PDA

View Full Version : What is the best node to....



Snosrap
04-22-2016, 08:12 PM
What is the best node to make a fine wood surface? Any tutorials and examples would be appreciated. I'm trying to get my head around nodes more and I want to make the most realistic wood possible, does anybody have some input in this regard? Thanks.

spherical
04-22-2016, 08:51 PM
We use IFW2. Lots of grain choices... I mean LOTS to infinite. Then you can use the Planks Regional node to do floors and laminates.

133529 133530 133531 133532 133535 133536

Snosrap
04-22-2016, 09:03 PM
Thanks, but I'm not looking for procedurals. I have access to hundreds of tiled wood image patterns and of course I can slap those on real easy, but I need to make them come alive like the real sample swatches we I have. That's what I'm struggling with - how to make them pop. I've tried the car paint node thinking that their are layers of lacquers and various coatings on the wood, but I'm just not getting anywhere.

spherical
04-22-2016, 10:28 PM
What is the best node to make a fine wood surface?

You asked for a node to make wood. Didn't say that you wanted to only image map. IFW2 probably isn't for Big Business, but it works great for our podunk operation. :) Besides, if procedurals get the job done, no doubt with far more variation than a tiled image; once you get into "ringiness" and "trunk wobble", etc., what's not to like; unless you're a purist and shun stuff that isn't "real"? If it looks real to the potential customer, who cares? Don't tell them and they won't know.

BTW, I'm preparing a couple of extra renders specifically for you to see what's possible. They'll be added to my original reply if they're finished before the edit post window times out. Perhaps someone else will benefit.

prometheus
04-23-2016, 06:19 AM
Unless working with the actual texture with nodes, not sure nodes is what to use just for the sake of it, wouldnīt it be enough with good reflection settings? and then throw in a fast fresnel shader then tweak minimum glance angle with vpr on till desired reflections are there.

Then while still in vpr mode, go to environment tab and tweak reflection blur.
The rest is up to whatever is in the scene to reflect and the actual lighting, and a careful balance to make the reflections blur with just the right amount of blur, I would guess if the floor is high polished or laquered, it should have lesser reflection blur, and more worn out..more blur.

Ofcourse..bump, a proper setting of that...perhaps push the bump up quite a bit too.

Michael

prometheus
04-23-2016, 06:35 AM
You may also want to check arroway wood texture, at least see how their samples look like and what types of maps, there is some demo descriptions on where to put the maps, how much glossiness etc..and what maps are used, mostly diffuse, spec, and bump maps...
https://www.arroway-textures.ch/en/textures/wood-041

I think it will start to pop out..once you got the tiny streak of reflections that is generated by the reflection map, so you would have to process the texture map to extract that out I think, and combined with the bumps that should do it.
It may also work by simply clone instance the wood texture in image editor, desaturate it in the editing tab and use that in the reflection channel, try invert the texture if the reflection seems odd...this sort of boost the reflection...
or add a bump gradient in the reflection channel.

RebelHill
04-23-2016, 06:56 AM
If you want to do it from shaders, try something like minneart for diffuse, cook torrence for spec (if ur after more worn spec), or blinn for shinier. You can give the diffuse and spec different normal inputs this way, taht can help you get some of that layered appearance. Else, delta or sigma can be good options for materials.

Snosrap
04-23-2016, 08:05 AM
You asked for a node to make wood. Didn't say that you wanted to only image map. IFW2 probably isn't for Big Business, but it works great for our podunk operation. :) Besides, if procedurals get the job done, no doubt with far more variation than a tiled image; once you get into "ringiness" and "trunk wobble", etc., what's not to like; unless you're a purist and shun stuff that isn't "real"? If it looks real to the potential customer, who cares? Don't tell them and they won't know.

BTW, I'm preparing a couple of extra renders specifically for you to see what's possible. They'll be added to my original reply if they're finished before the edit post window times out. Perhaps someone else will benefit. Yes - sorry spherical I should have been more specific. :) Nice samples BTW, lots of pop!


Unless working with the actual texture with nodes, not sure nodes is what to use just for the sake of it, wouldnīt it be enough with good reflection settings? and then throw in a fast fresnel shader then tweak minimum glance angle with vpr on till desired reflections are there.

