-2016, 10:38 AM
Good! I can't stand Mental Ray anymore.

toeknee
07-26-2016, 11:19 AM
just out of couriosity has anyone made it to the LW Booth yet. I am very supprised there is nothing on there web site front page about siggraph.

50one
07-26-2016, 11:34 AM
just out of couriosity has anyone made it to the LW Booth yet. I am very supprised there is nothing on there web site front page about siggraph.

Is there any Lw presence at Siggraph?

:stumped:

ncr100
07-26-2016, 11:36 AM
Could the LW renderer be driven by Maya? Would there be any value to this?

toeknee
07-26-2016, 12:19 PM
OK I found my answer. No they are not at Siggraph. I hope they say something today somewhere.

Chernoby
07-26-2016, 12:19 PM
God I hate Maya. I have to teach it and hopefully my disdain for Autodesk is soaked up by my students.

Mental Ray I can't stand but the Arnold demo and no native renderer for 2017 is definitely an "emperor has no clothes" moment I think. They are obviously making a deliberate attempt to distinguish themselves from all indie production and dev.

toeknee
07-26-2016, 12:21 PM
You know auto desk is a very arrogant bunch. It doesn't surprise me at all.

jasonwestmas
07-26-2016, 12:24 PM
You know auto desk is a very arrogant bunch. It doesn't surprise me at all.

They never laugh at my jokes. Never! :)

toeknee
07-26-2016, 12:40 PM
I think there best joke is the name autodesk media and entertainment. That just be littles our whole industry.

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it reminds me of the joke 'what do engineers use for birth control............. there personalities.

jwiede
07-26-2016, 01:56 PM
and no native renderer for 2017

There IS a native renderer (Arnold) provided, and it works fine in "interactive mode". The included Arnold simply doesn't operate in standalone/batch mode without batch node purchase(s).

It seems like some folks here have some odd notions about the options Autodesk had in this situation, given the GAAP* constraints present. Their solution of how to include Arnold licenses with Maya is actually quite creative, and pretty reasonable, IMO. The other option would have likely been them having to pass on the cost of a full Arnold license into the existing Maya subscription cost (minus whatever MR license cost was embeded, if any). The days of corporations being able to buy a company with operating revenue streams, and then just include its product "for free" in their own products are long gone -- GAAP provisions on protecting investment value saw to that.

*: To be clear, I absolutely support the use of GAAP. I just also recognize that its application makes situations like these a lot more complex than they used to be.

bobakabob
07-26-2016, 01:59 PM
Could the LW renderer be driven by Maya? Would there be any value to this?

Yes, easily, you do your animations in Maya, export FBX or Alembic and apply Maya Geocache files in LW.

You have the advantage of VPR, LW nodal surfacing and Lightwave's beautiful renders.

Chris S. (Fez)
07-26-2016, 02:29 PM
No native renderer...makes makes me appreciate Max. The new integrated Max PBR ART renderer is no Corona but still capable. The scanline Max renderer was already blazingly fast and is now much faster in 2017.

Lightwave's renderer and nodal surfacing is still vastly underestimated. Same with the Shader Tree for that matter. I'd much rather surface and render in Lightwave or Modo.

bobakabob
07-26-2016, 02:40 PM
There is the integral renderer... but you might as well take OGL screen grabs :-0

jwiede
07-26-2016, 09:31 PM
There is the integral renderer... but you might as well take OGL screen grabs :-0

Or just use Maya 2017's included Arnold in (watermark-free) foreground rendering mode.

js33
07-26-2016, 09:48 PM
Can you render an image sequence in "foreground" mode? Is it like rendering in Lightwave where it ties up the program rather than network rendering. I read somewhere that it puts a watermark on everything but I guess you can render stills and an image sequence on one machine where it takes over the program. Is that correct? Would you still be able to send files to a render farm service without a watermark?

lardbros
07-26-2016, 11:26 PM
There IS a native renderer (Arnold) provided, and it works fine in "interactive mode". The included Arnold simply doesn't operate in standalone/batch mode without batch node purchase(s).

It seems like some folks here have some odd notions about the options Autodesk had in this situation, given the GAAP* constraints present. Their solution of how to include Arnold licenses with Maya is actually quite creative, and pretty reasonable, IMO. The other option would have likely been them having to pass on the cost of a full Arnold license into the existing Maya subscription cost (minus whatever MR license cost was embeded, if any). The days of corporations being able to buy a company with operating revenue streams, and then just include its product "for free" in their own products are long gone -- GAAP provisions on protecting investment value saw to that.

*: To be clear, I absolutely support the use of GAAP. I just also recognize that its application makes situations like these a lot more complex than they used to be.

Not sure I'd use the word "creative" to describe what they've done.

