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gamedesign1
07-25-2016, 01:52 PM
Hi all

I am about to start teaching my niece about 3D modelling and I have explained to her that I will teach her with the same software I use (Lightwave).
Here's the thing that has been going through my head, should I teach her Lightwave if I don't really know where Newtek is going with it? Because they have gone quiet again about the development of Lightwave I am unsure that this is right thing for me to be doing. Do I want to teach her something that may be redundant soon or do I teach her something like Blender that will always have a strong community? It's a dilemma.

I am interested in your thoughts guys.

prometheus
07-25-2016, 02:05 PM
Hi all

I am about to start teaching my niece about 3D modelling and I have explained to her that I will teach her with the same software I use (Lightwave).
Here's the thing that has been going through my head, should I teach her Lightwave if I don't really know where Newtek is going with it? Because they have gone quiet again about the development of Lightwave I am unsure that this is right thing for me to be doing. Do I want to teach her something that may be redundant soon or do I teach her something like Blender that will always have a strong community? It's a dilemma.

I am interested in your thoughts guys.


I donīt think the lighwave road map is particular important here, if you got a copy of it, you should know what it is capable of, and lightwave will not change that drasticly in workflow or how it looks the next release.I donīt think so, with exception on the newer pbr stuff and volumetrics perhaps, but I donīt think that would cause any issues to adjust to.
And it isnīt dead either or so, itīs just a major overhaul of the new engine and I reckon they are just having full focus on that..and that seem to have come with a cost/sacrifies..wich is the communication or info in these forums.

What you should worry about is what the possible goals your nice aim for, is it for just general stuff, for printing, for industry design, for film or games commercials etc, or whatever matches her talent?
And ofcourse ..what type of job market is there for here where she lives or nearby.

If you know something yourself about blender, I would recommend taking a look at that a bit, otherwise perhaps 3d max if you can get a learning version, same goes with maya..but that may be harder, I would probably recommend any of these before lightwave...but it depends also on your skills in the other software, no point if you have to struggle with those yourself.

If you on the other hand believe you are that skilled in many areas with lightwave, and trust that you can learn it well, and may plan to set some savings for future versions of lightwave...then go for it, Lightwave is so capable of producing good stuff if itīs in the right hands...itīs just that the business market mostly looks for other requirments (depending on where you are ofcourse) but lightwave isnīt in the top list of that I dare to say.
with a good portfolio and showcase you may be lucky to apply and show them otherwise though.

Not sure if any of this helps?

Michael

jasonwestmas
07-25-2016, 02:12 PM
Modeling isn't all that different between packages but there are multiple techniques to take into consideration depending on the subject matter.

Generally there is:

-) Manual Poly Sub-D modeling

-) Sculpting and Retopo work for Sub-D displacement or Low-poly normal mapping.

-) The high or low poly model is intended to look like a flat colored toon where you only need to be concerned with general shapes and smoothness.

-) Nurbs or spline modeling which is usually for hard surface precision modeling.

-) Boolean modeling which is where you cut out or add pieces of geometry using other shapes. I find this to be great for concepting hard surface stuff.

-) Procedural modeling which can be applied to most polygonal modeling techniques. It's like using photoshop layers but for modeling. Attributes and modifiers can be applied, taken away or modified at any time during the process. At the cost of computer performance and memory.

Anyway, my point is that certain modelers and sculpting toolsets do each of these techniques more in depth than others and so I would think about that when deciding which tools to use.

prometheus
07-25-2016, 02:27 PM
You got to start walking in the right direction and with shoes to fit that, so basicly we canīt provide good enough or focused info if we do not know that...
What is the typical interest in 3d for the niece, design, game, movies, effects, product design?etc..and take it from there..but it helps if we know what so we donīt just throw all possible combinations in here.
If we go for 3d modelling, does that exclude most animation or other vfx, and can assume itīs about 3d models exclusive?

Zbrush is the most common required skillset for high poly figures, and learning to sculpt..but it often mostly connected to characters, or environment sculpts...mostly.
otherwise for product design, I would look at modo if it can go with polygons, otherwise look at cad software, or nurbs like rhino which is also much required.

Michael

jasonwestmas
07-25-2016, 02:42 PM
yeah it's important to know the subject matter that is being modeled along with the Stylization (Feature Animation for e.g. Pixar or Dreamworks, Product Design, Digital Doubles of Real things or Things that will eventually be real like Architecture Previz and Industrial Design; video game/comic book styles etc.) and the level of detail required. Different fields of CG will determine the answers to these types of questions.

OlaHaldor
07-25-2016, 03:05 PM
I'm gonna take a bold move here...
How old is she? Does she use Steam? If so: have a look at Modo Indie.

I've never really become friends with LW Modeler. And I've hardly made models myself, until I started using Modo last summer. It was a revelation to say the least. Modeling have become mostly just a joyful thing vs. banging my head against the wall because I didn't find it intuitive (and envying those who made awesome looking robots and cars in LW..).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying LW sucks. I just thing it's not the best starter. Besides, Modo indie is quite cheap and can do tons of stuff.

If she's a student, she can get a fully functional student license for less than the price of Modo indie, which will support 3rd party tools, scripts and plugins. That's how I got into Modo.

gamedesign1
07-25-2016, 03:33 PM
Thanks guys.
She is interested in doing CG modelling for animated films.
Yeah I really like Modo, but couldn't afford to buy it. Is there some documentation that shows what the limitations of the Indie version are?

jasonwestmas
07-25-2016, 03:55 PM
Thanks guys.
She is interested in doing CG modelling for animated films.


ooooh, then most definitely learn something like Zbrush. Or just invest in Zbrush :D Look into concept design for feature film animation too. That always helps when modeling/sculpting things and characters.

gamedesign1
07-25-2016, 03:58 PM
I don't use ZBrush so it wouldnt be a good idea for me to teach her it. She has never done any 3D stuff at all. So I am not sure that going straight into a sculpting app would be helpful or not. PLus she wants an overview of lost of aspects of 3D so she can choose what she wants to do specifically.

OlaHaldor
07-25-2016, 04:13 PM
I think it's covered on the Steam page. http://store.steampowered.com/app/401090/

Norka
07-25-2016, 04:16 PM
Someone, anyone, starting 3D in Zbrush, would be one of the worst ideas ever. Maybe he was being sarcastic?.. ZB is not for the faint of heart.. or those with high blood pressure, I suspect. Every time I put it down for a couple months, I have to learn a bunch of new crap all over again, even when I just want to do some basic stuff. That is actually why I am in the process to switching to 3DCoat. Much friendlier.

jasonwestmas
07-25-2016, 04:30 PM
Someone, anyone, starting 3D in Zbrush, would be one of the worst ideas ever. Maybe he was being sarcastic?.. ZB is not for the faint of heart.. or those with high blood pressure, I suspect. Every time I put it down for a couple months, I have to learn a bunch of new crap all over again, even when I just want to do some basic stuff. That is actually why I am in the process to switching to 3DCoat. Much friendlier.

What do you mean? You draw a 3D shape, hit the edit button, subdivide, select a brush and start sculpting. Some of the best sculptors I've seen have very little technical knowledge. Zbrush, that's where I started, never regretted it, best idea ever. It's the only app where I feel like I'm actually modeling with clay, even with Zbrush 1.5 it was like that. It has the freedom of traditional mediums with the power of a digital medium. I'm hardly the first one to start with Zbrush. Which brings me to my next point. The only reason I bring this up is because IT IS what the studios in feature animation use to concept 3D models. And ALL software is a moving target, so learning more. . . that's not really an excuse is it.

And btw I wasn't talking just about zbrush but any app. similar to it. I can't stand using the voxel brush stuff in 3dc but that doesn't mean it's bad.

Surrealist.
07-25-2016, 05:35 PM
Don't teach her LightWave. Sorry. Just going to be blunt and to the point.

LightWave is the most far off the beaten path software there is out there. Two apps and the entire mess that comes with that and is easily avoidable by teaching her an app like Blender that at least has a simple modern workflow.

I don't have any issues with LightWave's future. I think it is bright. But that has to include eventually merging apps. It is just absolutely essential to LightWave.

So no. Do not start her learning to jump through a multitude of unnecessary hoops just to get basic things done.

I have experience teaching both LightWave and Blender to people. And Blender is hands down the winner as far as easy to pick up and understand. Whereas LightWave is so far off the path with its architecture and file format structure (two file types and locations for scene and object). And it would be then be just teaching bad habits that will never translate into other apps down the line.

Later down the line once she has Blender under belt and is confident, and LightWave gets some needed love (even if it is still two app) then teach her LightWave if she is interested. But support her interests in which ever way she chooses to go.

It would be much easier to teach her LightWave after rather than first. And she will at least know what an app is supposed to look like in this modern world and compare LightWave to that. And she will simply adapt to that and see it for what it is rather than making the horrible mistake of assuming all aps are like this. When they are not.

Spinland
07-25-2016, 06:24 PM
I give multiple talks a year to school kids about the idea of a career in 3D modeling and animation. In every case I counsel they start with Blender and I provide a laundry list of links to free online training to get them going (including the iTunes U course material). My stance is no potential candidate for a career in this field should invest a penny (apart from obtaining the requisite hardware to run Blender) until they have gone through the paces of learning the basics and on to creating non-trivial work that someone experienced can then use to critique and guide them into the more intermediate and advanced paths.