Then while still in vpr mode, go to environment tab and tweak reflection blur.
The rest is up to whatever is in the scene to reflect and the actual lighting, and a careful balance to make the reflections blur with just the right amount of blur, I would guess if the floor is high polished or laquered, it should have lesser reflection blur, and more worn out..more blur.

Ofcourse..bump, a proper setting of that...perhaps push the bump up quite a bit too.

Michael

I was thinking a "Material" node of some sort would get me a more realistic surface. Part of the problem is that I'm trying to match existing samples - that's hard! :)


You may also want to check arroway wood texture, at least see how their samples look like and what types of maps, their is demo descriptions on where to put the maps, how much glossiness etc..and what maps are used, mostly diffuse, spec, and bump maps...
https://www.arroway-textures.ch/en/textures/wood-041

I think it will start to pop out..once you got the tiny streak of reflections that is generated by the reflection map, so you would have to process the texture map to extract that out I think, and combined with the bumps that should do it.
It may also work by simply clone instance the wood texture in image editor, desaturate it in the editing tab and use that in the reflection channel, try invert the texture if the reflection seems odd...this sort of boost the reflection...
or add a bump gradient in the reflection channel.

Thanks, I'll study those!


If you want to do it from shaders, try something like minneart for diffuse, cook torrence for spec (if ur after more worn spec), or blinn for shinier. You can give the diffuse and spec different normal inputs this way, taht can help you get some of that layered appearance. Else, delta or sigma can be good options for materials.

Thanks RebelHill, I hadn't thought of different shaders.


Thanks everybody for your input - lots to experiment with!

prometheus
04-23-2016, 08:11 AM
Snostrap...if you can? it would be nice to see the real photo samples, or you may not have taken photos of them?

Not sure exactly how much better it would look with node materials or the shaders in nodes, if what RebelHill points to..would mean a much more realistic energy conserving in much better ways than just slapping on a fresnel shader? then that is worth looking in too, and I will have to take a look at that more closer when I get the time, those shaders might be more valuable for metal than for a glossy wood surface perhaps?


Edited...And we got the darktree simbiont wood shaders...havenīt installed it on 2015, but I recall them as being quite good, a bit quirky to install though..but free, no textures only procedurals with some parameters to change...

http://www.darksim.com/Repository/tx_Wood/

http://www.darksim.com/html/simbiontlw.html

prometheus
04-23-2016, 08:16 AM
If you want to do it from shaders, try something like minneart for diffuse, cook torrence for spec (if ur after more worn spec), or blinn for shinier. You can give the diffuse and spec different normal inputs this way, taht can help you get some of that layered appearance. Else, delta or sigma can be good options for materials.

yeah.and you get to play with the latest stuff, you lucky B :)

prometheus
04-23-2016, 10:10 AM
Must add a WARNING..

I could add the simbiont shaders and work with them, could do so for a while and tweaking, then I saved out the scene and the object, close lightwave, restart, load the recent scene again, activate vpr..open surface tab..and crash balaboom, this wasnīt just instability for 2015, it happens the same way with 11.6.2..so you may take extra causion when using these, if I canīt find out what is causing it..that is sad since I really love some of those simbiont shaders.

Sensei
04-23-2016, 11:01 AM
Did you see TrueArt LightWave 3D How To Randomize Floor Tiles Full HD video tutorial ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okbhuG0_9XA

spherical
04-23-2016, 03:53 PM
Then while still in vpr mode, go to environment tab and tweak reflection blur.

This may have changed in more recent versions, but the Reflection Blur in the Surface Editor used to be painfully slow. RB in Material and Car Paint nodes is way faster and can be interpolated.

djwaterman
04-24-2016, 05:48 AM
There are my wood presets at 3DXYZ, one uses the delta node and the other uses the carpaint node. Might be a good starting point for you, if you come up with an even better solution from there I would encourage you to upload it to 3DXYZ as currently it seems like my two are the only wood presets in the library.

http://3dxyz.pro/category/wood/

Just so you know, delta material is dependent on using GI, if you're not using GI then don't use delta cos it wont show up, the car paint node isn't GI dependent. I'm also using the Schlicks approximation node on these so download that if you don't already got it.

You will have to use your wood tile samples and do what you gotta do to create the various maps from them, bump, spec and so on, that will be how you get this to work.