They've actually gone from offering mental ray, with unlimited render nodes, to Arnold, with a watermark.
I don't think it means LW is able to capitalise just yet, but this does seem like a greedy move from Autodesk. As usual, the people who use Maya and Arnold for production probably won't even bat an eyelid, so Autodesk will make more money. Probably good business sense. As a speaker from MPC said today at Siggraph, said today, they are unable to move away from Maya as it's so heavily ingrained in their studio pipeline. He sounded like he would if he could though.

graviel
07-27-2016, 12:46 AM
I have been hit hard in the past by both acquisitions, Softimage and Maya. An incredible waste. This just confirms I did the right thing leaving that boat.
Appart from their monopolistic lack of empathy towards the lifetime userbase of their products, they are the big neglector. Maya's internal renderer has been neglected, integrating all the new features just in MR, not even subdivision geometry. Dropping now MR is a big buahaha..
Maya's Dependency graph was not given any care till very very recently, neglected since the advent of multicore processing. Shame, shame.

I think it is time for other softwares to put some effort and make rigging and animation at the level of Maya so we dont ever miss again that thing.

Happy with Lightwave-Houdini and bits of Modo. Just waiting a new replacement for Messiah Studio.

erikals
07-27-2016, 01:42 PM
Just waiting a new replacement for Messiah Studio.
RHiggit!   ?

Surrealist.
07-27-2016, 01:48 PM
As far as I understand you can still DL and install MR for Maya 2017. As of 2016 they separated it from the install. Probably in anticipation of this.

http://help.autodesk.com/view/MAYAUL/2017/ENU/?guid=GUID-86BDB101-2547-4E8B-9824-597EE20E4826


mental ray no longer provided with Maya

In Maya 2017, mental ray is no longer provided with Maya. To render scenes that contain mental ray nodes, download the mayatomr plug-in from the NVIDIA web site.

Mentalray has been a separate DL since 2016 and if you are upgrading to 2017 likely you have it installed already.

That is how I understand it.

Anyway, I don't see this as that big of an issue all around. MR is not all that great. So likely you are going to use Arnold or Vray or better even, Renderman 21 which is looking amazing.

Cool thing is out of the box you get a top notch rendering solution for previews and so on. So I don't know. It does force the trial version of Arnold on you. But hey, is that not a good thing for Solid Angle?

Really people so worried about the acquisition, this turns out to be a good thing for them. More sales, more backing form a large corp to develop it. Better fit to compete on a very tough market. As of Maya 2017 this is a huge boost for them.

js33
07-27-2016, 08:32 PM
If one purchases a render node of Arnold but you stop renting Maya you still own Arnold but can't use it. Hehehe.

samurai_x
07-27-2016, 08:51 PM
If newtek were smart they would develop lightwave's renderer into a thirdparty 999 node render plugin for max, maya.
They would make more money than selling lightwave itself.

chikega
07-27-2016, 09:13 PM
And then there is a free license of Guerrilla (http://guerillarender.com) Renderer ... only one node. But can be used for commercial purposes. :D

jasonwestmas
07-27-2016, 09:49 PM
If one purchases a render node of Arnold but you stop renting Maya you still own Arnold but can't use it. Hehehe.

Don't do that, that would be dumb.

js33
07-27-2016, 10:04 PM
Don't do that, that would be dumb.

Yeah just pointing out that you have to buy Arnold but are forced to rent Maya. So your purchase of Arnold is only good as long as you keep renting Maya.

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If newtek were smart they would develop lightwave's renderer into a thirdparty 999 node render plugin for max, maya.
They would make more money than selling lightwave itself.

Yes that would be a good idea for income purposes and would give them more money to develop Lightwave.

jasonwestmas
07-28-2016, 08:34 AM
Yeah just pointing out that you have to buy Arnold but are forced to rent Maya. So your purchase of Arnold is only good as long as you keep renting Maya.



Right! In which case I would probably RENT Arnold (and not buy a computer locked license) if I planned on stopping maya usage in the future.

I do think it would be more advantageous for the industry in general if companies were more like Redshift. What they do is give you a computer locked license, but allow you to use that license with any 3D application that can use the Redshift plugin.

js33
07-28-2016, 01:37 PM
I don't know if you can rent Arnold yet. But as Autodesk acquired them they can do what ever they want with it.

jasonwestmas
07-28-2016, 02:23 PM
Atm, anyone can rent Arnold from here: https://www.solidangle.com/arnold/buy/

Surrealist.
08-01-2016, 10:42 PM
Actually I had some confusion on this that just got cleared up. There is a new setting in Maya 2017 for Render Sequence. Previously if you wanted to render a sequence of animations you had to use the Batch Render option. So currently the restriction is only for Batch Render which you'd use only if you were doing distributed rendering. And for the record, while Mental Ray Licenses may have been unlimited, you could only network render with up to 5 nodes but only with a Network render license of Maya which cost extra.

So for most people doing every day work in Maya Arnold is the default render solution. Pretty flippin' cool. And it is "Free"! You can render stills or a sequence of stills for animation just like you would with Mental Ray in the past (using batch render) with no watermark.

So as far as distributed rendering nodes, that is pretty much on a par with most rendering solutions except LightWave. So that is nothing new.