You may love or hate Blender, but it is a very powerful and feature-rich application that requires almost no investment (save time), and is a solid tool for learning the basic concepts of all the mainstream modeling, texturing, rigging and animating processes. Only after they have advanced to creating nontrivial projects do I recommend they begin looking at the commercial applications and deciding what software stovepipe(s) they want to specialize in.

gamedesign1
07-25-2016, 06:48 PM
Thanks guys you are all making good valid points. I keep leaning towards teaching her with Blender even though I am not that clued up on it. I use it mainly for the Sculpting and UV tools. I agree that it would probably be better to get her to learn something that doesn't split the modelling and the animation into 2 separate apps (even though I have never had a problem with it and in some ways I prefer it). There are some very annoying things about Blender, but I may have to overlook them.

gamedesign1
07-25-2016, 07:55 PM
So many things in Blender I just can't seem to do easily. For example:- Scaling polys to a specific size

prometheus
07-25-2016, 08:10 PM
What do you mean? You draw a 3D shape, hit the edit button, subdivide, select a brush and start sculpting. Some of the best sculptors I've seen have very little technical knowledge. Zbrush, that's where I started, never regretted it, best idea ever. It's the only app where I feel like I'm actually modeling with clay, even with Zbrush 1.5 it was like that. It has the freedom of traditional mediums with the power of a digital medium. I'm hardly the first one to start with Zbrush. Which brings me to my next point. The only reason I bring this up is because IT IS what the studios in feature animation use to concept 3D models. And ALL software is a moving target, so learning more. . . that's not really an excuse is it.

And btw I wasn't talking just about zbrush but any app. similar to it. I can't stand using the voxel brush stuff in 3dc but that doesn't mean it's bad.


I actually enjoy blenders sculpting tools, rather than zbrush interface, and that comes from one that doesnīt particulary like the blender UI, but the sculpting tools is nice, though it lacks some brushes of course and the higher dense mesh sculpting.
If I compare sculptris VS blender sculpt...I would go with blender, I enjoy zbrush as well, but wish it was more like mudbox,zbrush interface is a bit different from other main 3d apps in the approach, and if you start from scratch without having touched other 3d software, that may be easier, but if you come from other 3d programs..it will probably feel awkward until you have used it a lot.

Actually...when looking at building up Zsphereīs, for main figure skeleton then adaptive skin and sculpt, But in blender you are starting with a point and extend or subdivide in blender with skin modifier is a similar approach, not the same..but the object mesh creation is the end result and I actually prefer blenders way of extending points and divide edge and while in skin modifier mode, when base mesh seems good enough, apply the modifier then start to sculpt.

Lightwave however, doesnīt have anything similar to that, lacks both sculpting tools and a mesher while working with edges.

prometheus
07-25-2016, 08:14 PM
So many things in Blender I just can't seem to do easily. For example:- Scaling polys to a specific size

you have both transform values and if you hit s and drag a bit, you get acess to rezise values, so what do you mean?
maybe this helps, go to scene properties and change units to metric if thatīs what you want..
but I do agree..it feels more inituive with lightwave that some things are were you expect them to be.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdXzw225KVU

Surrealist.
07-25-2016, 08:54 PM
Thanks guys you are all making good valid points. I keep leaning towards teaching her with Blender even though I am not that clued up on it. I use it mainly for the Sculpting and UV tools. I agree that it would probably be better to get her to learn something that doesn't split the modelling and the animation into 2 separate apps (even though I have never had a problem with it and in some ways I prefer it). There are some very annoying things about Blender, but I may have to overlook them.

There are lots of tutorials in Blender. So you don't have to be an expert.

But one thing I have found universally false about the online community compared to real life. There seems to be a rather small yet vocal contingent of users who want to "speak for everyone" when they say that Blender..."fill in the blanks here".

But in real life. This is just not true. Artist by and large do not react to Blender in the way they these people want to make us think that all people do. I have yet to run into one artist who complained about any of it. And I am now seeing it thought in schools and also students are already aware of and using it.

It is really starting to catch on.

The fact that Blender has a Renderman plugin says a lot for its importance as a software.

In the end I would not underestimate your niece. If she is like most students I have trained, it will be a snap.

jasonwestmas
07-25-2016, 09:35 PM
I actually enjoy blenders sculpting tools, rather than zbrush interface, and that comes from one that doesnīt particulary like the blender UI, but the sculpting tools is nice, though it lacks some brushes of course and the higher dense mesh sculpting.
If I compare sculptris VS blender sculpt...I would go with blender, I enjoy zbrush as well, but wish it was more like mudbox,zbrush interface is a bit different from other main 3d apps in the approach, and if you start from scratch without having touched other 3d software, that may be easier, but if you come from other 3d programs..it will probably feel awkward until you have used it a lot.

Actually...when looking at building up Zsphereīs, for main figure skeleton then adaptive skin and sculpt, But in blender you are starting with a point and extend or subdivide in blender with skin modifier is a similar approach, not the same..but the object mesh creation is the end result and I actually prefer blenders way of extending points and divide edge and while in skin modifier mode, when base mesh seems good enough, apply the modifier then start to sculpt.

Lightwave however, doesnīt have anything similar to that, lacks both sculpting tools and a mesher while working with edges.

Sure, I always feel awkward picking up a new program. Granted there are different degrees of awkwardness. I started off with zbrush and max and then picked up lightwave. They all appeared to be odd programs at first. I get confused when people use that as an excuse though. If I keep picking up the same program and it still feels right after not using it for a while then I know I have found a winner for myself as a creative user.

jasonwestmas
07-25-2016, 09:37 PM
In the end I would not underestimate your niece. If she is like most students I have trained, it will be a snap.

Yup never underestimate the mind and imagination of people. Especially young people. ;)

jeric_synergy
07-26-2016, 12:29 AM
IMO knowing another app is a distinct handicap when approaching Blender. Taken on its own, it's quite clever. Compared to more traditional apps, it's baffling.

Were money no object, zero, not even a consideration, I'd recommend C4d. But Blender is freekin' FREE.

I also saw a VR game on the vive authored by a 15 yo using Blender and It Blew Me Away. It helped that his dad worked at Valve, but still, he knocked it out of the park with modeling, palette, sound, and gameplay-- I wish I could have played longer. --little snotnose brat....ragafragin.... :grumpy:



(Actually, Blender and Unity.)

Spinland
07-26-2016, 05:27 AM
Artist by and large do not react to Blender in the way they these people want to make us think that all people do. I have yet to run into one artist who complained about any of it. And I am now seeing it thought in schools and also students are already aware of and using it.

Quoted for agreement. As for my personal soap box, to me these apps are all just tools. They have different ways you have to hold them to do the job, but in the end it's the job—the art—that is the focus and not which tool you happen to be using. The art itself still ends up being points and polygons depicting what you're trying to capture visually, and that's the chief thing I believe matters.

bobakabob
07-26-2016, 07:57 AM
As you know LW well teach LW. The Modeler is brilliant and ridiculously underrated.
All these skills are *transferable*. It's good to be flexible for many reasons.
A young person would quickly pick up Maya if they needed to, I see this all the time in education.

I'm a lot older so learn much more slowly but because I knew LW Toolsets well, picked up Maya fundamentals in just a few days.

As Spinland suggests, the basic Toolsets in LW / Maya / C4D etc are very much the same.

PS I find it remarkable that some LW users don't seem to appreciate what a great toolset LW is - even recommending alternate apps on Newtek's forum. The nerve!

prometheus
07-26-2016, 08:57 AM
As you know LW well teach LW. The Modeler is brilliant and ridiculously underrated.
All these skills are *transferable*. It's good to be flexible for many reasons.
A young person would quickly pick up Maya if they needed to, I see this all the time in education.

I'm a lot older so learn much more slowly but because I knew LW Toolsets well, picked up Maya fundamentals in just a few days.

As Spinland suggests, the basic Toolsets in LW / Maya / C4D etc are very much the same.

PS I find it remarkable that some LW users don't seem to appreciate what a great toolset LW is - even recommending alternate apps on Newtek's forum. The nerve!

I do appreciate Lightwave lot, but why not recommend a free app that has stuff that lightwave donīt...as with the blender case, like sculpting or skin modfier an a lot more stuff, it goes the other way around as well ofcourse, it really isnīt that remarkable, and the nerve to mentione other software here in these forums?..
well newtek have to set that as a "forbidden" rule of mentioning or recommending other software, I am pretty sure they will look at it the sober way and take in account all the circumstances around it all, they would hardly protest...in fact they would probably condole some stuff, like after effects, zbrush, and even have a zbrush zgo workflow, that may have to do with if it compliments ligthwave too.
If someone repeatable goes in and talks negativly in General and pointīs to other softwave..that is a bit of more suspicious infiltration
.
I rather use Blender to sculpt rocks..since I find that superior to using the latest 2015 drag falloff tools, then I would also send it back to work in Lightwave since I feel more comfortable with lw render engine and the other stuff in there, If I would like to work with displacements to make rocks, I rather stay in lightwave because that workflow it better for me than blenders in that case.

Talking and discussing other software and what may work better there is in my opinion a part of evolutionary feedback to use for further development...such as, ah folks tend to want sculpting tools or wow..how nice that skin modifier is etc, or ..oh weight paint made easy, letīs take a look at that further ahead.