Don't assume these are the last word in a node solution for wood, I've learn't a lot since and I would redesign these today, but they are an okay starting point. Might be worth your while to head over to the Kray site and look up some of the node surface shaders people are working on, there is some on going discussions in their forum with Kray and native LW shader solutions being refined over time and volunteered. They are quite complicated so I have steered clear but you should take a look.

djwaterman
04-24-2016, 09:08 AM
I took my own advice and headed over to the Kray site and what do you know, someone has posted up a node shader test with wood. I haven't downloaded it yet to see what's going on but here's a link.

http://www.kraytracing.com/joomla/forum/index.php?f=4&t=4704&rb_v=viewtopic&start=15

djwaterman
04-24-2016, 09:22 AM
It's all quite mysteriously complex, click on the compound node and it's more so. This is where I start to get suspicious of super complex nodes, I'm sure they are wonderful but realistically most artists aren't going to want to untangle that network.

prometheus
04-24-2016, 10:21 AM
It's all quite mysteriously complex, click on the compound node and it's more so. This is where I start to get suspicious of super complex nodes, I'm sure they are wonderful but realistically most artists aren't going to want to untangle that network.

If I would dare to call my self an artist, not me anyway.
Well I sure need to delve deeper in to nodes, I donīt like it..but that state of mind is something that probably is dynamic ..and in time I will learn to use it as my fath....(wait, thatīs another story) :D

Itīs a bit ironic how software coders, math specialist have been designing software for artist to use and do so with more ease, but with all this node magic it seems to be going the other way around again, almost to the point that I wonder if I simply should study math in some extreme way, then code my own software to perform for me as I want...huh, that would take some time and when you in retrospect look at the time it took many years ago with the creater of lightwave, I think I will stay away from those thoughts.

All things are things that can be explained with maths though, as RebelHill says and some others :) it sure helps to know some, but unfortunatly I am reluctant to engage in it to that level I might need.

Once you know the components and what makes the clock tick, you can pretty much design things as you want, that is valuable ofcourse.
I will have to take some time and go through RebelHills vids too.

about the compound node, yeah...I just donīt like how that is constructed, I could actually feel a bit at home with houdini nodes, jumping in and out, deactivate/bypass etc...but compound node workflow...not for me.
Michael

jeric_synergy
04-24-2016, 10:47 AM
It's all quite mysteriously complex, click on the compound node and it's more so. This is where I start to get suspicious of super complex nodes, I'm sure they are wonderful but realistically most artists aren't going to want to untangle that network.
Reverse engineering nodes, and animations in general, is excruciating. LW doesn't make it easier with it's lack of indication in any central location of all the dependencies and modifiers (in sharp contrast to C4D).

One LHF feature that might help, if the original animator (OA!) took advantage of it, would be "toggleable aliases for nodes". Currently we can RENAME nodes, but it's semi-permanent and effaces the nodes' original names. Renaming is great to define a node's function in a sprawling network, but it often would be nice to see the original name when playing "CSI: Node Editor". Some key that you could hold down to reveal the nodes' original names temporarily would be welcome.

prometheus
04-24-2016, 11:54 AM
This may have changed in more recent versions, but the Reflection Blur in the Surface Editor used to be painfully slow. RB in Material and Car Paint nodes is way faster and can be interpolated.



Havenīt found that to be so much "painfully slow" not in lw 11.6 or 2015, works decently to preview in vpr, and final render, depends on how much samples in the shading tab you need..you may be right about it though in terms of high quality and resolution images, at that point it may strike a level of very long render times.

Me testing a simple 640x480 res image doesnīt do it justice to judge the slowness, with default settings and shading sample set at 4, it took around 12.7 seconds for me with monte carlo radiosity and one area light, importance sample on too, low light samples at 1, and with reflection blur 16.3 seconds i7 960 dual core 3,2Ghz I also turned off threaded mesh evaluation so that will reduce a second or so.
12 Ram

Turning off importance sampling..then even faster rendering with reflection blur at 14.6 seconds, without 10,8..
Ofcourse this was just a simple low res image and not much aliasing ..so it would increase more when upping it all.

I will check out on the other Node materials and see what gives though..

spherical
04-24-2016, 02:04 PM
My previous experience with the original Reflection Blur was in 9.x, so a lot has probably changed in that area. Used to just bring the machine to a near halt while it calculated. Iterating the settings took forever and I usually settled for that which looked moderately acceptable. When the node advanced tabs showed up and included interpolation for both reflection and, if a transparent, refraction blur, I jumped on it.