I am not sure why they worded it the way they did but people seemed to have picked up the completely wrong idea across the net that there is no usable renderer in Maya now. There is. Arnold. Not too shabby in my opinion.

Rendered out a sequence just now. No watermark. Pretty cool.

js33
08-02-2016, 12:51 AM
The wording upon the release of 2017 was confusing. I read at first all renders contained a watermark. Then I read you could only render stills and previews without a watermark. Then I read you could render animations directly in Maya without a watermark but it ties up the program. Batch rendering gives you the watermark unless you purchase a render node for $800.

jasonwestmas
08-02-2016, 10:10 AM
Actually I had some confusion on this that just got cleared up. There is a new setting in Maya 2017 for Render Sequence. Previously if you wanted to render a sequence of animations you had to use the Batch Render option. So currently the restriction is only for Batch Render which you'd use only if you were doing distributed rendering. And for the record, while Mental Ray Licenses may have been unlimited, you could only network render with up to 5 nodes but only with a Network render license of Maya which cost extra.

So for most people doing every day work in Maya Arnold is the default render solution. Pretty flippin' cool. And it is "Free"! You can render stills or a sequence of stills for animation just like you would with Mental Ray in the past (using batch render) with no watermark.

So as far as distributed rendering nodes, that is pretty much on a par with most rendering solutions except LightWave. So that is nothing new.

I am not sure why they worded it the way they did but people seemed to have picked up the completely wrong idea across the net that there is no usable renderer in Maya now. There is. Arnold. Not too shabby in my opinion.

Rendered out a sequence just now. No watermark. Pretty cool.

Great to hear Richard! Thanks.

50one
08-02-2016, 10:47 AM
I've got tired of waiting and after playing for a while with C4D i decided to go back to Maya, will leave Modo/LW for very specialised tasks but gonna wait until There's enough info about 2017 before I'll consider upgrading.

TheLexx
08-02-2016, 11:00 AM
I've got tired of waiting and after playing for a while with C4D i decided to go back to Maya, will leave Modo/LW for very specialised tasks but gonna wait until There's enough info about 2017 before I'll consider upgrading.Was that for character animation ? Were the differences extensive for you ?

Roque
08-02-2016, 11:25 AM
what was the problem with C4D?

50one
08-02-2016, 11:57 AM
what was the problem with C4D?

No problem really, I have used Arnold in the past and having it included now is great thing and number one why I went that route.

I'm not a CA person so can't speak about that but it was more i teroperability issues, all the companies I work with are Autodesk centric (laser scanning and such, Cad) and just one place doing mograph that use c4D.

If not the above I would go c4d route.

erikals
08-02-2016, 01:01 PM
i read in a C4D forum that a lot of C4D users are leaving it in anger. Can't recall why.

not sure if that's an empty threat or not.

...if only i could find that link...

prometheus
08-02-2016, 01:25 PM
i read in a C4D forum that a lot of C4D users are leaving it in anger. Can't recall why.

not sure if that's an empty threat or not.

...if only i could find that link...

If speculationg..sounds more like it would be a subscription issue and not irritation about the software or itīs feature or development itself?

souzou
08-02-2016, 01:47 PM
i read in a C4D forum that a lot of C4D users are leaving it in anger. Can't recall why.

not sure if that's an empty threat or not.

...if only i could find that link...

Lack of development in needed areas (viewport performance, bodypaint, etc) compared to cost of subscription/upgrades is the big bugbear I think. Houdini and Maya offer more complete solutions.

erikals
08-02-2016, 01:52 PM
i think it was a post from the Nigel guy...
could be this one...
http://www.c4dcafe.com/ipb/forums/topic/88386-so-what-happens-to-the-cafe-when-nigel-dumps-c4d

Surrealist.
08-02-2016, 01:59 PM
Great to hear Richard! Thanks.

You're welcome. And while I am waiting for Renderman 21 to come to NC I am going to go ahead and learn Arnold. I love the concept so far. I have never really been impressed with Vray so for me it is a toss up between Arnold and Renderman and this will give me a good chance to compare them. I am already fairly familiar with Renderman 20, but there are some new features coming out I want to check out in 21.

One thing that impressed me so far was that Arnold is reminding me what I liked about Messiah rendering look ...lol go figure. ;)

jasonwestmas
08-02-2016, 06:51 PM
One thing that impressed me so far was that Arnold is reminding me what I liked about Messiah rendering look ...lol go figure. ;)

Just started to take a closer look. I like the simplicity of Arnold's AA and lighting. Reminds me a lot of using Fprime but without the crashes and limitations. Even looks a little similar, but with better lighting of course. Must be the brute force montecarlo algorithm.

The Arnold render view is a dream too, now that really cooks, kicks the snot out of vray RT.

The al shaders do show some resemblance to the messiah shaders, no doubt. Very sexy stuff.