I canīt agree about basic toolset, sculpting in my opinion should be a basic toolset, in the case of lightwave..you have to rely on third party stuff for that.

I find it easier to be more exact with the modeling in lightwave though, as someone here mentioned too.
Itīs foremost a matter of what the Niece wantīs to do, then take it from there..and what can be set aside for the purchase etc, otherwise my advice would be to teach lightwave if thatīs what the teacher knows, or try out blender because there is a lot of youtube stuff to pick up from, and itīs free and it has some stuff lw lacks in modeling department honestly, blender seem to be an ever increasing tool as well together with a large community.

jeric_synergy
07-26-2016, 09:07 AM
PS I find it remarkable that some LW users don't seem to appreciate what a great toolset LW is - even recommending alternate apps on Newtek's forum. The nerve!
It's the procedural thing, Bob: once you feel the power of (fully operational) procedurals, coming back to static meshes is quite painful.

And while people may say "it's all just points and polys", GETTING to those points and polys is all the difference. If you are Bryphii and have apparently unlimited time you MAY be able to do some mograph stuff in LW: compare that to making text do the same kind of thing in C4D.

It's NOT just "all points and polys", no more than a flute is a piano*. Different tools DO make a difference.



*oooo, that's a good one: gotta remember that. ;)

Spinland
07-26-2016, 09:27 AM
Heh. But to steal and extend your analogy: it's all just notes on a scale.

Spinland
07-26-2016, 09:43 AM
PS I find it remarkable that some LW users don't seem to appreciate what a great toolset LW is - even recommending alternate apps on Newtek's forum. The nerve!

Heh. I know, right?

Seriously, the reason I espouse Blender to the kids is cost. I personally know parents who sent their kids to schools like Full Sail and, thousands of dollars later, said kids realized it was more work and less fun than they expected and they washed out. Our local Community College boasts an excellent 2-year digital animation degree, quite on the cheap, but before the parents shell out dollar one I maintain the kid needs to demonstrate the passion and self-motivation to pick up the basic skill sets on their own while discovering whether such a career is really for them.

bobakabob
07-26-2016, 09:43 AM
It's the procedural thing, Bob: once you feel the power of (fully operational) procedurals, coming back to static meshes is quite painful.

And while people may say "it's all just points and polys", GETTING to those points and polys is all the difference. If you are Bryphii and have apparently unlimited time you MAY be able to do some mograph stuff in LW: compare that to making text do the same kind of thing in C4D.

It's NOT just "all points and polys", no more than a flute is a piano*. Different tools DO make a difference.



*oooo, that's a good one: gotta remember that. ;)

Agreed, but points and polys are still the fundamentals in the big pro apps and LW imo is brilliant for teaching the basics.

Nothing wrong with recommending a *complementary* app to LW such as 3D Coat and Zbrush. Funnily enough, the latter has just introduced a points n poly toolset - decades after LW...

Understanding sculpting apps would be a great experience for young learners. I just find it bizarre that on a LW forum some are discounting Modeler altogether. Which is good enough out the box - look at the incredible character work Taron used to create in lightening speed using *about 3-4 basic tools*. this was before the wonderful LWCAD and 3rd Powers tools. There is nothing you can't model - it's all about talent not bells 'n whistles.

Some old 'uns here possibly underestimate how quickly young kids learn - with the capacity to switch between apps effortlessly. I work in College and Uni environments where many students intuitively flip between apps such as Maya, Max and yes, LW. I really do think LW is a great learning tool, an economical pro app for small studios and as I've found myself, it equips you with essential transferable skills. :)

Spinland
07-26-2016, 09:46 AM
If you are Bryphii and have apparently unlimited time you MAY be able to do some mograph stuff in LW: compare that to making text do the same kind of thing in C4D.

I confess this part confused me. I do MOCAP quite a bit starting this year. Did you mean by relying only on Nevron? If so I agree, I use Brekel but everything before and after is all LW and I am known around here for quick turnaround times.

Spinland
07-26-2016, 09:49 AM
Agreed, but points and polys are still the fundamentals in the big pro apps

This and everything else you posted. I'll draw another analogy: If I were to go golfing with Tiger Woods, I with my full bag and he only with a wedge and a putter, I expect he'd still kick my ***** so thoroughly I'd cry for days. He could even use them as he'd find them in the lost and found bin of my home club rather than his custom made ones. The tool might help with some details, might extend (or destroy) convenience, but if your skill set is sound and you know what you are trying to achieve you simply adapt the tools to hand to achieve it. Yes, it is really that simple. All else is details.

bobakabob
07-26-2016, 10:02 AM
This and everything else you posted. I'll draw another analogy: If I were to go golfing with Tiger Woods, I with my full bag and he only with a wedge and a putter, I expect he'd still kick my ***** so thoroughly I'd cry for days. He could even use them as he'd find them in the lost and found bin of my home club rather than his custom made ones. The tool might help with some details, might extend (or destroy) convenience, but if your skill set is sound and you know what you are trying to achieve you simply adapt the tools to hand to achieve it. Yes, it is really that simple. All else is details.

Lol, enjoyed the golfing analogy :)

jeric_synergy
07-26-2016, 10:12 AM
Heh. But to steal and extend your analogy: it's all just notes on a scale.
That is true, BUT:

A piano can play chords.
You can sing along while playing.

There are some tools that simply are so much better than other tools that they become a totally different THING. They make possible what would never (sanely) be attempted.

While talent is always a requirement, it is not solely sufficient.

prometheus
07-26-2016, 10:20 AM
Agreed, but points and polys are still the fundamentals in the big pro apps and LW imo is brilliant for teaching the basics.

Nothing wrong with recommending a *complementary* app to LW such as 3D Coat and Zbrush. Funnily enough, the latter has just introduced a points n poly toolset - decades after LW...

Understanding sculpting apps would be a great experience for young learners. I just find it bizarre that on a LW forum some are discounting Modeler altogether. Which is good enough out the box - look at the incredible character work Taron used to create in lightening speed using *about 3-4 basic tools*. this was before the wonderful LWCAD and 3rd Powers tools. There is nothing you can't model - it's all about talent not bells 'n whistles.

Some old 'uns here possibly underestimate how quickly young kids learn - with the capacity to switch between apps effortlessly. I work in College and Uni environments where many students intuitively flip between apps such as Maya, Max and yes, LW. I really do think LW is a great learning tool, an economical pro app for small studios and as I've found myself, it equips you with essential transferable skills. :)

I donīt agree with some things here bob....
Lightwave modeler has gone a bit tad old in the tooth, as it was with hypervoxels..and now we are getting a new system for that.
Itīs definitly capable of creating most stuff, amazing stuff..but software ability comparison it fades in some areas.
Regarding Taron, well ..you mentioned lw cad in the same sentence..I donīt think Taron had any use of that for character work really..itīs designed isnīt either directly aimed for that.

Now if Taron can spit out so great characters with only a few tools in lightwave, he shouldnīt even bother using anything else, the truth is that Taron seem to have been using more zbrush...and even modo I think, both those apps provide texture painting which lightwave does not, and sculpting which lightwave does not, and probably better Uv tools as I understand it.

Taron obviously recognized that he could lift his work to another level with sculpting tools etc, you do not exactly work with wrinkles and cracks and model that with brushes and alpha textures in lightwave, that is nearly impossible, the "newly" introduced drag texture falloff will help out a bit, but the model perfomance is just too slow to make any use of it.

Itīs gonna be interesting to see the model data performance in Layout, and then we would probably have to wait a bit more for model enhancements...though the blog says the foundation should now be laid to allow them to develop tools faster with the new engine, but that has to be proven by more frequente updates when it finally comes to that.

And..Talent is Not the only thing you need..by a far shot...Itīs probably one of the most important things, and if you are without it..not much good comes out as end result I guess, but if one doesnīt have good craftmanship tools, it will only work to your disadvantage.
Talent is all is a nice phrase etc..commonly used, but itīs not all.

There are some major issues the lightwave team have to deal with in modeler..in my opinion.

1. speed performance optimation.
2. introducing procedural modeling history stack.
3. sculpt and texture toolset.
4. also get most of that in layout.

prometheus
07-26-2016, 10:30 AM
hereīs an interview with taron...

http://pixologic.com/interview/artist/archive/taron/

Some quick qoutes...
"ZBrush exceeds any previous experiences, and invites far more elaborate explorations of form and expression of shapes."
"How would you rate ZBrush's contribution to your workflow?

Off the scale! It changes everything and I'm not kidding! It inspires a whole new approach to detail and deformation, and allows for a much much higher work performance, since it gives us the opportunity to animate a lot lower resolution geometry, making it faster on already on the most technical of all levels, as well as animate to a far higher level of detail with great ease."

Since we do have Goz support, the lightwave team certainly recognizes this, and seeīs it as a valuable pipeline tool.

Spinland
07-26-2016, 10:32 AM
Jeric, my very good friend. I hear you but I think now we're into realms of philosophy so we can all disagree and everyone can still be right. ;D

For whatever it's worth I'm not only multi-app-ist but multi-instrumental (guitar, keyboards, drums and, oddly enough, cornet) so the music analogies start me off into some wild fun places.