Surrealist.
08-02-2016, 07:08 PM
Indeed. As far as rendering out of the box, best thing that has happened to any app in a long time. That with a lot of other improvements, Maya is really starting to shape up nicely. Think I am going to like working with Arnold. :)

samurai_x
08-02-2016, 10:26 PM
God I hate Maya. I have to teach it and hopefully my disdain for Autodesk is soaked up by my students.


But they will realize that autodesk xyz is THE software to use after they finish school love it or hate it.
Even pros in modo land are realizing this http://community.thefoundry.co.uk/discussion/topic.aspx?f=4&t=124758

MichaelT
08-03-2016, 05:56 AM
I wrote a long economical essay.. before realizing nobody cares :) To put it short instead. Get Maya subscription, some plugins, and Houdini indie subscription instead. You'll still have money to eat out :)
You can hate Maya all you want.. it is still an industry standard. If your students are planning on wide possibilities in their career, this is the tool they need to know.

Marander
08-03-2016, 07:52 AM
i read in a C4D forum that a lot of C4D users are leaving it in anger. Can't recall why.

not sure if that's an empty threat or not.

...if only i could find that link...

Only hearsay...

There is one guy (Nigel who has done alot of C4D tutorials before) who left C4D for Modo because he felt not taken seriously in the beta program and the workflow issues he complained about (mainly bodypaint / uv mapping) were not corrected in R17. Bodypaint update is announced for free within the R18 cycle.

Around here almost all graphic studios are using C4D and all I hear are happy users.

samurai_x
08-03-2016, 08:37 AM
Only hearsay...

There is one guy (Nigel who has done alot of C4D tutorials before) who left C4D for Modo because he felt not taken seriously in the beta program and the workflow issues he complained about (mainly bodypaint / uv mapping) were not corrected in R17. Bodypaint update is announced for free within the R18 cycle.

Around here almost all graphic studios are using C4D and all I hear are happy users.


Wow really? C4d is so expensive.
I have a 400+ page listing of studios in tokyo which is a small fraction of studios currently operating in japan.
900+ studios in the list and lightwave has 40+ studios using it. I think that's not bad compared to fewer modo, c4d studios and zero blender studios. The rest of the 800+ studios in the directory are using Autodesk.

https://i.imgsafe.org/202ae1b98d.jpg

Newtek needs to stop developing the lightwave renderer. Many don't want to go out of their main app just to render so it won't really attract them to render in lightwave. Vray is unstoppable. It works direcly like native renderer so Arnold will probably be used, but will not replace vray anytime soon.

Marander
08-03-2016, 09:08 AM
Wow really? C4d is so expensive.
I have a 400+ page listing of studios in tokyo which is a small fraction of studios currently operating in japan.
900+ studios in the list and lightwave has 40+ studios using it. I think that's not bad compared to fewer modo, c4d studios and zero blender studios. The rest of the 800+ studios in the directory are using Autodesk.

Hey Samurai

Thanks, this is a very interesting insight! Yes, Vray is used alot here too (got myself VrayforC4D and I'm very pleased).

Cheers, Michael

Asticles
08-03-2016, 09:12 AM
Hi,

I think the render improvement is something that has to be done, almost every software is going to a physical native render, so this must be done to don't be left behind.

Also, for freelancers that cannot afford max, c4d or such, Lightwave as a bundle solution should be good. (With addition of blender for UV, because I hate UV's on LW).

After that, the path must be carefully planned, and this is a good question to discuss.

Regards

S0nny
08-03-2016, 11:15 AM
I don't know, Maya, Arnold, everything looks nice and all, but the subscription model, expecially at those prices, is not really something that many freelancer I know could easily afford, realistically speaking. At least not today and not in Italy where, if you are lucky, you'll see your payment after months (not days, not weeks) you delivered the project.
Having this kind of duty is really challenging for those who are not in big productions or affiliated with big studios. And don't forget the other costs from 3rd parties like vray etc!

Now, I don't want to appear naive, but it's not the 90's or 2000 anymore, where Maya was like 16.000$ or something, but you could make real money with that. In the last 10 years the prices of the license have dropped in pair with the cost of the jobs. And guess what, the subscription model comes just in handy as a way to finally squeeze more (and more) money again, but your work will cost the same or even less. Autodesk and Adobe are corporations afterall, right? But the same trend is happening in every app store since quite some time now for the small developers also. Sadly it's the same business model as the arcade coin-op from the 80's era.

Problem is, they don't want your money once, they want it forever, at full price, which IMHO is the shady approach. If you make big money the subscription is probably a win-win, but if you are like the guy who makes 20 or 30.000$/year, a 2k$ subscription is like 10%, every year. And it's just for one software.

Point is: with all his defects and limitations LW is still the perfect spot for small and medium jobs that needs an all-in-one production tool. Maybe it's just me, but Maya is simply in another league. It's a more oriented tool, and I see it less appealing for the generalist Lw user.

Now I'm just really worried because the lack of news for lw next to me sounds more that they are having big problems, than a marketing mistake. But it's material for another topic...

Asticles
08-03-2016, 12:11 PM
I suspect that in Spain, a majority of freelancers that work in infoarchitecture have never paid for his 3dmax and vray license. With that market, I always have difficulties to find jobs for my blender and recently lightwave workflow.

jasonwestmas
08-03-2016, 12:19 PM
I don't know, Maya, Arnold, everything looks nice and all, but the subscription model, expecially at those prices, is not really something that many freelancer I know could easily afford, realistically speaking. At least not today and not in Italy where, if you are lucky, you'll see your payment after months (not days, not weeks) you delivered the project.
Having this kind of duty is really challenging for those who are not in big productions or affiliated with big studios. And don't forget the other costs from 3rd parties like vray etc!

Now, I don't want to appear naive, but it's not the 90's or 2000 anymore, where Maya was like 16.000$ or something, but you could make real money with that. In the last 10 years the prices of the license have dropped in pair with the cost of the jobs. And guess what, the subscription model comes just in handy as a way to finally squeeze more (and more) money again, but your work will cost the same or even less. Autodesk and Adobe are corporations afterall, right? But the same trend is happening in every app store since quite some time now for the small developers also. Sadly it's the same business model as the arcade coin-op from the 80's era.

Problem is, they don't want your money once, they want it forever, at full price, which IMHO is the shady approach. If you make big money the subscription is probably a win-win, but if you are like the guy who makes 20 or 30.000$/year, a 2k$ subscription is like 10%, every year. And it's just for one software.

Point is: with all his defects and limitations LW is still the perfect spot for small and medium jobs that needs an all-in-one production tool. Maybe it's just me, but Maya is simply in another league. It's a more oriented tool, and I see it less appealing for the generalist Lw user.

Now I'm just really worried because the lack of news for lw next to me sounds more that they are having big problems, than a marketing mistake. But it's material for another topic...

People on these forums say these things but what is the context or big picture here really? If you are working by yourself as a free lancer chances are you aren't doing everything by yourself. So if you aren't doing everything by yourself then why does it have to be any specific software. There are dozens more options today, especially in the realm of rendering, texturing and modeling. And they all work together nicely in a lot of respects so what is the problem about exactly? Rendering workflows? Animation Workflows? Modeling and texturing is pretty much accepted from any application out there.

bobakabob
08-03-2016, 12:52 PM
If Lightwave is marketed effectively once its PBR renderer and faster more responsive Layout are released it could fill a niche in the market.

Unless you're a big studio, making mounds of money from your freelance art, or somehow keeping your accounts well away from your partner, it's hard to justify shelling out for commercial licenses of Maya and C4D. The subscription models are very much aimed at siphoning dough from the big league.

I've worked freelance and teach primarily Maya, important for employability of course, but emphasise transferable skills - aware that students who leave college and uni, many of whom are initially likely to work as freelancers, will realistically be unable to afford the subs of the software they've been trained on. So it's healthy that at the lower end of affordability, LW, Modo and Blender are available to develop freelance business. There's also Maya Lite but it's pretty much tied to games and is expensive for what it is. The good thing is that many young students are astute and adaptable to learning new toolsets.

Lightwave was perceived as the underdog as far back as the 90s and yet is still hanging in there because many freelancers and small animation shops appreciate its strengths as a creative economical solution. Now competition is fierce from Blender chomping at LW's heels so the team need to keep distinguishing and promoting the app as a professional solution. It's a wise decision by the team to keep developing the renderer. And thankfully the animation tools are much improved particularly enhanced by RHiggit and 3rd Powers toolsets

jasonwestmas
08-03-2016, 01:24 PM
I don't quite understand the logic. 3 or 4 licenses of maya or max etc. Is not a big deal. So in the context of a super small studio, you're bidding way too low for too much work if you can't afford a few licenses. But that's all relative opinion and I still have no idea what kind of work you guys do.

S0nny
08-03-2016, 01:45 PM
People on these forums say these things but what is the context or big picture here really? If you are working by yourself as a free lancer chances are you aren't doing everything by yourself. So if you aren't doing everything by yourself then why does it have to be any specific software. There are dozens more options today, especially in the realm of rendering, texturing and modeling. And they all work together nicely in a lot of respects so what is the problem about exactly? Rendering workflows? Animation Workflows? Modeling and texturing is pretty much accepted from any application out there.

It's possible that we have different ideas of freelancing, but I think that one of the key strength is actually to be capable of doing everything by yourself. I can provide so many example of this from direct experience. Simply the client doesn't care of technical stuff or workarounds, they just want something. If you can provide the thing is good for you, and you get the job, otherwise they go to someone else.
That said, in more than many occasions it happens that you need to solve problems, like technical problems, during production, which include modeling extra stuff the client won't provide, re-texturing something, rebuilding uvs, animating something, lightning everything, rendering etc etc. You do everything of this stuff by yourself.
Usually is in the studio which the activity is more fragmented in different task per person, i.e. the video guys, the modeling guys, the texturing guys...
I still have to meet someone who works as freelancer only doing texture or modeling and nothing else, but maybe it's just a different market here.