There isn't a 3D app made I couldn't sit down and pick up in short order so long as I focus on what I'm trying to accomplish and don't get bogged down in the features. in that respect I am probably not a good touchstone for this topic. I'll just say you are certainly correct and (in my little world) so am I. Now, where's my beer? :beerchug:

robertn2k
07-26-2016, 01:42 PM
Well I teach Lightwave here at FSU in the Digital Media Production program and students seem to pick up the basics pretty quick. One of the biggest problems with LW in the edu market is that Newtek is out of step with licensing compared to other 3D apps. A student can get an 18 month seat of CD4 or even Maya for free. Lightwave has a 30 day trial license. That's not really long enough to do much of anything even if you are motivated to learn the app. Rob acknowledged the situation and had it on his "to do list" to address but I have no idea where that is in the grand scheme of things. The 3D group has been gracious about extending trial seats for me but they need to fix this is they want schools to teach the software. Mind you we pay for the seats in our lab where students meet for instruction but if a student wants a copy for their laptop or desktop so they can work at home on assignments they only have 30 days.

bobakabob
07-26-2016, 02:48 PM
That is true, BUT:

A piano can play chords.
You can sing along while playing.

There are some tools that simply are so much better than other tools that they become a totally different THING. They make possible what would never (sanely) be attempted.

While talent is always a requirement, it is not solely sufficient.

Aren't you comparing say a Lightwave guitar with a Zbrush piano? They both need talent to operate. Some talents are multi instrumentalists e.g. Prince played a Squire start and used cheap synths and drum machines... Closer to reality, an annoying friend of mine can compose, sing and make a clapped out plank sound like Hendrix :)

jasonwestmas
07-26-2016, 03:03 PM
Aren't you comparing say a Lightwave guitar with a Zbrush piano? They both need talent to operate. Some talents are multi instrumentalists e.g. Prince played a Squire start and used cheap synths and drum machines... Closer to reality, an annoying friend of mine can compose, sing and make a clapped out plank sound like Hendrix :)

No he's saying, sometimes you don't want to use up an insane amount of time to get a project done. Talent needs reasonably fast tools to make that happen. Depending on what you are trying to accomplish of course.

prometheus
07-26-2016, 04:00 PM
Well I teach Lightwave here at FSU in the Digital Media Production program and students seem to pick up the basics pretty quick. One of the biggest problems with LW in the edu market is that Newtek is out of step with licensing compared to other 3D apps. A student can get an 18 month seat of CD4 or even Maya for free. Lightwave has a 30 day trial license. That's not really long enough to do much of anything even if you are motivated to learn the app. Rob acknowledged the situation and had it on his "to do list" to address but I have no idea where that is in the grand scheme of things. The 3D group has been gracious about extending trial seats for me but they need to fix this is they want schools to teach the software. Mind you we pay for the seats in our lab where students meet for instruction but if a student wants a copy for their laptop or desktop so they can work at home on assignments they only have 30 days.

Ivé been saying that for a long time they need to get much longer trial versions, or make it ple versions ala houdini, and probably offer for free versions to vefified schools ec, In a fight over the 3d market ..autodesk sits on high ground offering free versions to schools, and that is mostly what they choose, lightwave is on the lower ground, iīts not enough though ..the lightwave team/newtek needs to get a plint in there in the form of some sort of incitament for the 3d viz industry to choose lightwave, probably related to something innovative that changes everything, or lightwave able to perform insanely well in terms of data handling that no one else can competive with.

The time of the out of the box tool is really over, and maybe even itīs very cheap pricing, considering blender and other tools out there that are free, guess they need to balance their pricing model according to which fight they pick, matching up against the bigger more expensive 3d software market, or try to stay in the middle..much more affordable for smaller studios and hobbyiest...and having blender in mind when thinking about the latter.

Surrealist.
07-26-2016, 04:25 PM
Well then to some of the points made here. If you are wondering what app to teach your niece, don't ask that on a software specific forum. How could that possibly be fair to her?

If we are to discuss this subject it should be discussed objectively. Or don't discuss it at all. In my opinion.

It should be discussed with her best interests in mind. Not with bias based on software you use or don't or use or what you are familiar with.

Disconnect your vested interest from her best interest. They are not the same thing.

Probably the best thing you could do would be to sit her down and get some kind of an idea about what she is most interested in. Find out if she has any goals with this and what they are. Maybe go over the various options there are and let her pick.

It could be she is real keen on special effects. Well hands down that means Houdini apprentice. But a decision to teach LightWave should be based on what is best for her. And only that.

In general, just in general regarding 3D. There are more reasons not to start her in LightWave than there are in favor of it.

That in my opinion is just being objective.

jeric_synergy
07-26-2016, 04:28 PM
In general, just in general regarding 3D. There are more reasons not to start her in LightWave than there are in favor of it.
I'd say that's quite fair, and concise.

jasonwestmas
07-26-2016, 05:06 PM
If you are wondering what app to teach your niece, don't ask that on a software specific forum. How could that possibly be fair to her?



lol, yes That should have been the very first reply. This is an extremely biased forum, not surprising.

prometheus
07-26-2016, 06:19 PM
Well then to some of the points made here. If you are wondering what app to teach your niece, don't ask that on a software specific forum. How could that possibly be fair to her?


Who said anything about being fair? :devil:
the situation is that He can only teach that of what he knows, ideally however I agree with you....sit down and probe the area of interest for her, then guide to something that may fit to that..wether or not lightwave fitīs in or not, if it is blender and he doesnīt know anything about it..let her discover for herself or guide to tutorials, or let her adapt and overcome the situation.

prometheus
07-26-2016, 06:30 PM
I don't use ZBrush so it wouldnt be a good idea for me to teach her it. She has never done any 3D stuff at all. So I am not sure that going straight into a sculpting app would be helpful or not. PLus she wants an overview of lost of aspects of 3D so she can choose what she wants to do specifically.

My suggestion would be to ignore layout advanced in lightwave...for now, but since you got lightwave..use it, you also got blender for free, and you got sculptris that is free too..I would suggest get started with all those for a brief overview..which also covers basic sculpting.

You could start by going through creating the very basics..both in blender and in lw modeler boxes, spheres planes and how to divide them to more resolutions, do that in both lightwave and blender, and also introduce export out obj format.like from lightwave to blender and sculptris, sculptris is quite easy to use...and if you import to blender you just need to know how to switch between object, edit and sculpt mode..if you know how to export import from lightwave to blender sculptris and also how to create basic forms and divide them in either blender, lightwave modeler or sculptris, then you can play your way through sculpting ..then also check the tutorials, add prenumerations and bookmarks of the topics too.
The other part is how to navigate in viewports and introduce the axis coordinate concept and that they are a bit different.

Once the navigation concept and basic model adding is there, take it to the render stages in both lightwave and blender, just briefly.

Surrealist.
07-27-2016, 01:39 PM
Who said anything about being fair? :devil:
the situation is that He can only teach that of what he knows,

As far as fair people are just getting confused with this as a LightWave forum which is one thing. And deciding on the future of a youth with is another thing entirely. For god's sake lets not let egos and bias decide the future of a young student! She gets enough of that at school and from her parents anyway... lol

As far as limiting it to what one knows.... well. You know. The honest thing to do is to not limit it to what one knows and if you care about the kid at all you will do one of 2 things. 1) learn other software or 2) guide her and point her in a direction. There are tons of tutorials on the net. And you don't have to be an expert in all software to oversee and guide her.

Remember she can also get free education versions of all of the Autodesk software. Even substance designer is going to release a free NC version.

I know it seems logical. Go to the Uncle. I am an Uncle too and it has happened to me.

So this is just my opinion. Take it for what it is worth.

Dexter2999
07-27-2016, 02:34 PM
If she were right handed and you were going to teach her write, would you teach her left handed with the justification being "well, all of the letters are the same no matter which hand you use"?

prometheus
07-27-2016, 04:49 PM
If she were right handed and you were going to teach her write, would you teach her left handed with the justification being "well, all of the letters are the same no matter which hand you use"?

teach both, only way to be sure, to get exercise for both halves of the brain :) but with the case such as this..why not left handed? if you aim for artistic development later in life, sure..and if she already is right handed but havenīt learned to write, why not..since the right halve of the brain seems to deal with spatial and artistic sensory better.

prometheus
07-27-2016, 05:13 PM
As far as fair people are just getting confused with this as a LightWave forum which is one thing. And deciding on the future of a youth with is another thing entirely. For god's sake lets not let egos and bias decide the future of a young student! She gets enough of that at school and from her parents anyway... lol

As far as limiting it to what one knows.... well. You know. The honest thing to do is to not limit it to what one knows and if you care about the kid at all you will do one of 2 things. 1) learn other software or 2) guide her and point her in a direction. There are tons of tutorials on the net. And you don't have to be an expert in all software to oversee and guide her.

Remember she can also get free education versions of all of the Autodesk software. Even substance designer is going to release a free NC version.

I know it seems logical. Go to the Uncle. I am an Uncle too and it has happened to me.

So this is just my opinion. Take it for what it is worth.


I agree with most of your things..I was a bit obnoxius just to point out the situation and the fact that all that lightwave stuff is one major resource, with a reservation to that she shouldnīt feel it to be awkward from the very start.

biased forums advices? that is one thing...and sure it may be so here, in my case I wouldnīt call it biased if I assume from a point of view of what he Can teach, mainly lightwave and perhaps blender...that is a resource to take in account and to get up to speed, otherwise he could say..look around for yoursefl, and write down the other software for her to check out.

I agree about lotīs of tutorials out there, but it doesnīt take a wizzard more than she should be able to figure out things for herself, if he only knows briefly about the other software..there isnīt much he can do...the very notion that he asked around in these forums tells something that he is having a hard time to know what to guide towards.

Now lightwave he know and owns, blender he may now a bit..and it is free, sculptris is free as well and introduces sculpting concepts, i suggested to start of with main concepts with both lightwave and blender and sculptris, getting basic objects created and imported and exported back between these for basic sculpting and dividing and navigation.

If you on the other hand look at it with the perspective on what is most important? the interest/aptitude towards a certain area?..and let that guide her? regardless of what is so called industry standard software and what that means for the chances to get a job? those two doesnīt always play nice together, you got to be a bit lucky as well if you only follow your bliss ..and see whatever the tide brings you, if you end up with Avatar projects etc.

If gamedesign has no knowledge towards 3d max, houdini, cinema4d or maya...then he can only just download demos or apprentice versions and install them for her and let her go trough all those vids up there on youtube, I am not sure that is fair to her either, just throwing everything at her..without much experience with those.

If we assume the premise is ..he is supposed to teach, he can only do that from what he know, otherwise it all falls pretty flat and merely becomes..here you go, teach yourself.
Not sure if she can get free full working educational versions from outodesk, isnīt that requiring that she can verify that she is student in some accepted shoolform etc?
But I think we can agree on a sit down talk is the best, what do you want to do, what skills may she posses, or discuss around the current industry standard if a job is in the focus as well.

Surrealist.
07-27-2016, 08:05 PM
I can not conceive of any of those reasons to be in priority in any way over the best interests of a child or young adult making a career choice. Who cares what you know and don't know? Why should that and what you can and can not teach even be a subject of discussion?

Guiding someone does not mean just pushing it off on them. That would be irresponsible. But as an adult, assuming the role of an advisor, you should first and foremost put their best interests as the top priority. And that is the reasoning behind coming here in the first place. So good move.

The problem is, because this is a LightWave forum it is always going to get the hits on the thread from those with a bias and an agenda. I know this for a fact, because I have talked with these people privately. And I understand the reasoning. It makes sense. This is a LightWave forum. We should be looking out for LightWave and seeing to it that LightWave gets pushed and supported. And for this reason I do - believe it or not - curb a lot of what I could or should say. Very often.

However, this does not apply here in my opinion.

You can guide a young adult without having to know everything. You can supervise study on a subject you know about, even if it is just broadly. And you can help a person sort through issues etc. You don't have to toss your hands up and say it is over may head. And as I said before, if you care, really. take the opportunity to broaden your horizons. Perfect reason to do it.

prometheus
07-27-2016, 09:08 PM
I can not conceive of any of those reasons to be in priority in any way over the best interests of a child or young adult making a career choice. Who cares what you know and don't know? Why should that and what you can and can not teach even be a subject of discussion?

Guiding someone does not mean just pushing it off on them. That would be irresponsible. But as an adult, assuming the role of an advisor, you should first and foremost put their best interests as the top priority. And that is the reasoning behind coming here in the first place. So good move.

The problem is, because this is a LightWave forum it is always going to get the hits on the thread from those with a bias and an agenda. I know this for a fact, because I have talked with these people privately. And I understand the reasoning. It makes sense. This is a LightWave forum. We should be looking out for LightWave and seeing to it that LightWave gets pushed and supported. And for this reason I do - believe it or not - curb a lot of what I could or should say. Very often.

However, this does not apply here in my opinion.

You can guide a young adult without having to know everything. You can supervise study on a subject you know about, even if it is just broadly. And you can help a person sort through issues etc. You don't have to toss your hands up and say it is over may head. And as I said before, if you care, really. take the opportunity to broaden your horizons. Perfect reason to do it.

Richard..regarding my conversation, the third row from you is of total irrelevance with a discussion with me around what I say, and agendas that is biased etc, I made these suggestions on picking up lightwave based on what they got as a resource that is lightwave as a license and the skils the teacher has to act as a teacher, I also mentioned he should sit down and talk to find out firstly what is in the nieceīs interest foremost.
Then if I look closesly...the priority is the interest of the person, I agree...that doesnīt mean you should disregard what is there as a resource and what type of situation that poses, just that it needs to be taken in serious consideration...and it definitly matters with perspective on deciding on wether or not He should act as the teacher, otherwise I have said that just leave the decisions up to her and let her do the probing herself.

for the last row, sure you can guide an adut without having to know everything...but if you look at it, oh I donīt know blender and have never used it..then you fire it up and try to navigate and find stuff..huh, how would that be of good training to a child, that would probably just make them loose interest if you can not act pedagogical.

you could also skip the software and just go through main concept with talks about coordinates, axis, what is a polygon, point, edge is, subdivsion etc..particles, surfaces etc..and what could be different with some programs..if you happen to understand them.
I also mentioned about sitting down and discuss what is the top priority, if they should discuss it purely based on her interests and potential skills for something, or if they should introduce further thoughts of questions like..how do you see yourself in this..to work with or just be playful with it and have it as an interest.

I donīt get why we even argue about it..it doesnīt seem to me that we are of different opinion? except possible you go for only what is for her best interest, while I do not exclude a discussion with her around future work, or careful consideration from him wether or not if he can teach on other software or not, or leave it up to her to figure those things out...that is something we canīt say anything about.

priority is established..why would anyone argue about that, if that is the only thing to consider however? as priority yes...but why would that exclude further considerations and weigh that in?

hypersuperduper
07-28-2016, 01:45 AM
Is there any reason not to teach both blender and lightwave? Blender is great because it is fun to play with, and it has everything you could want in a modern 3D app for free even if the solutions aren't necessarily as robust as the pro apps, and lightwave by virtue of its old-fashioned, and for lack of a better word, transparent workflows is great for demonstrating what is actually going on behind the scenes with a lot of the things that other apps do automatically nowadays, which gives the user an advantage when automatic solutions stop working as expected. In most modern apps the user can create powerful rigs and relationships between objects without having any idea what is going on, as the tool often generates all the necessary controllers and relationships on its own, Whereas in lightwave you generally need to create your own nulls and define the relationships explicitly. I mean, even if lightwave is probably not the best app for character animation for example, it is an excellent app to learn how it works, because you really NEED to learn how it works in order to make anything at all.

bobakabob
07-28-2016, 05:41 AM
Is there any reason not to teach both blender and lightwave? Blender is great because it is fun to play with, and it has everything you could want in a modern 3D app for free even if the solutions aren't necessarily as robust as the pro apps, and lightwave by virtue of its old-fashioned, and for lack of a better word, transparent workflows is great for demonstrating what is actually going on behind the scenes with a lot of the things that other apps do automatically nowadays, which gives the user an advantage when automatic solutions stop working as expected. In most modern apps the user can create powerful rigs and relationships between objects without having any idea what is going on, as the tool often generates all the necessary controllers and relationships on its own, Whereas in lightwave you generally need to create your own nulls and define the relationships explicitly. I mean, even if lightwave is probably not the best app for character animation for example, it is an excellent app to learn how it works, because you really NEED to learn how it works in order to make anything at all.

Yep, flexibility and transferable skills are what young people need. Where will all this software be in 10 years time?

Spinland
07-28-2016, 06:30 AM
Yep, flexibility and transferable skills are what young people need. Where will all this software be in 10 years time?

Quoted for agreement. I know some disagree with me, but my stance is still the ability to realize your vision using points and polygons is the critical foundation. Everything else is flavoring.

jasonwestmas
07-28-2016, 09:04 AM
Quoted for agreement. I know some disagree with me, but my stance is still the ability to realize your vision using points and polygons is the critical foundation. Everything else is flavoring.

Well, in the context of learning and building intuition for structural function and aesthetics, it is best to think in a rudimentary way and not worry about time constraints. :) In which case a lump of sculpy, some pencils or paint would work perfectly for that. Computers were designed for efficiency, they don't teach you anything.

Now, if the class was about how to get things done faster while using your fundamental skills that you learned before you touched a computer. Then yeah, the subject of graphics software suddenly become most important.

Spinland
07-28-2016, 09:09 AM
To some degree I buy that, Jason, sure. I consider traditional drawing (and even sculpting) skills to be a prerequisite before you grab a keyboard and Wacom. I'll grant computerized tools do speed up lots of workflows (tweening, anyone?) but as a self-professed old fart I see digital art tools as just one flavor on a menu of art tools that include sculpy, graphite pencils, and some nice sable brushes. :D

jasonwestmas
07-28-2016, 09:26 AM
To some degree I buy that, Jason, sure. I consider traditional drawing (and even sculpting) skills to be a prerequisite before you grab a keyboard and Wacom. I'll grant computerized tools do speed up lots of workflows (tweening, anyone?) but as a self-professed old fart I see digital art tools as just one flavor on a menu of art tools that include sculpy, graphite pencils, and some nice sable brushes. :D

Right, I would agree that there are kids out there that can grab a piece of software and just go to town on it and learn the fundamentals that way. That is kinda why I recommended picking up an application LIKE (doesn't have to be) Zbrush. . .or 3DCoat. Those programs and others ( Mischief, Painter, Adobe Animate etc.) have developed enough to where they can be adopted and "messed around with" much earlier than graphics software used to be. Plus computers are much, much faster now so they can keep up with our messy and less efficient imaginations.