- - - Updated - - -


I don't quite understand the logic. 3 or 4 licenses of maya or max etc. Is not a big deal. So in the context of a super small studio, you're bidding way too low for too much work if you can't afford a few licenses. But that's all relative opinion and I still have no idea what kind of work you guys do.

TIL: North Carolina is totally different from Italy.

jasonwestmas
08-03-2016, 02:01 PM
Could be a EU UK thing, yeah. I'm able to get some pretty nice deals with software over here. I guess that stuff is harder to find outside of the US.
Doing an entire production by yourself can require a lot of different types of software. But overall costs depends on the style and direction of the production. I suppose that is why Newtek caters to overseas users a lot, it would appear.

S0nny
08-03-2016, 02:36 PM
I agree that it could be an EU thing. Anyway, if we exclude marketing strategy and communication problems Newtek's specific, I think this is why AIO softwares like Lw are still very valuable for the smallest or the individuals, because they covers like 90% of the stuff they need for a small production, even with a certain degree of complexity.

Maybe everybody here working for hollywood or the tv, I don't know, but to my eyes Maya is a very capable and very oriented animation/vfx tool, which capabilities (and prices) suites better the studio with employee logic than the average freelancers. I mean, now it requires even an external render engine to do a simple task like a decent archviz interior, which is a really common job in my league. More specialized than this...

Asticles
08-03-2016, 03:00 PM
3D Max here is 1600 € per year, plus 775€ the vray license. Is a big expense; if you sum it to all the life expenses and freelancing taxes... There are people that offers renders at 10 or 12€/hour and also small studios tend to hire people with "practise" contracts, which makes the standard fee becomes lower.

Surrealist.
08-03-2016, 03:52 PM
Well the thing that the subscription model does do is it allows you to cost things out by the job. I just went into a situation like that recently with a small team. I rented Maya LT and Mudbox extra seats for a few months. Because we did not need Maya full version. But the tools we needed, the time it saved (and that cost savings), was way over and above the cost of the software. You have to include the cost of your labor even if it is you. This is something I see people leave out of the equation all the time.

I think the entire reasoning for software choice has to be, what tools does it have and do those tools save me time? Or do they do a better job that that improves production value? The latter is intangible. Try comparing using Zbrush at its cost to Blender for free. You can not put a price on that. You will sculpt circles around anything in Zbrush than what you can do in Blender. And sure you could make the argument that you put Blender in the hands of the same artist and he will churn out equally as good material. True. But with as much fluidity and flexibility and in the same time frame? Absolutely not.

There are a lot of examples of this. And I run into clients all the time who out of ignorance, have made certain choices about software, and for all the wrong reasons too.

One recent story was a client who wanted to make an international team of Blender artists to work on projects together. All started out altruistic with open source and the company donating to BF etc. I was picked out of the crowd. I accepted. Why not? If you can get work, yeah. Cut to 2 months later and he is trying to bid on a job with fluid effects. Long story short, turns out one of the guys on the team stole the whole job from him because the client only wanted to work with that one artist. Why? Because he was using Houdini. Obviously that is another issue of security as well. But the bottom line is clients are ruthless. They want what they want. And if you can't deliver creatively or technical you loose.

I have quite a few of these stories, all varied. But all to do with wrong decisions about software.

So in my opinion you can dream up all kinds of theoretical and even practical-sounding reasoning for software choice. But where the rubber hits the road is how those choices enhance your ability to deliver faster better results or even if those choices open up to you jobs and income that you would not otherwise have.

And that has been my experience definitely.

Asticles
08-03-2016, 04:06 PM
So are you saying that is always better to be mainstream? Regardless morality and personal preferences?

MichaelT
08-03-2016, 04:19 PM
I much prefer Octane over VRay. I tried it for modo, and far less than stellar experience. Octane on the other hand works great. I also have the full collection from Autodesk, but only because I have to. After a year, I'll drop it. I will use it again, if I have to. But I loathe subscription. I want to own my tools.

Surrealist.
08-03-2016, 06:12 PM
So are you saying that is always better to be mainstream? Regardless morality and personal preferences?

Loaded question. But the simple answer is no. Use the software that works for you in your given situation. Notice that the words "works" and "given situation" are chosen very wisely.

Personal preference where it is wise, yes.

Morals are off topic and forbidden discussion here because they lead into religion and philosophy and goes right into politics and back. So don't even go there.

samurai_x
08-03-2016, 07:41 PM
Usually is in the studio which the activity is more fragmented in different task per person, i.e. the video guys, the modeling guys, the texturing guys...

Not for anyone above entry level. Maybe 10 years ago it was like that. Now everyone needs to multi task. Lots of maya generalists that can do modelling, animation, rendering, compositing now. If you can't its hard to find work the competition level is high.

Surrealist.
08-03-2016, 07:57 PM
True but most of the larger studio work job ads are very segmented into specific tasks. Smaller shops they seem to want you to everything and then some, and be a good sport, a team player, be creative problem solver, take out the trash and in general kiss *** to get a job.