In the strictest sense however, no, you do not need digital tools to teach the fundamentals of design, structure and aesthetics.

I used to think that just using 3D tools were enough to concept an idea out. It is enough but is much slower that way. BUT throwing in sketching and painting inside of photoshop along with 3D model renders really does speed things up. They all kind of rely on each other to get things done to satisfaction quicker.

Spinland
07-28-2016, 09:27 AM
Fully agreed.

probiner
07-28-2016, 09:53 AM
Blender. Done.
If she ends up being a
professional character artist: Zbrush
animator: Maya
Effects: Houdini

Cheers

Spinland
07-28-2016, 10:04 AM
Blender. Done.
If she ends up being a
professional character artist: Zbrush
animator: Maya
Effects: Houdini

Cheers

We need a mike drop emoji here. ;D

Spinland
07-28-2016, 10:52 AM
Heh. Since this has become essentially a thread about philosophy I decided I'd meander down that trail and maybe trip into a fun rabbit hole. I'm waiting at the local brew pub for a client who's running late so I'm both bored and buzzed. ;D

As an engineering undergrad student one of the silly things I did to myself was to tack over 20 hours of electrical engineering to the major I already had to take for scholarship reasons. I was young, bulletproof, and wanted to LEARN ALL THE THINGS. Ohio State University boasts one of the premiere EE departments in the country, I was getting a free ride, so why the hell not?

So, why that's relevant. One of the concepts one picks up in EE is Thévenin's theorem. To summarize: any tractable circuit, no matter how complex, can ultimately be reduced to a single resistance and a single voltage source. There is potentially some calculus involved to calculate those two values, but the result is well worth the effort: you can now plug a trivially simple circuit abstraction into a complex master design and that abstraction will behave precisely as the original circuit would. In the early days of computer simulation the value of that complexity savings can not be over-estimated.

So, on to art. One of my philosophical bents (and one which I sometimes argue in actual philosophy circles) is my contention that any tractable life situation can be similarly abstracted. Work with me here: it's a metaphor.

When I am tackling a new learning curve, or essentially any life situation that presents such, I look for the 36,000 foot (the altitude we usually flew in electronic warfare missions in the desert) level of abstraction; the "conceptual Thévenin" of the subject. Once I feel I grok where the black box fits in the big picture I then feel ready to start digging down into the devil in the details.

That's from whence my posts in this thread have come: I talk about how music can be distilled to just notes on a scale, how the most complex 3D build boils down to points and polygons. When I am conceptualizing a topic that's where I start. When I am giving talks to rooms full of school kids at career days and the like I am about the Thévenin: why? What do you want to accomplish? What are your aims and goals? What hole in your psyche is your wanting to get into CGI going to fill?

If they cannot answer those questions then I contend they are not ready for comparatively minor issues like what modeling and animation packages are current and hot. Unless and until they make that black box fit into the larger circuit of their life plan I discourage spending money on what are only tools to achieve an end.

jasonwestmas
07-28-2016, 11:18 AM
Sometimes I do forget this but my core reasons for getting into CG is to create visual story telling that can't be captured with just a video camera. This is in fact a huge endeavor but it can be reduced down to something more simple if we let it. Plus it's not wise to do all this on your own. It's good to get lots of help.

It's easy for me to get lost in the tools and technical processes. That is why I believe I must pick the right tools for the current step of the pipeline. I must establish a context for the current stage of development I am in. Pre-production and design is much different than actual production and post, for example. I don't think many people think about that which is why I brought it up. I see a lot of arguments about what tools to use but those kind of disagreements usually arise because the people disputing are thinking about very different forms of contextual workflows without being aware of it.

Spinland
07-28-2016, 11:30 AM
And Jason merits another mike drop: well said, sir. :yoda:

Okay, that was conceit: I am no Yoda. ;D

Tools do matter, that I dispute in no wise. I would not try to paint scales on a dragon painting using a 5" exterior wall brush. That being said, the decision what diameter brush to employ is, to me, a triviality and not worth wasting time pondering. It's a brush, just use the one that fits the width of the line you want. Get that g%$d&$# dragon on the canvas before its need to break free of your mind's eye consumes your day.

That's kind of part and parcel to my impatience with some of the stuff being said here. No, I won't slam anyone for having differing perspectives, but when I chime in that's the sheet of music I'm singing from.

Have I mixed enough metaphors yet? I have more if you want. :santa:

jasonwestmas
07-28-2016, 11:33 AM
Metaphor santa in the house!! :D

Spinland
07-28-2016, 11:41 AM
Ho, Ho, Effing Ho!

jeric_synergy
07-28-2016, 11:47 AM
The recent posts where the animator integrated miniature sets w/LW characters shows the wisdom of learning the CRAFT of animation, no matter if you're using papier mache or have hijacked James Cameron's studio.

The overriding skill, to me is: the ability to keep grinding away at the task.

Spinland
07-28-2016, 11:51 AM
YES! Yes! Oh, my: you guys are almost making me do a solo Wave here in my bar seat. My fellow patrons thank you for my forbearance.

This thread is now coursing through my veins (along with a pint of something really interesting from The Founders brewery). Art, beeyotches.

This. This is why I love this forum (apart from sometimes the archives bailing my silly *** out of a jam). We live on the moving wave's crest of where art meets technology and no widow maker at Maui can deliver as big a rush when you ride it. LW has a place at the table, and always will, so long as WE THE ARTISTS keep flying the flag. In the end it's on us.

gamedesign1
07-28-2016, 04:24 PM
Thanks everyone for all your thoughts :) You all make very valid points.
What I have decided to do is teach her Blender (and occasionally bits of Lightwave to show how some packages handle things a bit differently), so I have been spending a lot of time getting more clued up on it :) It has actually been really easy to get use to it, which is great :) There is a big community for Blender which I think will be very helpful. Plus I think Blender has a very good set of most tools, like Sculpting, Modelling, Painting, etc, so she will be able to get to grips with the principles of most things without leaving the one application.

As she learns more and gets to grips with the principles I will then show her all the options regarding software and explain their strengths and weaknesses. This way as she gets better she will be able to make her own choice on which software works best for her. I will of course also explain about the most popular software if she wants to join an existing team at a company.

Thanks again guys :) Please feel free to say if you think I am doing the wrong thing and I will definitely read your comments.

gamedesign1
07-28-2016, 04:51 PM
Is there a way of stopping Blender from activating a tool when the tool is selected from its menu? For example lets say I want to extrude. By default it seems to start extruding once I select the tool. Most other 3D software will only activate the tool once you click and drag in the viewport. I hope this makes sense :)

prometheus
07-28-2016, 05:01 PM
Thanks everyone for all your thoughts :) You all make very valid points.
What I have decided to do is teach her Blender (and occasionally bits of Lightwave to show how some packages handle things a bit differently), so I have been spending a lot of time getting more clued up on it :) It has actually been really easy to get use to it, which is great :) There is a big community for Blender which I think will be very helpful. Plus I think Blender has a very good set of most tools, like Sculpting, Modelling, Painting, etc, so she will be able to get to grips with the principles of most things without leaving the one application.

As she learns more and gets to grips with the principles I will then show her all the options regarding software and explain their strengths and weaknesses. This way as she gets better she will be able to make her own choice on which software works best for her. I will of course also explain about the most popular software if she wants to join an existing team at a company.

Thanks again guys :) Please feel free to say if you think I am doing the wrong thing and I will definitely read your comments.

i donīt see anything wrong with that..seems like a decent choice here, but as surrealist and I also mentioned..have chat with here to discover firstly why she wanted to enter 3d and modeling and what is of her interest, what she wants to be able to do.

you could write down the major apps, and quick search a bit yourself about them, make some notes and then brief here about what the apps does, if you happen to talk about houdini and you say..this is one of the most advanced and used 3d software for avanced break, particle and fire effects etc..and she goes, mehh...I donīt want to do that, I want to model figures, or models ..thenyou can always guide direct back to something more suitable for that.
But I reckon it seems you may have already chipped out what your niece is interested of.

I myself will also start using blender more, I hade some small showcase of mixing lightwave and blender by extracting edges and then make those edges to meshes, a method that you can use to fast construct skeleton edges of a figure instead of just bevel and extrude something from scratch, you really donīt need lightwave for that though, but can add vertices directly in blender then extend and in zymmetry mode you can get limbs correct, this skin modifier works on top of edges so you edit those and the skin mesh follows, once you hare happy with the base figure, you must apply the skin modifier then enter sculpt mode if you intend to sculpt on it.
This process is similar to using zbrush Zsphereīs and then make a mesh with adaptive skin, but you get this for free and it is quite nice and powerful too.

Modeling is so much more than just figures and sculpting though, so introducing creation of cups, lamps, a simple house, glass, spoon, fork is probably a good idea to get started on as well.

I might post some more blender stuff later, though I am practically newbie as well with that.