For freelance work that is another matter.

samurai_x
08-03-2016, 08:25 PM
True but most of the larger studio work job ads are very segmented into specific tasks. Smaller shops they seem to want you to everything and then some, and be a good sport, a team player, be creative problem solver, take out the trash and in general kiss *** to get a job.

For freelance work that is another matter.

In tokyo there are more studios that have less than 30 staff. That's considered small-medium. You absolutely need to be a generalist in either maya, max, si, lw.
But even big companies now like Bandai for example only state 3d animator but you actually need to know how to create assets and render. They only segment jobs that are considered totally specialized like game developer, game designer, r&d engineer. If you apply as a 3d animator with only animation as your best skillset, you won't get hired.
Pretty sure that job for Startrek is a generalist position not only for lightwave but they must have maya generalist there, too.

Surrealist.
08-04-2016, 12:34 AM
Yeah the LightWave one is fairly generalist. But they still have the other tasks fairly segmented. I agree a lot of the mid sized studios are that way. But I was just commenting on the job postings I have seen. There is still a predominance of specialty. But if you want to make the statement that things are heading more generalist, yeah for sure. That has been going on for years. I agree there.

S0nny
08-04-2016, 03:43 AM
Well the thing that the subscription model does do is it allows you to cost things out by the job.
...


That's one way to see it, and I basically agree with that. I mean, a monthly fee for a temporary job is perfect, I can see many benefit to do one uber-specialized task just for one short production without the need to buy a full perpetual license. And for sure the right tool for the job is the best choice you can do.
But what I'm saying is that the implementation (to me) reflect more the greed of the usual bigs, than a good deal.

If you work with 3ds Max, which is a rather generalist software than Maya, you are gonna need it probably like, every day of the year? It happens that they just found a new way to ask your money forever. They don't make money from the monthly-one-time-job, they make money because you have to pay constantly in the medium-long term. Again, if you are a studio with a certain annual income it's probably not a big of a deal, but for the others it probably is.

For the cost of one year renthal 3dsmax + vray, which is probably the minimal wannabe generalist starter pack, you can get Lw + Zbrush + Marvelous Designer or Octane, perpetual, and probably have some leftovers. If you work one year you can repay everything and not be worrried to pay again the next year(s). The more I see it, the more I think that Lw and similar are some of the best and reasonable choices than AD products for freelancers or really small studio, which together (but I'm really guessing here) can be more than just a niche market.

On the opposite side, take for example SideFX: they offer a specific Houdini Indie for the small studios with an incoming of less than 100k/year, for 199$/y. Doing the math it's 1/500, I find it more than fair. If you make real money you can pay more, and they charge much more for the full commercial license.

Surrealist.
08-04-2016, 11:34 AM
Yeah do the math. I mean everyone is in a different place financially. My situation fluctuates all the time.

My main point is this. Not all software is created equal. And there are some tools in some software that don't exist elsewhere. If all you do is model and texture, you can just use Blender, LightWave Modo etc. (whatever is your preference) That is how I work it in my pipeline.

There are some tools in Blender that do not exist elsewhere. Thankfully I spent a good deal of time learning it. And how switching over to Blender is painless. Same can be said for Maya. There is nothing that compares to the features you get with nDynamics for characters. LightWave Bullet, Syflex or Syflex on ICE or any other cloth solution I have found comes anything close to that.

But again thankfully I spent time learning it. When the situation arises, I pull out the big guns.

MotionBuilder, same thing. Nothing else compares to those MOCAP editing tools. Not even Maya 2017. But it is getting close, and will probably get there by next release at the rate they are going. But you won't find it anywhere else. Not even close.

So what it boils down to is time and quality of the final product.

From my experience you can spend way too much time and effort trying to use software that was no designed to do a certain task well enough. Your final product suffers and your time is sucked away coming up with workarounds and compromises.

No one would argue that you can do way more with Modo, LigjhtWave or Blender than you can do with say, Sketchup, or Wings 3D.

So why then would you spend hours and weeks or months trying to fight with Sketchup or Wings 3D to do some of the things you can do in a few clicks with other software? That would be insanity of course. Yet people do this all the time using Modo or Blender or LightWave only when there are other software that can do certain tasks a certain way, much faster and much better.

So the sane thing to do is use those tools when the time arises.

And then you can say, well there are certain things I can do in Sketchup that I can't do anywhere else as easily.

Exactly.

And that is why, if you spent time with it you can consider yourself lucky that you have it in your arsenal.

Same would go for LW CAD or any other plugin.

People recognize that to get certain features you have to go with a plugin. And mostly it is worth the price for the time savings and the end product.

Expand that concept out to all of the software available and then you have a good set of tools to tackle anything.

prometheus
08-04-2016, 12:25 PM
Yeah do the math. I mean everyone is in a different place financially. My situation fluctuates all the time.

My main point is this. Not all software is created equal. And there are some tools in some software that don't exist elsewhere. If all you do is model and texture, you can just use Blender, LightWave Modo etc. (whatever is your preference) That is how I work it in my pipeline.

There are some tools in Blender that do not exist elsewhere. Thankfully I spent a good deal of time learning it. And how switching over to Blender is painless. Same can be said for Maya. There is nothing that compares to the features you get with nDynamics for characters. LightWave Bullet, Syflex or Syflex on ICE or any other cloth solution I have found comes anything close to that.

But again thankfully I spent time learning it. When the situation arises, I pull out the big guns.

MotionBuilder, same thing. Nothing else compares to those MOCAP editing tools. Not even Maya 2017. But it is getting close, and will probably get there by next release at the rate they are going. But you won't find it anywhere else. Not even close.

So what it boils down to is time and quality of the final product.

From my experience you can spend way too much time and effort trying to use software that was no designed to do a certain task well enough. Your final product suffers and your time is sucked away coming up with workarounds and compromises.

No one would argue that you can do way more with Modo, LigjhtWave or Blender than you can do with say, Sketchup, or Wings 3D.

So why then would you spend hours and weeks or months trying to fight with Sketchup or Wings 3D to do some of the things you can do in a few clicks with other software? That would be insanity of course. Yet people do this all the time using Modo or Blender or LightWave only when there are other software that can do certain tasks a certain way, much faster and much better.

So the sane thing to do is use those tools when the time arises.

And then you can say, well there are certain things I can do in Sketchup that I can't do anywhere else as easily.

Exactly.

And that is why, if you spent time with it you can consider yourself lucky that you have it in your arsenal.

Same would go for LW CAD or any other plugin.

People recognize that to get certain features you have to go with a plugin. And mostly it is worth the price for the time savings and the end product.

Expand that concept out to all of the software available and then you have a good set of tools to tackle anything.

Are you willing to share what tools in blender you refer to as not to be found elsewhere? I would like to know a little about that.

Apart from the sculpting tools, I really think the skin modifier rocks....not sure if the skin modifier may be one of those tools, lightwave for sure doesnīt have it, donīt think modo and houdini got it either, once you get under the skin on how to edit edges by dividing or adding subdivider on the edges, and move and scale, extend individual point or edges in the branch level of the modifier, it really shows itīs power..I am right now learning the process with some symmetry tools in order to work with base figurine meshes in a similar way you do with zspheres in zbrush, and now I have figured my way out how to extract edges in a similar way as I did with lightwave..or adding single vertices to start from scratch, though I find that particular part easier to do in lightwave.

wings..well I had a stab at that, and there are some tools and workflows that are much better than in lightwave, but at a certain polyamount it becomes quite slow to work with.

Michael

S0nny
08-04-2016, 01:22 PM
I don't understand if it's because the language or what, but I think we are saying the same thing. I agree that you need the right tool for the right job, doing differently is a waste of time and resources, unless there's no other choice for some reason. And for sure Lw is not the best in any field, for pillows and duvets I wouldn't use clothFX, but Marvellous designer for 50$ the whole month.

I was trying to see the thing from a freelancer perspective, which usually has limited money to start with and very inconstant works. I'm sorry if I look pedant, but my point is just the renthal model ā-la Autodesk. It's convenient if you need the software on demand, but can be very expensive for the long term daily job: asking for a very expensive renthal fee for everyday software without providing a different kind of license simply puts many freelancers in a very difficult position, and Lw & co. becomes more appealing for the simple reason they are all around tools, even if they don't excel in any field. A cheaper all-in-one software to start with leaves you with more money in the pocket to spend in the other specialized tools you need, with AD many people would be pretty much done just with an annual renthal.

edit: added last sentence

Surrealist.
08-04-2016, 03:49 PM
Yeah that is true and it is why a lot of people move to Blender. Or why a lot of people open companies using Blender. And also why Blender is finding its way into a lot of pipelines world-wide in places we never hear about. And why LightWave is still used on shows like Star Trek. LightWave offers something other apps don't in the way of a straight forward approach to certain aspects of the production of a Sci Fi space film. But you will notice that that show also uses other apps like Maya in the pipe. They don't try to do it all with LightWave.

The reverse to using more tools is you have to live with limitations. And when you live with limitations you also paint yourself into a corner financially. It is a tough one to sort out. The economy seems a trifle tough these days. But we all have to make decisions based on what we think is best given our skills and connections for work.

In some cases you simply can't get jobs even as a freelancer unless you can offer a great product quickly. And that takes the right tools.

MichaelT
08-04-2016, 05:32 PM
When it comes to movie studios they use everything under the sun. LW is no exception. Whatever gets the job done. That means Blender too.

prometheus
08-04-2016, 07:43 PM
When it comes to movie studios they use everything under the sun. LW is no exception. Whatever gets the job done. That means Blender too.

Caaa..nīt resist..
Notepad too..and truespace, truespace is free..itīs full of icons so no nead to read and understand it, though it is lacking the chicken icon.
( due to lack of lightwave news..I am currently in silly mode)