Lightwave-blender skin modifier playlist..
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdaQ-nxd0g2dM40IQ-J3c1Or4Cm6i1t8F

prometheus
07-28-2016, 05:04 PM
Is there a way of stopping Blender from activating a tool when the tool is selected from its menu? For example lets say I want to extrude. By default it seems to start extruding once I select the tool. Most other 3D software will only activate the tool once you click and drag in the viewport. I hope this makes sense :)

It doesnīt over here..must be some accidental setting, did you use "e" shortcut for extrude, and did you extrud while in edit mode and had a selected face?
you could fast click e or use the buttons in the transform menu, but just hit enter and the menu for extrude region and move will show up in the left bottom corner and you should be able to adjust any move or extrude you happened to make.

and important to note that z-axis is up and down, not as with lightwave which uses Y coordinates for that.

Surrealist.
07-29-2016, 05:57 AM
priority is established..why would anyone argue about that, if that is the only thing to consider however? as priority yes...but why would that exclude further considerations and weigh that in?

Because they don't factor in. That is why. You are over thinking it. And adding way more into it on your own than what I have said.

If a young relative came to me and said that they wanted to learn something like say, programing, which I have no clue about. But for some reason his/her parent knew I was in computers and figured I was the best person to ask, then here is how I would handle it.

I would first tell them I don't really know the first thing about programing. But because I have been around the forums for 10+ years and involved in software on the technical side, I have a good idea about what languages are out there. And somewhat of an idea about how much work is involved and a pretty good idea about where he/she could find resources. And I would suggest that he/she get training from a professional source. If they came back and said they trust me and want me to help, I would say, fine.

And here is how I would do it.

I would help them set up some kind of basic syllabus. Find some online training courses or books at the library or store etc. And I would supervise the child in a general way. Not with teaching lines of code, or various other particulars, but because of the fact that I have quite a lot of experience studying things, I would be able to help her work backwards from her problems.

For example, uncle I am really stuck here and I am confused.

OK tell me where was the last time you were doing well? Where was the last time you understood everything?

Well back at ....so and so

OK so what happened right after that? Was there a term or concept or something you did not understand?

Oh,,, yes I did not understand ....bla bla...

OK so lets get that sorted shall we?

Good. Now lets use google and see if we can find the answer to that?

And other options and so on to get it sorted.

Now, move on the the part where you were confused and lets sort that out.

Likely it will clear up the later confusion. If not then I would continue to help find resources and other solutions to the problem/

And using the exact techniques I use to study myself, I would help him/ her to take logical steps to solve problems.

And that is all without even knowing how to compose a single line of code. The text books or videos will do that.

And so now we are talking about something that is related. 3D

Being there to supervise and be a guide in a general way for a program I did not know would not be as good as if I knew it. But likely a lot of the issues are the same. And I find this true in my own work in the studio. I don't know anything about 3D Max. But an artist can come to me with an issue and I can know what it is they should be looking for and help them find it. I have done that on more than one occasion.

But helping in that way would be much better than trying to force it into what I am expert in or not or even allowing that to be a consideration as to what to teach.

That is what I think is best for the kid, in a situation where they insisted on coming to me for help even if what I was expert in was not in their best interest.

Surrealist.
07-29-2016, 06:02 AM
Thanks everyone for all your thoughts :) You all make very valid points.
What I have decided to do is teach her Blender (and occasionally bits of Lightwave to show how some packages handle things a bit differently), so I have been spending a lot of time getting more clued up on it :) It has actually been really easy to get use to it, which is great :) There is a big community for Blender which I think will be very helpful. Plus I think Blender has a very good set of most tools, like Sculpting, Modelling, Painting, etc, so she will be able to get to grips with the principles of most things without leaving the one application.

As she learns more and gets to grips with the principles I will then show her all the options regarding software and explain their strengths and weaknesses. This way as she gets better she will be able to make her own choice on which software works best for her. I will of course also explain about the most popular software if she wants to join an existing team at a company.

Thanks again guys :) Please feel free to say if you think I am doing the wrong thing and I will definitely read your comments.

Right exactly on point. Keep going in exactly that direction. :)

Surrealist.
07-29-2016, 06:06 AM
Is there a way of stopping Blender from activating a tool when the tool is selected from its menu? For example lets say I want to extrude. By default it seems to start extruding once I select the tool. Most other 3D software will only activate the tool once you click and drag in the viewport. I hope this makes sense :)

You might want to take this up on the Blender forums.

But as far as I know this is a command. It is like the e tool in Modeler. But then it also starts extruding on the normal at the same time. Or you can right click and drop the tool and go to a translation tool from there.

gamedesign1
07-29-2016, 06:08 AM
You might want to take this up on the Blender forums.

But as far as I know this is a command. It is like the e tool in Modeler. But then it also starts extruding on the normal at the same time. Or you can right click and drop the tool and go to a translation tool from there.
Thanks :)

wesleycorgi
07-29-2016, 06:53 AM
What I have decided to do is teach her Blender (and occasionally bits of Lightwave to show how some packages handle things a bit differently), so I have been spending a lot of time getting more clued up on it :) It has actually been really easy to get use to it, which is great :) There is a big community for Blender which I think will be very helpful. Plus I think Blender has a very good set of most tools, like Sculpting, Modelling, Painting, etc, so she will be able to get to grips with the principles of most things without leaving the one application.

if you already haven't, check out Bugzilla on Youtube. I believe he is a former LWaver who moved to Blender: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bmecoZ8_Ok

prometheus
07-29-2016, 07:32 AM
Because they don't factor in. That is why. You are over thinking it. And adding way more into it on your own than what I have said.


Excuse me...I am overthinking? with factors that doesnīt factor in? that is pure nonsense,
why am I overthinking it and why do those factors not count in?
I actually think you yourself overthink it all, with something that is more adaptable from a coders point of view And suspecting the current age of the subject for training..how do you know the age? and then adapt proper pedagogical guidelines for that and how come your guidelines here then should fit that?
, you are actually ruling out optional resources that is available for them, unless she hardly canīt form sentences, what I mentioned about the options and briefing surely must be of consideration, I do not see why you discard it with..they donīt factor in, to me itīs a bit of contradiction as well if you applause his choice he recently did with blender, when the fact is he counted those factors in.



But as far as I know this is a command. It is like the e tool in Modeler. But then it also starts extruding on the normal at the same time. Or you can right click and drop the tool and go to a translation tool from there.

Richard Culver


I already mentioned that..

prometheus
07-29-2016, 09:56 AM
Andrew Price/Blender Guru is also valuable...
https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewPPrice/videos

Surrealist.
07-29-2016, 08:40 PM
Excuse me...I am overthinking? with factors that doesnīt factor in? that is pure nonsense,
why am I overthinking it and why do those factors not count in?
I actually think you yourself overthink it all, with something that is more adaptable from a coders point of view And suspecting the current age of the subject for training..how do you know the age? and then adapt proper pedagogical guidelines for that and how come your guidelines here then should fit that?
, you are actually ruling out optional resources that is available for them, unless she hardly canīt form sentences, what I mentioned about the options and briefing surely must be of consideration, I do not see why you discard it with..they donīt factor in, to me itīs a bit of contradiction as well if you applause his choice he recently did with blender, when the fact is he counted those factors in.

Yes Michael. He took pretty much most of my advice. So I applauded him.

I can't see how I contradicted myself. But if you have any questions about specific points I made, I am happy to answer you and that might clear it up.

And about the Blender comment. Yeah that can be annoying. I did not mean to state something you said already. I actually did not read all of what you said about it. So yeah. You did mention that and usually I try to acknowledge those things, I just missed it this time. So sorry. :)

prometheus
07-29-2016, 10:01 PM
Yes Michael. He took pretty much most of my advice. So I applauded him.

I can't see how I contradicted myself. But if you have any questions about specific points I made, I am happy to answer you and that might clear it up.

And about the Blender comment. Yeah that can be annoying. I did not mean to state something you said already. I actually did not read all of what you said about it. So yeah. You did mention that and usually I try to acknowledge those things, I just missed it this time. So sorry. :)


Regarding blender note already made..that was just me being obnoxious. Since you got a thanks for it ..and I didn't..but I got I'm sorry from you..haha:D

Regarding the other things...I find it a bit pointless to go in deeper with that...since we seem to agree on priority..but may put other values on other factors...With different opinions
On pedagogic initiation...I don't think
It would be that easy to conclude
To something agreeable.
Cheers.

Surrealist.
07-29-2016, 11:54 PM
lol yeah. Anyway, points got covered well, agreed on or not by you and I (or maybe we agree and it is just getting lost in translation ) and it seems like he is well on his way to a solution, so it is all good :)

gamedesign1
07-30-2016, 05:11 AM
Thanks to everyone for all your advice, everyone has made some great points. Sorry if I missed anyone's comments :)

prometheus
07-30-2016, 11:15 AM
Thanks to everyone for all your advice, everyone has made some great points. Sorry if I missed anyone's comments :)

That is to be expected, so much information you know :)
I donīt know how old your niece is or how itīs going? but it would just be interesting to get a grasp on what she likes in the 3d world, and what she is fascinated about or how she picks it all up.

It can surely be a bit intimidating if someone puts all the complexity in of a 3d program in front of someone, and they think..a 3d and movies games ..I wanīt to do that, but when confronted with the fact that it can be a bit daunting and you may actually have to push points around..instead of that create a figure button, they could just loose interest.

Then again...there is those create figure buttons as well..for blender, though it doesnīt help with the fundamental understanding, there was a thread about this blender figure addon, but I think it was lost in the forum crash...
http://www.manuelbastioni.com/release_note_130.php

create a figure plugin is ultimatly bound by itīs rules, understanding the quantum parts of 3d and start with points to push and go wherever you wanīt you to go, that may enable you to push those boundaries further ..if you do know how and the process may be slower ofcourse.

I like the bastioni plugin..though it lacks texture maps..at least the last time I checked. (edited...I think they recently added skin shaders and textures, but I have to install a newer version I think)

jeric_synergy
07-30-2016, 01:04 PM
Thanks to everyone for all your advice, everyone has made some great points. Sorry if I missed anyone's comments :)

For gahdz sake, don't encourage them to restate their case ad nauseum. This thread might never die.

prometheus
07-30-2016, 10:31 PM
To note...If you happen to install the new figure plugin from bastioni ..which I mentioned above, you may get an error if you havenīt unistalled the previous one, I had to remove them in preferences settings, and then alse save settings, and also close and reboot blender, only then I got the install of the ManuelBastioniLAB 1.3.0 working.

Michael

erikals
07-31-2016, 04:20 AM
should I teach her Lightwave if I don't really know where Newtek is going with it?
Because they have gone quiet again about the development of LightWave

yes, LWG going quiet is just a bit unprofessional marketing, nothing more.

do teach her LightWave Modeler, it's the easiest Modeler app to learn.
however, it does need updates, but what app doesn't... :)

prometheus
08-01-2016, 02:52 PM
Though you probably have sorted it out in the case of what to start with..
This might be of interest, but remember that it is also probably quite biased based on the user who wrote it and what that user is/was comfortable with...

HOW TO CHOOSE THE BEST 3D SOFTWARE FOR YOU...
http://jordanpelovitz.com/?p=609

erikals
08-01-2016, 03:08 PM
good link.


but be careful; the last several years have been unkind to Lightwave’s development, and many in the industry fear that it may be on its last legs.
heh, if i received a dollar every time someone wrote that... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

however, it does, once again, bring us to the importance of marketing (ahem, cough-cough... 4+ months since last blog, cough...)

prometheus
08-01-2016, 04:02 PM
good link.


heh, if i received a dollar every time someone wrote that... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

however, it does, once again, bring us to the importance of marketing (ahem, cough-cough... 4+ months since last blog, cough...)

true, unfortunatly with such long time since they communicated, and not haven given any decent release time frame, some users may loose patience..just because of no information and the long times since.. and simply drop of, thatīs definatly not good, hardcore users and those very dependendt on it will probably stick around, but ..but, users dropping of for other various reasons like they may see the new release to not be what they wanted is one thing, or if they was more impressed with something else, but to have users dropping of due to uncertainty or impatience, that factor shouldnīt even be there at all to assist the loss of lw users further, I am not static that is the current status q, but the risc is probably there for it now.

Exclaim
08-01-2016, 09:27 PM
I think he should teach her Lightwave. It does everything, and it is easier to figure out.

jasonwestmas
08-03-2016, 07:40 AM
I think he should teach her Lightwave. It does everything, and it is easier to figure out.

Yah, Lightwave does move polygons around in 3D space and renders them, that is for sure. ;)

samurai_x
08-03-2016, 08:44 AM
There's no free educ or learning version of lightwave. Too bad.

Asticles
08-03-2016, 10:45 AM
So on Lightwave academies all seats are full licenses?

raymondtrace
08-03-2016, 12:37 PM
There's no free educ or learning version of lightwave. Too bad.

After the trial period, LW runs in discovery mode.

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?76225-Lightwave-Discovery-Mode



So on Lightwave academies all seats are full licenses?

There is a discounted academic version for educational institutions and their students (for teaching/learning and non-commercial work). Student identification is required.

https://www.lightwave3d.com/buy-lightwave/ ...although I only speak from experience in the USA. Check for your region.

ActionBob
08-04-2016, 07:40 AM
A little off topic, but.......

I have started to learn a competing / complimentary app and just dropped 200 bucks on a training series.... I have to say that from what I have seen so far, I think it is money well spent. The person seems to be informed, competent and pretty rehearsed! Or, perhaps, it is their time spent in the industry that makes their knowledge shine through. This is a breath of fresh air compared to some 3D coat vids I had bought a few months back ("instructor's" name shall be withheld).

While Lightwave is my first love (since version 3.5 on Amiga), the good quality training vids out there for new people (and even old users like myself) has dwindled considerably. I felt the need to branch out, buckle down and start learning something new (the results of this software are just too amazing to ignore). It was a little overwhelming to see how many training opportunities there were for it. Now the only thing is deciding which professional to learn from, being limited only by my wallet. :-)

-Adrian

prometheus
08-04-2016, 09:55 AM
A little off topic, but.......

I have started to learn a competing / complimentary app and just dropped 200 bucks on a training series.... I have to say that from what I have seen so far, I think it is money well spent. The person seems to be informed, competent and pretty rehearsed! Or, perhaps, it is their time spent in the industry that makes their knowledge shine through. This is a breath of fresh air compared to some 3D coat vids I had bought a few months back ("instructor's" name shall be withheld).

While Lightwave is my first love (since version 3.5 on Amiga), the good quality training vids out there for new people (and even old users like myself) has dwindled considerably. I felt the need to branch out, buckle down and start learning something new (the results of this software are just too amazing to ignore). It was a little overwhelming to see how many training opportunities there were for it. Now the only thing is deciding which professional to learn from, being limited only by my wallet. :-)

-Adrian

Thatīs a bit like discussing a topic that has no topic:D
and how does the results of the software look like? and preferably what software are you talking about?

jeric_synergy
08-04-2016, 10:17 AM
A little off topic, but.......

I have started to learn a competing / complimentary app and just dropped 200 bucks on a training series.... [
Why so coy? If you like a product, just SAY what it is.

ActionBob
08-04-2016, 02:09 PM
Not to be coy... Just don't like touting - "hey, I am getting into this now."

My subscription to Lightwave is current and I will continue to upgrade (show me the software!).

However, that said, I am enjoying some great tutorials on Houdini... It is not nearly as straight forward as LW in some respects, but the power behind all that node networking.. I had, for a long time, been put off by nodes. Mostly, because I was not used to it. However, after having bought other apps like Octane Render, Terragen, The Alegorithmic Suite to name a few, I am compelled to dive more and more into them and I see their power. The procedural stuff in Houdini is off-putting, but mind-bending good at the same time. Also, the availability of good quality training materials has ignited a smoldering ember in me. I found that even while wrapping my head around the new software and interface, I was excited to explore again.

-Adrian

jeric_synergy
08-04-2016, 04:53 PM
Why not "tout"? I'm sure both users and the producer would like to know that there's something good out there.

For instance, I "tout" Rebel Hill, Ryan Roye, and Liberty3D all the time, because A) I appreciate their products and B) think other users might too.

prometheus
08-04-2016, 05:16 PM
Not to be coy... Just don't like touting - "hey, I am getting into this now."

My subscription to Lightwave is current and I will continue to upgrade (show me the software!).

However, that said, I am enjoying some great tutorials on Houdini... It is not nearly as straight forward as LW in some respects, but the power behind all that node networking.. I had, for a long time, been put off by nodes. Mostly, because I was not used to it. However, after having bought other apps like Octane Render, Terragen, The Alegorithmic Suite to name a few, I am compelled to dive more and more into them and I see their power. The procedural stuff in Houdini is off-putting, but mind-bending good at the same time. Also, the availability of good quality training materials has ignited a smoldering ember in me. I found that even while wrapping my head around the new software and interface, I was excited to explore again.

-Adrian

Which reminds me that I need to install the latest apprentice version, tiīs been a while since I fired up houdini, lightwave 2015 is constantly crashing..to the point it is almost a nightmare for me, especially after clearing scenes and trying to load new ones, so blender is mostly on my agenda right now..I still awaits the next Lw release though and will see what that brings in features, performance..And stability.

Though embarking on learning houdini will undoubtly take some time, guess that my approach is fire it up now and then and try it out in various situations, and add to my learning experience and trying to push some thresholds everytime.

Exclaim
08-04-2016, 10:17 PM
I don't know, it's very easy to learn how things work in Lightwave. It has one of the simplest menus. Learning the trade of 3d art and animation is a whole different thing. I reference 3dsmax, Maya, Modo, etc. Tutorials to learn techniques, and I find it easier to perform those techniques in Lightwave. I love 3ds max, but can't imagine paying a subscription for software is good for my wallet.

ActionBob
08-05-2016, 11:56 AM
Lightwave is fantastic and a great value. It is, fast, efficient and fairly straight forward in design and execution. That said (and remember that it is my first love), it needs some serious catching up / updating on some of its features. Sure, plug-ins are great, but a tack-on is a tack-on. A couple of hundred dollars here and there adds up and that all inclusive package starts to get a little pricey and approach the price of other, more modern apps.. I have spent more than my fair share on plug-ins and programs to supplement Lightwave; some I didn't even need, but were purchases simply to support an author of a good tool.

I am looking forward to the next release of LW and glad I'm locked in with very reasonable upgrade pricing. However, promises and potential cannot overshadow some amazing alternatives now. It also never hurts to learn more. :-)

-Adrian

jeric_synergy
08-05-2016, 05:07 PM
Well said!